| Arsanerit | goodnight | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| Skunny | de-facto - wife got the Rona :- / | 00:01 |
| de-facto | ugh not good, sorry to hear, how is she? | 00:03 |
| Skunny | Monday I went to rub her shoulders and she was warm | 00:04 |
| Skunny | she had a 103.1 temp | 00:04 |
| Skunny | Tuesday and today temp is around 98.3 | 00:04 |
| Skunny | body aches right now | 00:04 |
| de-facto | damn, 103.1 is a clear fever, fortunately it went down to normal 98.3, yet keep in mind there is a daily periodic variation in body temperature https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Body_Temp_Variation.png | 00:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: As U.S. Reaches 250,000 Deaths From COVID-19, A Long Winter Is Coming: Medical advances have reduced the infection fatality rate in the U.S. But experts warn that indoor gatherings, cold temperatures and pandemic fatigue augur dark months ahead. → https://is.gd/WefdBw | 00:08 |
| Skunny | Yeah, we monitor all day | 00:08 |
| Skunny | but I had to come back to work today | 00:08 |
| de-facto | your test is negative? | 00:08 |
| LjL | oh de-facto, https://github.com/pcm-dpc/COVID-19/blob/master/dati-andamento-covid19-italia.md has each field described in english too | 00:08 |
| de-facto | oh thanks perfect :) | 00:09 |
| Skunny | still no results | 00:09 |
| Skunny | maybe tomorrow | 00:09 |
| de-facto | you should continue isolation then | 00:09 |
| Skunny | sheeet | 00:09 |
| Skunny | she's like "Fuck all ya" | 00:09 |
| Skunny | uggggg | 00:09 |
| Skunny | I mean we are sleepinig in dif rooms | 00:10 |
| Skunny | shit is such a pain in the ass | 00:10 |
| de-facto | yeah its difficult times, just try to isolate from everyone until you all test negative there | 00:10 |
| Skunny | work said "Nope come back to the place you first got it" | 00:10 |
| LjL | de-facto, i think i know why there is no region 4. region 4 according to ISTAT codes is Trentino-South Tyrol, but in reality for most things (including COVID) that's treated not as a region but as two "independent" provinces, Trento and Bolzano/Bozen | 00:12 |
| LjL | (as a matter of fact, Bolzano/Bozen/South Tyrol is currently a red area i.e. lockdown, while Trentino isn't) | 00:13 |
| de-facto | hmm well a positive PCR just says that the virus RNA is still present (but no statement about if virions still are infectious), yet its strange that it is present in nasal swabs for so long time, not sure but i thought it should have been cleared by now? | 00:13 |
| de-facto | i just would isolate until test is negative for all of you there | 00:13 |
| de-facto | if thats possible somehow | 00:13 |
| LjL | de-facto, you see it uses codes 21 and 22 for "P.A." Trento and "P.A." Bolzano, that P.A. stands for Autonomous Province | 00:13 |
| de-facto | indeed yeah the last two | 00:14 |
| LjL | it's basically a virtual region. in theory those two provinces make up one region, in practice that happens in name only, and they're two separate things :P | 00:14 |
| LjL | South Tyrol wants to be even more separate, they used to make bombs explode for that sometimes :x | 00:15 |
| de-facto | so we just ignore region_code = 4 then (like omiting that?) | 00:15 |
| LjL | de-facto, yep, shouldn't ever show up. or if you want to be fancy for no particular reason, make 4 be the sum of 21 and 22 | 00:16 |
| LjL | and call it Trentino-Alto Adige-Südtirol-South Tyrol | 00:17 |
| LjL | just to be complete :P | 00:17 |
| ryouma | i was unaware of that concept but is is not surprising. logic is not the point of denying the existence or severity of diseases. arguments and concepts serve different purposes than doing the right thing. the interesting part is the self-discovery that it is not a status to be accepted, and that others are not the same, and so on. i wonder whether that took many years and would be interested in the inflection | 00:27 |
| ryouma | points of that self-discovery. --- 14:41 <Brainstorm> ryouma: At 2020-11-18 18:36:45 UTC, LjL told you: here's a good demonstration of the reason the "it's just a sound, accept it and stop seeing it as threatening, and it'll be like it's gone away" concept about tinnitus is bullshit: https://www.reddit.com/r/tinnitus/comments/jvi7iq/i_thought_this_was_the_normal_sound_of_silence/ this person never KNEW they had ti | 00:27 |
| ryouma | nnitus before now, and yet, they knew they couldn't enjoy silence and someth | 00:27 |
| LjL | ryouma, it's not the first person i find on those places who's like "i didn't realize i had tinnitus before visiting this place" | 00:29 |
| LjL | one of that actually said it didn't bother him that much before, but now that he knows it's "not normal", it bothers him much more | 00:29 |
| LjL | while this other one points into a different direction | 00:29 |
| LjL | he just never understood how others could possibly enjoy silence | 00:29 |
| LjL | then he lands on a tinnitus forum, and he's like "oh." | 00:29 |
| euod[m] | heh, it's one of the reasons I have issues with summer houses | 00:30 |
| euod[m] | you're like, yep it's dead fucking quite, lets enjoy the tinnitus | 00:30 |
| ryouma | somebody wanted measures timelines. here is one source. https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-lockdowns/ | 00:30 |
| ryouma | m.e. and long covid and the uk nice guidelines. https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/17/proposed-british-guidelines-reject-useless-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-treatments/# | 00:31 |
| ryouma | before he discovered the problem was he told he was bad for having that problem | 00:32 |
| LjL | euod[m], my tinnitus can usually (not always, it's ups and downs) be masked by a white noise machine i wear on my neck. so it's not THAT loud, objectively. but if i turn off the white noise machine, the sound i hear is just horrid | 00:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Science: Caribbean cruise COVID outbreak expands; Cruise line cancels voyages → https://is.gd/aE32Zl | 00:33 |
| LjL | so i basically try to always have white noise, if i don't have it even for a minute, i start feeling really bad. i guess that part is psychological | 00:33 |
| LjL | outdoors it's usually fine | 00:33 |
| LjL | but at home it's silent | 00:33 |
| LjL | ryouma, de-facto, hmm, financial times doesn't give the details of each lockdown but merges them together as a "stringency index". interesting approach, though inevitably arbitrary to some extent | 00:35 |
| LjL | To enable such comparisons, a team at Oxford university’s Blavatnik School of Government is maintaining a database of pandemic-response policies and using it to derive an index of the measures’ overall stringency. | 00:35 |
| LjL | More than 100 volunteer academics and students collate publicly-available information on government response measures, across nine policy areas. These are assigned stringency ratings which are then used to derive a composite score between 0 and 100. Most other efforts to track the pandemic response take the form of lists of events without attempting to create comparable measures across countries. | 00:35 |
| LjL | so it looks like we can have access to those indices as raw data too, not just from the FT article | 00:36 |
| ryouma | github or something | 00:36 |
| LjL | here https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/research-projects/coronavirus-government-response-tracker and here https://covidtracker.bsg.ox.ac.uk/ | 00:37 |
| LjL | not quite sure what's the difference between the two pages | 00:37 |
| ryouma | quelle surprise --- 16:33 <Brainstorm> New from Ars Technica: Science: Caribbean cruise COVID outbreak expands; Cruise line cancels voyages → https://is.gd/aE32Zl | 00:38 |
| LjL | also "New: Updated Risk of Openness Index (previously 'Lockdown Rollback Checklist') now published: see the research note. The index aims to help countries understand if it is safe to ‘open up’ or whether they should ‘close down’ in their fight to tackle the coronavirus. See the full dataset on GitHub." | 00:38 |
| LjL | ryouma, yeah, i haven't followed but i saw they had an outbreak, bright ideas always shine | 00:38 |
| ryouma | (github single point of failure for large proportion of data and free software) | 00:39 |
| LjL | they do have it on github indeed https://github.com/OxCGRT/covid-policy-scratchpad | 00:39 |
| LjL | ryouma, yeah, some free software projects are starting to realize that, especially after getting DMCA taken down | 00:40 |
| LjL | (for bogus reasons) | 00:40 |
| LjL | https://github.blog/2020-11-16-standing-up-for-developers-youtube-dl-is-back/ | 00:41 |
| ryouma | btw my numbers are much lower than that chart. around 95f. --- 16:07 <de-facto> damn, 103.1 is a clear fever, fortunately it went down to normal 98.3, yet keep in mind there is a daily periodic variation in body temperature https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Body_Temp_Variation.png | 00:44 |
| ryouma | dentist used a forehead gun. said 95f. you are clear. | 00:45 |
| de-facto | yeah those temperatures differ individually, each got their own typical daily curves i guess | 00:47 |
| de-facto | depends on many things such as activity, age, metabolism etc pp | 00:47 |
| de-facto | but a deviation above a certain threshold from the "usual curves" indicates something is going on | 00:48 |
| LjL | here it's now literally illegal to go out if you're above 37.5°C | 00:52 |
| LjL | well actually it's now illegal to go out *anyway* in many cases, but, it's definitely *more* illegal if you have a temperature above 37.5 | 00:53 |
| de-facto | makes sense | 00:55 |
| de-facto | although 37.5 is only slightly above normal id say, afaik 38.5 or such is a clear fever, yet it depends on the persons individual levels | 00:56 |
| LjL | yeah i dunno, anything above 37 means something's not quite right with me | 00:57 |
| LjL | unless i've been cooking in the sun or something maybe | 00:57 |
| LjL | in which case i better go back inside anyway | 00:57 |
| LjL | anyway if you are hovering around 37.5, even though it's "illegal", clearly you can say "oh when i left home i was 37.0 and perfectly fine" and you won't be fined unless you meet the most asshole cop ever | 00:58 |
| LjL | (which to be fair is pretty easy, most of them are... uh... not... great...) | 00:58 |
| LjL | https://covidtracker.bsg.ox.ac.uk/stringency-scatter is interesting (i think i see a positive correlation), but it's only for october and november :( i hoped this dataset would go back to spring | 01:11 |
| LjL | uhm but some of their data on github *do* go back to 1 jan 2020 | 01:12 |
| LjL | de-facto, looks like here https://github.com/OxCGRT/covid-policy-tracker/tree/master/data/timeseries they have the raw "events" that they derive strictness index from: school closures, cancelling public events, etc... so i think this is exactly what we've been wanting | 01:13 |
| ryouma | btw there is also the opposite like allowing sturgis rally in nd, allowing olympics in .ja | 01:16 |
| LjL | i bet there won't be olympics in japand | 01:16 |
| LjL | (but there will be in japan without a d) | 01:17 |
| ryouma | .jp | 01:18 |
| ryouma | what is .ja | 01:18 |
| ryouma | i wonder if cruise shiups are on there | 01:20 |
| ryouma | the data should proibably be transposed as there are probably fewer countries than dates | 01:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: First coronavirus case happened one year ago today, according to China → https://is.gd/Jv5EId | 01:22 |
| tinwhiskers | Pops the champagne. One year! Woot. | 01:27 |
| darsie | coronavirus saves nature | 01:28 |
| de-facto | %title https://imgur.com/a/ULmfOu7 https://i.imgur.com/9Lc7q03.png source: https://paste.gg/p/anonymous/f31d04f5a62a47c79118292a8ea45825 | 01:28 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 Italy: Occupied ICU beds per region - Album on Imgur | 01:28 |
| de-facto | LjL, ^^ this is the newest revision, i tried my best to translate the names correctly into English and also to interpret them semantically, take a look at the source script, the output is the SVG per region as you suggested, but I also added some interesting curves for all of Italy (they are commented out in the SQL) | 01:29 |
| LjL | de-facto, cool, but, uhm, isn't there some other way to make a log chart that doesn't make the bottom part so jittery? i understand that it's simply because they are, factually, discrete numbers below 10, but it makes it look a bit confusing | 01:37 |
| LjL | by "way" i mean... some layout that still makes mathematical sense, i guess :P | 01:38 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, "according to China" → where are the italian sewers?! don't they count as PEOPLE?!?! | 01:39 |
| de-facto | well a log chart does not have a "0" hence the low numbers always stretch down geometrically, hence an arbitrary small positive number is almost at infinite distance | 01:39 |
| tinwhiskers | LjL: lol | 01:40 |
| de-facto | the jitter comes from the stretching, hence the details become more visible (quite an advantage of log graphs) | 01:40 |
| tinwhiskers | That's based on contact tracing of confirmed cases | 01:40 |
| LjL | de-facto, i understand that, but in this case the details are not really there because it's integer numbers, so the advantage is not so much there. i think maybe i can try smoothing out the data with a moving average but only when the numbers are small...? | 01:41 |
| de-facto | i mean if you dont like that "0 cases" are geometrically at negative infinity one might add 1 case to all of them, but thats essentially a lie then | 01:41 |
| LjL | no that's not my problem with it, i mean i guess it's a bit weird but it's even weirder that i had never noticed that before in log charts - it's mainly just legibility | 01:42 |
| de-facto | if you want it linear you can comment out "set logscale y" => "#set logscale y" | 01:42 |
| de-facto | yeah the jitter comes from that there are no fractional cases, e.g. its either 1 or 2 but not 1.235 or such | 01:43 |
| de-facto | idk how to make that more beautiful, any idea? | 01:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid: US records quarter of a million deaths from coronavirus → https://is.gd/7jvfwv | 01:46 |
| LjL | de-facto, well i'd have an idea but it would involve changing the data. basically, shown_datum_n = datum_n * (weight) + (datum_n+datum_(n-1)+datum_(n+1))/3 * (1 - weight) where weight is itself dependent on datum_n, if it's big then weight is closer to 1 and the averaging tends towards not happening, if it's small, it tends towards averaging | 01:47 |
| LjL | not sure what exactly to make weight | 01:48 |
| LjL | weight = datum_n/datum_max would be the first thing i can think of | 01:48 |
| de-facto | well one might try to do that on the TSV data and then feed the result into gnuplot script | 01:49 |
| LjL | de-facto, by the way, i was joking about the full name of South Tyrol, it's fine as just South Tyrol if we're doing English :P | 01:49 |
| LjL | %wik South Tyrol | 01:50 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, from English Wikipedia: South Tyrol is an autonomous province in northern Italy, one of the two that make up the autonomous region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. Its official trilingual denomination is Autonome Provinz Bozen – Südtirol in German, Provincia autonoma di Bolzano – Alto Adige in Italian and Provinzia [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrol | 01:50 |
| LjL | trilingual head spin | 01:50 |
| LjL | i thought the english wikipedia called the region "Trentino-South Tyrol" | 01:50 |
| ryouma | assuming no major measures taken until jan 20, and then moderate to major measures taken then, at what time will the us contagious cases per capita reach the same level at present, on the way down from the peak | 01:52 |
| de-facto | ok so its just South Tyrol | 01:52 |
| LjL | oh lord https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Trentino-Alto_Adige/S%C3%BCdtirol#Requested_move | 01:52 |
| ryouma | or, substitute your own view of measures and answer hte same q | 01:53 |
| LjL | the page is actually protected from moves for that reason | 01:53 |
| LjL | italians can't avoid fighting, evidently | 01:53 |
| LjL | and sometimes almost-italians-kinda-austrians too! | 01:53 |
| LjL | de-facto, the region would be "Trentino-South Tyrol", the Trentino part is actually a different part. basically you have "Trentino", which is only ever said in italian, and then you have the other part which can be called Alto Adige in Italian, Südtirol in German (both official in Italy), and South Tyrol in english | 01:55 |
| LjL | i mean it doesn't really matter | 01:55 |
| LjL | except to angry wikipedians | 01:55 |
| de-facto | so what name should it be then? "Trentino-South Tyrol" for that graph then? | 01:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Covid vaccine: Former Obama FDA chief says she trusts integrity of the agency's approval process → https://is.gd/svl1gf | 01:58 |
| LjL | de-facto, if you're putting 21 and 22 together as a sum, yep | 02:02 |
| LjL | in other words | 02:02 |
| LjL | P.A. Trento = Trentino | 02:02 |
| LjL | P.A. Bolzano = South Tyrol | 02:02 |
| LjL | it's all a legal fiction that they are two "autonomous" provinces inside one region now, though | 02:02 |
| LjL | they are basically regions of their own | 02:02 |
| de-facto | crazy, i never realized that before | 02:03 |
| LjL | well i was just reading the wikipedia talk page | 02:03 |
| LjL | it gets confusing :P | 02:03 |
| de-facto | how about the translations of the column headers into English? are those somewhat accurate like that? | 02:03 |
| LjL | apparently, according to someone, *historically*, Trentino was actually Südtirol, while South Tyrol was Mitteltirol | 02:03 |
| LjL | using german or else this would make even less sense | 02:03 |
| ryouma | want a fact? a few years ago, an fda panel to for ampligen (rintatolimod), a drug for m.e., rejected it. the panel included a woman who said afterwards that she might have changed her vote if she had known the seriousness of the disease. | 02:03 |
| de-facto | in function create_table | 02:04 |
| LjL | de-facto, i think totale_casi may be wrong, let me double check | 02:04 |
| LjL | although i'm getting that thing i had yesterday again with headache when i look at bright colors :\ so i'm trying to fiddle with my computer's brightness but it's at minimum and it's still painful. *grabs sunglasses* | 02:05 |
| de-facto | i have all my Gnome inverted so its white on black or colors on black :) | 02:06 |
| LjL | de-facto, lol, yeah, i have changed so many apps, that i might as well just do that instead maybe... | 02:08 |
| LjL | anyway, these lines are wrong | 02:08 |
| LjL | cases_positive_total INTEGER NOT NULL, -- Total amount of current positive cases (totale_positivi) (Hospitalised patients + Home confinement) | 02:08 |
| LjL | cases_positive_change INTEGER NOT NULL, -- Change amount of current positive cases (totale_positivi) (current day - previous day) | 02:08 |
| LjL | cases_total_change INTEGER NOT NULL, -- Change amount of current positive cases (totale_casi) (current day - previous day) | 02:08 |
| de-facto | ok what is wrong with those? | 02:08 |
| LjL | totale_positivi is the total of people who tested positive to PCR (so it's correct, actually) | 02:08 |
| LjL | but totale_casi is not current-previous | 02:09 |
| ryouma | wled backlight monitors are marketed on their brightness not dimness. they need to be marketed on their dimness (white point). | 02:09 |
| LjL | it's still a total number, but it includes cases that are not from PCR | 02:09 |
| LjL | i.e. cases from rapid tests or diagnosed clinically | 02:09 |
| LjL | and also you mention totale_positivi twice | 02:09 |
| ryouma | better yet they need to be discontinued and replaced with a technoology that goes down to zero brightness with no pwm. | 02:09 |
| LjL | ryouma, actually my computer is okay though, it *does* go down to nearly zero *under Linux* and i don't think it's doing PWM | 02:10 |
| LjL | ryouma, under Windows i would hate it, but under Linux i must be careful because i can actually move it down to 0 and then i cannot see anything anymore | 02:10 |
| LjL | (except as a faint reflection) | 02:10 |
| ryouma | you are only closing subpixels if you are using redshift. ddccontrol can go to 0 but it just means minimum brightness for the backlight. | 02:10 |
| de-facto | cases_positive_total are the current active cases (so tested positive and confinement at home or treated in hospital) | 02:11 |
| LjL | ryouma, no i'm talking about the actual backlight brightness | 02:11 |
| ryouma | you are reducing contrast which will cause different problems | 02:11 |
| de-facto | cases_positive_change is just the change of them relative to the day before | 02:11 |
| ryouma | that is hardware | 02:11 |
| ryouma | linux cannot control that unless the technology is not wled or it uses pwm | 02:11 |
| LjL | ryouma, it's hardware, but Windows doesn't offer an option to set the hardware to "zero" or "nearly zero", Linux does | 02:12 |
| ryouma | f.lux probably does on windows (hearsay) | 02:12 |
| ryouma | ddccontrol or a /sys/class/brightness on linux | 02:12 |
| LjL | ryouma, i didn't say it's not WLED | 02:12 |
| ryouma | i didn't say you sa... what? | 02:12 |
| LjL | ryouma, you said 18<24ryouma18> linux cannot control that unless the technology is not wled or it uses pwm | 02:13 |
| LjL | and my claim is | 02:13 |
| LjL | 1) i don't think it uses PWM | 02:13 |
| ryouma | you cannot get a wled monitor with reasonable minimum brightness unless it uses pwm | 02:13 |
| LjL | 2) it IS wled | 02:13 |
| LjL | ryouma, well i don't know, how can i verify it does *not* use PWM? my smartphone has a 240fps camera mode, would that do the trick? | 02:13 |
| ryouma | i don't think there are any wled panels that go to zero or any reasonable number | 02:14 |
| LjL | ryouma, so we're on the same page - wled means that the backlight is formed by white leds, right? | 02:14 |
| ryouma | yeah you cahn do a camera trick to find out. or read reviews on tft central. | 02:14 |
| ryouma | idk about fps | 02:14 |
| LjL | ryouma, it's not a common model | 02:14 |
| LjL | it's a laptop | 02:14 |
| ryouma | it is formed by leds that are called white | 02:14 |
| ryouma | they are actually blue leds with yellow coating | 02:14 |
| ryouma | the specturm has a peak at blue | 02:14 |
| LjL | yeah | 02:15 |
| LjL | but anyway, this is a laptop, the backlight is being changed by Linux in hardware | 02:15 |
| ryouma | can it go to black? | 02:15 |
| ryouma | with no glow? | 02:15 |
| ryouma | in a completely dark room? | 02:15 |
| ryouma | if not then you are closing subpixels | 02:16 |
| LjL | ryouma, uhm, actually right now it can't. but they must have changed something in GNOME, because it *used* to do that - i know for sure because i did it by mistake sometimes, and i just couldn't find the slider anymore | 02:16 |
| de-facto | so accumulated_cases_total (totale_casi) is the number of cases accumulated from all sort of tests over time? | 02:17 |
| LjL | the screen would be pitch black, except i could *faintly* see stuff on it if i pointed a bright light against it | 02:17 |
| de-facto | like PCR and antigen? | 02:17 |
| LjL | de-facto, yes, and there are other columns that specify what the various types of tests are that add up over totale_casi | 02:17 |
| ryouma | hmm, then it is quite surprising technology | 02:17 |
| ryouma | and my guess is pwm | 02:17 |
| LjL | de-facto, they don't actually have antigen (they probably made these columns before that waas a thing) | 02:18 |
| LjL | de-facto, they have "casi_da_sospetto_diagnostico" which is "cases from a clinical diagnosis suspicion of COVID" and "casi_da_screening" which is literally "cases from screening" but i know that it means "cases from the ISTAT antibody survey" | 02:19 |
| LjL | ryouma, i can't rule out it's PWM, but i *think* i tried to figure that out at some point and i found that it wasn't | 02:19 |
| ryouma | dunno, maybe laptops have some special backlight i have never heard of. but if they did, it would presumably be scaled to desktops. even though white point is not marketed. | 02:20 |
| de-facto | LjL indeed its the sum of those | 02:21 |
| LjL | Dammit | 02:22 |
| LjL | ryouma: it DOES go pitch black :p | 02:22 |
| LjL | I am now typing on my phone | 02:22 |
| ryouma | i must be using the wrong term. the counterpart of black depth. which is merely what black looks like. i do not mean color stuff. | 02:22 |
| LjL | I can't see a thing on the screen | 02:22 |
| ryouma | phones use oled sometimes | 02:22 |
| LjL | I can still see there are brighter portions IF I put it under a bright light | 02:22 |
| ryouma | that one can go to black | 02:22 |
| ryouma | huh | 02:22 |
| ryouma | oled is not backlight tech usually | 02:23 |
| ryouma | i think | 02:23 |
| LjL | ryouma: I'm saying that I am using my phone now, because I have made my laptop screen pitch black | 02:23 |
| LjL | Oh lord | 02:23 |
| ryouma | ah | 02:23 |
| LjL | I thought I could easily reverse the echo >/sys/backlight etc command | 02:23 |
| LjL | But apparently I'm not good at counting number of chars | 02:23 |
| ryouma | can you get legible text when it is extremely low but still lit? | 02:23 |
| ryouma | without shining a light | 02:24 |
| LjL | okay, suspend-resume fixed it | 02:24 |
| LjL | ryouma, no | 02:24 |
| tinwhiskers | even with OLED there is a tiny amount of transistor leakage that makes it glow very very slightly but you can only see it in extreme pitch black. | 02:24 |
| LjL | or i'd have been able to reverse the command | 02:24 |
| ryouma | then you have not solved the problem | 02:25 |
| LjL | i typed: echo 0 > /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:02.0/drm/card0/card0-eDP-1/intel_backlight/brightness | 02:25 |
| LjL | ryouma, what do you mean | 02:25 |
| ryouma | you might be ok with it yourself, but the minimum brightness is not black | 02:25 |
| LjL | ... | 02:25 |
| LjL | are you reading what i'm saying | 02:25 |
| ryouma | or even close to it. you are closing subpixels i think | 02:25 |
| LjL | i said i could NOT GET legible text | 02:25 |
| LjL | i COULD NOT SEE ANYTHING | 02:25 |
| ryouma | right | 02:25 |
| LjL | IT WAS BLACK | 02:25 |
| LjL | it COULD see SOMETHING | 02:25 |
| LjL | if i shone a light | 02:25 |
| LjL | barely | 02:25 |
| ryouma | please read carefully --- 18:23 <ryouma> can you get legible text when it is extremely low BUT STILL LIT? | 02:25 |
| LjL | i don't understand | 02:26 |
| ryouma | 18:24 <ryouma> without shining a light | 02:26 |
| LjL | you mean like setting it to 1? | 02:26 |
| ryouma | yes | 02:26 |
| ryouma | do you get contrasty text | 02:26 |
| LjL | well it's set to 9 presently as that's the current minimum GNOME allows | 02:26 |
| LjL | and i can read stuff | 02:26 |
| LjL | (in the dark) | 02:26 |
| de-facto | tinwhiskers, yeah and it even shows the resistance of the conductors, e.g. for very dark gray its like a gradient from one side to the other because of voltage drop i guess | 02:26 |
| LjL | i'll try 1 | 02:26 |
| LjL | yes ryouma | 02:26 |
| LjL | it is not EXTREMELY dark | 02:26 |
| LjL | but i can see what i am typing | 02:27 |
| tinwhiskers | de-facto: oh, I hadn't noticed that one | 02:27 |
| ryouma | is the text contrasty | 02:27 |
| LjL | err | 02:27 |
| tinwhiskers | but totally believe it | 02:27 |
| LjL | it is NOW* extremely dark | 02:27 |
| LjL | ryouma, i don't know what you mean by contrasty... i can read the text, and now that i've turned out the light, my eyes are slowly adapting to reading stuff here | 02:27 |
| LjL | i can definitely see white as white and gray as gray | 02:27 |
| de-facto | i think thats the reason the try to employ PWM to avoid that to some extend | 02:28 |
| LjL | de-facto, what is the gradient thing you're saying? | 02:28 |
| ryouma | i won | 02:28 |
| LjL | ryouma, why did you win, i really don't get it | 02:28 |
| tinwhiskers | I'd be surprised if backlit displays *didn't* use PWM | 02:28 |
| ryouma | nm. was going to be i won't | 02:29 |
| LjL | jesus christ i wish i could just show you all my screen | 02:29 |
| ryouma | and stuff | 02:29 |
| LjL | (i can take a picture of course but it's not very meaningful) | 02:29 |
| ryouma | i dan't type further muych and this isn't really going anywyere or that useful imo | 02:29 |
| LjL | (my camera doesn't have the aperture to capture this almost-zero amount of light from the screen) | 02:29 |
| LjL | well ryouma | 02:29 |
| LjL | i can read what you say | 02:29 |
| LjL | i can read what i say | 02:29 |
| ryouma | good | 02:29 |
| LjL | i can do this only in a very dark room | 02:29 |
| LjL | and only after my eyes have adapted | 02:29 |
| ryouma | sure | 02:30 |
| de-facto | very dark gray on OLED appears as gradient i guess due to voltage drop in the conductors of the display, i mean its real power delivery after all | 02:30 |
| LjL | but aside from that, the screen is still showing colors and stuff | 02:30 |
| LjL | i just don't know what "contrasty" is | 02:30 |
| LjL | of course there is less contrast than with the brightness blasted full | 02:30 |
| LjL | note, again, this is with backlight at 1. at 0 i just can't see a thing anymore | 02:30 |
| ryouma | 0 could be off | 02:31 |
| LjL | 0 is definitely off | 02:31 |
| ryouma | backlight off | 02:31 |
| LjL | yes | 02:31 |
| de-facto | lol | 02:31 |
| LjL | but even with it off, i can still make out some things *if* i shine a light against it | 02:31 |
| ryouma | that says that it is an led tech | 02:31 |
| LjL | ryouma, but at level 1, it can't just be the pixels being set to their "1" value | 02:31 |
| tinwhiskers | no | 02:31 |
| ryouma | a backlight tech | 02:31 |
| LjL | or i'd have an 8-color screen | 02:31 |
| LjL | instead i have full colors | 02:32 |
| LjL | i still have degrees of gray | 02:32 |
| ryouma | lcd* | 02:32 |
| LjL | it is an LCD with LED as backlight | 02:32 |
| LjL | i certainly know that much | 02:32 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah, that's most likely | 02:32 |
| ryouma | so you have a good panel, rather surprisingly | 02:32 |
| LjL | and i think it's not PWM because if it were PWM, at this *very very dark* level of backlight, i'd see it flickering... | 02:32 |
| LjL | it would have to flicker visibly | 02:32 |
| tinwhiskers | nah, you wouldn't see the flickering | 02:33 |
| Docscr | LjL: one of the reasons I want a sshd on all mz machines :-) | 02:33 |
| ryouma | no, pwm can be any freq | 02:33 |
| tinwhiskers | the PWM can be extremely fast duty cycle | 02:33 |
| LjL | i guess | 02:33 |
| LjL | i won't try the fast-fps camera thing | 02:33 |
| de-facto | no led would just be PWM but "smoothed" by a capacitance, hence the LEDs dont blink but the transistors also dont produce heat | 02:33 |
| LjL | because i'm pretty sure my camera just won't capture anything | 02:33 |
| LjL | it's too dark | 02:33 |
| Docscr | umm no, capacitors are counterproductive with PWM | 02:34 |
| LjL | hm well, maybe with a full-white screen the camera can capture something | 02:34 |
| ryouma | full white will not be using pwm | 02:35 |
| Docscr | unless you add a inductor and get a buck converter# | 02:35 |
| ryouma | there are iknstructions online | 02:35 |
| Docscr | which basically _is_ what all LED driver chips do | 02:35 |
| LjL | welp, no. camera doesn't see anything | 02:36 |
| tinwhiskers | the PWM could well be in kilohertz speeds. You likely won't capture it. | 02:36 |
| ryouma | and also reviews are mentioning pwm these days unlike the old days when that disease was also the target of attacks | 02:36 |
| LjL | ryouma, "full white" i mean the LCD pixels, not the backlight! | 02:36 |
| LjL | it's the backlight that's doing PWM surely | 02:36 |
| de-facto | what i mean is a low-pass filter | 02:36 |
| ryouma | ok | 02:36 |
| ryouma | yes | 02:36 |
| Docscr | tinwhiskers: the LED drivers are usually constant current buck converters | 02:37 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. ok | 02:37 |
| LjL | ryouma, anyway this *is* a good panel, in general, for all i can tell... it's a 12" 1080p IPS panel, so not completely usual i guess | 02:38 |
| LjL | right now even with the backlight at 2 it's still too dim for the camera to pick up any light :P | 02:38 |
| tinwhiskers | There are mushrooms here that glow brighter than that :-/ | 02:38 |
| Docscr | sorry, actuallz depends, in phones thez are usually boost | 02:39 |
| tinwhiskers | ah. ok | 02:39 |
| LjL | and now the camera is also crashed -.- | 02:39 |
| ryouma | the reason i am skeptical is that if the backlight had the desired properties (goes down to say 1 nit or lower without pwm) then it would probably be put into 32 inch monitors also. becuase you can just combine them probably and have a diffuser. | 02:39 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, try eating them! | 02:39 |
| tinwhiskers | hell no! | 02:39 |
| tinwhiskers | I collected a bunch of them and I could barely read a book by their light. | 02:39 |
| Docscr | phone LCD display backlight often is in the range of 15 to 20V | 02:39 |
| ryouma | ok, tell us --- 18:38 <tinwhiskers> There are mushrooms here that glow brighter than that :-/ | 02:39 |
| tinwhiskers | They continued to glow for about 3 days after being picked and tailed off roughly linearly. | 02:40 |
| ryouma | i wonder what mechanism they use | 02:40 |
| tinwhiskers | mmm | 02:40 |
| ryouma | and why | 02:40 |
| LjL | ryouma, well i don't know how to verify it's not PWM. i could try to find again the web source i remember reading, but even if i find it, it might be wrong. and if tinwhiskers is right that the PWM is too fast for the camera to possibly pick it up... but tinwhiskers, with 240fps, wouldn't it still pick up some kind of "wobbling" brightness because of interference between the camera shutter speed and the PWM speed? unless it happens to be an exact multiple | 02:40 |
| tinwhiskers | maybe | 02:41 |
| LjL | contingo, <ryouma> ok, tell us --- 18:38 <tinwhiskers> There are mushrooms here that glow brighter than that :-/ 18<24ryouma18> i wonder what mechanism they use 18<24ryouma18> and why | 02:41 |
| LjL | "whoops" | 02:41 |
| tinwhiskers | It *could* be quite slow as well. I wouldn't know. | 02:41 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, well i guess it's only possibly good at verifying "yes, it's PWM" but not really "no, it's not" :\ | 02:41 |
| tinwhiskers | you might pick it up and that would confirm it, but you might not and you wouldn't be any the wiser. | 02:42 |
| LjL | besides, i have to reboot my phone because its camera crashed | 02:42 |
| tinwhiskers | snap | 02:42 |
| LjL | maybe i should ask it to do these things :P | 02:42 |
| LjL | shouldn't* | 02:42 |
| LjL | argh | 02:42 |
| LjL | now the full backlight of my phone rebooting killed my eyes | 02:42 |
| tinwhiskers | 240fps is nice! | 02:42 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, yeah but only at 480p at most, and clearly, at reduced ability to... capture light | 02:43 |
| ryouma | anyway if you can lower the brightness and get contrast and good color balance and no glow then you don't need sunglasses | 02:43 |
| tinwhiskers | ah. right | 02:43 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, it's still nice to see what happens when a drop of water falls, or the like :P | 02:43 |
| tinwhiskers | You should set the backlight to about 90% I guess | 02:43 |
| Docscr | https://www.ti.com/power-management/led-drivers/backlight-led-drivers/products.html | 02:43 |
| tinwhiskers | cool | 02:43 |
| LjL | ryouma, i probably don't, no, but i hadn't realized that GNOME only went down to 9. before, it used to go down to full pitch black | 02:44 |
| tinwhiskers | maybe it'd be easier to spot with a longer duty cycle at 50% though. See how far you can lower the backlight and still capture something with the camera. | 02:44 |
| LjL | ryouma, so my assumption that i was keeping it almost as low as GNOME could give me was mistaken, because they changed GNOME in the meanwhile :P | 02:44 |
| LjL | ryouma, but also, the sunglasses i have are blue-light-blocking, so that effects helps a little too (but yes, i also do have [the equivalent of] redshift) | 02:45 |
| ryouma | redshift closes pixels | 02:45 |
| ryouma | you will get leakage of blue | 02:45 |
| ryouma | monitor settings also close pixels | 02:45 |
| LjL | ryouma, hence, the blue-light-blocking glasses help... | 02:45 |
| ryouma | right | 02:45 |
| LjL | even if the backlight goes down to very dark, a white screen will still have (comparatively) a lot of blue light | 02:46 |
| Docscr | for example https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps61177a.pdf?ts=1605727584456&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F page 28 figure 36 | 02:46 |
| LjL | and my eyes will adjust and then they'll be like "but i still want darker!" | 02:46 |
| ryouma | right | 02:46 |
| ryouma | \you do need glasses if you are talking about spectrum issues | 02:47 |
| ryouma | whiuch ones do you use | 02:47 |
| LjL | ryouma, ah, the claim it wasn't PWM was based on this review https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-Transformer-Book-T302CA-FL010T-Convertible-Review.183020.0.html | 02:47 |
| LjL | ryouma, you can search for PWM in it and they basically have done... something... to determine whether or not the screen exhibits a PWM effect | 02:47 |
| LjL | so they only observed it somehow, they don't *know* it | 02:47 |
| Docscr | or https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm36273.pdf?ts=1605693134394&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.ti.com%252Fpower-management%252Fled-drivers%252Fbacklight-led-drivers%252Fproducts.html%253Fpqs%253Dpocs%2526familyid%253D3055 | 02:48 |
| LjL | ryouma, i use cheap Bollé "safety" glasses (which are more like sunglasses than "safety") | 02:48 |
| ryouma | i use a combination of monitor set to low blue and green (pixels), ddccontrol set to 0 (backlight), redshift set really low and whitepoint red (pixels), and very dark glasses that block blue up to pretty high freq. | 02:48 |
| LjL | ryouma, https://www.amazon.co.uk/Boll%C3%A9-253-CT-40047-Semi-Rimless-Anti-Fog-Gunmetal/dp/B009KQCMUQ/ | 02:49 |
| LjL | these are the ones i'm wearing now | 02:49 |
| ryouma | yeah mine are much more blue blocking and much darker | 02:49 |
| ryouma | noir 570 | 02:49 |
| LjL | i have darker ones too, but those are not blue-blocking | 02:49 |
| ryouma | you might be interested in uvex sct-orange | 02:50 |
| LjL | ryouma, you've seen the price range of mine though, right? :P | 02:50 |
| ryouma | no | 02:50 |
| LjL | oh i see show cheap stuff shows up on uvex sct-orange too | 02:51 |
| LjL | ryouma, well, between 10 and 20 bucks basically | 02:51 |
| LjL | depending on the amazon day | 02:51 |
| ryouma | noir is that | 02:51 |
| tinwhiskers | I hope you have the original BluBlockers! | 02:51 |
| ryouma | i had to pay 28 for uvex for some reason because they must have been hoarded or something. but i so not use it because it is not dark enough or go high enough in spectrum. but they are good. | 02:52 |
| ryouma | they used to be much cheaper | 02:52 |
| tinwhiskers | BluBlockers are style incarnate! | 02:52 |
| de-facto | hmm that covidtracker from LjL does not have any Germany data? | 02:52 |
| LjL | ryouma, some things show up on amazon when i search for "uvex sct-orange" but no such luck with "noir 570". it shows me glasses that look quite orange though | 02:52 |
| tinwhiskers | well, they are if you're a porn director anyway | 02:52 |
| ryouma | no they are very dark amber | 02:52 |
| ryouma | go to mfr site | 02:52 |
| LjL | de-facto, they do have Germany in their interactive graphs. are you looking at the raw data? | 02:53 |
| ryouma | wish i hadn't gotten the uvex but i didn't know that the darker stuff would fit. it fits but it digs into my skull. ridiculously strong polycarbonate temples. but i still use it. | 02:53 |
| de-facto | im trying to understand https://covidtracker.bsg.ox.ac.uk/stringency-scatter | 02:54 |
| LjL | de-facto, on that one, in "2 Select country", i can select Germany, and it shows up | 02:54 |
| LjL | ryouma, ah so noir 570 are not uvex, i thought they were a subtype of uvex. i see on google their dark amber color now | 02:55 |
| de-facto | ah now its there, weird, havent found it at first look | 02:55 |
| ryouma | uvex = honeywell | 02:57 |
| ryouma | oem or something | 02:57 |
| ryouma | noir is its own company perhaps | 02:57 |
| LjL | anyway, i hadn't really had these spells of light sensitivity in a while | 02:58 |
| LjL | just today and yesterday it came back | 02:58 |
| LjL | i mean, i do keep my backlight pretty low most of the time, but i don't positively get a headache and my eyes hurting usually | 02:58 |
| LjL | but it happened before for a period. couldn't go into stores | 02:58 |
| LjL | they LOVE to blind you with light | 02:58 |
| ryouma | idk if carotenoids reduce that | 02:58 |
| LjL | well funny thing | 02:59 |
| LjL | i've always hated carrots, recently i started loving them | 02:59 |
| LjL | so i'm eating a lot | 02:59 |
| LjL | cooked, though | 02:59 |
| de-facto | quite interesting they describe their stringency level at https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/research-projects/coronavirus-government-response-tracker | 03:00 |
| LjL | de-facto, have you managed to figure out why there's both https://www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/research-projects/coronavirus-government-response-tracker and https://covidtracker.bsg.ox.ac.uk/ ? | 03:01 |
| LjL | both kinda look like "homepages" for the thing | 03:01 |
| LjL | but give you slightly different sets of graphs/data | 03:01 |
| LjL | (i think) | 03:01 |
| de-facto | hmm havent looked at the first one yet | 03:02 |
| LjL | de-facto, it's literally the one you just linked to :P | 03:02 |
| LjL | and also that i linked to before! | 03:03 |
| ryouma | but you probably don't want noir 57y0 because it is VERY dark | 03:03 |
| de-facto | id maybe the first link is the description of the project and the second one the actual interface? | 03:03 |
| ryouma | but they have a color similar to uvex | 03:04 |
| de-facto | just a guess | 03:04 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, anyway for the record, i see no flickering at either 50%ish or 90%ish with the 240fps camera, but as we said, that just means i can't rule out anything | 03:05 |
| ryouma | this would be a mre normal color http://noirmedical.com/553.html | 03:05 |
| tinwhiskers | mmm | 03:05 |
| de-facto | testing is much easier: move a finger quickly in front of a white area, if you see a stroboscope effect "multiple fingers" its pulsed | 03:05 |
| ryouma | i think that is called the pencil test | 03:06 |
| de-facto | yeah would make sense to call it like that | 03:06 |
| tinwhiskers | hrm. not sure how well that will work at *really fast* PWM speeds though. | 03:06 |
| LjL | oh | 03:06 |
| de-facto | yeah of course if its MHz it wont work | 03:07 |
| ryouma | the 553 might still be too dark but it would be something to try | 03:07 |
| LjL | well, "pencil test" succeeds | 03:07 |
| LjL | i do not see multiple pencils | 03:07 |
| LjL | no matter what the backlight level | 03:07 |
| ryouma | great | 03:07 |
| de-facto | so its not pulsed on a timescale you are able to resolve like that | 03:08 |
| de-facto | hence it is not pulsed for your eyes | 03:08 |
| tinwhiskers | true, so if it is PWM its fast enough that it won't be responsible for the light sensitivity thing | 03:08 |
| ryouma | well maybe | 03:08 |
| ryouma | i would not rule anything out. but it should be a good thing regardless. | 03:09 |
| de-facto | btw my TV is pulsed with 800Hz and i dont have any problem with that, i only notice on pencil test | 03:09 |
| ryouma | 800 is pretty low | 03:09 |
| euod[m] | <tinwhiskers "hrm. not sure how well that will"> it doesn't really, I'm not able to see the effect even at 144hz. | 03:09 |
| de-facto | backlight pulsed not lcd refresh rate though | 03:10 |
| LjL | anyway, notebookcheck are a decent site. i think if they found no evidence of PWM, there's a decent reason to suspect no PWM | 03:10 |
| Docscr | LjL: again, you usually won't see any flicker on LED driver driven LEDs as the driver is a boost (or sometimes buck) constant current converter basically. The LED current is not very much modulated at all | 03:11 |
| euod[m] | that might not be true, the refresh rate is different to the- right. | 03:11 |
| ryouma | btw if you go to glarminy you will get an idea of darkness you want maybe. the ones i have recommended are all kind of dark and colored for normal people. | 03:11 |
| de-facto | sometimes they combine those for "hiding" transition "smearing" on lcd refresh | 03:11 |
| LjL | Docscr, i don't know, why are people so fussed about PWM backlights then? | 03:11 |
| LjL | and why would notebookcheck include a test for it? | 03:12 |
| euod[m] | <Docscr "LjL: again, you usually won't se"> lots of the really cheap ones are capacitive droppers without smoothing, it's actually hell to find ones that don't flicker in north america. | 03:12 |
| ryouma | yes refresh rate is orthogonal and not an issue | 03:12 |
| ryouma | and past few years have had much les pwm in backlights | 03:12 |
| tinwhiskers | on a different topic, isn't there someone who comes here who is involved in healthcare? | 03:12 |
| de-facto | it may be nasty on filming cameras, because then there could be a interference between backlight flickering and camera CCD scanning times | 03:12 |
| Docscr | euod[m]: are you talking about mains powered LED lamps? | 03:13 |
| euod[m] | I made the assumption that the backlight in this screen pulsed once per frame change, but it turns out that's configurable. | 03:13 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, we've had a doctor or two sometimes but they haven't really shown up again... | 03:13 |
| tinwhiskers | hrm. OK | 03:13 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: "I’m a contact tracer in North Dakota. The virus is so rampant that we gave up" (10108 votes) | https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/11/18/north-dakota-contact-tracing-stopped/ | https://redd.it/jwm3r5 | 03:13 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, of course it's entirely possible some are incognito, but then they would not answer you :P | 03:13 |
| euod[m] | Docscr: yeah I thought that's what was commented on, but never mind. | 03:13 |
| de-facto | yeah i think one day there was that doc linking to the italian report with the hospitalization times and stats | 03:13 |
| tinwhiskers | I wonder if there is anyone here involved in administration/nursing... Anyone? | 03:14 |
| tinwhiskers | (it's not related to covid, btw) | 03:14 |
| LjL | uhm | 03:14 |
| LjL | even Pici left :( | 03:14 |
| LjL | uh-oh, here's some lack of net neutrality! https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https://www.punto-informatico.it/didattica-distanza-lezioni-non-consumano-giga/ | 03:15 |
| euod[m] | I'm not really surprised, the whole internet is flooded with misinformation about it, it's hard to deal with | 03:15 |
| de-facto | dangit i wanted to look at the paper from that inactivated vaccine, it looks really interesting but now i am too tired | 03:15 |
| euod[m] | I was watching like, a video about a cessna and someone suffering from oxygen issues while flying. suddenly all the comments are about how this is why it's reckless to be wearing a mask!? | 03:16 |
| de-facto | the CoronaVac from China, its a new type we havent seen data about yet afaik | 03:16 |
| tinwhiskers | euod[m]: lol | 03:16 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30843-4/fulltext | 03:16 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.thelancet.com: Safety, tolerability, and immunogenicity of an inactivated SARS-CoV-2 vaccine in healthy adults aged 18–59 years: a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled, phase 1/2 clinical trial - The Lancet [...] | 03:16 |
| euod[m] | dude flying the plane was high enough on oxygen deprivation that he didn't notice until another plane flew wingtip to wingtip with him and screamed "OXYGEN OXYGEN OXYGEN" onto the guard radio. | 03:17 |
| euod[m] | if you can get that high wearing a surgical mask, I can see why people would want to get into medicine. | 03:18 |
| LjL | err | 03:18 |
| LjL | oxygen masks don't deprive you of oxygen, but i assume you're joking :P | 03:18 |
| LjL | surgical* masks | 03:18 |
| euod[m] | of course, but that's the claims of the people commenting on the video. | 03:19 |
| jacklsw | the air you breathe out, still have a big percentage of oxygen | 03:19 |
| jacklsw | >.< | 03:19 |
| euod[m] | yeah, the "pain" you feel when you hold your breath is due to CO2, not a lack of oxygen. | 03:19 |
| euod[m] | there is simply no feeling of having not enough oxygen, which is why a lot of heavy gasses are dangerous, and why the pilot of the cessna didn't even know he was impacted. | 03:20 |
| LjL | if only i could take away the CO2... | 03:20 |
| LjL | euod[m], i don't know if it's the same incident, but i do have a "funny" one i can link you to | 03:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): WuXi Biologics CEO expects approval for Covid-19 antibody treatment 'late this year or early next year' → https://is.gd/XH1kSO | 03:21 |
| euod[m] | I quite like listening to ATC recordings, they're usually remarkably calm even in the face of disaster. | 03:21 |
| LjL | euod[m], https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IqWal_EmBg | 03:22 |
| euod[m] | "the propeller fell off our plane" "affirm, do you want to divert?" | 03:22 |
| euod[m] | literally. | 03:22 |
| euod[m] | LjL: I'd seen that before I think. the scary thing is how long, even with an oxygen mask, it takes for you to recover. | 03:23 |
| LjL | euod[m], the one you were talking about is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyFVeLySv6M i bet? | 03:24 |
| euod[m] | LjL: yes, literally that video. | 03:24 |
| LjL | euod[m], sometimes ATC recordings are scary too, though. chains of misunderstanding, slurred english at lightspeed, foreign pilots not being accounted for... | 03:25 |
| LjL | also what is wrong with americans and their inability to say "mayday mayday mayday"? | 03:25 |
| LjL | "uuuuh yes approach, at this point, yeah, we'd like to declare" | 03:25 |
| euod[m] | the chinese pilots that have never needed to speak english other than with ATC are scary as hell. | 03:25 |
| LjL | "are you declaring an emergency?" | 03:25 |
| LjL | "uuuuh yeap" | 03:25 |
| euod[m] | pride, maybe? | 03:26 |
| LjL | euod[m], i'll give you some scary as hell russian ATC too | 03:26 |
| LjL | euod[m], btw, in the video i linked, i know it's not *really* funny (but hey he survived), but "unable to maintain altitude, unable to maintain heading, unable to maintain airspeed, but other than that, a-ok!" is just great | 03:26 |
| euod[m] | LjL: scarier to me is quebec ATC, controlling airplanes in not quite french. | 03:27 |
| LjL | lol | 03:27 |
| LjL | euod[m], https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lICb8p9SvvM | 03:30 |
| LjL | took me a while to make sure it was the right one | 03:30 |
| LjL | it gets worse before it gets better | 03:30 |
| LjL | euod[m], i think i probably saw the same thing with different subtitles (or i missed it this time?), at some point a russian plane said to ATC, in russian, something like "leave him alone! he has an emergency! stop bothering him!" | 03:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Cancel Thanksgiving, stay home, wear a mask — State and city leaders impose targeted coronavirus restrictions to curb Covid without tanking economy → https://is.gd/1N8nRQ | 03:34 |
| LjL | "uuuuuh swiss 1311, you... catch... bird?!" | 03:34 |
| LjL | de-facto, so from china we have Sinopharm, Sinovac, and CoronaVac, those are three separate things is what i understand? or is CoronaVac the one by Sinopharm? | 03:36 |
| euod[m] | .. damn that's hard to listen to, even with subtitles | 03:36 |
| LjL | euod[m], the swiss pilots have an accent, but the russian ATC just doesn't have the basic english they should have as a requirement. you cannot NOT understand "bird strike" if you're ATC | 03:37 |
| de-facto | thats a good question, i think Sinovac makes CoraVac, then there is one from Bejing Institude of BioProducts (Sinopharm) and one from Wuhan Institude o BioProducts (Sunopharm) | 03:38 |
| LjL | Sinopharm vs Sunopharm?! | 03:39 |
| de-facto | actually i am not quite sure about the difference between those two Sinopharm ones | 03:39 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm not sure which name is which but I thought there were three vaccines coming out of China | 03:39 |
| de-facto | nope that was a typo there is only Sinopharm | 03:39 |
| de-facto | maybe they produce it and the Institutes develop them? | 03:40 |
| de-facto | something like Oxford and AstraZeneca or such? | 03:40 |
| LjL | de-facto, oh iirc the Sinopharm one tested in Brazil had a different adjuvant from the other one | 03:40 |
| LjL | alum vs something else | 03:40 |
| de-facto | i think the one that was temporarily halted in Brazil was CoraVac from Sinuvac | 03:41 |
| de-facto | Sinovac | 03:41 |
| de-facto | damn i cant type | 03:41 |
| jacklsw | sino - china | 03:41 |
| de-facto | yep | 03:41 |
| LjL | jacklsw, yes i realize that much :P | 03:41 |
| jacklsw | xD | 03:42 |
| tinwhiskers | CanSino Biologics, West China Hospital of Sichuan, Sinopharm, Sinovac - four Chinese Vaccines? | 03:43 |
| de-facto | so the Wuhan Institute of BioProducts (Sinopharm) + Chinese Academy of Sciences tested in UAE and Morocco, while the Beijing Institute of BioProducts (Sinopharm) + Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention tested in UAE and Argentina | 03:43 |
| de-facto | yeah they are listed on https://covidvax.org/ | 03:44 |
| de-facto | %title | 03:44 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From covidvax.org: COVID-19 Vaccines: The updated list | 03:44 |
| LjL | my mind is shutting down... but on covidvax, *click* on each vaccine | 03:44 |
| LjL | because if you just look at the list, it makes naming confusing | 03:44 |
| de-facto | indeed | 03:44 |
| LjL | they sometimes give the name and sometimes the type in the same column | 03:44 |
| LjL | but they clarify it on the vaccine's own page | 03:45 |
| LjL | i think i really should get covidvax's data into Brainstorm | 03:45 |
| LjL | but gah, scraping | 03:45 |
| de-facto | yeah you would need a DOM parser for that | 03:47 |
| LjL | or i could make a lot of ad-hoc regexps :P | 03:48 |
| LjL | but either way... | 03:48 |
| de-facto | yeah i tried that once its a pain, rather use a fault tolerant DOM parser, its much more stable | 03:52 |
| tinwhiskers | LjL: what are you planning to do with the info? | 03:53 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, just something like "%vaccines sinopharm" and it tells you in a compact format... it would help in cases like right now where we all had a bit of a confusion which vaccine was which, called what, and using what | 03:54 |
| de-facto | this here is quite interesting, showing the most recent info about possible progressions in timescales regarding distributions: https://covidvax.org/covid19-vaccines-distribution | 03:57 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 03:57 |
| de-facto | looks like BioNTech + Pfizer might deploy 50M doses still this year | 03:58 |
| tinwhiskers | combined 151 million doses by the end of the year | 03:58 |
| de-facto | about the other ones i havent read so much, Novavax 100M doses and Inovio 1M odses | 03:58 |
| LjL | oh that must be new | 03:58 |
| LjL | i didn't spot it last time | 03:58 |
| LjL | they probably added it after the recent press releases, i guess | 03:59 |
| LjL | i don't like that they're all Q*4* 2021 for mass distribution :( | 04:00 |
| LjL | i was hoping... perhaps... kinda earlier 2021 | 04:00 |
| tinwhiskers | That's for a combined 4 billion doses though | 04:00 |
| LjL | yeah i realize miracles aren't a thing | 04:00 |
| LjL | despite the strange argentinian man in rome and his crew | 04:01 |
| de-facto | according to worldometers we currently have 7,826,389,865+ humans on earth | 04:01 |
| LjL | that sounds consistent with what i recall | 04:01 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah, I really wish we would could *somehow* get more manufacturing capability going though | 04:02 |
| de-facto | around 72M population growth each yearh | 04:02 |
| LjL | de-facto, practically a new Germany every year | 04:02 |
| de-facto | yeah | 04:02 |
| LjL | unsettling | 04:02 |
| tinwhiskers | Of course we do have a number of other vaccine producers that haven't made any production forecasts so it *might* be more than that | 04:03 |
| tinwhiskers | or it might be less :-/ | 04:03 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, but we could also have some whose phase 3 trials fail miserably | 04:03 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 04:03 |
| LjL | not everyone is Moderna, Pfizer et co | 04:03 |
| LjL | i think Fauci called himself surprised about the >90% efficacy figures and he was guessing 70%-75% | 04:04 |
| LjL | but the bigger question is how long does it last, anyway | 04:04 |
| LjL | if Moderna's vaccine gives a very high level of immunity, it may last longer than others | 04:04 |
| LjL | and if we need to produce 8 billion doses of vaccines *every six months* that wouldn't be ideal | 04:05 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah, we really need to ramp up production capability imo | 04:05 |
| LjL | but i hope immunity lasts a longer time | 04:06 |
| LjL | but you're right, hope for the best expect the worst | 04:06 |
| LjL | %yt forever young | 04:06 |
| tinwhiskers | Well, Derek Lowe sounded pretty positive on that | 04:06 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i like that you call him Derek Lowe | 04:06 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, failed to get any hits! | 04:06 |
| LjL | i secretly get annoyed when people call him "Derek" like he's their best friend or something :P | 04:06 |
| tinwhiskers | erm... Did I get his name wrong? | 04:06 |
| tinwhiskers | ah | 04:06 |
| de-facto | i still think its essential to reach as many people with vaccinations in a period as short (and soon) as possible because of the spread of phylogenetic tree (that might accelerate under the new immunologic pressure from partly vaccinated populations) | 04:06 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah, and hence we need massively befed up production capabilities | 04:07 |
| tinwhiskers | *beefed | 04:07 |
| LjL | maybe we can grow our own mRNA. i have a balcony and some jars. | 04:07 |
| tinwhiskers | If one company can produce a billion doses in a year, we should have 20 or so doing that. | 04:07 |
| tinwhiskers | heh | 04:07 |
| tinwhiskers | you actually probably could | 04:08 |
| de-facto | its like a fire, we need to extinguish it everywhere at the same time otherwise it just might burn again | 04:08 |
| LjL | well i mean, i do produce a lot of it, every day | 04:08 |
| LjL | just, in my body, i don't control it much | 04:08 |
| tinwhiskers | it would be pretty time consuming doing it the manual way though :-) | 04:08 |
| tinwhiskers | It's a chemical process. You can do it. | 04:08 |
| LjL | de-facto, honestly, that won't happen | 04:08 |
| de-facto | yet its possible and should happen | 04:08 |
| LjL | yeeeaah | 04:09 |
| LjL | but it won't | 04:09 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 04:09 |
| de-facto | then we will find out what happens when playing with the fire | 04:09 |
| LjL | i think Moderna has already announced that they'll prioritize the US | 04:09 |
| tinwhiskers | bastards | 04:09 |
| LjL | which is fair since they got a TON of dollars from the US | 04:09 |
| LjL | well it's basically funded by the US government | 04:09 |
| tinwhiskers | bastards | 04:09 |
| LjL | i mean... | 04:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Empty desks: Coronavirus robs US classrooms of teachers → https://is.gd/q0r2WD | 04:10 |
| LjL | if your country is starving, and other countries are also starving, and you figure out how to make food, will you distribute it equally among all countries, without prioritizing, as the country's hypothetical leader? | 04:10 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm not serious :-) | 04:11 |
| de-facto | also those countries that participated in the trials may have good connections... together with those sponsoring the startups etc | 04:11 |
| tinwhiskers | But that is another reason why other countries should be able to produce it as well | 04:11 |
| xsperry | LjL, poor comparison, starvation isn't infectious. this all originated from a single country | 04:12 |
| LjL | xsperry, why does where it originated matter? | 04:12 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i'm kinda serious... i'm not actually sure what the "right" answer to that question is | 04:13 |
| de-facto | that might be one advantage from those inactivated vaccines (produced the classic way), they might just produce the virus in bioreactors that already are present in many counties hence production might be distributed on many shoulders | 04:13 |
| de-facto | on the other hand those mRNA productions also might scale pretty well since only such super small doses are required | 04:14 |
| tinwhiskers | Well, there's thousands of labs that can produce oligonucleotides for mRNA. | 04:14 |
| tinwhiskers | but not on the scales required | 04:14 |
| LjL | de-facto, i'd just be wary of any attenuated vaccine. i don't remember if there's any in the works (maybe in India?) | 04:14 |
| tinwhiskers | and there's some other stuff involved to make it useful as a vaccine | 04:14 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, glass vials :P | 04:14 |
| LjL | and huge freeeezers | 04:15 |
| tombradyontap[m] | fun fact: the vacine being developed by Pfizer & Moderna dont claim to stop or slow the spread of the virus. it is being designed to ONLY reduce the symptoms | 04:15 |
| de-facto | inactivated vaccines with beta-Propiolactone | 04:15 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], that doesn't mean it won't do it, though. we just don't know yet | 04:15 |
| de-facto | cite from https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30843-4/fulltext | 04:15 |
| xsperry | LjL, a single unvaccinated country can reinfect entire world again in the future | 04:15 |
| de-facto | "CoronaVac is an inactivated vaccine candidate against COVID-19, created from African green monkey kidney cells (Vero cells) that have been inoculated with SARS-CoV-2 (CN02 strain). At the end of the incubation period, the virus was harvested, inactivated with β-propiolactone, concentrated, purified, and finally absorbed onto aluminium hydroxide" | 04:15 |
| LjL | xsperry, that will be possible anyway. at this point, the virus is probably in MANY mammals (not just mink), and there will be periodic spill-backs. it's unavoidable now | 04:16 |
| de-facto | "The aluminium hydroxide complex was then diluted in a sodium chloride, phosphate-buffered saline, and water solution before being sterilised and filtered ready for injection. The placebo is just the aluminium hydroxide diluent solution with no virus." | 04:16 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <LjL "tombradyontap, that doesn't mean"> wrong. it means the vacine wont stop the lockdowns | 04:16 |
| tinwhiskers | smh | 04:17 |
| de-facto | well the virus was present somewhere before too | 04:17 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], uh. i'm not "wrong". you changed the goalpost, that's your choice, but it doesn't make me "wrong". | 04:17 |
| de-facto | it came from somewhere infecting that patient zero, the probability of that happening might have raised though with many more places now | 04:17 |
| LjL | de-facto, yes but probably just in bats, maybe other animals, but now it's got to people, people will infect animals they live close to | 04:17 |
| de-facto | yeah | 04:17 |
| de-facto | the domesticated animals should be vaccinated too once all humans got vaccinated i guess | 04:18 |
| LjL | let's be real, there's probably a lot of house cats with COVID antibodies now | 04:18 |
| LjL | and i don't for a moment believe that the "cat version" cannot spill back to humans | 04:18 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <tombradyontap[m] "wrong. it means the vacine wont "> theres a comet coming from space. its' trajectory suggests it will land in mexico. other dude: that doesnt mean it cant land in brazil tho right!? | 04:18 |
| de-facto | afaik cats have asymptomatic progressions | 04:18 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], you are making no sense | 04:19 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], those vaccine only aim to stop the disease because they don't know whether our antibodies give us sterile immunity to this disease | 04:19 |
| LjL | IF they give us sterile immunity, then it will also stop spread | 04:19 |
| LjL | it they don't, then it won't | 04:19 |
| LjL | most likely that will depend on whether there is effective protection of the upper respiratory tract | 04:19 |
| LjL | the Moderna vaccine appears promising in that respect | 04:20 |
| LjL | these companies won't make promises they don't know they can keep (and that's a good thing) | 04:20 |
| tombradyontap[m] | the vacine by their own admission will so NOTHING to prevent the spread. its like taking cough drops for your respiratory infection | 04:20 |
| LjL | but it's completely likely that a vaccine will prevent spread | 04:20 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], no | 04:20 |
| LjL | cite their "admission" | 04:20 |
| LjL | post a link now or go away | 04:20 |
| LjL | and it has to say that they know it WILL do nothing. not that they DON'T know or that they are not able to GUARANTEE it | 04:21 |
| LjL | because that would be entirely different things | 04:21 |
| tombradyontap[m] | sure will, and then when i prove you wrong will you promise not to take it? | 04:21 |
| LjL | not to take... the vaccine? | 04:21 |
| tombradyontap[m] | yes | 04:21 |
| LjL | are you insane? | 04:21 |
| tombradyontap[m] | dont do it bro | 04:21 |
| tombradyontap[m] | unless you like cancer and tumors | 04:22 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], i appreciate your concern, however this place isn't some anti-vax think-tank. we believe and hope that vaccine will help the situation. you are now quieted because you are saying utter nonsense. maybe just lurk for a day and then you will be saying less nonsense when i unquiet you. | 04:23 |
| tinwhiskers | ummm... that sort of antivaxer rhetoric is harmful to people. | 04:23 |
| de-facto | tombradyontap[m], afaik they talk about the Moderna vaccines ability to prevent upper respiratory tract replication (hence suppressing infectiousness status) on here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpqfdr9FPWM&t=1870 | 04:23 |
| de-facto | %title | 04:23 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.youtube.com: Lecture 10: "Vaccines" - YouTube | 04:23 |
| tinwhiskers | it is as yet not established what percentage of people in the phase 3 trials may have had asymptomatic covid since they only tested people who had symptoms to arrive at the 95% effectiveness rating. That does not mean it does not prevent people from getting asymptomatic covid, just that we don't know how well it works in that regard yet. Major logic fail to conclude it doesn't do anything. | 04:25 |
| de-facto | also very much recommended read about vaccines efficiency and expectations it the latest post on Derek Lowes blog: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/11/18/vaccine-possibilities | 04:26 |
| de-facto | %title | 04:26 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From blogs.sciencemag.org: Vaccine Possibilities | In the Pipeline | 04:26 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, what?! they didn't just routinely PCR test every participant? | 04:26 |
| tinwhiskers | no | 04:26 |
| LjL | oh good grief | 04:26 |
| LjL | are they stupid, or very clever? | 04:26 |
| tinwhiskers | mmm | 04:26 |
| LjL | i agree of course there is no reason to believe it doesn't do anything | 04:27 |
| LjL | but i can't think for the life of me why they didn't routinely take swabs from everyone | 04:27 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah, I realise you're not mentally deficient. | 04:27 |
| LjL | surely that would not be the primary cost of the trial | 04:27 |
| tinwhiskers | lol | 04:27 |
| tinwhiskers | right | 04:27 |
| tinwhiskers | (sorry I was just laughing at my own comment) | 04:28 |
| LjL | :P | 04:28 |
| LjL | (thanks!) | 04:28 |
| de-facto | short version: we dont know for sure if current first generation vaccines are able to prevent spread (by asymptomatic carriers) or only severe disease progressions, but hopes are high that even the current generation already might be able to stop the pandemic by significantly dampen the reproduction number R0 < 1 hence induce a fizzling out of the pathogen spread | 04:28 |
| LjL | (although my mind is actually a bit blurry because of reasons :\) | 04:28 |
| LjL | since you're arguing this... do you want me to unquiet them and hear their side? | 04:29 |
| LjL | i can do that | 04:29 |
| de-facto | yes why not | 04:31 |
| LjL-Matrix | tombradyontap: wild and free you go | 04:32 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <LjL-Matrix "tombradyontap: wild and free you"> ty | 04:32 |
| tombradyontap[m] | i must say. rule #1 is the importance of free speech for civic discourse. to silence an individual because you dont agree is a massive infringement | 04:33 |
| tinwhiskers | if you're spreading harmful antivax bullshit the best thing is to silence you. You'd better start making more sense than you have so far. | 04:34 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <de-facto "short version: we dont know for "> "high hopes" isnt good enough when hunan life is involved. | 04:34 |
| de-facto | well there never will be certainty, we all have to do our best to work together on this | 04:35 |
| tinwhiskers | if you have some evidence for it causing cancer and tumours go for it. | 04:35 |
| de-facto | there is only one way to find out if that works: in reality by exposing vaccinated people to real life conditions and study the effect from the vaccines | 04:35 |
| tinwhiskers | if you're just speculating to the detriment of what the evidence actually shows as safe so far then that's not at all welcome. | 04:36 |
| tombradyontap[m] | hpv vacine has led to huge increase in cervical cancer btw | 04:36 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <de-facto "there is only one way to find ou"> nuremburg code. do not experiment on unwilling participants | 04:36 |
| tombradyontap[m] | https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/10/29/dr-fauci-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-infections-dr-mallika-marshall/ | 04:37 |
| de-facto | but yeah more testing during the phase III trials (e.g. giving everyone routinely a test) would have been preferable to actually have hard numbers on such "high hopes" originating from lab data and animal trials afaik | 04:37 |
| tinwhiskers | hpv vacine has led to huge increase in cervical cancer btw - WTF?! | 04:37 |
| tombradyontap[m] | do you need a source tin? k hold on | 04:37 |
| tinwhiskers | this should be good... | 04:37 |
| de-facto | tombradyontap[m], i am not talking about severe side effects or longterm effects, i am talking about if the current first generation vaccines will have the capability of preventing initial viral replication on the upper respiratory tract, hence be able to prevent the vaccinated people from becoming infectious once challenged with the wild type pathogen in real life situations | 04:38 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], you misunderstand free speech. you have no right to freedom of speech in the specific room that i run. that right isn't given to you by your country's constitution, but even if it were, i probably do not operate this room from your country's jurisdiction. this is a private setting where i have the ability to decide who can participate. that doesn't mean i don't take the issue of free speech at heart, but it simply is not what you are | 04:38 |
| LjL | claiming. | 04:38 |
| tinwhiskers | https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2020/hpv-vaccine-prevents-cervical-cancer-sweden-study | 04:39 |
| tinwhiskers | https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2020-09/ki-hve092820.php | 04:39 |
| tinwhiskers | https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2020/hpv-vaccine-prevents-cervical-cancer-sweden-study | 04:39 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. oops | 04:39 |
| LjL | i can't "infringe" on a right you don't have. your freedom of speech doesn't entail my duty to give you a platform for it. | 04:39 |
| tinwhiskers | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29778520/ - 69% lower incidence of cervical cancer | 04:40 |
| de-facto | btw every vaccine is different, just saying | 04:41 |
| tinwhiskers | I mean the HPV vaccine is specifically given to reduce cervical cancer incidence. You're claiming it does the opposite? | 04:41 |
| de-facto | lets try to focus on the ones that might be able to solve the pandemic problem we are facing right now | 04:41 |
| tinwhiskers | that is a giant load of puckey | 04:41 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, there is more and more evidence i see whenever i glance at ##science or elsewhere with scientific/medical articles that many cancers are caused or triggered or eased by viruses, often viruses that most of the population has. in most cases, having the virus doesn't give you the cancer, but sometimes, in ALL cases you get the cancer, you DO have the virus. so this is certainly a very pressing point for developing vaccines against those viruses. | 04:41 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <LjL "tombradyontap, you misunderstand"> informed consent requires knowledge of the issue at hand. you can have consent without being informed | 04:43 |
| de-facto | i heard something like HPV vaccines only work when the receiver not already got exposed to the wild type virus, but its offtopic anyhow | 04:43 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], what does that have to do with anything i said? i don't follow. | 04:43 |
| tinwhiskers | agreed. | 04:43 |
| de-facto | can we talk about SARS-CoV-2 vaccines please? | 04:43 |
| LjL | de-facto, to be fair, i spent most of the evening talking about screen brightness | 04:43 |
| LjL | i'll just be silent | 04:44 |
| LjL | i wanted to watch a movie anyway, although now it's late :( | 04:44 |
| tinwhiskers | what movie? | 04:44 |
| tinwhiskers | oh | 04:44 |
| tombradyontap[m] | ok back on topic sorry i respect your room, i really do | 04:44 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, Captain Fantastic | 04:44 |
| LjL | well i started it yesterday | 04:44 |
| tinwhiskers | hrm | 04:44 |
| LjL | it seems good | 04:44 |
| de-facto | yeah but i thought we wanted to talk about possible questions in regards to the current COVID-19 vaccines, this is quite relevent in the not so distant future | 04:44 |
| LjL | don't be swayed by the title | 04:44 |
| tinwhiskers | Any good so far? | 04:45 |
| LjL | yes de-facto but when someone says things that are incorrect, or, worse, that don't logically follow, i always feel a very pressing need to set the record straight | 04:45 |
| tinwhiskers | or even worse, harmful to the world putting this thing behind us. | 04:46 |
| de-facto | yes of course, i just wanted to try to focus back on the original discussion | 04:46 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, yes i like it. you may like it too given your penchant for, like, going to remote islands and seeing how you can survive. it's (so far) about a father who lives with a few children in the wilderness and teaches them, uh, to hunt deer, and Marxism | 04:46 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. interesting. | 04:46 |
| tinwhiskers | I'll see if I have access to it... | 04:46 |
| LjL | *cough* | 04:46 |
| tinwhiskers | Oh yes, I do. | 04:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add "Vaccine possibilties" Derek Lowe article → https://is.gd/GqOA7a | 04:47 |
| tinwhiskers | Oh, no, I don't download movies. I get them from in town. It's available there. I'll give it a whirl. | 04:47 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm going in to town tomorrow and need to get a few missing episode of Foyles War anyway. | 04:48 |
| LjL | i think i'll watch a bit of it now before going to bed, and unwind from the channel frenzy, there was quite a bit of multitasking in here tonight. and that way i won't need to set the record straight so often and de-facto can more easily prove tombradyontap[m] wrong :P | 04:48 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah, I just totally missed what happened in the last episode of Longmire and 12 Monkeys I was watching while this was going on. | 04:49 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <LjL "i think i'll watch a bit of it n"> i stand uncorrected dear sir | 04:49 |
| de-facto | i dont want to prove anyone wrong, i just want to discuss positions | 04:49 |
| de-facto | tombradyontap[m], ok so with what claim do you think that you stand uncorrected? | 04:50 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <de-facto "i dont want to prove anyone wron"> good on you sir! im open minded ad well. | 04:50 |
| tinwhiskers | oh, good grief. | 04:50 |
| tombradyontap[m] | lol | 04:50 |
| tombradyontap[m] | *tom brady goes to play football | 04:51 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, don't get mad, sometimes it's good to refresh our dialectics | 04:51 |
| tinwhiskers | Oh, I'm not mad. I just don't care to see more nonsense of that sort. | 04:51 |
| tombradyontap[m] | ohhh | 04:51 |
| tombradyontap[m] | now it makes sense, im talking to AI bots huh | 04:51 |
| de-facto | tombradyontap[m], can you please repeat your points once again, the discussion made them blur away | 04:52 |
| tombradyontap[m] | marco... | 04:52 |
| de-facto | dang i dont like that feature about matrix requiring a browser to read long messages | 04:54 |
| LjL | i know | 04:55 |
| LjL | my points: | 04:55 |
| LjL | - vacine will do little to nothing to slow or prevent tbe spead | 04:55 |
| LjL | - the vacine will not lift the lockdowns, aka you wont return to normal | 04:55 |
| LjL | -the vacine will be largest public unconsented trial in world history | 04:55 |
| LjL | - the vacine will damage human health | 04:55 |
| tombradyontap[m] | some things are worth the wait! | 04:55 |
| de-facto | thanks for repeating | 04:55 |
| tombradyontap[m] | adhominem | 04:56 |
| tombradyontap[m] | nice try | 04:56 |
| de-facto | so 1) vacine will do little to nothing to slow or prevent tbe spead <-- thats exactly the issue i was talking about before, its a good question and should be investigated further with constant screening during the trials, but from the lab data (antibody levels) it looks promising that we can have hopes that even current gen vaccines will be able to do that | 04:57 |
| de-facto | again the links | 04:57 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpqfdr9FPWM&t=1870 | 04:57 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.youtube.com: Lecture 10: "Vaccines" - YouTube | 04:57 |
| de-facto | MIT Department of Biology The tenth lecture in the COVID-19, SARS-CoV-2 and the Pandemic Series, presented by the MIT Department of Biology. Kizzmekia Corbett of the National Institutes of Health gave a talk titled "Vaccines." | 04:57 |
| de-facto | Derek Lowes blog: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/11/18/vaccine-possibilities | 04:58 |
| de-facto | 2) the vacine will not lift the lockdowns, aka you wont return to normal <-- yeah of course the vaccines will not instantly solve the problem, they are more like a longterm solution so we will need non-pharmaceutical measures for quite some time indeed | 04:59 |
| de-facto | hence concepts that assume to co-exist with the virus for some time will be required | 05:00 |
| de-facto | ideally we would be able to vaccinate everyone at once to solve it as quick as possible, but still that seems unrealistic for now unfortunately | 05:00 |
| jacklsw | then people will call the doubters anti-vaxxers | 05:00 |
| jacklsw | @.@ | 05:00 |
| de-facto | (that would be ideal also for the reasons i mentioned before like spread of phylogentic tree and escape mutations etc9 | 05:01 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <jacklsw "then people will call the doubte"> yup they always resort to antivax accusation | 05:01 |
| de-facto | 3) the vacine will be largest public unconsented trial in world history <-- yes we simply dont have the time to wait for 10 years with this, we just can try to to our best to ensure that benefits from vaccinations outway the risks, and we can do that in shorter time than usual when doing in parallel what normally was done in a sequence | 05:04 |
| de-facto | but your point stands, of course studies will have to continue once the vaccinations started on large scale and they will do that of course | 05:04 |
| tombradyontap[m] | wanna know what will happen? same thing that happened here: | 05:05 |
| tombradyontap[m] | https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/14/cutter-polio-vaccine-paralyzed-children-coronavirus/ | 05:05 |
| de-facto | we will see some very very rare side effects just because vaccination will be done on such a large scale | 05:05 |
| de-facto | no reason to believe that | 05:05 |
| de-facto | it has absolutely nothing to do with SARS-CoV-2 vaccines | 05:05 |
| tombradyontap[m] | hastily and expeditiously put together will lead to massive injuries. if vaccines are so safe, why cant you sue the manufacturer if it injures you? | 05:07 |
| de-facto | 4) the vacine will damage human health <-- this is currently evaluated in the trials, some side effects occurred but only short term so far afaik, so thats what i meant with benefit outwaying risks: the impact on human health from vaccinations will be much less than from catching SARS-CoV-2 and having a potential severe COVID-19 progression | 05:07 |
| de-facto | there will be no guarantee, but a course to ensure the maximum of safety while still providing the maximum of benefit for everyone | 05:08 |
| de-facto | remember this is all a probabilistic problem, you always have to look at the big numbers | 05:09 |
| tombradyontap[m] | "That same day, licenses were hurriedly granted to several drug companies, including Cutter Laboratories, to make the vaccine" sound familiar? | 05:09 |
| de-facto | and currently there are 10k daily (!) deaths from SARS-CoV-2 infections | 05:10 |
| de-facto | so that has to stop | 05:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: India's drugmakers will be 'essential' in Covid-19 therapy production, says public health expert: India's generic drugmakers will have an "essential" role to play in manufacturing and distributing Covid-19 therapeutics to low- and middle-income countries. → https://is.gd/B5Eslz | 05:10 |
| tombradyontap[m] | which includes people who didnt die FROM covid but WITH it... big difference | 05:11 |
| tombradyontap[m] | https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/us-data/ | 05:13 |
| tombradyontap[m] | Following new CDC guidelines: "As of April 14, 2020, CDC case counts and death counts include both confirmed and probable cases and deaths" probable being the keyword. | 05:13 |
| tombradyontap[m] | when hospitals get $35,000 for each case they declare, it createas a great incentive to commit medical fraud | 05:14 |
| tombradyontap[m] | you cant even trust the #s or the data they provide and you think they have hour best health in mind? what a joke | 05:14 |
| de-facto | tombradyontap[m], so i tried to comment every of your points, 1) very unlikely stands, the vaccine WILL slow the spread 2) yeah but does not stand on longterm, since it will produce immunity 3) and 4) we know a way to ensure that benefit outways risks: carefully proceed and observe, exactly whats happening | 05:15 |
| de-facto | so with that i think none of those points stand since the questions arising from them are already addressed in the current strategy | 05:16 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <de-facto "tombradyontap, so i tried to com"> no. do not proceed with a method that will produce harm. first rule: do not harm the patient | 05:16 |
| de-facto | hence they dont to that, they ensure with their trials that they can exclude as much harm as possible | 05:17 |
| de-facto | have you noticed that some of the trials were stopped because of suspected side effects? | 05:17 |
| de-facto | they stopped and investigated those | 05:17 |
| de-facto | and only resumed once they could make sure they would not do harm | 05:17 |
| tombradyontap[m] | no, this is how they proceed | 05:19 |
| tombradyontap[m] | wanna know what will happen? same thing that happened here: | 05:19 |
| tombradyontap[m] | https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2020/04/14/cutter-polio-vaccine-paralyzed-children-coronavirus/ | 05:19 |
| de-facto | the whole idea is to find a way that has more benefits than risks, hence lift the burden of the current pandemic problem on the people | 05:20 |
| de-facto | why would that be a valid point? | 05:20 |
| de-facto | what is the connection fo that to SARS-CoV-2? | 05:20 |
| ryouma | tombradyontap[m]: cannot follow or type much but did you have a better idea? | 05:20 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], the Salk vaccine that your Washington Post refers to is still being used worldwide, especially in developing countries, and had basically succeeded in eradicating polio (not unfortunately with COVID, vaccination programs have stopped, and polio is coming back). being an attenuated vaccine, yes, it DOES give polio to an extremely small percentage of vaccinated children, but it's very easy to see that by a LARGE margin, it stops way, way | 05:21 |
| LjL | more polio than it causes | 05:21 |
| tombradyontap[m] | youre right, benefits do need to outweight risk. do you know what the risk is? the risk is 1 in 300,000 of dying if you're < 65 | 05:21 |
| ryouma | where do you lieve? | 05:21 |
| ryouma | i see talking points. i don't see your alternative solution yet? | 05:22 |
| tinwhiskers | the connection is "vaccines bad". Many attenuated viruses have a low risk of becoming harmful again but overall benefit FAR more people than they harm. You can't convince these antivax cultists with logic. The only solution is to deplatform them to minimise the harm they do. | 05:22 |
| tombradyontap[m] | yes, in that case getting polio ois horrible and life changing. covid is weak compared to polio by every metric | 05:22 |
| LjL | how is it that everyone doubting COVID is "real" or "important" or doubting vaccines always comes up with "... if you're less than 65", as if people older than 65 don't count? (which, by the way, will be the first to get the vaccine, after healthcare workers and similar) | 05:22 |
| de-facto | I know the exact risk for dying from a SARS-CoV-2 infection, its a perfect exponential of the age InfectionFatalityRatio(age) = 100% * Exp[ Log[2] * age / 5.75 years] / 1820 | 05:23 |
| de-facto | this means the risk doubles with every increase of 5.75 years in age | 05:23 |
| de-facto | the risk of a 85 year old is exactly the same as if playing Russian Roulette: 1/6 or 16% | 05:23 |
| de-facto | meaning from 6 infected 1 will not survive | 05:24 |
| tombradyontap[m] | yes, which by comparison is similar to every flu year! why is it important now and not before? | 05:24 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i partly agree, but i think that sometimes we need to engage with them again and refresh our points. i feel that you THINK it's important to deplatform them but in reality you just hate LISTENING to their seemingly inane points. and i hate it too. please don't leave just because i think it may be worthwhile to have a discussion and see where it leads us. de-facto wanted to talk to him, de-facto is... "de facto" an op in this channel, even | 05:24 |
| LjL | though he nominally isn't. i feel it's fair to allow him to have this discussion | 05:24 |
| LjL | no, it is NOT similar to every flu year | 05:25 |
| LjL | i won't allow THAT nonsense to be restated | 05:25 |
| LjL | look at the numbers | 05:25 |
| LjL | there are graphs and stuff in the room topic | 05:25 |
| LjL | i WILL NOT allow claims that the flu is just as bad, unless backed by real, reliable numbers. last time someone brought up numbers allegedly from CDC, i could quickly find actual CDC numbers that disagreed with those. | 05:26 |
| ryouma | tombradyontap[m]: my qyestions? | 05:26 |
| tombradyontap[m] | fair enough.. and i thank ljl for standing up when he doesnt even agree w/me. ty for that | 05:26 |
| LjL | i'm standing up for the right of people i consider reasonable to have a discussion if they want to | 05:27 |
| LjL | i still think you are, as they say, full of shit | 05:27 |
| de-facto | tombradyontap[m], its not similar to a flu actually that was compared here https://github.com/mbevand/covid19-age-stratified-ifr | 05:27 |
| LjL | and i don't know why i paused my movie, i have some compulsion | 05:27 |
| ryouma | pull to the stimulus | 05:28 |
| tombradyontap[m] | LjL, exactly & i thank you. i want to remind you that although it is very important to look at #s, the numbers by their own admission have been doctored to reflect dying WITH covid not FROM covid big difference | 05:28 |
| de-facto | its at least on order of magnitude (10-times !) more deadly than the average flu | 05:28 |
| LjL | i also want to stress that it hospitalizes *many more* people than the flu, and once hospital capacity is over, many of those who WOULD need to be hospitalized, just end up dying, making the IFR skyrocket compared to its baseline when the healthcare system is still working | 05:28 |
| ryouma | tombradyontap[m]: what is your solution? | 05:29 |
| tombradyontap[m] | we cant agree because we are looking at a different set of dafa | 05:29 |
| LjL | tombradyontap[m], no, they have not admitted that and they have not been "doctored". most people who died "with" COVID very simply would NOT have died at that time if they hadn't gotten COVID. COVID was the immediate cause of death, regardless of any other ailments they have. people who have diseases are people too, and you cannot discount their COVID-related death just because they had other pathologies. | 05:29 |
| tombradyontap[m] | to protect the elderly and immune compromised. and let the rest of us get back to life | 05:30 |
| LjL | that is an asinine idea that can't possibly work | 05:30 |
| LjL | especially in my country, but really, in any country | 05:30 |
| tombradyontap[m] | yes it can. were doing it right now. every segment of the pop is | 05:30 |
| LjL | we've all seen what happens in nursing homes: they take precautions, they manage to avoid an outbreak for a while, but then inevitably it happens anyway... and they all get COVID, and many of them die | 05:30 |
| LjL | we damned sure aren't | 05:31 |
| ryouma | i hear shielding and protect a lot, but i never hear proven things that protect | 05:31 |
| de-facto | the shielding of vulnerable groups does not work (obviously) | 05:31 |
| LjL | also, i live with my parents. tell me how exactly i should protect them outside of none of us ever going outside (which is your hated lockdown) | 05:31 |
| ryouma | ^ | 05:32 |
| ryouma | i guess i will not get any answers? | 05:32 |
| de-facto | the idea was nice but in practice it just becomes impossible once prevalence raised above a certain level the shielding is not effective enough and the pathogen diffuses into those high risk groups | 05:32 |
| de-facto | and keep in mind we are not talking about only a few people, we are talking about something like 25% of German population or even more | 05:33 |
| LjL | ryouma, highlight him | 05:33 |
| ryouma | nah | 05:33 |
| tombradyontap[m] | <LjL "also, i live with my parents. te"> its hard to say, but if you want to know the truth you shpuld move. if thats not an option, get your diet right, get in shape and get some sun | 05:33 |
| LjL | damn, had i known the truth | 05:34 |
| LjL | you are proposing things that are not feasible for much of an entire country | 05:34 |
| tombradyontap[m] | no one is talking about the importance of health, diet and wellbeing here | 05:34 |
| LjL | honestly, fuck you | 05:34 |
| tombradyontap[m] | everyone always wants an easy fix | 05:34 |
| LjL | oh we're definitely talking about the importance of health | 05:34 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i'm sorry, i'm a hypocrite for telling you to stay | 05:35 |
| tinwhiskers | So still sitting around R=1? | 06:10 |
| de-facto | in the best case scenario yeah, yet we need something like R<1 to really bring it down significantly | 06:11 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah. Any murmurings from the govt on changes to lockdown rules yet? | 06:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from This Week In Virology: TWiV 683: Two COVID-19 mRNA vaccines: On this episode of TWiV, mRNA vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer show over 90% efficacy, prothrombotic auto-antibodies in serum of COVID-19 patients, and the whereabouts of SARS-CoV-2 in the human body. → https://is.gd/FIqE9e | 06:11 |
| de-facto | all regions here are in "dark red" meaning no hope to control it with tracing at all | 06:11 |
| de-facto | more than 3 in 4 cases are of completely unknown origin (hence untraceable) | 06:11 |
| LjL | i don't know why Brainstorm is now only posting updates at strange times of the night | 06:12 |
| de-facto | we really need to come down to 5k daily new cases or such | 06:12 |
| tinwhiskers | Ah. that's an interesting classification system | 06:12 |
| de-facto | then *maybe* tracing could kick in again and wrestle it down, yet tbh i am skeptical becasue its not summer anymore | 06:12 |
| tinwhiskers | at what point do they consider it traceable? | 06:12 |
| de-facto | they are talking about weekly 50 new infections per 100k citizens | 06:13 |
| tinwhiskers | and what is it now per 100k? | 06:13 |
| de-facto | so we have ~83M citizens in Germany, hence 830 = 83M/100k so with current 22.6k daily new cases it would be 7*22.6k/830 = 190.6 = 3.81 * 50 | 06:16 |
| de-facto | so we should come down to 5929 ~ 50*830/7 daily new cases | 06:18 |
| de-facto | but yet again it will be more difficult in the winter, hence i have my doubts | 06:19 |
| de-facto | i dont think we will be able to go out of lockdowns in Europe until next spring or such | 06:19 |
| de-facto | maybe we can lift some containment, but we will need non-pharmaceutical measures in place in order to keep in under control until there are alternatives available and widespread such as vaccinations | 06:20 |
| de-facto | yet even if we would immediately start vaccinating everyone tomorrow, we would need to wait for a second dose (was it 4 weeks later?) and then after that the immunization might start to kick in | 06:21 |
| de-facto | so more than a month delay | 06:21 |
| de-facto | so this winter, no help from that, we need to control it with non-pharmaceutical measures | 06:22 |
| de-facto | there is hope from the vaccines of course those recent news are awesome, but impact is to be expected in long term hence next year | 06:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: ‘Tired to the bone’: US Hospitals overwhelmed with coronavirus cases → https://is.gd/MY4HfO | 06:24 |
| de-facto | all in all i think we are on the right way but we need to do more | 06:26 |
| spybert | de-facto: We might also have to resort to martial law or other stern measures in some areas to keep healthcare workers on the job. | 06:29 |
| tinwhiskers | I see | 06:30 |
| gigasu_shida | spybert: whwere's that article about the california nursing home debacle | 06:32 |
| spybert | gigasu_shida: At this point I haven't seen it hit the news, it is only being reported by the nurses rumor mill. I hope it isn't really true, but it probably is. | 06:35 |
| gigasu_shida | hmm well there are so many outbreaks at nursing homes now in california and everywhere | 06:35 |
| gigasu_shida | i mean, i personally know that because i talk to a lot of people | 06:35 |
| spybert | The Sacramento area seems to be hard hit now, with some facilities taken over by the state or closed. As to who staffs the facility when the "state" takes over I don't know. Public health workers, national guardsmen, one wonders. | 06:38 |
| ryouma | this has 2 meanings which do you mean --- 22:29 <spybert> de-facto: We might also have to resort to martial law or other stern measures in some areas to keep healthcare workers on the job. | 06:40 |
| ryouma | do you mean do lockdowns to improve hospitals | 06:40 |
| spybert | ryouma: If healthcare workers abandon theirpatients to die, one has to do something, right? | 06:41 |
| ryouma | i am deeply concerned about hcw | 06:41 |
| ryouma | but i didn't know what you meant | 06:41 |
| ryouma | i think jan 20 guy needs to spend all of his political capital now | 06:42 |
| ryouma | pull in all the favors | 06:42 |
| spybert | Something like martial law would involve quite a few favors :)) | 06:45 |
| spybert | It could be done on the local level too, depending on the appplicable state laws | 06:47 |
| ryouma | new rochelle was locked down by state militia i think. national guard probably. | 06:47 |
| tinwhiskers | martial law seems like the last thing Trump would want to do to maintain his support (for his upcoming TV show?) | 06:47 |
| tinwhiskers | unless it's done by the states themselves, I guess | 06:48 |
| tinwhiskers | I assume individual states can call in the the, err, home guard or whatever it's called there? | 06:49 |
| ryouma | i wasn't proposing martial law | 06:50 |
| ryouma | but govs need to do lockdown. all of them. | 06:50 |
| tinwhiskers | oh, no, I know you weren't. spybert was suggesting it may be necessary. | 06:50 |
| ryouma | there are various state military forces. some or all can also be nationalized. | 06:52 |
| ryouma | they are under control of govs | 06:52 |
| spybert | tinwhiskers: It is a ridiculous situation, but I don't know of any other legal ways the government(state, federal, or local) could get things under control | 06:52 |
| tinwhiskers | ok, so they can be called in by the state then? | 06:52 |
| ryouma | they HAVE BEEN in ny | 06:52 |
| tinwhiskers | oh, ok | 06:53 |
| tinwhiskers | by the state governor? | 06:53 |
| ryouma | yes | 06:53 |
| tinwhiskers | I see | 06:53 |
| ryouma | he took responsibility | 06:53 |
| tinwhiskers | thanks | 06:53 |
| tinwhiskers | and what do you call the branch of the armed forces that were called into NY? | 06:55 |
| ryouma | idk probably national guard | 06:55 |
| tinwhiskers | ok | 06:55 |
| ryouma | they were ny, not into ny | 06:55 |
| ryouma | they were always under cuomo | 06:55 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. ok | 06:55 |
| tinwhiskers | This was back in June? | 06:56 |
| ryouma | probably spring | 06:56 |
| ryouma | whenever nyc was bad | 06:56 |
| ryouma | new rochelle is a suburb | 06:56 |
| tinwhiskers | I don't really know when spring was... | 06:56 |
| jacklsw | after march? | 06:56 |
| ryouma | northern hemisphere :) | 06:56 |
| tinwhiskers | Is it? | 06:56 |
| tinwhiskers | Are you asking me? | 06:57 |
| ryouma | https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/nyregion/coronavirus-new-rochelle-containment.html | 06:57 |
| ryouma | tinwhiskers: yes, nyc suburbs are all in the northern hemisphere | 06:58 |
| ryouma | idk where tonga is though | 06:58 |
| ryouma | so there's that | 06:58 |
| tinwhiskers | sure, but I have no idea when Spring starts :-) | 06:58 |
| tinwhiskers | oh, so that was back in March. OK | 06:58 |
| ryouma | "someplace in the middle of the pacific kinda near equator" | 06:58 |
| tinwhiskers | briebart (*cough*) says, "Donald Trump Activates National Guard in California, New York, and Washington to Fight Coronavirus" | 06:59 |
| ryouma | srsly? | 06:59 |
| tinwhiskers | https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/03/22/donald-trump-activates-national-guard-california-new-york-washington-fight-coronavirus/ | 06:59 |
| spybert | I wouldn't put much faith in such a nonobjective news source :-) | 06:59 |
| ryouma | i was expecting zero action | 07:00 |
| tinwhiskers | Interesting they would give Trump credit considering his base. | 07:00 |
| ryouma | at least until society collapses completely, then something like martial law | 07:00 |
| spybert | The New York Times is a serious publicantion, though. | 07:00 |
| tinwhiskers | You're saying it was a State decision though and not Trump's right? | 07:00 |
| ryouma | that is why i chose it | 07:00 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah, OK nytimes says it was Cuomo. Strange disconnect. | 07:02 |
| ryouma | cuomo: “I accept full responsibility. If someone is unhappy, somebody wants to blame someone, people complain about someone, blame me.” | 07:02 |
| ryouma | https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/24/nyregion/governor-andrew-cuomo-coronavirus.html | 07:02 |
| ryouma | democrat | 07:03 |
| tinwhiskers | spybert: yeah, obviously breitbart is complete garbage but I just thought it was interesting | 07:03 |
| tinwhiskers | I guess they just wanted people to think trump was doing something?? | 07:04 |
| spybert | probably | 07:05 |
| spybert | One thing that disturbs me about this is the lack of local TV news reporting on the disaster unfolding out there. I guess they laid off all their reporters a while back. | 07:10 |
| ryouma | spybert: are you a nurse? | 07:11 |
| spybert | ryouma: No, my wife is. | 07:12 |
| ryouma | elaborate? -- 22:32 <gigasu_shida> spybert: whwere's that article about the california nursing home debacle | 07:12 |
| ryouma | are nurses still staying on the job? | 07:12 |
| spybert | some, definitely not all. Some facilities had complete wipeouts, and the kind of disasters you would expect from skeleton crews with no critical care experience trying to deal with something like covid-19 | 07:14 |
| gigasu_shida | hi ryouma | 07:15 |
| gigasu_shida | sorry i don't know anything about it | 07:15 |
| ryouma | there might be a case for crimes against humanity against those responsible to protect | 07:15 |
| gigasu_shida | i don't know if you can ask someone who isn't in the military or who hasn't taken some tpye of oath, to protect people like that | 07:16 |
| ryouma | not hte nurses but those who should have locked down | 07:16 |
| gigasu_shida | oh | 07:16 |
| gigasu_shida | well then you can say they should lockdown when there's a bad flu strain going around too | 07:17 |
| gigasu_shida | nobody knows where you draw the line in terms of deadliness | 07:17 |
| ryouma | there is likely jurisprudence | 07:18 |
| spybert | ryouma: Here is a typical example that was reported on a while back - https://www.modbee.com/news/coronavirus/article243511322.html | 07:19 |
| spybert | ryouma: Apparently there have been many more recent examples that didn't make the news cycle | 07:20 |
| ryouma | today we saw more or less an implicit claim that those >=65yo are worth less | 07:21 |
| gigasu_shida | the problem is simply testing | 07:23 |
| gigasu_shida | we use temperature scanners in lieu of actual testing | 07:23 |
| gigasu_shida | and as we know temperature means nothing | 07:23 |
| gigasu_shida | https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2020/11/15/third-skilled-nursing-facility-reports-virus-outbreak/ | 07:23 |
| ryouma | although that is a matter of interpretation | 07:23 |
| gigasu_shida | here's another one spybert | 07:23 |
| spybert | hehe, that's the administration line, "don't test so much and the numbers will go down" :)) | 07:24 |
| gigasu_shida | geez | 07:24 |
| tinwhiskers | it doesn't mean nothing but it's very crude and entirely misses asymptomatic cases, but it's better than nothing. | 07:24 |
| gigasu_shida | it's almost nothing | 07:24 |
| tinwhiskers | it's not much better than nothing :-) | 07:24 |
| gigasu_shida | we don't even know how accurate those temp guns are | 07:24 |
| gigasu_shida | i don't see any calibration labs for those | 07:24 |
| gigasu_shida | in engineering we calibrate our equipment periodically | 07:25 |
| tinwhiskers | they need to be quite as precise as what you are used to. Humans vary quite a bit anyway. | 07:25 |
| tinwhiskers | *they don't need to be | 07:25 |
| tinwhiskers | err, accurate, rather | 07:26 |
| gigasu_shida | how many people run temps above 100 degrees anyways? i've never had a temp that high before although i've never measured my forehead | 07:26 |
| gigasu_shida | also, when people workout or sit in a dank house all day, i'm sure that can add a ton of variability | 07:27 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah, for sure. | 07:27 |
| gigasu_shida | so it's like there are 5 sources of noise adding on top of the measurement | 07:27 |
| tinwhiskers | morning and evening temperatures at the same rest level are about a degree different | 07:27 |
| gigasu_shida | some people when they have fevers just don't get that hot for whatever reason. i guess i'm one of those people | 07:28 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah. You may have a lower baseline. | 07:28 |
| tinwhiskers | pays to know your baseline while you are healthy because if you are one of thiose with a lower baseline you can be [dis]missed as fine when you are actually running a fever. | 07:29 |
| gigasu_shida | yeah | 07:32 |
| gigasu_shida | also the longer the incubation period of a virus the less temp guns help i reckon | 07:32 |
| gigasu_shida | this virus has an unusually long incubation period | 07:32 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 07:32 |
| gigasu_shida | assuming that during the incubation period a person can still shed the virus | 07:33 |
| tinwhiskers | yes, which they can. | 07:33 |
| gigasu_shida | i'm convinced temp guns in asia are mainly just a way to convince people to stay home | 07:34 |
| tinwhiskers | heh. well, that's a good use for them then | 07:34 |
| gigasu_shida | if they are met with more inconvenience when they go outside, like having to get a temp scan every several hundred yards in the city, they'll be more likely to stay home | 07:34 |
| gigasu_shida | the real magic that happened in asia was the contact tracing, not the temp gun hold-ups | 07:35 |
| tinwhiskers | what country are you in if you don't mind me asking, gigasu_shida? | 07:35 |
| gigasu_shida | the us | 07:35 |
| tinwhiskers | oh. OK | 07:35 |
| tinwhiskers | I think the mask wearing and social distancing culture was also important | 07:36 |
| tinwhiskers | they had some experience after all | 07:36 |
| Skunny | temp-gun don't mean shit | 07:37 |
| Skunny | I went to work at 8am and had 97.1 temp got home and had 103.1 | 07:37 |
| gigasu_shida | lol really | 07:37 |
| tinwhiskers | they don't mean much but will pick up a few people | 07:37 |
| Skunny | yeah | 07:38 |
| gigasu_shida | they will pickup a few firefighters and jocks who just got off work or out of the gym | 07:38 |
| tinwhiskers | heh. those too | 07:38 |
| gigasu_shida | in any case it does slow people's roll | 07:38 |
| gigasu_shida | apparently japan as a country buys billions of masks per year, several billion | 07:38 |
| gigasu_shida | so yeah that's quite a mask wearing culture | 07:39 |
| tinwhiskers | just picking up a few may be enough to make a difference when case numbers are fairly low anyway, and if they are indeed putting people off going out then that's also helpful. | 07:39 |
| tinwhiskers | but yeah, I would be pretty unhappy if that was the *only* measure being taken. | 07:40 |
| gigasu_shida | apparently the new average body temperature for people in this era is like 36.4 C | 07:42 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah. crazy, huh | 07:42 |
| gigasu_shida | because i guess people are more sedentary and have air conditioning | 07:42 |
| gigasu_shida | so if we're still thinking 100F is the magic number to lookout for, we're missing a lot of cases | 07:42 |
| gigasu_shida | i don't even know what the cutoff is | 07:43 |
| gigasu_shida | i don't even know what the magic number is that most governments are using | 07:43 |
| gigasu_shida | for temp | 07:43 |
| gigasu_shida | maybe it's 38 C? | 07:43 |
| tinwhiskers | you don't need it to be perfect. if it picks up even a few it still helps drive the R_eff toward or below 1. | 07:43 |
| tinwhiskers | and it does pick up a few | 07:43 |
| gigasu_shida | can you think of a simpler test that could pick up a few as well? | 07:55 |
| gigasu_shida | maybe just a red-eye test | 07:55 |
| gigasu_shida | my eyes look less healthy when i'm sick | 07:56 |
| tinwhiskers | well, there's the AI forced cough thing (I'm sceptical) | 07:56 |
| tinwhiskers | there's fast test methods that may be done in as little as 30 seconds but they are still a wee way away and are probably all disposable so wouldn't scale very well compared to temperature readings but would be FAR better. | 07:57 |
| gigasu_shida | what about a full IR head scan? | 07:57 |
| gigasu_shida | like an IR multi pixel scanner | 07:58 |
| tinwhiskers | I have no idea | 07:58 |
| gigasu_shida | that could be fast too | 07:58 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 07:58 |
| gigasu_shida | scanning the entire head has to be better than just getting the temp at a single point | 07:58 |
| tinwhiskers | maybe | 07:58 |
| gigasu_shida | ok i'm reaching | 07:59 |
| tinwhiskers | pulse oximeters? | 07:59 |
| tinwhiskers | xray? | 08:00 |
| gigasu_shida | xray? | 08:00 |
| gigasu_shida | that wouldn't catch asymptomatics | 08:00 |
| tinwhiskers | lungs | 08:00 |
| gigasu_shida | and early onsets | 08:00 |
| gigasu_shida | it wouldn't catch people who are slightly symptomatic | 08:00 |
| gigasu_shida | only the worst cases | 08:00 |
| tinwhiskers | no, but nor does temperature scans. again you don't need to be perfect to drive R_eff | 08:01 |
| gigasu_shida | oh ok | 08:01 |
| tinwhiskers | I don't think there's going to be any way to catch the asymptomatic cases without antibody/RNA/protein sorts of tests. | 08:03 |
| gigasu_shida | yeah i misspoke earlier | 08:04 |
| gigasu_shida | i didn't intend for any quick test to catch asymptomatics | 08:04 |
| tinwhiskers | ok | 08:04 |
| tinwhiskers | I'm a fan of hard lockdowns followed by contact tracing, and border/regional quarantines and travel restrictions. | 08:06 |
| tinwhiskers | we won't have an ability to do really widespread testing that is much more use than the rather hopeless temperature screening until we're nearly turning the corner anyway. | 08:07 |
| tinwhiskers | and of course mask wearing and social distancing | 08:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Oxford Covid vaccine trials indicate it is safe, produces similar immune response among all adults → https://is.gd/pdyxmV | 08:12 |
| Skunny | The result of your COVID-19 Nasal RT-PCR test that was administered on 11/14/2020 is Positive | 08:59 |
| euod[m] | tinwhiskers: sadly, lockdowns are what you do when contract tracing can't work. it's an admission of failure no matter how you look at it. | 08:59 |
| Skunny | Time to take another test | 09:01 |
| euod[m] | Skunny: ah dude. | 09:02 |
| Skunny | jesus christ | 09:03 |
| euod[m] | I assume you're not symptomatic? | 09:03 |
| Skunny | well here it is | 09:04 |
| Skunny | I started getting symptoms on 11/2 | 09:04 |
| Skunny | https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ml31CC45aO4/X7Ym6abc9_I/AAAAAAAA1pk/oylKWADqR-UNnawcB6kjcyFg3nSedXAygCK8BGAsYHg/s0/2020-11-19.png | 09:04 |
| Skunny | all these test are positive | 09:04 |
| Skunny | I'll take another test tomorrow | 09:04 |
| euod[m] | good luck. | 09:07 |
| Skunny | work made come back today | 09:07 |
| Skunny | said 10 days is enough | 09:07 |
| Skunny | (－‸ლ) | 09:07 |
| euod[m] | yeah yeah that sounds like a good idea for them to be bringing back sick people to the workplace. can't see that being bad for them at all. | 09:10 |
| Skunny | they said cdc says 10 days no fever for 24 hours | 09:12 |
| Skunny | shit I only really had the high fever for a day 1/2 | 09:12 |
| Skunny | when symptoms started | 09:12 |
| euod[m] | I know people with.. no fever. still wouldn't go anywhere near them. | 09:13 |
| euod[m] | furious that they can't taste anything all of a sudden, but as they say they definitely don't have COVID19. | 09:13 |
| Skunny | 10 days after no taste for me is coming back. thank god | 09:14 |
| Skunny | maybe like 50% | 09:15 |
| Skunny | and smell too | 09:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Scientists identify possible COVID-19 treatment: The COVID-19 pandemic continues to cause significant illness and death while treatment options remain limited. St. Jude Children's Research Hospital scientists have discovered a potential strategy to prevent life-threatening inflammation, lung damage and organ failure in patients [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/lt3t7a | 09:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Japan's daily virus cases surge past previous record high: Japan's new coronavirus infections hit a record high Thursday, and the prime minister urged maximum caution but stopped short of calling for restrictions on travel or business. → https://is.gd/Pk0Zcx | 09:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Pacific's Samoa records first case of coronavirus: Samoa announced its first case of COVID-19 on Thursday, as the coronavirus pandemic continued to spread to previously untouched Pacific island nations. → https://is.gd/Noqlcv | 10:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: US virus death toll passes 250,000, New York closes schools: US coronavirus deaths passed a quarter of a million people Wednesday as New York announced it would close schools to battle a rise in infections and anti-restriction protests in Europe turned violent. → https://is.gd/W696bp | 10:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: What are clinical trials and how do they work?: To find out whether experimental COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective, researchers design clinical trials involving thousands of volunteers, divided into groups that receive either the drug under investigation or a placebo. → https://is.gd/T91oT2 | 10:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: Self-interest nudged me to join Moderna’s Covid-19 vaccine trial. Here’s how it’s going: One surprising lesson I learned from participating in Moderna's Covid-19 vaccine trial: If everyone sits at home and never goes out and no one gets sick, the trial will fail. → https://is.gd/YsgS7h | 10:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: The year of the pandemic: a view from South Korea: South Korea should have been decimated after the first infected passenger off the three-hour flight from Wuhan, China, sneezed. But it has sustained fewer Covid-19 cases and deaths than Delaware,… → https://is.gd/6pKXHr | 10:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Oxford Covid vaccine trials indicate it is safe, produces robust immune response among older adults → https://is.gd/pdyxmV | 11:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Russia hits 2 mn virus cases as deaths reach record high: Russia's total coronavirus caseload surpassed two million on Thursday as officials registered record increases in new infections and virus-related deaths. → https://is.gd/bIkIpQ | 11:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Outdoor exercise banned in one of world’s toughest lockdowns → https://is.gd/G9sNy8 | 11:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from Retraction Watch: Publisher infected twice with the same anti-vaccine article: Researchers who lost a paper derided by critics as anti-vaccine have republished their article in a different journal … owned by the same publisher (hint: rhymes with “smells of beer”). As we reported in April 2019, the original article version of [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/KVWBgT | 12:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine shows robust immune response among older adults → https://is.gd/pdyxmV | 12:18 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Scientists Failed to Use Common Sense Early in the Pandemic (85 votes) | https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-failed-to-use-common-sense-early-in-the-pandemic/ | https://redd.it/jwz7cb | 12:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Covid vaccines must be 'a global, public good,' WHO says: Life-saving coronavirus vaccination programs must reach everyone around the world, the World Health Organization's Europe chief said. → https://is.gd/0xYZcZ | 13:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from Il Sole 24 Ore: Virus in circolazione da settembre? Dubbi e certezze sullo studio dell’Istituto dei tumori di Milano: I ricercatori dell’Istituto dei tumori di Milano replicano ai dubbi sullo studio che dimostra come il coronavirus mutato era già presente in Italia molti mesi prima della denuncia della Cina → https://is.gd/xAUUHf | 13:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Art and Culture: Artist and Rock Garden creator T B Solabakkanavar passes away due to COVID-19 complications → https://is.gd/96iU6Y | 13:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine shows robust immune response among older adults → https://is.gd/pdyxmV | 14:08 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Safety and immunogenicity of ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine administered in a prime-boost regimen in young and old adults (COV002): a single-blind, randomised, controlled, phase 2/3 trial (86 votes) | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673620324661 | https://redd.it/jwy6qj | 14:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Design-minded strategies for greener, healthier indoor spaces: As COVID-19 cases rise rapidly across the U.S., there's evidence showing that the virus spreads more easily during indoor activities. CDC guidelines now recommend in-person social activities, including holiday gatherings, be conducted outdoors instead of indoors [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/ezmKQI | 14:20 |
| rpifan | hi | 14:37 |
| darsie | . | 14:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Covid vaccines must be 'a global, public good,' WHO says: Life-saving coronavirus vaccination programs must reach everyone around the world, the World Health Organization's Europe chief said. → https://is.gd/0xYZcZ | 14:45 |
| rpifan | yea | 14:45 |
| rpifan | but i doubt they will be | 14:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Post - November 19 | Questions, images, videos, comments, unconfirmed reports, theories, suggestions → https://is.gd/2jOGzD | 14:57 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Lawsuit: Tyson managers bet money on how many workers would contract COVID-19 - Iowa Capital Dispatch (10087 votes) | https://iowacapitaldispatch.com/2020/11/18/lawsuit-tyson-managers-bet-money-on-how-many-workers-would-contract-covid-19/ | https://redd.it/jwsxph | 15:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from NIH Director's blog: Mini-Lungs in a Lab Dish Mimic Early COVID-19 Infection: Researchers have become skilled in recent years at growing an array of miniature human organs in the lab. Such lab-grown “organoids” have been put to work to better understand diabetes, fatty liver disease, color vision, and much more. Now, NIH-funded researchers [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/ZgVYMH | 15:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine shows promise in elderly; surprise rule will require insurers to estimate out-of-pocket drug costs → https://is.gd/NJ8RRD | 15:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Delhi quadruples mask fines as virus cases soar: Officials in India's capital on Thursday quadrupled the fines dished out for people not wearing face masks as coronavirus cases soar in the megacity, overwhelming hospitals and graveyards even as the government resists calls for another lockdown. → https://is.gd/B6mqtq | 15:35 |
| cAMP | So, how many on ##covid-19 believe that wearing a mask without goggles will stop an epidamy? | 15:44 |
| cAMP | *epidemy | 15:44 |
| ubLIX[m] | that question is too nebulously expressed | 15:45 |
| ketas | ubLIX[m]: hahaha | 15:45 |
| ubLIX[m] | also, *epidemic | 15:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: WHO warns of deadly second wave of virus across Middle East: As winter nears and coronavirus cases surge across the Middle East, the regional director for the World Health Organization said Thursday that the only way to avoid mass deaths is for countries to quickly tighten restrictions and enforce preventative measures. → https://is.gd/iMDcVa | 15:47 |
| cAMP | Ah, my bad. | 15:47 |
| cAMP | ubLIX[m]: hm, perhaps your approach is the wisest one | 15:48 |
| cAMP | ubLIX[m]: So, do you wear a mask without goggles? | 15:52 |
| rpifan | lol | 15:53 |
| ubLIX[m] | i am very lucky in not having to come near anyone or any indoor space, more or less indefinitely. so the question is moot to me | 15:54 |
| cAMP | Ah well, I guess I am just shocked at some believing you can isolate yourself on a micro level with just a fabric mask on the nose+mouth. Because that leaves the eyes. So the thinking seems to be: everyone must wear a mask, but wearing goggles is too inconvinient to stop an lethal epidemic. | 15:54 |
| cAMP | ubLIX[m]: well I do the same: why go to crowds when up to 3% of people will have a very contageous disease. | 15:55 |
| ubLIX[m] | not everyone has a choice | 15:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_2019_nCoV: As pandemic surges, Trump White House calls Thanksgiving restrictions 'Orwellian' → https://is.gd/bofUJC | 15:59 |
| ubLIX[m] | but the volume of air moved by lungs in any given interval surely dwarfs that met by the eyes. doesn't this point to the relative importance of masks for people not subject to high intensity exposure? | 16:00 |
| cAMP | ubLIX[m]: not everyone has a choice to go full measures = mask AND goggles? | 16:00 |
| cAMP | ubLIX[m]: interesting airvolume question. --> how many liters of air do your eyes meet during an hour? | 16:01 |
| cAMP | ubLIX[m]: also, actually considering infection vectors, this the bifurcates: the large droplets flying into your eyes, nose and mouth, and the aerosol droplets that one might inhale. | 16:03 |
| cAMP | *then | 16:03 |
| ubLIX[m] | consider the surface area of your lungs, throat, nasal passages, membranes.. compared to the surface area of your eyes, and that your lungs are forcing volumes of air over these surfaces, whereas your eyes are subject only to ambient viral load | 16:06 |
| ubLIX[m] | and that you're not standing close enough to anyone to meet with large particles. hopefully | 16:06 |
| cAMP | So you are arguing for leaving eyes unprotected because of the large surface area of your lungs? | 16:07 |
| cAMP | Dunno, seems like omission to me | 16:08 |
| ubLIX[m] | i suppose i'm saying the relative infection-mode probabilities seem so skewed that you're over estimating the risk of the eye route | 16:10 |
| ubLIX[m] | if you have to stand within arms reach of someone regularly or for longer than very few seconds, use a screen or eye protection. if not, well, balance your risks accordingly | 16:11 |
| cAMP | Well to me the statistical evaluations from the studies available seem to suggest the opposite: that the protective effect of an typical cloth- or fabric-mask is greatly overestimated, while "leaving the door wide open" through eyes. | 16:12 |
| cAMP | Of course the directly flying droplets will not travel far, a meter or so. | 16:13 |
| cAMP | Dunno, seems like masks are the new Jesus. | 16:13 |
| ubLIX[m] | i haven't read any studies recently so i can't get into quantified reasoning with you | 16:13 |
| cAMP | Thats all I've been doing since 2010. Biomed studies by the dozen, every day. https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817 | 16:14 |
| cAMP | ubLIX[m]: I like the "quantified reasoning" idea, tho. | 16:14 |
| cAMP | - The diff in infection between masked and unmasked real world populations was 0.3%. | 16:18 |
| ubLIX[m] | 10 years? you will have come across the notion that infection probability and outcome severity is dose-dependant? and that for common non-clinical activities, dose-dependant means time-dependant? | 16:19 |
| cAMP | Well I call it "dose-rate". | 16:20 |
| cAMP | B] | 16:20 |
| ubLIX[m] | i will ask you not to post a number like that 0.3% unless you are at the same time able to cite a long-term meta analyses supporting the number | 16:20 |
| cAMP | Its a random controlled trial. | 16:21 |
| ubLIX[m] | and one that i very much doubt can support the generality with which you used it | 16:22 |
| cAMP | I'd rather you'd try reading the publication. | 16:23 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Tocilizumab effective in treating sickest COVID-19 patients (81 votes) | https://www.recover-europe.eu/tocilizumab-effective-in-treating-sickest-covid-19-patients/ | https://redd.it/jx2h5f | 16:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Canada in talks to donate extra COVID-19 vaccine shots to poorer countries - Canada, has reserved enough doses to vaccinate residents several times over, is in talks with other governments about a plan to donate shots to lower-income countries, according to three sources familiar with the matter. → https://is.gd/4Cjyjk | 16:25 |
| ubLIX[m] | you're free to post and try to garner a discussion of its merits. i haven't the time to join in | 16:27 |
| cAMP | Well, 4862 participants, "infection with SARS-CoV-2 occurred in 42 participants recommended masks (1.8%) and 53 control participants (2.1%)." | 16:31 |
| cAMP | - ie. difference of under 3 cases per 1000 participants for mask wearers. | 16:33 |
| cAMP | Would be interesting to see what the effects of goggles would be in a similar study. | 16:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: New study reveals impact of face masks on person identification: Research by experts at the University of Stirling has revealed the impact that the increased wearing of face masks may be having on people's ability to recognize each other. → https://is.gd/Ma7aed | 16:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from "Cluster 5" on Wikipedia: 85.218.135.17: target article is on the English name (not the Latin), easier to just link that: target article is on the English name (not the Latin), easier to just link that ← Previous revision Revision as of 15:46, 19 November 2020 Line 8: Line 8: == Background == == Background == − [[File:American Mink, Centre [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/74bzDF | 16:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Prevalence of Myocardial Scars on CMR After COVID-19 Infection → https://is.gd/lFqidS | 17:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Borderline COVID-19 PCR Test Result → https://is.gd/6WXf7L | 17:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Burden of SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Populations With High or Low Risk of Infection → https://is.gd/jJfhDp | 17:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Borderline COVID-19 PCR Test Result → https://is.gd/6WXf7L | 17:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Prevalence of Myocardial Scars on CMR After COVID-19 Infection → https://is.gd/lFqidS | 17:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Burden of SARS-CoV-2 Infection in Populations With High or Low Risk of Infection → https://is.gd/jJfhDp | 18:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Maryland Governor Orders Early Release Of Inmates To Stem Spread Of Coronavirus: Inmates must test negative for COVID-19 before their release. No one convicted of a sexual offense or crime of violence is eligible. The move is to protect both prisoners and prison employees. → https://is.gd/Wl1GQg | 18:17 |
| LjL | I have a COUGH | 18:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: CDC urges Americans against traveling for Thanksgiving as coronavirus outbreak worsens: The U.S. reported more than 170,100 new cases of the virus on Wednesday, the second-highest one-day spike reported to date, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. → https://is.gd/jRptGo | 18:30 |
| ubLIX[m] | :( | 18:30 |
| LjL | i see Brainstorm seems to have become a lot more talkative since i removed the last check i added | 18:32 |
| LjL | who knows now how many bad news we have missed because it wasn't posting it! | 18:32 |
| LjL | cAMP, "participants recommended masks"... were they actually verified to *wear* those masks? the difference may become diluted if a significant portion of those recommended masks weren't actually wearing them | 18:38 |
| LjL | cAMP, also you say "difference of under 3 cases per 1000 participants for mask wearers" and that is technically correct in the framework of the study i guess, but as a proportion, 2.1% vs 1.8% is significantly more (not AS significantly we might have hoped, granted) | 18:40 |
| LjL | (i don't mean "significantly" in a statistical sense; i don't know if the difference reached statistical signficance, haven't read the paper) | 18:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Pandemic affecting young people's mental health: (HealthDay)—Nearly half of U.S. young adults report symptoms of depression, with more than one-third reporting thoughts of death or suicide, according to the results of a survey released by the COVID-19 Consortium for Understanding the Public's Policy Preferences Across States. → https://is.gd/pzUt4u | 18:42 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Russia: +23610 cases (now 2.0 million), +463 deaths (now 34850) since 12 hours ago — Serbia: +6109 cases (now 104097), +29 deaths (now 1110) since 12 hours ago — Turkey: +4542 cases (now 430170), +123 deaths (now 11943) since 12 hours ago — Georgia: +3697 cases (now 93092), +38 deaths (now 853) since 12 hours ago | 18:47 |
| LjL | i don't understand why Brainstorm now outputs all numbers at the same time | 18:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Advice to Dutch government: Vaccinate elderly and ill first: An advisory panel said Thursday that the Dutch government should prioritize coronavirus vaccinations for people over age 60, those with underlying health problems and frontline health care workers when the first shots become available. → https://is.gd/M91F6z | 18:54 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +41565 cases (now 11.9 million), +514 deaths (now 256768) since 13 hours ago | 18:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Every toilet flush reveals a clue in fight to stop COVID-19: With COVID-19 infections spiking again at an alarming rate, Chicago is scrambling to catch up to other cities forecasting outbreaks by analyzing human waste flushed down thousands of toilets. → https://is.gd/LEDNJQ | 19:06 |
| LjL | de-facto, tinwhiskers: i'm confused about something, i was looking at (hunting for) the usual italian wastewater study again, and i found https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969720331727 but i also found https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7428442/ ... both appear to be published studies aiui, and based on the authors and text content, they are the same study, but they have two different titles and different publishing dates, | 19:09 |
| LjL | AND the sequenced (partial) genomes have different accession numbers for genbank | 19:09 |
| LjL | is this a usual thing, for a study to appear in different flavors on different journals...? | 19:10 |
| LjL | also a passage i notice now: | 19:11 |
| LjL | "The analysed sequences showed, for bothORF1ab and S partial gene regions, 100% identity with thefirst SARS-CoV-2 sequence detected in Italy (MT066156), isolated on 30th January2020 from a Chinese tourist by the Institute“Lazzaro Spallanzani”(INMI, Rome). Given the high level of conservation of the two analysedregions, 100% identity was also detected with several sequences inGenBank and with all the other Italian SARS-CoV-2 genomes depositedin Gisaid." | 19:11 |
| LjL | but i thought we had only seen sequences for ORF1ab, not S | 19:12 |
| LjL | that statement doesn't appear to be in the study at NIH, though | 19:13 |
| LjL | god i can't keep tabs on all these things, i'm getting confused as hell | 19:13 |
| LjL | literal browser tabs as well as mental tabs | 19:14 |
| LjL | they do have sequences for the S protein too, actually... | 19:16 |
| LjL | e.g. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/MT373162 | 19:16 |
| de-facto | hmm but the ncbi is a preprint server right? e.g. the DOI links to the sciencedirect publication? | 19:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from CDC (old): Cases & Deaths by County: Find national and local rates for COVID cases and deaths in the United States. → https://is.gd/yJtqEF | 19:18 |
| LjL | de-facto, that would make some sense, since the sciencedirect version makes claims the other doesn't, and the accession numbers that include the S protein are only from sciencedirect, while NIH only has ORF1ab | 19:19 |
| LjL | de-facto, but i thought that last time we looked, we had first looked at a preprint but then later realized it had been published, and looked at that | 19:19 |
| LjL | hence confusion :| | 19:19 |
| de-facto | yeah i always try to resolve the DOI to get the the newest version | 19:20 |
| LjL | de-facto, well, based on my IRC logs, last time we looked, we were definitely looking up the "old" accession numbers, the NIH ones, that don't include S | 19:20 |
| de-facto | nice so did they sequence several primers on the same sample? | 19:21 |
| de-facto | hmm well in sewer it could be several strains in contrast to samples from a patient though | 19:22 |
| de-facto | im asking becasue i know they use two primers in PCR to be most specific | 19:23 |
| tinwhiskers | Two primers are required for a single match. A start and a stop primer. | 19:25 |
| de-facto | "..twelve influent sewage samples, collected between February and April 2020 from Wastewater Treatment Plants in Milan and Rome..." | 19:25 |
| de-facto | i meant two genes so then two start and two stop | 19:26 |
| tinwhiskers | Ok | 19:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Virus cases surge in Iran, Jordan, Morocco: WHO: Iran, Jordan and Morocco have recorded thousands of new COVID-19 infections in recent days, the World Health Organization said Thursday, warning that lockdowns could not stamp out the pandemic. → https://is.gd/bH4dO2 | 19:31 |
| LjL | <de-facto> nice so did they sequence several primers on the same sample? ← honestly i don't know what that means :P i can see that they used *several* PCRs to match various parts of the genome, but that's something else | 19:32 |
| LjL | postit: anyway, for future reference, italian italy wastewater sewage sewer analysis sequences ORF1ab Spike: https://np.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/juabvy/unexpected_detection_of_sarscov2_antibodies_in/gcurb7w/ | 19:33 |
| LjL | de-facto, they definitely sequenced various samples, so there are multiple sequences for ORF1ab, and multiple sequences (only two maybe?) for S | 19:34 |
| LjL | that's why they range from MT373156 to MT373163 | 19:34 |
| de-facto | yeah, i just realized it may be difficult to get a full sequence because the assumption that fragments are only from one "strain" may not hold | 19:37 |
| de-facto | like you have a puzzle and may find several solutions: are they all real then? | 19:37 |
| LjL | de-facto, well it's a shame though because if they qualified for ending up on nextstrain, we'd have more answers | 19:39 |
| cAMP | LjL: I know there are few people whose inner bias can easily digest the fact that there were only 3 cases less per thousand participants. Me included until yesterday night. | 19:39 |
| LjL | de-facto, anyway the study says the things they found "100% match" the initial italian (actually chinese, but in italy) patients | 19:39 |
| LjL | cAMP, what changed yesterday night? | 19:40 |
| cAMP | LjL: as to other details, I guess its just best to let everyone read the study, I think I've made my comments and while I attempt to make factual statements, my statements are not the issue here: | 19:40 |
| LjL | cAMP, that's fair, i'll read the study. i'm just doing a lot of things atm | 19:40 |
| cAMP | Here's the study, also read the editorial if you really want more POV https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817 | 19:40 |
| cAMP | (2 editorials, in fact) | 19:40 |
| LjL | thanks | 19:41 |
| cAMP | LjL: heh what changed is that study came out and I read it carefully. | 19:41 |
| LjL | cAMP, just because i said this elsewhere (but yes i will read the study before i consider this a claim i'm actually making) | 19:41 |
| LjL | <LjL> i'm reading the NYT article that mentioned it, then i'll read the study | 19:42 |
| LjL | <LjL> the NYT article makes sure to mention that it's a study about efficacy *for the wearer* | 19:42 |
| cAMP | LjL: re: cough - did you measure temp? | 19:42 |
| LjL | cAMP, no, not yet, i will but when i have a fever, even mild, i usually feel it a lot. anyway the only contact with people i've had was yesterday, i got sweaty and cold, that's a more likely explanation for the fever than having COVID symptoms after just one day, fortunately | 19:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: CDC urges Americans against traveling for Thanksgiving as coronavirus outbreak worsens: The U.S. reported more than 170,100 new cases of the virus on Wednesday, the second-highest one-day spike reported to date, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. → https://is.gd/jRptGo | 19:43 |
| tinwhiskers | "The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates" - which is certainly sufficient to be driving r_eff downwards in conjunction with other measures so I think they're saying you should wear masks, right? | 19:44 |
| tinwhiskers | Interpreting this study as saying masks don't work would be a huge overstep. | 19:45 |
| Skunny | Covid hit my in one day | 19:45 |
| Skunny | was fine, went home and BAM 103.1 temp | 19:45 |
| LjL | Skunny, well how do you know the *exposure* was one day before? | 19:45 |
| Skunny | oh, that I dunno | 19:45 |
| LjL | that's the point, time from exposure to symptoms. until yesterday i was home all day | 19:46 |
| Skunny | ahhh | 19:46 |
| Skunny | I missed what you said. Are you getting sick? | 19:46 |
| aggi | during flue season 2017/18 death rate was signifcant, but not cv19 tests were conducted at that time. | 19:47 |
| cAMP | tinwhiskers: I think one has to be very careful over the statements. | 19:47 |
| cAMP | tinwhiskers: I would go for "masks do not prevent infection." | 19:47 |
| tinwhiskers | Of course they don't | 19:47 |
| tinwhiskers | Nobody had ever claimed they do | 19:47 |
| aggi | if face masks were effective, if at all, then it was 2 years late to take action | 19:48 |
| tinwhiskers | They reduce your chance of becoming infected. | 19:48 |
| tinwhiskers | Reduction of infection rates is exactly what we need to drive down R_eff. | 19:49 |
| cAMP | tinwhiskers: if you look at the AIM (acpjournals.org) link mask-study from Denmark, they suggest mask recommendations can change Risk from 40% reduction, to 20% increase. | 19:49 |
| cAMP | *link above to a | 19:49 |
| tinwhiskers | That's a great improvement, no? | 19:49 |
| LjL | oh nevermind my temperature, i forgot i took a paracetamol earlier | 19:49 |
| cAMP | tinwhiskers: read again what I wrote | 19:49 |
| LjL | i wanted to measure it right after but i forgot | 19:49 |
| tinwhiskers | So they are effective at reducing your risk. | 19:49 |
| cAMP | tinwhiskers: read again, the last part of what I wrote. | 19:50 |
| blkshp | You wont find any of those pills in the jungle. | 19:50 |
| LjL | cAMP, the "reduction" would be from what? | 19:50 |
| LjL | i mean, what's the baseline | 19:50 |
| cAMP | tinwhiskers: What does it mean if instead of reducing risk, the risk increases 20%? | 19:50 |
| tinwhiskers | Change risk from 40% to 20%. Yes, a useful reduction in risk. | 19:50 |
| LjL | no tinwhiskers | 19:50 |
| cAMP | No. Read again. | 19:50 |
| LjL | he said a 40% reduction (from i'm not sure what) to a 20% *increase* | 19:50 |
| cAMP | - Seems most people only read the parts that contain the claims that they like. | 19:51 |
| tinwhiskers | Oh, ok. | 19:51 |
| LjL | masks can indeed potentially increase risk, like if you touch them too much | 19:51 |
| LjL | but what is the 40%? | 19:51 |
| cAMP | Heh *raises hands in air* https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817 | 19:51 |
| tinwhiskers | So that's saying their statistical significance is insufficient to make a claim but if you take the center point it's still helpful. | 19:51 |
| LjL | Skunny, not getting sick, hopefully. i just have a cough | 19:51 |
| cAMP | I'm not saying anything anymore about any risk. _ever_ | 19:51 |
| cAMP | XD | 19:51 |
| cAMP | tinwhiskers: to comment on that, they state 95% CI, if you know what a CI is. | 19:52 |
| tinwhiskers | Given the weak power of the test you can't claim anything but it you did you would have to say they still have a benefit | 19:52 |
| cAMP | "The test" is? | 19:52 |
| tinwhiskers | Clearly their study had insufficient power to make a call one way or the other. | 19:53 |
| LjL | uh | 19:53 |
| LjL | what the article actually says is "Although the difference observed was not statistically significant, the 95% CIs are compatible with a 46% reduction to a 23% increase in infection" | 19:53 |
| LjL | what you said sounded a bit different :P | 19:53 |
| cAMP | tinwhiskers: So that must be why there are 2 editorials written on that study, eh. | 19:53 |
| aggi | just assume if the pandemic began in 2017 (for which evidence exists), how then could face masks benefit in 2020 three years later? | 19:53 |
| LjL | it means their confidence interval isn't good enough to know | 19:53 |
| cAMP | Ah, good point. | 19:54 |
| LjL | cAMP, yes but there are also other prior (admittedly, often small) studies that find a benefit in masks | 19:54 |
| cAMP | Sure, but randomized controlled, real-world population studies? | 19:54 |
| tinwhiskers | Given lack of significance of you picked the center point you'd still conclude a benefit. | 19:55 |
| LjL | cAMP, maybe not, but they list under limitations: "Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests" | 19:55 |
| LjL | variable adherence is important | 19:55 |
| LjL | they know they gave a *recommendation* to a given amount of people | 19:55 |
| LjL | but they don't know if they actually wore it | 19:55 |
| cAMP | *There's studies where trained lab workers do miracles without masks and autoclaves with just alcohol wipes in a lab. | 19:55 |
| LjL | that's not great | 19:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Q&A: Tips to prepare children for a flu vaccination: DEAR MAYO CLINIC: My 5-year-old son is afraid of needles. He cries and fusses anytime we have to visit the doctor. When it's time for an immunization or vaccination, he squirms and screams, and he has to be held down. Afterward he admits that it wasn't so bad, but he never [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/XbIlQO | 19:55 |
| cAMP | LjL: theres even more: the antibody test is only semi-reliable. | 19:56 |
| tinwhiskers | All tests are only semi reliable | 19:56 |
| tinwhiskers | They all have false positives and false negatives | 19:56 |
| cAMP | I wonder if that actually captures the reality very well. | 19:56 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, PCR has basically no false positives unless you mishandle it (contaminate it) i think? | 19:56 |
| tinwhiskers | Yeah, contamination is one sometimes unavoidable source of false positives | 19:57 |
| LjL | cAMP, so as a matter of personal curiosity, from a practical perspective, are you going to stop wearing masks, or are you going to keep wearing them and add eye protection as well, or what else | 19:57 |
| aggi | corona virus is documented since 1960s, and how could PCR tests be sufficiently specific to what's tested for? | 19:58 |
| LjL | aggi, "coronavirus" isn't one entity | 19:58 |
| LjL | aggi, there are a large number of coronaviruses. this particular one has a specific genome that can be picked up specifically by a specific PCR for it | 19:58 |
| aggi | why had no tests been taken in year 2017/18 when the flu season was the 'most deadly in 30 years'? | 19:58 |
| LjL | aggi, because we knew it was flu...? | 19:59 |
| aggi | LjL how, if no tests were taken? | 19:59 |
| tinwhiskers | You imagine a person working in the lab has the virus and there are virions in the air... Depending how many PCR cycles you run you can pick up tiny tiny amounts of contamination and get false positives | 19:59 |
| LjL | aggi, tests are taken, that's how they sequence each year's influenza virus | 19:59 |
| tinwhiskers | So you can and do get false positives with PCR | 19:59 |
| LjL | they weren't done en masse, but they were done | 19:59 |
| aggi | ok LjL, but i hadn't read any report about 2017/18 yet, which any sane scientist would urge to do | 20:00 |
| LjL | aggi, the fact you haven't read it doesn't mean there aren't...? | 20:00 |
| LjL | there is a flu report from CDC and other relevant agencies each year | 20:00 |
| LjL | i don't understand what your point is, really | 20:00 |
| LjL | actually more than one report | 20:01 |
| aggi | the only expert who argued about this (former german government advisor), said the cv19 wasn't any special | 20:01 |
| aggi | but he was immediately expelled from public | 20:01 |
| LjL | are you kidding me? the only expert? this shit has been discussed endlessly | 20:01 |
| LjL | "it's just a flu" has been beaten to DEATH | 20:01 |
| tinwhiskers | Jesus. He should have been kicked out | 20:01 |
| LjL | it's not a fucking flu, you moron. come here and see the state of our hospitals | 20:01 |
| cAMP | I suppose its also a question of "when" someone made what statements. | 20:01 |
| aggi | LjL: the only expert who mentioned seasons predating year 2019 and corona virus were documented since 1960s | 20:02 |
| cAMP | Last Jan? Mar? Sep? | 20:02 |
| tinwhiskers | The government needs to send clear unambiguous messages and dissent like that causes a great deal of harm. | 20:02 |
| LjL | aggi, the fact that you keep saying "corona [sic] virus were documented since the 1960s" shows you are not understanding ANYTHING about this | 20:02 |
| LjL | and i've tried to address that | 20:02 |
| LjL | but you just repeat the same thing again | 20:02 |
| cAMP | Virus is a plural, right, aggi ? | 20:03 |
| aggi | exactly LjL, public debate is so full of contradictions i explicitely DENY anyone could know anything for sure | 20:03 |
| LjL | cAMP, i am not fussed about the plural, but "coronavirus" doesn't have a space. obviously that's hardly the most pressing issue with what aggi is saying though, just a quip. | 20:03 |
| LjL | "exactly"? | 20:04 |
| LjL | that is not what i said | 20:04 |
| LjL | we know things | 20:04 |
| LjL | we know exactly the sequence of this virus | 20:04 |
| LjL | we know about SARS and MERS, which were very lethal coronaviruses | 20:04 |
| tinwhiskers | If you disagree with the party line in a private company or the government you should expect to be expelled, doublly so when the general scientific consensus says the opposite and your view may lead to the deaths of many people. | 20:04 |
| LjL | are you going to argue that SARS and MERS are just like any other coronavirus from the 1960s? | 20:04 |
| aggi | ok, but how was this relevant to the public health crisis? which is prevalent, don't doubt that, but i doubt cv19 was relevant to the health crisis. | 20:05 |
| LjL | the current health crisis? | 20:06 |
| genera | i would like to argue that influenza is a corona _duck_ | 20:06 |
| LjL | what do you think the current health crisis is due to? the flu? aliens? | 20:06 |
| LjL | genera, i understand what you mean but you're silly :P | 20:06 |
| genera | \o/ | 20:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: CDC urges Americans against traveling for Thanksgiving as coronavirus outbreak worsens: The U.S. reported more than 170,100 new cases of the virus on Wednesday, the second-highest one-day spike reported to date, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. → https://is.gd/jRptGo | 20:08 |
| cAMP | The most significant health crisis is still metabolic stuff, T2 diabetes, cigarettes and alcohol, afaics. +3 million dead every year each, if I remember correctly. | 20:08 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Leaked White House report warns current Covid-19 mitigation efforts 'inadequate' (10176 votes) | https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/18/us-coronavirus-deaths-latest-toll-white-house-taskforce-report | https://redd.it/jx19oz | 20:08 |
| LjL | cAMP, except those things don't make our hospitals exceed capacity by far and force triaging of people | 20:08 |
| LjL | it really boggles my mind how a group of people can fail to understand this obvious, gigantic difference | 20:08 |
| cAMP | LjL: well I wonder if in some sense they do, anyway, its like a comparison. There are 450 million T2 diabetics as a comparison - basically all from lifestyle or diet. | 20:09 |
| aggi | anyhow, what was supposed to be accomplished with the corona campaign now? (certainly it won't fix the health crisis or any other such as finance) | 20:10 |
| cAMP | Stop covid 19? | 20:11 |
| cAMP | In fact, the explicit argument has been since March 2020 that it cannot be eradicated, and whatever action is taken is to prevent the total collapse of the healthcare system. | 20:12 |
| cAMP | (so "stop covid 19" is a catchy slogan but should have written "help deal with covid 19") | 20:12 |
| aggi | ok, but the corona campaign cannot and will not accomplish this, i suspect. | 20:13 |
| cAMP | In some places it has, in other places it hasn't, in some places no action has been taken and "stuff" hits the fan. | 20:13 |
| LjL | aggi, what is "the corona campaign" | 20:14 |
| aggi | LjL: i distinguish real medical concerns from what's publicly broadcasted, and the latter is a propaganda campaign | 20:15 |
| LjL | cAMP, it doesn't seem veeery likely, but we can still sort of realistically hope that if we manage to vaccine everyone, we may be able to use a vaccine that confers long-term immunity, and then by sheer luck there won't be too many animal strains spilling back. so in this sense, it's not yet a lie to say we may eventually be able to "stop" it. | 20:15 |
| LjL | aggi, enough of this | 20:15 |
| LjL | from the point of view of this channel, YOU are doing a propaganda campaign alleging that COVID-19 doesn't exist as such | 20:15 |
| LjL | or that it doesn't matter, but your repeating things about 1960s coronaviruses suggests you want to allege it doesn't really exist as an important entity | 20:16 |
| LjL | this is not what this channel is about, and it is not a platform to make that unsubstantiated argument | 20:16 |
| cAMP | LjL: I think in some models the vaccine doesn't need to reach everyone, even just some tens of percent might help take the "head" off the "hump" (the statistical curve) | 20:16 |
| LjL | lurk for a day or so if you want, see what actually gets discussed here, and then i'll unquiet you and you can either join the discussions or find somewhere that supports your in-our-opinion obviously unsubstantiated claims | 20:17 |
| LjL | cAMP, yeah, that's another bit of optimism we can put into the mix | 20:17 |
| cAMP | Or just make you own channel where you won't be silenced for your opinion aggi 8) | 20:17 |
| LjL | cAMP, realistically though, it is *likely* that we won't eradicate it and that we'll keep dealing with this in various ways. right now though, who wants to think of it that way? it would probably just discourage everyone from even trying to be carefl | 20:18 |
| LjL | although, mind, i don't really support public lying to manipulate people into doing things | 20:18 |
| LjL | i'm just saying that the "we'll never get rid of it" outcome is not yet the only plausible one | 20:18 |
| LjL | cAMP, yes, he can make the 6th or so coronavirus channel | 20:19 |
| LjL | or join one of the 4 or so existing "we don't like being silenced for saying nonsense" ones | 20:19 |
| cAMP | Yep, eradicate may be bit optimistic when theres what? millions of cases anyway | 20:19 |
| LjL | cAMP, the thing that concerns me the most is that it's now been clearly shown to take MUCH hold in some animals | 20:19 |
| LjL | you can eradicate a human-specific disease, you can't eradicate something that's in half our mammals | 20:20 |
| cAMP | Was just reading about the 15 million minks put down in Denmark. | 20:20 |
| LjL | cAMP, the last i had was that parliament had vetoed the culling | 20:20 |
| LjL | (unfortunately) | 20:20 |
| cAMP | LjL: where? | 20:21 |
| LjL | cAMP, in denmark | 20:21 |
| LjL | the government had decided to cull them, but then parliament blocked it | 20:22 |
| LjL | that bit of news is from some days ago though, so maybe some court blocked the blocking, i dunno | 20:22 |
| cAMP | Strange, I seem to remember reading that 15 million put down, and that the strain was no longer found. | 20:22 |
| LjL | cAMP, do you have a link or some keywords from the article you read? i may have outdated information | 20:22 |
| LjL | oh wow | 20:23 |
| LjL | i see headlines from 9 days ago: "Denmark mink cull: Government admits culling had no legal basis | 20:23 |
| LjL | The Danish government has admitted there was no legal basis for the mass cull of farmed mink it ordered after a mutated version of the coronavirus was found in ... | 20:23 |
| LjL | " | 20:23 |
| tinwhiskers | The strain was already in the human population so unless they culled people as well it seems unlikely :-/ | 20:24 |
| LjL | and from today "Culling of minks in Denmark prompts a political crisis." | 20:24 |
| cAMP | Its hardly very scientific but its new: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-mink-denmark-b1744121.html | 20:24 |
| tinwhiskers | wow | 20:24 |
| LjL | cAMP, i don't care if it's scientific, whether they culled them or not is not a matter of science :P | 20:24 |
| LjL | also "Danish cabinet minister resigns over mink culling order that has shaken highest levels of government" | 20:25 |
| tinwhiskers | "However, following the mass cull, Denmark’s health ministry said in a statement it believed it had managed to wipe out the mink strain entirely" | 20:25 |
| tinwhiskers | managing to wipe it out completely considering how widespread it had become in humans in that area is certainly an achievement. | 20:26 |
| cAMP | Sars-cov-2 is special in that it gets everyone to mete out heavyhanded action, whether legal or backed by science, or not. | 20:27 |
| tinwhiskers | precautionary, yes | 20:27 |
| cAMP | Imagine same being done to T2 diabetes, education or poverty! | 20:27 |
| tinwhiskers | they are not infectious | 20:27 |
| tinwhiskers | the time scale on which those things evolve is in the order of years and several government cycles, not weeks and months. | 20:28 |
| tinwhiskers | Oh, cluster 5 is a mink population, not human, so presumably the new variant still persists in humans. | 20:33 |
| tinwhiskers | or maybe I have that wrong | 20:33 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, they were going to test a LOT of people for it | 20:34 |
| LjL | so maybe they tested and found it in mostly no one | 20:34 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah. oh. maybe | 20:34 |
| LjL | i realize now that i completely stopped following that | 20:37 |
| LjL | for some days i don't want to hear about things sometimes... or i get focused on something that's still about COVID-19 but unrelated, and i lose track of other things that were also important to follow. | 20:37 |
| cAMP | I see, LjL is just another person trying to force a POV. Just another irc hitler. | 20:44 |
| LjL | :( | 20:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virology.ws: TWiV 683: Two COVID-19 mRNA vaccines: On this episode of TWiV, mRNA vaccines from Moderna and Pfizer show over 90% efficacy, prothrombotic auto-antibodies in serum of COVID-19 patients, and the whereabouts of SARS-CoV-2 in the human body. Click arrow to playDownload TWiV 683 (72 MB .mp3, 119 min)Subscribe (free): iTunes, Google [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/UidTTT | 20:45 |
| tinwhiskers | lol. It was pretty obvious from the outset he was another one of those. | 20:45 |
| LjL | i didn't think so | 20:45 |
| LjL | his departure stemps from me PMing him | 20:45 |
| LjL | i wanted... gahe | 20:45 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i actually wanted to (indirectly, without explicitly mentioning you) make him wary of the fact you feel very strongly about masks being important, so as long as he kept on presenting the whole thing from a scientific perspective, he MIGHT get annoyed reactions but probably not get banned or kicked. i wanted to make him aware of those possible reactions so that he'd know not to escalate things | 20:47 |
| LjL | apparently he took that as an attempt to silence what he wanted to say, when it was just about the opposite | 20:47 |
| tinwhiskers | lol | 20:47 |
| LjL | and ironically i did that in PM to avoid ending up offending you or causing a fuss here, but now i'm ending up telling you instead | 20:47 |
| tinwhiskers | :-) | 20:47 |
| ubLIX[m] | his very first question rang the troll bell for me, but i only check in once a week now so i didn't want to get into it | 20:48 |
| LjL | i thought compared to aggi whom i muted earlier, he was a good example of someone who held a different viewpoint from most of us, but could still discuss it logically and scientifically | 20:49 |
| LjL | but maybe the COVID i obviously have given my cough and general malaise today is starting to attack the nervous system | 20:49 |
| LjL | and my judgement is impaired. you know, this obviously does happen: who are some people who've gotten covid? Johnson, Trump, Berlusconi... and have you heard the things they say?! :P | 20:50 |
| LjL | Bolsonaro! | 20:50 |
| ubLIX[m] | anxiety suppresses immune system, LjL. stop anxietying | 20:52 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], the problem with that is it's not an on/off switch | 20:52 |
| ubLIX[m] | wait 72 hours and reevaluate :p | 20:52 |
| LjL | can i sleep throughout? | 20:52 |
| ubLIX[m] | worth a try | 20:52 |
| Arsanerit | I wonder, after Trump and Covid-19 are gone, if the press are going to have so much less sales that they're going to need a bail-out. | 21:08 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, i don't think the future will be shy of awful news | 21:10 |
| LjL | also, unless he stages a coup, Trump will be gone well before COVID is, unfortunately | 21:10 |
| LjL | or fortunately, depending | 21:11 |
| Arsanerit | You think Trump will die before the pandemic is under control? | 21:11 |
| ubLIX[m] | for one thing, Team Biden fighting the republicans is going to be a train wreck | 21:11 |
| LjL | no, i assumed by "gone" you meant as president | 21:11 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], did the republicans end up tied in senate eventually? | 21:12 |
| LjL | or don't we know yet | 21:12 |
| ubLIX[m] | and Team Biden is a return to the status quo that made Trump possible | 21:12 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], well you know there's unlikely to be a "third party" in the US any time soon | 21:12 |
| ubLIX[m] | so there's a solid chance that a competent version of Trump will oust Biden at the next election | 21:13 |
| Arsanerit | ubLIX[m]: maybe, but if the Republicans claim elections are fraudulent then maybe that suppresses turnout among Trumpets in the next elections | 21:13 |
| ubLIX[m] | i think the papers will have plenty to write about | 21:13 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], i was shown https://twitter.com/camilateleSUR/status/1329501087209050120 which recently aired | 21:13 |
| ubLIX[m] | LjL: senate majority: i don't know. don't think the runoffs are complete yet? | 21:14 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: there would seem to be good hope that by one year from now many nations will have vaccinated many people, in particular risk groups and key workers, and that this vaccination may provide immunity to most for a while? | 21:14 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, not by the end of january 2021, not really | 21:14 |
| LjL | healthcare workers, possibly | 21:14 |
| LjL | i doubt there will be many more than those vaccinated | 21:14 |
| LjL | but i'll grant you that a COVID that's still there but weaker is vaguely comparable to a Trump that's still there but not president! | 21:15 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: no, I mean one year from now | 21:17 |
| Arsanerit | and I didn't say COVID would be gone, I meant under control. Like a fire that's still smoldering. | 21:18 |
| Arsanerit | Like a fire that's still smoldering but where we need to keep putting water on it to stop it from flaring up again. | 21:18 |
| tinwhiskers | "after Trump and Covid-19 are gone" - you did say gone | 21:20 |
| tinwhiskers | Trump TV will likely go on for years :-( | 21:20 |
| ubLIX[m] | LjL: wrt that twitter video, i don't know that any part of the GOP thinks 2020 is salvageable for them, but that the continuing destabilisation is valuable to them for going forward and for 2024 in particular | 21:20 |
| Arsanerit | tinwhiskers: true, sorry | 21:21 |
| Arsanerit | Somehow I thought one thing but wrote another | 21:21 |
| Arsanerit | Who will die first, Trump or Berlusconi? | 21:21 |
| Arsanerit | Oh, Berlusconi is 10 years older than Trump. | 21:22 |
| Arsanerit | I am surprised there haven't been more comparisons between the two. | 21:22 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], it does seem ridiculous at this point to still think he could "win", so yeah, i don't really know, but roughly speaking, i agree | 21:39 |
| ubLIX[m] | apparently it's Jan 5th for the GA runoff that could give the dems a senate majority | 21:52 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Sweden finds coronavirus in mink industry workers → https://is.gd/P2mvB9 | 21:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Dr. Fauci says vaccinating people who disregard Covid as 'fake news' could be 'a real problem': White House coronavirus advisor Dr. Anthony Fauci said convincing people who consider Covid-19 to be "fake news" to get vaccinated is "a real problem" → https://is.gd/vCdj9X | 21:58 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], the remaining possibilities are either dem majority, or tie? | 21:59 |
| ubLIX[m] | with two runoffs, if Dems win both, senate will be 50-50, but VP gets tiebreaker vote, so that will be effective majority for Dems. if Rep retain one of the two seats, it remains a Rep majority | 22:04 |
| ubLIX[m] | ^ so far as i understand it | 22:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS ONE: Analysis of biliary MICRObiota in hepatoBILIOpancreatic diseases compared to healthy people [MICROBILIO]: Study protocol: by Fernanda Sayuri do Nascimento, Milena Oliveira Suzuki, João Victor Taba, Vitoria Carneiro de Mattos, Leonardo Zumerkorn Pipek, Eugênia Machado Carneiro D’Albuquerque, Leandro Iuamoto, Alberto Meyer, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/3ZE9o2 | 22:11 |
| LjL | wish i knewwhy that matched the regex | 22:18 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], sounds like an ugh situation either way | 22:18 |
| ubLIX[m] | well, effective Dem majority is surely the path of least insanity | 22:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS ONE: Evaluation of serum MMP-2 and MMP-3, synovial fluid IL-8, MCP-1, and KC concentrations as biomarkers of stifle osteoarthritis associated with naturally occurring cranial cruciate ligament rupture in dogs: by Sarah Malek, Hsin-Yi Weng, Shannon A. Martinson, Mark C. Rochat, Romain Béraud, Christopher B. Riley The purpose of this study [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/K2QKdE | 22:23 |
| LjL | %cases world | 22:28 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nevada, US: +2416 cases (now 127875), +6 deaths (now 1953) since 17 hours ago — US: +133286 cases (now 12.0 million), +1370 deaths (now 257624) since 17 hours ago — Spain: +31596 cases (now 1.6 million), +252 deaths (now 42291) since 17 hours ago — Germany: +23676 cases (now 878209), +296 deaths (now 13788) since 17 hours ago | 22:28 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: In World, there have been 57.3 million confirmed cases (0.7% of the population) and 1.4 million deaths (2.4% of cases) as of 9 minutes ago. 937.6 million tests were performed (6.1% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.3% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.4% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=World for time series data. | 22:29 |
| LjL | gah | 22:29 |
| LjL | bot's all borked | 22:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Diseases, Conditions, Syndromes: If you must travel over Thanksgiving, here is how to minimize your COVID-19 risk → https://is.gd/dUJXg8 | 23:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Chelsea Clinton wants Trump, allies to build support for a Covid-19 vaccine: "We really will need Trump and ... his allies in the Congress to be part of the public effort, to show that they themselves are getting vaccinated," Chelsea Clinton said… → https://is.gd/1Wdrv8 | 23:25 |
| Skunny | http://www.shorenewsnetwork.com/2020/11/19/watch-german-anti-lockdown-activist-dr-andreas-noack-arrested-during-livestream/ | 23:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: December vaccine rollout possible, BioNTech CEO says: BioNTech co-founder Ugur Sahin said on Thursday the frontrunner COVID-19 vaccine his German firm is developing with Pfizer could be rolled out before the year is over in the United States or Europe. → https://is.gd/4K5wSP | 23:37 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: More Vaccine Data, in Advance of More Efficacy (84 votes) | https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/11/19/more-vaccine-data-in-advance-of-more-efficacy | https://redd.it/jx76p3 | 23:39 |
| LjL | in the united states OR europe | 23:43 |
| LjL | "The other paper is from the AstraZeneca/Oxford adenovirus vector effort. It’s a look at safety and immunogenicity in a wider spectrum of patients than has been reported so far, and the main news from it is that older patients appear to respond very similarly to the younger ones, both in antibody titers and T cells. What’s more, the vaccine actually appears to be better tolerated in the older patients (both in local reactions at the site of inject | 23:45 |
| LjL | ion and systemically)." | 23:45 |
| LjL | (while it says that SinoVac is a bit meh) | 23:46 |
| euod[m] | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnN-4evW4AU5py7?format=jpg&name=900x900 | 23:59 |
| euod[m] | ah yes, lockdown, except for the "period of festivity" | 23:59 |
| euod[m] | because from the 24th to 27th the virus is on holiday too. | 23:59 |
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