libera/##covid-19/ Wednesday, 2020-10-28

jacklswsince so many did get covid00:00
DocScrutinizer05Timvde: indeed, that's clickbait headline. Antibodies are just _one_ component of immune system, and it's well known they fade away quickly 00:01
DocScrutinizer05tinwhiskers: ^^^00:01
tinwhiskersjacklsw: no00:08
tinwhiskerswell, every person who has immunity provides a small break in the link of available infectious candidates so I suppose it helps to some level but really isn't effective until we get much higher rates of recovery than where we are at *anywhere* yet.00:09
TimvdeDocScrutinizer05: wrong mention? :P00:09
tinwhiskersThere may be some small communities that have reached slightly effective rates, but the studies that have found these are pretty questionable so far.00:10
tinwhiskersAlthough some prisons have reported rates of infection suitable to provide some herd immunity so I suppose I have to eat my words on that.00:11
tinwhiskersThe level for herd immunity is kind nebulous in humans anyway. Really it's the rate of recovered individuals required to reduce the R0 below 1 (such that the disease will decline to 0 given time) but R0 is pretty meaningless in human terms. We only have R_eff to go on since there is mask wearing, social distancing and other management having an impact. It *may* be that in some places with the current rates of infection and management 00:17
DocScrutinizer05Timvde: yes, sorry00:17
tinwhiskersthe R_Eff is < 1 but then it's pretty hard to say whether it's herd immunity or management at play.00:17
tinwhiskersIn most places if you took away the management you'd go well above an R_eff of 1 again.00:18
DocScrutinizer05what tinwhiskers said: herd immunity means R_eff<1. No way we got this anywhere yet00:19
DocScrutinizer05actually R_0 < 100:20
tinwhiskerswell, there are lots of places with R_eff below 1, but that's due to management, not herd immunity, almost for sure (may be rare exceptions).00:20
tinwhiskersright, R_000:20
blkshpit's weird to think that a year ago i was in the minority to know what an r_0 was00:22
tinwhiskersheh.00:22
blkshpand that was only because of a film00:22
blkshpthe one with Dustin hoffman!00:23
blkshpand the monkey00:23
blkshpwait, that may be the wrong movie!00:23
tinwhiskersoh. really... which one was that?00:23
blkshpno wait, was i contagion00:23
ryoumai think it was outbreak00:23
tinwhiskersI only saw that after covid00:23
jacklswdustin hoffman's movie is outbreak00:23
ryoumabut idr r0 there00:23
blkshpoutbreak was the one i was thinking but i was thinking of the one where there was a pig and a bat00:24
blkshpthe chef did it00:24
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Some Covid Survivors Have Antibodies That Attack the Body, not Virus → https://is.gd/OkyIjQ00:24
jacklswpig and bat are in contagion00:24
blkshpyes, im pretty sure i was thiknng of contagion00:24
blkshpi remember her explaining it on a whiteboard00:24
blkshpthey got the vaccine to people over a year with birthdates as the random qualifier to access to it00:25
jacklswya she is the r0, chef is the one started the spread00:25
blkshpyeah its that one00:25
tinwhiskersyes, I wonder how we'll decide who gets the vaccine first00:25
blkshpmoney00:26
tinwhiskerswell, what various methods countries will use.00:26
tinwhiskersthat'll certainly be a factor :-)00:26
ryoumathey should go to e.g. hcw first00:26
tinwhiskershcw?00:26
ryoumaassuming they are normal and healthy i.e. their populations were tested00:26
blkshpit's still so unreal00:26
ryoumadidn't see contaigion but it sound slike we had these movies preparing us, and that conference in (nyc?), but perhaps convincing us that the authorities, while having internal conflicts at most, were pretty much able to and willing to get the pandemic under control00:27
tinwhiskersyeah, that was overly hopeful :-/00:28
tinwhiskersbiggest plot flaw. government mostly sucks.00:28
ryoumawhy didn't we know this?  was the spanish flu similar?  were mers and such similar?00:29
tinwhiskersyeah. the same strategies apply to all.00:29
blkshpi wonder what would it be like if this had happened just 20 years00:30
blkshpago00:30
ryoumaor even just 600:30
ryoumain the us atg least00:30
blkshpat tme moment 80% of people can do their job from home, internet shopping allows us to get what we need, 20 years ago that wouldn't have been the case00:30
tinwhiskersI doubt it would have been much different tbh. it would take longer to get a vaccine, for sure, but the effective control strategies have not required any particular technology.00:30
tinwhiskersah, there is that00:30
tinwhiskerswe may be having slightly less economic harm thanks to technology00:31
ryoumabut we had fewer political issues00:31
tinwhiskersdid we?00:31
blkshpbut significant;y more human casualty because people would basically have to operate as normal00:31
ryoumathey were under the surface and might not have surfaced as much00:32
tinwhiskersmaybe00:32
jacklswnews don't spread that fast 10-20 years ago00:32
jacklswinternet wasn't that fast00:32
ryoumaextremism in the us was absolutely fringe until around the time freenode got these agitators spamming fringe youtube content00:32
tinwhiskerssure it did. it just spread through newspapers00:32
blkshpwould it all have been kept a secret00:32
jacklswwith better technology people move around the world more00:33
jacklswhelped spreading the virus like wildfire00:33
tinwhiskerspeople would telegraph/wire/fax/phone the news to the office and it woul dbe out that day. People looked to different places for news but it was still pretty quick for anything that mattered.00:33
BrainstormNew from Scientific American: Election Science Stakes: Medicine and Public Health: Medical personnel get a person's sample at a drive-thru Coronavirus COVID-19 testing station, March 12, 2020, San Francisco. → https://is.gd/tpnDaI00:33
ryoumai think politics is a bigger factor than anything else00:33
ryoumaspeak of hte devil00:33
tinwhiskersI think so too, but I don't think it was that much different 20 years ago00:34
ryoumai have to avoid news, but i still think the feeling in the us changed rather abruptly much more recently than 20y ago00:35
tinwhiskersI also don't think the smaller numbers of travellers would have made a huge difference just 20 years ago. It may have been less harmful to close borders so that may have happened more quickly, but there were still enough people moving around 20 years ago that the virus would have moved between regions.00:35
ryoumai didn't realize there were more travelers00:36
tinwhiskersI mean, it would probably help a bit, but wouldn't have prevented it getting where it has.00:36
tinwhiskerswhen was the last time anyone here bought a paper newspaper?00:37
tinwhiskersWe used to get it every day00:37
tinwhiskers(delivered daily)00:37
ryoumaon the island?00:38
tinwhiskersThat was probably about 30 years ago for rme.00:38
tinwhiskersno... lol00:38
tinwhiskersback in NZ when I was a youngun.00:38
ryoumayou could use ballistic tech to send over a parachute package00:38
jacklswnewspaper provides news without an easy way to feedback00:38
jacklswso people would be like oh yeah this happens eh, then go back to own life00:39
ryoumasocial media is television 2.0.  it polarizes.  i love lucy never did that.00:39
tinwhiskerssure. but that doesn't make it slower ot necessarily worse. It was arguably better back then when there were standards.00:39
jacklswnowadays online media where people can feedback, they key in some emotional and maybe hateful words and spread it back 00:40
ryoumai am thinking social media rots brains just as fast as television but in a worse direction.  dumb and hostile instead of just dumb.00:40
jacklswit has come to the point where faster internet doesn't benefit us00:40
tinwhiskersright. that's what people are used to now, but news had (some) more ethics back in the day and was still spread very quickly. 00:40
jacklswmore memes, stupid videos00:40
jacklswall for sponsorship and money00:40
tinwhiskersWe've had TV news for over 50 years that most of the country would tune into. We're not *more* informed now.00:41
jacklswtik tok is the worst offender of stupid videos00:41
tinwhiskersthere's access to things like academic papers that would take a lot longer back then but important stuff would still make to TV or newspaper.00:41
ryoumai think we are more informed.  but you have to know where to look.  and you have to know what to trust.00:41
ryoumascandals can come to light00:42
ryoumabut at the same time is the enormous amount of bile00:42
jacklswfaster internet convinced people to go anti-vaccine00:42
tinwhiskersyeah00:42
tinwhiskerskinda00:42
tinwhiskers:-)00:42
tinwhiskerssocial media did00:42
ryoumaand now it seems we have really sophisticated disinfo00:43
ryoumaon a larger scale00:43
tinwhiskersyeah. sorry bloody state we're in now.00:43
jacklswwell, better online shopping experience nowadays though00:44
tinwhiskersthere is that :-)00:44
jacklswjust constrained by how courier companies cope with orders00:45
DocScrutinizer05there's a virus pandemia and a infodemia of fake news. The former spreads pretty fast, the latter spreads faster than light. Former causes some fatalities, latter causes many fatalities. On the bright side fighting the first will mitigate the second. Downside: the infodemia catalyzes the virus pandemia00:55
DocScrutinizer05and a 20 years ago we definitely wouldn't have seen an infodemia the way we do right now00:57
LjLAnyone checked the last link Brainstorm posted about antiantibidies? Is it what we already knew, i.e. the immune system going crazy in severe cases, or something different and potentially more related to long covid? ryouma00:58
LjL14,99[00:19] 99,99 9,99Brainstorm:99,99 New99,99 from r/WorldNews:99,99 worldnews:99,99 Some Covid Survivors Have Antibodies That Attack the Body, not Virus → https://is.gd/OkyIjQ00:58
LjLThis one00:58
LjLIt's kinda paywalled depending on your luck00:58
jacklswwho made the studies that antibody attacks the body00:59
DocScrutinizer05LjL: seems old news01:01
LjLI don't know01:01
LjLIs it? The specific fact of autoantibodies being produced isn't something I remember reading01:02
DocScrutinizer05old as in: seen with other infections and highly anticipated or even already reported for sars-cov201:02
DocScrutinizer05infections triggering autoimmune disorders is not really new01:03
DocScrutinizer05actually I think it's normal to see those autoimmune antibodies and the question is how many you find and if they vanish again01:05
ryoumaLjL: idk.  i have access to it but not ability to read it atm.  dunno if there are issues with statistics or if it is stuff we already know re viruses.  i /think/ (at least some of) long covid is female-predominant which is suggestive of possible autoimmune issues but that is a small link to rely on.01:10
ryoumainteresting quotes though are e.g. "“It’s very possible that some of the coagulation issues that you see in Covid-19 patients are being driven by these kinds of immune complexes,” she said."01:10
LjLThat's a good ubLIX[m] quote01:11
ryouma"If the autoantibodies do turn out to be long-lasting, she said, they may result in persistent, even lifelong, problems for Covid-19 survivors. “You never really cure lupus — they have flares, and they get better and they have flares again,” she said. “And that may have something to do with autoantibody memory.”"01:11
ryoumawhy?01:11
LjLryouma: if long covid is female predominant while covid itself tends to be worse in males that seems kinda significant01:12
ryoumamaybe01:12
LjLJust because he "specialized" a bit in the blood clotting aspect same as you focus on long covid01:12
ubLIX[m]yes, i found the significance of clotting factors with respiratory viruses very interesting. i'm completely out of the loop now though, having ignored all covid news for at least a month. calming, but then i have no idea what's going on now. well i looked up the case numbers again and it looks like winter is going to be interesting, anyway01:17
DocScrutinizer05hmm...01:20
DocScrutinizer05"...the findings are not unexpected because other viral illnesses also trigger autoantibodies."01:20
DocScrutinizer05In other words, this virus is behaving like a virus.01:20
BrainstormUpdates for France: +5442 cases (now 1.2 million) since 5 hours ago — US: +3597 cases (now 9.0 million), +54 deaths (now 232017) since an hour ago — Canada: +25 cases (now 222944), +14 deaths (now 10013) since 3 hours ago01:21
semighostI had never even heard of autoantibodies before today01:26
semighostI guess some are long lasting and others are not01:27
ryoumaautoimmune diseases are long lasting.  idk whether this means the antibodies themselves are long lasting.01:29
ryoumacan be*01:29
ryoumaautoantibodies are afaik just antibodies to self-epitopes01:29
ryoumafwiw there are suggestions of, known issues with, or hypotheses of, clotting issues in m.e. (but that one either did not pan out or, as is extremely common, was dropped on the floor for lack of research funding), vascular regulation issues in m.e., and autoimmunity in m.e.  m.e. is thought to be female predominant.  men possibly get it more severely.  but keep in mind that m.e. might in principle be several diseases01:31
ryouma, possibly some or all interconnected or related.  anecdotally a bunch of autoimmune comorbidities seem to show up.  it is common in autoimmunity tha tyou get more htan one.  women seem to get hashimotos a lot but dunno if the base rate is high there to begin with so idk.  i don't think autoimmunity is being looked at as a major root-cause hypothesis for m.e. these days however.  it might be being considered as down01:31
ryoumastream of whatever the root cause is such as metabolic (pwme have to rely on anaerobic metabolism), t-cell, etc.  btw metabolically men and women who have m.e. differ a lot in screwed up biochem pathways according to maureen hanson work.  so studies will have to include both sexes.  traditionally studies have been on women.01:31
ryouma(and also, to get to the root of it you need to go to the houses of those who have the disease, not just take a sample of those who are capable of traveling to your lab, who are therefore, by definition, not severe)01:34
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Low Covid-19 fatality rates in countries with poor hygiene, low-quality water: study → https://is.gd/S8qyAV01:35
ryoumabut of course keep in mind that female predominance is not just an autoimmune thing, just a possibly small indicator i think01:37
ryoumahuh hygiene hypothesis?01:38
DocScrutinizer05m.e.?01:40
DocScrutinizer05hard to google01:41
ryoumaigg antibody therapy for e.g. hypogammaglobulinemia is typically pretty frequent (like more frequent than once per month).  so you do have to keep them topped up.  high doses are used in autoimmune diseases, but there is a difference in why.01:41
DocScrutinizer05yeah, sounds a lot like hygiene hypothesis01:43
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Some Covid Survivors Have Antibodies That Attack the Body, not Virus → https://is.gd/NyX9e301:44
DocScrutinizer05^^^ seems pretty related, both headlines01:45
DocScrutinizer05overshooting immune response01:46
ryoumaThey found autoantibodies that recognize DNA in nearly half of the patients. --- if his is anti ds dna then it refers to lupus --- They also found antibodies against a protein called rheumatoid factor and others that help with blood clotting. Among the top half of the most seriously ill patients, more than 70 percent had autoantibodies against one of the targets tested.... “It’s not just that these patients have02:00
ryouma an autoimmune-like immune response,” he said. “It’s that those immune responses are coupled with actual true testable clinical auto-reactivities.” Some of the autoantibodies the researchers identified are associated with blood flow problems 02:00
ryouma“Anytime you have that combination of inflammation and cell death, there is the potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies, more importantly, to emerge,”02:01
ryoumai am personally confused by the statistics of autoantibody testing02:04
LjLryouma: "among the top half of the most seriously ill patients, more than 70%" seems written to be confusing02:32
LjLOr to inflate a small number. It's still scary, you know I don't brush things off.. but that phrasing is all sorts of weird02:32
ryoumaLjL: both articles probably come from the same news source maybe?  and then edited.  so perhaps they said precisely what most seriously ill meant and then dropped it.02:41
ryoumabut yeah02:41
LjLi thought the MSN article was just the NYT article02:42
ryoumait sure sounds like a large effect size but might be tiny who knows02:42
ryouma"up to 60% smoother skin or more!"02:42
ryoumai didn't read the paper and my brain isn't working, just copying some stuff that looked interesting for those who don't have access02:44
ryoumai would like to know more about the vascular stuff just to learn02:49
metreo1in the lungs?03:02
metreo1all infections are indicated by overeager autoimmune responses no?03:06
metreo1that's what I thought the redness and swelling around a cut or whatever it03:07
metreo1is*03:07
tinwhiskersthat's not necessarily "overeager". 03:08
metreo1sure but ones own body is creating the infection03:08
tinwhiskersno03:08
metreo1or the classic symptoms of one like redness, swelling and pus formation03:09
tinwhiskersthe infection is caused by the spread of bacteria/viruses. Inflammation is a result of fighting that infection off.03:09
tinwhiskersthere is a proliferation of white blood cells and a lot of cell death with resulting toxins and detritus.03:10
tinwhiskersthe body doesn't "create the infection"03:10
tinwhiskersfighting off an infection is a messy business03:10
tinwhiskersthe conditions necessary to kill of a bacterial infection is also pretty harmful to healthy cells but a necessary evil.03:11
metreo1but the virus is in some cases producing an autoimmune disorder03:12
metreo1there is no evidence that people with pre-existing autoimmunity disorders are differently affected by covid-1903:14
tinwhiskersyes03:16
tinwhiskersbut with cuts, etc. the redness and inflammation is a symptom of the infection (a symptom of the body fighting it off), not the infection itself. The body doesn't produce the infection.03:17
tinwhiskersbut yes, inflammation is an indicator of infection.03:17
tinwhiskersas for "there is no evidence that people with pre-existing autoimmunity disorders are differently affected by covid-19" I don't know that is true.03:18
tinwhiskersI expect some people with certain autoimmune conditions very much have worse outcomes in general.03:19
metreo1apparently it hasn't been proven03:21
metreo1but that covid creates such a deficiency is pretty unique03:21
metreo1an autoimmune deficiency*03:21
tinwhiskersno, it's common to many viral infections03:21
tinwhiskersthere's no indication covid is worse in that regard03:22
metreo1a full on autoimmune disorder from which other virus?03:22
tinwhiskersmany03:22
metreo1lupus maybe03:22
tinwhiskersthere was a discussion about that earlier on.03:22
metreo1oh well no need to repeat it for me :)03:22
tinwhiskersI don't know which viruses myself, but it's apparently pretty common across a range of viruses.03:23
tinwhiskersI'll check the scrollback...03:23
metreo1lupus is not a virus?03:23
ryoumai'd like to know if covid is more than other viruses or about hte same and what other viruses do that and what autoimmune diseases are caused and for how long.  was this discussion before i joined?03:23
metreo1well as I know this is not at all common03:23
metreo1ryouma, yes03:24
ryoumaall i know is 18:01 <ryouma> “Anytime you have that combination of inflammation and cell death, there is the potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies, more importantly, to emerge,” -- which is disturbing to me as i hav ea lot of inflammation and also staph aureus03:24
tinwhiskersno, lupus is not a virus. It's a condition.03:24
ryoumawho said it was a virus?03:24
tinwhiskersI was just answering metreo103:24
metreo1which other virus creates an autoimmune disorder?03:25
ryouma(i also hafve anti-ds-dna)03:25
tinwhiskersEpstein-Barr virus (EBV) and measles virus. Type 1 diabetes: coxsackievirus B4, cytomegalovirus (CMV), mumps virus, and rubella virus. Rheumatoid arthritis: EBV, hepatitis C virus, Escherichia coli bacteria03:25
tinwhiskersthe first hit on google summary stopped there. look it up if you want a more comprehensive list.03:25
metreo1wow so covid is in a group with mumps and hep-C ... 03:26
tinwhiskersno...03:26
tinwhiskersthey just share the trait that they can trigger an autoimmune condition03:26
metreo1that is the gist of the breaking news03:27
tinwhiskerswell, that's an incorrect interpretation to make imo03:27
metreo1like this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_autoimmune_diseases might include covid03:27
metreo1https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/health/covid-antibodies-autoimmunity.html03:28
tinwhiskersright... amongst *many* viruses, covid can *also* trigger an autoimmune condition.03:28
metreo1but not like lupus or arthritis...03:28
tinwhiskersahhh03:28
tinwhiskersno03:28
tinwhiskerswhat?03:28
tinwhiskersno03:28
metreo1I'm talking about it like people who have an autoimmune disorder, unrelated to an infection03:29
metreo1covid is apparently causing this03:29
metreo1which explains the chronic symptoms03:29
metreo1and is very unique among viruses03:29
tinwhiskersyes, it can cause an autoimmune condition03:29
tinwhiskersno... *many* viruses can cause that03:29
metreo1which ones lol 03:30
tinwhiskersffs. I just gave you a list03:30
metreo1where the virus is gone but the autoimmunity disorder lingers?03:30
tinwhiskersright03:30
metreo1I don't think so03:30
tinwhiskers*sigh*03:30
metreo1hep-C is with you for life03:30
metreo1with covid you test free of the virus but you have a lasting autoimmune disorder attacking your body03:31
ryoumano part of long covid that i know of is known to be caused by autoimmunity.  except those who /get/ /known/ autoimmune diseases.03:31
tinwhiskersright, as with many other viruses listed03:31
metreo1which ones I can't see them 03:31
metreo1I mean I'm relaying expert opinion about that03:32
tinwhiskersno. You're misinterpreting expert information.03:32
metreo1ryouma, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/health/covid-antibodies-autoimmunity.html03:32
metreo1tinwhiskers, I'm sharing it verbatium03:32
metreo1covid is very unique in this respect03:33
tinwhiskersgoogle hit 1: https://www.everydayhealth.com/autoimmune-disorders/understanding/are-autoimmune-diseases-caused-by-infections.aspx03:33
tinwhiskerscovid is *not* unique in this respect03:33
DocScrutinizer05"...the findings are not unexpected because other viral illnesses also trigger autoantibodies."03:33
DocScrutinizer05In other words, this virus is behaving like a virus.03:33
tinwhiskersyeah, that was what I saw earlier. Thank you :-)03:33
ryoumaDocScrutinizer05: possibly more so, possibly the same so, for all we know by skimming and speculating03:34
ryoumait is premature, and quite possibly wrong given what m.e. researchers think, to conclude that the non-tissue-damage part of olong covid is autoimmune03:34
tinwhiskerswhat we call "long covid" may not be autoimmune but covid can trigger *other* autoimmune conditions like many other viruses.03:35
metreo1tinwhiskers, the article you shared merely speculates about lasting damage03:35
ryoumaright03:35
tinwhiskers"long covid" is an umbrealla term for a lot of conditions03:35
ryoumaright03:36
tinwhiskersthe thing is this triggering of auto immune conditions is neither well understood not particularly common but it known to occur, and now it is also known to occur with covid.03:37
tinwhiskers*nor particularly common03:37
metreo1tinwhiskers, from the link: "It is important to note that while the evidence is certainly mounting, researchers don't yet know for certain that previous infections increase the risk of developing autoimmune. "03:37
ryoumait occurs with vaccines too03:37
ryouma(can occur)03:38
ryoumawe can't just say viruses cause autoimmune a lot so non-tissue-damage long covid must e autoimmune03:39
metreo1ryouma, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/health/covid-antibodies-autoimmunity.html03:40
ryoumawe can say however that if a lot of sle and ra seem to be triggered  by covid then they are probably triggered by it03:40
tinwhiskersmetreo1: the very article you claim shows it's unique to covid also says, "the findings are not unexpected because other viral illnesses also trigger autoantibodies", so you can't take one position as "fact" from that article without the other.03:40
tinwhiskersas DocScrutinizer05 already pointed out03:41
ryoumawell, not really but we can form a good hypothesis at least03:41
metreo1tinwhiskers, it has been long speculated but never proven03:42
metreo1next sentence:03:42
tinwhiskersand indeed you can say the same about this new finding03:42
metreo1“I’m not surprised, but it’s interesting to see _that it’s really  happening,_” said Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at Yale University.  “It’s possible that even moderate to mild disease may induce this kind  of antibody response.”03:42
metreo1"it’s interesting to see that it’s really  happening,"03:43
metreo1It’s possible 03:43
metreo1that even moderate to mild disease may induce this kind  of antibody response03:43
tinwhiskersright, albeit rarely03:43
metreo1“It’s not just that these patients have an autoimmune-like immune  response,” he said. “It’s that those immune responses are coupled with  actual true testable clinical auto-reactivities.”03:43
tinwhiskers“Anytime you have that combination of inflammation and cell death, there is the potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies, more importantly, to emerge,” said Marion Pepper, an immunologist at the University of Washington in Seattle.03:44
metreo1Yes like in arthritis or lupus lol03:45
metreo1says nothing about virus03:45
tinwhiskerso.O03:45
metreo1The sentence literally before that one was talking about lupus03:46
metreo1In the typical response to a virus,  cells known as B immune cells make antibodies that recognize pieces of  viral RNA from the virus and lock onto them.But  in conditions like lupus, some B cells never learn to do this and  instead produce autoantibodies that glom onto DNA debris from dead human  cells, mistaking them for intruders. Something similar may be happening  in patients with Covid-19, the research suggests.“Anytime  you h03:46
metreo1ave that combination of inflammation and cell death, there is the  potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies, more importantly,  to emerge,” said Marion Pepper, an immunologist at the University of  Washington in Seattle.03:46
ryoumawhat is being discussed and does it need to be?03:46
metreo1Covid turns out to be a very unique virus03:47
tinwhiskersjesus03:47
tinwhiskersno, it doesn't03:47
metreo1why are there no viruses on this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_autoimmune_diseases03:48
tinwhiskersthose are the conditions, not the viruses that trigger them?03:48
tinwhiskersChikungunya virus can cause arthritus - https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/10/20/200805111703:48
metreo1that link has never been proven03:48
LjLmetreo1, are you being daft on purpose? "18<29metreo118> Yes like in arthritis or lupus lol <29metreo118> says nothing about virus" it had just being established (and there's nothing controversial in this, source: me) that viral infections result in "inflammation and cell death", for various reasons. if inflammation and cell deaths have "the potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies to emerge", then it follows that SINCE a virus can 03:49
LjLcause the inflammation and cell death, autoimmune disease and autoantibodies can emerge03:49
LjL*whew*03:49
LjLand good thing i had decided to take the day "off"03:49
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: Asia will be 'resilient' in a coronavirus second wave. Here's how to invest, says Credit Suisse: As parts of the world brace for a second wave of Covid-19 infections, the economic impact on Asia will likely be "limited" as the region remains resilient, according to a Credit Suisse strategist. → https://is.gd/8lWgne03:50
ryoumalogical03:50
tinwhiskershttps://www.jimmunol.org/content/184/10/5914?ijkey=e225df40a97092238b435117e401c24ac51edecd&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha03:51
tinwhiskers^ Persistent Chronic Inflammation and Infection by Chikungunya Arthritogenic Alphavirus in Spite of a Robust Host Immune Response03:51
tinwhiskersThere's plenty of papers that provide a pretty good case that covid is not unqiue in this regard03:51
metreo1introduces "post-CHIKV RA-like arthritis"03:52
metreo1RA-like not RA its self03:52
tinwhiskerssmh03:52
metreo1Arthritis is a term often used to mean any disorder that affects joints03:52
tinwhiskersYou go on believing whatever you like in spite of evidence to the contrary then.03:52
ryoumawhat is chikungunya virus03:53
metreo1Look it says you have a persistent infection "It is plausible that CHIKV persisting in immunoprivileged niches (called  here sanctuaries) contributes directly to synovial tissue damage."03:53
metreo1ryouma, a virus which may or may not cause lasting autoimmue disorders03:54
ryoumayeah, i kinda picked that up from here just now...03:54
metreo1"CHIKV may trigger persistent joint pain and arthritis-like pathology  with mechanisms possibly involving not only host-derived inflammatory  cytokines but also the virus itself hijacking the “soldier” of the  innate immune system," looks like it's not proven03:55
LjLyou know what else is not proven with 100% certainty?03:55
LjLjust about everything in medicine03:55
metreo1or some combination of the two like with hep-C where you have the virus in you but liver scarring becomes another problem as well03:56
LjLit's not proven with that amount of certainty about COVID, either, despite what the article that stated all this may claim03:56
metreo1well this NYT article is supposedly a pretty big breakthrough03:56
tinwhiskersthe very article you claim as some sort of gold standard contradicts you saying that it is not unexpected.03:56
ryoumathis is exhausting and annoying03:56
LjLyou are using double standards metreo103:56
tinwhiskersit's evidence that this virus *also* does the same as other viruses, which is good to know.03:56
LjLit is becoming quite annoying03:57
metreo1it's been expected but no single virus has been proven to do it is what I'm saying and the wording of the article supports that03:57
LjLyou are picking and choosing what counts as certain and what doesn't03:57
LjLit is a goddamn NYT article03:57
LjLit is not a peer-reviewed paper03:57
LjLyou're making a mountain out of a molehill here03:57
metreo1written about peer-reviewed science03:57
tinwhiskersyes, well, I think I'll move on now :-/03:58
LjLi think everybody will move on03:58
metreo1well all I'm saying is that it's very rare for a virus to cause autoimmune disorders and if the early indications are true than covid is very unique if not a first03:58
LjLwell what you are saying is wrong03:58
metreo1says nobody03:59
tinwhiskersit is rare, yes.03:59
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Indian outfit wins UN award for efforts to combat climate change amid COVID-19 → https://is.gd/9HG53l03:59
LjLif there are many not certain, but likely indications that a BUNCH of viruses cause autoimmune disorders, just because it's not "proven" to your very stringent standards doesn't allow you to say "it's very rare for a virus to cause autoimmune disorders", because THAT is also a statement backed by NO science03:59
LjLmetreo1, you are the nobody who says nothing now for a while03:59
LjLsheesh03:59
LjLhuge loss04:01
LjLabout 12 minutes ago i jumped into a discussion and asked someone whether he's being daft on purpose. that's usually a good indication that if they continue acting the same way, eventually i'll type one of the shut the hell up commands. just saying in case what happened is unclear to anybody04:03
questshuneverythSLO KILL04:13
DocScrutinizer05LjL: overdue :-(04:17
DocScrutinizer05sorry :-)04:17
ryoumaah mosquito04:22
ryoumachikungunya04:22
tinwhiskersyeah, a lot of people end up with chronic fatigue syndrome from it04:25
tinwhiskersthere's some murmouring about parksinson's and other things being triggered by it too. Perhaps not *proven* but it's well known that you can end up with life-long problems if you get that.04:26
tinwhiskersor, earlier onset parkinson's anyway04:26
LjLquestshuneveryth, excuse me?04:27
tinwhiskerslol04:27
tinwhiskersoh. that's a person. ok04:27
ryoumaindian ocean?04:37
LjLwhat? O.o04:37
ryoumachikungunya outbreak.  although i had heard the name, i didn't iknow anything about it or forgot it.  and the fact that it is mosquito borne is interesting.04:40
LjLoh04:40
ryoumaooc, where did you get this from? --- 20:25 <tinwhiskers> yeah, a lot of people end up with chronic fatigue syndrome from it04:41
tinwhiskersit's well known here in the pacific islands04:41
ryoumaah04:42
tinwhiskersplus I heard a radio show about it :-)04:42
ryoumanpr or so/04:42
ryouma?04:42
ryoumawhich are... forgive my geography... somewhat south of indian ocean?04:42
tinwhiskersour "Radio NZ" is state funded, much like BBC and has some excellent science programmes at times.04:43
ryoumabtw, what island group is closest to tonga?  is it more than 14d sail distance?04:43
tinwhiskerseast of australia04:43
ryoumais the long term sequelae well known in the islands?04:43
tinwhiskersFiji is probably the closest04:43
tinwhiskersSamoa and Niue otherwise04:43
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Fitness: ‘From 40 to 4 push ups’: A look at Tamannaah Bhatia’s first workout post-COVID recovery → https://is.gd/IdpvKv04:44
tinwhiskersI've not heard of "long term sequelae".04:44
tinwhiskersYou can sail to Fiji in about 5 days04:44
ryoumalong term symptoms after recovering from the initial virus04:44
ryoumaseemingly*04:44
ryoumaok04:44
LjL"Following a local epidemic of chikungunya in Italy, 66% of people reported muscle pains, joint pains, or asthenia at one year after acute infection.[24]" ← this is why i shouldn't read about things -.-04:45
ryoumaso your ports are not safe all by themselves04:45
ryouma:/04:45
tinwhiskerswe've had three people sail in now without permission. 04:45
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: COVID-19 associated arterial ischaemic stroke and multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children: a case report (88 votes) | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30314-X/fulltext | https://redd.it/jjda1x04:45
tinwhiskersThey were all spotted by locals and reported, not by the "Navy" patrol.04:45
ryoumaso there's really no place that is infrequently visited or patrolled that you can moor off of and get to shore for a bit?04:46
questshuneverythROB ZOMBIE KINGDOM CUMIN04:46
tinwhiskersyou could get onto one of the little unpopulated islands, I'm sure, but I doubt you would make the mainland for supplies or anything like that.04:47
LjL-Matrixquestshuneverything: do you intend to contribute anything but nonsense?04:47
ryoumathe little islands then would need to support you in gettin gto the main island i guess04:47
tinwhiskersall the sailors and fishermen recognise unknown sailing vessels as such.04:47
ryoumainteresting04:47
tinwhiskersboat people are crazy about details :-/04:48
tinwhiskersthere's really not that many yachts here that it's hard to keep track of if you're into that stuff.04:48
ryoumamakes sense04:49
ryoumai read your blog btw04:49
tinwhiskersoh. nice :-)04:49
tinwhiskersI'm sorry for you.04:49
ryoumait was interesting04:50
tinwhiskersheh. thanks04:50
LjLburned down toilets!04:52
tinwhiskers:-(04:52
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: US hospitals are reeling under a 45% spike in COVID-19 patients → https://is.gd/qJXDFn05:02
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Decline in mortality among hospitalised covid-19 patients in Sweden: a nationwide observational study (80 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.27.20220061v1 | https://redd.it/jj6w4t05:05
ryoumaone thing i do not understand is why emergency rooms have chairs and not places to lie down05:10
tinwhiskersryouma: agreed05:18
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Sarson ka saag is your go-to immunity dish this winter; here’s why → https://is.gd/Hkqf6q05:32
BrainstormUpdates for Belgium: +13571 cases (now 347289), +139 deaths (now 11038) since 21 hours ago — France: +8354 cases (now 1.2 million) since 4 hours ago — US: +3668 cases (now 9.0 million), +67 deaths (now 232084) since 4 hours ago — Canada: +669 cases (now 223613), +7 deaths (now 10020) since 4 hours ago06:07
BrainstormUpdates for France: +8648 cases (now 1.2 million), +19 deaths (now 35560) since 17 minutes ago — Lombardy, Italy: +5035 cases (now 162968), +58 deaths (now 17310) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +2580 cases (now 315020), +17 deaths (now 7173) since 17 minutes ago — United Kingdom: +1544 cases (now 919119) since 12 hours ago06:22
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: ‘We’re in Hell’: Russia’s Second Wave of Covid-19 Is Catching the Regions Off Guard → https://is.gd/gjIv9N06:52
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: U.K. and France Report Most Deaths Since First Covid-19 Wave → https://is.gd/pJv7ox07:10
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Covid2019: Some Covid Survivors Have Antibodies That Attack the Body, not Virus New research found ‘autoantibodies’ similar to those in lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients. But patients may also benefit from treatments for those autoimmune diseases. → https://is.gd/9XtWCE07:37
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: China: An unpopular winner in the year of the coronavirus → https://is.gd/p3IDIf07:55
cloud69%help08:35
Brainstormcloud69: Hi, I am LjL's bot! Say %modules or %commands to me in private to see my features. 08:35
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: White House Declares Pandemic Over As It Cites Renowned Scientist Ivanka Trump → https://is.gd/QD5P8I08:40
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Experts outline key challenges for assessing clinical efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines: Collaboration and standardised approaches for assessing different vaccine efficacy endpoints are key for meaningful comparison of different COVID-19 vaccine candidates to ensure that the most effective vaccines are deployed, say authors of an [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/sT8JBZ08:58
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_ITALIA: Il vaccino anti-Covid c'è già: ecco chi lo sta usando → https://is.gd/LegKwA09:16
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Governor bans indoor dining in Chicago as virus cases surge: Surging COVID-19 cases in Chicago prompted Gov. J.B. Pritzker on Tuesday to ban indoor dining and bar services and limit the number of people gathering in one place. → https://is.gd/aa7cE809:25
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Global COVID Cases For 28OCT20: Summary As Of: 28OCT20 @ 08:23 GMT Countries 215 + 2 Cases 44,285,074 Deaths 1,172,136 Recovered 32,467,181 Active Cases 10,645,757 w/Active cases w/No Active cases w/All cases rcvrd Cntry’s 207 2 6 Cases 44,285,074 84 109 Deaths 1,172,136 2 0 Rcvrd 32,467,181 82 109 Daily totals of new: cases, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/PpW5BB09:43
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Opinion: There’s no place like home for older and high-risk people to get Covid-19 vaccines: We believe that the home should be a focal point in the effort to eradicate Covid-19. Bringing vaccines to the home also gives providers another opportunity to visualize the management… → https://is.gd/bRKlXx09:52
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Researchers find confusion over masks for wildfire, COVID-19 crises: To mask or not to mask—and which mask to use? With public health guidance about masks in the United States confused by political hedging, clarity around mask use is increasingly important, especially as the western U.S. battles the twin crises of wildfire [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/dpFajO10:46
BrainstormUpdates for US: +1140 cases (now 9.0 million), +17 deaths (now 232101) since 5 hours ago10:53
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Divided Belgium turns into Europe's worst virus hot spot: Small, yet so divided, Belgium has been hit hard again by the pandemic, and now presents some of the most worrying statistics in a continent reeling under the virus' resurgence. → https://is.gd/tqfJXd10:55
BrainstormNew from PubMed: Northern Territory COVID-19 Response Group: Successful containment to date of SARS-CoV-2 transmission in the Northern Territory → https://is.gd/HXqTbX11:22
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: China virus epicenter Hubei lags as regional growth picks up → https://is.gd/dsoRvA11:31
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: France and Germany prepare for lockdown as cases surge in the two countries → https://is.gd/sIc5jY11:49
BrainstormNew from The Atlantic: This Is the Coronavirus Election: Editor’s Note: The Atlantic is making vital coverage of the coronavirus available to all readers. Find the collection here . The president’s response to the pandemic should not have been a surprise. In December 2016, a month before Donald Trump was inaugurated, I asked how a pandemic would [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/9mBVWP12:07
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_ITALIA: Ladispoli, positiva organizzò doppia festa di compleanno al figlioletto: la madre si contagia e muore → https://is.gd/dWC1VQ12:16
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: For the first time since the Pandemic Began, The U.S has reported over 500,000 cases in one week. (10008 votes) | https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1321283046625169411 | https://redd.it/jjfxfc12:19
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: Boeing earnings are out — here are the numbers: Boeing is set to report another rough quarter as it faces weak jetliner demand, the continued grounding of its 737 Max and the coronavirus pandemic → https://is.gd/NqOTk912:34
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +8616 cases (now 135658), +7 deaths (now 2154) since 21 hours ago12:39
BrainstormNew from BMJ: Covid-19: Sidelining GPs in pandemic response was “a disaster,” says global health leader: The sidelining of general practices in the UK’s response to the covid-19 is a “disaster” and “a national shame,” a leading global health expert has said.Anthony Costello, professor of global health... → https://is.gd/FyvOMQ12:43
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: 5 things to know before the stock market opens on Wednesday: U.S. stock futures were down sharply as traders fear the rising number of coronavirus cases could hurt the economic recovery. → https://is.gd/s0R2Ie13:19
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: South Koreans offer world lessons on how to tame coronavirus → https://is.gd/sobwcS13:38
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: EU chief calls for common tests, tracing as virus surges: As European Union countries weigh tougher coronavirus restrictions, including possible new lockdowns, a top EU official on Wednesday urged the 27 member states to introduce common rules to test for the disease and track its spread to help prevent further damage to their economies. → https://is.gd/H6trDa13:47
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Potential COVID-19 diagnosis with a non-invasive breath test that provides almost instant results: Initial findings from a new study led by Loughborough University—published by The Lancet—has shown how COVID-19 can be detected via a non-invasive breath test, providing almost instant results. → https://is.gd/nB5GMf13:55
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: (news): U.S. agrees to pay Eli Lilly $375 million for 300,000 doses of coronavirus antibody drug → https://is.gd/JBOSJt14:04
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +2 deaths (now 2156) since an hour ago14:10
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Does the COVID-19 pandemic impact parents' and adolescents' well-being?: The COVID-19 pandemic and associated measures during the first lockdown in the Netherlands in March 2020 caused major changes in daily life. Parents worked from home and children followed school online. Therefore, the families were forced to spend more [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/RomYDi14:13
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Q&A: Technostress is one pandemic stressor nurses might be overlooking: Nurses have a lot on their minds right now, whether caring for patients with COVID-19, tracking down personal protective equipment, or worrying about their families' safety or their children's education. → https://is.gd/G5AqLz14:22
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Q&A: Despite COVID-19 risks, older people experience higher emotional well-being than younger adults: Despite being most at risk of contracting COVID-19 and suffering health complications due to the virus, older adults reported feeling calm more often than younger people, and were less likely to report negative emotions like [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/M0xEOI14:31
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 awareness and understanding among the public has increased, while skepticism declined, researchers report: When sweeping lockdowns changed nearly every aspect of daily life in March, the world sat up and took notice of the novel coronavirus. Since then, terms such as social distancing, aerosols, asymptomatic, and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/seNY8j14:40
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Study reveals mouth as primary source of COVID-19 infection, spread: A first-of-its-kind study shows the mouth is a robust site for infection and transmission of COVID-19, according to new research published Oct. 27 on the preprint server medRxiv. → https://is.gd/yhLZOd14:50
IndoAnonRemember, it's not "recovered". It's temporarily healthy 14:57
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Calculating possible fallout of Trump's face mask remarks: As COVID-19 deaths in the nation top 225,000, President Trump continues to downplay the severity of the pandemic, belittle government infectious disease experts such as Anthony Fauci, and display a cavalier attitude at times toward key public health measures like [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/EhYGZh14:58
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: How care pathways contribute to improving oncological care: Care pathways for cancer patients play an important role in improving the quality of care and the outcomes of this care. This is the conclusion of Jolanda van Hoeve in her doctoral thesis that she will defend at the University of Twente on 29 October. However, the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/RALYRJ15:07
BrainstormUpdates for US: +3374 cases (now 9.0 million), +42 deaths (now 232143) since 4 hours ago — Switzerland: +2 deaths (now 2158) since an hour ago15:20
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Reducing the cost of coronavirus testing would likely result in higher willingness to be tested: Where and how long can schools remain open in times of the coronavirus pandemic? How safe are public transport means? Which rules must be observed when organizing events? To answer these questions, systematic tests for coronavirus [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/8RpULg15:26
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: The flu, a cold, allergies or COVID-19? How to decipher symptoms: Let's say you have a runny nose, headache and cough. Are they signs of COVID-19 or just a run-of-the-mill common cold? → https://is.gd/QkWZp615:35
BrainstormUpdates for US: +425 cases (now 9.0 million), +4 deaths (now 232147) since 17 minutes ago15:35
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Achieving COVID-19 herd immunity through infection is dangerous, deadly and might not even work: White House advisers have made the case recently for a "natural" approach to herd immunity as a way to reduce the need for public health measures to control the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic while still keeping people safe. This idea is [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/zbQps615:44
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Over 500,000 virus cases worldwide in new daily record: More than 500,000 new coronavirus cases were reported worldwide on Tuesday in a new record, according to a tally from health authorities compiled by AFP. → https://is.gd/prXtIs15:53
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: Covid cases, hospitalizations continue to surge as U.S. reaches 'critical point' in pandemic: Adm. Brett Giroir acknowledged that increased testing alone cannot explain the surge in cases, even as President Donald Trump attributes the surge to testing alone and continues to downplay the outbreak. → https://is.gd/LK0n9V16:02
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): COVID19: Lilly announces agreement with U.S. government to supply 300,000 vials of investigational neutralizing antibody bamlanivimab (LY-CoV555) in an effort to fight COVID-19 → https://is.gd/3jTrsr16:11
BrainstormNew from In The Pipeline: Click Chemotherapy: So here’s an ambitious idea that’s about to get a hearing in human clinical trials. A startup called Shasqi is using click chemistry as a drug delivery method, and they have a new manuscript on the idea here at ChemRxiv. The idea is this: you produce a modified version of a hyaluronate biopolymer, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Yo0wxG16:20
BrainstormUpdates for US: +8766 cases (now 9.1 million), +125 deaths (now 232272) since 50 minutes ago16:20
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: NIH SARS-CoV-2 Antiviral Therapeutics Summit, Nov. 6th. Virtual, free to attend, no registration required. → https://is.gd/Hp6oUz16:29
Jigsy%cases UK16:34
BrainstormJigsy: In United Kingdom, there have been 917575 confirmed cases (1.4% of the population) and 45712 deaths (5.0% of cases) as of 10 hours ago. 32.4 million tests were performed (2.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data.16:34
metreo.cases canada16:43
Brainstormmetreo: In Canada, there have been 224650 confirmed cases (0.6% of the population) and 10023 deaths (4.5% of cases) as of 10 minutes ago. 9.7 million tests were performed (2.3% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.1% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 5.1% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Canada for time series data.16:43
BrainstormNew from BMJ: Covid-19: More must be done to protect ethnic minority communities in the second wave, review says: The government has not done enough to protect the UK’s black, Asian, and minority ethnic (BAME) communities ahead of the second wave of covid-19, a review by Doreen Lawrence has warned.In a review1... → https://is.gd/xQ9V2o17:06
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Lilly announces agreement with U.S. government to supply 300,000 vials of investigational neutralizing antibody bamlanivimab (LY-CoV555) in an effort to fight COVID-19 (80 votes) | https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lilly-announces-agreement-us-government-supply-300000-vials | https://redd.it/jjp8wz17:14
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Wednesday 28 October Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/vK5vou17:15
BrainstormUpdates for Italy: +24988 cases (now 589766), +205 deaths (now 37905) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +23156 cases (now 942275) since 11 hours ago — Netherlands: +4971 cases (now 319991), +37 deaths (now 7202) since 11 hours ago — US: +2820 cases (now 9.1 million), +45 deaths (now 232317) since an hour ago17:21
DocScrutinizer05%title https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/die-beschluesse-des-corona-gipfels-deutschland-geht-wieder-in-den-lockdown/26566726.html17:24
BrainstormDocScrutinizer05: From www.tagesspiegel.de: Die Beschlüsse des Corona-Gipfels: Deutschland geht wieder in den Lockdown - Politik - Tagesspiegel17:24
BrainstormNew from WebMD: COVID-19 Antibodies Decline Over Time, Study Shows: Rather than building up immunity, the number of people with antibodies fell from 6% at the start of the study to 4.4% at the end – a drop of about 26.5%, the release said. → https://is.gd/tl7SNG17:32
BrainstormUpdates for US: +1270 cases (now 9.1 million), +9 deaths (now 232326) since 33 minutes ago — Canada: +116 cases (now 224766), +8 deaths (now 10031) since 33 minutes ago17:51
cmpx[m]JHU data is still lagging, like 2+ days, wonder why that is, they are at 8.8 for US17:54
metreoThey are *ahead* of Canada's official numbers for whatever reason17:57
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: Sanofi, GSK to provide 200 million Covid vaccine doses to WHO global immunization program: Sanofi and GSK's vaccine is further behind in clinical development than some of the front-runners, such as Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca, which are all in late-stage trials. → https://is.gd/9vG1P418:00
BrainstormNew from WebMD: Manage Risk to Stay Safe for COVID Thanksgiving: Thanksgiving will be another holiday impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic, with the CDC and other experts recommending either significantly scaled-down, socially distanced activities or replacing the usual traditions with virtual ones to avoid exposure to the airborne illness. → https://is.gd/bJ93Oa18:36
cmpx[m]<metreo "They are *ahead* of Canada's off"> They have been consistently ~300k behind in the US data for about a week18:44
BrainstormUpdates for Spain: +19765 cases (now 1.2 million), +168 deaths (now 35466) since a day ago — US: +11903 cases (now 9.1 million), +172 deaths (now 232498) since an hour ago — Canada: +1 cases (now 224767) since an hour ago18:51
metreocmpx, yes I see that, the information coming out of the US is much more detailed maybe19:03
BrainstormUpdates for US: +3119 cases (now 9.1 million), +43 deaths (now 232541) since 17 minutes ago19:06
cmpx[m]metreo: maybe, I know the underlying JHU data has state, county, city breakdown in it.19:09
metreothey have been lagging for quite some time tbh19:19
BrainstormNew from WebMD: We Asked Five Experts for COVID Thanksgiving Advice: Thing you're ready for Thanksgiving during a pandemic? We asked five scientists and doctors for their best tips. → https://is.gd/oKDgym19:22
bin_bashThing indeed19:23
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Iran Reports Record-High Daily Rise in Its COVID-19 Fatalities | 28OCT20 → https://is.gd/JUcJUE19:40
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: Watch live: Dr. Anthony Fauci discusses coronavirus developments with the JAMA Network: White House coronavirus advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci is scheduled to hold a discussion Wednesday with the the Journal of the American Medical Association. → https://is.gd/uZgKOC19:50
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Following a renewed, sharp increase in COVID cases, France imposes a national lockdown → https://is.gd/WgZ0ey20:44
BrainstormUpdates for US: +18162 cases (now 9.1 million), +194 deaths (now 232735) since an hour ago — France: +13993 cases (now 1.2 million), +244 deaths (now 35785) since 14 hours ago — Canada: +60 cases (now 224827), +1 deaths (now 10032) since 2 hours ago20:52
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: (news): Germany, France announces new Covid restrictions as outbreaks surge across Europe → https://is.gd/0p9eDn20:54
BrainstormNew from PLOS ONE: Comparing static and dynamic emotion recognition tests: Performance of healthy participants: by Sara Khosdelazad, Lieke S. Jorna, Skye McDonald, Sandra E. Rakers, Rients B. Huitema, Anne M. Buunk, Jacoba M. Spikman Facial expressions have a communicatory function and the ability to read them is a prerequisite for understanding [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/l0DS1w21:03
LjLde-facto, germany on full lockdown too?21:10
LjLsays <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Coronavirus: France and Germany have announced second national lockdowns → https://is.gd/1Fwk7T21:10
tinwhiskersgreat news... at last.21:20
tinwhiskersit'll be fascinating to watch the effect of these.21:20
LjLtinwhiskers, well i don't know what Germany is doing exactly but for France having to wait until you have >70k *a day* is a bit insane21:23
LjLi don't know how long it'll have to be now to go down to manageable numbers21:24
tinwhiskersoh... 21:24
tinwhiskersso if it drops back below 70k/d the lockdown ends?21:24
DocScrutinizer05some negineers around? what do you think of a regulator system that adjusts the actors based on current measurement value, knowing that the actors take 3 weeks to take effect? each engineer can tell you such a system will overshoot and possibly even oscillate violently. We need a "corona traffic sign" and associated regulations that act not on today's value like >50_per_k_7days but on the forcast of this value for 3 weeks into the 21:25
DocScrutinizer05future21:25
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: U.S. adds 73K more cases; Dr. Anthony Fauci says end of COVID-19 'not even close' (10122 votes) | https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/10/28/US-adds-73K-more-cases-Dr-Fauci-says-end-of-COVID-19-not-even-close/4991603882751/ | https://redd.it/jjpb2021:26
DocScrutinizer05it's terrifying that this simple concept obviously is unheard of in German politics21:27
LjLtinwhiskers, no, i sure hope not. it says it will continue until at least december 1st. also i've skimmed the article now and the german one doesn't seem like a comparably full lockdown, people are still allowed to go places from what i understand21:31
tinwhiskersoh well21:31
DocScrutinizer05german "lockdown" is a joke21:38
DocScrutinizer05this "lockdown" basically is "don't meet with others" and "please don't travel" plus "restaurants will close"21:40
JigsySo it's like the UK lockdown?21:40
Jigsy"Don't meet with others, but do." "Don't go to work, but do." "Don't go to restuarants, but do."21:40
DocScrutinizer05the "don't meet with others" would be great if it was enforced and not just a applicable for >10 people of two households in public21:41
DocScrutinizer05Jigsy: basically the first 2, yes. Restaurants will close completely so the thrid doesn't apply21:42
DocScrutinizer05wait, no, "don't go to work" also missing21:43
DocScrutinizer05I'm seriously concerned _this_ "lockdown" won't cut it21:44
DocScrutinizer05if it does then only because many smart people do *more* than what this fake lockdown demands for21:45
DocScrutinizer05another fallacy, this time narrator is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helge_Braun >>we shown in summer that we're able to manage it<< no you didn't. You *should* have acted as soon as R_eff went greater 1, you didn't and instead watched incidences per day rise and rise until it went *boom*22:05
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Video provides guidance on surgery to wean patients with COVID-19 off ventilators: A temporary tracheostomy—an opening created in the neck to facilitate placing a tube into a person's windpipe—can be essential for allowing a critically ill patient to come off a ventilator. A new article, with an accompanying video, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/5XRM5b22:06
DocScrutinizer054 weeks limited lockdown. HAH! And after those 4 weeks, when we see it didn't achieve the goal of brinhing down incidences to <50 /k7d, then what? You gonna say >>well, sorry we tried it. didn't pan out so we stop it now and ...???<< or what?22:12
DocScrutinizer05or are you going to tell german people then >>last 4 weeks didn't help yet, so NOW we need you to stay at home, do homeoffice, don't leave home, don't go to school... At least until new year<<?22:15
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: (news): Dr. Anthony Fauci says U.S. is in a 'bad position' as daily coronavirus cases hit record highs → https://is.gd/gMjI5T22:15
de-factoI dont get why they let schools open, they should get out the maximum of this expensive lockdown, no false compromises or such22:15
DocScrutinizer05full ack22:16
de-factoits only going to wear out peoples compliance and prolong the unwanted side effects22:17
de-factoi would be for the most strict lockdown possible22:18
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: you seen my critics of "corona ampel"? It's frustratingly ridiculous to hear >>we shown we can manage it<<22:18
de-factothen IF that works it could be ended sooner and maybe we could control incidence then when significantly restricting mobility across iso-prevalence lines22:18
de-factoi am against traffic light systems, it only makes things intransparent for the public 22:19
de-factothere is no better indicator than daily new infections22:19
de-factoand to be honest if Streek states the opposite it disqualifies his competence in my opinion22:21
DocScrutinizer05this is not the way to manage a high inertia system. You need a PID algo, not a digital system with a threshold value of 60/k7d22:22
de-factothat guy is used to HIV epidemics, there i may make sense to look at clinical data, this here is MUCH more dynamic22:22
DocScrutinizer05Streek is a fool22:22
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Five Spanish regions close borders to fight virus: Five more Spanish regions, including Madrid, said Wednesday they would close their borders ahead of the All Saints' Day long weekend to try to halt a surge in coronavirus infections. → https://is.gd/78uzXY22:24
de-factoso 1) we dont know the impact of our containment measures in advance 2) they may show only after 2 weeks or such hence why not take the opposite approach: make a maximum hard lockdown and lift containment one every month until its clear incidence will be endemic in tracing?22:25
de-factocompartmentalization finally22:25
de-factocongratz Spain22:26
DocScrutinizer05they got a point though: we need a better plan for after lockdown managed to get us into a sane region again. We need a system that acts as soon as R_eff>1 to keep the numbers as low as possible all the time, NOT WAIT until it explodes into our face22:26
de-factoyes thats where Streek acutally is correct, we need to find a way to coexist with the virus for quite some time22:26
de-factoyes it was the biggest mistake to wait that long22:28
de-factonow we have to deal with a big incidence and that makes things very much harder than they could have been22:29
de-factosince nonlinear effects are at work more than exponentially harder than they could have been 22:30
de-factoso why not start today with the "lockdown"?22:30
de-factoit already means dealing with 35% more cases to wait until Monday, why would lockdowns started with the begin of the week work better? does not make any sense to me22:32
de-facto35% daily more new cases i mean22:33
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Masks and Covid-19: In the US, a patchwork of policies persist: As the United States' COVID-19 infection rate hits an all-time high, calls are growing for a nationwide mask mandate to replace the current patchwork of state regulations. → https://is.gd/MQqorF22:33
de-factowas there ever a lockdown bringing the curve down faster than it raised? no? well then every waiting time will prolong the lockdown by more than that waiting time to come back to same incidence22:34
DocScrutinizer05>>why would lockdowns started with the begin of the week work better?<< higher acceptance and compliance maybe. Give people a few days to prepare22:37
DocScrutinizer05but sheeesch, they could prepare for a much harder lockdown of only 3 weeks22:38
bin_bashnooooo de-facto 22:38
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: (news): Gilead's revenue rises 17% driven by sales of coronavirus treatment remdesivir → https://is.gd/d3PN0j22:42
DocScrutinizer05btw Streek seems a victim of inappropriate citation somewhat: I didn't hear him saying >>the lockdown is useless<<22:45
BrainstormUpdates for US: +12337 cases (now 9.1 million), +184 deaths (now 232919) since 2 hours ago — Canada: +62 cases (now 224889) since 2 hours ago22:52
DocScrutinizer05>>[Monday, 10 August 2020] [23:26:28 CEST] <DocScrutinizer>       8 wochen<< ("8 weeks", til lockdown) which would've been ~start of October and about the time they *ought* to have done it23:10
DocScrutinizer05of course it would have been smarter to act in August already, to keep R_eff<123:11
BrainstormUpdates for US: +8416 cases (now 9.1 million), +99 deaths (now 233018) since 36 minutes ago — Canada: +1063 cases (now 225952), +13 deaths (now 10045) since 32 minutes ago23:23
BrainstormUpdates for US: +928 cases (now 9.1 million), +8 deaths (now 233026) since 19 minutes ago23:38
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): COVID19: REGENERON'S COVID-19 OUTPATIENT TRIAL PROSPECTIVELY DEMONSTRATES THAT REGN-COV2 ANTIBODY COCKTAIL SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED VIRUS LEVELS AND NEED FOR FURTHER MEDICAL ATTENTION → https://is.gd/Bn0Any23:45
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: What defines an efficacious COVID-19 vaccine? A review of the challenges assessing the clinical efficacy of vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 (80 votes) | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30773-8/fulltext?utm_campaign=tlcoronavirus20&utm_content=143976734&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-27013292 | https://redd.it/jjllmj23:52

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