libera/##covid-19/ Wednesday, 2020-09-23

Jigsy%cases UK00:41
BrainstormJigsy: In United Kingdom, there have been 403551 confirmed cases (0.6% of the population) and 45712 deaths (11.3% of cases) as of 7 hours ago. 22.4 million tests were performed (1.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data.00:41
snake%cases PA00:44
Brainstormsnake: In Pennsylvania, US, there have been 155693 confirmed cases (1.2% of the population) and 7985 deaths (5.1% of cases) as of 17 hours ago. 1.4 million tests were performed (10.9% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.00:44
snakehuh, hasn't moved an inch00:44
ryoumastrange that deaths in az are moving up with cases at the same time (not delayed)01:00
BrainstormUpdates for World: +170722 cases (now 31.9 million), +3128 deaths (now 975415) since 7 hours ago — Czechia: +2394 cases (now 53158), +9 deaths (now 531) since 21 hours ago — India: +60210 cases (now 5.6 million), +904 deaths (now 90021) since 7 hours ago — Guadeloupe: +1061 cases (now 4487), +16 deaths (now 42) since 6 days ago01:21
BrainstormUpdates for Martinique: +168 cases (now 1290), +2 deaths (now 20) since 6 days ago — World: +1855 cases (now 31.9 million), +29 deaths (now 975444) since 33 minutes ago — US: +1658 cases (now 7.1 million), +24 deaths (now 205404) since 33 minutes ago — Suriname: +19 cases (now 4759), +3 deaths (now 100) since a day ago01:51
frib%cases USA03:17
Brainstormfrib: In US, there have been 7.1 million confirmed cases (2.2% of the population) and 205471 deaths (2.9% of cases) as of 13 minutes ago. 99.6 million tests were performed (7.1% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.9% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.5% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.03:17
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Sharing a household with children and risk of COVID-19: a study of over 300,000 adults living in healthcare worker households in Scotland (84 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.21.20196428v1 | https://redd.it/ixsj2v04:27
LjL<CoronaBot> /r/covid19: Sharing a household with children and risk of COVID-19: a study of over 300,000 adults living in healthcare worker households in Scotland (84 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.21.20196428v1 | https://redd.it/ixsj2v04:43
LjLfor those who were netsplit. this seems interesting04:43
ryoumatldr?04:44
fisccan we just start 2021 now ?04:46
LjLryouma, i just added it to my list of link, tldr will be there in a moment04:47
LjL... suggests that among healthcare workers, parents of young children are more likely to be protected from COVID-19, hypothizing that if the difference in children "are due to differential exposure to non-SARS-CoV-2 infectious agents, adults who are close contacts of children may partly share in this protection"04:47
LjLso this is not about children passing it less easily to parents04:47
LjLbut rather, whatever protects children may also protect their parents04:47
ryoumawhat would that be?04:48
ryoumathey are not saying e.g. cross immunity.  oh maybe it could be if the parents get infected with stuff that has cross immunity.04:49
LjLyes, the underlying idea is there's some pathogen children get that confers some degree of cross-immunity04:50
LjLthey don't say that explicitly because we don't know04:50
LjLbut data are data, an explanation can come much later04:50
ryoumais shared microbiome, shared env, healthcare parent knowledge, etc. ruled out?04:50
ryoumayeah04:51
ryoumajsut trying to speculate04:51
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Low plasma 25(OH) vitamin D level is associated with increased risk of COVID‐19 infection: an Israeli population‐based study (84 votes) | https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/febs.15495 | https://redd.it/ixvmt804:51
ryoumai like seeing rplications/confirmations being done04:55
mrstayuptest05:30
MikeJoel%cases France06:27
BrainstormMikeJoel: In France, there have been 484993 confirmed cases (0.7% of the population) and 31416 deaths (6.5% of cases) as of 7 minutes ago. 10.0 million tests were performed (4.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=France for time series data.06:27
MikeJoel%cases US06:32
BrainstormMikeJoel: In US, there have been 7.1 million confirmed cases (2.2% of the population) and 205471 deaths (2.9% of cases) as of 28 minutes ago. 99.6 million tests were performed (7.1% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.9% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.5% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.06:32
MikeJoel%cases texas06:56
BrainstormMikeJoel: In Texas, US, there have been 734778 confirmed cases (2.7% of the population) and 15127 deaths (2.1% of cases) as of 23 hours ago. 4.7 million tests were performed (15.8% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.3% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.3% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.06:56
MikeJoel%cases NY06:56
BrainstormMikeJoel: In New York, US, there have been 450473 confirmed cases (2.3% of the population) and 33092 deaths (7.3% of cases) as of 23 hours ago. 6.9 million tests were performed (6.5% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.06:56
MikeJoel%cases NJ06:57
BrainstormMikeJoel: In New Jersey, US, there have been 200154 confirmed cases (2.2% of the population) and 16069 deaths (8.0% of cases) as of 23 hours ago. 2.4 million tests were performed (8.2% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.06:57
MikeJoel%cases Massachusetts06:57
BrainstormMikeJoel: In Massachusetts, US, there have been 129182 confirmed cases (1.9% of the population) and 9317 deaths (7.2% of cases) as of 23 hours ago. 1.6 million tests were performed (8.0% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.06:57
MikeJoel%cases NY06:59
BrainstormMikeJoel: In New York, US, there have been 450473 confirmed cases (2.3% of the population) and 33092 deaths (7.3% of cases) as of 23 hours ago. 6.9 million tests were performed (6.5% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.06:59
MikeJoel%cases FL06:59
BrainstormMikeJoel: In Florida, US, there have been 685439 confirmed cases (3.4% of the population) and 13317 deaths (1.9% of cases) as of 23 hours ago. 4.1 million tests were performed (16.5% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data.06:59
BrainstormUpdates for World: +47762 cases (now 31.9 million), +1526 deaths (now 976970) since 5 hours ago — Argentina: +12027 cases (now 652174), +470 deaths (now 13952) since a day ago — France: +7537 cases (now 484993) since 5 hours ago — India: +5514 cases (now 5.6 million) since 5 hours ago07:08
BrainstormUpdates for South Carolina, US: +2665 cases (now 140789), +31 deaths (now 3243) since a day ago — Noord-Holland, Netherlands: +621 cases (now 19662), +1 deaths (now 843) since a day ago — Scotland, United Kingdom: +383 cases (now 25009), +1 deaths (now 2506) since a day ago — Maharashtra, India: +15738 cases (now 1.2 million), +344 deaths (now 33015) since a day ago07:23
BrainstormUpdates for Georgia: +227 cases (now 4140), +1 deaths (now 24) since 16 hours ago — World: +1034 cases (now 31.9 million), +21 deaths (now 976991) since an hour ago — US: +354 cases (now 7.1 million), +7 deaths (now 205478) since 2 hours ago — Armenia: +210 cases (now 47877), +4 deaths (now 942) since 23 hours ago08:53
BrainstormUpdates for Israel: +6667 cases (now 200041), +31 deaths (now 1316) since 21 hours ago — World: +19958 cases (now 31.9 million), +254 deaths (now 977245) since an hour ago — Slovakia: +338 cases (now 7269), +1 deaths (now 41) since 23 hours ago — Russia: +6431 cases (now 1.1 million), +150 deaths (now 19799) since a day ago10:23
BrainstormUpdates for Indonesia: +4465 cases (now 257388), +140 deaths (now 9977) since 23 hours ago — World: +4601 cases (now 31.9 million), +142 deaths (now 977387) since 34 minutes ago — Slovenia: +136 cases (now 4694), +1 deaths (now 143) since 23 hours ago — Georgia: +1 deaths (now 25) since 2 hours ago10:53
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Parkinsonism as a Third Wave of the COVID-19 Pandemic? (80 votes) | https://content.iospress.com/articles/journal-of-parkinsons-disease/jpd202211 | https://redd.it/ixy5xs10:59
BrainstormUpdates for Romania: +1767 cases (now 116415), +47 deaths (now 4550) since 23 hours ago — World: +7990 cases (now 31.9 million), +171 deaths (now 977558) since an hour ago — Philippines: +2802 cases (now 294591), +42 deaths (now 5091) since a day ago — Bangladesh: +1666 cases (now 353844), +37 deaths (now 5044) since 23 hours ago12:08
BrainstormUpdates for Tunisia: +1219 cases (now 12479), +10 deaths (now 174) since a day ago — United Arab Emirates: +1083 cases (now 87530), +1 deaths (now 406) since 18 hours ago — World: +2614 cases (now 31.9 million), +12 deaths (now 977570) since 24 minutes ago — Qatar: +258 cases (now 124175), +1 deaths (now 212) since 20 hours ago12:24
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Johnson & Johnson Initiates Pivotal Global Phase 3 Clinical Trial of Janssen’s COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate (87 votes) | https://www.jnj.com/johnson-johnson-initiates-pivotal-global-phase-3-clinical-trial-of-janssens-covid-19-vaccine-candidate | https://redd.it/iy7wrn14:12
BrainstormUpdates for World: +26342 cases (now 32.0 million), +425 deaths (now 977995) since 2 hours ago — India: +13987 cases (now 5.7 million), +133 deaths (now 90210) since 4 hours ago — Iran: +3605 cases (now 432798), +184 deaths (now 24840) since a day ago — Nepal: +1172 cases (now 67804), +7 deaths (now 436) since 23 hours ago15:09
BrainstormUpdates for Iraq: +5055 cases (now 332635), +72 deaths (now 8754) since 22 hours ago — World: +11273 cases (now 32.0 million), +164 deaths (now 978159) since an hour ago — India: +3834 cases (now 5.7 million), +45 deaths (now 90255) since an hour ago — Portugal: +802 cases (now 70465), +3 deaths (now 1928) since a day ago16:24
BrainstormUpdates for Moldova: +786 cases (now 48232), +14 deaths (now 1244) since 23 hours ago — World: +5994 cases (now 32.0 million), +280 deaths (now 978439) since 44 minutes ago — US: +5083 cases (now 7.1 million), +265 deaths (now 205775) since 44 minutes ago — Jamaica: +125 cases (now 5395), +1 deaths (now 76) since 22 hours ago16:54
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Induction of ketosis as a potential therapeutic option to limit hyperglycemia and prevent cytokine storm in COVID-19 (82 votes) | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0899900720302501?via%3Dihub | https://redd.it/iy66h616:55
Jigsy%cases UK17:06
BrainstormJigsy: In United Kingdom, there have been 403551 confirmed cases (0.6% of the population) and 45712 deaths (11.3% of cases) as of a minute ago. 22.4 million tests were performed (1.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data.17:06
BrainstormUpdates for United Kingdom: +4925 cases (now 409729) since 35 minutes ago — World: +10286 cases (now 32.0 million), +118 deaths (now 978557) since 37 minutes ago — Italy: +1640 cases (now 302537), +20 deaths (now 35758) since 23 hours ago — India: +1249 cases (now 5.7 million), +27 deaths (now 90282) since an hour ago17:25
BrainstormUpdates for Friuli Venezia Giulia, Italy: +346 deaths (now 696) since 5 minutes ago — World: +6212 cases (now 32.0 million), +139 deaths (now 978696) since 47 minutes ago — US: +2033 cases (now 7.1 million), +67 deaths (now 205866) since 47 minutes ago — Chile: +1380 cases (now 449903), +24 deaths (now 12345) since a day ago18:05
Jigsy3>UK coronavirus live: 6,178 new Covid cases recorded - close to record from early May18:29
BrainstormUpdates for Ecuador: +2249 cases (now 129892), +45 deaths (now 11171) since 18 hours ago — World: +54498 cases (now 32.1 million), +848 deaths (now 979544) since an hour ago — India: +30898 cases (now 5.7 million), +337 deaths (now 90619) since 2 hours ago — Brazil: +6906 cases (now 4.6 million), +251 deaths (now 138410) since 18 hours ago19:35
BrainstormUpdates for Spain: +11289 cases (now 693556), +130 deaths (now 31034) since 18 hours ago — World: +201 cases (now 32.1 million), +4 deaths (now 979548) since 17 minutes ago — Mozambique: +148 cases (now 7262), +4 deaths (now 49) since 18 hours ago — Germany: +53 cases (now 278245) since an hour ago19:50
Jigsy%cases world20:06
BrainstormJigsy: In World, there have been 32.1 million confirmed cases (0.4% of the population) and 979615 deaths (3.1% of cases) as of 4 minutes ago. 616.5 million tests were performed (5.2% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.2% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.0% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=World for time series data.20:06
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: 'You are not listening,' Fauci tells Sen. Rand Paul during a Senate hearing on the coronavirus: Dr. Anthony Fauci pushed back against Republican Sen. Rand Paul's claim that New York has overcome the pandemic because it achieved herd immunity. → https://is.gd/aAYwMG20:10
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: Stillbirth rate rises dramatically during pandemic (10000 votes) | https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02618-5?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_content=organic&utm_campaign=NGMT_USG_JC01_GL_Nature | https://redd.it/iy118620:15
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: Coronavirus: Parents sending sick, symptomatic kids to school, health officer says (10404 votes) | https://www.wisn.com/article/health-officer-parents-sending-sick-symptomatic-kids-to-school-coronavirus/34117451 | https://redd.it/iy9sll20:33
zini[m]question20:44
zini[m]anyone online?20:44
guest420yha i am20:45
zini[m]sweet!20:46
zini[m]any idea why some countries (australia) are mandating the use of masks outside?20:46
LjLbecause no one has established that transmission doesn't occur outdoors. much less likely than indoors? perhaps. i'd bet it depends a lot on the weather conditions too.20:47
LjLbut somewhere crowded outdoors may well be riskier than somewhere indoors with barely anyone20:48
zini[m]last i checked wiki, the floyd protests didn't noticably increase covid comapred to baseline20:48
zini[m]if there were laws like "wear masks outside, if in like downtown/a 10+ gathering" i'd understand it more. Rather than like wear a mask if ur walking around ur suburb20:50
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Anti-influenza drug Avigan® Tablet Meets Primary Endpoint in Phase III Clinical Trial in Japan for COVID-19 patients (83 votes) | https://www.fujifilm.com/jp/en/news/hq/5451 | https://redd.it/iy98pj21:15
LjLmeeting primary endpoint? that's a new one!22:13
LjLoh it's the Fujifilm drug22:14
LjLappropriately enough, yuta joins from .jp22:14
yutaLjL:hi22:14
de-factozini[m], masks mainly block the trajectory for spitting "ballistic droplets" and the more advanced ones also some aerosol (depending on tight fit and filter performance of course). outdoors aerosol is quickly diluted to or even blown away, but droplets still can be spitted at other people when in rage (e.g. not physical distance)22:14
LjLhi yuta22:14
LjLi'm talking about this thing https://www.fujifilm.com/jp/en/news/hq/5451 fyi since you joined after that22:15
yutaLjL:we call it avigan . nice drug.22:16
LjLthe press release talks about TWO primary endpoints but then it only gives numbers for one22:16
LjLi guess we'll know eventually22:16
zini[m]thanksde-facto: 22:17
yutareading.22:18
yutaLjL:you mean this ?22:20
yutaand to alleviation of symptoms (body temperature, oxygen saturation and chest images).22:20
LjLapparently Avigan is also being used experimentally in Italy on COVID patients, but Fujifilm reps have said they are actually worried about that and they don't think it's a good idea O.o22:20
LjLalthough that was months ago22:20
LjLyuta, yep. i'm not clear if the numbers they give is days until negative PCR, or days to alleviation of symptoms22:20
yutai see22:21
yutaI didn't know fujifilm saying.22:21
yutaLjL:You know avigan don't kill virus directly , right?22:23
LjLi haven't looked up the mechanism of action, actually22:23
de-factozini[m], it always depends on local prevalence (e.g. how many (asymptomatic) people currently spread infectious particles), the people density (e.g. large meetings and how dense packed) as well as distance (e.g. for evading droplets trajectories) and air exchange (e.g. on a windy day outdoors you would not even be annoyed by heavy smokers because its blown away quickly at some distance)22:23
yutaLjL:my recognization was avigan stops growing virus number. 22:23
LjLhttps://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.liberoquotidiano.it%2Fnews%2Fscienze-tech%2F21544156%2Fcoronavirus_avigan_industria_farmaceutica_produce_test_italia_preoccupano_meglio_non_farlo.html22:23
yutaLjL:I see.22:23
LjLthis reads a bit like they're concerned we're buying the drug from China instead of from Japan, honestly :P22:24
yutaahhh lool22:25
yutageneric.22:25
yutaPart of the manufacturing process of Avigan is patented and can only be made by Fujifilm. Therefore, I heard that the manufacturing method in China is partly different.22:27
yutarussian avigan , too.22:28
LjLis Avigan actually used as a flu drug in Japan? the italian wikipedia article says it's only used in rare cases because it's teratogenic22:28
yutaLjL:true. for flu , tamiful is 1st choice , avigan is 2nd.22:30
yutabut just only , japan gov decided.22:30
yutaAvigan cannot be prescribed to pregnant women.22:31
yutaBoth Tamiflu and influenza vaccines are produced by American companies, which are said to be beneficial. Avigan is also a good candidate for flu treatment.22:32
zini[m]de-facto: if there were laws like "wear masks outside: if in like downtown/a 10+ gathering" i'd understand it more. Rather than like wear a mask if ur walking around ur suburb.22:35
LjLyuta, i think here, not even Tamiflu is used normally... only in severe cases perhaps. but mostly it's about the vaccine22:36
zini[m]we can't get covid from eating food right?22:36
LjLzini[m], well they've made a law here like you describe now, but in practice, it's very difficult to enforce it, where is "crowded enough"? people can always say "i was about to put it on, it wasn't crowded before". while when we had a law for a while (in Lombardy) that everybody had to keep their mask on outdoors at all times, well, most people did22:37
LjLzini[m], the WHO would say "there is no evidence of that happening"22:37
de-factozini[m], its always difficult because situations vary a lot, thats why i think it would be best if people understand the reasoning behind measures and implement them on their own (yet some have to be forced to comply by law)22:37
yutaLjL:I see. I think that is good way as treatment.22:37
LjLbut if someone coughed on your food and then you ate it without re-cooking it, i wouldn't be so sure22:37
de-factozini[m], on surfaces the virus can stay infectious for many days (there were studies where they took it from resting on metal surfaces and could infect cells in vitro (ie. lab) with these after days)22:38
zini[m]good point, much easier to enforce it if it's like evyone22:39
de-factoso even if there are no direct evidences that food may be contagious, if someone spit on your food by talking or such and you eat it one might assume that may be a possible path to your mucus e.g. in mouth and pharyngeal regions where virus replication could start22:39
zini[m]another way of wording my food question, there is no evidence that covid can inject mouth/throat/stomach cells right?22:40
zini[m]<LjL "but if someone coughed on your f"> what makes you think that?22:40
LjLlogic22:40
LjLis there evidence that the virus disintegrates when on food?22:40
zini[m]i'd think if covid can't infect mouth/throat/stomach cells, then it should make no difference whether those cells touch covid22:41
de-factosource of above statement of infectious virus on surfaces for days22:41
de-facto%title https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(20)30352-2/pdf22:41
Brainstormde-facto, the URL could not be loaded 22:42
de-factoPage 474ff22:42
de-factonote: "Fifty-percent tissue culture infective dose (TCID50) is the measure of infectious virus titer."22:43
zini[m]Yea, i've seen that covid could go from door handle > eyeball > infection22:43
de-factoyeah for example22:43
zini[m]prob no proof of this but:22:44
zini[m]afaik, covid lasts ~1 day on cardboard. Food is KINDA like wet cardboard, so i'd hope that covid could only survive like ~12h on like salad22:45
de-factoits unknown, think of it like an exponential decay with some time constant (biological half life) where half of the infectious capability of SARS-CoV-2 virions decays22:46
yutaI think covid-19 is in public toilet mainly.22:46
LjL18<27zini[m]18> i'd think if covid can't infect mouth/throat/stomach cell  ←  uh well, the swab test is made on the throat, so i'd definitely think it CAN infect the throat22:46
de-factodepending on circumstances that biological half life may differ, e.g. in harsh environment (heat, sanitizing agents etc) it decays much more quickly than in conserving environments such as refrigerators 22:47
ryoumais it possible that 13 days after exposure, you develop asymptomatic disease22:48
zini[m]<LjL "<zini[m]> i'd think if covid"> oooooh snap true! so time to like wash my apples with soap22:48
de-factothen it depends on assumed contamination level how many biological half lives you have to wait for all of the infectious virions to decay22:48
de-factoits all about infection probability "low enough" to be considered to be safe, there never will be like a 100% guarantee22:50
zini[m]de-facto: yea like radiation22:50
de-factopretty similar to that yeah22:50
LjLryouma, how do you define "developing asymptomatic disease"22:51
zini[m]i just washed an apple with soap and am eating it now, it tasty slightly soapy ugh. The soap gets like stuck in its skin?22:51
yutalol22:51
de-factoi do that too, washing apples with soap, then again with water though :D22:51
LjLzini[m], maybe just peel it?22:52
de-factobut the good stuff is in the peel :D22:52
zini[m]de-facto: yea maybe i didn't rinse it enough. Do yours tasty soapy afterwards?22:52
de-factonope22:52
zini[m]goes back to rinse it again22:53
de-factoi wash them with warm water and they dont taste soapy at all22:53
ryoumainfected and contagious i guess, didn't think clearly enough --- 13:51 <LjL> ryouma, how do you define "developing asymptomatic disease"22:54
LjLde-facto, if you define COVID as the good stuff!22:54
LjLhonestly i think if you just rinse your apple with water and maybe scrub it a reasonable bit, soap may not be necessary. but i won't be responsible for your COVID case from apples so that's just me22:55
zini[m]rinsing it more helped22:55
zini[m]for hand washing, the recommended time is  still 20s ?22:56
de-factosoap makes a big difference for lipid hull virion destruction, water is in the body all around (as are happy virions being infectious), yet soap will destroy its hull hence also its infectious cap22:56
LjLzini[m], just wash them until you've scrubbed them on all surfaces22:56
LjL"how many seconds" is just for people who can't think for themselves22:56
LjLinsist in between the fingers and under the nails22:57
de-factothat only applies to eveloped viruses such as SARS-CoV-2 though, there are other viruses without hull and for those soap is not as effective (if at all)22:57
LjLbut don't cut yourself with your own nails, which i did recently22:57
LjLde-facto, agreed that soap is more effective than water, but flowing water still has a mechanical action, even if it's already surrounded by water22:58
de-factoyes it may wash virions away, but not inactivate them (e.g. if not boiling hot water for long enough time or such)22:58
LjLif you can wash your apples with soap *and* not make the apple taste like soap then go ahead, otherwise consider other options :P22:59
ryoumanote re heat: recent paper i think said around 60c which is 140f for an hour could still infect22:59
ryoumaso idk why food would be safe22:59
LjL70C is typically mentioned as the inactivating temperature22:59
LjLwhen food is being cooked it generally goes higher than that, however food that's eaten raw or cooked previous to exposure, i dunno22:59
zini[m]<LjL ""how many seconds" is just for p"> while i had a similar theory myself, but i think it's possible that there may be a 'marination' component22:59
zini[m]trying to find  a source atm23:00
de-factoi make a smoothie like that every morning: washing fruits with soap and hot water, then hot water alone and put them in the grinder (apples, lemons, oranges with peel, ginger, turmeric peeled)23:00
zini[m]"Rub the hand sanitizer over all the surfaces of your hands and fingers until your hands are dry. This should take around 20 seconds."23:01
zini[m]when i use sanitizer on my hands, it all evaporates, so apparently i'm not using enough!23:01
de-factoryouma, that sounds quite improbable though, 60°C for 60min is a lot and i would expect most proteins to be denaturated by then, just think about boiling an egg for that long time23:01
de-factoyet biological half life would be expected to be below an exponential function of the temperature23:03
de-factowell boiling is not the correct term obviously 60°C is below 100°C23:04
zini[m]how much sanitizer do you guys use? I was using like 2 cherry pits worth23:04
de-factoi mainly wash my hands with hot water and soap for 30s when i come home or such23:04
ryoumathat is why i mentioned it but don't have the source so ignore it23:05
de-factobut i have a little bottle to sanitize when no sink for washing hands is available23:06
de-factoryouma, could be that this is the case, i just would be a bit surprised to be honest23:06
LjLzini[m], "until your hands are dry" means until it evaporates23:08
de-factohttps://www.n95decon.org/publications23:08
de-factohttps://static1.squarespace.com/static/5e8126f89327941b9453eeef/t/5f5070d0e9df117a401444c2/1599107281564/N95DECON_Heat_Technical_Report_v3.pdf23:08
ryoumathere are lots of questions i have about such things.  it makes a difference in decisions one makes.  like, if your hands are of unknown status, and something you eat touches them briefly and in only a small spot, is it an issue, etc.23:08
LjLand indeed, please don't waste sanitizer when you're at home if you're doing that. just wash your hands. use sanitizer gel outdoors.23:08
ryoumaor, can stuff get into the air from surfaces23:09
ryouma(e.g. a tablet for the prev)23:09
ryoumaand so on.  you could go on for a while like this and yet idk if any authorities have believable lists of such things23:10
LjLi think there's also a part in this where you have to accept that you cannot really control *fully* where virus particles go23:10
de-facto"A process which achieves temperatures of 70–85oC and relative humidity greater than 50% for least 30 minutes is likely to inactivate SARS-CoV-2 (>3-log reduction) on N95 respirators while maintaining fit and filtration efficiency for 3–5 cycles. Dry heat is significantly less effective."23:10
ryoumait partly depends on whether those you live in have a concept of hygeine at all....23:11
ryoumawith*23:11
ryoumathat is one durable virion23:11
ryoumabetter to have 7 masks and let them sit in open ziplocs and rotate them23:12
de-factoquite a good list of references in that pdf at the end23:12
zini[m]i'm surprised i have read of any cases where someone used like scuba airtanks to go grocery shopping23:12
zini[m]havent**23:13
IndoAnonerr23:13
zini[m] * i'm surprised i haven't heard of any cases where someone used like scuba airtanks to go grocery shopping23:13
IndoAnonde-facto: don't we have a study that 30m at 60°C isn't that effective? 23:13
zini[m]does freenode have editting sent messages?23:13
de-factoIndoAnon, idk do you have some links?23:14
IndoAnon90°C 15m inactivated most of it though 23:14
IndoAnonwait a moment, there's hundreds of pdf lol23:14
de-factoit should be exponential with temp and you have to compare similar logarithm levels of TCID5023:15
de-factowtf is paperpile.com their links are all broken23:16
zini[m]i could not find a study  on how long covid must marinate in soap to be destroyed23:18
de-factohave not read it yet but this seems to be one of the papers about heat inactivation:23:18
de-facto%title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.11.036855v223:18
Brainstormde-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: Evaluation of heating and chemical protocols for inactivating SARS-CoV-2 | bioRxiv23:18
IndoAnonde-facto: probably this one23:19
IndoAnonregarding other surface https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhin.2020.01.02223:20
zini[m]"The soap not only loosens the “glue” between the virus and the skin"23:21
zini[m]" But soap is better because you only need a fairly small amount of soapy water, which, with rubbing, covers your entire hand easily. Whereas you need to literally soak the virus in ethanol for a brief moment, and wipes or rubbing a gel on the hands does not guarantee that you soak every corner of the skin on your hands effectively enough."23:22
zini[m]do you guys come home and shower/bath right away?23:22
IndoAnonzini[m]: yes 23:23
de-factoyeah on metal or glass it can stay infectious for over a week (consistent with above paper i linked)23:24
de-factodepending on dose of course23:24
de-factobut seems to be possible23:24
IndoAnoncurrently, i'm heating plastic in AC's fan(outdoor) probably 40°C for the next 30 days(~15 days has elapsed) 23:25
IndoAnonfor wrapping veggies 23:25
IndoAnonI'm dumb. Should have bought wrapping paper (brown) too23:26
zini[m]gj IndoAnon: !23:26
de-factozini[m], nope i just wash my hands and food with soap, I would shower if i feel like possibly being contaminated but i avoid such situations23:26
zini[m]de-facto: but you never know if the person behind u in a grocery store has it and breaths on your neck23:28
de-factoi rub the door knobs with denaturated alc quite frequently though (and other frequently touched surfaces such as handles and switches etc)23:28
de-factohence wearing masks and distancing23:29
IndoAnonzini[m]: do you live in Europe? you better started preparing before October... buying foods, especially eggs and long-life milk23:29
zini[m]"Most experts think a vaccine is likely to become widely available by mid-2021"23:29
zini[m]aww, i was hoping for a jan 1 2021 release23:29
de-factonearly 100% of people do that here in Germany, wearing masks and keeping distance of at least 1.5-2m in stores its even required by law and compliance seems to be good23:29
zini[m]IndoAnon: yea thanks, imo i think stocking up on canned foods is easiest due to the ability to leave in in the basement for a long time23:30
de-factowhy would people eat more in the winter? production and demand should be the same as now23:31
de-factoonly if people go crazy and buy HUGE amounts of stuff a problem arises from a self fulfilling prophecy23:31
de-factowe had that with toilet paper, completely ridiculous 23:32
IndoAnonde-facto: because there will be more surprise... like the meat factory infection 23:32
zini[m]someone pick a day before mid-2021 and i'll write it down to check if the vaccine is available23:32
de-factozini[m], just look at this website from time to time to see progressions:23:33
de-facto%title https://covidvax.org/23:33
Brainstormde-facto: From covidvax.org: COVID-19 Vaccines: The updated list23:33
zini[m]de-facto: thats a legit resource thanks!23:34
LjLOne of the many contained in the https://covid19.specops.network link in the room topic!23:34
LjLwhich i maintain with the helps of links found by people like de-facto but i still lack any evidence anyone ever read it at all :P23:35
IndoAnonbest case 2021 February, conservative feb2022, worst case 2023-never23:35
IndoAnonLjL: i read 23:35
LjLyay23:36
zini[m]LjL: sorry lol, there are so many resuorces there i think it will scare people away 23:36
LjLwell there is a table of content! Spec worked hard to give it a table of content!23:37
IndoAnonyay to spec 23:38
zini[m]y'all ready for the hunger games, aka who gets the vaccine first game?23:39
LjLi know it won't be us23:39
LjL(though it might be US)23:39
IndoAnonzini[m]: i don't recommend getting the first batch of vaccine out of stability issue23:39
de-factoits gonna be the groups with highest risk and those with high contact rates (possible super spreaders)23:40
IndoAnonhobos and health care workers 23:40
LjLde-facto, honestly it seems hard to rule out that aside from population sections, it will be certain countries and not certain others23:40
zini[m]i've read they're gonna try to give it out to hobos, health care workers, poor ppl, minority poor ppl etc before the general populatiton.23:41
de-factoyeah hence i think its good that this is at least addressed in Europe e.g. plans to make it available to countries who otherwise could not afford it etc, but yeah we will see how this turns out23:41
zini[m]but esp in places like america, i can't imagine trump supporters taking that well23:41
zini[m]"They're giving vaccines to immigrants, mexicans and black people first?!?!?!?!?!?!" 23:42
IndoAnon👍👍👍👍23:42
de-factoits pretty clear that for an effective end of a global pandemic it also has to be addressed on global level, e.g. all countries in a timespan of immunity from vaccination23:42
LjLde-facto, but i wonder whether Europe will have it "first" at all. what vaccine has Europe secured in a meaningful way? I assume Oxford, but that's one, it could find roadblocks. are there other vaccines in advanced trial phases that we can be sure Europe will get?23:42
LjLzini[m], yeah well at the same time, the same people will be saying "but don't give it to me first, i don't trust it yet"23:43
LjL(which honestly... i wouldn't so much!)23:43
de-factoLjL they secured deals with many producers afaik23:43
LjLde-facto, well as long as the deals are honored by means of governments not confiscating the stocks... which happened a fair bit with PPEs23:43
ryoumaypou said ppe were availab.e.  where?23:44
ryoumanot on amazon23:44
LjLdid i?23:44
ryoumaseemed so23:44
zini[m]"WHO guidance urges richer countries to ensure that poorer countries receive vaccines in the earliest days of allocation"23:44
ryoumalike "we have ... now, we have ... now, we have ppe now"23:44
zini[m]yea thats not happening23:44
LjLryouma, i don't remember saying that23:45
LjLoh23:45
LjLi said something like that while i was semi-quoting Boris Johnson's speech yesterday23:45
zini[m]lol true if enough trumpeters are antivaxx23:45
ryoumaok i will throw it in the outer party destruction chute23:45
LjLand that's something he was saying, i imagine, with regards to medical workers, not the general population23:45
ryoumaoh23:45
ryouma(panics that the inner party will object to discarding too much)23:46
LjLwhat we have is lousy masks that look surgical but aren't and that are being produced by Italian factories that were previously making all sorts of other stuff... and N95-looking masks with KN95 stamped on that may or may not be actually to-specs and protective23:46
de-factoup to 50% are not23:47
LjLindeed23:47
LjLand yet my mom yelled at me when i told her i'd go to vote with two masks on, a KN95 and a pseudo-surgical, because that was excessive or hysterical or something23:47
de-factosome time ago https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/half-chinese-n95-face-mask-fail-standards-unreliable/23:48
LjLgood thing i went to vote without knowing that the rules theoretically entailed uncovering your mouth for a moment to prove your identity, because i probably wouldn't have gone to vote had i known that23:48
LjLbut in typical italian fashion, the staff at my polling station ignored that and didn't ask me to take off my mask23:48
de-factoindoors or outdoors?23:49
LjLindoors, mostly in schools, which in italy don't generally have any HVAC23:49
de-factohmm23:49
LjLalthough to be fair they were keeping the windows open23:49
LjLgood thing it was a sunny day23:49
de-factowindy day would have been even better23:49
LjLnot really23:49
zini[m]does freenode not have profile pictures?23:50
LjLbecause then they would have closed the windows23:50
LjLzini[m], freenode is an IRC network, they don't typically have those...23:50
LjLit's a text-based protocol23:50
de-factoah well yeah i meant open windows with wind blowing through the people23:50
LjLde-facto, it's not practical, there is paper everywhere at those places23:50
zini[m]LjL: can freenode edit sent messages?23:50
LjLzini[m], no, and when Matrix users edit messages, the bridge just repeats the message, which makes it look REAL spammy when people do it many times in a row :(23:51
de-factonope because they are already broadcasted to the clients via IRC23:51
ryoumayou could have your client delay23:51
BrainstormUpdates for World: +92139 cases (now 32.1 million), +1871 deaths (now 981419) since 4 hours ago — India: +29676 cases (now 5.7 million), +554 deaths (now 91173) since 4 hours ago — Brazil: +22644 cases (now 4.6 million), +567 deaths (now 138977) since 4 hours ago — US: +20498 cases (now 7.1 million), +416 deaths (now 206338) since 4 hours ago23:51
LjLde-facto, well, same on Matrix, but they can be edited anyway, and the client is supposed to heed that23:51
LjLwhich i think is a bad idea, but i didn't make it23:51
zini[m]okay, when using freenode, don't eddit23:51
de-factoyeah i think XMPP has something like that too23:51
LjLi think the ability to delete them was "just right". editing can be problematic23:52
LjLediting is okay if it's about long text and there is an edit message and the history can be seen23:52
de-factobut i dont think its a good feature, people may have read messages and replied to them and then the "cause" of the "effect" can be changed? hmmm23:52
LjLediting in realtime chat... not so much23:52
LjLquite23:52
LjLde-facto, when i started using Matrix, you could delete your message, but not edit it23:53
ryoumamatrix sounds more like twitter now23:53
LjLryouma, you can't edit your messages on Twitter23:53
LjLin fact they have repeatedly refused to implement that feature23:53
ryoumaonly delete and repost?23:53
LjLfor reasons like de-facto stated23:53
LjLyes23:53
LjLand there's good reasons for that, which were equally good on Matrix imo23:53
zini[m]matrix says when msgs are edited 23:53
de-factobut then how to find the "cause" for a comment? its quite horrible for causality imho23:54
LjLzini[m], yes, but that's all it says. you don't know what the message said before, and there is no logged reason for the edit.23:54
zini[m]huh23:54
LjLjust deleting the message and reposting it instead preserves the timeline23:54
ryoumaa whole new tool for propaganda23:54
ryoumastill i think deleting and reposting csan lead to shenanigans23:55
LjLryouma, well maybe, but less so than editing23:55
zini[m]just tried it, yea, no edit history23:55
ryoumathough given cancel culture you don't want a mistake to exist forever23:55
LjLryouma, note that deleted messages are still seen in the form of a gray bar23:55
ryouma(and other forms of authoritarianism)23:55
ryoumaoh23:55
iphonywhat is cancel culture?23:55
LjLoh lordie23:55
zini[m]iphony: "Cancel culture or call-out culture describes a form of boycott in which someone is thrust out of social or professional circles – either online on social media, in the real world, or both. They are said to be "canceled"23:56
ryoumamy understanding is that it is like /denunciation and actions taken like getting the target in trouble23:56
iphonyso like ostracism?23:56
ryoumabut what do i know i have to avoid stress and politics, other than e.g. this channel23:56
LjLiphony, something like that23:56
iphonyshunned or excommunicated23:57
zini[m]<ryouma "(and other forms of authoritaria"> if your concerned, shouldn't you not use irc? bc afaik, irc is unencrypted.23:57
ryoumai think it is worse.  in the us a harvard prsident was kicked out for saying somethin somebody else said in a list of hypotheses in an attempt to list all possible hypotheses for something.23:57
iphonyI think I get "ghosted" a lot IRL23:58
LjLzini[m], so are Matrix rooms by default, currently. and it doesn't make a lot of sense to encrypt something in a public channel where anyone could join and see23:58
ryoumazini[m]: not sure what you mean, but don't really feel like pursuing it23:58
ryoumabut again i don';t iknw this stuff and should let other ssay what it is23:58
zini[m]LjL: afaik matrix public rooms use TLS, which doesn't helpmuch bc it's still public23:59

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