| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Senate to vote on $500 billion GOP coronavirus stimulus bill Wednesday: Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said the Senate will vote on coronavirus stimulus legislation on Wednesday. → https://is.gd/3PBB3G | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| LjL | de-facto, it may not be the case for Australia, but in countries very hard stressed by this, imagine how many tests a day people are running. i wouldn't take "working clean" for granted | 01:27 |
| de-facto | yeah but afaik the labs are also tested routinely to get certified for being fit to do those tests (at least in Germany) | 01:29 |
| dTal | Boss partner has a new persistent cough. Told her not to get tested because no other symptoms and "it's a faff". Invited me for lunch tomorrow. | 01:29 |
| dTal | Pretty fucking awkward position to put me in. | 01:29 |
| ryouma | nancy reagan said it | 01:30 |
| ryouma | "just say no" | 01:30 |
| dTal | "It's been 5 days, if she had it then I'd have it by now." Aye cheers that's a comfort | 01:30 |
| dTal | he said, while coughing a little | 01:30 |
| ryouma | :( | 01:30 |
| de-facto | i am mentioning this because some weird people put flyers in the mailbox with a print stating that PCR may have 2% false positive rate which just is complete nonsense, obviously that cant be the case if Australia must have got much less than 0.06161% false positives | 01:31 |
| de-facto | ugh I would keep a very good isolation distance from anyone coughing these days | 01:33 |
| dTal | It's like one tiny cough every two minutes so I can certainly understand ignoring it out of convenience | 01:33 |
| dTal | but the correct level of vigilance is "really fucking vigilant" | 01:34 |
| de-facto | especially would not want to trust peoples opinions in regards to my own health safety that obviously did not understood that there are things like persymptomatic infections or asymptomatic carriers etc | 01:35 |
| de-facto | i mean of course we also have normal colds like every fall, but i see those as covid until proven innocent by PCR | 01:36 |
| dTal | Yes, the fact that there's potentially a week of incubation, and that there's such a thing as asymptomatic cases, seems to be lost on a lot of people | 01:36 |
| dTal | "It can't be covid because I'd be sick by now" uh no bro | 01:37 |
| de-facto | probably really not fun for medical doctors this winter, because every respiratory illness potentially may be SARS-CoV-2 | 01:37 |
| dTal | "I don't want to bother them with needless tests" dude it *literally* says on the NHS website to isolate and get tested if you show *any* of the primary symptoms | 01:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: What the tier rules say about the split between science and politics → https://is.gd/n7PFN7 | 01:41 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +7319 cases (now 8.3 million), +37 deaths (now 224277) since 3 hours ago — Netherlands: +6 cases (now 222033) since 3 hours ago | 02:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: One new community case of Covid-19 in NZ today, Bloomfield says → https://is.gd/HnKcXh | 02:26 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +870 cases (now 8.3 million), +2 deaths (now 224279) since 53 minutes ago | 02:52 |
| ryouma | what is the length of time for virus to become non-infectious on packages left in sunlight? e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7212978/ (did not read)? | 03:09 |
| LjL | ryouma, afaik "in sunlight" really does have to mean direct sunlight for UV rays to do their jobs. which means a side, or the bottom, may still not be disinfected | 03:43 |
| de-facto | also remember normal window glass removes nearly all UV radiation | 04:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Japanese research team develops COVID-19 breath testing system → https://is.gd/cFnr5L | 04:18 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +10964 cases (now 213115), +33 deaths (now 10392) since 21 hours ago — France: +4573 cases (now 871770) since 8 hours ago — US: +207 cases (now 8.3 million), +3 deaths (now 224282) since an hour ago — Canada: +173 cases (now 196659), +18 deaths (now 9764) since 8 hours ago | 04:38 |
| pwr22 | <dTal "but the correct level of vigilan"> I wish people generally behaved that way | 04:52 |
| pwr22 | ☹️ | 04:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid: Far-right protesters attack Slovak government office over virus measures → https://is.gd/dHxwDX | 05:48 |
| ryouma | LjL: thanks | 06:09 |
| ryouma | need a turntable outdoors | 06:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: As lockdown eases, Israelis again gather against Benjamin Netanyahu → https://is.gd/K3RGd2 | 06:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: One arrested in threat to kidnap and kill US city mayor over COVID-19 mask mandate → https://is.gd/Is3fcD | 06:44 |
| metreo | some people feel very strongly about masks | 07:13 |
| metreo | I didn't wear one tody ;-) | 07:14 |
| metreo | ;-) | 07:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: As lockdown eases, Israelis again gather against Benjamin Netanyahu → https://is.gd/9LRPgx | 07:40 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Inhaled corticosteroids downregulate SARS-CoV-2-related gene expression in COPD: results from a RCT (80 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.19.20178368v1 | https://redd.it/jd6hvq | 08:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: As the coronavirus surges, a new culprit emerges: Pandemic fatigue → https://is.gd/UmGxdI | 08:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Lombardy, Italy: +2664 cases (now 123794), +13 deaths (now 17057) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +1435 cases (now 706863) since 14 hours ago — Netherlands: +983 cases (now 223017), +8 deaths (now 6767) since 4 hours ago — Arizona, US: +52 cases (now 230459) since 14 hours ago | 08:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: New Studies Show Blood Type May Affect A Person's Risk Of Catching COVID-19 And How It Impacts Them → https://is.gd/KbEjJC | 10:07 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: How the Sturgis Motorcycle Rally may have spread coronavirus across the Upper Midwest (10051 votes) | https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/10/17/sturgis-rally-spread/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=wp_politics | https://redd.it/jd58xr | 10:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid-19’s first wave largely missed southern Italy. The second wave is hitting it hard. → https://is.gd/i9LCNb | 10:41 |
| pwr22 | <metreo "some people feel very strongly a"> In what context? Indoors and close to others? | 11:29 |
| pwr22 | Or outdoors? | 11:29 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +475 cases (now 8.3 million), +1 deaths (now 224283) since 7 hours ago | 12:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Coronavirus survives on skin five times longer than flu: study: The coronavirus remains active on human skin for nine hours, Japanese researchers have found, in a discovery they said showed the need for frequent hand washing to combat the COVID-19 pandemic. → https://is.gd/rlxShH | 12:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Studies Offer New Evidence for Possible Link Between Blood Type and COVID-19 Susceptibility and Severity → https://is.gd/qlKX0N | 13:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Hope of COVID-19 vaccine deployment in UK by New Year: Report → https://is.gd/v9fbGE | 14:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +5217 cases (now 228234) since 6 hours ago — US: +104 cases (now 8.3 million), +1 deaths (now 224284) since 2 hours ago | 14:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Crisis in the Galapagos: Chinese fishing fleets and COVID-19 threaten a natural wonder → https://is.gd/RppOOR | 14:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Post - October 18 | Questions, images, videos, comments, unconfirmed reports, theories, suggestions → https://is.gd/UUnc9c | 16:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Swiss tighten measures to combat spike in COVID-19 cases → https://is.gd/zvW0MG | 16:18 |
| Jigsy | Lots of people outside... | 16:56 |
| Jigsy | ...not wearing masks. | 16:56 |
| dzho | where | 16:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Influencer Dies Of COVID-19 After Telling Followers It "Doesn't Exist" → https://is.gd/fb7ZLm | 17:02 |
| jacklsw | just another nature selection doing its work. | 17:05 |
| jacklsw | people choose not to believe it even with proofs | 17:05 |
| dzho | except that's not how any of it works | 17:13 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Melatonin is significantly associated with survival of intubated COVID-19 patients (93 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.15.20213546v1 | https://redd.it/jdh8so | 17:18 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +11705 cases (now 414241), +69 deaths (now 36543) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +15546 cases (now 722409) since 8 hours ago — US: +2919 cases (now 8.3 million), +12 deaths (now 224296) since 2 hours ago — Canada: +287 cases (now 196981), +5 deaths (now 9751) since 8 hours ago | 17:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Sweden shifts away from no-lockdown strategy amid growing case numbers → https://is.gd/LvR0DX | 17:24 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +1094 cases (now 198075), +6 deaths (now 9757) since 19 minutes ago — US: +6 cases (now 8.3 million) since 19 minutes ago | 17:36 |
| dTal | cloth masks are for talking to other people, you don't need them so much if you're just hanging out outside | 17:42 |
| dTal | and I doubt they help you at all if you're sharing an enclosed space with a c19-positive person for any great length of time | 17:43 |
| LjL | jacklsw: people nor wearing masks mostly cause others harm, not themselves | 17:51 |
| LjL | So natural selection wouldn't select against them, except perhaps for correlated reasons | 17:52 |
| jacklsw | right. others become collateral damages | 17:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +5275 cases (now 8.4 million), +93 deaths (now 224389) since 38 minutes ago | 18:06 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Twitter Removes White House Adviser's Tweet Saying Masks Do Not Prevent COVID-19 (10280 votes) | https://www.newsweek.com/twitter-removes-mask-tweet-white-house-adviser-1540081 | https://redd.it/jdewqf | 18:13 |
| LjL-Matrix | Percentage of positives among people tested (not total tests, unique people) in Italy, since Spring | 18:15 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +599 cases (now 8.4 million), +1 deaths (now 224390) since 36 minutes ago | 18:36 |
| metreo | Great now this: https://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-sc/2020/74137a-eng.php | 18:41 |
| Arsanerit | Facemasks make communication for lip readers difficult. | 18:46 |
| ecks | big if true | 18:46 |
| Arsanerit | Most people who die from covid are beyond reproductive age, therefore natural selection doesn't do much from an evolutionary point of view. | 18:47 |
| Arsanerit | (in fact, in Europe, the majority of women overall are beyond reproductive age) | 18:47 |
| metreo | we haven't had nearly enough time to adapt | 18:47 |
| metreo | there is no natural immunity to the virus | 18:47 |
| euod[m] | Arsanerit: if you really want to say covid has evolutionary effects, it'll result in A and B blood types becoming rare. | 18:49 |
| euod[m] | rarer. | 18:49 |
| metreo | nothing has been proven | 18:50 |
| euod[m] | huh? there's good evidence to show that infections of people with O blood group are rarer. | 18:50 |
| metreo | %papers blood group | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | metreo, 152 papers: Clinical Characteristics and Prognosis of Patients with COVID-19 Combineded with or without Diabetes, Hypertension or Coronary by Haoxiang Li et al, published on 2020-06-19 at [u'https://doi.org/10.21203/rs.3.rs-36840/v1', u'https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-36840/v1.pdf'] [... want %more?] | 18:50 |
| metreo | %more | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | metreo, [...] Relationship Between Blood Group and Risk of Infection and Death in COVID-19: a live Meta-Analysis by Fateme Pourali et al, published on 2020-06-08 at http://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2020.06.07.20124610 [...] → https://paste.ee/p/IWWpd | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | metreo, [...] or, those who develop new (acute) kidney injury (AKI) as a result of developing COVID-19. → https://paste.ee/p/UEKDW | 18:50 |
| Arsanerit | if covid stays around for 1000 years it may impact our evolution in some way. | 18:52 |
| Arsanerit | unlikely though | 18:53 |
| euod[m] | you could say that for anything. | 18:53 |
| dTal | Arsanerit: regarding lack of impact on natural selection, I think you're forgetting that reproductive fitness extends beyond just "alive" and "dead" | 18:53 |
| dTal | plenty of young'uns with 'long covid' | 18:54 |
| Arsanerit | dTal: I suspect much of that is still unknown. | 18:54 |
| dTal | much of what | 18:54 |
| Arsanerit | long covid | 18:55 |
| euod[m] | well we know that people have extremely long lasting, probably permanent damage. | 18:55 |
| euod[m] | there's no question of that. we just don't know the extent. | 18:55 |
| Arsanerit | Hmm, the "references and further reading" part of the enwiki article on long covid makes up the 80% of the article | 18:55 |
| Arsanerit | even for people who have mild or no symptoms? | 18:56 |
| dTal | especially for people with mild symptoms, from what I remember reading | 18:57 |
| Arsanerit | Oh, most of those references were addded 12 hours ago, perhaps someone is using those to significantyl expand the article | 18:57 |
| Arsanerit | people with mild symptoms have more long covid thas those with severe symptoms? that sounds surprising to me, but I'm a lay person. | 18:58 |
| dTal | although googling it right now, the main thing people are saying is there's not much correlation between severity and probability of long covid | 18:58 |
| dTal | so take the inverse correlation with a grain of salt | 18:59 |
| dTal | but the main thing is - yes, even for people with mild symptoms | 18:59 |
| euod[m] | part of the whole problem is that we don't really have a clear cut reason for a lot of what people are seeing. a lot of the impact is due to your own immune system. | 18:59 |
| dTal | yeah it's very auto-immuny | 18:59 |
| dTal | in presentation, that is; we still don't know what it is | 18:59 |
| Arsanerit | my brother-in-law was first tested positively and then tested negatively, we don't know if he was just asymptomatic or if it was a false negative; all his 45 contacts who self-isolated tested negative afaik, if it was a false negative it was a costly one for them (many self-employed people). | 19:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Top PLO official Erekat, sick with COVID, hospitalized in Israel → https://is.gd/e8GP8w | 19:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +1752 cases (now 8.4 million), +26 deaths (now 224416) since 33 minutes ago | 19:06 |
| lesmo | %cases Mexico | 19:51 |
| Brainstorm | lesmo: In Mexico, there have been 847108 confirmed cases (0.7% of the population) and 86059 deaths (10.2% of cases) as of 15 hours ago. 2.2 million tests were performed (38.9% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.2% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 12.3% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Mexico for time series data. | 19:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: The pandemic has eroded democracy and respect for human rights → https://is.gd/D9RgNb | 19:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +25264 cases (now 897034), +85 deaths (now 33477) since 15 hours ago — US: +2414 cases (now 8.4 million), +28 deaths (now 224444) since an hour ago — Canada: +49 cases (now 198124), +3 deaths (now 9760) since 2 hours ago | 20:06 |
| LjL | 25k... | 20:10 |
| LjL | and you still here people going "we're still not in as bad a situation as..." | 20:10 |
| LjL | can't they see we're just looking at our (short-term) future | 20:11 |
| LjL | especially if we ignore it, but honestly also if we don' | 20:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Wedding of 150 people, found by police helicopter, violates COVID-19 rule → https://is.gd/RJrfls | 20:43 |
| metreo | I remember when they used to fly around looking for drugs, these days? weddings are the target | 20:52 |
| LjL | de-facto, dTal: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/923668/Weekly_COVID19_Surveillance_Report_week_40.pdf page 41, tell me what you think of that | 20:59 |
| LjL | (please) | 20:59 |
| dTal | say pretty please | 20:59 |
| LjL | i said it | 20:59 |
| LjL | do you need audio proof? | 21:00 |
| dTal | reading | 21:00 |
| dTal | there's a lot of it | 21:03 |
| dTal | was there some specific angle you wanted? | 21:03 |
| de-facto | "Declines in prevalence can partially be explained by demographic differences in the donor population, such as later data including donors aged 70 years and older who were previously excluded from donating during lockdown. Waning immunity may also be a contributing factor to the lower prevalence." | 21:03 |
| dTal | hah, they're using google trends! | 21:05 |
| dTal | I think that's where I calculated my 3 week lag from | 21:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: World's coronavirus cases climbing at record level to 40 million → https://is.gd/siCiZr | 21:05 |
| dTal | it's so hard to keep track of reasoning chains | 21:05 |
| dTal | so many cached thoughts | 21:05 |
| de-facto | well the first question with seroprevalence studies always is how representative and comparable the samples were chosen as in if they were able to exclude bias or had comparable bias in each datapoint | 21:06 |
| de-facto | then of course if the cohorts had comparable environment and lifestyle | 21:07 |
| de-facto | also if the ELISA assays were taken at same delay to the expected date of infection, because if antibody titers decay exponentially with a biologic half life they will fall below the detection threshold at some time | 21:09 |
| de-facto | "The change in prevalence seen in some regions is likely to be largely driven by changes in the precise locations of sample collection. Declines in prevalence can be partially explained by demographic differences in the donor population as lockdown measures are relaxed. Examples include a reduction in attendance of regular donors in August and that donors aged 70 years and above were not allowed to donate during lockdown, but this | 21:12 |
| de-facto | exclusion was lifted from week 26. Waning immunity may also be a contributing factor to the lower prevalence. " | 21:12 |
| de-facto | so they admit its hard to distinguish the potential causes but mention waning immunity twice thats interesting | 21:13 |
| LjL | dTal, yes, what de-facto spotted | 21:14 |
| LjL | dTal, de-facto: my question is, okay, it could explained by different demographics. so why can't they just run their numbers again after removing the >70 people from them? | 21:14 |
| de-facto | good question, yet its still hard to estimate how comparable the data points may be | 21:16 |
| dTal | sampling bias isn't just demographic | 21:16 |
| de-facto | seems those are blood donors so i guess they decide themselves if they offer to donate blood and the rules if they are allowed to do so | 21:18 |
| LjL | dTal, but if that's the major difference, correcting for it should have the major effect | 21:19 |
| de-facto | was it known to them that they test for antibodies and would they have expected to get that information told when going to donate blood? | 21:19 |
| LjL | sure, there could be a million things | 21:20 |
| LjL | i just think it's potentially a very bad sign | 21:20 |
| de-facto | it may be indeed a sign of waning immunity, but for that claim to solidify they would have to try to exclude every other potential bias or cause for declining seroprevalence | 21:21 |
| de-facto | very interesting report though, hope they will investigate that further | 21:23 |
| LjL | Italy's PM is starting to address the nation now at http://www.governo.it/it/diretta-video | 21:35 |
| de-facto | Italian stream started | 21:35 |
| LjL | "This new ordnance will let us face the new situation to avoid a general lockdown. | 21:36 |
| LjL | The country cannot afford to stop again, which would compromise the whole economy. | 21:36 |
| LjL | The third trimster which just ended shows a higher rise than Spain, France or Germany. | 21:36 |
| LjL | But here are the new rules. | 21:36 |
| LjL | Mayors will be able to close streets and squares after 21:00 | 21:37 |
| LjL | All restaurants, bars, and other drinking and eating venues are allowed between 5am and midnight if there is table serving, otherwise only until 18:00 | 21:37 |
| LjL | Takeaway is allowed until midnight. | 21:37 |
| LjL | In restaurants, max 6 people per table, and all restaurants will need to show a sign indicating the maximum allowable number of people inside. | 21:38 |
| dTal | sounds pretty similar to UK | 21:38 |
| LjL | No limitation for eating venues in hospitals, airports and motorways. | 21:38 |
| dTal | not identical but broadly similar philosophy | 21:38 |
| LjL | Schools with continue in person. | 21:38 |
| LjL | High schools including liceo and technical institutes will need to favor remote learning, and in-person lessons will have to start at 9am and sometimes take place in the afternoons. | 21:39 |
| LjL | Contact sports remains banned, but individual sport activity will be allowed, as will professional sports. | 21:39 |
| LjL | Local fairs are are banned, while fairs with a national or international characters are allowed. | 21:40 |
| LjL | In public administration, all meetings will occur remotely unless there are motivated reasons. | 21:40 |
| LjL | We will also increase the ability to do smart working. | 21:40 |
| LjL | There has been intense dialog about gyms. We have contrasting news: very often, safety protocols are respected, but sometimes we get news that they aren't. So, we are giving gyms a week to upgrade protocols; if we will be satisfied with that, there will be no reason to close gyms. Otherwise, next week we will have to suspend activity in gyms and pools. | 21:41 |
| LjL | We know we will impose economical sacrifices to enterpreneurs. The government wants to restore their income. The strategy we are pursuing is not, and cannot be, the same as last Spring. | 21:42 |
| LjL | At first we didn't have enough PPE, nor the ability to do large-scale testing. | 21:42 |
| LjL | During the past months we worked hard, we doubled ICU beds and we increased medical personnel by half. | 21:42 |
| LjL | We started from nothing about masks, but now we are producing 20 million surgical masks per day. | 21:42 |
| LjL | We are among the few countries in the world who provide a surgical mask per student every single day, as well as more than 7 million to hospitals, nursing homes and polices forces. | 21:43 |
| LjL | We are aware that we still have various critical points. We reached 160k tests per day, but we must avoid having hours-long queues to get a test. | 21:43 |
| LjL | We never lowered our guard. We renewed the state of emergency, to continue strengthening our healthcare structures and improve conditions in schools and public buildings. | 21:44 |
| LjL | This new strategy stems from a detailed analysis of the epidemiological situation, as studied by the technical committee. | 21:44 |
| LjL | We must strive to preserve health but also economy, acting in the name of adequateness and proportionality. | 21:44 |
| LjL | Using masks, social distancing and handwashing are still fundamental. Especially in those situations where we often lower guards: like when we meet friends or family, we must have the utmost care. | 21:45 |
| LjL | We'll have to wait a few days to see the results of these new measures. We must continue doing sacrifices until monoclonal therapies and vaccines are available. | 21:45 |
| LjL | We will continue being very careful towards people with disabilities and their families. We will always be close to their needs. | 21:45 |
| LjL | The situation is critical. The government is here, but each one of us will have to do our jobs to get past this difficult moment. | 21:46 |
| LjL | Questions now. | 21:46 |
| LjL | Q: Should we not re-evaluate using the EU emergency fund? | 21:47 |
| LjL | A: If we take that money, we'll have to introduce new taxes or cuts, because public debt must be kept under control. Besides, for healthcare investments, we allocated 4 billion euros, and then we have the money from the "recovery fund". The emergency fund is not a panacea. | 21:48 |
| LjL | I will add that since the situation, despite the crisis we are facing, is economically positive for us at the moment... But interests on public loans are very low. When we keep this in mind, we must keep in mind we must compare the advantage in terms of interests, which is very low, with the risk of "stigma" of taking the emergency funds. | 21:49 |
| LjL | So I said, if we'll need cash, we will consider the emergency fund. But if this is not the case, then just taking the money just to solve a dispute within public debate makes no sense. | 21:50 |
| LjL | As to ICUs, we will continue distributing equipment to the regions that asked, we still have 1600 available, then everyone will have to do their part at the regional level. | 21:50 |
| LjL | Q: This year's financial law will by necessity have to face the economic crisis. How much do you think will be left for growths? Also, since various workers will have new difficulties, will the fund for individual companies be reinstated? | 21:51 |
| LjL | A: We must prepare to give money to the individuals who will face restrictions, such as eating venues. Some sums will have to be available for the rest of this year. | 21:52 |
| LjL | What we can't afford is giving money generally; it was done during the generalized lockdown, but as I said, the strategy is different now. We must reconcile economy with health, and many international analysts have been surprised by our economic growth. This means we must keep growing, so we must act selectively. | 21:53 |
| LjL | Q: There has been an intense and ample discussion as you said yourself on this new law, but the opposition did not take part. Do you mean to involve them in the coming days? | 21:53 |
| LjL | A: I told the Presidents of the House and Senate, and the leaders of the opposition, that I was about to sign this new law and discuss it with the public. I will be in Parliament during the next week. You see the curve is worrisome, it was urgent to intervene. | 21:54 |
| LjL | The Minister of Health was recently in Parliament, and we'll constantly keep in touch. | 21:55 |
| LjL | Q: Still about Parliament, next week there will be no voting in the House because there is a cluster; do you think there will be issues in the coming months? My second question is, based on data you know, should Italians start booking Christmas holidays, or is it better to wait? | 21:55 |
| LjL | A: One measure that may have a critical impact is that in public administrations, all meetings will have to happen remotely, unless there are motivated reasons to do it in person. Parliament has its own regulations, and I know in the House a new rule has been adopted to consider COVID-positive people as "in a mission", and while it's not part of my prerogatives, clearly we must act at all levels when many people are self-quarantined which can make | 21:57 |
| LjL | activities more complex. | 21:57 |
| LjL | About Christmas holidays... well, I cannot make predictions. I can only say: let's respect the rules, let's face this difficult time with trust and eventually we'll be able to resume our desired activities. | 21:58 |
| LjL | Thank you. | 21:58 |
| IndoAnon | LjL: whoa | 22:00 |
| de-facto | LjL, perfect translation thank you :)) | 22:00 |
| dTal | thanks LjL, you do us a real service | 22:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add October 18 2020 address to the nation by PM Conte → https://is.gd/Bks7qa | 22:12 |
| de-facto | your realtime translation capabilities are quite impressive :) | 22:29 |
| bin_bashtober | <333 LjL you're awesome, thank you | 22:36 |
| LjL | I am a bit underwhelmed | 22:46 |
| LjL | And also my stomach is full, but still underwhelmed | 22:46 |
| LjL | These new rules seem like... not much? | 22:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Swiss impose tighter virus rules as cases jump: The Swiss government said on Sunday it was making the wearing of masks in indoor public spaces compulsory under new measures introduced after a "worrying" rise in coronavirus infections. → https://is.gd/zYttkP | 22:56 |
| IndoAnon | LjL: yeah, they didn't set school to "remote only" and ban dining-in service | 23:08 |
| LjL | IndoAnon: those would have been bigger things, and they could come with a reduction in public transport capacity (which isn't really possible if people are going to school). But well, we'll pass 20000 like France and then he'll make a new law. Sigh. | 23:10 |
| de-facto | it seems to be similar in most EU countries, trying to prioritize on economy without realizing that it would not recover without bringing incidence down first | 23:15 |
| de-facto | what i dont get is that every country seems to have to go through the same trajectory despite the possibility of observing the future they decide for in the neighboring EU countries e.g. Spain, France etc | 23:18 |
| de-facto | for some reason each country thinks that its different for them not taking into account the possibility that all effects can easily be explained just by a delay in time | 23:19 |
| IndoAnon | LjL: softer approach doesn't work. They could have prevented wave of infection that warrant hard lockdown... Instead, they prioritize economy. Unfortunately, business can't thrive under uncertain times | 23:19 |
| dTal | de-facto: it is amazing that us few IRCers are so consistently more intelligent than all the world's governments | 23:22 |
| IndoAnon | de-facto is right, politicians do what politicians do. Uhh, which is giving false hope to the plebians and business owner like what they do all this time. | 23:22 |
| dTal | I am not sure if I mean that ironically or not | 23:23 |
| IndoAnon | dTal: unironically | 23:23 |
| de-facto | i am also not sure i would like to be in the position of the politicians, they have to do the final decisions everyone else pointing with fingers at them (thats much easier than being responsible) | 23:24 |
| de-facto | they have to find the balance for all interest groups, but still i think its pretty clear that economy wont thrive under the impact of the load from increasing incidence | 23:24 |
| de-facto | not to speak about the uncertainty blocking investments | 23:25 |
| LjL | DTal: here is the paradox where if you do the right thing and nothing bad (health-wise) happens, well, you've destroyed the economy "for nothing". In reality you have averted the worst but people can't observe the absence of something so they think they were just mistreated for no good reason | 23:26 |
| LjL | There* | 23:26 |
| IndoAnon | de-facto: which, should be the interest of... all the interest groups. Unless, there are few interest groups that benefits from constantly changing level of lockdown | 23:26 |
| LjL | If bad things do happen you can at least say, hey, we did some things but you comply well enough, or other excuses | 23:27 |
| dTal | of course, you will see the benefit in the future | 23:28 |
| dTal | but I think you're onto something, "cover your ass" explains behaviour better than "optimal outcome" | 23:28 |
| dTal | ideally, "cover your ass" would be equivalent to "optimal outcome" because people would ask "why didn't you do the thing with the optimal outcome" | 23:29 |
| dTal | but unfortunately, people are dumb | 23:29 |
| dTal | or at any rate, underinformed and disinclined to become informed | 23:29 |
| dTal | so politicians can say "we did our best" and not many people are in a position to say "no, you did shit" | 23:30 |
| dTal | or worse - people actively fight the course with the optimal outcome | 23:30 |
| IndoAnon | >kept the natives dumb | 23:31 |
| de-facto | i think that those countries having best success in containment will also turn out to have the least impact on their economy relative to each other countries, of course if restricting their containment to the most (cost)effective methods | 23:32 |
| de-facto | in my opinion most effective is early intervention, because later exponentially more effort is needed to regain control and wrestle it down | 23:33 |
| IndoAnon | >early intervention < totally | 23:35 |
| de-facto | meanwhile we just passed 40M worldwide | 23:35 |
| de-facto | %cases World | 23:35 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: In World, there have been 40.4 million confirmed cases (0.5% of the population) and 1.1 million deaths (2.8% of cases) as of a minute ago. 738.5 million tests were performed (5.5% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.3% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.7% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=World for time series data. | 23:35 |
| LjL | dTal, something i've noticed about a few IRCers being consistently more intelligent than politicians is: start having a political structure that binds those IRCers together, such as a council or something, and as a group they'll become as terrible as politicians | 23:35 |
| dTal | what a depressing thought | 23:36 |
| IndoAnon | dTal: unironically, waldo IRL (black mirror) | 23:37 |
| de-facto | so we will see how the choice of different strategies will be evaluated in the aftermath, i am curious in particular about the impact on economy for USA compared to China for example | 23:40 |
| LjL | i didn't know our PM's name was Coubuli and our Health Minister's was Doe | 23:55 |
| LjL | Doe is literally the name used for when there is no known name, so, that's SUSPICIOUS | 23:56 |
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