libera/##covid-19/ Saturday, 2020-03-07

ryoumawasn't aware of that.  i'm sure there is nonreproducibility there too though if it is e.g. imaging.00:00
lapsangPhilosophy, Psychology, and Neuroscience are all united in this principle.  That's very rare.00:00
lapsangnot at all00:00
ryoumaneuroscience is not neurology00:00
lapsangAuthoritarians conduct thoughts primarily with their lizard brain00:00
ryoumaah that00:00
LjLAustria is (finally?) instituting health checks at the border with Italy00:01
LjLprobably late for y'all python47600:01
lapsangespecially any provocative or contradictory thought00:01
thebopeMy parents are coming into NYC this weekend :/, hope they miss it00:03
thebopeThey're not taking it very seriously even though they're washing their hands a lot I guess00:03
aradeshryouma = dragon horse, from shogi?00:10
aradesh竜馬00:10
joatds[m]<LjL "probably late for y'all python47"> The infection in Italy spread in January (Italian study), a month before the " first" case00:11
LjLjoatds[m], i know, was just joking a bit00:11
LjLGermany kindly said that while they expect a full blown epidemic now, it's "not Italy's fault"00:11
LjLi guess that's nice of them00:11
tinwhiskersheh00:11
aradesh^^00:12
LjLtechnically they're right though since they had clusters that got out of control... just slower than ours00:12
ubLIXheh. so much for doubling every 5 days. scotland yesterday: 3; scotland today; 1100:14
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 23:13 UTC: /u/slakmehl: ABC News Politics su Twitter: "BREAKING: 21 people on Grand Princess cruise ship docked off the California coast tested positive for coronavirus, including 19 crew members and two passengers, Vice Pres. Mike Pence says. 24 people tested negative. https://t.co/u7FlBwtOQU… https://t.co/1aVSFOQaCx" → https://is.gd/4dwPbb00:15
Brainstorm🔶 US: +33 cases (now 305) 🔶 World: +33 cases (now 101961)00:17
adventurer.00:19
tinwhiskersWell, other than the terrible music, that video by "the russian guy" in china and into Hubei was quite fascinating. https://youtu.be/A1yXTlvTB08?t=68200:20
LjLuhm... why would US give a case update without individual counties, did i mess up even in my attempt to revert the code00:20
tinwhiskerswe're so screwed if it takes what China has pulled off to contain the virus.00:24
ryoumawasn't aware that tehre was a move or piece in shogi called that.  historical figure.  helped end feudalism.  16:10 <aradesh> ryouma = dragon horse, from shogi? 00:25
ryouma(i prefer go)00:25
aradeshryouma: there is a piece that when promoted becomuse ryuuma00:26
Brainstorm🔸 Hong Kong, Hong Kong: +1 cases (now 107) 🔸 US: +4 cases (now 309) 🔸 King County, WA, US: +7 cases (now 58) 🔸 Los Angeles, CA, US: +2 cases (now 13) 🔸 Placer County, CA, US: +3 cases (now 5) 🔸 Snohomish County, WA, US: +1 cases (now 19) 🔸 World: +5 cases (now 101966)00:28
aradesh%covid italy00:28
Brainstormaradesh: In Italy, there are 4636 cases, 197 deaths (4.2% of cases), 523 recoveries as of Fri Mar  6 18:33:03 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Italy for time series data.00:28
aradeshgraph doesn't look very comforting00:29
aradeshwhy has china's infection count levelled off so much?00:30
aradeshhave they just stopped confirming cases?00:30
aradeshfind it hard to believe that it has run its course there00:31
LjLaradesh, thank you for the understatement00:32
LjLaradesh, also, enable Korea on top of it, just to see some slight difference among the overall similarities. then try Iran for kicks00:33
ryoumais it reasonable to test a sample of everybody who enters a hospital or a supermarket or something in various places aroudn the us, for example?00:35
python476you think china is shutting all reports ?00:36
python476https://twitter.com/bnodesk/status/1235886017674125314?s=21 <= told you 100k would make the news00:36
LjLryouma, i am not entirely sure why random-sample tests aren't made00:36
LjLi was just thinking today it seemed a very reasonable idea00:37
python476hi ryouma 00:37
fructosehttps://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/14/business/wuhan-coronavirus-journalists.html00:37
LjLget rid of all these lingering doubts about how many asymptomatics there are00:37
fructoseThat kind of thing seems like reason to be concerned00:37
LjLbut maybe you'd need too big a sample, since the infected are probably still a tiny portion00:37
LjLaradesh, personally i believe China's numbers are more or less reflecting of reality, and of the very harsh measures they've adopted all over the place there... but a few people seem to share your perplexities00:38
python476 fructose: thanks00:38
python476thanks for the chinese govt too00:38
python476without who nothing would have been possible00:38
python476<o/  \o>00:38
tinwhiskersWhen you're a video blogger, for whatever reason you may go missing (get covid-19, hit by a bus, forcibly 'quarantined') if will necessarily be after posting a video, so that doesn't count for a lot. Still, interesting links.00:43
aradeshLjL: hmm ok00:43
aradeshwell it's good they've been able to stop it spreading then...00:43
Brainstorm🔸 Spain: +1 cases (now 401) 🔸 World: +1 cases (now 101967)00:43
tinwhiskersAlso, considering his last words were "All citizens resist, hand power back to the people.”, then yeah, it's likely he got arrested.00:45
tinwhiskersBut that therefore has nothing to do with the "Chinese shutting all reports". That was political, not coverage of the virus.00:46
LjLtinwhiskers, i recall reading some 15 year old kid got stormed by the police (not arrested, but his DNA was taken during the raid) for posting a Taiwan flag on Twitter00:46
tinwhiskersThey don't muck around :-)00:47
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 23:47 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: 2 new cases in Ontario, Canada, national total 50 confirmed cases → https://is.gd/S8dFYB00:48
LjLi finally found some data about the locations of cases in Lombardy and the ages of the people infected and dead, as well as the amount of people in ICU etc00:55
LjLit's not encouraging, but at least it's good i found it since i was looking for it and getting frustrated before00:56
joatds[m]Nice00:56
Brainstorm🔸 Cameroon: +1 cases (now 2) 🔸 Canada: +1 cases (now 52) 🔸 World: +2 cases (now 101969)00:58
LjLnow i'd like to find the source (since i only found the same map and data posted on several news sites) so i can tap into it... it's almost certainly somewhere in the region's website, but that's an adventure to navigate00:58
LjLCameroon00:58
joatds[m]One of the "Red zone" as they called it is Codogno01:00
contingocatred zones sound bad01:01
joatds[m]They are the zones in which the virus spread most01:01
joatds[m]They were in quarantine , at least since last week01:02
joatds[m]Then I didn't check anymore01:02
tinwhiskersLjL: this? https://www.statista.com/statistics/1099389/coronavirus-deaths-by-region-in-italy/01:03
LjLtinwhiskers, no, that's a cheap one01:04
tinwhiskersOh, you mean within Lombardy. My bad01:04
izdang LjL 197 deaths now?01:04
LjLtinwhiskers, i have them per province, but more importantly, statistics on ages and pathologies etc01:04
LjLi'm reading, i'll provide01:04
LjLiz, yes01:04
tinwhiskersI see01:04
LjLjoatds[m], they are still quarantined01:04
LjLthere's just two01:05
LjLwith talks of adding a third01:05
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 23:55 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: 1 new case in Alberta, Canada, national total 51 → https://is.gd/xtb6gT01:05
LjLhttps://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iss.it%2Fen%2Fcomunicati-stampa%2F-%2Fasset_publisher%2FfjTKmjJgSgdK%2Fcontent%2Fid%2F528616601:05
LjLwhat did i always say about mundane things like high blood pressure hiding between the claim almost all patients had "comorbidities", Spec, contingocat?01:06
LjLnow that says, the most represented comorbidity is hypertension. surprise!01:06
LjL" The median time from the onset of symptoms to hospitalization was 5 days and the median of the time between hospitalization and death was 4 days." ← that's pretty quick as far as death goes... based on what i remember from other countries01:06
lapsangLjL - it appears to do actual heart muscle damage01:07
LjL"Although preliminary, these data confirm the observations made so far in the rest of the world on the main characteristics of patients" ← uhm well no not really but okay01:07
LjLlapsang, that's a new one, who claims that?01:07
lapsangmale anatomy, too01:07
adventurerlapsang, do you have a link about this?01:08
LjLand then they have a press report saying (boasting?) that our mortality rate is lower than china's01:08
lapsanghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0A0LyMru3I&feature=youtu.be&t=11301:08
LjLneglecting to mention it's higher than... everyone else01:08
lapsang^ 3 COVID-19 Cases As Described By Doctors In China01:09
LjLand... uh... it's not even true, lol01:09
LjLmy government are utter morons01:09
LjLwell this isn't the government, but close enough01:09
LjLtinwhiskers, contingocat, Spec: i have no words, look at this https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.iss.it%2Fen%2Fcomunicati-stampa%2F-%2Fasset_publisher%2FfjTKmjJgSgdK%2Fcontent%2Fid%2F5288119%3F_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_fjTKmjJgSgdK_redirect%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.iss.it%252Fcomunicati-stampa%253Fp_p_id%253Dcom_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTAN01:10
LjLCE_fjTKmjJgSgdK%2526p_p_lifecycle%253D0%2526p_p_state%253Dnormal%2526p_p_mode%253Dview%2526_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_fjTKmjJgSgdK_cur%253D0%2526p_r_p_resetCur%253Dfalse%2526_com_liferay_asset_publisher_web_portlet_AssetPublisherPortlet_INSTANCE_fjTKmjJgSgdK_assetEntryId%253D5288119  it says that lethality is lower here "for all age groups" than in china, then it also says our total mortality is 3.5% while 01:10
LjLtheirs was 2.4%. like... uh?01:10
LjLwhoops that was a slightly long url01:10
tinwhiskershrm01:10
LjLhttps://is.gd/ZV3ihe01:10
LjL(they're old data, too, now we're at 4.3%, but whatever, it sounds like bollocks anyway)01:11
LjL"Let's not forget that Italy has a much higher average age than for example China (44.3 years versus 37.4) and this puts even more pressure on the structures and operators in the areas affected by the epidemic"  ←   sure, also, let's not forget that Japan has an even higher average age, and much lower mortality01:11
izyeah, i worry for japan01:12
tinwhiskersAnd they're using the "current deaths/current infections" method01:12
izesp w/ the olympics happening soon01:12
LjLtinwhiskers, to be fair, pretty much everyone is01:12
LjLnot that that makes it reasonable, but01:12
tinwhiskersok01:12
LjLtinwhiskers, also i'm bad at maths but just *how* can we have lower fatality for all age groups, yet higher fatality in total?01:13
LjLi guess... yeah, okay, if we have a ton of old people. but it must be really a *ton*01:13
tinwhiskersyou can't for *all* age groups and still have a lower total01:13
tinwhiskerserr. higher01:14
fructoseiz: Japan seems to have the lowest growth rate and highest doubling time01:14
dunnphttps://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-dog-pet-hong-kong-infection01:14
dunnphmm01:14
tinwhiskersdog *contamination*01:15
tinwhiskers(most likely)01:16
LjLtinwhiskers, well, this is the highest healthcare body in the country, so if they miss the basic maths, maybe that does explain the mortality01:16
tinwhiskerswith humans shedding virus everywhere and dogs going around sniffing you'd expect them to be contaminated01:16
dunnpread the article tinwhiskers 01:17
dunnpfollowup tests also showed the virus01:17
izdunnp: it says the followup tests were also a nose swab01:18
LjLtinwhiskers, but actually are you sure you can't? simplified example: china is made up of one 30 year old person, and two 80 year old people. italy is made up of one 30 year old person, and four 80 year old people. let's say for below 70, the death rate is just 0% in both countries, so that's taken care of. now for the over-70, italy has 66% while china has 100%. that still means a total of 3 italians vs 2 chinese dead01:18
dunnpyes iz 01:18
LjLtinwhiskers, also, 75%01:18
tinwhiskersThe owner was infected so subsequent infected swabs testing positive are entirely possible without the dog being infected01:18
izyeah, what tinwhiskers said01:19
dunnpright, I forgot that you all know more about this than the scientists doing the work on the ground01:19
izlol01:19
izre-read the article01:19
izyou are just globbing on to the parts you like01:20
dunnpthey put the dog under quarantine on feb 26 and it tested postive on march 201:20
LjLtinwhiskers, sorry but i'd say that if the dog was quarantined on february 28 and still tested positive on march 2, it's fairly safe to say that... well... either the dog *is* positive, or "ability to survive on surfaces" is scarily higher than we've been told01:20
LjLright, 2601:20
izwell, a moist dog's nose is different than most surfaces01:21
tinwhiskersLjL: Ah. I didn't see that bit. fair enough. It might.01:21
LjLiz, yet noses are also "engineered" so as to eat up and eventually remove as many bad things as possible01:22
LjLso a nose is typically a highly contaminated place, but you wouldn't expect the *same* things to still be there several days later if they aren't replicating01:22
izwell, hold them in snot, yes01:22
LjL(or getting placed there again)01:22
ryoumaif you can't get rubbing alcohol, what does one sterilize surfaces with?  faucet handles and food packages e.g.01:24
izwell, the tests were weakly positive01:24
izso that sounds more like remnants vs replicating at very small numbers01:24
izbut who knows01:24
izsoap and water and let it dry, right?01:25
joatds[m]Bleach works for surface01:26
LjLiz, i would honestly go "i don't more than the scientists doing the work" too in this case... they quarantined the dog, they tested the dog again later. presumably they thought it would be safe to say that they would have found it negative if it really was negative, or else they'd have waited longer01:26
joatds[m]For human, soap and alcohol-water solution01:26
ryoumarubbing alcohol is like 1usd per ounce.  16usd for a bottle that is normally 1usd isn't insane but frugality makes one hesitate.01:27
LjLiz, note that the "weakness" of the positive was there both times, so as the article mentions, it's more likely that it just doesn't replicate all that well in the dog01:27
ryoumaon amazon01:27
LjLryouma, search for isopropyl too01:27
izwell, they _did_ say the test results were only weakly positive which would mean it's only replicating at a very small amount01:27
joatds[m]I don't know if it's available in your country, but food alcohol works too01:27
ryoumaLjL: seems same on amazon01:27
LjLfoodgrade alcohol is usually a lot more expensive (usually mostly due to taxes)01:28
tinwhiskersLjL: ah, yes, considering an average age of 45 in Italy v.s. 37 in China that could be enough to make the total higher yet all age-classes lower.01:28
joatds[m]<LjL "foodgrade alcohol is usually a l"> Yeah, you're right01:28
izalso it says the tests only check for parts of the virus, but not parts that would mean it's infectious01:28
LjLtinwhiskers, yeah. still, it's hilarious how the ISS are spinning their numbers to make it sound good for Italy, when it really, really isn't01:28
LjLryouma, just ethanol without denaturating agents01:29
ryoumaah01:29
LjLiz, if it's reproducing, the animal is infected, that's pretty much by definition01:29
LjLwhether it can infect *others* is a wholly different matter01:29
joatds[m]<LjL "tinwhiskers, yeah. still, it's h"> Where did you read it's that bad?01:29
izyeah, the test didn't look at that part of the virus01:30
LjLjoatds[m], https://is.gd/ZV3ihe01:30
LjLsorry, extra character at the end01:30
LjLhttps://is.gd/ZV3ihe01:30
izi don't think i know more than the scientists, i just read a different take on what the scientists are saying in that article01:30
LjLiz, well it's just the whole discussion was based on the statement "The owner was infected so subsequent infected swabs testing positive are entirely possible without the dog being infected" so it was about whether the dog was infected or not. the definition of the dog being infected isn't about whether it can infect others.01:31
joatds[m]I don't get where they are taking numbers01:31
tinwhiskersiz: it's ok. I don't think the scientists are saying it. This is what the reporters are saying.01:31
LjLjoatds[m], they are the state healthcare institution of italy. they take the numbers directly from patients.01:32
LjLjoatds[m], you are not looking at a news outlet01:32
izyeah, pretty sure there is a lot of reporter thumb in that01:32
tinwhiskersphrases like "low-level" and "weakly positive" make it look like spin to me01:32
LjLit was already "low level" and "weakly positive" when i first heard about this several days ago01:33
LjLnow, they tested it again, and it's still the same01:33
LjLthat tells me it's positive, i really don't see how it would say otherwise01:33
izyeah, i think it's more media novelty than important01:33
izcuz a dog01:33
LjLiz, yes, the important thing is whether it can infect others01:33
LjLthe article makes no claim about that - correctly01:34
LjLbut still, the article makes a claim, and i think *that* claims seems very reasonable at this point01:34
tinwhiskerswell, it's certainly worth more investigation, as they say.01:34
izthe only claim it makes is that there were positive tests from a dog's nose that aren't checking if it's infectious01:34
LjLno, the claim it's making is there are successive tests after quarantine01:35
izfile under: media novelty, like a dancing bear article01:35
LjLskipping that part would be worse than whatever you're accusing the article of spinning01:35
LjLthe dog isn't being kept under quarantine for the sake of the media01:35
LjLlet's not be ridiculous here01:35
izthe tests are also from a dog's nose and aren't checking if it's infectious01:35
LjLyou just keep on repeating that01:35
izAs the dog’s tests are only weakly positive, it could be a dead-end host, meaning that the virus is not replicating at high enough levels in the dog to be transmitted to someone else. The tests also rely on detecting small bits of the virus’s genetic code, which does not measure whether infectious virus that can infect another host is present. 01:35
izwell, maybe you didn't read it?01:36
LjLokay01:36
tinwhiskersthat suggests it *is* replicating, which would count as infected01:36
LjLiz, is the difference between "being infected" and "being infectious" lost on you?01:36
dunnpyes could be - thats why they are following up still01:36
LjLis this a language barrier issue?01:36
LjLbecause yes i did read the article very thoroughly and i understand this nuance of English01:36
LjLand the claim here is only the animal is INFECTED01:36
LjLnot that it's INFECTIOUS01:36
izno, my point is an infected dog that isn't infectious isn't notable news, except for the novelty of it01:37
LjLand your point is stupid01:37
dunnpwoo sorry I pasted it here dang01:37
izlol01:37
LjLbecause the animal is obviously being kept under quarantine for a medical reason01:37
LjLthat medical reason may well be to figure out whether it's INFECTIOUS01:37
LjLbut in the meanwhile, finding out that it's INFECTED is obviously medically relevant01:37
LjLas said, it merits further study01:37
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 00:22 UTC: /u/slakmehl: The Associated Press su Twitter: "Days before a Seattle-area nursing home became the epicenter of the coronavirus outbreak in the U.S., visitors entered without signing in, halls were packed and dozens gathered in a cramped room for a Mardi Gras party. https://t.co/smgv54xbix" → https://is.gd/KejHSj01:37
LjLbut saying that the whole thing is just "for media novelty" is ludicruous01:37
izwhat do you think the difference is between infectious and being able to transmit the virus to someone else?01:37
LjLwhy do we have to get lost on such really really obvious basic things really?01:38
LjLiz, they are the same thing.01:38
izi agree01:38
LjLwhat do you think the difference between infected and infectious is?01:38
joatds[m]<LjL "joatds, you are not looking at a"> I'm reading the news, I live 20 minutes  from cologno. It's not that bad01:38
LjLor are you just trolling me, because by now it sounds like you are01:38
LjLwe're going in circles01:38
LjLjoatds[m], Codogno not Cologno. Colognio is to the north-east of Milan.01:38
izinfected means the virus is inside the cells and replicating, infectious means it's replicating at a high enough level that it can transmit the virus to someone else.01:38
LjLiz, good, so you do understand the definitions01:39
LjLthen you're just annoying me for no reason01:39
LjLgood to know, thanks01:39
izso what do you think the part about the virus not replicating at high enough levels in the dog to be transmitted to someone else means?01:39
LjLit means you now need to take a time out01:39
LjLand me too01:40
tinwhiskerslol01:40
tinwhiskersI don't recall anyone claiming the dog was infectious, only that it was infected. It appears from the article it was indeed infected and not just contaminated.01:42
lapsangsxsw cancelled01:44
dunnpwow lapsang 01:46
lapsangall events, schools, etc should be cancelled01:47
lapsangjust keep the stores open, thats it01:48
dunnpfor how long?01:48
lapsangtill everyone has the virus, obviously01:48
lapsang* has had01:48
dunnpwe were asked to set up a plan to have all classes virtually within a week01:48
dunnpso something like this might happen01:49
dunnphttps://twitter.com/UWVirology/status/1236017803162873856?s=2001:50
zirpu1000 test/day doesn't seem that much.  but 5-7% is a concern.01:51
LjLdunnp, hmm, positivity rate only means something if you know what the criteria for testing are, though, i suspect... (and/or you know they are the same as somewhere else you are comparing with)01:51
LjLzirpu, keep in mind it definitely doesn't mean 5-7% of the general population have it01:52
zirpuright. but seems to be from ppl that had symptoms.01:52
dunnpthats probably 5-7% of people that they suspect could have gotten it by contact with positives 01:52
LjLyeah01:52
LjLthough details vary01:52
dunnpat least they are now testing more en masse01:52
zirpuif only it had some specific symptom like uncontrollable laughing, then it would be easier to catch.01:53
LjLin both senses of catching...01:53
zirpuoh yeah. gah. all that spit.01:53
ubLIX"Interim guidance for environmental cleaning in non-healthcare facilities exposed to SARS-CoV-2" - 18 February 2020 - https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/sites/default/files/documents/coronavirus-SARS-CoV-2-guidance-environmental-cleaning-non-healthcare-facilities.pdf (pdf) - references on last page01:53
LjLubLIX, wait, the ECDC actually do things?!01:54
ubLIX^ short note, only 8 chemicals and concentrations mentioned01:54
LjL"Due to the potential survival of the virus in the environment for several days, the premises and areas potentially contaminated with SARS-CoV-2should be cleaned before their re-use,"01:54
ubLIXLjL: well they apparently do interim things01:55
LjL"several days" doesn't sound like the "several hours" that they tell us for China-related package receiving purposes, does it, Spec?01:55
LjLwell, more like "only some hours" is what they used to state01:55
LjL("they" not being the ECDC, but others who really should know better, such as the WHO)01:55
dunnpHarvard has banned all travel for employees wow01:56
LjLubLIX, well all in all 70% alcohol seems to remain a pretty solid choice01:56
LjLgee i really can't make code that works can i01:58
LjL%cases italy01:58
BrainstormValueError: invalid literal for int() with base 10: '' (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/modules/covid.py", line 64, in covid)01:58
LjLor at least that works... more than once01:58
LjLtinwhiskers, but you were feeding me 0's before, not empty strings! you're terrible. now you lose you voice01:59
ubLIXi was searching for evidence of viricidal usefulness of benzalkonium chloride (you can get wet wipes with this compound). it's.. uhm.. not useless. but it's not 70% alcohol, either01:59
ubLIXanyhoo, nn01:59
tinwhiskersLjL: What are you getting empty strings for?02:00
LjLtinwhiskers, according to the error and the line involved, at some row in the Confirmed column02:00
LjLtinwhiskers, here possible: US;Queens County, NY;;;;158353950202:01
LjLor... certainly, it's the only one02:01
LjLthe timestamp also looks odd02:01
LjLothers have three more digits02:01
LjLzeroes, but still digits02:02
tinwhiskersI see02:02
LjLoh wait, same also for US;New York City, NY;;;;158353950202:02
LjLand for US;Boston, MA;;;;1583539502 i'm clearly blind02:02
tinwhiskersyes, the timestamps are also in unix time instead of javascript time02:02
tinwhiskersI'll look into it02:03
LjLwell anyway i changed my code to treat them as zeroes, but i guess there's still something off in yours02:03
tinwhiskersyeah. thanks02:03
dunnpthis on github?02:04
LjLthe voice was for being the VOICE of reason, btw, in case that wasn't clear!02:04
LjLdunnp, nope, i can't do git02:04
LjL%souce covid02:04
LjL%source covid02:04
BrainstormLjL, source code for module 'covid' can be found at https://paste.ee/p/tyQM5 02:04
LjLhere you go02:04
tinwhiskersThat'll be related to my "fix" from yesterday when the john hopkins gis site went down02:05
zirpuLjL: use row.get('Confirmed', 0) to default to zero if no entry.02:05
LjLzirpu, that's probably cleaner than what i did, yeah02:06
LjLalthough mine should work too02:06
ryoumaare there differences in quality among regular surgical masks (not talking n95 here, just the kind tos top you from infecting others)?02:06
zirpuyeah, there should be a way to test that the string is a number.02:07
LjLzirpu, if you google that sort of thing people will parrot you the Python mantra that it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission, and give you a try: except: about it. which seems... silly, in part because there is no inline try: except:02:08
zirpuyeah, that's the initial obvious way to catch the exceptions, but i seem to recall there was some way to test the string that it's a number. i can't find it yet.02:09
zirpuotherwise, write a util function to do the try-except.02:10
zirpuseems that it was just an empty string through.  csv might be able to be told to make it default to 0.02:10
LjLi won't overthink this, an "or" or your .get will do fine for now02:11
zirpu+102:11
Brainstorm🔸 Australia: +1 cases (now 64) 🔸 Canada: +2 cases (now 54) 🔸 Mainland China: +1 cases (now 80651) 🔸 Beijing, Mainland China: +4 cases (now 426), +4 recoveries (now 303) 🔸 Chongqing, Mainland China: +7 recoveries (now 520) 🔸 Hunan, Mainland China: +4 recoveries (now 959) 🔸 Jiangsu, Mainland China: +7 recoveries (now 601) 🔸 Sichuan, Mainland China: +6 recoveries (now 448) 🔸 Senegal: +1 recoveries (now 1) 🔸 W02:13
LjLif you want to see something really ugly, look at the main if statement in the code02:13
LjLalso it's still not posting from Matrix, bleh :(02:13
dunnp%cases scotland02:15
Brainstormdunnp: 3 lest ah googled (45 seconds ago)02:15
dunnpheh02:15
zirpuawesome. :-)02:15
dunnpwhat is Matrix?02:16
lapsangtake the red pill02:16
LjLdunnp, a sort of more modern IRC alternative, that this channel is bridged with (meaning this channel is also a Matrix room), https://matrix.org02:17
tinwhiskersit's actually John Hopkins putting in a blank. They've got a blank as the latest value for those locations even after having counts above 0. I assume those to be cumulative so was just taking the most recent number, but they've mucked that up.02:17
zirpuLjL: row[key].isdigit() or 002:18
zirpusince you know it's a string.  use the string methods to test.02:18
zirputhere's also .isnumer() for floats too.02:19
zirpu erg. .isnumeric()02:19
LjLzirpu, isdigit is not actually great for that... it would probably work in this case, but, obvious caveats, it will say False if there's a decimal period/comma or a sign02:19
LjLnot in python 2.7 ;(02:19
dunnpyou can use skipinitialspace=True for the csvreader02:19
zirpuerp. n/m.  isnumeric doesn't work. my bad.02:20
dunnpto get rid of a space after the delimeter02:20
zirpuuse python3! :-)02:20
dunnphttps://docs.python.org/2/library/csv.html#csv-fmt-params02:20
LjLzirpu, that makes it seem simple... this bot has become an enormous beast with tentacles over the years. i've tried to convert it to python 3 a few times but then i couldn't keep up with it02:20
LjLdunnp, spaces aren't the problem02:20
dunnpthought you got a ; ; 02:21
LjLno, a ;;02:21
dunnpoh misread02:21
LjLthis is what the bot mainly does since around 2016, aside from being useless at IRC stuff https://twitter.com/BrainstormBot02:22
LjLnote the channel (actually: Matrix room) spin02:23
zirpusadly csv doesn't allow the use of collections.defaultdict02:23
zirpuanyway, i'd just create a util function to do the try: except: then you're good.02:24
dunnpis matrix a web app?02:25
zirpuyes and no.  it's basically a distributed irc replacement sort of thing. i think. i'm vague about it.02:26
dunnpah I see02:26
dunnpand it mirrors irc users?02:26
zirputhere are gateways between matrix and irc.02:27
dunnphmm02:28
zirpugateways/proxies, i'm not sure what they're called, but basically porting messages from 1 to the othere and vice versa.02:28
LjLdunnp, a web app is its best-known client, but no, it's a protocol, which anyone can write clients for, and there are already a number of clients (including, say, a plugin for weechat)02:29
dunnpseems useful if you have to be on lots of platforms02:29
LjLMatrix's main purpose isn't to be a gateway for other platforms02:29
LjLit just has "addon" functionality and some of the addons are bridges to other platforms02:29
LjLit was a pretty clever way to gain users, really02:30
zirpubridges. that's the term i was looking for.02:30
zirpu[m]indeed.02:30
dunnpMatrix’s initial goal is to fix the problem of fragmented IP communications: letting users message and call each other without having to care what app the other user is on - making it as easy as sending an email.02:30
LjLmany once-IRC-channels have basically become mostly Matrix rooms now, without their users even noticing it... just by virtue of more and more people using Matrix "as" an IRC bouncer sort of thing02:30
zirpui like the idea of having a private matrix server instead of a "service" like slack.02:31
zirpuOSS FTW.02:31
LjLbut this channel isn't simply bridged to Matrix the way any freendoe channel is if you invoke it as #freenode_#channel:matrix.org02:31
zirpu[m]so how is it being bridged?02:32
LjLthis one is actually its own room on Matrix, with goodness like a colorful coronavirus icon, and a topic that's always out of date because the bridge doesn't actually bridge the channel topic, and i forget02:32
zirpuwow. slow to come across.02:32
contingocatwhat is the icon02:32
zirpui do like the icon.02:32
LjLit's on Matrix as #covid-19:matrix.org (and a few other aliases)02:32
contingocatwhy was i not subcontracted to design the icon02:32
LjLcontingocat, the Wikipedia image on the "coronavirus" article. i'm sorry it's not precisely a sars-cov-2 image!02:33
dunnpinteresting02:33
LjLcontingocat, because the wikipedia one seemed to work pretty well, it even already had background transparency :P02:33
dunnpI use slack msotly for work02:33
contingocati will render something for your consideration02:33
LjLcontingocat, but feel free. i don't pay very much for the job though02:33
zirpufree carrots.02:33
contingocatit's ok, you helped me get the quadro02:34
joatds[m]<LjL "joatds, Codogno not Cologno. Col"> I meant Codogno02:34
LjLjoatds[m], yeah, to be fair, i also meant Cologno and not Colognio, both times02:35
LjLwhoopsies02:35
LjLyou'd figure after being used to spelling English almost correctly, i could spell Italian02:36
joatds[m]<LjL "joatds, yeah, to be fair, i also"> Are you serious? You want me to share my position:)?02:37
LjLjoatds[m], uh... how do you figure that?02:37
zirpuzirpu[m]: poke test.02:38
zirpu[m]stop that you bald monkey.02:38
zirpu:-)02:38
LjLi read that as puke test at first02:39
LjLand i wanted to say, no you don't need to do that, this usually doesn't present with gastrointestinal symptoms02:39
LjLA Chinese-speaker on the subreddit sums up what they’ve gleaned from Chinese social media. For example:02:42
LjL    People are talking less about Wuhan and more about the rest of the world in recent days. The worst of the overload in Wuhan is over, and the quarantine in the rest of the country is keeping spread more or less manageable. People are talking more about the usual scandals and fandom stuff. Meanwhile, people are horrified at, say, Japan’s mismanagement of its earlier cases. I’ve seen the attitude “we sacrificed Wuhan to slow the spread and you02:42
LjL guys are just wasting your window of opportunity?” And comments that maybe the CCP isn’t that incompetent in comparison after all.02:42
zirpuCCP?02:43
zirpuoh. n/m. communist pigs.02:43
zirpuparty! i meant to type party! gah. keyboards.02:43
zirpuwhy do they even bother calling themselves communist still?02:44
lapsangis china not communist02:44
zirpusocialist maybe, but definately grasped capitalism and sold their slave labor far and wide.02:45
lapsangwho pays the workers?02:45
zirpuwhoever they work for, whether a company or a state run company.02:46
lapsangall companies aren't state-run?02:47
zirpunot any more.02:47
lapsangAre salaries negotiated between worker and private property owner?02:47
zirputhat headline seems to imply that the doctor was responsible for the cruise ship cases. weird.02:47
dunnpit is a Unitary Marxist-Leninist one-party socialist republic!02:47
dunnpaccording to wikipedia02:48
dunnpbut the companies exist at the pleasure of the gov't02:48
lapsangthe only part of that with a clear definition is "one-party"02:48
LjL"My mother and I had to line up from six in the morning at a convenience store," Jung Dohwan, a banker, told ABC News. "The store was selling only one box of masks per person, so I changed my jacket and used two different credit cards, pretending to be a different person, and bought three boxes."02:49
LjLoh lawd, people.02:49
lapsangSocialism as a word should be retired IMO02:49
lapsangit doesn't mean anything02:49
zirpui wish non-sick people would stop wearing masks.02:49
LjLwhy do you wish that?02:49
zirpui live in seattle next door to AWS HQ and it's been a ghost town here for the past few days since they told everyone who can work from home to do it.02:50
zirpulots of open parking though. :-)02:50
zirpuand quieter.  sadly, the food trucks didn't show up today. :(02:50
ryoumai read china gov sent out a whole lot of stooges to social media though so i'd take that witha  grain of salt maybe02:51
ryoumaLjL: 02:52
zirpuLjL: about the masks, well people aren't going to prevent infection with the masks. it's just a talisman. not that it's impossible to breathe in a virus, but most of them are not N95 or better.02:53
LjLryouma, but to be fair, the cruise ship thing was managed... horrendously, and, our government (Italy) *did* keep saying, before the outbreak hit us bad, "We must be quite thankful to China because with their draconian measures they bought us time to prepare"... and then, they didn't prepare at all (or maybe they just prepared their speeches)02:53
zirpumasks are to keep sick people from spreading the virus.02:53
LjLso whether the Reddit company is from an actual Chinese person or not, they're a grain of truth in it02:53
dunnpmasks also help you to stop touching your mouth02:53
lapsangmasks hold moist particles near the face.  This makes it easier for healthy people to catch covid-1902:53
dunnpi dont think so lapsang 02:54
lapsangsick people however should wear the masks, to brunt the spread of particles02:54
zirpudunnp: good point.  and glasses for the eyes.  clothes pin for the nose? :-)02:54
lapsangdunnp this is conventional wisdom02:54
dunnpis it?02:54
LjLzirpu, i disagree with that assessment on masks. 1) N95, or in Europe, FPP2/FPP3 masks are likely reasonably effective, and 2) you don't know whether you're "non-sick" since it's been established by now that people can be infectious while asymptomatic, so even surgical masks will be useful if everyone wears them02:54
ryoumagovs seem to be extremely incompetent.  but i don't think china has much to do with that.02:54
LjLi feel the one true reason behind the "no masks!" stress is that there is a huge shortage and healthcare people need to have them first02:55
LjLwhich is perfectly reasonable... but lies aren't a good way to achieve that, IMO02:55
zirpuah. yeah. i see the point.  the 2-14 day incubation period and lack of symptoms.02:55
LjLoh, and yeah, the masks helping you to stop touching your mouth/nose is always a good point, which i always forget about, but yeah02:55
zirpui agree, healthcare workers need to keep supplied.02:55
lapsangdunnp https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/02/n95-face-mask-coronavirus/02:55
zirpuwe're really screwed w/o the healthcare workers.02:56
lapsanghttps://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/02/26/how-to-prepare-for-coronavirus/02:56
ryoumatrue.  problem is, i am bedridden.  i rely on my carer in order to survive.  if she gets sick, i'd like her to wear any non-valve mask, preferably surgical mask, to not cough on my food, bowls, spoons, or me.  where do i go online to get, say, 100 non-ripoff such masks for her?02:56
ryoumashe is, in effect, a healthcare worker02:56
dunnplapsang: it says absolutely nothing about holind particles near your face02:57
dunnpyou have made up this conventional wisdom02:57
LjLlapsang, the Washington Post article immediately shows some of the usual contradictions. they actually make it worse because of moisture... okay... but then they say you DO need to wear one if you're taking care of a sick person? so wait, do they make the risk worse or not02:57
LjLi really wouldn't resort to mainstream media outlet for whether masks are effective or not. they all just parrot each other.02:57
LjLryouma, well, if she can buy a mask for less than an ounce of gold, more power to her02:58
zirpuecho chamber that spreads mis-information just as fast as facts.02:58
lapsangthats paranoiac02:59
dunnpryouma: yea masks are backordered. I'm surprised people can still buy them02:59
dunnpI work for a hospital and I can't get any02:59
LjLlapsang, what's "paranoiac"03:00
LjLthat mainstream media these days are mostly lazy asses that copy each other and/or wikipedia?03:00
LjLparanoia really seems to have a low bar with some people03:00
lapsangYes03:01
LjLdunnp, someone i know who works in a hospital reported the hospital was broken in to steal masks and hand sanitizer03:01
lapsangrefuting anything by calling it "mainstream media" is quite paranoiac03:01
dunnpwe have security guards watching the masks for incoming patients 03:01
LjLi don't think you know what "paranoiac" means03:01
lapsangYou get your news from Bubba at the truck stop, I guess03:01
LjLand it's also not a nice thing to accuse others of being03:01
ryoumaon amazon, there are lots and lots of surgical masks, and they are not price gouged, but they cannot be sorted by rating, and they are all from sellers that look weird03:01
dunnpI can normally get 50 for $303:02
dunnpamazon is wayyyy above that03:02
ryoumaok well they are more like 5003:02
ryoumaso dunno which to choose03:02
LjLsurgical masks are, in normal time, just pennies03:02
LjLryouma, can't help you there, and probably neither can the reviews. i would just get the cheapest that don't have "ugh these are terrible to wear" reviews, since none of them work miracles anyway03:03
LjLryouma, keep in mind they *do* need to be replaced often (daily, at least), or they actually do become a liability for the person wearing them03:04
lapsangLjL is of the opinion that the US Surgeon General has no expertise and is merely parroting something he heard in the mainstream media.03:04
lapsangThat's fine, but don't expect much traction with others.03:05
LjLno, i am not of that opinion and if you lie about my opinions in the future i will not let you continue to do so03:05
lapsangWorld Health Organization?  Why they're nothing more than the lame stream media!03:05
LjLi am of the opinion, as i actually mentioned earlier, that authorities (like presumably the US Surgeon General) mainly want the public to stop hoarding masks because they are actually needed by healthcare personnel03:05
LjLyou are trolling03:06
LjLthis channel is not for trolling03:06
LjLtake a time out03:06
LjLalso stop PMing me03:06
LjLwhy do people think that when i quiet them, i want to continue the discussion in PM?03:06
LjLi really don't03:06
dunnpheh03:06
dunnpme too03:07
LjLi explained *just above* why organizations like the WHO probably tell healthy people to avoid masks. if you can't read that, or won't, i have no interest in talking to you03:07
dunnpWHO guidelines say to not wear a mask only because they need them for healthcare - not because it makes it more likelt that you would get ill03:07
LjLand hey i believe it is actually a very good reason!03:07
dunnpyes03:07
LjLi just think it's not good they mislead people by saying that masks *aren't useful* for them. they should just say that healthcare workers need them03:07
Brainstorm🔶 World: +180 cases (now 102245), +1 deaths (now 3495) 🔶 South Korea: +174 cases (now 6767), +1 deaths (now 44) 🔸 New South Wales, Australia: +2 cases (now 28) 🔸 Victoria, Australia: +1 cases (now 11) 🔸 Czech Republic: +1 cases (now 19) 🔸 US: +5 cases (now 326) 🔸 Cook County, IL, US: +1 cases (now 6) 🔸 Fort Bend County, TX, US: +2 cases (now 3)03:08
LjLbecause really, people will eventually read somewhere that it's kind of not really true, and then they will doubt everything you say03:08
LjLit may be a good short-term strategy but it's terrible long-term03:08
LjLa great way to make people stop trusting institutions03:08
LjLlapsang, i told you to stop PMing me, and instead, you PMd with with *yet another* institution (this time the CDC) when i have already, twice now, pointed at the fact i already explained why i think these institutions give these indications03:09
LjLso since you aren't willing or able to understand simple English, i'm afraid this isn't just a timeout anymore03:09
LjLdoes it really take this much pain in the ass feeling to manage a channel of less than 70 people, gee03:10
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 02:01 UTC: /u/slakmehl: Ryan Struyk su Twitter: "Latest @CNN reporting: 4:25 p.m: Minnesota reports first coronavirus case 5:20 p.m: First coronavirus case in Oklahoma 6:35 p.m: Connecticut reveals first coronavirus case 7:18 p.m: First coronavirus case in Kentucky reported 8:05 p.m: Nebraska reports first coronavirus case" → https://is.gd/Xu6RA803:17
LjLhmm so far this reddit live thread is basically duplicating the case info the bot already reports03:18
LjLi was hoping for more actual news03:18
dunnpstill pming me too03:18
LjLoh good grief03:18
LjLdunnp, i've set myself +g, fwiw, that should give people a hint their PMs are not welcomed03:18
dunnp%cases North Carolina03:18
Brainstormdunnp: In World, there are 2 cases, 0 deaths (0.0% of cases), 0 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 03:03:30 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.03:18
dunnpwhat is +g?03:18
LjLdunnp, it stops people from sending you messages, but it does give you a notice that someone has sent you a message, so that you have a chane of messaging them back if it's someone you know03:19
LjLit's basically the freenode version of caller ID03:19
contingocatin World 03:19
LjLalthough if your client puts notices into a status window, you may miss them03:19
LjLcontingocat, oh right... i knew were was still that issue, i forgot to look at it03:19
LjLbut it's actually reporting about North Carolina (if only...)03:20
zirpui just ignore him.03:20
Brainstorm🔸 Toronto, ON, Canada: +3 cases (now 27)03:21
LjLzirpu, you're getting messages too?03:22
LjLthe hell03:22
LjLis he harassing the whole channel now because i banned him?03:23
LjL%cases North Carolina03:24
BrainstormLjL: In NC, US, there are 2 cases, 0 deaths (0.0% of cases), 0 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 03:13:09 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.03:24
LjLi'm going to change the date format because my OCD can't stand seeing that double space after the month name03:24
zirpunot for a while. i just closed the PM and ignored him.03:28
LjLi might end up making a "what about masks" section for the pastebin after the "it's just a flu!" section03:32
LjLi meant it as a collection of links but then there keep being these myths creeping up that are just annoying to rebut every time03:33
LjL(i mean, even when people aren't being actively malicious about them)03:33
Brainstorm🔸 Montreal, QC, Canada: +1 cases (now 3) 🔸 Palestine: +6 cases (now 22) 🔸 US: +1 cases (now 327) 🔸 World: +7 cases (now 102252)03:36
zirpugood idea.03:38
fructoseNew analysis, including L vs. S: https://twitter.com/trvrb03:47
adventurer%data australia03:50
Brainstorm🔶 World: +16 cases (now 102268) 🔶 United Arab Emirates: +16 cases (now 45)03:50
Brainstormadventurer: In None, Australia, there are 64 cases, 2 deaths (3.1% of cases), 22 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 02:55:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Australia for time series data.03:50
Brainstormadventurer: Mortality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.0% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ of cases undetected), and less than 8.0% (considering only deaths and recoveries).03:50
contingocathow are things going03:51
contingocati haven't read the news in five hours XD03:52
tinwhiskersThe scoreboard shows lots of countries doing extremely well03:52
tinwhiskersSARS-COV-2 is the winner on the day03:52
tinwhiskersoh... those aren't scores? oh. I see.03:53
fructosetinwhiskers: Well? How so?03:53
fructoseOh03:53
LjLcontingocat, nothing new... i'm bored and adding a bunch of feeds to the bot's RSS list. i've decided to add some general health feeds (also Lancet and BMJ open issue), but to do that i have to limit the bot to specific keywords, so it might end up missing some of the items on the covid-specific feeds. but i think it's an okay tradeoff... pretty much every item is going to have "covid" or "coronavirus" or something inside it03:55
contingocatok makes sense03:55
contingocatI opened a covid-19 room on multiplayerpiano and gave a recital of Dies irae motif pieces which went down well03:56
LjLlol03:57
contingocatbut now I think bed. remember to get some rest too my diligent friend03:57
zirpu[m]anyone see the Counterpart series?  one side had a virus that killed 7% of the population in that story.  good show.03:58
zirpu[m]the only good thing about covid-19 is prepping us for a worse case, except here in the USA.  bunch of dummies.03:59
LjLi somehow have difficulty imagining worse than this except for improbable "movie doomsday" scenarios, but, well, my imagination has clearly been proven wrong before03:59
LjLi was imagining a lot of political turmoil in the near future (wars?) partly due to climate change, but honestly, a pandemic, nope, wasn't on my radar04:00
ryoumasame here04:00
zirpu[m]a pandemic would solve our involvement in the climate change sort of.04:00
LjLalthough sometimes i'd read those news of frozen viruses unthawing in Siberia or the like and i'd ponder it for a bit, but not much04:00
ryoumaclimate change, ideologies, dogmas, political extremism04:01
LjLzirpu[m], well, it's already made China pollute less, apparently04:01
zirpu[m]yeah, i read that somewhere.  interesting.04:01
zirpu[m]the economic hit is what will get the attention of the politicians.  which is just another sign of their inadequacy.04:03
LjLi think it's *already* getting it to the point they are sometimes tentatively prioritizing the economy over, you know, people staying alive04:03
LjLsee also: "packages from China are safe"04:04
LjLyes i have a bit of a beef with that one04:04
zirpu[m]i'm more worried about my UPS driver coughing on my package than it coming from china.04:04
tinwhiskersPackages from China usually take about 3-4 months to arrive here but have taken as long as 15 months, so I'm not too concerned about live viruses04:05
zirpu[m]whoever manufactures sugical masks is, i hope, working round-the-clock shifts.04:05
tinwhiskersI heard the US had requested an increase in production of 40% from some mask manufacturers... 40%... wtf?04:06
LjLzirpu[m], the fact that packages from China are likely safe is something i can get on board with04:06
zirpu[m]math is hard for some people, just saying. :-)04:06
LjLwhat i didn't like was 1) the insistence about it 2) the putting it as part of the same level of basic advice as "wash your hands frequently" 3) the fact that it was often accompanied by a "because the virus only survives some hours on surfaces" which is just pulled of someone's ass, because we don't know that04:06
ryoumaLjL: you're saying package from china are likely safe, and that you have a beef.  i'm missing something.04:08
LjLryouma, i think i just explained what my beef is with that advice...04:08
ryoumaah ok ups04:08
tinwhiskershe has a beef with the people spreading FUD about packages from China04:08
ryoumaohhhhhhhhhhh04:08
LjLit's really that way with most of the advice from... everyone, starting with WHO04:08
ryoumaexcept wow online the cmoments are all saying they are getting the wrong product and stuff04:09
LjLand i don't think i am "paranoiac" about any of that, really. it's stuff that if you read the studies, it's just pulled out of thin air. it may be hard to call it "lies" because we don't know it ISN'T true... but we also don't know it IS true04:09
ryoumayeah i'm not afraid of china products, just let them sit for a bit (to be determined)04:09
zirpu[m]when the zombie apocalpyse happens, i'm biting the first zombie i see. :-)04:09
Brainstorm🔸 Spain: +1 cases (now 402) 🔸 US: +1 cases (now 328) 🔸 Bergen County, NJ, US: +1 cases (now 4) 🔸 World: +2 cases (now 102270)04:10
LjLSpain is spiking fairly good now too, isn't it04:11
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 03:04 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: South Korea cases cross 6,700, Facebook temporarily bans face mask ads → https://is.gd/BfB4de04:11
LjLit's pretty much all of western europe now04:11
LjLlol facebook04:11
LjLthe graphs for France and Germany look nearly identical (only cases, not quite deaths), and Spain very close too https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=France;Germany;Spain04:14
LjLUK's a little better, likely due to obvious geographical factors04:14
tinwhiskersIt still hasn't taken off in Africa. An epidemiologist mentioned to me that he thought that was due to SARS-COV-2 not doing well in hot places, but I tend to think it's mostly just luck. It'll be interesting to see though.04:15
LjLtinwhiskers, we do know it hasn't, though? i've repeatedly heard that testing ability is scant, and that isn't too hard to believe?04:15
tinwhiskersyes, good point04:16
LjLalso, Turkey having no cases is just a joke, surely04:16
tinwhiskersit's also doing ok in Australia and that's basically an oven04:16
LjLtinwhiskers, yes, that's another one of those things that have pretty much crystallized as myths i think. "it will get better in warmer weather". the people, maybe reasonable scientists and doctors, who originally said that were mainly HOPING it would, and stating they had no hard evidence whatsoever. but people strip out the subtleties and it somehow became a certainty... depite now data showing that, sadly, no04:17
zirpu[m]wait and see.  hope for the best, prepare for the worst.04:18
LjLi also don't believe that the authoritarian countries are just lying about numbers, fwiw. i don't know about China in particular since China may have motives i can't even dream of, but take Singapore... cases are still rising, they report them, but they're very much under control04:18
fructosetinwhiskers: In the US, it was reported today that only 1895 people have been tested in all 50 states.04:18
LjLfructose, uhm, i had read somewhere, days ago already, that it had quickly gone from 500 to 350004:19
tinwhiskersI agree. I'm not entirely confident China isn't being truthful either.04:19
LjLwell, "quickly"... CDC-quickly04:19
fructoseLjL: I saw it on the public news and just looked up the source... https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/how-many-americans-have-been-tested-coronavirus/607597/04:21
Brainstorm🔸 US: +1 cases (now 329) 🔸 World: +1 cases (now 102271)04:21
tinwhiskersa typical lab should be able to test 1000 people a day. Many can do 6000-10000. Many countries have free/drive-through testing available. 04:22
tinwhiskersIn the US if you get a negative test your insurance likely won't pay for it so who's going to go an get a test when it might cost them $2k04:22
tinwhiskersthose without insurance - don't even think about it04:22
LjLfructose, sounds like they did some (gasp) actual investigative journalism. well, to the extent of calling phone numbers at least.04:23
LjLfructose, uhm i have no idea where i read that 3500 number but when i googled it now, it says they've given the go-ahead for testing all 3500 passengers aboard the Grand Princess, so i guess technically they'll have tested many more people soon04:25
fructosetinwhiskers: There may be a bottleneck with reagents right now04:25
fructoseI don't think the bottleneck is in the labs04:26
tinwhiskersThere was a problem with the primers that the CDC sent out and they had to wait for new ones04:26
tinwhiskersI doubt the reagents are limiting anything04:26
LjLthere will soon be a bottleneck with a bunch of things, due to China closing stuff down :(04:26
tinwhiskersThe failed primers were why labs were asking if they could source their own, since plenty of other places can provide the correct ones.04:27
fructosetinwhiskers: Yeah, sorry, I was lumping in primers with reagents.04:27
tinwhiskersoh, ok04:28
fructoseIn my defense, I've tried to get a biochemist to tell me how to distinguish reagents from other components of a protocol and was told it's not clear and to just call them reagents.04:31
tinwhiskersThe problem more lies with the regulations around who is allowed to be tested. The labs are probably mostly ready to go now having got new primers, but they're not allowed to test people. 04:31
fructoseThat was a problem, but in the US supposedly all it takes is a doctor's order.04:31
tinwhiskersoh. so there will be thousands of tests going on today then...04:32
ryoumawhat is a primer in this context?04:34
LjLi heard something to the extent that there are guidelines but the guidelines allow testing anyway even if the criteria aren't met if the doctors think they have a compelling reason to believe a patient has it04:34
tinwhiskersa primer is a section of DNA about 20 bases long that is used to amplify the viral DNA in a test sample if it exists. 04:35
fructoseryouma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerase_chain_reaction04:35
tinwhiskersyou need two primers for the test, a start (forward) and a stop (reverse) primer.04:35
fructoseThat article refers to primers are reagents, so maybe the biochemist didn't lie.04:35
ryoumai knew it had to do with pcr, but i thought i'd get a quick gloss from somebody here, like "short fragment of single-stranded dna used to compare to somethign"04:35
Brainstorm🔸 Mainland China: +8 recoveries (now 55412) 🔸 US: +1 cases (now 330) 🔸 Harris County, TX, US: +1 cases (now 4) 🔸 World: +8 cases (now 102279), +8 recoveries (now 57447)04:37
tinwhiskersyeah, so PCR multiplies DNA in a sample that matches the DNA between your start and stop primers. So just a tiny amount of viral DNA can be detected.04:37
ryoumahuh, you have like actacg as your start and acgacg as your stop, and anything that goes actacg...acgacg gets reproduced?04:41
tinwhiskersyeah04:41
ryoumaso you reproduce basically potentially a lot of variants too04:41
ryoumacan*04:41
ryoumabut if your primers are too specific then you miss some?04:41
tinwhiskersthat's where the correct primer design comes in. It must select only the right bits04:41
tinwhiskerswhen you gel your sample you can tell if the primers worked or not by the size of the resulting DNA fragments that were multiplied04:42
LjLbut is there are parts of the viral genome that are somehow "nearly guaranteed" not to mutate?04:42
LjLis there are there is?04:43
tinwhiskersLjL: there are places that mutate less frequently, but they look across a lot of different sequences to find good candidates. They also have to look at all other virus sequences to ensure they won't select one of those incorrectly as well. 04:44
tinwhiskersthey use massive databases and simulate the PCR across that database using the candidate primers04:44
ryoumawhat about finding new ones?  what leads to that?04:44
tinwhiskerscurrently we have about 125 SARS-COV-2 sequences04:44
tinwhiskersShown here: https://nextstrain.org/ncov?c=gt-ORF8_84&r=country04:45
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 03:30 UTC: /u/slakmehl: What you need to know about the first case of coronavirus in Hawaii → https://is.gd/wxMArL04:45
ryoumaso, i rely on medicines.  medicines come from chemicals.  chemicals come from china.  will tihs be a problem?04:46
tinwhiskersI don't know who decides to sequence samples or not04:46
ryoumaif you sequence, what exactly are you sequencing?  if you have no database.  i mean, you have tons of dna and rna critters in any given sample right?04:46
tinwhiskersyes, only DNA that matches the two primers will be multiplied (exponentially) so after 20 cycles you have billions or trillions of your target v.s. just a handful of the other things04:48
LjLtinwhiskers, i have a NIH link in the pastebin that i believe has the actual sequences for a few of them... (nextstrain can't due to licensing i believe)04:48
tinwhiskersit's kinda surprising that 20 base primers are sufficient to uiniquely select pretty much anything04:48
LjL<ryouma> so, i rely on medicines.  medicines come from chemicals.  chemicals come from china.  will tihs be a problem?  ←  to put it bluntly, yes, especially given many generics come from India, and India, facing a shortage from China, is blocking exports04:48
ryoumabut then completely new viruses still need to be discovered right?04:48
LjLryouma, so if you rely on critical medicines, please stock04:49
tinwhiskersyes, the primers are specific to a particular virus04:49
tinwhiskersalthough you could probably design primers that would select for any current coronavirus you couldn't be sure that would include the next corona virus04:49
Brainstorm🔸 Ecuador: +1 cases (now 14) 🔸 Inner Mongolia, Mainland China: +2 recoveries (now 67) 🔸 US: +1 deaths (now 16) 🔸 World: +1 cases (now 102280), +1 deaths (now 3496)04:50
tinwhiskersbear in mind "any current corona virus" includes lots of common cold viruses so that really wouldn't be very useful.04:50
Poon%data vietnam04:50
BrainstormPoon: In None, Vietnam, there are 17 cases, 0 deaths (0.0% of cases), 16 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 04:45:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Vietnam for time series data.04:50
LjLryouma, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-5173171904:51
LjLryouma, this lists some of the common things that are likely to be an issue, but i assume there's many more04:51
LjLand now i sleep04:53
ryoumathank you04:57
adventurerGoodnight LjL 04:58
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 03:53 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: South Korea cases cross 6,700, Facebook temporarily bans face mask ads → https://is.gd/BfB4de05:02
Brainstorm🔸 British Columbia, Canada: +1 recoveries (now 4) 🔸 Toronto, ON, Canada: +1 recoveries (now 3) 🔸 Guangdong, Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 1234) 🔸 Jiangsu, Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 602) 🔸 Shanghai, Mainland China: +7 recoveries (now 313)05:17
Brainstorm🔸 Mainland China: +3 recoveries (now 55415) 🔸 US: +1 deaths (now 17) 🔸 World: +1 deaths (now 3497), +3 recoveries (now 57450)05:30
adventurerhttps://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=882835805508716&notif_id=1583555777129830&notif_t=live_video05:37
adventurerAustralian live update.05:37
Brainstorm🔸 Brazil: +1 cases (now 14) 🔸 US: +1 cases (now 331) 🔸 World: +2 cases (now 102282)05:43
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 04:52 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: China posts lackluster trade data, Florida reports 2 deaths → https://is.gd/BfB4de05:53
Brainstorm🔸 US: +5 cases (now 336) 🔸 King County, WA, US: +1 cases (now 59) 🔸 World: +5 cases (now 102287)05:57
subringanyone here doing any simulations (eg seir)?06:04
Brainstorm🔸 Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 55416) 🔸 World: +1 recoveries (now 57451)06:10
Brainstorm🔸 US: +2 cases (now 338) 🔸 Harris County, TX, US: +1 cases (now 5) 🔸 World: +2 cases (now 102289)06:23
dunnptinwhiskers: 4^20 is a big number06:24
tinwhiskers:-) yeah06:25
dunnphard to randomly match something06:25
dunnpyou can also have longer primers06:25
dunnpit just shifts the melting temp06:25
subring4^20 has 13 digits06:26
subringso it's on the order of 1 trillion06:26
dunnpyes06:26
dunnpalso the reagents are not the hold up at all06:27
subringanyone here done any SIR or SEIR modeling of COVID?06:27
dunnpI could run 1000 tests tomorrow06:27
tinwhiskersThat's what I thought06:27
tinwhiskersit's regulations, right?06:27
dunnpits probably that they need to be run in a CLIA lab or something06:27
dunnpyea06:27
dunnpdont know what that is subring 06:29
dunnpuniversity of washington is moving fast to get more rapid testing out though06:31
dunnpshouldn't be long06:31
fructosedunnp: In press conferences they've at least been saying that any lab with the FDA-approved test can run it.06:32
tinwhiskersthat's a a start. sadly many people will never be able to get a test anyway.06:32
subringdunnp: a mathematical model commonly used for epidemic modeling      06:33
dunnpany lab huh... then maybe the FDA test requires them to provide the primers?06:33
fructoseAnd throwing out 1 million as the number of tests they are rolling out06:33
tinwhiskersdunnp: they allowing other primers now too06:34
dunnpI mean I guess it is how many 96 well plates you want to run06:34
fructoseIt's largely automated already, so probably a lot06:34
dunnpwith what UW is reporting, they are just running a single machine06:35
tinwhiskers:-/06:35
dunnpif they wanted to scale up there are probably 100 or so at their university06:35
tinwhiskerslaughable, except not06:36
fructoseI was told the bottleneck was just transferring the samples they were receiving06:36
dunnpwould be a massive effort to coordinate that06:36
dunnpthat makes sense fructose 06:36
fructoseAnd they were hiring lab techs to do that06:36
fructoseAnd working with a company to automate even that, but that was months out06:36
tinwhiskersthe US can't ship stuff but other countries can06:36
dunnpah right subring 06:37
tinwhiskersno matter how you slice it the testing in the US is a huge joke and will remain so for many people06:37
dunnptesting that many people also gets a little pricey 06:38
dunnpso there has to be some funding for it06:38
tinwhiskersyet other countries charge between $0 to around $10006:38
dunnpwell the country is paying for it06:38
tinwhiskersexactly06:38
fructose$12 billion was approved in the US06:39
dunnp^06:39
dunnpyea I don't imagine people will be paying for long06:39
tinwhiskerswell that'll be nice when it becomes available06:39
fructoseI'm not so sure, it's "socialism"06:39
dunnpalready seeing notices from people's insurance that it is entirely covered on twitter06:39
tinwhiskersoh, that's good news at least. what about people with no insurance?06:40
ryoumaindividual testing is primarily for the purpose of knowing what?  deciding to go to hospital?  whether to self-isolate?  whether to ... have everybody in househould take more precautions?  to inform central databases?06:40
fructosedunnp: Only 28 million uninsured people. Low odds any of them get infected though, right?06:41
tinwhiskersheh06:41
dunnpwell I think it will be free soon06:42
ryoumai saw a picture of a country that had a well-designed testing setup.  those who could drive would drive up to a place in a parking lot sort of like a micdonalds booth, get tested, and little risk of anybody getting infected from it06:42
dunnppeople haven't been taking it serious06:42
ryoumaso when tjhey do the hoardign willb e even more?06:43
dunnptesting to try to stop the spred ryouma 06:44
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test) at 05:03 UTC: CoronaVirus_ITALIA: Una vittoria per la la libera conoscenza. Grazie alla petizione per rendere di dominio pubblico oltre 32544 articoli inerenti al coronavirus la scienza dietro al Covid-19 è ora di libero accesso per tutti. → https://is.gd/6nUu0506:44
dunnphttps://twitter.com/GavinNewsom/status/1235740745325142016?s=2006:45
dunnpwe have ordered health insurance companies to waive ALL out-of-pocket costs for preventive coronavirus testing.06:45
dunnpapparently that happend a few hours ago06:46
tinwhiskersnice06:47
dunnpStanford and UCSF are deploying their own tests now06:48
fructoseAnything prevent the insurance companies from saying no and dragging it through the courts? I don't know California law well.06:48
dunnpdono06:49
Brainstorm🔸 Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 55417) 🔸 World: +1 recoveries (now 57452)06:50
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 05:45 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: China posts lackluster trade data, Florida reports 2 deaths → https://is.gd/BfB4de07:01
ryoumai assumed this, but didn't knoww hat was meant specifically: 22:44 <dunnp> testing to try to stop the spred ryouma 07:05
dunnplock down areas with community spread by canceling events and closing schools07:06
dunnpincrease cleaning crews07:07
dunnpetc07:07
dunnpget people who are positive under isolation07:07
ryoumawhat i didn't understand was, why would the individuals being tested pay for it at all if they are being tested by authorities in the first place07:10
dunnpthat I don't know07:11
dunnpif they were in the hospital then the hospital just charges for everything07:11
ryoumatrue07:12
ryoumai mean, sounds like a reasonable thing to say07:12
dunnpand the prices are all inflated which would be why the tests cost so much right now07:13
dunnp$50 tylenol is a real thing07:13
ryoumawhy is that inflated?07:14
dunnpI think that it is a combination of paying for things associated with it like presumably a nurse brought you the tylenol so there is some personel expense07:15
dunnpalso because they have to cover the costs of the people without insurance that don't pay07:15
ryoumaoh yes a single tablet07:16
ryoumaexcept sometimes it is much more07:16
dunnpyes I have a bill that is something liek $13k/min for an OR07:16
ryoumaand they ask you innocently as if they don't know that is what will occur.  want a tablet?07:16
Brainstorm🔸 Switzerland: +2 cases (now 216) 🔸 World: +2 cases (now 102291)07:17
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 06:16 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: 99 new cases and 29 new deaths in China, total 80,651 confirmed cases and 3,070 deaths. → https://is.gd/G8O3DH07:18
Brainstorm🔸 Norway: +1 cases (now 128) 🔸 World: +1 cases (now 102292)07:43
fructosehttps://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/276268807:52
JX7P%data Scotland07:58
BrainstormJX7P: 3 lest ah googled (45 seconds ago)07:58
JX7Pthis gadgie speaks scots anaw07:59
subring%data us07:59
Brainstormsubring: In None, US, there are 338 cases, 17 deaths (5.0% of cases), 15 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 07:25:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.07:59
adventurer%data australia08:00
Brainstormadventurer: In None, Australia, there are 64 cases, 2 deaths (3.1% of cases), 22 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 07:25:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Australia for time series data.08:00
Brainstormadventurer: Mortality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.0% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ of cases undetected), and less than 8.0% (considering only deaths and recoveries).08:00
BubuIIC1%data germany08:06
BrainstormBubuIIC1: In None, Germany, there are 670 cases, 0 deaths (0.0% of cases), 18 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 07:25:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data.08:06
subringwhy haven't any died in germany?08:09
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 07:07 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: China posts lackluster trade data, Florida reports 2 deaths → https://is.gd/BfB4de08:09
adventurerhttps://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/all-in-this-together-virus-in-90-nations-as-officials-warn-of-false-hopes-20200307-p547u7.html08:11
tinwhiskerssubring: I imagine that's just a statistical anomaly rather than entirely down to good management.08:19
tinwhiskersLooking at other countries at the same stage of infection you'd expect about 6-8 deaths so I guess luck could account for that.08:20
tinwhiskersWhat boggles my mind is that Vietnam hasn't had any infections for two weeks after building up to 17 initially08:23
Brainstorm🔸 Mainland China: +5 recoveries (now 55422) 🔸 World: +5 recoveries (now 57457)08:23
fructosetinwhiskers: They supposedly did 1000+ tests too08:35
tinwhiskersYou think they detected cases earlier than other countries so those people got better treatment?08:41
tinwhiskersRather, had better outcomes08:41
fructoseMuch like India, I just find it difficult to believe there aren't more cases given the proximity and population08:46
tinwhiskersOh, I thought you were talking about Germany08:48
tinwhiskersYeah, Vietnam sharing a border with China seems like it might put them more at risk.08:49
fructose95 million people too... didn't realize how big it was until I started looking for outbreak potential08:50
tinwhiskersOh right. That is more than I expected too.08:52
tinwhiskersThey don't seem like the sort of country to hide stats though, although it is kinda communist08:54
tinwhiskersBut fairly progressive08:54
fructoseI thought I heard being a smoker was a risk factor, so maybe this is relevant... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/CigaretteConsumptionPerCapita.svg08:57
fructose(Not that I think it explains Vietnam, I just wonder if there will end up being correlation there)08:58
python476hi back08:59
python476whats up on the front 08:59
tinwhiskersfructose: I think the smoking thing will pan out because it explains the apparent gender difference, which seems far more unlikely.09:06
tinwhiskersOver 50% of Chinese males smoke and only around 2% of females09:08
tinwhiskers(numbers pulled from memory so may not be quite right)09:08
fructosetinwhiskers: http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/health-index09:15
fructosetinwhiskers: That'd probably explain both Vietnam and India09:15
Brainstorm🔸 Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 55423) 🔸 World: +1 recoveries (now 57458)09:17
Brainstorm🔸 Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 55424) 🔸 Norway: +1 cases (now 129) 🔸 World: +1 cases (now 102293), +1 recoveries (now 57459)09:30
JX7P%data Grampian09:41
Brainstorm🔶 World: +27 recoveries (now 57486) 🔶 Mainland China: +27 recoveries (now 55451)09:41
BrainstormJX7P: Sorry, Grampian not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name.09:41
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 08:49 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: China exports plunge; Florida reports 2 deaths → https://is.gd/BfB4de09:50
aradeshhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/5177762109:53
aradesha scottish woman rugby player has tested positive for the virus09:53
Brainstorm🔶 World: +14 cases (now 102307), +1 recoveries (now 57487) 🔶 Germany: +14 cases (now 684) 🔸 Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 55452)09:57
Brainstorm🔶 Hubei, Mainland China: +25 recoveries (now 43493) 🔸 Heilongjiang, Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 403) 🔸 Hunan, Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 960) 🔸 Xinjiang, Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 72) 🔸 Zhejiang, Mainland China: +5 recoveries (now 1154)10:10
adventurerhttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-03-07/tas-tasmanian-coronavirus-management-plan-revealed/1203622610:17
Brainstorm🔸 Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 55453) 🔸 World: +1 recoveries (now 57488)10:23
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 09:23 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: JHU CSSE reports 2 new cases in Iceland, total 45 confirmed cases → https://is.gd/xm6wRi10:24
Brainstorm🔸 Norway: +5 cases (now 134) 🔸 World: +5 cases (now 102312)10:37
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 09:37 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: 1 new case in Senegal, 4 cases confirmed total → https://is.gd/YS7T3O10:41
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 09:56 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: South Korea cases top 7,000; Florida reports 2 deaths → https://is.gd/BfB4de10:58
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 10:13 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: DC Cancels March Comic Con Appearances Amid Coronavirus Concerns | Hollywood Reporter → https://is.gd/EGEahl11:15
Brainstorm🔶 World: +15 recoveries (now 57503) 🔶 Mainland China: +15 recoveries (now 55468)11:17
Brainstorm🔶 World: +303 cases (now 102615), +4 deaths (now 3501), +36 recoveries (now 57539) 🔶 South Korea: +274 cases (now 7041), +4 deaths (now 48) 🔶 Mainland China: +34 recoveries (now 55502) 🔶 Japan: +15 cases (now 435) 🔸 Croatia: +1 cases (now 12) 🔸 Germany: +8 cases (now 692) 🔸 Hong Kong, Hong Kong: +1 cases (now 108) 🔸 Philippines: +1 cases (now 6) 🔸 Thailand: +2 cases (now 50) 🔸 United Arab Emirate11:30
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 10:19 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: South Korea cases top 7,000; Florida reports 2 deaths → https://is.gd/BfB4de11:32
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 10:34 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: JHU CSSE reports 274 new cases in South Korea, 7,041 cases confirmed total. → https://is.gd/xoQdbH11:41
Brainstorm🔶 World: +11 cases (now 102626), +2 recoveries (now 57541) 🔸 Austria: +8 cases (now 74) 🔸 Greece: +1 cases (now 46) 🔸 Mainland China: +2 recoveries (now 55504) 🔸 Norway: +2 cases (now 136)11:43
Brainstorm🔸 Algeria: +2 cases (now 19) 🔸 Kuwait: +3 cases (now 61) 🔸 Mainland China: +6 recoveries (now 55510) 🔸 Fujian, Mainland China: +7 recoveries (now 291) 🔸 Guangdong, Mainland China: +3 recoveries (now 1237) 🔸 World: +5 cases (now 102631), +6 recoveries (now 57547)11:57
fructosehttps://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc200146811:59
fructoseI regard that as deeply concerning11:59
fructose"The fact that asymptomatic persons are potential sources of 2019-nCoV infection may warrant a reassessment of transmission dynamics of the current outbreak. In this context, the detection of 2019-nCoV and a high sputum viral load in a convalescent patient (Patient 1) arouse concern about prolonged shedding of 2019-nCoV after recovery. Yet, the viability of 2019-nCoV detected on qRT-PCR in this patient12:00
fructoseremains to be proved by means of viral culture."12:00
Brainstorm🔸 Hungary: +1 cases (now 5) 🔸 Portugal: +2 cases (now 15) 🔸 Qatar: +1 cases (now 12) 🔸 World: +4 cases (now 102635)12:10
Brainstorm🔸 Hubei, Mainland China: +7 recoveries (now 43500) 🔸 Malaysia: +10 cases (now 93) 🔸 World: +10 cases (now 102645)12:23
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 11:21 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: South Korea cases top 7,000; Florida reports 2 deaths → https://is.gd/BfB4de12:25
Brainstorm🔶 World: +1136 cases (now 103781), +21 deaths (now 3522), +756 recoveries (now 58303) 🔶 Spain: +39 cases (now 441) 🔶 Iran: +1076 cases (now 5823), +21 deaths (now 145), +756 recoveries (now 1669) 🔶 Germany: +19 cases (now 711) 🔸 Henan, Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 1244) 🔸 Slovakia: +2 cases (now 3)12:37
Timvde%cases Belgium12:38
BrainstormTimvde: In None, Belgium, there are 109 cases, 0 deaths (0.0% of cases), 1 recoveries as of Fri Mar  6 13:33:03 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Belgium for time series data.12:38
Timvde"None"? :p12:38
Brainstorm🔸 Finland: +4 cases (now 19) 🔸 Georgia: +3 cases (now 12) 🔸 World: +7 cases (now 103788)12:50
JX7P%cases Scotland12:59
BrainstormJX7P: 3 lest ah googled (45 seconds ago)12:59
BrainstormNew from Reddit Italy live at 11:59 UTC: /u/lessico_: Coronavirus, Zingaretti positivo al test - la Repubblica → https://is.gd/V4lqrq13:01
Brainstorm🔶 World: +11 cases (now 103799) 🔸 Afghanistan: +3 cases (now 4) 🔸 Germany: +6 cases (now 717) 🔸 India: +2 cases (now 33)13:17
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 12:15 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: South Korea cases top 7,000; Florida reports 2 deaths → https://is.gd/BfB4de13:19
Brainstorm🔸 Mainland China: +1 recoveries (now 55511) 🔸 World: +1 recoveries (now 58304)13:30
Brainstorm🔶 World: +62 cases (now 103861) 🔶 Belgium: +60 cases (now 169) 🔸 Poland: +1 cases (now 6) 🔸 South Africa: +1 cases (now 2)13:43
LjLTimvde, Belgium doesn't exist, as we all know13:44
LjLi'm going to get to work to reduce the bot's update frequency agian, i've got a better idea than yesterday's mess13:45
Brainstorm🔸 Bahrain: +2 cases (now 62) 🔸 Mainland China: +6 recoveries (now 55517) 🔸 World: +2 cases (now 103863), +6 recoveries (now 58310)13:57
LjLTimvde, is belgium spiking today?13:57
LjL<tinwhiskers> fructose: I think the smoking thing will pan out because it explains the apparent gender difference, which seems far more unlikely.14:01
LjL<tinwhiskers> Over 50% of Chinese males smoke and only around 2% of females14:01
LjLnumbers are also what i've seen, and i've also thought "yeah that must definitely be due to the smoking"14:01
TimvdeLjL: I haven't heard an update today yet14:13
TimvdeWhich is why I asked the bot14:13
TimvdeBut that are also still yesterday's numbers14:14
TimvdeAha14:14
LjLTimvde, but it went +6014:14
Timvde60 new patients, 169 now14:14
LjLTimvde, are you stocked up on things that will quickly become harder to find?14:17
TimvdeNot really14:18
TimvdeAlthough we have a decent amount of rice, pasta and risotto lying around14:18
LjLTimvde, if it is anything like Italy, food won't be a huge issue. people will hoard some, but supermarkets will easily be able to restock. on the other hand, face masks... well, face masks are already gone worldwide, so don't even bother with them... but buy hand sanitizer if you don't have that. hand sanitizer was a big issue for a while14:20
LjLand you do want to have some of it in your pocket at all times now14:20
LjLespecially when you take public transport or go to the supermarket or other places where touching contaminated things is highly likely14:20
LjL(at home, just wash your hands)14:21
TimvdeThey said us that healthy people don't need face masks, we should leave them for doctors and people who are already sick14:31
LjLTimvde, as long as there is such a shortage, yes you should, but honestly, it's not true we don't "need" them14:32
TimvdeI could buy some hand sanitizer, I guess14:32
pwr22<LjL "i'm going to get to work to redu"> What happened yesterday?14:32
LjLTimvde, also in some countries crazy things like toilet paper ran out, but that was Japan, Japan is weird14:32
LjLpwr22, well if you look at the backscroll, bot updates are just a little too frequent... now it's only going to send updates if at least one of them has a >10 increment14:33
LjLif i've done it correctly this time, anyway, since i already tried yesterday and gave up, because my mind wasn't very lucid14:33
LjLtoday the right way to do it suddenly seemed obvious :P14:33
pwr22Ah, it only updated every 30 mins right?14:37
pwr22I didn't mind that personally14:37
pwr22I'm wondering if trump's going to demand that cruise ship build a wall to help out out of US waters 😆14:38
LjLpwr22, well, no, not necessarily... tinwhiskers changed that to 15 minutes on my request (i do need faster response anyway, or else when i find issues with my codes, it takes forever to fix them if i have to wait 30 minutes to confirm they work). but also, my bot itself checks tinwhiskers's data every 800 seconds... upped it slightly from the original 30014:38
pwr22*keep it out14:38
LjLpwr22, i hope someone manages to override Trump in the management of COVID-19 or else the US is doomed worse than Italy14:39
pwr22Ah ok14:39
muhammadanasnaee> 🔶 World: +62 cases (now 103861) 🔶 Belgium: +60 cases (now 169) 🔸 Poland: +1 cases (now 6) 🔸 South Africa: +1 cases (now 2)14:39
muhammadanasnaeeIs this official or rigged number I suspect the affected are much higher than this number probably 500000+ and deaths are 35000+14:39
LjLthey are official numbers, with "unofficial" updates for more completeness, but the unofficial ones are really still coming from the JHU14:40
LjLsadly the bot cannot divine the real numbers, whatever they are :)14:40
pwr22Do you think he's asked about nuking it yet?14:40
pwr22I think he probably has14:41
pwr22<LjL "sadly the bot cannot divine the "> Yeah, where would we get the data from?14:41
pwr22Oh out of interest, how does that matrix reply show on the IRC side?14:41
Timvde<Name "First few words of quote"> Your reply14:43
LjLpwr22, in a very annoying way :P14:43
LjLyeah, what he says14:43
LjLbut i've gotten used to it, can't help it when so many people are actually "IRCing" from Matrix now14:43
LjLspecifically 19<pwr22> <LjL "sadly the bot cannot divine the "> Yeah, where would we get the data from?14:43
LjLanother thing that's quite annoying is when people on Matrix edit messages... that wasn't always a feature (only removing was possible before, and that simply did nothing on the IRC side)14:44
LjLnow every edit is posted as a new message with a "*" tacked on... which becomes horrible if someone repeatedly edits their message14:44
LjLi have a feeling sooner or later the Matrix and the IRC camps will throw a fit at each other. bridging seems cool but it doesn't come without issue, more so when the features and cultures start diverging14:45
LjLi guess right now i'm in both camps14:45
LjLif you know what i mean14:45
pwr22Huh, I'd rather it quote the whole message14:45
LjLpwr22, that might not be a great idea due to the overall lesss-than-512-char length limit of IRC14:46
Timvdepwr22: then it should split in two messages14:46
LjLand the tendency by Matrix people to write longer messages (because there is no such limit)14:46
pwr22Ah14:46
TimvdeWhich could be fine, unless people overuse the feature14:46
TimvdeLjL: I'm not sure if that's actually common14:46
pwr22If I was on the IRC side I wouldn't find what it does "annoying" though personally14:46
LjLTimvde, that's just because you're used to my unusually lengthy IRC messages that get split into two or three parts :P14:47
TimvdeI mean, IRC clients also just split long messages into multiple lines14:47
TimvdeBut it just rarely happens, because people like their enter button14:47
LjLTimvde, sadly not all IRC clients, some just cut if off14:47
pwr22Is that message length in IRC a global thing or network specific?14:47
LjLpwr22, global, although networks can make it shorter than 512 (not sure if the specs allow making it longer than that)14:48
TimvdeNetwork specific, but I think 512 is already on the long side :p14:48
LjL(anyway in practice it's never longer than 512)14:48
pwr22I'm sure I've written longer than that many in one message on IRC before but maybe I'm just not good at guessing the length14:49
LjLpwr22, it's almost 4 SMS, if that tells you anything14:49
Timvdepwr22: your client probably split it14:50
pwr22Yeah I guess14:57
LjLpwr22, oh, and here's an example of a long message sent on Matrix *sigh* i think this is the very worst thing15:04
LjLpwr22, 18* 26muhammadanasnaee sent a long message:  < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/fLpGbXBVFAoYjczENgdiTdfY >15:04
LjLmuhammadanasnaee, i absolutely don't understand your question15:05
LjLalso please try to keep messages in one line... this is also an IRC channel and multiple line messages are unwieldy for most people here :(15:05
LjLalso your naturalnews link just sends me back to the naturalnews.com homepage15:06
muhammadanasnaeeI had the only link so that's why I shared it what I want to know is that the numbers mentioned in the link are they true or not ?15:06
pwr22LjL: yeah that's definitely not great15:06
muhammadanasnaee> also your naturalnews link just sends me back to the naturalnews.com homepage15:07
muhammadanasnaeeI don't think so.15:07
muhammadanasnaeeLet me check once again.15:07
pwr22Probably worth IRC people giving feedback to the bridge developers15:07
LjLmuhammadanasnaee, well, i clicked it, and i was redirected to the homepage...15:07
pwr22Or even making PRs themselves15:07
muhammadanasnaeehttps://www.naturalnews.com/15:07
muhammadanasnaeeCheck now.15:07
LjLpwr22, as far as i'm aware, at least the way "reply" messages are handled has been criticized innumerable times, yet the bridge developer(s?) have always refused to change it. that's from hearsay, i haven't looked at the issues.15:07
muhammadanasnaeeSo you don't like inline replying it doesn't goes off the context at least...15:08
pwr22LjL: it's probably not true unless there's a good reason for it - they are generally a very reasonable bunch and quite passionate about bridging15:09
pwr22The IRC bridge is one of the "official" ones I think15:09
pwr22So they'd definitely not want to be pissing off the IRC networks15:09
LjLmuhammadanasnaee, ah so you *were* really just pointing to the homepage. okay, i see. well, i would say that calling the official estimates "rigged" is very strong, and misleading, language. it's *possible* that in some countries (maybe China, according to some) they are trying to minimize new case reports. however, in general, the numbers are lower than reality simply because we haven't tested everyone. it's not a mystery than more people are sick than 15:09
LjLthe official numbers. the official numbers are of people who have been tested, but "officials" don't deny that there are almost certainly many more that haven't been tested yet15:09
LjLpwr22, well, i don't know, but i've seen this thing mentioned multiple times. i don't know any of the Matrix.org admins. i believe that the bridge itself is developed by LeoNerd. i don't know much further about that15:10
pwr22muhammadanasnaeem: we're less conspiracy focussed in this channel 😁. Though I suspect the US cases are probably lmited by testing right now15:10
LjLas in, LeoNerd is not a Matrix.org admin, it's his own thing... although obviously i'd expect Matrix.org admins (as well as freenode staff) to have a say on the matter, in practice15:11
LjLmuhammadanasnaee, personally, if you ask me, i think the "500000+ infected" number is too high, but possible. the "35000+" dead is just silly and untrue.15:11
pwr22LjL: LeoNerd wrote the initial Perl bridge but it's not even written in Perl anymore so I think now. Also it's usually HalfShot who fixes it iirc15:11
LjLpwr22, well, that's how much i know and am up to date 'about the whole thing15:12
pwr22We can solve the problems by getting everyone to join on Matrix anyway 😉15:12
LjLi kinda like IRC ;(15:12
LjLi've been here since the 90s, it still works15:12
LjLi don't dislike Matrix, either, but i'm not sure i'm ready to just ditch IRC15:12
pwr22😝15:12
pwr22That's the beauty of the matrix bridging 😃15:13
pwr22You don't have to15:13
pwr22Anyhow, I'll just up about matrix for like 30 mins 🤣15:14
subringpwr22: what is that character you keep putting at the end of each line?15:22
pwr22An emoji15:23
subringoh ok15:23
pwr22Standard unicode stuff15:23
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 14:16 UTC: South Korea coronavirus cases top 7,000; Florida reports 2 deaths: The number of cases across the globe grew to at least 102,469, while deaths rose to 3,491 as of Saturday. → https://is.gd/BfB4de15:23
pwr22Though i'm not sure what the bridge does with it15:23
dunnpemojis work for me in irssi - never seen them in irc before though so strange15:38
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 14:40 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: 60 more cases in the Netherlands, total confirmed 188 → https://is.gd/rssa6Z15:41
python476do you think it's foolish to go jog in the woods ?15:46
LjLpython476, why would it be?15:47
python476LjL: I don't know, inhaling tons of cold air, exhausting your body a little ..15:48
python476just being overly cautious15:48
python476I need to de-stress and jogging is usually how I do15:48
izjogging is probably safer than using public transit15:48
python476true15:49
zirpu[m]dunno about that, some crazy bus drivers out there. :-)15:49
LjLpython476, unless you overdo it, i don't see how some exercise would make your immune system *worse*. afaik evidence points to the very opposite15:49
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 14:46 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Pope cancels major public appearances as cases surge in Europe → https://is.gd/K5bpyH15:49
python476just don't jog in front of buses zirpu15:49
python476LjL: you know some paper about immune boost from jogging ?15:49
LjLlol, no15:49
python476also I take some vitamin c+d supplements15:50
zirpu[m]what's the pope afraid of?  that his god won't just magic the virus out of him on a prayer?  sheesh, what a hypocrit.15:50
LjLpython476, fwiw, the immune system being *too* strong may also make this virus worse from all-system inflammation, according to some15:50
subringzirpu[m]: stop being an idiot15:50
python476LjL: like immune inflammation overload  ?15:50
LjLsubring, that seems a bit too much of a reaction, although i think zirpu[m] could have spared the pope joke15:51
LjLpython476, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_release_syndrome15:51
zirpu[m]in his defense, he is at risk, born in 1936.15:52
LjLzirpu[m], he was also "off sick" a while ago, with rumors abounding, but, he actually tested negative15:52
zirpu[m]the flu at his age can be deadly.15:53
izgod did save him!15:53
iz:b15:53
python476anyway, gonna jog with a gun15:53
python476so I can shoot viruses on sight15:53
izhehe15:53
python476oh god, virus on my nose #SHOOTS15:53
izremember if you are jogging and you encounter a wild virus, you should try to make yourself appear as tall as possible, putting your arms above your head15:54
python476:DD15:54
zirpu[m]i had a friend that encountered a bear on a hike once.  she decided to just start singing loudly.  the bear hissed at her, so she shut up and continued on.  so lessosn learned:  bears dance, but they don't sing. :-)15:56
izif you encounter a bear, sing never give you up to the bear so it leaves in rickrolled shame15:58
python476bbl16:01
LjL!16:01
zirpu[m]wow.16:02
sneepcanceling events is something you do to protect the public, not the people holding the event16:03
zirpu[m]handshakes may stop being a thing, finally.16:03
dunnphttps://www.cnn.com/travel/article/italy-lambrusco-wine-from-faucet-castelvetro-trnd/index.html16:05
dunnpsome perks in Italy still16:06
dunnp;)16:06
zirpu[m]man.  i have the rickroll earworm now. gah!16:06
zirpu[m]i look forward to the day when we have tiny hologram projectors and can rickroll people with The Man himself. :-)16:08
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 15:16 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: 4 new cases in Slovenia, national total 12 → https://is.gd/OUNFmH16:24
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 15:38 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Pope cancels major public appearances as cases surge in Europe → https://is.gd/K5bpyH16:42
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 15:55 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: 2 new cases in the Czech Republic, total confirmed 21 → https://is.gd/MO0x4m16:59
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 16:07 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Pope cancels major public appearances as cases surge in Europe → https://is.gd/K5bpyH17:17
python476hi back17:17
python476no covid seen in the woods17:17
python476they're hiding 17:17
LjLHurray, now we know where to flee17:20
python476yeah, let's pack everybody in the woods17:20
python476so now we're cold and promiscuous17:21
python476oh god 17:28
python476finally reading https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/journal-plague-year-180965222/17:28
python476it's basically trump PR strategy17:28
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 16:23 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Dozens trapped after hotel used for quarantine collapses in China → https://is.gd/K5bpyH17:34
LjLThere's like... the whole city outdoors, more kids than I ever remember seeing concentrated in parks... I get that they need to get out of home since it's the weekend and they can't even go to school anymore, but, then when they show us empty squares on TV, that's just where foreign tourists (very reasonably) void going. But instead the Milanese don't really appear to give a shit... it looks nothing like a quarantine. But this is actually scary to me17:50
LjLAnd okay, I'm outdoors too, there IS a need to avoid going crazy indoors, but I'm very carefully going to the emptiest possible streets17:50
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 16:35 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: 16 new cases reported in Japan, total confirmed 447. → https://is.gd/VjTR9u17:52
python476just when we have tech that makes people have infinite amount of "distractions" indoor, they get out more than ever17:52
python476HAHA17:52
python476isn't it ironic ~_~17:52
spybertvery.  They like to video themselves outdoors and post it on facebook :))17:53
python476humanity:-500000:2020, cause of death, overwhelming stupido-ironia17:54
aradeshwhen i was out today i wsa thinking about all of the things i was touching that could have been contaminated...17:56
aradeshthe cash machine buttons, then my wallet, and my phone17:56
aradeshthen my laptop at home17:56
python476we should all be wearing alcohol distributing gloves17:58
slash_it's especially bad when you have to use public transport, too many things that are touched by too many people18:02
slash_here in the subway you need to push a button to open the doors, it's touched by thousands of people daily18:03
python476slash_: I lazily let people open doors last time I took the subway18:04
python476cold calculation in my head18:04
slash_python476 that is what I am doing too haha, I just go to the door where there's already people waiting to exit18:04
slash_at least the check in/out system is by using a contactless card, and they banned cash payments in december, so that's nice at least18:06
slash_cash payments in public transport only I mean (to clarify)18:06
python476i did exchange coins at the bakery18:07
python476pastry will end me18:07
aradeshslash_: i use public transport, and i'm ofte the person opening the door as i somehow tend to stand in the right place18:10
slash_the bread departments in supermarkets here are bad as well, they look like this: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DJBR6SuWAAAqBZf?format=jpg&name=medium18:11
aradeshguess should open the door with my elbow18:11
slash_basically they're self service and people take the pastry with their bare hands..18:11
slash_aradesh if that works, the buttons here are often too small for that18:12
aradeshyeah, ours are big and chunky18:13
slash_in older train carriages you need to push the button quite far too..18:13
aradeshslash_: given that, i just updated my grocery delivery to have the bread that is in a plastic packet...18:14
slash_spray it with alcohol before pushing :p18:14
aradeshwhat does alcohol do?18:14
slash_it kills bacteria and viruses18:14
slash_it's generally the best for quick desinfection18:15
python476dissolves lipid membrane in cells18:15
slash_although not ideal for washing hands18:15
slash_python476 yes exactly18:15
python476pot ash is great to clean hands18:15
slash_yeah and just plain old soap18:15
python476the only negative side effect is that you don't have hands anymore18:15
python476but they're very clean18:16
slash_alcohol is good to desinfect surfaces though18:16
python476listering contains alcohol18:16
python476listerine*18:16
python476I'm gonna rob pharmacy's dental shelves18:16
slash_not all, there's alcohol free listerine too18:16
slash_it's called "sensitive mouth" or something18:16
dunnpyou need 70% too18:16
dunnpnot just a little alcohol18:17
slash_i use 99% isopropyl alcohol for cleaning doorknobs and stuff18:17
aradeshwhy is it not ideal for washing hands?18:17
LjLaradesh, it's aggressive, slightly (not very) toxic, and makes your hands dry. having dry hands, in turn, makes infections more likely because your own "oil" is protective18:18
slash_aradesh because in addition to bacteria and viruses it damages the protective layer of your hands18:18
aradeshwe have alcohol based hand-wash in our office, and it definitely makes my hands dry18:18
slash_it's bad for living things in general basically :P18:18
LjLaradesh, that's why hand gels that have alcohol (isopropyl or otherwise) also have glycerine and/or other things to moisten your skin18:18
dunnpslash_: 99% isnt as effective as 70%18:18
dunnpyou should dilute it18:18
slash_dunnp why? because of quicker evaporation?18:18
dunnpno18:19
LjL<slash_> here in the subway you need to push a button to open the doors, it's touched by thousands of people daily  ←  here it's even sillier, they made new trains (and also buses and everything) with those buttons, but they have never been operational. some people push them anyway but it does nothing, the doors just open18:19
dunnpslash_: https://blog.gotopac.com/2017/05/15/why-is-70-isopropyl-alcohol-ipa-a-better-disinfectant-than-99-isopropanol-and-what-is-ipa-used-for/18:20
LjLbasically, the water helps make the virions explode18:20
LjLthat should be taken as a metaphor :P18:20
slash_dunnp "The presence of water is a crucial factor in destroying or inhibiting the growth of pathogenic microorganisms with isopropyl alcohol. Water acts as a catalyst and plays a key role in denaturing the proteins of vegetative cell membranes."18:20
slash_thanks this is good to know18:20
dunnpfor disinfecting lab benches we use 70% EtOH18:21
slash_I'll make a bottle 70/30 alcohol/water18:21
dunnpisopropyl just as good though18:21
Specmmm isoprop18:22
python476interesting factoid18:23
slash_LjL we have bicycle crossings here, that have a button you can push to cross, but in many places they don't actually do anything18:25
slash_LjL they are just there to give people the sense that "something is happening"18:26
dunnpmaybe should just buy latex gloves and wear them when out?18:26
dunnpcan still get those on amazon18:26
slash_gloves work yeah, just gotta know how to take them off properly18:27
LjLslash_, lol, that reminds me of something that just happened when i was outside half an hour ago, there was a pedestrian-only light (they are rare here) which had a button, which i think actually *does* need to be pressed in order to get a green light, unlike most of those buttons which do nothing... we didn't press it, we just crossed when no cars were incoming, and a group of old ladies on the other side actually yelled at me "it's red! it's red!"18:27
LjLi wanted to be like "and why the hell do YOU care?", but i just said "sure, but it won't get green for you unless you press the button, you know"18:27
LjLdunnp, yes, we bought a couple packages of thin gloves18:28
LjLif you have to go to supermarkets etc, those seem like a good idea to me18:28
LjLdon't hoard them please... one box contains a ton of them18:28
LjLmore than enough hoarding has already occurred18:28
slash_LjL there's a poorly adjusted light bicycle crossing light here where one side gets green, but the other side is still red for a while... it's really annoying18:29
dunnpI think that there is a pretty robust supply of gloves18:29
LjLslash_, i find many of our lights are set up terribly18:29
LjLslash_, where do you live?18:29
slash_LjL netherlands18:29
LjLat least you *have* bicycle paths there18:29
LjLwe're starting to get them though, slowly but surely (mainly because the EU gives you money when you make them)18:29
slash_LjL a lot of badly configured crossing lights here too18:29
LjLalthough... maybe everything will stop now :\ i fear this virus will kill the world economy real bad18:30
slash_LjL maybe.. on the other hand, bicyles and bicycle lanes are cheaper than regular cars and roads so who knows18:30
slash_LjL which country btw?18:32
LjLslash_, more relevantly, which city/region :\ Milan18:32
slash_ah shit you're in the middle of it all18:33
LjLyeah18:33
slash_in any case I would prefer a bicycle over public transport currently18:33
LjLthat's why i said it felt a bit surreal to see so many people outdoors not caring at all18:33
LjLsurreal / worrisome18:33
LjLif this were China, Milan would be on lockdown18:33
LjLinstead they've told the elderly to stay home as much as possible - apparently the non-elderly took that as an invitation to go out as much as possible18:34
slash_I've seen 0 people with masks so far..18:34
LjLwith tons of kids, who apparently don't get this seriously, but are very good at spreading it18:34
slash_no panic buying etc either18:34
LjLslash_, i have, in the metro, but then afterwards i've stopped taking the metro, because... well18:34
LjLslash_, and yet the netherlands is VERY densely populated, when it hits you hard it could be pretty bad18:34
dunnpchecking out my local costco to see how bad it is there18:35
slash_LjL just yesterday they recommended people in one of our provinces to stay at home if they have any symptoms like cough/fever/etc18:35
slash_LjL but people don't really seem to take it seriously18:35
LjLyeah, same here18:35
LjLand it's much worse here, so... i don't get people18:35
slash_LjL we just had carnaval in that province, people from the whole country went there, and from other countries too18:36
slash_now it has the highest amount of cases with lots of cases where they can't trace the origin18:36
LjLslash_, but also i don't get the media, and i don't like them. the word "Milan" was practically never stated about this epidemic, despite the fact the epidemic is like 90% of TV coverage these days. i assume they think if they say "Lombardy" but never mention Milan as the seriously huge issue in Lombardy if it gets infected, then magically it won't happen18:36
slash_LjL we've had several cases of people that had visited just Milan18:37
LjLslash_, they cancelled the Venice carnival here, which is usually a big event, but i saw footage with lots of people in carnival masks anyway... *and* face masks at the same time. if those are the morons who hoarded away all face masks, then honestly i kind of hope they catch the virus18:37
LjLslash_, yes, of course, it's obvious to anyone who can put 2+2 together that Milan is full of this. the initial big cluster is just 50km from Milan, and people who live in those towns very, very often are commuters to Milan18:38
LjLbut if you can't put 2+2 together, apparently the media prefer you to continue doing so18:38
zirpu[m]the costco i visited yesterday was all out of masks, sanitizer, etc.  also rice and beans.  ppl finally taking preppers seriously.18:38
slash_LjL yeah I read that... here they postponed some carnival parades due storms, and now they are going to do those parades to catch up lol18:38
LjLslash_, i think the ones who're saying authoritarian regimes will get out of this much better off are, sadly, going to be proven right18:39
LjLi still don't endorse authoritarianism, but i have to observe this fact18:39
slash_LjL because it would "be a waste to have built those parade carts" lol18:39
zirpu[m]agreed.18:39
zirpu[m]about authoritarn regimes not parade cards. :-)18:39
slash_democratic societies still have emergency powers, for... emergencies18:39
LjLwell then i don't know when they're going to seriously use them18:40
slash_but it seems that in Europe it is not an emergency..18:40
zirpu[m]they are increasingly hard to implement though.18:40
LjLi mean, we *are* in a state of emergency, there *has* been a quarantine declared in two places, and they *made* country-wide laws limiting some activities18:40
LjLbut it's really all so... bland18:40
slash_yes, but look at Singapore, it has proven to work18:40
LjLit won't contain the virus, it won't even really *try*18:40
slash_in Singapore they started temperature testing tourists/visitors TWO DAYS after the outbreak started in Wuhan18:41
slash_on januari 218:41
LjLthey've basically told us, we have to stay at least 1m from each other, so cinemas etc have to either close down, or make people sit more than 1m apart. also, we are recommended not to shake hands.18:41
zirpu[m]eventually airtravel will need to come to a halt for a while.18:41
slash_and mandatory quarantine for everyone who has been in contact with someone proven to be infected18:41
LjLi mean, sure, that's going to save the day!18:41
slash_how are you going to stay 1m away on public transport during rush hour lol18:41
LjLslash_, in Italy they started checking temperature pretty early in airports, and we were also the first to block all direct flights with China. but then that's useless without Schengen being suspended, since other countries didn't do the same thing18:42
LjLand i'm usually a huge supporter of having Schengen stay as open as possible, and i'm really pissed off at countries like France having kept it suspended since 2015 with the excuse of ongoing terrorism18:43
LjLbut... now is just a different game18:43
slash_LjL we have Schiphol which has huge amounts of visitors from all over the world daily... we do not even do temperature checks.. sigh18:43
slash_LjL EU has a big problem yeah, we need all countries to take measures, it doesn't work otherwise18:43
LjLslash_, oh yeah they showed on TV the part where people were "complaining" they couldn't stay 1m away on trains... and the worse part... about half of the commuted trains had been CANCELLED. guess why? because they are directed to disinfect the trains, and they couldn't disinfect enough of them. so now people are even *more* crammed than usual on the trains18:44
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 17:30 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Dozens trapped after hotel used for quarantine collapses in China → https://is.gd/K5bpyH18:44
LjLthis is the kind of ridiculous... that... i can't even... sometimes i just laugh and think "okay, i know, it's italy" but now i'm not feeling in a funny mood18:44
slash_what annoys me the most, is authorities and media downplaying the issues. I understand not wanting to cause panic, but just be clear about the situation dammit and give CLEAR AND CONCRETE instructions on how to prevent infections!18:45
slash_better a little panic early than a lot panic when things get out of control18:46
zirpu[m]and don't let idiots speak their "hunches" as if they know what they're talking about.18:46
LjLslash_, and in my opinion they create MORE panic (for me at least) when they act like this. for example, one of my pet peeves is, they've shown SO often footage of people in full suits spraying something (presumably disinfectant) all over the streets in China, Korea, and other places. they've kept showing it. they've NEVER once commented on it, said what it was, what they were doing and why it was necessary. then they tell us "oh it only survives for a few 18:47
LjLhours on surfaces". then why the hell would you disinfect streets? EXPLAIN18:47
zirpu[m]facts are needed, not opinions.  2 people go in a room, 3 opinions come out. :-)18:47
slash_zirpu[m] it's also very important government and government agencies "speak as one" so to say, be CLEAR and do not spread conflicting messages18:47
zirpu[m]true.18:47
zirpu[m]the street thing is just security theater like in the airports.18:47
slash_agreed, the lack of information makes people speculate and come up with their own theories and ideas18:48
slash_so we have this bunch of students, around 900 who went to Northern Italy this week for holiday, and everybody was critizing them for it due to the risk18:49
slash_and now they have returned, and 4 are being tested due to symptoms, but the government said they will not confirm/deny if they are positive/negative18:49
slash_to clarify: it was from one student organization those 900, all in the same location18:50
zirpu[m]i hope we all live to see a well made documentary about this. :-\18:50
LjL%cases italy18:50
BrainstormLjL: In all areas, Italy, there are 5883 cases, 233 deaths (4.0% of cases), 589 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 18:33:03 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Italy for time series data.18:50
LjLgood lord18:50
LjLbut why didn't the bot post the update, pfff18:50
LjLor *any* update for that matter. i seriously can't make my code work for longer than ten minutes at a time18:51
slash_also they are in the north of the country, where there are currently 0 cases, so when they say a case is found in that area everyone is going to assume it is those students18:51
dunnpevery shop around here is sold out of isopropyl alcohol18:51
dunnpwow18:51
slash_i bought mine online18:51
LjLdunnp, here they were sold out of denaturated ethanol first18:52
dunnpslash_: from where?18:52
LjLi bought 1L isopropyl on amazon for €14 (pretty high, i know)18:52
slash_a Dutch webshop, it was even a discount lol18:52
slash_lemme check18:52
dunnpah18:52
slash_3 for price of 2 (3x 1L)18:52
dunnpi cant find it on amazon18:53
slash_was 2 weeks ago though18:53
slash_dunnp try to find a beauty webshop, they use it as well18:54
slash_for cleaning nails18:54
zirpu[m]the highest moral standard in capitalism is profit.  so the politicos saying companies shouldn't gouge customers is just naive or hypocracy.18:55
slash_it's still available on amazon in EU18:55
slash_for reasonable prices too18:55
zirpu[m] * the highest moral standard in capitalism is profit.  so the politicos saying companies shouldn't gouge customers is just naive or hypocrisy.18:56
LjLzirpu[m], they shouldn't say they "shouldn't", they should immediately pass emergency laws to force them18:56
zirpu[m]gawd i hayt inglc speling18:56
slash_dunnp amazon.de might ship to NA, worth a shot maybe18:56
LjLslash_, i wouldn't try that, you get to pay Customs and probably wait a good while18:56
LjLand it might be a restricted good18:56
dunnpi found some at walmart18:57
LjLethanol is even kind of restricted within the EU18:57
slash_LjL yeah that's true, although the price is still low so maybe worth the risk18:57
slash_LjL ethanol yes, but isopropyl is not restricted as it cannot be consumed18:58
slash_it's quite poisenous18:58
slash_or toxic18:58
slash_I always mix those two up18:58
LjLslash_, yeah, but i don't know about America, and it might still be restricted as flammable or otherwise dangerous18:58
LjLand i know anecdotically that when the USPS "flag" you as an importer of annoying things, your future packages start always taking forever to arrive18:59
zirpu[m]ethanol is a fuel additive here in the US afaik.18:59
slash_LjL yeah might be so, there should information about this on the customs website for your country18:59
slash_zirpu[m] yes same here19:00
LjLslash_, hopefully the customs website for the US is more usable than ours then because ours is hopeless :P19:00
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 17:58 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: Dozens trapped after hotel used for quarantine collapses in China → https://is.gd/K5bpyH19:00
slash_LjL well, it's sortof doable, but yes it is not always very clear19:01
LjLslash_, i've only dared to order from outside of the EU a couple of times... when i bought my Bip (a cheapish but kind of special smartwatch) i got a lot of headaches from customs19:02
LjLtook forever, then i had to provide proof of purchase (to show them the price)19:02
LjLthe watch was €50, i had to pay €25 in taxes+duties19:02
LjLbut gearbest refunded the €25, because of reasons19:02
LjLso at least i only paid what i was initially meaning to pay19:02
slash_LjL so it appears that "alcohol for non human consumption" is excise free when importing to the EU19:03
LjLbut it was definitely a very different thing from buying from within the EU, which usually takes like 3 days to arrive19:03
slash_LjL yeah things like that are a hit/miss situation when importing bth19:03
slash_tbh*19:03
Specdenatured ethanol is not restricted in the states19:04
LjLSpec, isopropyl also?19:04
slash_denatured alcohol should cover isopropyl alcohol19:06
aradeshi've been better at not touching my face. i catch my self about half way towards scratching an itch most of the time19:06
slash_denatured should mean "alcohol made unsuitable for human consumption", and should cover various forms19:07
slash_such as isopropyl19:08
LjLbut isopropyl is not *made* unsuitable, it is just naturally so :P19:08
LjLso yeah it should reasonably fall under importable types, but it doesn't strictly fit the definition19:08
SpecLjL: isoprop is not restricted19:08
slash_well, it's made like that yes, but for EU customs at least it falls under that definition too19:08
Speconly pure ethanol is restricted due to alcohol tax monopoly bullshit19:08
Specslash_: sometimes isoprop is put into ethanol to make ethanol denatured :P19:09
slash_Spec yes that is true as well19:09
slash_Italy 1247 new cases, shit!19:12
slash_LjL is the Italian government going to take more measures you think?19:13
Specyes19:14
Speclike all governments everywhere, they'll say it's fine until it's not and then overreact and become draconian19:14
Specor maybe that's just my internal expectations for my own government19:14
slash_Spec well mine is doing that as well...19:15
slash_it's just so frustrating19:15
slash_to me it looks like they are barely trying to contain it19:16
Specslash_: what government do you swear fealty to?19:17
slash_when you look at Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan and China it's like Europe does barely anything...19:17
LjLslash_, what Spec said19:18
slash_Spec well I wouldn't go as far as swearing fealty.. but I am from the Netherlands19:18
LjLwe will *have* to become like Wuhan unless we take drastic measures (but not so drastic) now19:18
LjLbut instead we're like... yeah... let's close schools and hmmm maybe let's recommend them to avoid shaking hands and kissing19:19
Specmaybe don't touch eyeballs in public19:19
LjLwhich is honestly very annoying. now i can't kiss anyone! oh wait, i never used to in the first place19:19
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 18:17 UTC: /u/BlatantConservative: 3 new cases in Luxembourg, total confirmed 6 → https://is.gd/NQS2FM19:19
slash_maybe if they show some damn leadership... right now their actions are minimal and they are risking the lives of potentially hundreds of thousands of my fellow citizens19:20
petersjt014[m]Just lick them instead, easy fix.19:20
LjLyeah Spec you may not be aware that in Europe we mostly aren't required to profess our faith in our government every day at school, somehow, even though that might appear strange :P19:21
Specweird.19:21
LjLi know, those euros19:21
slash_yeah we only do that on King's Day when you are legally obligated to feel aroused everytime you see the color orange or the Dutch flag19:22
Specyou mean instilling mindless nationalism during youth upbringing isn't of paramount importance in european countries?19:22
slash_other than that not really19:22
LjLSpec, well, it is, but only every other 50 years19:22
Specnot even at barbeques???19:22
slash_Spec only when there's beer involved19:22
petersjt014[m]spot the 'murican19:22
zirpu[m]i have no idea what goes on in the US public schools now.  i didn't have kids, so was spared hearing about it.19:22
LjLzirpu[m], but presumably *you* went to school?19:23
zirpu[m]:wave:19:23
petersjt014[m]Mostly more of the same.19:23
SpecLjL: every 50 years :P19:23
SpecLjL: it's about time to begin again19:23
zirpu[m]yes, and i remember doing the stupid pledge of alligence crap.  i also know how to write in cursive.  my nephew doesn't and that really pisses me off.19:23
LjLIndia has also been going all "stand up during the anthem before movies or you'll be beaten up and/or arrested, even if you're actually paralyzed on a wheelchair and physically can't stand up" lately :\19:23
LjL(* that actually happened)19:23
LjLzirpu[m], i kinda forgot how to write in cursive... or how to handwrite at all ;(19:24
zirpu[m]war never changes.19:24
LjLi've sometimes looked at my old school stuff, i'm like "wow that guy could write goood"19:24
slash_I do not want to act as if we are better though, they have been pushing nationalist nonsense on us for years. For example they tried to pass a law where schools where obligated to sing the national anthem19:24
SpecLjL: modi doesnt' seem like a very great person19:24
LjLslash_, keyword being "tried", i hope19:25
slash_but tbf our national anthem is pretty dope19:25
LjLSpec, not very19:25
LjLslash_, hmm it's one of the few european ones i don't actually know19:25
slash_LjL yes, there is no law that requires it19:25
LjLi'm not a nationalist, but i have a thing for anthems19:25
LjLyoutube time19:26
slash_LjL really? it's the oldest national anthem still used!19:26
slash_LjL although the lyrics are quite strange if you do not know the context19:26
LjLslash_, i thought that was the Venetian anthem, but maybe if it's no longer a country then it doesn't count :P19:26
LjLslash_, the lyrics are quite strange by default because dutch is all weird sounding and generally terrible19:26
slash_LjL yeah not the oldest ever, but the oldest that is still a national anthem19:26
LjLwell the Venetian anthem is official still, i think, but obviously only at a regional level19:27
slash_LjL as a Dutch person I must agree that Dutch is a really weird language lmao19:27
LjLnow i can't even sing out loud because i got a sore throat :( it was one of the things i was doing these days to release all the tension!19:27
Specsore throat? *looks for plague doctor*19:28
LjLslash_, yes, i've found most Dutch people do, in my admittedly small sample, so if it feels weird from both sides, maybe it is just weird :D19:28
LjLSpec, nah i talked for two hours yesterday19:28
BrainstormNew from Reddit Italy live at 18:26 UTC: /u/pixelcraftables: Coronavirus, l'appello di Borrelli (Protezione civile): "Vinciamo questa battaglia se cambiamo modo di vivere" - Repubblica Tv - la Repubblica.it → https://is.gd/tRgUdD19:29
LjLSpec, also it's always at the left side, related to the left ear (as in i feel pain in the ear too), so it's mostly the thing i've had for years. mysterious, but not covid19:29
LjLokay now we're calling it a "battle"19:29
LjLlet's see when we catch up with "war"19:29
LjL(the above sais that)19:29
LjLje sais19:29
slash_LjL our languages has so many "exceptions to the rule" that I wonder if the language rules are even a thing19:29
LjLslash_, spoilers: they aren't. and i'm kind of an amateur linguist (not a very good one, but enough to tell you languages are all kind of whatever speakers say)19:30
slash_LjL it is why it is very easy to recognize a non native Dutch speaker, because they will always make mistakes19:31
LjLslash_, y'all seriously have an anthem where you say you honor the king of... Spain?19:33
LjLthat's pretty weird y'know19:33
LjLslash_, well that's also because all Dutch speak English and will typically switch to English as soon as they realize someone isn't proficient in Dutch, so no one ever really gets to learn it :P19:33
slash_LjL yeah it's the context that you're missing19:33
LjLi'm not entirely missing it, i studied some history in school too19:34
LjLi am sketchy on the details. but still, it's weird!19:34
slash_LjL he's basically saying "why you suddenly being such a dick Spain? We've always treated you with respect"19:34
slash_so it's meant to be a bit sarcastic19:35
LjLalso geëerd? how can that even be a word19:36
slash_LjL you can read it like this: "we have always honored the King of Spain (implied: so why does he not honor the Dutch people?)"19:36
slash_LjL "altijd geëerd?" means "always honored"19:37
LjLi know, it came with an english translation :P but just saying you've got weird words19:37
slash_oh hell yeah!19:37
slash_we should really make a Dutch 2.019:38
LjLyeah19:38
slash_the current language is a mess19:38
LjLlet's call it German19:38
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 18:37 UTC: Coronavirus live updates: New York declares emergency; quarantine hotel collapses in China: About 30 people remained trapped after a five-storey hotel being used for coronavirus quarantine collapsed in the Chinese port city of Quanzhou. → https://is.gd/K5bpyH19:38
slash_LjL you can run, be we have bicycles19:39
LjLoh snap19:39
slash_although we're still waiting for the Germans to return a bunch of them after WW219:39
LjLSpec, also btw... if this was a worrisome sign about Iran, then what about now https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2020/mar/07/it-has-arrived-italian-democratic-party-leader-announces-he-has-coronavirus-video19:40
LjLslash_, get in line, Greece is first19:40
slash_we can forgive the bombardment of Rotterdam, but the stealing of bikes? No!19:40
slash_LjL they stole Greek bicycles too?19:41
LjLwell no they stole other things, but the Greeks need the bikes more because they have no petrol for their cars19:41
slash_an EU wide program to promote bicycle usage would be pretty great tbh19:42
slash_bike lane from Athens to Amsterdam!19:43
LjLmeh. the bot should have posted a case update, i can see that in my logs, yet it didn't19:43
slash_I like this site for updates: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/19:43
LjL🔶 World: +17 cases (now 105664) 🔶 Westchester County, NY, US: +30 cases (now 57) 🔶 US: +15 cases (now 376) 🔸 Canada: +6 cases (now 60) 🔸 Georgia: +1 cases (now 13) 🔸 Iraq: +6 cases (now 54) 🔸 Norway: +5 cases (now 155)19:43
slash_seems very quick to update19:43
LjLslash_, that site is one of several in the list in the topic link, but please have a look at the offloop site, it's run by tinwhiskers here and grabs data from several sources so it's pretty up to date19:44
LjLit's also better for analyzing the graphs, despite the UI being crude19:44
tinwhiskersslash_: that site is used for updates19:44
slash_ohh thanks19:44
Specoh man i am loving my government19:45
SpecBut neither the CDC nor the coronavirus task force chaired by Vice President Mike Pence would say who made the decision to forgo the WHO test and instead begin a protracted process of producing an American test, one that got delayed by manufacturing problems, possible lab contamination and logistical delays.19:45
slash_tinwhiskers is a table like on worldometers.info possible? I find it a very nice way to get an overview19:45
tinwhiskersslash_: just use their one :-)19:46
slash_tinwhiskers alright :)19:47
Speci'm glad i don't work for CDC anymore :P19:47
tinwhiskersI don't plan to compete or duplicate anything. I just wanted to be able to compare time series and couldn't find anything that did it19:48
LjLSpec, #classifiedleak19:48
tinwhiskersAs soon as someone produces another time-series comparison tool I can drop mine19:49
slash_tinwhiskers alright, in any case thanks for your work!19:49
LjLslash_, anyway look at the other links too, they kind of all have their own strengths19:50
LjLthe SCMP has a ton of interesting graphs19:50
slash_yes I look at SCMP too19:51
slash_lot's of good sources in that link!19:51
BruntLIVEEaRTH is pulling the reset switch 19:52
LjLSpec, this entire section is far from reassuring, when combined with italy's mortality data trend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019#Epidemiology19:53
slash_it's not the end of the world BruntLIVE19:53
LjLslash_, if you have more please suggest19:53
ubLIXahem: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615330/best-worst-coronavirus-dashboards/19:54
slash_LjL all sources I use are already in that document19:56
LjLi guess i did a decent job then19:56
slash_yeah it's quite extensive!19:56
LjLubLIX, and the worst!19:56
LjLSpec, "Not all dashboards are created equal, nor do all people have access to the same dashboards (for instance, US sanctions prevent Iranians from accessing the one run by Johns Hopkins University)" ← you're the worst19:57
BruntLIVEstation in life or money will not help u 19:58
BruntLIVECORONA is an equal opportunity virus19:58
slash_a COVID-19 dashboard is never late, nor is it early, it appears precisely when it means to19:58
tinwhiskersNo, it's not19:58
tinwhiskersThe virus is definitely ageist and biased against retired folk20:00
zirpu[m]also against anyone with pre-existing health conditions, usually old folks.20:01
slash_yeah I've reported the virus' twitter account20:01
slash_#CANCELCOVID1920:01
tinwhiskersHeh20:01
Spechaha20:01
Brainstorm🔶 World: +267 cases (now 105931), +5 deaths (now 3567) 🔶 France: +233 cases (now 949), +5 deaths (now 16) 🔶 Egypt: +33 cases (now 48) 🔸 Ireland: +1 cases (now 19)20:01
zirpu[m]it's a terrible drama. poorly written.  shouldn't be renewed next season.20:01
slash_almost 4k cases today20:02
tinwhiskersI'm finding it very compelling. Comedy, drama...20:02
slash_2 days ago it wasn't even 3k20:02
slash_many countries are also not testing enough, so we probably have way more infected people20:03
Specmy country is making seeeeemingly criminally negligent decisions20:05
ubLIXUS, Spec?20:05
slash_the US is going to be hit hard I think :(20:05
slash_so little testing...20:05
tinwhiskersIt sure was a circus but I don't think it's actually made much difference anyway20:06
slash_it is impossible for the US to have less daily cases than Germany or France tbh20:07
tinwhiskersThe lax infection precautions were more of a problem20:07
BubuIIC1%data Germany20:07
BrainstormBubuIIC1: In all areas, Germany, there are 800 cases, 0 deaths (0.0% of cases), 18 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 19:50:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data.20:07
Specslash_: lol, DC!20:08
Specslash_: can test like, 25-50/day20:08
tinwhiskersslash_: it's entirely possible at this early stage20:08
Speclol.20:08
tinwhiskersLol20:08
Speclaughably appaling20:08
Specappalling, even20:08
slash_there are several clusters in the US that cannot be traced20:08
Specyes, and unrestricted travel20:08
slash_no way that the current numbers reflect reality20:08
BubuIIC1Mmh, 800 is less increase than expected. Maybe numbers aren't all reported because weekend.20:09
Specslash_: absolutely not20:09
Specbut we have a very stable genius leader who assured me it's aight20:09
slash_the German numbers are restriced by testing capacity as well20:09
tinwhiskersIt's well known there is untraced community spread20:09
Specyes20:10
Specis that confirmed for nyc?20:10
slash_Spec but regardless of the stable genius, the US is underperforming MASSIVELY here...20:10
tinwhiskersDunno20:10
BubuIIC1<slash_ "the German numbers are restriced"> Charité does 500 tests/day I've heard. There are many more labs that also do tests.20:10
Speclol20:11
Spec> Cuomo said the new patient wasn’t symptomatic when she landed, and she only recently developed respiratory symptoms associated with COVID-19. As a result, he said, he doesn’t believe the woman was contagious when she arrived in New York and took a private car to her home — even though U.S. and world health officials say the disease can spread before symptoms show.20:11
LjLBubuIIC1, i'm kind of perplexed by no deaths over 800 cases20:11
BubuIIC1Not sure if that's currently hitting any limits.20:11
LjLi mean, good for germany, but it's odd20:11
slash_BubuIIC1 is 500 a day enough?20:11
Specjust went through a fuckin airport20:11
tinwhiskersNot even close20:11
Specbut used a "private car" so it's ok20:12
BubuIIC1slash_: it's one lab.20:12
LjLSpec, did i show you the other thing (mostly stemming from another ISS press release, but it includes some extensive age group and other data that i hadn't found before for italy)?20:12
SpecLjL: it's up in the ISS?20:12
Specthat's a reach20:12
LjLSpec, the ISS is so out of the realm of what they can handle, they may as well actually be in orbit20:12
tinwhiskersSo what's the ISS?20:13
slash_BubuIIC1 alright, so the testing capacity seems ok? But are enough potential cases tested you think?20:13
LjLtinwhiskers, Istituto Superiore di Sanità, italy's CDC of sorts20:13
LjLtinwhiskers, they released a ridiculous press release which i showed to Spec. it looks like some newspaper headlines. the headline makes Italy sound good, if you actually read it, it sounds bad20:14
LjLSpec, bleh... can you load this without an unremovable banner ad popping up on top? https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Flecconotizie.com%2Fcronaca%2Flecco-cronaca%2Fcoronavirus-la-mappa-del-contagio-in-lombardia%2F20:15
Specthere's a close button in bottom left20:15
tinwhiskersslash_: case tracking was primarily to be able to trace contacts and prevent the spread in the containment phase. That phase is arguably over now for many places so it's more just about reporting now I think. 20:15
Specoh yeah and that ugly banner20:15
Speclol20:15
tinwhiskersA positive test may be required due to regulations in some countries to get hospital treatment too though20:16
slash_tinwhiskers yeah, I think so too, EU governments at least have been very lax at containment, the virus will become endemic and we must now focus on mitigation and reducing load on the healthcare systems20:16
slash_so that we can handle this long term20:17
tinwhiskersYeah, quite possibly20:17
slash_it is critical that we prevent healthcare systems from becoming overwelmed20:18
LjLubLIX, hmm, at the end of it, i think the only map that's good from that article that isn't a region-specific map is https://www.healthmap.org/covid-19/ which actually shows where cases are *within* countries like Italy, something you usually only see on Italian-language pages20:18
tinwhiskersAgreed but a Wuhan style lockdown will not be appreciated by many20:18
LjLubLIX, it's a bit ridiculous they rate pros and cons mostly as "this is all dark and gloomy" :P20:18
Spectinwhiskers: and hasn't really been shown to be effective yet, right?20:19
LjLSpec, well, could you read it anyway?20:19
SpecLjL: ya20:19
ubLIXLjL: yep lol20:19
LjLSpec, anything unsettling?20:19
tinwhiskersSpec: it seems to have been extremely effective (if you can trust the numbers coming out of China)20:19
slash_the quarantines in China seem to work yes.20:20
slash_But, they will be useless if the rest of the world fails to contain the virus20:20
Spectinwhiskers: well, but like, they haven't returned to normal life20:20
slash_then the virus will simply return, China cannot have half the country on lockdown for years...20:20
tinwhiskersSpec: the aim being to slow the progress to allow medical systems to cope. Arguably they have slowed it too much20:21
LjLSpec, well i'll tell you what i find unsettling... it says 309 in intensive care, that's over 2612 patients at that time, which makes it 11.8% which is a bit... fucking scary. the other thing is "positive healthcare personnel is 12% of the total"20:21
tinwhiskersThey now have many hospital beds empty20:22
LjLSpec, also, i saw a more up-to-date thing today that basically shows *nearly all* the patients in Lombardy as being hospitalized, with only a very marginal number at home. so that means... most of the ones that were self-isolating at home ended up in hospital anyway eventually? geese20:22
Spec:-/20:23
SpecLjL: have you checked in on the pope?20:23
slash_in any case.. it is a good idea to stockpile stuff so you can handle a 1 month+ quarantine at home20:23
LjLSpec, oh, well, actually it changed a bit since i last saw it a couple of hours ago. now more patients are at home (but still many more in hospital). scroll down to where it says "L’andamento delle 5 regioni con più contagi" and then look at Lombardy, the legend should be readable: https://lab24.ilsole24ore.com/coronavirus/20:23
LjLSpec, the pope actually tested negative :P20:24
tinwhiskersThat's... Good?20:24
LjLtinwhiskers, psychologically for many people, i guess20:24
slash_well this pope is kinda nice, so I suppose20:24
tinwhiskersFair :-)20:24
MephMaybeSlash, you say that, but Australia is a shit show at the moment, no one can buy toilet paper because mass hysteria, so people are buying all the toilet paper they can, and people who just want to get one or two packs can't even do that.20:24
LjLSpec, you can hover on the bar chart to see the exact numbers20:24
tinwhiskersYeah, "stockpiling" is not good advice to give.20:25
LjLSpec, do you see how many more are in intensive care in Lombardy even compared to other regions, nevermind other countries?20:25
LjLare we just so good that we can put everyone in ICU just for the hell of it20:25
slash_MephMaybe yes, I understand, but it is better to scare people into a panic when things are still OK tbh20:25
tinwhiskersBuying a few extra items each time you go shopping to allow for stock to be managed is probably a better approach.20:26
tinwhiskersThere's no need to panic buy20:26
slash_MephMaybe look at Sweden, a few years ago their government spread pamphlets promoting prepping for disaster and war, in a looming emergency it is better to "panic" early20:27
LjLMephMaybe, slash_: this has happened repeatedly in other countries (Japan, Italy, etc) before. each of those countries, and then now Australia, had an opportunity to learn from that, and pass emergency laws requiring limited amounts of purchase of essential good per person/households. more authoritarian countries did that. we didn't. is it really good to be "free" in these case?20:27
Specslash_: 1month+ in quarantine is a loooong time20:27
SpecLjL: you mean to say it was announced he tested negatively20:27
LjLSpec, lol, okay, yes, that20:27
tinwhiskersslash_: that's not panic. That's being prepared20:27
slash_Spec: yes it is, but China has extended quarantine to 28 days20:27
LjLSpec, if he's positive chances are he'll die soon though, he's already missing half a lung20:27
MephMaybeSlash: Not really..? If i walked down to my local super market if to get say, pasta, rice, or toilet paper if i run out today, i wouldn't be able to. At all. Even if i travelled cross state. It's really that bad. Media is making covid way more dangerous then it actually is. 20:29
Specslash_: i need to catalog all of my foods and see how long we can last20:29
slash_tinwhiskers being prepared means doing it before any form of disaster, panic is when the disaster is already occuring and people are trying to "prep" en masse at the same time20:29
tinwhiskersslash_: yes, and there still plenty of time to do that now without panic buying.20:29
Spec^20:29
slash_tinwhiskers that is true20:29
slash_tinwhiskers now is a good time to prep20:29
Specshould i go to costco and buy all the toilet paper, then?20:29
Spectbf, a good time to prep was in january20:30
Specor really just live life prepared :D20:30
slash_Spec no you should go to Costco AND wallmart and buy all of the toiletpaper!20:30
Speci'm only partially prepared, it's easier to speak than do20:30
slash_toiletpaper will be the post-corona currency guys20:31
ubLIXtinwhiskers: there might still be plenty of time if everyone was a rational automaton20:31
slash_but really, people seem to severely overestimate how much toiletpaper they need lol20:31
MephMaybeAlready is man. I've literally seen people selling singular rolls of toilet paper for $5-10AUD. 20:31
tinwhiskersubLIX: well that's why we don't want people giving advice to stockpile and make matters worse20:32
slash_you won't need to shit if you don't have food20:32
ubLIXwell there's regimes: early january - buy two of everything during your weekly shop; and now: rationing20:32
mefistofeles%data Chile20:32
Brainstormmefistofeles: In all areas, Chile, there are 5 cases, 0 deaths (0.0% of cases), 0 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 20:17:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Chile for time series data.20:32
mefistofeles%data Colombia20:32
Brainstormmefistofeles: In all areas, Colombia, there are 1 cases, 0 deaths (0.0% of cases), 0 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 01:43:02 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Colombia for time series data.20:32
tinwhiskersubLIX: it's not at that stage in most places yet20:33
tinwhiskersSure, some20:33
mefistofelesso underdiagnosed in those two, for sure20:33
MephMaybeMefistofeles: Hey! We sorta have the same name. Neat. 20:33
mefistofelesMephMaybe: heh, hey20:34
tinwhiskersMost places if you still just go ahead and buy twice the normal amount you'll be prepared by the time the SHTF20:34
Spectinwhiskers: what if instead i buy all the toilet paper?20:34
Specnothing else, really. just toilet paper.20:35
tinwhiskers:-/20:35
LjLcan't you people just use bidets like civilized humans?20:35
tinwhiskersHeh20:35
ubLIXthis toilet paper thing seems like a fascinating experiment in psychological contagion20:35
slash_tinwhiskers I have a good supply, but it's what I am doing, just go to the supermarket daily and buy 2-3 days worth of food, people here will look at you funny if you buy 20 cans of beans at once..20:35
Specslash_: who gives a fuck?20:35
slash_Spec well maybe my neighbors, I do not want anyone to know that I have a fuckload of food when SHTF20:36
tinwhiskersLjL: dude, I don't even have a flush toilet, let alone a bidet!20:36
Spectinwhiskers: :D20:36
LjL!20:36
tinwhiskersThe leaves here are kinda shiny and slippery though so I really want toilet paper20:36
LjLaww20:36
slash_Spec in times of crises it is important to look like a regular person imho20:36
Specslash_: what if i never look like a regular person D:20:37
ubLIXslash_: send gps coordinates of food stash20:37
slash_Spec buy guns!20:37
Specslash_: i don't have any guns!20:37
Specslash_: it's okay, i got some beans.20:38
tinwhiskersThe local governor had just declared an island that will be used for quarantining the sick here. It's just an island covered in bush. No buildings, no facilities, no water. Wtff.20:38
tinwhiskers*has20:38
Specslash_: will my food supply be at risk, or my P100 filters?20:38
LjLi don't condone hoarding personally. stocking, sure. yeah, even stocking if everybody does it all at the same time will be hard on supplies, but manageable. theoretically it would be better if everyone were a prepper i guess but they just aren't, it's not everybody's hobby. still, bottom line: buy your medicines because you may have shortages later, buy some canned food, buy whatever you think is right... but not in amounts that will take it away from others20:38
Specthis conflicts with: be prepared for a 30 day isolated quarantine :P20:39
slash_Spec possible both.. there's no way to tell how bad things will get atm20:39
tinwhiskersNo, it doesn't!20:39
Specthat's 1lb of food per person per day right? so 120lbs of food for me?20:39
tinwhiskersLol20:39
LjLin a 30-day isolated quarantine you are provided with necessities unless you are in a country that you probably should have fled from before20:39
slash_Spec but maybe don't advertise your stack of 9000 P100 masks I suppose20:39
Specslash_: i wish i had that many :P20:40
SpecLjL: if your government is competent20:40
SpecLjL: i've seen how FEMA does things.20:40
slash_Spec how many do have exactly? and what is your address?20:40
Specslash_: :D20:40
slash_Spec asking for a friend20:40
Specslash_: i have enough to leave my  house a couple times to get supplies during extended quarantine, and no more :(20:40
Specslash_: and i have them for spraying polyurethanes / sanding lead paint/etc :P20:41
LjLSpec, still, while i'm all for being selfish most of the time, it doesn't see very moral to me to leave the shelf where hand sanitizer is empty (and then, often, either resell it, or use it gratuitously when you are at home and could just wash your hands instead)20:41
SpecLjL: yes20:41
Speci'm more concerned about food than hand sanitizer, lol20:41
Brainstorm🔶 World: +40 cases (now 105971) 🔶 US: +19 cases (now 395) 🔶 Greece: +20 cases (now 66) 🔸 Norway: +1 cases (now 156)20:41
slash_Spec in case things get really bad.. don't let your neighbors see that you have them20:41
ubLIXLjL: i'm not convinced even the UK will manage "provision of necessities" during crunch times20:42
slash_Spec survival instinct is strong in humans20:42
Specslash_: strong in me :D20:42
Specjust put up CONTAMINATED sign on doors, sorted20:42
ubLIXLjL: our government has made statements such as "we won't let anyone lose out as a result of epidemic and mitigations", but this just seems too fanciful to me20:43
slash_Spec yes, but people who are not prepared... they can go crazy20:43
slash_Spec it is very important to try to fit in with the rest when things go really bad, you really do not want to stand out20:45
ubLIXslash_: there is a counter argument: when things go apocalypse pear-shaped, your efforts and success with revival of community constitute your best chances20:46
slash_I like this video to explain it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3Wz7fC7tOY "How to be a gray man"20:47
slash_ubLIX yes, you should show your skills and usefullness to your community20:48
ubLIXright, but you have to join/form a community first20:48
slash_ubLIX but do not just give away the fact that you have like 6 months of food stored for no good reason20:48
ubLIXagreed20:48
slash_communities already exist, neighborhoods will band together20:49
slash_did you see the videos from Wuhan? where whole appartment buildings designate people to gather groceries and supplies?20:49
slash_it's pretty amazin20:50
ubLIXread about that20:50
aradeshdo we get a lot more flus and cold viruses in general now days that we live in a globalised world?20:51
Speci do not have 6 months of food :P20:51
aradeshi can't imagine that if you lived in a farming village where people didn't travel much, that you'd get much exposure to new colds on a regular basis20:51
slash_it is important to try to help/assist people in your neighborhood20:52
slash_try to become part of the community when shtf20:52
slash_don't lock yourself in your house with 6months of food when everyone is working together20:53
tinwhiskersslash_: I'm not sure that helps much when a disease is in play. Better to stick to yourself and leave assistance up to the trained professionals for the most part.20:55
aradeshi wonder how they test for coronavirus20:55
tinwhiskersJust do what the officials tell you to do.20:55
ubLIXeven in America, tinwhiskers?20:56
tinwhiskersaradesh: currently using PCR, but there are antibody tests due soon20:56
tinwhiskersAntibody tests are a quick field test that changes color pretty much immediately20:56
ubLIXi joke. the thrust of your point is right20:56
LjLKIND OF BREAKING: draft decree about to be approved by the Italian government to make all of Lombardy (and some adjacent provinces) a quarantine area, with entry and exit forbidden20:57
aradeshPCR test - they duplicate it to be on a larger scale, and then they can test it with more traditional methods like chemical properties?20:58
LjLwho was the other Lombard here20:58
LjLm-something20:58
aradesh%covid uk20:59
tinwhiskersaradesh: pcr to multiply the target dna and then gel electrophoresis or similar to test of it was multiplied (i.e. if it was present)20:59
Brainstormaradesh: In all areas, UK, there are 206 cases, 2 deaths (1.0% of cases), 18 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 18:43:05 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=UK for time series data.20:59
Brainstormaradesh: Mortality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.3% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ of cases undetected), and less than 9.5% (considering only deaths and recoveries).20:59
slash_tinwhiskers if we face quarantines such as in Wuhan it might be worth it to offer the service of gathering supplies/groceries though.. if you have the protective gear you can make yourself a very valued person in your local community20:59
contingoLombardy includes Milan, which includes LjL!20:59
LjLcontingo, i know!20:59
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 19:57 UTC: VP Pence says 21 coronavirus cases on California Grand Princess cruise ship: Vice President Mike Pence said Friday 21 people aboard the Grand Princess cruise ship idled off the coast of California have tested positive for COVID-19. → https://is.gd/X4PWjV20:59
contingoOK just in case you hadn't realized. LjL what province is your other place in?21:00
tinwhiskersslash_: yes, you might be able to volunteer to be one of said officials, but don't wing it21:00
LjLcontingo, the province is Brescia, but sadly that's still Lombardy21:00
LjLALMOST Trentino but not quite21:00
tinwhiskersWe need people who have been trained a little or they may do more harm than good when "assisting".21:00
LjLcontingo, Lombardy is about 11 million people btw21:00
contingowell I guess at least you can still to-and-fro if for some reason that's desirable21:00
LjLone sixth of the country21:01
LjLcontingo, well i don't know what they'll actually declare, maybe we won't be able to leave provinces even... but i don't know if they have enough police force for that21:01
tinwhiskersslash_: I mean, I don't want you trying to help me if you don't really know what you're doing and risk giving me the disease instead of preventing spread.21:02
slash_tinwhiskers I mean it's basically just being a delivery person, but people will appreciate it as they do not need to put themselves at risk21:02
tinwhiskersI'd rather that be organised centrally21:03
slash_yes agreed21:03
tinwhiskersThis is not expected to be so dire that all our systems collapse. If it were then winging it might be all you can do 21:03
slash_tinwhiskers I did not mean a full collapse, just when you face a severe quarantine such as in Wuhan21:05
tinwhiskersI still don't think you want potentially infected volunteers running around in a situation like wuhan either21:05
slash_tinwhiskers people assign a person per building to gather supplies, so that the vast majority is not at risk for infection21:06
tinwhiskersThe authorities are managing fine there without well-meaning volunteers screwing things up21:06
contingoif this gets to a point where we no longer can get groceries delivered than my local ghetto community will more likely descend into open gang warfare than into some kind of shopping collective21:06
slash_tinwhiskers no, but it is better to have one person, instead of hundreds running around21:06
tinwhiskersYes, but in an organised manner, not just people deciding to do it their own way21:07
tinwhiskersThat's not how they do it in wuhan as far as my understanding goes21:07
slash_tinwhiskers it seemed quite organised yes21:07
contingoLjL, reading21:08
tinwhiskersPeople are allowed out once every week to get groceries for their own household.21:08
tinwhiskers(the once per week thing changes a bit depending where you hear it)21:08
tinwhiskersBut they don't have a single person from the building doing deliveries. That seems like a good way to infect everyone21:08
slash_tinwhiskers but that is what they are doing though21:09
tinwhiskersThat's not what I've heard21:10
slash_tinwhiskers the people who get the groceries are in fully covered suits, they cannot transmit if they are infected21:10
contingoLjL out of what's there what are the most pressing papers for me to form a view on?21:10
tinwhiskersI heard it was per household, not per building21:11
slash_they are like literally in full body suits and stuff21:11
tinwhiskersAnd the video I've seen does not show people fully protected like that21:11
slash_tinwhiskers yes by the governments orders, but this was community organized, not mandated21:11
slash_tinwhiskers yeah not everyone does it like that of course, at it is not obligatory21:12
tinwhiskersThat's exactly what I'm saying we shouldn't do. People might mean well but may be causing problems21:12
tinwhiskersDo what the authorities tell you to do21:12
slash_not sure if I agree...21:13
slash_my government is doing a terrible job21:13
tinwhiskersWell that's true (assuming US)21:13
slash_if I get any symptom I am staying at home, period21:13
adventurerWhere are you slash_ ?21:14
slash_I don't care if my doctor says it is not needed21:14
tinwhiskersRight. I think that's what the recommended advice is21:14
slash_adventurer Netherlands21:14
slash_tinwhiskers only for one province lol, for the rest only if you have "severe symptoms"... sigh21:14
adventurerKorea is good how they test anyone free in drive though....it's like if someone thinks they have it and a too poor for a doctor then they could get tested that's good21:15
tinwhiskersWhat you shouldn't be doing is coming to with your own plan to assist that gets in the way of the official plans and may do more harm than good because frankly you are not trained21:15
adventurerSouth Korea21:15
slash_tinwhiskers I just look at where containment is succesful...21:16
slash_tinwhiskers my government's actions aren't really working so far21:17
tinwhiskersYes, well organised centrally, not vigilantes21:17
slash_then what do you do when there is no proper centrally organised response?21:18
tinwhiskersslash_: what country are you in?21:18
slash_Netherlands21:18
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 20:16 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York declares emergency; quarantine hotel collapses in China → https://is.gd/K5bpyH21:18
slash_my government is only acting reactive21:19
slash_in fact they said last month that the chances that the coronavirus would appear in the Netherlands was almost 0%21:20
slash_I mean really?21:21
tinwhiskersHeh21:23
Spec"only serious cases should be screened" mentality is great21:23
Specoh good, new york declared emergency21:23
tinwhiskersYeah, that's pretty crazy21:23
slash_no it's worse21:23
slash_they said: only serious cases that have DIRECT LINK with areas with corona virus should be screened21:24
Specyeah21:24
slash_and then last sunday, they relaxed testing requirements so that people with just the symptoms could get tested21:25
slash_and then the confirmed cases EXPLODED21:25
slash_who could ever have thought?21:25
tinwhiskersWell, they missed the opportunity to do any containment with that policy. Silly. Hopefully they will implement some sort of lockdown to slow the spread and allow emergency services to cope.21:25
tinwhiskersIf they don't do that then a lot of people will die unnecessarily21:25
slash_we failed containment as soon as we started..21:26
tinwhiskersYeah, but most places did21:26
slash_a lot of people will die :(21:26
tinwhiskersYes, but that can be still be minimised21:27
slash_I hope so man...21:27
tinwhiskersIf you compare the best and worse case scenario. Total lockdown with government supplied food (not say that's practical) and doing nothing the difference in deaths would be enormous. The reality will hopefully lie somewhere in the middle and not at the "do nothing" end.21:28
slash_they said that when IC beds run out they will place sever patients with the virus in senior care facilities... I mean really?? You're gonna place infected people IN THE SAME PLACE as the people who are most vulnerable???21:29
tinwhiskersHeh21:29
tinwhiskersMaybe they'll move those people out 21:30
slash_yeah there was A LOT of criticism from parliament on this21:30
Specit's weird21:30
Specto see china's reaction and just like21:30
slash_so hopefully they wont do that21:30
Speccarry on mates21:30
slash_tinwhiskers they said they won't, it's a "low risk" or something21:31
tinwhiskersDickheads21:31
Specya'll're making me wanna go buy toilet paper in obscene quantities21:32
Speccan you imagine this but instead of sars, severe liquid shits21:32
tinwhiskersWell, we'll learn a lot of things that should not be done from this whole thing, and then promptly forget it for the next one21:32
adventurerhttps://7news.com.au/travel/coronavirus/epping-high-school-to-re-open-on-monday-after-coronavirus-scare-c-734305?fbclid=IwAR0tW2eJhCOtvS_1qEqzYgqnRrCKeW1-kxG2jS6GkacggLdZpzrPESrE28w21:32
Spectinwhiskers: yes.21:32
LjLcontingo, Spec: oh shit, the decree actually says movement in and out of Lombardy AS WELL AS INSIDE THE TERRITORY (so presumably between provinces? municipalities? unclear to me for now) will be barred21:33
tinwhiskersLjL: that's good news21:33
SpecLjL: excellent21:33
LjLwell i'm glad you're all happy21:33
LjLi feel a bit different about it21:33
SpecLjL: so you are isolated now?21:34
tinwhiskersThat's what needs doing though21:34
slash_tinwhiskers which is stupid, we've been here before.. there are studies from the Spanish Flu that conclude: quarantine fast, quarantine early, isolate infected from the healthy and you will save a lot of lives21:34
slash_it's not rocket science21:34
tinwhiskersslash_: yeah. Politicians.21:34
LjLSpec, my mother's relatives don't live technically *in* Milan. if they stop movement between municipalities... this won't be good for my mom21:34
Specslash_: and i guess the rocket science part is: wide spread testing is necessary to quarantine effectively21:34
SpecLjL: :(21:34
LjLSpec, and neither does my sister's boyfriend methinks21:34
Brainstorm🔶 World: +14 cases (now 105985), +2 recoveries (now 58441) 🔶 King County, WA, US: +12 cases (now 71), +3 deaths (now 15) 🔸 Austria: +2 cases (now 81) 🔸 Bahrain: +2 recoveries (now 6) 🔸 UK: +3 cases (now 209) 🔸 US: +6 cases (now 401) 🔸 Fairfield County, CT, US: +1 cases (now 2) 🔸 Maricopa County, AZ, US: +1 cases (now 3), +1 recoveries (now 1) 🔸 Snohomish County, WA, US: +8 cases (now 27) 🔸 Washington C21:35
Specmaricopa :(21:35
tinwhiskersDang, these consolidated reports look much more scary21:35
adventurerhttps://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/incidents/coronavirus-china-quarantine-hotel-collapse-traps-70/news-story/d802347f283b32fbaa4bec12f83e6f5a21:35
SpecLjL: i've concluded my coworker who went on that cruise trip is an idiot21:36
slash_it's.. just so infuriating, we have 188 cases, and a few hundred contacts. Just freaking isolate them?21:36
slash_it's annoying yes, but are we going to wait until we have 1 million people infected?21:37
tinwhiskersI think that horse has bolted now :-(21:37
BrainstormNew from BBC Health at 20:28 UTC: Coronavirus: Family pay tribute to 'wonderful great-grandad': The family of a man who died with coronavirus say they cannot arrange his funeral because they are self-isolating. → https://is.gd/QKvZ3q21:37
Specslash_: surely we will21:38
Speci mean, we're certainly going to wait in america21:38
slash_WE HAVE 700 MILLION PEOPLE HERE21:38
mefistofeles%data US21:38
Brainstormmefistofeles: In all areas, US, there are 401 cases, 17 deaths (4.2% of cases), 15 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 21:30:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.21:38
mefistofeles%data Germany21:38
Brainstormmefistofeles: In all areas, Germany, there are 800 cases, 0 deaths (0.0% of cases), 18 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 21:30:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data.21:38
slash_WHY is quaranting a few thousand people so hard?21:38
tinwhiskersIt boggles the mind to hear the testing policies many countries have put in place.21:39
tinwhiskersI guess it's about the money21:39
Spec "If we have thousands or hundreds of thousands of people that get better, just by, you know, sitting around and even going to work, some of them go to work, but they get better, and then when you do have a death, like you've had in the state of Washington, like you had one in California, I believe you had one in New York."21:39
slash_the testing policies do not make sense idd tinwhiskers21:40
Spec"So I think that that number is very high. I think the number, personally, I would say the number is way under 1%."21:40
Spec<321:40
slash_it is cheap to test at the start, but many countries are very critical as to who they want to test21:40
tinwhiskersSpec: wtf?21:40
mefistofelesyeah, most countries just cannot afford it21:40
Spectinwhiskers: that's my prez yo21:40
tinwhiskersLol21:41
LjLSpec, this draft decree is written by morons (surprise), it doesn't say in any way WHERE movement will be restricted. like, can't i live Milan? the province of Milan? what?21:41
slash_mefistofeles in Europe?21:41
tinwhiskersVery coherent21:41
mefistofelesslash_: I am, yes21:41
slash_mefistofeles but testing a few thousand extra people now prevents testing hundreds of thousands later..21:41
LjLSpec, anyway, tell me what actions we should take now, if any, because we are kinda all going panic mode, except my dad who's just watching pre-recorded yet studio-audience-free TV21:42
tinwhiskersOmg, politicians ignoring advice from experts are going to kill millions of people21:42
SpecLjL: follow your dad's path21:42
Spectinwhiskers: yes.21:42
Spectinwhiskers: and they won't be held accountable21:42
Specand his base will love him for it.21:42
SpecLjL: chill out, stay at home, play games. how much food do you guys have on hand?21:43
LjLSpec, can i at least hope my Amazon and eBay deliveries due for monday/tuesday won't be held?21:43
Specyou can hope :P21:43
tinwhiskersOh ohhh21:43
LjLSpec, not enough to go through a 30-day quarantine21:43
SpecLjL: 1 week?21:43
LjLSpec, probably, perhaps21:43
tinwhiskersLjL: but you can still go to the shops?21:43
LjLSpec, we have very little non-perishable food, i think21:43
Speci would go shopping and follow cleaning rituals upon return21:44
LjLtinwhiskers, i sure hope so, but will we find anything there?21:44
tinwhiskersMmm21:44
Specand probably ration food....21:44
slash_LjL buy cans of soup, vegetables and meat if you can21:44
slash_LjL usually very cheap too21:44
tinwhiskersI imagine there will have to be rations as well21:44
SpecI would go with bulk rice personally21:44
Specand beans :D21:44
tinwhiskersAnd dried noodles21:44
slash_Spec look out for rice bugs21:45
Specrice bugs?21:45
slash_Spec or whatever they're called21:45
Specrice lice?21:45
tinwhiskersOne of my favs here is breakfast crackers with peanut butter and jam on. They lasts for months21:45
slash_Spec yeah maybe, but rice often contains eggs for some bugs, when they hatch you're gonna have bad time21:46
tinwhiskersRice will last for many months21:46
slash_Spec freezing the rice for a while kills them thouh21:46
Specand extra protein21:47
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 20:43 UTC: (news): Amtrak suspends nonstop Acela service between DC and New York as demand weakens amid coronavirus → https://is.gd/4MjeHI21:47
Speclool21:47
slash_rice weevils are the name apparently21:47
Speccommunity to community in NYC and amtrak suspends service because of economics21:47
tinwhiskersBuy multiple smaller bags of rice if you're worried.21:47
LjLSpec, Amtrak takes advantage of every opportunity to suppress service don't they21:47
Specslash_: oh yeah, weevils. you'll get more in flour21:47
tinwhiskersI have a hoard of rice and I've never seen any bugs21:47
Spec^21:47
contingohopefully not all movement21:48
slash_Spec yeah flour too, but you can freeze that as well21:48
Speci've had weevils in my bulk flour before21:48
Speci used to buy flour in BulkBulk because mywife baked a lot of bread21:48
Speclike 50lb bags21:48
tinwhiskersWe do have weevils in our flour. No big deal21:48
Specyeap21:48
Specshit gets baked :D21:48
contingo"banning movement" has a certain air of finality to it21:48
Speccontingo: yeah, when do you unban movement21:48
slash_the weevils can get everywhere though21:48
slash_better to prevent21:48
tinwhiskersThat's pretty much impossible21:49
slash_little bastards21:49
slash_tinwhiskers if you freeze rice/flour a week or two it kills the eggs21:49
tinwhiskersMultiple bags is your best chance of delaying that but we're only talking about a month or two so it's really not a big deal21:49
tinwhiskersslash_: ah. Yeah. Not an option for me21:49
contingoI have no flour weevil problem, pantry moths were an issue last summer21:50
slash_tinwhiskers alternatively store the bags in a container21:50
slash_tinwhiskers to prevent spread at least21:51
tinwhiskersI never had flour weevil problems back home but here in the tropics they go mad21:51
contingoI imagine you might have a lot of ants?21:51
contingoit's the ants that get to my supplies first when I'm roughing it in the tropics21:51
slash_tinwhiskers yeah the climate matters a lot, but here in the Netherlands it can get hot and moist in summer which can make the devils spawn21:52
contingoants or bears21:52
tinwhiskersYeah, but they are not too bad in this house for some reason. Maybe the fact it's a pole house.21:52
slash_yeah maybe less moist?21:53
tinwhiskers¯\_(ツ)_/¯21:54
slash_but shit I live in a former swamp21:54
contingowell that helps. But I've stayed in many infested stilt or pole houses in tropical SE Asia21:54
contingoyou probably run a tight ship21:54
tinwhiskerscontingo: yeah. I've seen ants in pole houses too. I certainly don't run a tight ship. I don't know why they are not a problem here21:55
tinwhiskersThey were madness while I was building21:55
Speci'm gonna CROSS POST21:55
contingohmm21:55
Spechttps://twitter.com/LizSpecht/status/123609518045900390921:56
slash_Spec read that one earlier, good post21:56
mefistofelesthose numbers are wrong21:57
Spec"As a critical care specialist in SoCal I have been running these numbers too and am worried about the implications. OTOH it looks like exponential growth slowed or halted in China South Korea and Japan with aggressive response which gives me hope. Next 4 weeks critical."21:58
slash_well they are an assumption21:58
contingowhen I encountered my first Malaysian Giant Ant, I thought it was a rodent21:58
slash_but the point is still true21:58
tinwhiskersDiseases don't spread at exponential rates though21:58
mefistofelessure, but the assumption ofexponential growth for ever, up to may or whatever, is not a good assumption21:58
mefistofelesso those numbers are not conservative at all, as she claims, but quite the opposite21:59
slash_true21:59
slash_but21:59
slash_in any case, the point is that healthcare systems can easily be overwhelmed due to this virus 21:59
slash_if not contained22:00
tinwhiskersYes, and managed with good quarantine procedures22:00
tinwhiskersYeah22:00
tinwhiskersThey will certainly be overwhelmed without some enforced containment22:01
slash_yes, it is the biggest issue in this pandemic22:01
aradeshseems to be confirmed coronavirus cases now in both the county i live in, and the county i work on22:01
slash_mortality rate for the disease can go UP when there are too many to treat22:01
mefistofelescontaining it is not an option22:01
aradeshand the county i travel through on my way to work :P22:01
mefistofelesmitigating it is, as the WHO has said22:01
tinwhiskersmefistofeles: yeah, ok. Mitigation rather22:02
aradeshchina seems to have succeeded in stopping it spreading now?22:02
mefistofelestinwhiskers: yes, just to be clear on the words :) and use the same words they use22:02
slash_mefistofeles when did the WHO say this? Last time I heard they still considered containment possible22:02
tinwhiskersmefistofeles: lockdown!22:02
slash_mefistofeles althouh I also do not think containment is feasible at this point due to too many nations failing.22:03
mefistofeleshttps://www.esicm.org/covid-19-update-from-our-colleagues-in-northern-italy/ this is a nice one, I guess22:03
aradeshthe UK currently has about as many cases of covid19 as italy did 2 weeks ago22:03
slash_there is good news however22:06
slash_we will never have 1 billion confirmed cases :)22:06
slash_because we cannot test 1 billion people22:06
LjLhttps://static.gedidigital.it/repubblica/pdf/2020/cronaca/bozza.pdf is the draft law quarantining Lombardy if anyone else here reads Italian or lives here22:06
slash_LjL can you provide a summary?22:08
mefistofelesslash_: yeah, that's common, as with flu, we don't really tested the whole population for it, but we basically assume/know everyone has catched it at some point22:08
mefistofeless/catched/caught22:09
Brainstormmefistofeles meant to say: slash_: yeah, that's common, as with flu, we don't really tested the whole population for it, but we basically assume/know everyone has caught it at some point22:09
LjLslash_, i can translate the points that are most salient to me, yeah22:09
LjLArt. 122:10
LjLIn order to counter and contain the spread of the COVID-19 virus in the Lombardy region and in the provinces of Modena, Parma, Piacenza, Reggio nell'Emilia, Rimini, Pesaro and Urbino, Venice, Padua, Treviso, Asti and Alessandria the following meaasures are adopted:22:10
LjLa) absolutely avoid any movement into and out of the territories referred to in this article, as well as within the same territories referred to in this article, except for movements motivated by non-deferrable work needs or emergency situations;22:10
LjL... then there's a lot of things about restricting work activities22:10
LjLi reckon these areas probably contain... 12 to 15 million people22:11
LjLsince it's a lot more than just Lombardy after all22:11
slash_LjL I just checked Dutch news, and they say that Italy is locking down Lombardy and 11 other regions, so that seems to be correct22:11
LjLwell the Guardian above said the same22:11
LjLit is not yet law, but if papers say so, i guess it will be! ;(22:11
Speclol -> https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-03-06/russia-closes-border-with-iran-as-coronavirus-spread-worsens22:12
Specpretty sure we don't need russia misinfo campaign to doubt competency of US leadership22:12
slash_LjL I applaud Italy for taking these drastic measures tbh22:12
slash_LjL I really hope that the whole EU will provide financial relief to the worst affected areas..22:13
LjLslash_, isn't it kinda late and gratuitous now? it's already multiplying at exponential rates in the regions *outside* of the aforementioned areas22:13
LjLslash_, the EU has basically said fuck all about the whole thing for now, as far as i'm aware22:13
slash_LjL if you ask me, we should be closing down whole cities NOW in the Netherlands while the numbers are still low...22:14
slash_LjL yes.. maybe too late :S22:14
tinwhiskersLjL ugly translation: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Foffloop.net%2Fcovid19h%2Fdecree.html22:14
slash_LjL but fuck, we are all in this together now, all EU nations should be encouraged to take DRASTIC measures RIGHT NOW22:15
LjLtinwhiskers, slightly continuous, but it's something :P22:15
Specslash_: i agree that would be a good way to defray burden on system22:15
LjLslash_, i hope it won't be a good excuse to go back to the middle ages where we can't leave cities and towns without permits... forever, instead22:15
pwr22Just been in a supermarket and all the pasta is gone22:15
pwr22Never seen that before22:15
tinwhiskersheh. The formatting didn't come over for some reason. Boy that's hard to read22:15
Specpwr22: where ya at?22:16
LjLjoatds[m], ping22:16
pwr22Bristol, UK22:16
slash_LjL this disease spreads because we have open borders, the whole of the EU has benefited from this.22:17
LjLslash_, we don't have open borders with China and neither does the US yet we got where we are... so it kinda depends on the definition of "open"22:17
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 21:14 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York declares emergency; Italy to lock down Milan area → https://is.gd/K5bpyH22:17
LjLnow we're going from "don't even have to show your ID card" to "won't be able to leave single towns"22:18
slash_LjL it is our duty as EU nations to also carry responsibiliy for all the negative consequences22:18
LjLit may be needed, but it's pretty damned serious22:18
slash_LjL no, I meant within the EU22:18
LjLslash_, yes, well, but it isn't even fully true. Germany is going exponential mainly because of their *own* clusters, that they got from links to China, not due to Italy22:19
slash_LjL it is not Italy's fault that they where hit first22:19
LjLSpec, i posted this tweet https://twitter.com/BrainstormBot/status/1236397021210259457 but it suspiciously fails to show me any analytics for it. i assume you can see it?22:20
slash_LjL true, there are many "patient zero" cases within the EU22:20
SpecLjL: i can see it22:21
tinwhiskersThis translation retains *some* of the formatting and is a bit easier to read22:23
tinwhiskershttps://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Foffloop.net%2Fcovid19h%2Fbozza.htm22:23
slash_LjL but, I hope that the EU can come together over this22:24
slash_LjL the virus entered the EU, there is no single EU nation to blame22:25
slash_LjL so all of us are responsible22:25
tinwhiskersLjL: bars and restaurants can stay open!22:26
LjLtinwhiskers, which is... pretty stupid?22:26
Speclol22:26
tinwhiskersDoesn't really fit with: absolutely avoid any movement into and out of the territories referred to in22:27
tinwhiskersthis article , as well as within the same territories referred to in this article ,22:27
tinwhiskersexcept for journeys motivated by indifferent working needs or situations22:27
tinwhiskersemergency ;22:27
LjLSpec, and they aren't even completely forbidding religious ceremonies22:27
LjLyou just have to "keep distance", ffs22:27
SpecLjL: :(22:27
tinwhiskersAnd sportspeople are pretty much given a free pass... 22:28
slash_at least the Pope is gonna be a Twitch streamer now22:28
Spechahaha22:29
Specdon't forget to subscribe and like22:29
slash_don't forget to give your prime subs to the catholic church!22:30
LjLthere are press rumors that our government is organizing to only "meet" via Skype from now on22:31
LjLafter Zingaretti (Democratic Party leader) was found positive22:32
LjLwhen it gets to the politicians, that's when they take "harsh measures", isn't it22:32
slash_that's one positive thing in this situation22:32
slash_politicians can and are getting infected22:33
LjLSpec, my tweets, even the normal ones about earthquakes, are getting WAY fewer views than normal22:33
slash_at least for once, this issue also affects the ruling class22:33
LjLlike... i'm talking 3 vs the normal 30022:33
LjLslash_, last i checked, 7% of the Iranian parliament was infected. imagine the rest22:34
SpecLjL: everyone's outside partying :)22:34
slash_LjL yes I saw that, but those dumbasses where also visiting coronapatients and shit22:34
LjLSpec, most of my followers aren't italians22:34
slash_and shaking their hands22:34
LjLsmart22:34
Specand touching religious statues22:35
Specwith their...hands22:35
ryoumablarney stone too?22:35
ryoumaepiscopal/catholic communion/mass cups?22:36
ryoumaanglican* and presumably orthodox22:36
slash_There was this government official a week or so ago who said "if there are more than 40 cases I will resign!" What happened to that guy?22:36
slash_in Iran22:37
Specryouma: oh, holy water doesn't spread the virus, it is blessed by the lord, our savior22:37
tinwhiskersslash_: lol22:38
slash_did he die of the virus?22:39
adventurerDid you hear about the Iranian guy licking some shrine there22:39
tinwhiskerslol22:39
slash_adventurer "the iranian guy"22:39
slash_you mean, millions of pilgrims22:39
tinwhiskerswow22:40
adventurerOh yeah you're right 22:40
adventurerhttps://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Iranian-Shias-lick-kiss-shrines-in-defiance-of-coronavirus-outbreak-61942822:40
slash_also, they kiss the shrine, then rub their face and hands on it, then they rub their face with their hands22:40
adventurerOn the radio they just quoted one guy but it sounds like it was many22:40
tinwhiskers"let's get this over and done with"22:40
slash_MAXIMUM CONTAGION22:40
tinwhiskersWhile people dying isn't cool, I'd rather it be religious folk than old folk.22:42
LjLi think 6 or 7 drops of benzodiazepine are now in order22:43
slash_tinwhiskers unfortunately it's the people doing these dumb religious rituals that are spreading it accross the country22:44
tinwhiskerstrue22:44
slash_A lot of elderly will die because of this I think...22:45
LjLthey say families should unite in emergencies, instead my dad bouts away then keeps on watching TV, my mom's been on the phone for an hour, and i'm here... talking to people none of which live anywhere near me22:46
SpecLjL: :D22:46
Spectinwhiskers: oh fuck yeah spread it.jpg22:46
tinwhiskers:-(22:47
slash_Well I hope you will stay healthy LjL :)22:47
Speci'm still debating whether or not i'm excessively paranoid22:47
Spec0 announced cases, but i haven't left my house in over a week :P22:47
LjLslash_, that is making the rather risky assumption that i'm healthy in the first place22:48
Speccontingo: how are you feeling?22:48
slash_LjL that is true22:48
slash_LjL well at least I hope you don't catch this virus named after a shitty Mexican beer22:49
LjLSpec, am *i* being excessively paranoid when i note that 1) my tweets suddenly have virtually zero readers, and 2) the thread i briefly commented on about "Lombardy becomes all a red area" on r/italy has already disappeared from the hot page?22:49
slash_you might be shadowbanned on reddit?22:50
SpecLjL: i think all social media sites are struggling to combat misinformation22:50
twomoonswhat are you thinking ljl ?22:50
tinwhiskersLjL: wow, looks like Italy and Iran are about to overtake South Korea.22:50
contingoexactly the same Spec, thanks for asking. One cough earlier. How about you?22:50
BruntLIVEljl: its corona dunkirk22:50
Speccontingo: yeah, one cough, not many. didn't sneeze all day yet, no fevers to report. my wife coughed once (a bad sounding cough), but is otherwise fine.22:51
LjLslash_, what, how do you infer from that that i'm shadowbanned on reddit22:51
LjLSpec, "This post is locked. You won't be able to comment." https://www.reddit.com/r/italy/comments/ff14ce/lombardia_in_zona_rossa/22:51
twomoonsi'd rather hear your speculation than Slash's , LjL22:51
LjLi'd rather know what i'm thinking before i tell it to others22:51
SpecLjL: why'd they remove that post o.O22:52
twomoonslol22:52
LjLfor now i'm seeing a thread that announces a quarantine on where i live being removed and locked22:52
tinwhiskersweird22:52
BrainstormNew from Reddit WorldNews Live at 21:47 UTC: /u/slakmehl: A map of the area in Italy which will be on lockdown until April, from which no one can exit without special approval. It includes not just the Italy's beating economic heart in Milan and the Lombardy region, but also Venice. → https://is.gd/Jn1t3i22:52
slash_LjL you can check by logging out and trying to find the post, it won't show up if it is hidden or if you are shadowbanned22:52
Specyou mean use private mode :P22:53
LjLslash_, it's not my post22:53
slash_LjL incognito also works ofc22:53
LjLi guess i will have to rely on r/worldnews then since r/italy is being more like r/mussolini22:53
SpecLjL: do you think your fellow citizens are entering a full panic mode?22:53
LjLSpec, i think most of them have no idea, partly perhaps because posts about it are being removed22:54
slash_LjL well tbh I do not know :p I do not read /r/italy22:54
Specinterestingly low fever numbers i see, anecdotally22:54
LjLslash_, you're just confusing things. i said my TWEETS aren't being viewed, and then i said someone ELSE's reddit post abotu the quarantine got removed and locked22:55
LjLtwitter != reddit22:55
contingogood grief my geography is appalling 22:56
contingoI thought Venice was in southern Italy22:56
slash_LjL ahhh, yes I misread.22:56
slash_LjL the tweets are still odd though22:58
slash_a lot of subreddits do seem to have quite arbitrary moderation though23:00
Speccontingo: oh, it's not?23:02
Speccontingo: :D23:02
Brainstorm🔶 World: +11 cases (now 106007) 🔸 Brazil: +3 cases (now 17) 🔸 US: +8 cases (now 409)23:05
twomoonsare you locked down now ljl ?23:06
LjLtwomoons, yes, soon23:08
LjLi don't know when the law becomes enforced23:08
twomoonsi see. what's going to be your range of roam ?23:08
twomoonsin square kilometers23:08
Albright%stats us23:09
BrainstormRuntimeError: dictionary changed size during iteration (file "/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/modules/info.py", line 389, in stats)23:09
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 22:05 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York declares emergency; Italy to lock down Milan area → https://is.gd/K5bpyH23:10
LjLAlbright, just try again23:14
LjL%stat us23:14
LjL%stats us23:14
BrainstormMost used commands: watch_for_privmsg (256), watch_for_messages (256), science (256), responds (256), quup (256), police (256), mc44 (256), check (256), banned_words (256), watch_for_backlog (255)23:14
BrainstormPower users: LjL (590), slash_ (476), Spec (311), LuisR14 (246), tinwhiskers (231), DesertPunk (222), Yaniel (217), jcay (167), SteveTheTribble (150), Brainstorm (113)23:14
BrainstormPower channels: ##covid-19 (1854), ##japanese (1142), #fdroid (63)23:15
LjLoh it's not evne stats23:15
LjL%data US23:15
BrainstormLjL: In all areas, US, there are 409 cases, 17 deaths (4.2% of cases), 15 recoveries as of Sat Mar  7 22:51:00 2020. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.23:15
AlbrightJeez, our death rate continues to stink it up.23:15
LjLtwomoons, i have no idea, as i see the law is extremely unclear23:15
AlbrightNot that this is a competition, but…23:15
AlbrightAnd I don't know how many times I've mixed up %stats and %data23:16
LjLYou have been temporarily muted from r/italy. You will not be able to message the moderators of r/italy for 72 hours.23:16
LjL    permalinkdeletereportblock subreddit23:16
LjLYou've been permanently banned from participating in r/italy23:16
LjLsubreddit message via /r/italy[M] sent just now23:16
LjLYou have been permanently banned from participating in r/italy. You can still view and subscribe to r/italy, but you won't be able to post or comment.23:16
LjLIf you have a question regarding your ban, you can contact the moderator team for r/italy by replying to this message.23:16
LjLReminder from the Reddit staff: If you use another account to circumvent this subreddit ban, that will be considered a violation of the Content Policy and can result in your account being suspended from the site as a whole.23:16
slash_what did you do LjL23:17
twomoonsomg ljl what could have happened23:18
LjLslash_, i posted complaining they can't possibly censor breaking news23:18
LjLhttps://www.reddit.com/r/italy/comments/ff2es3/ma_come_vi_permettete_di_censurare_la_notizia_che/23:18
LjLbut evidently they can23:18
slash_to be fair I've been banned from subreddit's for linking wikipedia pages lmao23:18
twomoonswhen you get banned from a reddit channel, who is making that decision?23:19
AlbrightThe mods of that subreddit.23:20
twomoonsi see23:20
AlbrightSubreddit mods are kinda notorious for being power-hungry, though it certainly depends on the mod/subreddit.23:20
slash_some of the ultra leftwing subreddits also ban you for posting on a subreddit that they dislike23:21
slash_I got banned from /r/latestagecapitalism for posting on /r/stupidpol23:21
slash_they are both leftwing subreddits lol23:22
AlbrightOh, yeah, I've heard of that too. The whole thoughtcrime thing.23:22
twomoonslol23:22
AlbrightStereotypically kids who have some semblance of authority for the first time in their lives and let it go to their head.23:22
slash_apparently like Bernie Sanders isn't enough nowadays to be a progressive or something23:23
slash_or maybe its's because I am Dutch? :O23:23
twomoonssounds a lot like irc23:23
slash_I mean I think I commented once that Bernie would basically be a centrist in Dutch politics23:24
twomoonsapparently liking Bernie(?)23:24
slash_he's a good honest dude23:24
twomoonslol slash_ that's what my mom's dutch friend said23:24
twomoonsbernie's a centrist in holland23:25
slash_twomoons well he is, I mean we have right wing parties here trying to make universal healthcare cheaper for working class people23:26
slash_imagine that in the USA23:26
twomoonslol23:26
twomoonsi thought Bern was taking off but then super tuesday happened23:27
slash_twomoons yeah I thought so too23:27
slash_but Biden?23:27
slash_really>23:27
slash_??23:27
BrainstormNew from BBC Health at 22:20 UTC: Coronavirus: Family pay tribute to 'wonderful great-grandad': The family of a man who died with coronavirus say they cannot arrange his funeral because they are self-isolating. → https://is.gd/QKvZ3q23:27
twomoonseveryone thought he was toast after new hampshire23:28
slash_of all the candidates, Biden is now somehow competing against Bernie????23:28
yuriwhohttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/07/italy-set-to23:28
slash_does America not have TV and the internet or something?23:28
twomoonsyeah i don't get that slash_ something weird happened 23:28
twomoonslol23:28
AlbrightBernie will probably stay in 'til the convention and Biden's such a goofball that there's a chance he might drop an N-bomb or something and destroy his own campaign, so we'll see. He still has a chance.23:28
yuriwho^ quarantining whole of Lombardy23:28
AlbrightBut anyway, viruses.23:28
slash_ughh23:28
slash_Biden is going to be the nominee and Trump will get a second term23:29
slash_fucking hell23:29
AlbrightWell, if Bernie's the nominee, Trump will also get a second term… I don't think he's defeatable by either of them.23:29
AlbrightBut ANYWAY, viruses.23:29
slash_from my European perspective the Democratic Party dislikes Bernie more than Trump lol23:29
twomoonsi think that's possibly true slash_ 23:30
slash_Albright yeah, maybe, I can't really judge properly23:30
twomoonsalthough if Bernie starts campaigning on coronavirus i think he has a chance to beat everyone23:31
slash_but Bernie seems like the good anti establishment guy, and Trump the evil onr23:31
slash_in any case people in the US seem to be really fucking sick and tired of the establishment23:32
slash_Biden is just a demented Hillary with a penis23:32
AlbrightTrump is not nearly as evil as the press makes him out ot be.23:32
slash_well maybe not evil, but very uncaring23:33
slash_but23:33
twomoonsonly recently did trump start annoying me23:33
slash_to be fair, I've not seen a US president in my lifetime that seemed to actually give a shit about human lives23:34
slash_Trump isn't even worse than most presidents tbh23:34
slash_not that this says much23:34
AlbrightNo, not at all.23:34
slash_from my perspective the only difference is that Trump is at least honest about being a fucking asshole lmao23:35
slash_the rest just acted like civilized people while ordering the bombings of innocent people23:35
AlbrightYes, he certainly comes across as more genuine than most politicians, even when you know he's lying.23:35
AlbrightIf that makes sense.23:36
AlbrightBut anyway, viruses.23:36
slash_oh shit23:36
ubLIXslash_: you really mean that he lacks the competence necessary to conceal the degree of his assholery23:36
slash_I forgot about the viruses23:36
twomoonsdo you really think Bernie is gonna run the military any differently ?23:36
slash_twomoons he will use executive orders to end some engagements, but aside from that, no23:37
slash_people really overestimate what a US president does tbh 23:38
twomoonsif anything because he'll collect more tax revenue more money will find its way into the military budget23:38
AlbrightYes, that's true, but that's partially their own fault.23:38
LjLSpec, i also posted about it on r/Coronavirus. shortly afterwards it was removed with the reason that "it was already posted", and true enough, if i use the search function, it shows a lot of posts about it... but none of them in the actual r/Coronavirus "hot" or "new" page, that i can see23:38
slash_I am not really a political scientist or anything, but the US really needs some sort of political reforms23:39
slash_a 2 party system is NOT healthy23:39
Albrightslash_: Okay, so. I would argue that we don't really have a 2-party system.23:40
AlbrightBecause both parties have such wide bases. Within the Republican parties there are both libertarians and religious conservatives.23:40
AlbrightWithin the Democrats there are both businesspeople and socialists.23:40
twomoonslol23:40
slash_Albright but it is ridiculous to have such vast differences in ONE party23:41
LjLhttps://np.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/ff2ohj/italy_quarantines_whole_of_lombardy_including/fjuw81o/23:41
AlbrightTo this day theres a strong contingent of Republicans who absolutely hate Trump and which he has never been elected.23:41
Albrightslash_: Maybe, but it's just how things work here.23:41
AlbrightAs an ancap, I want to see reforms too… but they would involve tearing the entire system down to the ground and selling the national parks, monuments, and the White House itself to the highest bidder… so don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for the status quo here…23:42
slash_Albright Yes I know, but when I look accross the world coalitions between similar parties seem to work much better than monolithic left/right parties23:43
AlbrightBut I also don't like it so much when Euros tell me how my country should REALLY be run. :P23:43
AlbrightBUT ANYWAY, VIRUSES23:43
slash_Albright I do not want to say how the citizens of the US should run their own country! I just want to state my opinion :)23:44
slash_Albright but fuck man, as an ancap are you not pissed off at these two shitty parties in your country? :023:45
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health at 22:33 UTC: (news): Coronavirus live updates: New York declares emergency; Italy to lock down Milan area → https://is.gd/K5bpyH23:45
slash_also, VIRUSES23:46
SpecLjL: shitty reddit mods?23:46
Speci made some hand sanitizer23:46
Specso i can squirt it at people in public, as one does23:46
LjLSpec, i need some politician sanitizer23:46
LjLSpec, i hear you can source those in the US23:46
slash_hand sanitizers do not protect against shitty reddit mods23:47
LjLSpec, land of the free, though quite possibly social-media-censured too23:47
Albrightslash_: I try not to care so much. I already feel so disaffected by politics. Whatever happens happens. I *used* to be all "oh, it's important for everyone to be engaged with the system," but then I grew up and got taxed and otherwise screwed by the system.23:47
SpecLjL: pretty sure administration is censoring and influencing this event23:47
Specwhy would you insert politicians into a medical response?23:48
Specwhy is pray-away-gay pence in charge of our response?23:48
AlbrightPoliticians insert themselves.23:48
Albright"We're from the government and we're here to help."23:48
Specwell, they can help23:48
twomoonsdamn ljl you've been called fake news23:48
twomoonsthat's sad23:48
LjLtwomoons, i've hated the term "fake news" since the moment they started using it23:49
LjLand i can't udnerstand how people can't see it23:49
slash_Albright yeah I get it, but fuck at least vote for the option that is least shitty according to you23:49
LjLyes, there are stupid fake "news" around, have always been23:49
LjLbut "fake news" is almost a perfect translation of Lügenpresse23:49
twomoonsi can't stop 'bucket list' either23:49
LjL%wik Lügenpresse23:49
BrainstormLjL, from English Wikipedia: Lying press (German: Lügenpresse, lit. 'press of lies') is a pejorative political term used largely by German political movements for the printed press and the mass media at large, when it is believed not to have the quest for truth at the heart of its coverage. It can be considered synonymous with the [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lying_press23:49
slash_Albright either that, or work towards revolution23:49
LjLthis was a term using by Nazis to silence opposition media23:49
LjLand today, if you're right wing then the left wing is "fake news", and vice versa23:50
LjLhow can people not fucking see all this23:50
LjLor are they choosing not to see it, just like my dad is choosing to pretend nothing is going on, and keep watching his documentary on TV23:50
LjLbecause that's more comfortable than the fear from what is happening in reality23:50
LjLtoday the virus, yesterday, ever-increasing political extremism23:51
Spec%more23:51
BrainstormSpec, [...] term fake news. → Bad Gateway23:51
LjLtomorrow... a nice combination of both, and limited freedom of movement for everyone?23:51
slash_haha yeah you're right wing if you say a bad thing about muslims, meanwhile they're firing gas grenades against refugees coming from Turkey and that is fine23:51
LjLSpec, paste.ee is down23:51
tinwhiskersLjL: You should look on the bright side and see that at least your govt. is largely doing the right thing.23:52
Albrightslash_: I take a more incremental approach. I support liberty and avoiding government in my own life, and try to expound this philosophy in my family and friends in the hope that, generation by generation, the desire for government "help" will decrease until it is completely unnecessary.23:52
tinwhiskersa few details might be screwed up23:52
ryoumait isn't clear to me who sees all tihs and who does not.  hoardign and prices and fraud and political control of info suggest some are 23:52
SpecLjL: tbf,  your dad lived through 1918 flu so this could be triggering him23:52
AlbrightThat said, if it comes to full revolution, I will certainly take up arms, if for no other side than myself.23:52
LjLtinwhiskers, i don't think they are. the cat is out of the bag, now we're scapegoats23:52
LjLSpec, well, no, but they lived through Asian and Hong Kong flu, though they didn't even remember Hong Kong until i reminded them23:53
tinwhiskersa quarantine lockdown is now required though, right?23:53
ryoumaif government did quarantine and prevention properly, then the virus might be taken care of, and might not have crossed to humans23:53
LjLtinwhiskers, what's required now is suddenly having a TON more hospital because next week there won't be nearly enough beds23:53
tinwhiskersryouma: I don't believe that23:53
tinwhiskersLjL: while true, a lockdown is needed23:53
ryoumaban the markets in china, govs not delaying23:53
LjLtinwhiskers, what's NOT required is people making long queues at supermarkets, close together (yeah sure the decree says stores must "enforce" a distance of 1 m between people, ahahha)23:53
tinwhiskersryouma: that's just silly23:53
LjLtinwhiskers, and that's what will happen tomorrow when most people discover we're locked down23:54
tinwhiskersthat will be interesting. but you agree it's necessary, right?23:54
LjLno23:54
tinwhiskersI'm not asking what you think is unnecessary23:54
tinwhiskersWhat would you do instead?23:54
LjLi would limit movements in areas that are not *yet* infected, or only infected in controlled ways23:55
tinwhiskersyou'd allow freedom of movement in infected areas?23:55
LjLit's everywhere already. what's the point in separating me from my relatives?23:55
LjLuntil/unless they're actually requiring us to stay home at all times23:55
LjLthen maybe it will make sense23:56
tinwhiskerskeeping people largely in their homes slows the spread23:56
slash_Albright Is that not a bit naive? Look at us in Europe, I mean we do not have bad lives, but we are less free than Americans, despite dozens of revolutions23:56
LjLbut perhaps, just perhaps, we shouldn't have reached Wuhan-stage23:56
tinwhiskersChina has shown this23:56
tinwhiskersLjL: sure, but you have reached that point. Now, giuven the siutation limiting the speed of the spread is the right thing to do and that requires controlling movement, etc.23:56
LjLtinwhiskers, China has also shown a 16 year old disabled guy starving to death after his caregivers were drawn away by the quarantine vigilantes23:56
tinwhiskersyou're being irrational?23:57
tinwhiskersthat has nothing to do with thsi23:57
LjLwhatever23:57
tinwhiskersthe lockdown is a *good* move given the shit you're now in23:57
slash_Albright governments always move towards more control23:59

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