libera/##covid-19/ Friday, 2020-02-21

BrainstormNew from Google News at 01:36: Coronavirus: Ukraine protesters attack buses carrying China evacuees - BBC News: Coronavirus: Ukraine protesters attack buses carrying China evacuees BBC News Ukraine: violent clashes as locals hurl stones at coronavirus evacuees' bus The Guardian Ukrainians Hurl Stones at China Evacuees En Route to Quarantine Amid [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/fotrFP03:42
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 04:49: /u/BlatantConservative: Imgur: The magic of the Internet — from Google News at 04:49: Why Did the Coronavirus Outbreak Start in China? - The New York Times → https://is.gd/WWQVJ406:19
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 06:38: /u/BlatantConservative: CNN Breaking News su Twitter: "Eleven Americans who were evacuated from a cruise ship in Japan tested positive for coronavirus in Omaha, Nebraska, the hospital says https://t.co/R3FhG5Vezz… https://t.co/3xQH7c5x6A" [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/u6WzdC08:13
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 08:14: /u/hasharin: Coronavirus on G20 agenda as China reports uptick in cases | Financial Post — from Google News at 08:14: Why Did the Coronavirus Outbreak Start in China? - The New York Times → https://is.gd/9eLQnq09:17
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 08:19: /u/hasharin: China says coronavirus vaccine trials to start around late April, East Asia News & Top Stories - The Straits Times — from Google News at 08:19: Why Did the Coronavirus Outbreak Start in China? - The New York Times → https://is.gd/e5BUMg09:24
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 08:30: /u/BlatantConservative: First case of domestic transmission in Italy, bringing the national total to 5. — from Google News at 08:30: Why Did the Coronavirus Outbreak Start in China? - The New York Times → https://is.gd/by58as09:32
BrainstormNew from Google News at 08:35: (news): China coronavirus outbreak: All the latest updates - Al Jazeera English — from Google News at 08:35: Why Did the Coronavirus Outbreak Start in China? - The New York Times → https://is.gd/DY3BAt09:53
BrainstormNew from Google News at 12:23: Coronavirus Live Updates: South Korea Reports Second Death as Virus Cases Surge - The New York Times: Coronavirus Live Updates: South Korea Reports Second Death as Virus Cases Surge The New York Times Novel coronavirus deaths top 2,200 as number of new cases in China rises again CNN Coronavirus live updates: Outbreak in [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Jj1UKC13:28
LjLcontingo, Lombardy has 3 confirmed and another 3 "strongly suspect" cases, and three towns have been put under "suggested quarantine". at least two of these cases are known to have met hundreds of people from sporting events and working in a big store... i'm unclear on whether the origin of these infections is known13:35
contingois Lombardy a town as well as a region?13:37
LjLno, it's just a region13:37
LjLthe cases are in those three towns13:38
LjL%distance Casalpusterlengo to Milan13:38
BrainstormAttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'address' (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/modules/where.py", line 447, in __init__)13:38
LjLyeah ok13:38
contingothe Lombardy poplars are very well known here13:39
contingomaybe the trees will filter out the virus13:39
LjLlikely13:40
LjLand they're also saying cases in China are going up again, and South Korean cases are growing exponentially13:41
LjLcontingo, i guess i understand your statement that "in the west" only people who just need to have something to fret about are fretting about the virus... but i feel that's more because we can't personally do much of anything about it, than because it's not an actual threat of important proportions13:50
LjLalso on the other hand we should be able to do something *as a country*, instead it was all "no worries everyone, it's well under control here"... until it isn't, and it was pretty obvious it wouldn't be13:51
LjLif we can't build multiple hospitals in a week like china did (and we can't), then maybe at least let's start before it's huge13:51
LjLmefistofeles, if you want a different pastebin please point me to one... aside from pastebin.com which is all captchas, i'm not actually finding many decent-looking ones by just googling it as i'd have expected13:56
contingowhat I said was mostly about the utility of the emotional and psychological aspects of fretfulness. one can equally take precautions, stay objectively informed, reflect on and promote arguments about protocols at community, national, international levels, with or without personally experiencing an emotional state of fear14:01
LjLcontingo, you say that a bit like fear is something that can be switched on or off at will though. to me it's more like some people are wired to eschew fear when it doesn't serve a purpose (which in modern society is probably many cases, unlike perhaps when we were hunters and gatherers), others aren't.14:10
LjLanyway i see https://multimedia.scmp.com/infographics/news/china/article/3047038/wuhan-virus/index.html has renovated its fancy graphs and still wins on the fancy graphness14:11
contingoif I or a loved one are gasping our last breaths from the virus, deep-wired fear and distress you can't turn off are probably unavoidable, but it would be a comfort to know that until that point, I enjoyed life (while advocating for things I cared about effectively)14:12
contingoand to that extent I am definitely saying some forms of fear can be minimized through choice14:13
contingowell, for a lot of people14:14
contingoso conversely some people are wired to experience more fear when it doesn't serve much purpose14:16
LjLcontingo, so do you feel you could choose to feel scared as hell from now on if you just wanted to? by which obviously i don't mean just adopting the behaviors of a scared person in a "mimicking" way, but actually feeling intense fear14:16
contingono, I'm not claiming it's a two-way process. the emotion of fear pops up and then for some people, the rational brain can examine it and over time apply different behavioural responses and thought process to it that gradually modify the level of fear experienced14:18
contingoalthough yeah if i built something to electrically shocked myself every time my eyes scanned the word coronavirus and intentionally avoided reasoning about the resulting effects of that, maybe I could go the other way14:19
contingoit's still my clear observation that my friends who are generally compulsive worriers are in an emotional state of fear about the virus, and my friends who aren't aren't, but both groups are roughly equal in terms of risk, informedness, and advocacy14:24
LjLfair, but i am not sure i see what makes you believe it's actually a choice for both groups, unless perhaps it was very difficult to you (and "your" group) to shake away the fear, and so you only succeeded through choicey stubborn perseverance14:25
contingoI don't recall if the issue of choice was at all implicit in what I originally wrote a few days ago14:29
contingobut seeing emotional states responses as modifiable through "choicey stubborn perseverance" seems to be a central goal of many different schools of therapy, and of reading lots of Stoic philosophy literature, taking heed of the zen aphorisms of the likes of moocow etc. etc.14:31
contingoall of which I have done, and others have done14:31
contingosome people are more amenable to change than others14:32
contingoyou can also medicate it14:34
contingoI do my best rainforest conservation advocacy on etizolam14:35
LjLbest rationalization i've figured out so far is that since face masks and all that are all out of stock, after all it'd be better to get this virus sooner rather than later, when the healthcare system is still functioning. so this way i feel less of an urge to fret about not getting it.14:37
contingoapparently botox to freeze your frown muscles also results in happier feelings about everything!14:41
LjLcontingo, that sounds similar to the technique of smiling even when you don't feel like smiling, except less reversible...14:42
contingo:D14:43
BrainstormNew from Google News at 15:25: Coronavirus live updates: Officials letting last uninfected passengers leave Diamond Princess - CBS News: Coronavirus live updates: Officials letting last uninfected passengers leave Diamond Princess CBS News Passengers disembark from cruise ship as Japan announces 2 new deaths l ABC News ABC News Coronavirus: South Korea [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/tmG6tz16:30
LjLcontingo: was probably a superspreader, though he's negative now... but early rumors now say about twenty likely sick in Lombardy. If it's really that number... I guess we go from one of the least hit countries to one of the most hit somewhat suddenly18:42
contingoyou'll lag some way behind Singapore but catch up with Malaysia18:47
LjLcontingo, "patient one" (it's not clear who "patient zero" is, someone related came back from China but they're testing negative, so it's not certain) is so sick that there's an ambulance waiting to take him to Milan where we have an infectious disease unit but so far he's so bad they haven't been able to move him... he's one year older than me19:17
contingowas he previously in good health?19:29
LjLcontingo, even too much so, meaning he played sports and did stuff around a lot of other people19:33
LjLinformation is kinda fragmented for now though19:34
contingoI had a pneumonia vaccine earlier19:34
LjLthese three towns have been placed under a sort of soft lockdown19:34
LjLcontingo, they've said that's useless for the pneumonia caused by this virus since it causes it directly, not by secondary bacterial infection...19:34
contingoyes I know that19:35
LjLalso i'm unclear on what, if anything, happens to the people who recover, since i understand lung tissue gets damaged anyway19:35
contingoit was just, might as well, and what if both at once, etc.19:35
LjLgot a flu shot too?19:36
LjLi haven't, it's really only encouraged for elderly or people working in education/health19:36
LjLhere, at any rate19:36
contingohere it's only free for those, but they sell it to anyone19:37
contingoi got a flu shot yesterday19:37
contingothere's some unusual trend with the flu season here too19:37
LjLmy parents got it, maybe i should get it, although when i mentioned it about my sister (since immunosuppressed), my parents kinda dismissed it as "too late"19:38
LjLi don't think it's too late until you've actually caught the flu, but, well.19:39
contingothere's been a resurgence of this year's B strain, or something19:39
LjLcontingo, here's my (pathological?) thinking right now... if i get the flu in a while, we'll probably be in a situation similar to Wuhan at that point, where officers are searching door to door for people with a flu, and taking them to quarantine hospitals/camps, where if they *don't* have the coronavirus, they'll most certainly get it, and likely be at risk and neglected in other ways. i can only imagine that being worse when it happens here, due to our 19:40
LjLgeneral lack of organization19:40
LjLbtw the news on TV stopped just short of plainly hypothesizing a more aggressive strain of the virus being the one that got here, due to the 38 year old person and other people who are serious19:42
contingowell, TV news, you have to wait for stats and genetic data19:45
contingoor an obviating trend like everyone dying19:45
LjLcontingo, yes but i see so many contradictions that just don't help. they tell us to beware of fake news, and then they feed us all sorts of FUD. like for instance, the WHO and everyone parroting them keeps saying the virus only lives a couple of hours on surfaces. then why am i seeing scenes of people on motorcycles spraying "stuff" all over empty streets in South Korea? just like they did in Wuhan before, although it looked slightly different? what is 19:47
LjLeven the thing they're spraying, and why? i've been told it's just theatrics. i don't know what to think.19:47
contingomaybe it makes the surfaces kill any newly landing viruses more quickly for awhile19:48
contingoidk19:48
contingoif a question bugs me enough I go search on google scholar. If I searched for "effects of fumigation on viral transmission" and stuff like that I'd probably find some reliable primary literature to peruse19:49
LjLcontingo, i should probably avoid doing that, i wouldn't understand what i'm reading *and* it would make me more anxious. but i'm just saying, why can't media act decent for once? if you're showing me some scary thing then tell me why it's supposedly being done, and don't tell me something *contradicting* the idea of doing it19:53
LjLand it's made even worse when they say not to listen to scaremongering, while they're the ones doing it19:54
contingomaybe call these guys https://sentrex.co.uk/service/coronavirus-infection-control/19:56
contingoWHO's public advisory on 2019-nCov does also state: "Limit worry and agitation by lessening the time you and your family spend watching or listening to media coverage that you perceive as upsetting." :D20:01
LjLiow "Don't be reading this"20:01
LjLalso, i honestly wasn't expecting this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019#Alternative_medicine20:02
contingothe WHO's technical advice as of yesterday was of the situation as an ongoing event, the virus as still being characterized and investigated20:05
contingo"Currently,  there  are investigations conducted to  evaluate the viability  and  survival  time  of  SARS-CoV-2. In  general, coronaviruses are very stable in a frozen state according to studies ofother coronaviruses, which have shownsurvivalfor up to twoyears at -20°C. Studies conducted onSARS-CoV ad MERS-CoVindicate that these viruses can persist on different surfaces for up to a few days depending on a combination of parameters such as20:06
contingo temperature, humidity and light."20:06
contingo"SARS-CoV  and  MERS-CoV  are  susceptible  to  the  most  common  cleaning  and  disinfection  protocols  and  there  is  no indication so far that SARS-Cov-2 behaves differently."20:06
contingoso the fogging just seems like standard protocols and useful precautionary measures being put into practice20:06
contingohaving travelled a lot to SE Asia they are always fogging everywhere anyway20:07
LjLcontingo: well see, one piece of advice I've kept hearing, from international sources at first and now also from Italian ones, is that we shouldn't be afraid of getting packages from China as the virus only survives on surfaces for a few hours. Hours, not days, that's not quite the same thing. Given what you quoted above, this sounds more like advice intended to keep the economy going than to keep us from getting infected20:08
contingoyeah I can't find specific guidance from WHO on that20:10
contingopeople are trying to strike a balance20:11
contingonot keeping the economy going also comes with fatalities20:13
contingoa policy that would indeed completely halt the virus would be to stop all trade and travel20:13
contingoOK I found a more or less directly contradictory statement from WHO20:23
contingobut it might be because the quote was truncated20:26
contingoI would expect formal advice to talk about disinfection procedures in cargo holds and so forth20:27
LjLcontingo, on the good side i don't need to worry when ordering from china since our customs make sure the virus dies by withholding the package for a month or two22:00
contingolol22:02
contingoyou see, humor kills the virus22:03
LjLonly the virus in the mind22:06
contingoI am kind of anxious about a project I committed to at the moment, with a fixed delivery date of Sunday the 1st22:20
contingoso maybe that is using up all my anxiety for other things22:20
mefistofelesLjL: a good pastebin is bpaste.net thanks!!22:45
LjLmefistofeles, hm, okay, i'll topic that, but it enforce paste expiration in a week, which is a bit short. maybe it won't be an issue for a while since things are in a state of flux22:46
mefistofelesLjL: ah, true22:46
LjLi keep putting News: in the topic but the bot keeps ignoring that, so perhaps i should hammerfix the bot instead of doing the topic thing22:46
mefistofelesthanks22:46
mefistofelesLjL: we could use both, btw22:47
mefistofelesnot sure if that's done automatically22:47
LjLwell the bot is supposed to put news from its main rss feed into the topic, but it fails to do so in many channels, and i've failed to investigate the issue for... a while22:48
LjLalso i've just realized it hasn't pasted anything in a while22:48
LjLposted, not pasted22:48
LjLusually this channel is all botflood22:48
LjLcontingo, oh our news agency said all 6 confirmed cases (it's more now, but it was 6 earlier this afternoon) are in serious conditions, so that's great :\22:55
LjLfirst comment after the statement... https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1230877734492082176?s=2122:56
contingoI didn't realize Milan was so near Lugano23:01
contingoand Parma23:02
contingoshould I stop eating Parmesan or start stockpiling it?23:03
LjLcontingo, stockpile it, sell it as gold later... based on the amounts and prices they sell at Eataly, it's already close enough to gold23:06
LjLand yes Milan is like half an hour from the border23:07
LjLor three hours, at peak hour23:07
LjLor six hours, if there's an accident23:07
LjLor ∞, after switzerland closes the borders to quarantine us23:07
LjLthe current cases are south of milan though23:08
LjLcontingo, i went to Lugano during a school trip once. it mainly involved buying legal weed, smoking a bit of it, in particular everyone smoking all of the one i had bought and keeping theirs, but subsequently scramming to dispose of it and panicking when the border police boarded the train23:10
LjLcapital punishment stuff around your parts, i gather23:10
contingoI always intended to go to Lugano to attend Martha Argerich's festival, but it was discontinued23:14
contingoso I'll have to go to Lucerne instead23:15
contingo78 years old and still at the top23:16
contingodid you watch the statement given by the WHO Director-General?23:29
contingoperhaps don't23:30
contingothe hand gestures were quite ominous23:34
LjLcontingo, no, why the hand gestures, is he italian?23:51

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