jacklsw | since so many did get covid | 00:00 |
---|---|---|
DocScrutinizer05 | Timvde: indeed, that's clickbait headline. Antibodies are just _one_ component of immune system, and it's well known they fade away quickly | 00:01 |
DocScrutinizer05 | tinwhiskers: ^^^ | 00:01 |
tinwhiskers | jacklsw: no | 00:08 |
tinwhiskers | well, every person who has immunity provides a small break in the link of available infectious candidates so I suppose it helps to some level but really isn't effective until we get much higher rates of recovery than where we are at *anywhere* yet. | 00:09 |
Timvde | DocScrutinizer05: wrong mention? :P | 00:09 |
tinwhiskers | There may be some small communities that have reached slightly effective rates, but the studies that have found these are pretty questionable so far. | 00:10 |
tinwhiskers | Although some prisons have reported rates of infection suitable to provide some herd immunity so I suppose I have to eat my words on that. | 00:11 |
tinwhiskers | The level for herd immunity is kind nebulous in humans anyway. Really it's the rate of recovered individuals required to reduce the R0 below 1 (such that the disease will decline to 0 given time) but R0 is pretty meaningless in human terms. We only have R_eff to go on since there is mask wearing, social distancing and other management having an impact. It *may* be that in some places with the current rates of infection and management | 00:17 |
DocScrutinizer05 | Timvde: yes, sorry | 00:17 |
tinwhiskers | the R_Eff is < 1 but then it's pretty hard to say whether it's herd immunity or management at play. | 00:17 |
tinwhiskers | In most places if you took away the management you'd go well above an R_eff of 1 again. | 00:18 |
DocScrutinizer05 | what tinwhiskers said: herd immunity means R_eff<1. No way we got this anywhere yet | 00:19 |
DocScrutinizer05 | actually R_0 < 1 | 00:20 |
tinwhiskers | well, there are lots of places with R_eff below 1, but that's due to management, not herd immunity, almost for sure (may be rare exceptions). | 00:20 |
tinwhiskers | right, R_0 | 00:20 |
blkshp | it's weird to think that a year ago i was in the minority to know what an r_0 was | 00:22 |
tinwhiskers | heh. | 00:22 |
blkshp | and that was only because of a film | 00:22 |
blkshp | the one with Dustin hoffman! | 00:23 |
blkshp | and the monkey | 00:23 |
blkshp | wait, that may be the wrong movie! | 00:23 |
tinwhiskers | oh. really... which one was that? | 00:23 |
blkshp | no wait, was i contagion | 00:23 |
ryouma | i think it was outbreak | 00:23 |
tinwhiskers | I only saw that after covid | 00:23 |
jacklsw | dustin hoffman's movie is outbreak | 00:23 |
ryouma | but idr r0 there | 00:23 |
blkshp | outbreak was the one i was thinking but i was thinking of the one where there was a pig and a bat | 00:24 |
blkshp | the chef did it | 00:24 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Some Covid Survivors Have Antibodies That Attack the Body, not Virus → https://is.gd/OkyIjQ | 00:24 |
jacklsw | pig and bat are in contagion | 00:24 |
blkshp | yes, im pretty sure i was thiknng of contagion | 00:24 |
blkshp | i remember her explaining it on a whiteboard | 00:24 |
blkshp | they got the vaccine to people over a year with birthdates as the random qualifier to access to it | 00:25 |
jacklsw | ya she is the r0, chef is the one started the spread | 00:25 |
blkshp | yeah its that one | 00:25 |
tinwhiskers | yes, I wonder how we'll decide who gets the vaccine first | 00:25 |
blkshp | money | 00:26 |
tinwhiskers | well, what various methods countries will use. | 00:26 |
tinwhiskers | that'll certainly be a factor :-) | 00:26 |
ryouma | they should go to e.g. hcw first | 00:26 |
tinwhiskers | hcw? | 00:26 |
ryouma | assuming they are normal and healthy i.e. their populations were tested | 00:26 |
blkshp | it's still so unreal | 00:26 |
ryouma | didn't see contaigion but it sound slike we had these movies preparing us, and that conference in (nyc?), but perhaps convincing us that the authorities, while having internal conflicts at most, were pretty much able to and willing to get the pandemic under control | 00:27 |
tinwhiskers | yeah, that was overly hopeful :-/ | 00:28 |
tinwhiskers | biggest plot flaw. government mostly sucks. | 00:28 |
ryouma | why didn't we know this? was the spanish flu similar? were mers and such similar? | 00:29 |
tinwhiskers | yeah. the same strategies apply to all. | 00:29 |
blkshp | i wonder what would it be like if this had happened just 20 years | 00:30 |
blkshp | ago | 00:30 |
ryouma | or even just 6 | 00:30 |
ryouma | in the us atg least | 00:30 |
blkshp | at tme moment 80% of people can do their job from home, internet shopping allows us to get what we need, 20 years ago that wouldn't have been the case | 00:30 |
tinwhiskers | I doubt it would have been much different tbh. it would take longer to get a vaccine, for sure, but the effective control strategies have not required any particular technology. | 00:30 |
tinwhiskers | ah, there is that | 00:30 |
tinwhiskers | we may be having slightly less economic harm thanks to technology | 00:31 |
ryouma | but we had fewer political issues | 00:31 |
tinwhiskers | did we? | 00:31 |
blkshp | but significant;y more human casualty because people would basically have to operate as normal | 00:31 |
ryouma | they were under the surface and might not have surfaced as much | 00:32 |
tinwhiskers | maybe | 00:32 |
jacklsw | news don't spread that fast 10-20 years ago | 00:32 |
jacklsw | internet wasn't that fast | 00:32 |
ryouma | extremism in the us was absolutely fringe until around the time freenode got these agitators spamming fringe youtube content | 00:32 |
tinwhiskers | sure it did. it just spread through newspapers | 00:32 |
blkshp | would it all have been kept a secret | 00:32 |
jacklsw | with better technology people move around the world more | 00:33 |
jacklsw | helped spreading the virus like wildfire | 00:33 |
tinwhiskers | people would telegraph/wire/fax/phone the news to the office and it woul dbe out that day. People looked to different places for news but it was still pretty quick for anything that mattered. | 00:33 |
Brainstorm | New from Scientific American: Election Science Stakes: Medicine and Public Health: Medical personnel get a person's sample at a drive-thru Coronavirus COVID-19 testing station, March 12, 2020, San Francisco. → https://is.gd/tpnDaI | 00:33 |
ryouma | i think politics is a bigger factor than anything else | 00:33 |
ryouma | speak of hte devil | 00:33 |
tinwhiskers | I think so too, but I don't think it was that much different 20 years ago | 00:34 |
ryouma | i have to avoid news, but i still think the feeling in the us changed rather abruptly much more recently than 20y ago | 00:35 |
tinwhiskers | I also don't think the smaller numbers of travellers would have made a huge difference just 20 years ago. It may have been less harmful to close borders so that may have happened more quickly, but there were still enough people moving around 20 years ago that the virus would have moved between regions. | 00:35 |
ryouma | i didn't realize there were more travelers | 00:36 |
tinwhiskers | I mean, it would probably help a bit, but wouldn't have prevented it getting where it has. | 00:36 |
tinwhiskers | when was the last time anyone here bought a paper newspaper? | 00:37 |
tinwhiskers | We used to get it every day | 00:37 |
tinwhiskers | (delivered daily) | 00:37 |
ryouma | on the island? | 00:38 |
tinwhiskers | That was probably about 30 years ago for rme. | 00:38 |
tinwhiskers | no... lol | 00:38 |
tinwhiskers | back in NZ when I was a youngun. | 00:38 |
ryouma | you could use ballistic tech to send over a parachute package | 00:38 |
jacklsw | newspaper provides news without an easy way to feedback | 00:38 |
jacklsw | so people would be like oh yeah this happens eh, then go back to own life | 00:39 |
ryouma | social media is television 2.0. it polarizes. i love lucy never did that. | 00:39 |
tinwhiskers | sure. but that doesn't make it slower ot necessarily worse. It was arguably better back then when there were standards. | 00:39 |
jacklsw | nowadays online media where people can feedback, they key in some emotional and maybe hateful words and spread it back | 00:40 |
ryouma | i am thinking social media rots brains just as fast as television but in a worse direction. dumb and hostile instead of just dumb. | 00:40 |
jacklsw | it has come to the point where faster internet doesn't benefit us | 00:40 |
tinwhiskers | right. that's what people are used to now, but news had (some) more ethics back in the day and was still spread very quickly. | 00:40 |
jacklsw | more memes, stupid videos | 00:40 |
jacklsw | all for sponsorship and money | 00:40 |
tinwhiskers | We've had TV news for over 50 years that most of the country would tune into. We're not *more* informed now. | 00:41 |
jacklsw | tik tok is the worst offender of stupid videos | 00:41 |
tinwhiskers | there's access to things like academic papers that would take a lot longer back then but important stuff would still make to TV or newspaper. | 00:41 |
ryouma | i think we are more informed. but you have to know where to look. and you have to know what to trust. | 00:41 |
ryouma | scandals can come to light | 00:42 |
ryouma | but at the same time is the enormous amount of bile | 00:42 |
jacklsw | faster internet convinced people to go anti-vaccine | 00:42 |
tinwhiskers | yeah | 00:42 |
tinwhiskers | kinda | 00:42 |
tinwhiskers | :-) | 00:42 |
tinwhiskers | social media did | 00:42 |
ryouma | and now it seems we have really sophisticated disinfo | 00:43 |
ryouma | on a larger scale | 00:43 |
tinwhiskers | yeah. sorry bloody state we're in now. | 00:43 |
jacklsw | well, better online shopping experience nowadays though | 00:44 |
tinwhiskers | there is that :-) | 00:44 |
jacklsw | just constrained by how courier companies cope with orders | 00:45 |
DocScrutinizer05 | there's a virus pandemia and a infodemia of fake news. The former spreads pretty fast, the latter spreads faster than light. Former causes some fatalities, latter causes many fatalities. On the bright side fighting the first will mitigate the second. Downside: the infodemia catalyzes the virus pandemia | 00:55 |
DocScrutinizer05 | and a 20 years ago we definitely wouldn't have seen an infodemia the way we do right now | 00:57 |
LjL | Anyone checked the last link Brainstorm posted about antiantibidies? Is it what we already knew, i.e. the immune system going crazy in severe cases, or something different and potentially more related to long covid? ryouma | 00:58 |
LjL | 14,99[00:19] 99,99 9,99Brainstorm:99,99 New99,99 from r/WorldNews:99,99 worldnews:99,99 Some Covid Survivors Have Antibodies That Attack the Body, not Virus → https://is.gd/OkyIjQ | 00:58 |
LjL | This one | 00:58 |
LjL | It's kinda paywalled depending on your luck | 00:58 |
jacklsw | who made the studies that antibody attacks the body | 00:59 |
DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: seems old news | 01:01 |
LjL | I don't know | 01:01 |
LjL | Is it? The specific fact of autoantibodies being produced isn't something I remember reading | 01:02 |
DocScrutinizer05 | old as in: seen with other infections and highly anticipated or even already reported for sars-cov2 | 01:02 |
DocScrutinizer05 | infections triggering autoimmune disorders is not really new | 01:03 |
DocScrutinizer05 | actually I think it's normal to see those autoimmune antibodies and the question is how many you find and if they vanish again | 01:05 |
ryouma | LjL: idk. i have access to it but not ability to read it atm. dunno if there are issues with statistics or if it is stuff we already know re viruses. i /think/ (at least some of) long covid is female-predominant which is suggestive of possible autoimmune issues but that is a small link to rely on. | 01:10 |
ryouma | interesting quotes though are e.g. "“It’s very possible that some of the coagulation issues that you see in Covid-19 patients are being driven by these kinds of immune complexes,” she said." | 01:10 |
LjL | That's a good ubLIX[m] quote | 01:11 |
ryouma | "If the autoantibodies do turn out to be long-lasting, she said, they may result in persistent, even lifelong, problems for Covid-19 survivors. “You never really cure lupus — they have flares, and they get better and they have flares again,” she said. “And that may have something to do with autoantibody memory.”" | 01:11 |
ryouma | why? | 01:11 |
LjL | ryouma: if long covid is female predominant while covid itself tends to be worse in males that seems kinda significant | 01:12 |
ryouma | maybe | 01:12 |
LjL | Just because he "specialized" a bit in the blood clotting aspect same as you focus on long covid | 01:12 |
ubLIX[m] | yes, i found the significance of clotting factors with respiratory viruses very interesting. i'm completely out of the loop now though, having ignored all covid news for at least a month. calming, but then i have no idea what's going on now. well i looked up the case numbers again and it looks like winter is going to be interesting, anyway | 01:17 |
DocScrutinizer05 | hmm... | 01:20 |
DocScrutinizer05 | "...the findings are not unexpected because other viral illnesses also trigger autoantibodies." | 01:20 |
DocScrutinizer05 | In other words, this virus is behaving like a virus. | 01:20 |
Brainstorm | Updates for France: +5442 cases (now 1.2 million) since 5 hours ago — US: +3597 cases (now 9.0 million), +54 deaths (now 232017) since an hour ago — Canada: +25 cases (now 222944), +14 deaths (now 10013) since 3 hours ago | 01:21 |
semighost | I had never even heard of autoantibodies before today | 01:26 |
semighost | I guess some are long lasting and others are not | 01:27 |
ryouma | autoimmune diseases are long lasting. idk whether this means the antibodies themselves are long lasting. | 01:29 |
ryouma | can be* | 01:29 |
ryouma | autoantibodies are afaik just antibodies to self-epitopes | 01:29 |
ryouma | fwiw there are suggestions of, known issues with, or hypotheses of, clotting issues in m.e. (but that one either did not pan out or, as is extremely common, was dropped on the floor for lack of research funding), vascular regulation issues in m.e., and autoimmunity in m.e. m.e. is thought to be female predominant. men possibly get it more severely. but keep in mind that m.e. might in principle be several diseases | 01:31 |
ryouma | , possibly some or all interconnected or related. anecdotally a bunch of autoimmune comorbidities seem to show up. it is common in autoimmunity tha tyou get more htan one. women seem to get hashimotos a lot but dunno if the base rate is high there to begin with so idk. i don't think autoimmunity is being looked at as a major root-cause hypothesis for m.e. these days however. it might be being considered as down | 01:31 |
ryouma | stream of whatever the root cause is such as metabolic (pwme have to rely on anaerobic metabolism), t-cell, etc. btw metabolically men and women who have m.e. differ a lot in screwed up biochem pathways according to maureen hanson work. so studies will have to include both sexes. traditionally studies have been on women. | 01:31 |
ryouma | (and also, to get to the root of it you need to go to the houses of those who have the disease, not just take a sample of those who are capable of traveling to your lab, who are therefore, by definition, not severe) | 01:34 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Low Covid-19 fatality rates in countries with poor hygiene, low-quality water: study → https://is.gd/S8qyAV | 01:35 |
ryouma | but of course keep in mind that female predominance is not just an autoimmune thing, just a possibly small indicator i think | 01:37 |
ryouma | huh hygiene hypothesis? | 01:38 |
DocScrutinizer05 | m.e.? | 01:40 |
DocScrutinizer05 | hard to google | 01:41 |
ryouma | igg antibody therapy for e.g. hypogammaglobulinemia is typically pretty frequent (like more frequent than once per month). so you do have to keep them topped up. high doses are used in autoimmune diseases, but there is a difference in why. | 01:41 |
DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, sounds a lot like hygiene hypothesis | 01:43 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Some Covid Survivors Have Antibodies That Attack the Body, not Virus → https://is.gd/NyX9e3 | 01:44 |
DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ seems pretty related, both headlines | 01:45 |
DocScrutinizer05 | overshooting immune response | 01:46 |
ryouma | They found autoantibodies that recognize DNA in nearly half of the patients. --- if his is anti ds dna then it refers to lupus --- They also found antibodies against a protein called rheumatoid factor and others that help with blood clotting. Among the top half of the most seriously ill patients, more than 70 percent had autoantibodies against one of the targets tested.... “It’s not just that these patients have | 02:00 |
ryouma | an autoimmune-like immune response,” he said. “It’s that those immune responses are coupled with actual true testable clinical auto-reactivities.” Some of the autoantibodies the researchers identified are associated with blood flow problems | 02:00 |
ryouma | “Anytime you have that combination of inflammation and cell death, there is the potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies, more importantly, to emerge,” | 02:01 |
ryouma | i am personally confused by the statistics of autoantibody testing | 02:04 |
LjL | ryouma: "among the top half of the most seriously ill patients, more than 70%" seems written to be confusing | 02:32 |
LjL | Or to inflate a small number. It's still scary, you know I don't brush things off.. but that phrasing is all sorts of weird | 02:32 |
ryouma | LjL: both articles probably come from the same news source maybe? and then edited. so perhaps they said precisely what most seriously ill meant and then dropped it. | 02:41 |
ryouma | but yeah | 02:41 |
LjL | i thought the MSN article was just the NYT article | 02:42 |
ryouma | it sure sounds like a large effect size but might be tiny who knows | 02:42 |
ryouma | "up to 60% smoother skin or more!" | 02:42 |
ryouma | i didn't read the paper and my brain isn't working, just copying some stuff that looked interesting for those who don't have access | 02:44 |
ryouma | i would like to know more about the vascular stuff just to learn | 02:49 |
metreo1 | in the lungs? | 03:02 |
metreo1 | all infections are indicated by overeager autoimmune responses no? | 03:06 |
metreo1 | that's what I thought the redness and swelling around a cut or whatever it | 03:07 |
metreo1 | is* | 03:07 |
tinwhiskers | that's not necessarily "overeager". | 03:08 |
metreo1 | sure but ones own body is creating the infection | 03:08 |
tinwhiskers | no | 03:08 |
metreo1 | or the classic symptoms of one like redness, swelling and pus formation | 03:09 |
tinwhiskers | the infection is caused by the spread of bacteria/viruses. Inflammation is a result of fighting that infection off. | 03:09 |
tinwhiskers | there is a proliferation of white blood cells and a lot of cell death with resulting toxins and detritus. | 03:10 |
tinwhiskers | the body doesn't "create the infection" | 03:10 |
tinwhiskers | fighting off an infection is a messy business | 03:10 |
tinwhiskers | the conditions necessary to kill of a bacterial infection is also pretty harmful to healthy cells but a necessary evil. | 03:11 |
metreo1 | but the virus is in some cases producing an autoimmune disorder | 03:12 |
metreo1 | there is no evidence that people with pre-existing autoimmunity disorders are differently affected by covid-19 | 03:14 |
tinwhiskers | yes | 03:16 |
tinwhiskers | but with cuts, etc. the redness and inflammation is a symptom of the infection (a symptom of the body fighting it off), not the infection itself. The body doesn't produce the infection. | 03:17 |
tinwhiskers | but yes, inflammation is an indicator of infection. | 03:17 |
tinwhiskers | as for "there is no evidence that people with pre-existing autoimmunity disorders are differently affected by covid-19" I don't know that is true. | 03:18 |
tinwhiskers | I expect some people with certain autoimmune conditions very much have worse outcomes in general. | 03:19 |
metreo1 | apparently it hasn't been proven | 03:21 |
metreo1 | but that covid creates such a deficiency is pretty unique | 03:21 |
metreo1 | an autoimmune deficiency* | 03:21 |
tinwhiskers | no, it's common to many viral infections | 03:21 |
tinwhiskers | there's no indication covid is worse in that regard | 03:22 |
metreo1 | a full on autoimmune disorder from which other virus? | 03:22 |
tinwhiskers | many | 03:22 |
metreo1 | lupus maybe | 03:22 |
tinwhiskers | there was a discussion about that earlier on. | 03:22 |
metreo1 | oh well no need to repeat it for me :) | 03:22 |
tinwhiskers | I don't know which viruses myself, but it's apparently pretty common across a range of viruses. | 03:23 |
tinwhiskers | I'll check the scrollback... | 03:23 |
metreo1 | lupus is not a virus? | 03:23 |
ryouma | i'd like to know if covid is more than other viruses or about hte same and what other viruses do that and what autoimmune diseases are caused and for how long. was this discussion before i joined? | 03:23 |
metreo1 | well as I know this is not at all common | 03:23 |
metreo1 | ryouma, yes | 03:24 |
ryouma | all i know is 18:01 <ryouma> “Anytime you have that combination of inflammation and cell death, there is the potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies, more importantly, to emerge,” -- which is disturbing to me as i hav ea lot of inflammation and also staph aureus | 03:24 |
tinwhiskers | no, lupus is not a virus. It's a condition. | 03:24 |
ryouma | who said it was a virus? | 03:24 |
tinwhiskers | I was just answering metreo1 | 03:24 |
metreo1 | which other virus creates an autoimmune disorder? | 03:25 |
ryouma | (i also hafve anti-ds-dna) | 03:25 |
tinwhiskers | Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) and measles virus. Type 1 diabetes: coxsackievirus B4, cytomegalovirus (CMV), mumps virus, and rubella virus. Rheumatoid arthritis: EBV, hepatitis C virus, Escherichia coli bacteria | 03:25 |
tinwhiskers | the first hit on google summary stopped there. look it up if you want a more comprehensive list. | 03:25 |
metreo1 | wow so covid is in a group with mumps and hep-C ... | 03:26 |
tinwhiskers | no... | 03:26 |
tinwhiskers | they just share the trait that they can trigger an autoimmune condition | 03:26 |
metreo1 | that is the gist of the breaking news | 03:27 |
tinwhiskers | well, that's an incorrect interpretation to make imo | 03:27 |
metreo1 | like this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_autoimmune_diseases might include covid | 03:27 |
metreo1 | https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/health/covid-antibodies-autoimmunity.html | 03:28 |
tinwhiskers | right... amongst *many* viruses, covid can *also* trigger an autoimmune condition. | 03:28 |
metreo1 | but not like lupus or arthritis... | 03:28 |
tinwhiskers | ahhh | 03:28 |
tinwhiskers | no | 03:28 |
tinwhiskers | what? | 03:28 |
tinwhiskers | no | 03:28 |
metreo1 | I'm talking about it like people who have an autoimmune disorder, unrelated to an infection | 03:29 |
metreo1 | covid is apparently causing this | 03:29 |
metreo1 | which explains the chronic symptoms | 03:29 |
metreo1 | and is very unique among viruses | 03:29 |
tinwhiskers | yes, it can cause an autoimmune condition | 03:29 |
tinwhiskers | no... *many* viruses can cause that | 03:29 |
metreo1 | which ones lol | 03:30 |
tinwhiskers | ffs. I just gave you a list | 03:30 |
metreo1 | where the virus is gone but the autoimmunity disorder lingers? | 03:30 |
tinwhiskers | right | 03:30 |
metreo1 | I don't think so | 03:30 |
tinwhiskers | *sigh* | 03:30 |
metreo1 | hep-C is with you for life | 03:30 |
metreo1 | with covid you test free of the virus but you have a lasting autoimmune disorder attacking your body | 03:31 |
ryouma | no part of long covid that i know of is known to be caused by autoimmunity. except those who /get/ /known/ autoimmune diseases. | 03:31 |
tinwhiskers | right, as with many other viruses listed | 03:31 |
metreo1 | which ones I can't see them | 03:31 |
metreo1 | I mean I'm relaying expert opinion about that | 03:32 |
tinwhiskers | no. You're misinterpreting expert information. | 03:32 |
metreo1 | ryouma, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/health/covid-antibodies-autoimmunity.html | 03:32 |
metreo1 | tinwhiskers, I'm sharing it verbatium | 03:32 |
metreo1 | covid is very unique in this respect | 03:33 |
tinwhiskers | google hit 1: https://www.everydayhealth.com/autoimmune-disorders/understanding/are-autoimmune-diseases-caused-by-infections.aspx | 03:33 |
tinwhiskers | covid is *not* unique in this respect | 03:33 |
DocScrutinizer05 | "...the findings are not unexpected because other viral illnesses also trigger autoantibodies." | 03:33 |
DocScrutinizer05 | In other words, this virus is behaving like a virus. | 03:33 |
tinwhiskers | yeah, that was what I saw earlier. Thank you :-) | 03:33 |
ryouma | DocScrutinizer05: possibly more so, possibly the same so, for all we know by skimming and speculating | 03:34 |
ryouma | it is premature, and quite possibly wrong given what m.e. researchers think, to conclude that the non-tissue-damage part of olong covid is autoimmune | 03:34 |
tinwhiskers | what we call "long covid" may not be autoimmune but covid can trigger *other* autoimmune conditions like many other viruses. | 03:35 |
metreo1 | tinwhiskers, the article you shared merely speculates about lasting damage | 03:35 |
ryouma | right | 03:35 |
tinwhiskers | "long covid" is an umbrealla term for a lot of conditions | 03:35 |
ryouma | right | 03:36 |
tinwhiskers | the thing is this triggering of auto immune conditions is neither well understood not particularly common but it known to occur, and now it is also known to occur with covid. | 03:37 |
tinwhiskers | *nor particularly common | 03:37 |
metreo1 | tinwhiskers, from the link: "It is important to note that while the evidence is certainly mounting, researchers don't yet know for certain that previous infections increase the risk of developing autoimmune. " | 03:37 |
ryouma | it occurs with vaccines too | 03:37 |
ryouma | (can occur) | 03:38 |
ryouma | we can't just say viruses cause autoimmune a lot so non-tissue-damage long covid must e autoimmune | 03:39 |
metreo1 | ryouma, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/27/health/covid-antibodies-autoimmunity.html | 03:40 |
ryouma | we can say however that if a lot of sle and ra seem to be triggered by covid then they are probably triggered by it | 03:40 |
tinwhiskers | metreo1: the very article you claim shows it's unique to covid also says, "the findings are not unexpected because other viral illnesses also trigger autoantibodies", so you can't take one position as "fact" from that article without the other. | 03:40 |
tinwhiskers | as DocScrutinizer05 already pointed out | 03:41 |
ryouma | well, not really but we can form a good hypothesis at least | 03:41 |
metreo1 | tinwhiskers, it has been long speculated but never proven | 03:42 |
metreo1 | next sentence: | 03:42 |
tinwhiskers | and indeed you can say the same about this new finding | 03:42 |
metreo1 | “I’m not surprised, but it’s interesting to see _that it’s really happening,_” said Akiko Iwasaki, an immunologist at Yale University. “It’s possible that even moderate to mild disease may induce this kind of antibody response.” | 03:42 |
metreo1 | "it’s interesting to see that it’s really happening," | 03:43 |
metreo1 | It’s possible | 03:43 |
metreo1 | that even moderate to mild disease may induce this kind of antibody response | 03:43 |
tinwhiskers | right, albeit rarely | 03:43 |
metreo1 | “It’s not just that these patients have an autoimmune-like immune response,” he said. “It’s that those immune responses are coupled with actual true testable clinical auto-reactivities.” | 03:43 |
tinwhiskers | “Anytime you have that combination of inflammation and cell death, there is the potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies, more importantly, to emerge,” said Marion Pepper, an immunologist at the University of Washington in Seattle. | 03:44 |
metreo1 | Yes like in arthritis or lupus lol | 03:45 |
metreo1 | says nothing about virus | 03:45 |
tinwhiskers | o.O | 03:45 |
metreo1 | The sentence literally before that one was talking about lupus | 03:46 |
metreo1 | In the typical response to a virus, cells known as B immune cells make antibodies that recognize pieces of viral RNA from the virus and lock onto them.But in conditions like lupus, some B cells never learn to do this and instead produce autoantibodies that glom onto DNA debris from dead human cells, mistaking them for intruders. Something similar may be happening in patients with Covid-19, the research suggests.“Anytime you h | 03:46 |
metreo1 | ave that combination of inflammation and cell death, there is the potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies, more importantly, to emerge,” said Marion Pepper, an immunologist at the University of Washington in Seattle. | 03:46 |
ryouma | what is being discussed and does it need to be? | 03:46 |
metreo1 | Covid turns out to be a very unique virus | 03:47 |
tinwhiskers | jesus | 03:47 |
tinwhiskers | no, it doesn't | 03:47 |
metreo1 | why are there no viruses on this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_autoimmune_diseases | 03:48 |
tinwhiskers | those are the conditions, not the viruses that trigger them? | 03:48 |
tinwhiskers | Chikungunya virus can cause arthritus - https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2020/10/20/2008051117 | 03:48 |
metreo1 | that link has never been proven | 03:48 |
LjL | metreo1, are you being daft on purpose? "18<29metreo118> Yes like in arthritis or lupus lol <29metreo118> says nothing about virus" it had just being established (and there's nothing controversial in this, source: me) that viral infections result in "inflammation and cell death", for various reasons. if inflammation and cell deaths have "the potential for autoimmune disease and autoantibodies to emerge", then it follows that SINCE a virus can | 03:49 |
LjL | cause the inflammation and cell death, autoimmune disease and autoantibodies can emerge | 03:49 |
LjL | *whew* | 03:49 |
LjL | and good thing i had decided to take the day "off" | 03:49 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Asia will be 'resilient' in a coronavirus second wave. Here's how to invest, says Credit Suisse: As parts of the world brace for a second wave of Covid-19 infections, the economic impact on Asia will likely be "limited" as the region remains resilient, according to a Credit Suisse strategist. → https://is.gd/8lWgne | 03:50 |
ryouma | logical | 03:50 |
tinwhiskers | https://www.jimmunol.org/content/184/10/5914?ijkey=e225df40a97092238b435117e401c24ac51edecd&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha | 03:51 |
tinwhiskers | ^ Persistent Chronic Inflammation and Infection by Chikungunya Arthritogenic Alphavirus in Spite of a Robust Host Immune Response | 03:51 |
tinwhiskers | There's plenty of papers that provide a pretty good case that covid is not unqiue in this regard | 03:51 |
metreo1 | introduces "post-CHIKV RA-like arthritis" | 03:52 |
metreo1 | RA-like not RA its self | 03:52 |
tinwhiskers | smh | 03:52 |
metreo1 | Arthritis is a term often used to mean any disorder that affects joints | 03:52 |
tinwhiskers | You go on believing whatever you like in spite of evidence to the contrary then. | 03:52 |
ryouma | what is chikungunya virus | 03:53 |
metreo1 | Look it says you have a persistent infection "It is plausible that CHIKV persisting in immunoprivileged niches (called here sanctuaries) contributes directly to synovial tissue damage." | 03:53 |
metreo1 | ryouma, a virus which may or may not cause lasting autoimmue disorders | 03:54 |
ryouma | yeah, i kinda picked that up from here just now... | 03:54 |
metreo1 | "CHIKV may trigger persistent joint pain and arthritis-like pathology with mechanisms possibly involving not only host-derived inflammatory cytokines but also the virus itself hijacking the “soldier” of the innate immune system," looks like it's not proven | 03:55 |
LjL | you know what else is not proven with 100% certainty? | 03:55 |
LjL | just about everything in medicine | 03:55 |
metreo1 | or some combination of the two like with hep-C where you have the virus in you but liver scarring becomes another problem as well | 03:56 |
LjL | it's not proven with that amount of certainty about COVID, either, despite what the article that stated all this may claim | 03:56 |
metreo1 | well this NYT article is supposedly a pretty big breakthrough | 03:56 |
tinwhiskers | the very article you claim as some sort of gold standard contradicts you saying that it is not unexpected. | 03:56 |
ryouma | this is exhausting and annoying | 03:56 |
LjL | you are using double standards metreo1 | 03:56 |
tinwhiskers | it's evidence that this virus *also* does the same as other viruses, which is good to know. | 03:56 |
LjL | it is becoming quite annoying | 03:57 |
metreo1 | it's been expected but no single virus has been proven to do it is what I'm saying and the wording of the article supports that | 03:57 |
LjL | you are picking and choosing what counts as certain and what doesn't | 03:57 |
LjL | it is a goddamn NYT article | 03:57 |
LjL | it is not a peer-reviewed paper | 03:57 |
LjL | you're making a mountain out of a molehill here | 03:57 |
metreo1 | written about peer-reviewed science | 03:57 |
tinwhiskers | yes, well, I think I'll move on now :-/ | 03:58 |
LjL | i think everybody will move on | 03:58 |
metreo1 | well all I'm saying is that it's very rare for a virus to cause autoimmune disorders and if the early indications are true than covid is very unique if not a first | 03:58 |
LjL | well what you are saying is wrong | 03:58 |
metreo1 | says nobody | 03:59 |
tinwhiskers | it is rare, yes. | 03:59 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Indian outfit wins UN award for efforts to combat climate change amid COVID-19 → https://is.gd/9HG53l | 03:59 |
LjL | if there are many not certain, but likely indications that a BUNCH of viruses cause autoimmune disorders, just because it's not "proven" to your very stringent standards doesn't allow you to say "it's very rare for a virus to cause autoimmune disorders", because THAT is also a statement backed by NO science | 03:59 |
LjL | metreo1, you are the nobody who says nothing now for a while | 03:59 |
LjL | sheesh | 03:59 |
LjL | huge loss | 04:01 |
LjL | about 12 minutes ago i jumped into a discussion and asked someone whether he's being daft on purpose. that's usually a good indication that if they continue acting the same way, eventually i'll type one of the shut the hell up commands. just saying in case what happened is unclear to anybody | 04:03 |
questshuneveryth | SLO KILL | 04:13 |
DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: overdue :-( | 04:17 |
DocScrutinizer05 | sorry :-) | 04:17 |
ryouma | ah mosquito | 04:22 |
ryouma | chikungunya | 04:22 |
tinwhiskers | yeah, a lot of people end up with chronic fatigue syndrome from it | 04:25 |
tinwhiskers | there's some murmouring about parksinson's and other things being triggered by it too. Perhaps not *proven* but it's well known that you can end up with life-long problems if you get that. | 04:26 |
tinwhiskers | or, earlier onset parkinson's anyway | 04:26 |
LjL | questshuneveryth, excuse me? | 04:27 |
tinwhiskers | lol | 04:27 |
tinwhiskers | oh. that's a person. ok | 04:27 |
ryouma | indian ocean? | 04:37 |
LjL | what? O.o | 04:37 |
ryouma | chikungunya outbreak. although i had heard the name, i didn't iknow anything about it or forgot it. and the fact that it is mosquito borne is interesting. | 04:40 |
LjL | oh | 04:40 |
ryouma | ooc, where did you get this from? --- 20:25 <tinwhiskers> yeah, a lot of people end up with chronic fatigue syndrome from it | 04:41 |
tinwhiskers | it's well known here in the pacific islands | 04:41 |
ryouma | ah | 04:42 |
tinwhiskers | plus I heard a radio show about it :-) | 04:42 |
ryouma | npr or so/ | 04:42 |
ryouma | ? | 04:42 |
ryouma | which are... forgive my geography... somewhat south of indian ocean? | 04:42 |
tinwhiskers | our "Radio NZ" is state funded, much like BBC and has some excellent science programmes at times. | 04:43 |
ryouma | btw, what island group is closest to tonga? is it more than 14d sail distance? | 04:43 |
tinwhiskers | east of australia | 04:43 |
ryouma | is the long term sequelae well known in the islands? | 04:43 |
tinwhiskers | Fiji is probably the closest | 04:43 |
tinwhiskers | Samoa and Niue otherwise | 04:43 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Fitness: ‘From 40 to 4 push ups’: A look at Tamannaah Bhatia’s first workout post-COVID recovery → https://is.gd/IdpvKv | 04:44 |
tinwhiskers | I've not heard of "long term sequelae". | 04:44 |
tinwhiskers | You can sail to Fiji in about 5 days | 04:44 |
ryouma | long term symptoms after recovering from the initial virus | 04:44 |
ryouma | seemingly* | 04:44 |
ryouma | ok | 04:44 |
LjL | "Following a local epidemic of chikungunya in Italy, 66% of people reported muscle pains, joint pains, or asthenia at one year after acute infection.[24]" ← this is why i shouldn't read about things -.- | 04:45 |
ryouma | so your ports are not safe all by themselves | 04:45 |
ryouma | :/ | 04:45 |
tinwhiskers | we've had three people sail in now without permission. | 04:45 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: COVID-19 associated arterial ischaemic stroke and multisystem inflammatory syndrome in children: a case report (88 votes) | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(20)30314-X/fulltext | https://redd.it/jjda1x | 04:45 |
tinwhiskers | They were all spotted by locals and reported, not by the "Navy" patrol. | 04:45 |
ryouma | so there's really no place that is infrequently visited or patrolled that you can moor off of and get to shore for a bit? | 04:46 |
questshuneveryth | ROB ZOMBIE KINGDOM CUMIN | 04:46 |
tinwhiskers | you could get onto one of the little unpopulated islands, I'm sure, but I doubt you would make the mainland for supplies or anything like that. | 04:47 |
LjL-Matrix | questshuneverything: do you intend to contribute anything but nonsense? | 04:47 |
ryouma | the little islands then would need to support you in gettin gto the main island i guess | 04:47 |
tinwhiskers | all the sailors and fishermen recognise unknown sailing vessels as such. | 04:47 |
ryouma | interesting | 04:47 |
tinwhiskers | boat people are crazy about details :-/ | 04:48 |
tinwhiskers | there's really not that many yachts here that it's hard to keep track of if you're into that stuff. | 04:48 |
ryouma | makes sense | 04:49 |
ryouma | i read your blog btw | 04:49 |
tinwhiskers | oh. nice :-) | 04:49 |
tinwhiskers | I'm sorry for you. | 04:49 |
ryouma | it was interesting | 04:50 |
tinwhiskers | heh. thanks | 04:50 |
LjL | burned down toilets! | 04:52 |
tinwhiskers | :-( | 04:52 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: US hospitals are reeling under a 45% spike in COVID-19 patients → https://is.gd/qJXDFn | 05:02 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Decline in mortality among hospitalised covid-19 patients in Sweden: a nationwide observational study (80 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.27.20220061v1 | https://redd.it/jj6w4t | 05:05 |
ryouma | one thing i do not understand is why emergency rooms have chairs and not places to lie down | 05:10 |
tinwhiskers | ryouma: agreed | 05:18 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Sarson ka saag is your go-to immunity dish this winter; here’s why → https://is.gd/Hkqf6q | 05:32 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +13571 cases (now 347289), +139 deaths (now 11038) since 21 hours ago — France: +8354 cases (now 1.2 million) since 4 hours ago — US: +3668 cases (now 9.0 million), +67 deaths (now 232084) since 4 hours ago — Canada: +669 cases (now 223613), +7 deaths (now 10020) since 4 hours ago | 06:07 |
Brainstorm | Updates for France: +8648 cases (now 1.2 million), +19 deaths (now 35560) since 17 minutes ago — Lombardy, Italy: +5035 cases (now 162968), +58 deaths (now 17310) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +2580 cases (now 315020), +17 deaths (now 7173) since 17 minutes ago — United Kingdom: +1544 cases (now 919119) since 12 hours ago | 06:22 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: ‘We’re in Hell’: Russia’s Second Wave of Covid-19 Is Catching the Regions Off Guard → https://is.gd/gjIv9N | 06:52 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: U.K. and France Report Most Deaths Since First Covid-19 Wave → https://is.gd/pJv7ox | 07:10 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Covid2019: Some Covid Survivors Have Antibodies That Attack the Body, not Virus New research found ‘autoantibodies’ similar to those in lupus and rheumatoid arthritis patients. But patients may also benefit from treatments for those autoimmune diseases. → https://is.gd/9XtWCE | 07:37 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: China: An unpopular winner in the year of the coronavirus → https://is.gd/p3IDIf | 07:55 |
cloud69 | %help | 08:35 |
Brainstorm | cloud69: Hi, I am LjL's bot! Say %modules or %commands to me in private to see my features. | 08:35 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: White House Declares Pandemic Over As It Cites Renowned Scientist Ivanka Trump → https://is.gd/QD5P8I | 08:40 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Experts outline key challenges for assessing clinical efficacy of COVID-19 vaccines: Collaboration and standardised approaches for assessing different vaccine efficacy endpoints are key for meaningful comparison of different COVID-19 vaccine candidates to ensure that the most effective vaccines are deployed, say authors of an [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/sT8JBZ | 08:58 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_ITALIA: Il vaccino anti-Covid c'è già: ecco chi lo sta usando → https://is.gd/LegKwA | 09:16 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Governor bans indoor dining in Chicago as virus cases surge: Surging COVID-19 cases in Chicago prompted Gov. J.B. Pritzker on Tuesday to ban indoor dining and bar services and limit the number of people gathering in one place. → https://is.gd/aa7cE8 | 09:25 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Global COVID Cases For 28OCT20: Summary As Of: 28OCT20 @ 08:23 GMT Countries 215 + 2 Cases 44,285,074 Deaths 1,172,136 Recovered 32,467,181 Active Cases 10,645,757 w/Active cases w/No Active cases w/All cases rcvrd Cntry’s 207 2 6 Cases 44,285,074 84 109 Deaths 1,172,136 2 0 Rcvrd 32,467,181 82 109 Daily totals of new: cases, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/PpW5BB | 09:43 |
Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: There’s no place like home for older and high-risk people to get Covid-19 vaccines: We believe that the home should be a focal point in the effort to eradicate Covid-19. Bringing vaccines to the home also gives providers another opportunity to visualize the management… → https://is.gd/bRKlXx | 09:52 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Researchers find confusion over masks for wildfire, COVID-19 crises: To mask or not to mask—and which mask to use? With public health guidance about masks in the United States confused by political hedging, clarity around mask use is increasingly important, especially as the western U.S. battles the twin crises of wildfire [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/dpFajO | 10:46 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +1140 cases (now 9.0 million), +17 deaths (now 232101) since 5 hours ago | 10:53 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Divided Belgium turns into Europe's worst virus hot spot: Small, yet so divided, Belgium has been hit hard again by the pandemic, and now presents some of the most worrying statistics in a continent reeling under the virus' resurgence. → https://is.gd/tqfJXd | 10:55 |
Brainstorm | New from PubMed: Northern Territory COVID-19 Response Group: Successful containment to date of SARS-CoV-2 transmission in the Northern Territory → https://is.gd/HXqTbX | 11:22 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: China virus epicenter Hubei lags as regional growth picks up → https://is.gd/dsoRvA | 11:31 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: France and Germany prepare for lockdown as cases surge in the two countries → https://is.gd/sIc5jY | 11:49 |
Brainstorm | New from The Atlantic: This Is the Coronavirus Election: Editor’s Note: The Atlantic is making vital coverage of the coronavirus available to all readers. Find the collection here . The president’s response to the pandemic should not have been a surprise. In December 2016, a month before Donald Trump was inaugurated, I asked how a pandemic would [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/9mBVWP | 12:07 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_ITALIA: Ladispoli, positiva organizzò doppia festa di compleanno al figlioletto: la madre si contagia e muore → https://is.gd/dWC1VQ | 12:16 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: For the first time since the Pandemic Began, The U.S has reported over 500,000 cases in one week. (10008 votes) | https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1321283046625169411 | https://redd.it/jjfxfc | 12:19 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Boeing earnings are out — here are the numbers: Boeing is set to report another rough quarter as it faces weak jetliner demand, the continued grounding of its 737 Max and the coronavirus pandemic → https://is.gd/NqOTk9 | 12:34 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +8616 cases (now 135658), +7 deaths (now 2154) since 21 hours ago | 12:39 |
Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: Sidelining GPs in pandemic response was “a disaster,” says global health leader: The sidelining of general practices in the UK’s response to the covid-19 is a “disaster” and “a national shame,” a leading global health expert has said.Anthony Costello, professor of global health... → https://is.gd/FyvOMQ | 12:43 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: 5 things to know before the stock market opens on Wednesday: U.S. stock futures were down sharply as traders fear the rising number of coronavirus cases could hurt the economic recovery. → https://is.gd/s0R2Ie | 13:19 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: South Koreans offer world lessons on how to tame coronavirus → https://is.gd/sobwcS | 13:38 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: EU chief calls for common tests, tracing as virus surges: As European Union countries weigh tougher coronavirus restrictions, including possible new lockdowns, a top EU official on Wednesday urged the 27 member states to introduce common rules to test for the disease and track its spread to help prevent further damage to their economies. → https://is.gd/H6trDa | 13:47 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Potential COVID-19 diagnosis with a non-invasive breath test that provides almost instant results: Initial findings from a new study led by Loughborough University—published by The Lancet—has shown how COVID-19 can be detected via a non-invasive breath test, providing almost instant results. → https://is.gd/nB5GMf | 13:55 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): U.S. agrees to pay Eli Lilly $375 million for 300,000 doses of coronavirus antibody drug → https://is.gd/JBOSJt | 14:04 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +2 deaths (now 2156) since an hour ago | 14:10 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Does the COVID-19 pandemic impact parents' and adolescents' well-being?: The COVID-19 pandemic and associated measures during the first lockdown in the Netherlands in March 2020 caused major changes in daily life. Parents worked from home and children followed school online. Therefore, the families were forced to spend more [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/RomYDi | 14:13 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Q&A: Technostress is one pandemic stressor nurses might be overlooking: Nurses have a lot on their minds right now, whether caring for patients with COVID-19, tracking down personal protective equipment, or worrying about their families' safety or their children's education. → https://is.gd/G5AqLz | 14:22 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Q&A: Despite COVID-19 risks, older people experience higher emotional well-being than younger adults: Despite being most at risk of contracting COVID-19 and suffering health complications due to the virus, older adults reported feeling calm more often than younger people, and were less likely to report negative emotions like [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/M0xEOI | 14:31 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 awareness and understanding among the public has increased, while skepticism declined, researchers report: When sweeping lockdowns changed nearly every aspect of daily life in March, the world sat up and took notice of the novel coronavirus. Since then, terms such as social distancing, aerosols, asymptomatic, and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/seNY8j | 14:40 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Study reveals mouth as primary source of COVID-19 infection, spread: A first-of-its-kind study shows the mouth is a robust site for infection and transmission of COVID-19, according to new research published Oct. 27 on the preprint server medRxiv. → https://is.gd/yhLZOd | 14:50 |
IndoAnon | Remember, it's not "recovered". It's temporarily healthy | 14:57 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Calculating possible fallout of Trump's face mask remarks: As COVID-19 deaths in the nation top 225,000, President Trump continues to downplay the severity of the pandemic, belittle government infectious disease experts such as Anthony Fauci, and display a cavalier attitude at times toward key public health measures like [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/EhYGZh | 14:58 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: How care pathways contribute to improving oncological care: Care pathways for cancer patients play an important role in improving the quality of care and the outcomes of this care. This is the conclusion of Jolanda van Hoeve in her doctoral thesis that she will defend at the University of Twente on 29 October. However, the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/RALYRJ | 15:07 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +3374 cases (now 9.0 million), +42 deaths (now 232143) since 4 hours ago — Switzerland: +2 deaths (now 2158) since an hour ago | 15:20 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Reducing the cost of coronavirus testing would likely result in higher willingness to be tested: Where and how long can schools remain open in times of the coronavirus pandemic? How safe are public transport means? Which rules must be observed when organizing events? To answer these questions, systematic tests for coronavirus [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/8RpULg | 15:26 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: The flu, a cold, allergies or COVID-19? How to decipher symptoms: Let's say you have a runny nose, headache and cough. Are they signs of COVID-19 or just a run-of-the-mill common cold? → https://is.gd/QkWZp6 | 15:35 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +425 cases (now 9.0 million), +4 deaths (now 232147) since 17 minutes ago | 15:35 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Achieving COVID-19 herd immunity through infection is dangerous, deadly and might not even work: White House advisers have made the case recently for a "natural" approach to herd immunity as a way to reduce the need for public health measures to control the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic while still keeping people safe. This idea is [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/zbQps6 | 15:44 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Over 500,000 virus cases worldwide in new daily record: More than 500,000 new coronavirus cases were reported worldwide on Tuesday in a new record, according to a tally from health authorities compiled by AFP. → https://is.gd/prXtIs | 15:53 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Covid cases, hospitalizations continue to surge as U.S. reaches 'critical point' in pandemic: Adm. Brett Giroir acknowledged that increased testing alone cannot explain the surge in cases, even as President Donald Trump attributes the surge to testing alone and continues to downplay the outbreak. → https://is.gd/LK0n9V | 16:02 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): COVID19: Lilly announces agreement with U.S. government to supply 300,000 vials of investigational neutralizing antibody bamlanivimab (LY-CoV555) in an effort to fight COVID-19 → https://is.gd/3jTrsr | 16:11 |
Brainstorm | New from In The Pipeline: Click Chemotherapy: So here’s an ambitious idea that’s about to get a hearing in human clinical trials. A startup called Shasqi is using click chemistry as a drug delivery method, and they have a new manuscript on the idea here at ChemRxiv. The idea is this: you produce a modified version of a hyaluronate biopolymer, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Yo0wxG | 16:20 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +8766 cases (now 9.1 million), +125 deaths (now 232272) since 50 minutes ago | 16:20 |
Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: NIH SARS-CoV-2 Antiviral Therapeutics Summit, Nov. 6th. Virtual, free to attend, no registration required. → https://is.gd/Hp6oUz | 16:29 |
Jigsy | %cases UK | 16:34 |
Brainstorm | Jigsy: In United Kingdom, there have been 917575 confirmed cases (1.4% of the population) and 45712 deaths (5.0% of cases) as of 10 hours ago. 32.4 million tests were performed (2.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data. | 16:34 |
metreo | .cases canada | 16:43 |
Brainstorm | metreo: In Canada, there have been 224650 confirmed cases (0.6% of the population) and 10023 deaths (4.5% of cases) as of 10 minutes ago. 9.7 million tests were performed (2.3% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.1% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 5.1% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Canada for time series data. | 16:43 |
Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: More must be done to protect ethnic minority communities in the second wave, review says: The government has not done enough to protect the UK’s black, Asian, and minority ethnic (BAME) communities ahead of the second wave of covid-19, a review by Doreen Lawrence has warned.In a review1... → https://is.gd/xQ9V2o | 17:06 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Lilly announces agreement with U.S. government to supply 300,000 vials of investigational neutralizing antibody bamlanivimab (LY-CoV555) in an effort to fight COVID-19 (80 votes) | https://investor.lilly.com/news-releases/news-release-details/lilly-announces-agreement-us-government-supply-300000-vials | https://redd.it/jjp8wz | 17:14 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Wednesday 28 October Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/vK5vou | 17:15 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +24988 cases (now 589766), +205 deaths (now 37905) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +23156 cases (now 942275) since 11 hours ago — Netherlands: +4971 cases (now 319991), +37 deaths (now 7202) since 11 hours ago — US: +2820 cases (now 9.1 million), +45 deaths (now 232317) since an hour ago | 17:21 |
DocScrutinizer05 | %title https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/die-beschluesse-des-corona-gipfels-deutschland-geht-wieder-in-den-lockdown/26566726.html | 17:24 |
Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05: From www.tagesspiegel.de: Die Beschlüsse des Corona-Gipfels: Deutschland geht wieder in den Lockdown - Politik - Tagesspiegel | 17:24 |
Brainstorm | New from WebMD: COVID-19 Antibodies Decline Over Time, Study Shows: Rather than building up immunity, the number of people with antibodies fell from 6% at the start of the study to 4.4% at the end – a drop of about 26.5%, the release said. → https://is.gd/tl7SNG | 17:32 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +1270 cases (now 9.1 million), +9 deaths (now 232326) since 33 minutes ago — Canada: +116 cases (now 224766), +8 deaths (now 10031) since 33 minutes ago | 17:51 |
cmpx[m] | JHU data is still lagging, like 2+ days, wonder why that is, they are at 8.8 for US | 17:54 |
metreo | They are *ahead* of Canada's official numbers for whatever reason | 17:57 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Sanofi, GSK to provide 200 million Covid vaccine doses to WHO global immunization program: Sanofi and GSK's vaccine is further behind in clinical development than some of the front-runners, such as Pfizer, Moderna and AstraZeneca, which are all in late-stage trials. → https://is.gd/9vG1P4 | 18:00 |
Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Manage Risk to Stay Safe for COVID Thanksgiving: Thanksgiving will be another holiday impacted by the COVID-19 pandemic, with the CDC and other experts recommending either significantly scaled-down, socially distanced activities or replacing the usual traditions with virtual ones to avoid exposure to the airborne illness. → https://is.gd/bJ93Oa | 18:36 |
cmpx[m] | <metreo "They are *ahead* of Canada's off"> They have been consistently ~300k behind in the US data for about a week | 18:44 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +19765 cases (now 1.2 million), +168 deaths (now 35466) since a day ago — US: +11903 cases (now 9.1 million), +172 deaths (now 232498) since an hour ago — Canada: +1 cases (now 224767) since an hour ago | 18:51 |
metreo | cmpx, yes I see that, the information coming out of the US is much more detailed maybe | 19:03 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +3119 cases (now 9.1 million), +43 deaths (now 232541) since 17 minutes ago | 19:06 |
cmpx[m] | metreo: maybe, I know the underlying JHU data has state, county, city breakdown in it. | 19:09 |
metreo | they have been lagging for quite some time tbh | 19:19 |
Brainstorm | New from WebMD: We Asked Five Experts for COVID Thanksgiving Advice: Thing you're ready for Thanksgiving during a pandemic? We asked five scientists and doctors for their best tips. → https://is.gd/oKDgym | 19:22 |
bin_bash | Thing indeed | 19:23 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Iran Reports Record-High Daily Rise in Its COVID-19 Fatalities | 28OCT20 → https://is.gd/JUcJUE | 19:40 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Watch live: Dr. Anthony Fauci discusses coronavirus developments with the JAMA Network: White House coronavirus advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci is scheduled to hold a discussion Wednesday with the the Journal of the American Medical Association. → https://is.gd/uZgKOC | 19:50 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Following a renewed, sharp increase in COVID cases, France imposes a national lockdown → https://is.gd/WgZ0ey | 20:44 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +18162 cases (now 9.1 million), +194 deaths (now 232735) since an hour ago — France: +13993 cases (now 1.2 million), +244 deaths (now 35785) since 14 hours ago — Canada: +60 cases (now 224827), +1 deaths (now 10032) since 2 hours ago | 20:52 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Germany, France announces new Covid restrictions as outbreaks surge across Europe → https://is.gd/0p9eDn | 20:54 |
Brainstorm | New from PLOS ONE: Comparing static and dynamic emotion recognition tests: Performance of healthy participants: by Sara Khosdelazad, Lieke S. Jorna, Skye McDonald, Sandra E. Rakers, Rients B. Huitema, Anne M. Buunk, Jacoba M. Spikman Facial expressions have a communicatory function and the ability to read them is a prerequisite for understanding [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/l0DS1w | 21:03 |
LjL | de-facto, germany on full lockdown too? | 21:10 |
LjL | says <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Coronavirus: France and Germany have announced second national lockdowns → https://is.gd/1Fwk7T | 21:10 |
tinwhiskers | great news... at last. | 21:20 |
tinwhiskers | it'll be fascinating to watch the effect of these. | 21:20 |
LjL | tinwhiskers, well i don't know what Germany is doing exactly but for France having to wait until you have >70k *a day* is a bit insane | 21:23 |
LjL | i don't know how long it'll have to be now to go down to manageable numbers | 21:24 |
tinwhiskers | oh... | 21:24 |
tinwhiskers | so if it drops back below 70k/d the lockdown ends? | 21:24 |
DocScrutinizer05 | some negineers around? what do you think of a regulator system that adjusts the actors based on current measurement value, knowing that the actors take 3 weeks to take effect? each engineer can tell you such a system will overshoot and possibly even oscillate violently. We need a "corona traffic sign" and associated regulations that act not on today's value like >50_per_k_7days but on the forcast of this value for 3 weeks into the | 21:25 |
DocScrutinizer05 | future | 21:25 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: U.S. adds 73K more cases; Dr. Anthony Fauci says end of COVID-19 'not even close' (10122 votes) | https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2020/10/28/US-adds-73K-more-cases-Dr-Fauci-says-end-of-COVID-19-not-even-close/4991603882751/ | https://redd.it/jjpb20 | 21:26 |
DocScrutinizer05 | it's terrifying that this simple concept obviously is unheard of in German politics | 21:27 |
LjL | tinwhiskers, no, i sure hope not. it says it will continue until at least december 1st. also i've skimmed the article now and the german one doesn't seem like a comparably full lockdown, people are still allowed to go places from what i understand | 21:31 |
tinwhiskers | oh well | 21:31 |
DocScrutinizer05 | german "lockdown" is a joke | 21:38 |
DocScrutinizer05 | this "lockdown" basically is "don't meet with others" and "please don't travel" plus "restaurants will close" | 21:40 |
Jigsy | So it's like the UK lockdown? | 21:40 |
Jigsy | "Don't meet with others, but do." "Don't go to work, but do." "Don't go to restuarants, but do." | 21:40 |
DocScrutinizer05 | the "don't meet with others" would be great if it was enforced and not just a applicable for >10 people of two households in public | 21:41 |
DocScrutinizer05 | Jigsy: basically the first 2, yes. Restaurants will close completely so the thrid doesn't apply | 21:42 |
DocScrutinizer05 | wait, no, "don't go to work" also missing | 21:43 |
DocScrutinizer05 | I'm seriously concerned _this_ "lockdown" won't cut it | 21:44 |
DocScrutinizer05 | if it does then only because many smart people do *more* than what this fake lockdown demands for | 21:45 |
DocScrutinizer05 | another fallacy, this time narrator is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helge_Braun >>we shown in summer that we're able to manage it<< no you didn't. You *should* have acted as soon as R_eff went greater 1, you didn't and instead watched incidences per day rise and rise until it went *boom* | 22:05 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Video provides guidance on surgery to wean patients with COVID-19 off ventilators: A temporary tracheostomy—an opening created in the neck to facilitate placing a tube into a person's windpipe—can be essential for allowing a critically ill patient to come off a ventilator. A new article, with an accompanying video, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/5XRM5b | 22:06 |
DocScrutinizer05 | 4 weeks limited lockdown. HAH! And after those 4 weeks, when we see it didn't achieve the goal of brinhing down incidences to <50 /k7d, then what? You gonna say >>well, sorry we tried it. didn't pan out so we stop it now and ...???<< or what? | 22:12 |
DocScrutinizer05 | or are you going to tell german people then >>last 4 weeks didn't help yet, so NOW we need you to stay at home, do homeoffice, don't leave home, don't go to school... At least until new year<<? | 22:15 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Dr. Anthony Fauci says U.S. is in a 'bad position' as daily coronavirus cases hit record highs → https://is.gd/gMjI5T | 22:15 |
de-facto | I dont get why they let schools open, they should get out the maximum of this expensive lockdown, no false compromises or such | 22:15 |
DocScrutinizer05 | full ack | 22:16 |
de-facto | its only going to wear out peoples compliance and prolong the unwanted side effects | 22:17 |
de-facto | i would be for the most strict lockdown possible | 22:18 |
DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: you seen my critics of "corona ampel"? It's frustratingly ridiculous to hear >>we shown we can manage it<< | 22:18 |
de-facto | then IF that works it could be ended sooner and maybe we could control incidence then when significantly restricting mobility across iso-prevalence lines | 22:18 |
de-facto | i am against traffic light systems, it only makes things intransparent for the public | 22:19 |
de-facto | there is no better indicator than daily new infections | 22:19 |
de-facto | and to be honest if Streek states the opposite it disqualifies his competence in my opinion | 22:21 |
DocScrutinizer05 | this is not the way to manage a high inertia system. You need a PID algo, not a digital system with a threshold value of 60/k7d | 22:22 |
de-facto | that guy is used to HIV epidemics, there i may make sense to look at clinical data, this here is MUCH more dynamic | 22:22 |
DocScrutinizer05 | Streek is a fool | 22:22 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Five Spanish regions close borders to fight virus: Five more Spanish regions, including Madrid, said Wednesday they would close their borders ahead of the All Saints' Day long weekend to try to halt a surge in coronavirus infections. → https://is.gd/78uzXY | 22:24 |
de-facto | so 1) we dont know the impact of our containment measures in advance 2) they may show only after 2 weeks or such hence why not take the opposite approach: make a maximum hard lockdown and lift containment one every month until its clear incidence will be endemic in tracing? | 22:25 |
de-facto | compartmentalization finally | 22:25 |
de-facto | congratz Spain | 22:26 |
DocScrutinizer05 | they got a point though: we need a better plan for after lockdown managed to get us into a sane region again. We need a system that acts as soon as R_eff>1 to keep the numbers as low as possible all the time, NOT WAIT until it explodes into our face | 22:26 |
de-facto | yes thats where Streek acutally is correct, we need to find a way to coexist with the virus for quite some time | 22:26 |
de-facto | yes it was the biggest mistake to wait that long | 22:28 |
de-facto | now we have to deal with a big incidence and that makes things very much harder than they could have been | 22:29 |
de-facto | since nonlinear effects are at work more than exponentially harder than they could have been | 22:30 |
de-facto | so why not start today with the "lockdown"? | 22:30 |
de-facto | it already means dealing with 35% more cases to wait until Monday, why would lockdowns started with the begin of the week work better? does not make any sense to me | 22:32 |
de-facto | 35% daily more new cases i mean | 22:33 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Masks and Covid-19: In the US, a patchwork of policies persist: As the United States' COVID-19 infection rate hits an all-time high, calls are growing for a nationwide mask mandate to replace the current patchwork of state regulations. → https://is.gd/MQqorF | 22:33 |
de-facto | was there ever a lockdown bringing the curve down faster than it raised? no? well then every waiting time will prolong the lockdown by more than that waiting time to come back to same incidence | 22:34 |
DocScrutinizer05 | >>why would lockdowns started with the begin of the week work better?<< higher acceptance and compliance maybe. Give people a few days to prepare | 22:37 |
DocScrutinizer05 | but sheeesch, they could prepare for a much harder lockdown of only 3 weeks | 22:38 |
bin_bash | nooooo de-facto | 22:38 |
Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Gilead's revenue rises 17% driven by sales of coronavirus treatment remdesivir → https://is.gd/d3PN0j | 22:42 |
DocScrutinizer05 | btw Streek seems a victim of inappropriate citation somewhat: I didn't hear him saying >>the lockdown is useless<< | 22:45 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +12337 cases (now 9.1 million), +184 deaths (now 232919) since 2 hours ago — Canada: +62 cases (now 224889) since 2 hours ago | 22:52 |
DocScrutinizer05 | >>[Monday, 10 August 2020] [23:26:28 CEST] <DocScrutinizer> 8 wochen<< ("8 weeks", til lockdown) which would've been ~start of October and about the time they *ought* to have done it | 23:10 |
DocScrutinizer05 | of course it would have been smarter to act in August already, to keep R_eff<1 | 23:11 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +8416 cases (now 9.1 million), +99 deaths (now 233018) since 36 minutes ago — Canada: +1063 cases (now 225952), +13 deaths (now 10045) since 32 minutes ago | 23:23 |
Brainstorm | Updates for US: +928 cases (now 9.1 million), +8 deaths (now 233026) since 19 minutes ago | 23:38 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): COVID19: REGENERON'S COVID-19 OUTPATIENT TRIAL PROSPECTIVELY DEMONSTRATES THAT REGN-COV2 ANTIBODY COCKTAIL SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED VIRUS LEVELS AND NEED FOR FURTHER MEDICAL ATTENTION → https://is.gd/Bn0Any | 23:45 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: What defines an efficacious COVID-19 vaccine? A review of the challenges assessing the clinical efficacy of vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 (80 votes) | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30773-8/fulltext?utm_campaign=tlcoronavirus20&utm_content=143976734&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-27013292 | https://redd.it/jjllmj | 23:52 |
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