| de-facto | 2020-11-02 Denmark/DCFC-8948/2020 and 2020-11-06 mink/Denmark/mDK-151/2020 | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| LjL | don't tempt me to make the bot scrape nextstrain (i won't, too hard) | 00:00 |
| de-facto | its just awesome that now we can see all them integrated in their database there | 00:01 |
| de-facto | i tried that at the begin of Nov and they werent there yet | 00:01 |
| LjL | i thought they had been added when they published the paper | 00:02 |
| aggi | another minor detail related to vaccines: EU didn't reveal contracts with various suppliers i had read somewhere (couldn't verify yet), but EU ordered hundreds of millions of vaccination shots | 00:02 |
| de-facto | yeah probably | 00:02 |
| LjL | just as i'd expect/want them to | 00:03 |
| de-facto | yeah EU made contract with all the major producers for options on their production capacity | 00:03 |
| LjL | i mean, i'd probably rather have those contracts be *known* | 00:03 |
| aggi | at least some information leaked about the shareholder structure | 00:03 |
| LjL | but i suspect there are reasons why they're secret... ugly reasons, but reasons | 00:03 |
| de-facto | afaik already later than US/UK/AU etc, so maybe we wont get many from first batch? | 00:03 |
| LjL | de-facto, well i don't know about later but like Pfizer was heavily funded by the US government so there's no doubt they're going to prioritize the US | 00:04 |
| de-facto | so the more contracts they make the higher the likelihood that we might have some vaccines available soon | 00:05 |
| LjL | i kind of don't want to get AZ's vaccine ;( | 00:05 |
| aggi | the pfizer vaccine is the one developed by Biontec/Germany | 00:05 |
| LjL | oh i have them mixed up | 00:05 |
| de-facto | yep and Pfizer made the trial and probably production or such | 00:05 |
| LjL | Moderna is probably the one financed by the US government | 00:06 |
| de-facto | yep | 00:06 |
| LjL | well too bad since it looks like potentially the best one | 00:06 |
| de-facto | hence US will get at least half of their 50M doses | 00:06 |
| de-facto | there are also other ones in the pipeline for example CureVac another mRNA from Germany, yet they did not make phase III trials or such yet | 00:07 |
| LjL | i won't be holding my breath | 00:07 |
| de-facto | afaik EU also made contract with them | 00:07 |
| LjL | it concerns me a bit that we're probably going to get one vaccine one year, and another vaccine the next | 00:08 |
| LjL | what if they interact in unforeseen ways and, in the worst case, we get some nice ADE even though the single vaccines wouldn't cause it? | 00:08 |
| aggi | EU made contracts with the ones which were aligned with shareholder structure, my personal judgement | 00:08 |
| LjL | what do you mean by 2aligned with shareholder structure" | 00:08 |
| de-facto | why concerning, variety in vaccine concepts might be an advantage of one concept got problems, maybe another does not have it then | 00:08 |
| de-facto | it increases success probability to "bet on many different horses" | 00:09 |
| LjL | de-facto, in that sense, yes, but i mean specifically the same individual getting two different vaccines two different years (since we'll probably have to be vaccinated every year) | 00:09 |
| aggi | i mean, for example, a russian vaccine wasn't relevant to the shareholder structure, henceforth it wasn't at least proposed for approval by EU, my opinion | 00:09 |
| de-facto | well maybe that even is an requirement for example with those adenovirus vector ones | 00:09 |
| de-facto | of course governments also invested into the companies that develop vaccines, dont think US are the only ones doing that | 00:10 |
| LjL | speaking of, https://www.euronews.com/2020/11/24/russia-says-trials-have-shown-its-sputnik-v-vaccine-is-95-effective-against-covid-19 | 00:11 |
| LjL | where is the press release | 00:11 |
| LjL | (or the trial) | 00:11 |
| LjL | i don't know about the EU, but i'd like to see it | 00:11 |
| de-facto | and that makes sense since they should be able to develop the best vaccine possible in as short time as possible, hence why not give them the resources to do so? | 00:11 |
| aggi | some European countries (Poland, Hungary) seeked to discuss this with Russia, and shortly after were threatened by sanctions, in parallel to the 'corona EU budget' at stake, last weak | 00:11 |
| LjL | de-facto, but he's kinda right (if what he's saying is true) - why not seek regulatory approval for all vaccines? the rhetoric here has mostly been "be very wary of the russian vaccine" | 00:12 |
| LjL | which may be based on the fact that vaccine is actually dodgy | 00:12 |
| LjL | or it may be based on europe not wanting to give russian companies money | 00:12 |
| LjL | or a bit of both | 00:12 |
| LjL | well, there are economic sanctions against russia | 00:12 |
| de-facto | they have a website https://sputnikvaccine.com/ | 00:13 |
| LjL | a website! how novel | 00:13 |
| LjL | hmm but they don't talk about the phase 3 trial | 00:13 |
| LjL | which i assumed would be where they got a 95% efficacy figure from | 00:13 |
| LjL | ah here it is https://sputnikvaccine.com/newsroom/pressreleases/second-interim-analysis-of-clinical-trial-data-showed-a-91-4-efficacy-for-the-sputnik-v-vaccine-on-d/ | 00:14 |
| aggi | russian population themselves mostly remained sceptical, which I hadn't noticed any reporting was publicly broadcasted yet either | 00:15 |
| de-facto | https://sputnikvaccine.com/newsroom/pressreleases/second-interim-analysis-of-clinical-trial-data-showed-a-91-4-efficacy-for-the-sputnik-v-vaccine-on-d/ | 00:15 |
| aggi | it is only those vaccines mentioned in EU/Germany which are aligned to a specific shareholder structure, in my opinion | 00:15 |
| de-facto | ah you were quicker LoL | 00:17 |
| de-facto | aggi, yes since it also is dependency on reliability of a manufacturer etc | 00:18 |
| de-facto | it makes some sense, for example a country making a contract with a producer hence "betting on that horse" is dependent on that delivery really succeeds exactly the way they planed for it etc | 00:18 |
| de-facto | hence its always good to not rely on a "single possible point of failure" but to "bet on many horses" independently | 00:19 |
| de-facto | so at first they would bet their options onto the producers that they have most control over, then also they would go for the foreign ones i guess | 00:20 |
| LjL | de-facto, but what about specifically warning member states *against* using a vaccine from a foreign country | 00:21 |
| LjL | https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/eu-warns-hungary-against-use-of-russias-covid-19-vaccine/ | 00:21 |
| aggi | *week | 00:22 |
| de-facto | LjL, hmm that is problematic indeed if they cant provide scientific reasoning for such claims | 00:23 |
| LjL | "EMA said that it had received no data from Russia or Hungary on Sputnik V or any other COVID-19 vaccine." / but the FDA did say they received data from... i don't remember which of the three big vaccines, i definitely saw news of them saying the received data from one | 00:23 |
| LjL | so why has the EMA not received anything from anyone? | 00:23 |
| LjL | de-facto, well the reasoning is basically just "anything sold in the EU has to go through the EMA" | 00:23 |
| LjL | which makes sense in and of itself, but, why is the EMA not ready on the line to get data? | 00:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add Gamaleya press release about Sputnik V efficacy → https://is.gd/FE6aXs | 00:24 |
| de-facto | well they should make sure that benefits outway the risks with a scientific process, for example in Germany it would be the Paul Ehrling Institude pei.de | 00:24 |
| LjL | de-facto, if the EMA gets no hard data, they cannot disseminate it to those institutes either | 00:25 |
| LjL | you can't just take press release data at face value, no one does that (well, we do, but that's because it's all we have) | 00:25 |
| LjL | it shouldn't be all the EU has | 00:26 |
| de-facto | well of course every manufacturer would have to give them full trial disclosure and even updates on their questions, otherwise they wont get certified for usage | 00:27 |
| de-facto | like if they have a critique point it has to be addressed by the scientists monitoring the trials etc | 00:27 |
| LjL | yes but de-facto, look | 00:28 |
| LjL | let me find the FDA announcement | 00:28 |
| aggi | Putin himself was cited today he "wouldn't accept injection of an uncertified vaccine", of cause this isn't any credible source or argument worth discussing in public | 00:29 |
| LjL | well i can't find it, that's great | 00:30 |
| LjL | but i am at least finding that Pfizer will apply with the FDA for EUA | 00:30 |
| LjL | so if the FDA is actively in communication with vaccines developers why is the EMA like "we haven't received data... from any other COVID-19 vaccine" | 00:31 |
| LjL | maybe that indicates something's not quite right | 00:31 |
| de-facto | the points stands though, we need trust for participation since we cant force people for vaccinations the safety really has to be ensured in a proper way hence i do hope that they dont politicize science but rather let those institutes the freedom and also time to do their work properly | 00:32 |
| de-facto | i do trust the Paul Ehrlich Institute, if they certified a vaccine I will take it. | 00:32 |
| LjL | de-facto, ultimately though, we have a common market, so without EMA authorization (evne if the PEI or others certify it) a vaccine will either not be available in the EU, or if one country decides to get it anyway, there will be drama about it, just like now with Hungary and Sputnik V | 00:38 |
| de-facto | probably yeah makes sense | 00:39 |
| de-facto | and i agree with that they should not discard any options, the more vaccine candidates they integrate into their supply chain the better | 00:40 |
| de-facto | so if they see any problems with data reliability or such, they should work with the manufacturer on resolving those issues rather than categorically deny the opportunity for potentially a another perfectly fine solution | 00:41 |
| aggi | concerning russian testing methods: initially 50 soliders were vaccinated, and in August/2020 one of Putin's daughters followed: short fever 38°C after first shot, and since then "effective and prolonged immunity" | 00:42 |
| de-facto | yeah thats the press releases, i meant the real raw data of their trials | 00:42 |
| LjL | aggi, the press release that says 91-95% effective comes from a couple days ago though | 00:43 |
| LjL | not from the Putin daughter stunt | 00:43 |
| aggi | i stumbled upon some survey too, a majority of the russian population remained sceptical, including Putin himself who was cited today | 00:44 |
| aggi | i do not intend to mis-represent anything, but it is remarkable nonetheless that German news channels and majority of newspapers didn't report anything | 00:45 |
| LjL | so Putin was so on board with it that he vaccinated his DAUGHTER, but *now* he's skeptical? are you sure he isn't skeptical of *other* vaccines? | 00:45 |
| de-facto | basically it may be a neat pr stunt to be the "first" vaccine calling it sputnik, but in the end what really matters is proper trials and reliable data that statistically significantly can ensure benefits outway the risks | 00:46 |
| LjL | yes but we don't have that data for *any* of the vaccines, not phase 3 anyway :P | 00:47 |
| LjL | so there is no reason to differentiate right now, is there? all 4 of them have just issued a press release, a few days apart from each other, with similar data | 00:47 |
| de-facto | what i mean is that people should be able to base their trust on reliable representative trial data that transparently is observed and verified by independent institutes rather than stories about putins daughter (that is a curiosity of a press release in my book) | 00:48 |
| LjL | 90%-ish efficacy, side effects not terrible, price between $4 and $20 | 00:48 |
| LjL | okay, so we have 4 press releases *and* the story about Putin's daughter | 00:48 |
| de-facto | yes good point, we have not seen publications about the final trial data for the other vaccines too yet | 00:48 |
| de-facto | but i hope they take their time to do it properly, so i am glad to wait patiently for that to be released | 00:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Doctors say CDC should warn people the side effects from Covid vaccine shots won't be 'a walk in the park' → https://is.gd/hRkahV | 00:49 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: Do as you wish! | 00:51 |
| LjL | how many times have you posted that one already | 00:51 |
| de-facto | Brainstorm really got a scary ability to always post on topic | 00:51 |
| de-facto | like just in time when we discuss something possibly related | 00:51 |
| de-facto | again even if i have short term side effects from vaccination that are not "a walk in the park" i happily would go for it knowing i gain immunity against this nasty virus that comes with the uncertainty to potentially get extremely severe progressions | 00:53 |
| euod[m] | I always get a laugh out of people complaining about "side effects" from vaccines. | 00:57 |
| euod[m] | try taking some medical drugs and get back to me on side effects. | 00:58 |
| LjL | euod[m], to be fair i take some medical drugs and i have never gotten a FEVER from them | 00:58 |
| LjL | de-facto, but it posted that one several times already ;( | 00:58 |
| LjL | or, well, at least one | 00:59 |
| LjL | it's easy to always post on topic if you *always keep posting the same thing* :P | 00:59 |
| de-facto | yeah indeed | 00:59 |
| LjL | freenode/##covid-19/2020-11-23.log:[23:24:59] <Brainstorm> New from CNBC Health: (news): Doctors say CDC should warn people the side effects from Covid vaccine shots won't be 'a walk in the park' → https://is.gd/hRkahV | 00:59 |
| LjL | freenode/##covid-19/2020-11-24.log:[02:15:20] <Brainstorm> New from CNBC Health: (news): Doctors say CDC should warn people the side effects from Covid vaccine shots won't be 'a walk in the park' → https://is.gd/hRkahV | 00:59 |
| LjL | freenode/##covid-19/2020-11-25.log:[00:49:22] <Brainstorm> New from CNBC Health: (news): Doctors say CDC should warn people the side effects from Covid vaccine shots won't be 'a walk in the park' → https://is.gd/hRkahV | 00:59 |
| LjL | the CNBC site is the worst | 00:59 |
| LjL | s/site/rss feed/ | 01:00 |
| LjL | it pretends that each article was *just* published | 01:00 |
| euod[m] | LjL: pretty sure "fever" is on the side effect list for a lot of drugs | 01:00 |
| LjL | euod[m], just about *anything* is on the side effect list for a lot of drug | 01:01 |
| LjL | but with these vaccines it's probably more like, "expect to get a fever, 50%" | 01:01 |
| LjL | most drugs that have fever as a side effect would have it somewhere below 1% | 01:01 |
| LjL | (which is still considered "common") | 01:01 |
| de-facto | so what? a few days of a little fever is fine if thats the price for preventing suffocating from severe progressions with COVID-19 | 01:02 |
| euod[m] | a surprising number of drugs for chronic conditions include "suicide" as a listed side effect. | 01:02 |
| de-facto | and btw side effects probably wont be so bad anyhow | 01:03 |
| euod[m] | that's not due to the drug though, that's study noise. | 01:03 |
| euod[m] | people with a chronic condition is probably considering suicide if they take the drug to treat the condition or not. | 01:03 |
| LjL | euod[m], eh, they should be comparing suicide incidence with placebo | 01:04 |
| LjL | also they don't actually list it as a side effect most of the time. they list it as a special "if you develop suicidal ideals, contact..." | 01:04 |
| LjL | ideas* | 01:04 |
| euod[m] | that's the tricky bit though, lots of conditions you can't.. reasonably do placebo studies if it means denying someone the standard care. | 01:04 |
| LjL | and i don't think it's entirely *not* due to the drug, that's not been established | 01:05 |
| LjL | there are theories that it can be due to the drug getting you out of depression (if it's an antidepressive) "just enough" to make you active and able to commit suicide | 01:05 |
| LjL | i'm not saying that's true, but it's a theory that hasn't been disproven | 01:05 |
| euod[m] | I've no real argument to make about that. medical drugs are very weird in general and hard to study. | 01:06 |
| euod[m] | so much of it is subjective, or impacted by your mindset about them. | 01:07 |
| de-facto | yet i dont expect any such side effects from vaccinations | 01:08 |
| euod[m] | lots of the existing ones do suck, though | 01:09 |
| euod[m] | I stabbed myself with some metal in the garden, my immediate thought was, fuck, now it's time to get a tetanus booster. | 01:09 |
| de-facto | maybe some will feel a bit feverish or have a bit of pain on the injection side or such, honestly for me that even would calm me in a way of that i could assume the vaccine really works in "annoying" my immune reaction enough so it learns how to deal with the real thread | 01:10 |
| aggi | according to latest reports: "India, Brazil and China joined" the sputnik-V programe, and the vaccine would be produced in Hungary | 01:11 |
| euod[m] | right, I don't think there's many people who would be freaking out about the immediate impact of a covid19 vaccination. | 01:11 |
| euod[m] | means you get to go do shit. | 01:11 |
| de-facto | yeah | 01:11 |
| aggi | initially the costs were reported to be considerably lower than EU/USA flavor of this, but recently the individual dosage was taxed with $20 each | 01:12 |
| aggi | in parallel the EU-Budget including the corona aids remain under veto of Hungary and Poland | 01:13 |
| de-facto | yeah there might be an order of magnitude or more variation in vaccine dosage prices from different manufacturers | 01:13 |
| aggi | yet again, my opinion, the timeline of events is the most remarkable, the schedule of this programe, with hard Brexit ahead in January 2020 for example, among other minor events | 01:14 |
| de-facto | afaik the OX/AZ might be like 4$ and the Moderna like 40$ or such? not sure about those numbers though | 01:15 |
| euod[m] | it's all sort of.. irrelevant numbers given the other costs of this pandemic. | 01:16 |
| aggi | certainly Hungary wouldn't be in a Hurry when joining Sputnik-V to release the EU-budget, or the budget 'the healer' Joe proposed when taking seat in the white house | 01:16 |
| euod[m] | I'm hoping that we end up with some PETA like action of throwing blood over people who refuse to vaccinate. | 01:16 |
| de-facto | good point, safety and immunogenicity as well as delivery and scaling to really big supply numbers might be more impartant than those prices | 01:17 |
| euod[m] | we managed it with penicillin growing in jars. | 01:17 |
| de-facto | good point with the price not being too relevent i meant | 01:18 |
| LjL | de-facto, from what i've read (read that CNBC article), we're talking levels of fever/pain/etc that may warrant taking a day off work | 01:18 |
| LjL | so it's not just feeling a tiny bit feverish | 01:18 |
| LjL | i'm not saying that means you shouldn't take the vaccine of course :P | 01:18 |
| LjL | but the side effects may be somewhat potent, while ultimately harmless, compared to what we're used to with other vaccines | 01:19 |
| de-facto | yeah so that would be fine for me, then i download a movie and eat a pizza :) | 01:19 |
| LjL | whatever makes you happy :P | 01:20 |
| LjL | i prefer movies and pizza without fever myself | 01:20 |
| aggi | feel free to silence or kickban me from this channel, all these puzzle pieces indicate a purely politically motivated agenda | 01:20 |
| euod[m] | I mean, give everyone a Valium with the vaccine and nobody will complain. | 01:21 |
| de-facto | yeah or paracetamol | 01:21 |
| euod[m] | hard to feel shitty with a hand filled with benzos. | 01:22 |
| aggi | and this was another contradiction, if EU was in desperate need for a vaccine and russians proposed a solution three month ago already, with remarkable international support | 01:22 |
| euod[m] | I'm surprised the russian one isn't supplied by umbrella. | 01:22 |
| euod[m] | sorry, what? | 01:23 |
| LjL | aggi, rest assured my decision to quiet or ban you won't be based on whether you ask to be | 01:23 |
| LjL | i feel that some of the things you say may have some merit but you're very vague and making allegations that could be interpreted in multiple ways | 01:24 |
| de-facto | btw i strongly disagree about the pandemic being a politically motivated agenda, surely there are some aspects of it where scientific approaches get politicized (and that always turns out to be a huge mistake), but overall i would tend to conclude that management is more like a bit helpless about how to deal with the problem rather than benefiting form it or such | 01:24 |
| de-facto | i think its like a magnifying glass showing us all our problems right away because causes always will show immediately in the change of the incidence etc | 01:25 |
| euod[m] | one of the messages you see people trying to push is that it is a "plandemic", as if some group simultaneously caused every government on the planet to conform to a charade that is damaging every person in the world simultaneously with no upside whatsoever. this was originally being pushed by the US government, with statements such as "after [the election] the coronavirus will disappear". | 01:27 |
| de-facto | so its like an opportunity or chance for improvement of our structures such as healthcare systems, supply chains, biosafety etc | 01:27 |
| euod[m] | we have, naturally, noticed that the entire planet hasn't suddenly been cured of a viral infection now that the United States has had their elections, but the narrative is persisting to some degree. | 01:28 |
| de-facto | i mean we wont suffer too long from this particular virus, but the things we learn from it (asymptomatic aerosol spread etc) will remain and increase our abilities to deal with an even nastier pathogen in the future | 01:29 |
| de-facto | so from that perspective it even might be a good thing that this now demonstrates where we need to improve our systems and infrastructures etc | 01:30 |
| de-facto | just imagine this virus would have a fatality rate such as Nipah or such (was it 50%?) | 01:30 |
| euod[m] | I personally don't see it having any impact. we are a year into this and many systems have not improved to speak of, some have just got substantially worse. | 01:30 |
| euod[m] | collectively nobody is learning anything. | 01:31 |
| de-facto | i did not say that we did improve much yet (and party have to agree with you that not nearly enough was implemented yet), just that it demonstrates the weaknesses of our current system hence gives us a chance for improving it | 01:32 |
| de-facto | some countries used that opportunity more, others less | 01:33 |
| de-facto | it directly reflects on their ability to control outbreaks hence bring their incidence down | 01:34 |
| LjL | 18<22euod[m]18> collectively nobody is learning anything. ← i'm afraid i take the pessimistic stance too. many of the things being debated are, like, the same as during the Spanish flu. and we've already *shown* that we don't learn, by locking down in spring, then thinking somehow it had gone away. now it'll have "gone away" for christmas, meh | 01:36 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Martinique: +681 cases (now 5413) since 14 days ago — France: +6968 cases (now 2.2 million) since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +4576 cases (now 495640) since 22 hours ago | 01:36 |
| LjL | de-facto, consider also SARS | 01:36 |
| LjL | what did we learn from SARS? scientifically, maybe a few things | 01:37 |
| LjL | but practically, it actually made things worse | 01:37 |
| LjL | SARS was the "pandemic that didn't really happen" | 01:37 |
| LjL | and it made governments lazy about it | 01:37 |
| euod[m] | right. I still have people around me insisting that they must be doing christmas. | 01:37 |
| euod[m] | why MUST you? | 01:37 |
| de-facto | look at the countries that were affected by SARS | 01:37 |
| LjL | and now we have a real pandemic that's really happening and governments are like "OMG but we thought it was all bollocks!! what do we do now?!" | 01:37 |
| de-facto | and how they deal now with SARS-2 | 01:37 |
| de-facto | obviously those were not the EU countries... | 01:38 |
| LjL | de-facto, yes, but the countries that were affected more marginally had a negative effect basically | 01:38 |
| LjL | most countries were affected to some degrees | 01:38 |
| de-facto | from SARS? | 01:38 |
| aggi | MERS? | 01:38 |
| LjL | to some degree | 01:38 |
| de-facto | i havent noticed anything here in Germany from SARS in 2003 | 01:38 |
| LjL | in a way, you could say that SARS was an example of *successful* containment | 01:38 |
| de-facto | other than "news from distant Asia" | 01:38 |
| LjL | but when you succeed, people think, "why did we spend money? nothing happened!" | 01:38 |
| LjL | but hey, if things work well, that's it: nothing happens | 01:39 |
| LjL | de-facto, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002%E2%80%932004_SARS_outbreak#Outbreak_by_country_and_territory you didn't have 0 cases. other western countries had more than you. of course i'm not saying it was *anything* like what's happening now... but, partly, the reason it wasn't was because of successful containment | 01:40 |
| de-facto | now the countries that did have success in containing SARS obviously got a much better ability to also contain now SARS-2, hence that is either just a correlation based on different culture or climate or such, or it is really a causative correlation that they analyzed their systems and learned from the outbreak of SARS, hence were more ready to also contain SARS-2 | 01:40 |
| LjL | i'm trying to say that this has a "paradox" effect: when containment is successful, people think that efforts were useless, because "nothing happened" | 01:40 |
| LjL | even though that's precisely the goal, to make nothing happen | 01:40 |
| euod[m] | right. | 01:41 |
| euod[m] | that's why countries were hesitating closing their borders. | 01:41 |
| aggi | evidence either contradicts any such claim, or evidence was insufficient | 01:41 |
| euod[m] | when really, as soon as there was reports of a growing pandemic in china, everybody should have closed their borders on the spot. I imagine they will do that more readily in the future- but that doesn't help us today. | 01:41 |
| de-facto | interesting so how did those top countries on the SARS outbreak list perform now with containment of SARS-2? Mainland China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Canada, Singapore, Vietnam, ... | 01:42 |
| euod[m] | most of them are fine other than Canada. | 01:43 |
| de-facto | LjL, yeah its why they have that saying "there is no glory in prevention" | 01:43 |
| de-facto | yeah indeed | 01:43 |
| LjL | de-facto, yes, i think there's also a "something bias" for this but i never remember those | 01:44 |
| LjL | anyway i also agree with you, yes, the countries that were heavily affected are faring better now | 01:44 |
| LjL | but that's the thing, they were *heavily* affected, they couldn't contain it immediately (not saying it was their fault, it just happened that way) | 01:44 |
| LjL | the countries that could contain it immediately (partly thanks to the former countries, partly to the fact it was a less infectious virus than COVID) now have a negative net effect from that "learning experiene" | 01:45 |
| de-facto | yes probably because they were just lucky enough to contain it with some initial cases and not have to improve their whole system to prevent a heavy outbreak | 01:46 |
| euod[m] | the US interests me mostly because it's the only country I know of that has the means to deal with COVID19, but is belligerently choosing not to. | 01:46 |
| de-facto | yeah paradoxically it was the US in the lead of cooperations to contain disease outbreaks in Africa (Ebola ect) hence had such abilities (from a scientific standpoint) but now are among the worst affected | 01:48 |
| de-facto | something a bit similar about the EU honestly | 01:48 |
| de-facto | yet at least we do have lockdowns and demonstrated that we can bring it down, yet its still there with huge incidence, so even worst that we did not bring it down yet | 01:49 |
| aggi | de-facto: who is 'we'? | 01:49 |
| euod[m] | soon enough there'll be a high enough incidence of deaths in the US that you'll be statistically likely to know at least loss of life related to the pandemic. | 01:50 |
| de-facto | i meant EU countries are able to bring it down yet allow it to get out of control again and again | 01:50 |
| de-facto | im in EU/Germany | 01:50 |
| euod[m] | assuming 0.08% of the population has died, and that most people know around 50 people (which came from some study years ago). | 01:50 |
| LjL | have some more depressing news: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=it&tl=en&u=https://www.punto-informatico.it/immuni-frena-10-milioni-download/ | 01:50 |
| euod[m] | eh. | 01:51 |
| euod[m] | so I've been monitoring the filter output of my local COVID19 tracing app. | 01:51 |
| de-facto | yeah saturation effect | 01:51 |
| euod[m] | I'm not convinced that anybody would ever have seen one of the exposure notifications. | 01:51 |
| LjL | euod[m], hmm? | 01:52 |
| LjL | the italian app sent out like 2000 | 01:52 |
| LjL | which is not a lot, but definitely more than 0 | 01:52 |
| LjL | https://www.immuni.italia.it/dashboard.html | 01:52 |
| de-facto | oh btw that colleague of mine with the 13 "low risk contact" now got a decrement of one each day | 01:52 |
| LjL | well, a lot more than 2000 | 01:53 |
| LjL | de-facto, O.o | 01:53 |
| euod[m] | LjL: so for the apple/google system I don't get much information by design, but I'm seeing about 4000 keys a day being marked as suspect. each key represents 15 minutes of an infected person. | 01:53 |
| LjL | de-facto, so in Italy, Immuni has had a problem with under-notifying people, it was widely publicized that a bug *stopped* some notifications from being sent. Corona-Warn-App overnotifies instead? | 01:53 |
| de-facto | he sends me every day like 13, 12, 11, ... | 01:53 |
| LjL | de-facto, i suppose it's meant to go down after 14 days or so, but he got them all at the same time, didn't he? | 01:54 |
| de-facto | here are the stats about the Germany Corona-Warn.app https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/WarnApp/Archiv_Kennzahlen/Kennzahlen_20112020.pdf?__blob=publicationFile | 01:55 |
| euod[m] | LjL: I don't think that even less than 10% of people who are being reported as infected are doing so with the apple-google tracing mechanism, but again it's by design that I can't draw solid conclusions from this data. | 01:55 |
| aggi | anyone had noted if fever measurements were taken in schools and kindergardens at least? | 01:56 |
| de-facto | LjL, yes they all appeared on the same day (probably because someone marked his beacons positive) and i guess he collected one of them each day, so now they are wearing off one by one each day | 01:56 |
| LjL | euod[m], but what you were saying is that you doubted anyone had *been notified* at all? | 01:56 |
| LjL | yet if 4000 keys have been published, at least as many contacts should have been notified | 01:56 |
| euod[m] | no, that's not the case. that's 4000 keys (person, for 15 minutes) that may match with someone else. | 01:57 |
| LjL | aggi, here the conclusion was basically that since we didn't have enough thermometers, it was more dangerous to get every kid crammed together waiting for their temperature scan, than to just avoid doing it :\ | 01:57 |
| aggi | LjL: which country was that? | 01:58 |
| euod[m] | if I sit at home for 2 weeks, then I report positive, that's 1344 keys that will be published as suspect in the system. there's no guarantee that any of them will match, in the case of my example none of them will. | 01:58 |
| euod[m] | so 4000 keys a day could be 3 people sitting at home for 2 weeks. | 01:58 |
| LjL | euod[m], well, okay, i don't know about your app, but in the Italian app, when someone receives a notification, the app sends that information upstream for "analytics" (privacy-wise, a somewhat dubious choice, but that's what it does). so it's known for a fact that at least 78638 notifications were sent as of today (really more, because it only sends this on phones that can provide hardware-backed attestation) | 01:58 |
| euod[m] | LjL: ok right, that's unique to the italian one I think. | 01:58 |
| aggi | italy. | 01:59 |
| LjL | euod[m], okay, but i can only presume that apps in other countries have behaved similarly, since they're all based on the Google+Apple system, and Italy hasn't had much higher participation than other countries | 01:59 |
| LjL | aggi, yes | 01:59 |
| de-facto | so German App: 22.8M downloads (12.4M Ggl + 10.4M Apl), 453024 hotline calls (2.8k daily), 3.9M test results digitally delivered, 74552 positive tests shared via app (56% of potentially shareable positive results) | 02:00 |
| euod[m] | LjL: right, to back up my claims a little bit I actually did something sort of dumb and walked around with some RF gear and a laptop in my backpack. went to the park, past a shopping mall entrance. | 02:00 |
| de-facto | btw for schools there was the study done in Bavaria Germany | 02:00 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.cell.com/med/fulltext/S2666-6340%2820%2930020-9 | 02:00 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.cell.com: A Public Health Antibody Screening Indicates a 6-Fold Higher SARS-CoV-2 Exposure Rate than Reported Cases in Children: Med | 02:00 |
| LjL | de-facto, in Italy it turned out at some point that most regions weren't actually providing the *codes* for people to share their positive tests via the app | 02:01 |
| euod[m] | LjL: this is basically useless to do due to the key rotation, other than that I can capture the beacons with my own software and just get a general idea if anybody else is using the system at all. I didn't really find many beacons at all unfortunately, other than my own. | 02:01 |
| LjL | euod[m], you don't reeeally need to use RF gear and a laptop :P | 02:01 |
| LjL | %fdroid UUID | 02:01 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, UUID 0xFD6F Scanner 0.9.1.14 (com.emacberry.uuid0xfd6fscan) in https://f-droid.org/repo: Scan for BluetoothLE Beacons with UUID 0xFD6F - updated 2020-10-28, see https://github.com/marq24/UUID0xFD6FTracer | 02:01 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Last time I checked, not all indexes could be downloaded! | 02:01 |
| LjL | euod[m], when *i* walked around with this, i found many beacons | 02:01 |
| LjL | but... okay, i guess people do use the app more in Italy after all? | 02:01 |
| LjL | yet the downloads are 10 million which i think is proportionally similar to germany | 02:02 |
| euod[m] | LjL: yeah I've much better RF gear than a cellphone has :P | 02:02 |
| de-facto[m] | hmm my bouncer does it reconnection dance again, i wait for it to settle | 02:02 |
| euod[m] | LjL: that's neat though, I wasn't aware anybody had done it. | 02:03 |
| LjL | euod[m], fair enough :P but i was getting easily 15 or so beacons (my phone has good BT hardware, i've checked against other phones i have) when being close to some outdoors dining venues and so | 02:03 |
| euod[m] | I might have to do it again and see. | 02:03 |
| LjL | euod[m], are you aware that there is a whole open source implementation of the Google framework by microG? | 02:03 |
| LjL | euod[m], it does not give you much information by design, but, well, the code is there | 02:03 |
| euod[m] | sure but I wanted to use my own fancy stuff :) | 02:03 |
| LjL | :P | 02:04 |
| LjL | just checking | 02:04 |
| euod[m] | this was mostly an excuse to wander around with bits of technology rather than genuine research. | 02:04 |
| LjL | i won't do it again and see | 02:04 |
| LjL | because... i think there is no "[x] Testing usage of the Immuni app" reason for leaving home on the police form :P | 02:04 |
| LjL | when i got 15 beacons and such, we were still allowed to go out! | 02:04 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Why Oxford’s positive COVID vaccine results are puzzling scientists (80 votes) | https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03326-w | https://redd.it/k0f8ij | 02:05 |
| euod[m] | yeah, the only reason I did it the first time was that I was confident my range for receiving was well beyond the outdoor transmission range. | 02:05 |
| euod[m] | transmission of COVID19 not.. 2.4Ghz. | 02:05 |
| LjL | euod[m], anyway, quibbling on exact numbers aside, even in Italy which would be "successful" apparently compared to where you are, 78000 notifications is like... in one day, we do around 200000 tests. in one day, France got around 85000 positives. so 78000 *total* notifications (of being a contact, not necessarily of being positive of course) isn't really much at all, in the grand scheme of things | 02:06 |
| euod[m] | oh yeah that sounds like it's useful. | 02:07 |
| aggi | the oxford reports are remarkable too, if(?!) applied dosage was highly critical, this indicated the efficacy of vaccination was rather narrow, depending on body weight for example or however an effective dosage had to be estimated then | 02:10 |
| LjL | the people there on r/covid19 don't sound too thrilled at the "good" finding about the half-dose AZ vaccine | 02:11 |
| LjL | aggi, yeah, i think it's not a great finding overall | 02:11 |
| LjL | the one major advantage of that vaccine right now is it's cost and ease of transportation (which also means "cost") | 02:11 |
| LjL | but efficacy... maybe not so much, or not so certain anyway | 02:11 |
| LjL | yuriwho has said for a long time he'd rather get an mRNA vaccine, well before the current data came out. not that he always automatically makes the right guesses, but, if AZ really turns out to be a little "meh", i think he kinda called it :P | 02:13 |
| aggi | at least the russians and oxford appear somewhat honest with their reported results, and that's the only good news i had read so far concerning a vaccine | 02:13 |
| LjL | so you think Pfizer and Moderna are lying? | 02:14 |
| de-facto | i am really curious to see the data from the weekly swabs of the Ox/AZ trial in England | 02:15 |
| de-facto | the only ones so far that might have done something similar to screening, possibly, hence my curiosity | 02:16 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Ivermectin as an adjunct treatment for hospitalized adult COVID-19 patients: A randomized multi-center clinical trial (81 votes) | https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-109670/v1 | https://redd.it/k0ceh5 | 02:17 |
| de-facto | also id like to see that data about their half-dose/full dose 90% efficiency | 02:17 |
| de-facto | I am not sure the numbers are directly comparable so i would not go like "meh" on their trials at all | 02:18 |
| LjL | de-facto, read the r/covid19 thread... the thing is not going "meh" for the sake of it, but more the fact that they were not expecting the half-dose to be better than the full-dose, so they have fewer participant under that regimen, which may well mean that 90% is just a statistical artifact and it's really more in line with 70% | 02:19 |
| de-facto | in my opininon its just too early to draw conclusions, all we have so far are a few press releases that look quite promising overall | 02:20 |
| LjL | of course we'll only know the actual statistical confidence when the trial is out, but we do have some numbers about participants | 02:20 |
| de-facto | might be the case indeed | 02:20 |
| de-facto | yeah im not so much of a reddit fan to be honest, but yeah i take that point could make sense, yet its all speculation until we see some data | 02:21 |
| LjL | i'm not drawing conclusions, but if i were told "you can get only one vaccine, and you can only get it NOW. choose which!", right now i wouldn't say that one, i would say Pfizer or Moderna | 02:21 |
| LjL | maybe i'd be wrong, but that's how i see the odds right now | 02:21 |
| aggi | why? | 02:21 |
| LjL | de-facto, r/covid19 is a "strictly scientific sub" fwiw, they don't allow any claim that's not backed up by something more-scientific-than-a-newspaper | 02:22 |
| de-facto | ok thats nice | 02:22 |
| aggi | ok, if i had missed any relevant fact don't feel urged to lecture me, all i followed was public TV reports and newspaper | 02:22 |
| LjL | aggi, because 90-to-95% is higher than 70%, and in the Oxford case, we really don't have a reason YET to cherry-pick the 90% in their lower-dose (but also lower-participant) trial arm | 02:22 |
| LjL | aggi, i'm partly talking just gut feeling. ultimately de-facto is right, the actual data are not out i.e. the papers are not published, so it's speculation | 02:23 |
| de-facto | thats what i mean, those numbers are not necessarily directly comparable because their study protocols are not the same | 02:23 |
| de-facto | e.g. for testing and all that | 02:23 |
| LjL | that's why i'm saying "if" i were forced to pick a vaccine today | 02:23 |
| LjL | in reality, i will be... forced to pick whatever vaccine Italy picks, later :P | 02:23 |
| aggi | but this 90% isn't any valuable data concerning a vaccine, at least a duration had to be mentioned how long it was effective for whom and against what, if at all | 02:23 |
| LjL | aggi, yes, Moderna had very high antibody titers | 02:24 |
| LjL | we don't know how long they'll be effective, all the trials have mostly have similar lengths so far | 02:24 |
| LjL | but Moderna is what i'd pick based on antibody titers and the fact it appears to protect the upper respiratory airways as well | 02:24 |
| LjL | (which according to yuriwho is due to nothing special, just... having higher antibody titers) | 02:24 |
| aggi | antibody is unspecific, and immune system cannot be qualified alone by such either | 02:25 |
| LjL | yes | 02:25 |
| LjL | but that's the information we have so far | 02:25 |
| LjL | to know if any of these vaccine lasts a year, we'll have to wait a year | 02:25 |
| de-facto | i mean just look at how quickly the results changed: the Pfizer trial just published 90% then Moderna came with 94.5% so Pfizer updated with the newest data available to 95% etc. those are not just 5% improvement if you think about it its not 1/20th but its 1/2x because their positives went from 100%-90% = 10% to 100%-95% = 5% | 02:26 |
| aggi | no, there's more information: vitamin-d for example | 02:26 |
| LjL | but the fact it's protective of the upper respiratory airways, i think that's just kind of important | 02:26 |
| LjL | oh lord what are you about to say about vitamin D now | 02:26 |
| aggi | but hey, fever measurements and vitamin-d would be cheap | 02:26 |
| LjL | de-facto, heh, to be fair though, Pfizer always said ">90%", not "90%" from the start :P | 02:26 |
| LjL | aggi, how the hell does fever or vitamin D measure whether you will have COVID in the future | 02:27 |
| de-facto | ok fair, what i meant is that those are preliminary press releases | 02:27 |
| aggi | i wouldn't know, all i know is what public TV and newspapers report, and most of it is beyond what i would want to comment with any vocabulary anymore, including EU and related | 02:27 |
| LjL | de-facto, they have a PR department too. Pfizer were the first to release preliminary data, so they could afford the "scientific" luxury of being like "well, we don't have a good enough CI to say it's 95% yet, so let's just say >90%, we'll make big news anyway". then Moderna was like "okay, we don't have enough CI to say exactly 94.3%, but we sure have to say something higher than Pfizer" | 02:28 |
| LjL | aggi, you keep throwing allegations in the air, and then refuse to elaborate | 02:29 |
| LjL | if you think that'll stop you from being banned, you're wrong | 02:29 |
| LjL | at some point i'll just get tired of the tactic | 02:29 |
| de-facto | oh and btw we just dont know about the time development of immunity by vaccination yet, maybe it will stay long time, maybe it will protect also from replications in upper airways (preventing transmission), maybe it might wear off and later only protect from severe progressions etc | 02:29 |
| LjL | aggi, so anyway i'll say something: if by "fever" you mean "let's see if people have symptoms compatible with COVID-19", well, they definitely did that. as to vitamin D, there has been an *association* between low vitamin D and many diseases shown, but in many cases, it's highly suspected that it is not *causation*, but simply that vitamin D and frailty go together | 02:30 |
| LjL | and i'm not saying that's necessarily the case, in fact i've seen some studies about vitamin D and COVID that make vitamin D look sort of promising | 02:30 |
| LjL | i'll go further and say that i've told my family to keep taking it, since they were already taking it for other reasons | 02:31 |
| LjL | but realistically, we have no idea about whether giving people vitamin D is any use to prevent COVID at least unless they are deficient in it to begin with, and even then | 02:31 |
| de-facto | about detecting fever and correlating that to the pandemic, RKI in Germany got a quite successful approach with pulse vs step monitoring with smartwatches https://corona-datenspende.de/science/en/monitor/ | 02:31 |
| LjL | de-facto, yeah these things will be important because i feel a vaccine that doesn't provide herd immunity won't make us return to really any normalcy that people would call such | 02:32 |
| de-facto | note that this is not a black and white situation though, it smoothly will transition so any prevention of replication in the upper respiratory tract already is helpful | 02:32 |
| LjL | de-facto, yeah that's interesting, the problem is, the way aggi says things, i don't even know what he means by fever. whether people had COVID? or maybe he meant that a *vaccine* should cause fever, to show signs of being effective? (which is a flawed reasoning IMO, but a possible one to make) - he just drop things there and then doesn't elaborate, which is kind of annoying. i also understand it since i quieted him the first time he came here, so he may | 02:33 |
| LjL | not want to elaborate for that reason, but, eh. | 02:33 |
| aggi | i simply remain careful since i am no medical expert, expert for some month of my civic duty in german red cross geriatric hospiptal, 20 years ago | 02:34 |
| aggi | except for | 02:34 |
| aggi | and fever often is an indicator for of a required immune system response | 02:34 |
| LjL | aggi, in my opinion "throwing things out there" and then not elaborating is not being careful. if you put a bug in people's ear about vitamin D and then do not explain, it doesn't make it any better, medically speaking, than explaining what you actually think about vitamin D | 02:34 |
| LjL | aggi, well, then it's just your luck that all three vaccines (don't know about the russian one) cause fever as a common side effect | 02:35 |
| LjL | but... we don't know to what extent (i.e. what %) | 02:35 |
| LjL | they sure like to tease us with these press releases, uh? | 02:35 |
| de-facto | so heh that looks pretty good, they improved their algo again and got nice correlation with the incidence https://corona-datenspende.de/science/en/reports/improved-method/ | 02:36 |
| LjL | uh | 02:37 |
| LjL | i understand why the official data have a weekly pattern | 02:37 |
| LjL | but why does the data from watches have a weekly pattern? O.o | 02:37 |
| de-facto | hmm maybe because of weekly schedule of people's activity? | 02:38 |
| de-facto | they do use step counts vs heart rate | 02:38 |
| LjL | hmm, yeah | 02:38 |
| LjL | they don't exactly explain in that post, except for | 02:38 |
| LjL | "Some of you may have noticed that the fever curve changed significantly a few days ago. Noteably, the curves now appear smoother, without the charactistic up-and-down modulations that were previously seen on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. The" | 02:38 |
| LjL | but i'm confused because i *see* these modulations in the new data O.o | 02:39 |
| de-facto | yeah indeed the non-smoothed data got some peaks | 02:39 |
| de-facto | but what i find really interesting is that it seems to be ahead of the incidence | 02:40 |
| LjL | also not to cool your enthusiasm but let's remember that predictive effect actually has to be measured on predictions in the end - if they can fit past data so that the algorithm fits past data better, that's encouraging but not a promise yet | 02:40 |
| LjL | also | 02:40 |
| de-facto | like it could be a more "up to date" monitor than only data from testing itself | 02:40 |
| LjL | am i color blind, or are they bad in their choice of colors | 02:40 |
| de-facto | yes of course they optimize their algo to predict the known incidence from the input data, thats kinda of the point | 02:41 |
| LjL | de-facto, well... if so, that's good news and bad news: good, because the incidence goes down, bad, because after going down, it stays linear instead of going down more | 02:41 |
| LjL | de-facto, yes i'm not saying they shouldn't do it, just that it can create the impression of more accuracy than reality | 02:41 |
| de-facto | the thing is they can assume that parameters dont change abruptly hence also their predictions from the data will correlate with (future unknown) incidence | 02:42 |
| de-facto | clicking at the federal states below the curves show a clear decline in the fever curve, so maybe we might see that maximum manifesting in the incidence peaks awsell in a few days? | 02:43 |
| aggi | at least some more good news, which wasn't reported yet either, that cheap fever measurements would suffice most often, and scarce test capacity could be used when required elsewhere | 02:43 |
| LjL | afaik fever isn't *extremely* frequent as a symptom | 02:44 |
| LjL | anosmia was actually found more frequent than fever in a study iirc | 02:44 |
| LjL | and... before tests were widely available (and in "quick" situations like airports, etc), fever measurements were used *a lot* | 02:45 |
| de-facto | careful though about potential bias eg. how they choose their cohort to represent the majority | 02:45 |
| LjL | de-facto, yeah i'm not saying it definitely is more frequent than fever, just as an example to show fever isn't so very frequent | 02:46 |
| LjL | i think there are people who progress to severe stages without any fever at all | 02:46 |
| de-facto | hmm i doubt that they could have severe stages without fever (because pneumonia surely would cause fever) | 02:47 |
| LjL | also, as usual, fever means you're symptomatic (by definition), but we know that asymptomatic spread is significant | 02:47 |
| de-facto | but maybe they did not had fever in their early stages indeed | 02:47 |
| aggi | since often mild fever is simply ignored | 02:47 |
| de-facto | yes some people never will have any symptoms yet spread the virus | 02:48 |
| LjL | the question is "is it many enough to matter if you're just testing for fever", and the answer i know is... yes. have i missed some particular study that hints the other way? | 02:48 |
| de-facto | 44% of infections happen prior to onset of symptoms (if they ever appear) etc | 02:48 |
| de-facto | i think it makes sense to monitor body temp because every case suspecting to be infectious will hopefully change behavior to prevent spreading | 02:49 |
| de-facto | if i would think i have a fever i would isolate | 02:49 |
| de-facto | so its pretty much as with the app then: its not a game changer but it helps with its contributions | 02:50 |
| aggi | the app isn't any game changer at all, fever measurements could be at least | 02:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Texas food bank doubles amount of people it serves amid coronavirus pandemic: Eric Cooper, CEO of the San Antonio Food Bank in Texas, said that they now feed double the amount of people they used to compared to pre-pandemic levels. → https://is.gd/H5l8ck | 02:50 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for New Zealand: +8 cases (now 2039) since 23 hours ago | 02:50 |
| de-facto | every little measure contributing will sum up to a whole of containment measures impact, so if something as simple as measureing fever helps, why not? | 02:50 |
| LjL | aggi, it's illegal in Italy to leave your home if you have more than 37.5°C, and i've definitely seen a few shops with a thermal scanner at the entrance | 02:52 |
| LjL | so if the game is to be changed, some countries just didn't get the memo | 02:52 |
| aggi | de-facto: i didn't argue for any unspecific "containment measure" | 02:53 |
| aggi | in Belarus they took fever measurements before people were allowed to enter soccer stadiums, month ago already | 02:53 |
| LjL | in Belarus, of all places | 02:53 |
| LjL | definitely not in any other country | 02:53 |
| de-facto | hmm they should not have soccer stadiums open with prevalence of active carriers in my opinion | 02:54 |
| LjL | jesus christ, temperature is taken in a TON of countries before entering events | 02:54 |
| LjL | (that too) | 02:54 |
| de-facto | thats exactly the problem, if people start thinking this is a "reliable method" to exclude infections, its just not capable of doing that, again 44% of infections occur prior to any symptoms, with a peak one day before symptom onset | 02:55 |
| de-facto | so measuring fever can be helpful but is completely not suited to replace antigen quicktests or such | 02:55 |
| aggi | in comparison germany continued with their soccer events up until the show stopped entirely | 02:56 |
| aggi | so, the alternative was to take fever measurements or no soccer events at all | 02:56 |
| aggi | but this decision was made long ago already and antibody tests won't change that either anymore, i suspect | 02:56 |
| de-facto | nope Germany did not have full soccer stadiums, they played with RT-PCR tested soccer players in empty statiums and only broadcasted them on TV | 02:57 |
| aggi | November 2019, carneval season, the madhouse show continued for several weeks | 02:57 |
| de-facto | they were discussing about concepts of how to allow guests in soccer statiums though, e.g. with antigen quicktests | 02:58 |
| de-facto | Carnival and Christmas market were canceled here | 02:59 |
| de-facto | months ago already | 02:59 |
| de-facto | same for Octoberfest, they already canceled that in advance | 02:59 |
| de-facto | would have been insane to have that, it would have caused a GIGANTIC spike in infections | 03:00 |
| LjL | according to this study https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2765184 only 30% of people *presenting at hospital* with symptoms and then confirmed with COVID actually had fever. i was in search of something about *severe* patients without a fever, because i seemed to remember something about, but i couldn't find that so far. however, i think if 30% of patients who get bad enough to go to hospital *don't have a fever*, then temperature scans, | 03:00 |
| LjL | while potentially useful, are definitely no substitute for tests. at all. | 03:00 |
| aggi | November 2019? it wasn't. and all else was at least on year to late to take action, not to mention winter season 2017/18 | 03:00 |
| aggi | *one | 03:01 |
| LjL | okay that's enough for today. keep bringing up this bogus "november 2019" thing without any backing, and you'll keep being quieted for a day. | 03:01 |
| LjL | it's not like i didn't warn you about this very specific thing last time. | 03:02 |
| euod[m] | the claim is that the pandemic started 3 years ago right? | 03:02 |
| LjL | something like that | 03:02 |
| LjL | but i'm not actually *sure* | 03:02 |
| LjL | he handwaves something about "coronavirus was known fro the 1960s" | 03:02 |
| LjL | as if "coronavirus" is one thing | 03:02 |
| euod[m] | I mean, coronaviruses as a family? sure. | 03:03 |
| LjL | yeah | 03:03 |
| LjL | it seems like a tactic IMO | 03:03 |
| LjL | the claim is not entirely "wrong", because, yes, the coronavirus family is known since the 60s | 03:03 |
| euod[m] | it's the same thing you're seeing a lot of in US news, where there's some slight amount of fact to a statement that's then used to justify something wildly inappropriate. | 03:03 |
| LjL | but then he never clarifies the claim *enough* for anyone to be sure he's definitely spouting bollocks. anyone except tinwhiskers who i believe is already quite fed up with him, i think. | 03:04 |
| LjL | then he starts saying the 2017/2018 flu season was actually coronavirus (which coronavirus? COVID-19? another coronavirus? he never really clarifies) | 03:04 |
| LjL | and that "if we had no tests back then, how could we know it wasn't?" | 03:04 |
| LjL | which is unfalsifiable but also nonsensical | 03:04 |
| euod[m] | well we do have cases where back-testing of samples meant for lung cancer could exist, so I'm sure there's samples from many years prior in storage that would have RNA fragments in them.. if that were a meaningful story. | 03:05 |
| euod[m] | even if it were somehow true, it doesn't change anything in the least. there is still a huge impact of COVID19 today regardless of where it came from and when. | 03:06 |
| LjL | i'm sorry de-facto, i know you prefer to keep debating with anyone and just keep trying to "join forces" as much as possible, i feel bad about it but also i've stopped my fingers from typing /cs quiet a few times already | 03:08 |
| LjL | euod[m], well, knowing things always changes things to some extent | 03:08 |
| LjL | and i find it entirely possible that COVID-19 was around in China, but also in Italy, possibly elsewhere, in November 2019 | 03:08 |
| LjL | that's not the problem with it | 03:08 |
| LjL | taking it for granted and implying some kind of conspiracy (without making it clear) is the problem with it | 03:09 |
| de-facto | i already did say everything i think about this point, hence i refuse to comment on it again, i dont want to sound like a broken record | 03:09 |
| de-facto | right now we have to deal with the situation as it is anyhow | 03:10 |
| de-facto | making the best out of it | 03:10 |
| LjL | you don't have to | 03:10 |
| LjL | i'm just saying that when we have things like "<aggi> which has almost zero relevance, given the fact Nov. 2019 millions celebrated Karneval and no tests were taken at all." connected with "<aggi> including the fact during the 'deadliest pandemic in 30 years' 2017/18 winter season already no corona tests at all were taken, and in Nov 2019 germans continued celebrating carneval, millions densely crowded, and no tests taken either" | 03:11 |
| LjL | that goes too far into the rabbit hole | 03:11 |
| LjL | it's a completely different thing from saying "there are some studies that show virus was in the sewers in 2019" | 03:11 |
| de-facto | yeah | 03:11 |
| de-facto | btw there were some suggestions to take testing samples in the sewers of schools to test for prevalence there | 03:12 |
| de-facto | because young kids tend to be asymptomatic and also shed more virus via their feces, yet i am not sure if that would work | 03:14 |
| de-facto | if i remember correctly i always avoided to use school toilets at all costs because they were just disgusting | 03:15 |
| LjL | oh my | 03:15 |
| LjL | i'll overshare | 03:15 |
| LjL | i've never went to the bathroom at school | 03:15 |
| LjL | ever | 03:15 |
| LjL | > i've never went | 03:15 |
| de-facto | yeah thats what i mean | 03:15 |
| LjL | good thing i've always only stayed at school for 5 hours a day, not full time :P | 03:16 |
| de-facto | so maybe that method would be flawed then in representing real prevalence in schools | 03:16 |
| LjL | these days i don't think that's even possible anymore, everyone stays in the afternoon, at least on some days | 03:16 |
| LjL | de-facto, lol, it would only be flawed if COVID is biased towards weirdos :P | 03:16 |
| de-facto | hmm im not sure i think its not too uncommon to avoid public toilets | 03:17 |
| LjL | i don't think i've known anyone else in my classes who *never* used the toilets :P | 03:18 |
| LjL | although... i guess it's not something you write on your forehead | 03:18 |
| de-facto | so while this might work in a city with people at their own homes, it might not work when restricting to areas where people could have a choice to not use public toilets | 03:18 |
| LjL | de-facto, but why would those particular people be more likely to shed virus? i don't see much possible connection | 03:19 |
| LjL | if anything, they are more squeamish people, who as such, may be *less* likely to get infected | 03:19 |
| LjL | hopefully! | 03:19 |
| de-facto | no i just think people in general dont like to use public toilets at all | 03:20 |
| de-facto | hence viral shedding there is not representative at atll | 03:20 |
| LjL | well but it's not like you're going to be able to measure the actual *amount* of people who were infected by measuring the virus in the sewers (i think?) | 03:21 |
| LjL | so you'd only have an indicator of whether infections are spiking | 03:21 |
| LjL | which could be useful even if the sample is less than "everyone" | 03:21 |
| de-facto | like one would have to broaden the sampling area from sewers to an area were people usually stay multiple days | 03:21 |
| LjL | anyway, in the EU they are so dead-set on keeping schools open, they won't even take results about this into account, i think | 03:21 |
| de-facto | i have heard that idea in a podcast but for above reasons i think it wont work | 03:22 |
| LjL | i think italy is doing the right thing, by keeping elementary schools open, and the rest closed. i wish they did that in all of italy, not just the red areas, and the rest of the EU thought "hey that's a good idea" | 03:23 |
| LjL | and note i don't often say italy does the right thing :P | 03:23 |
| de-facto | yeah actually im very curious about what they will decide about their winter strategy in Germany today | 03:23 |
| de-facto | they could not even get consensus if masks usage in all federal states at schools should be mandatory yet, coz idk dont make the kids unhappy or something stupid like that | 03:24 |
| de-facto | in the classes i mean | 03:24 |
| de-facto | then they discussed about if they would forbid fireworks and such unrelevant things, i am a bit concerned that they actually will focus on the important points | 03:25 |
| LjL | oh we don't have mandatory masks at schools (where they're open) :( | 03:26 |
| de-facto | but we will see today what they will conclude | 03:26 |
| LjL | i mean, they're sort of mandatory but not really | 03:26 |
| darsie | Austria's curve seems to come down. | 03:26 |
| LjL | when they sit down they can take them off, basically | 03:26 |
| darsie | Nice dip yesterday. | 03:26 |
| de-facto | darsie, very nice | 03:26 |
| LjL | %cases austria | 03:26 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: In Austria, there have been 254710 confirmed cases (2.9% of the population) and 2577 deaths (1.0% of cases) as of 15 hours ago. 2.9 million tests were performed (8.7% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.3% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 1.4% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Austria for time series data. | 03:26 |
| LjL | that's a pretty high prevalence | 03:26 |
| de-facto | darsie, i wish we had a proper lockdown here in Germany too | 03:26 |
| de-facto | i very much wish we had that too | 03:27 |
| LjL | you wish we had a high prevalence? O.o | 03:27 |
| LjL | s/we/you/ | 03:27 |
| de-facto | no | 03:27 |
| de-facto | i mean i wish we had proper containment measures in place | 03:27 |
| de-facto | so prevalence goes down | 03:27 |
| LjL | lol, okay, you said it twice so it seemed the second one was responding to me :P | 03:28 |
| de-facto | darsie, how strict is it in reality in Austria? | 03:28 |
| LjL | de-facto, it's always uncanny how similar in time these curves are in the end... https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Italy;Austria&byPopulation=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes look at the doubling times too, the last part of the graph... | 03:29 |
| darsie | Some businesses closed or restricted. We can go out for several reasons including physical and mental relaxation. I'm not sure about who we can meet and if that's constitutional. | 03:30 |
| de-facto | "WHO European Region COVID19 Subnational Explorer" https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/3a056fc8839d47969ef59949e9984a71 <-- has total cases as well as 7-day and 14-day cases and incidence, collated for subnational regions from various European sources | 03:32 |
| de-facto | but no private meetings in Austria etc right? | 03:32 |
| de-facto | https://www.austria.info/en/service-and-facts/coronavirus-information | 03:34 |
| de-facto | https://media-austria-info.azureedge.net/cms-uploads-prod/default/0002/71/cd1c412a9614461373fc5cb579fcb45d6d1ac6b1.pdf | 03:34 |
| de-facto | hmm maybe less strict than i thought, schools open and nothing about private meeting | 03:36 |
| de-facto | also i am puzzled about that "people have to distance 1 meter apart from each others" rule. that sounds like not enough at all | 03:37 |
| de-facto | like masks only indoors but outdoors 1 meter should already be enough to prevent people from spitting at each others? | 03:38 |
| de-facto | if they would require proper FFP2 masks ok then they would target aerosol, but they seem to only talk about "masks" which also include those community cotton masks | 03:39 |
| de-facto | but yeah its very nice that incidence begins to come down, how does it relate to testing numbers takein in AUstria during the lockdown? | 03:41 |
| de-facto | nice so it seems positivity rate goes down aswell https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Austria&byPopulation=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes&legacy=no | 03:43 |
| de-facto | i.e. number of tests increases while number of positive results decreases every day | 03:43 |
| de-facto | indicating it should be a real effect if targeting of testing remained somewhat comparable during the time window in question | 03:44 |
| de-facto | very nice :) | 03:44 |
| metreo1 | .cases Canada | 04:00 |
| Brainstorm | metreo1: In Canada, there have been 342444 confirmed cases (0.9% of the population) and 11618 deaths (3.4% of cases) as of an hour ago. 11.0 million tests were performed (3.1% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.0% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 4.1% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Canada for time series data. | 04:00 |
| euod[m] | .cases United States | 04:10 |
| Brainstorm | euod[m]: In US, there have been 13.0 million confirmed cases (3.9% of the population) and 265891 deaths (2.1% of cases) as of an hour ago. 184.1 million tests were performed (7.0% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.1% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.4% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 04:10 |
| euod[m] | 4%. | 04:12 |
| euod[m] | I assume at least half of all cases aren't reported. | 04:13 |
| euod[m] | so maybe what, 10% of the population at least? | 04:13 |
| de-facto | last time i checked for us i think it was like 2,7-3,0 dark number at least for US | 04:22 |
| de-facto | so if it was 3x it would be 3x4% = 12% | 04:22 |
| de-facto | so according to https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ there currently would be like 5M *active* cases in the USA | 04:24 |
| de-facto | thats 1.5% of the population of all of US | 04:24 |
| de-facto | hence when multiplying that by 3x it would be like 4.5% or 1/21 people currently having an active infection prior to Thanksgiving | 04:26 |
| de-facto | when is that? tomorrow? | 04:27 |
| de-facto | google said 2020-11-26 | 04:27 |
| de-facto | yet it looks like the time derivative (normalized to generation time; the reproduction number) of the time derivative (daily incidence of new additional cases) of total cases in USA came down to R~1.09 | 04:33 |
| de-facto | http://metrics.covid19-analysis.org/ | 04:33 |
| de-facto | hence the shy indication of heading into a plateauing endemic R~1 (where the incidence becomes constant with time hence have plateau or maximum) might be right yet at very high level | 04:34 |
| de-facto | so hopefully Thanksgiving wont break that shy trend | 04:34 |
| euod[m] | depends how much people travel | 04:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: When will the world reach ‘herd immunity'? Citi economists weigh in: Analysis by Citi Research showed that the economic benefits of vaccination may not kick in until late 2021, when "herd immunity" is expected to start forming. → https://is.gd/U4mlmD | 04:57 |
| gigasu_shida | what's a shy indication and shy trend? | 05:01 |
| de-facto | %title https://imgur.com/a/fc06aWW https://i.imgur.com/1XsTm6U.png source: https://hsph-covid-study.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/Rt-values/jhu_global_rt.tsv.zip | 05:02 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 USA: Cases, Fatalities, Reproduction - Album on Imgur | 05:02 |
| de-facto | gigasu_shida, ^^ | 05:03 |
| tinwhiskers | shy == weak, I assume | 05:04 |
| de-facto | Daily new cases (average) look like they are going into maximum (peak), that also would be represented in Reproduction approaching R~1.09 (i multiplied it by 100k to show it on same Y-axis) | 05:04 |
| de-facto | hence Reproduction on that graph being 100000 really would mean R=1 | 05:05 |
| de-facto | fatalities always are delayed to daily new infections, but also they might have a very weak indication of going into a peak, possibly, its hard to tell | 05:05 |
| euod[m] | 19 days or so. | 05:06 |
| de-facto | I multiplied fatalities by 100 to show them on the same Y-Axis | 05:06 |
| de-facto | see the legend descriptions | 05:06 |
| gigasu_shida | do you think it already peaked? | 05:07 |
| de-facto | nope | 05:07 |
| euod[m] | there's no real reason to think that | 05:07 |
| gigasu_shida | what's your theory as to why there has been a resurgence of cases? | 05:07 |
| de-facto | but it might be about to peak with R~1 if things continue like they do currently | 05:07 |
| de-facto | i am not sure about how Thanksgiving will affect all of that though | 05:07 |
| de-facto | hopefully not too much negative | 05:07 |
| gigasu_shida | do you think people just got fatigued due to mask wearing | 05:08 |
| euod[m] | lol | 05:08 |
| euod[m] | if they're fatigued by doing something that requires no effort to speak of, what the hel. | 05:08 |
| de-facto | hard to tell, probably there are multiple reasons, one being the seasonality, it transmits better in cold weather | 05:08 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +1901 cases (now 561803), +183 deaths (now 15938) since a day ago | 05:08 |
| gigasu_shida | https://arxiv.org/abs/2011.12053v1 | 05:09 |
| euod[m] | the US would have been better to popularize COVID19 as a war. | 05:10 |
| de-facto | interesting, in Europe it definitely could be the case that there is pandemic fatigue, in first wave people were scared about all the uncertainties, then the summer relaxed them with low incidence and now they are less compliant with containment until we got that nasty huge second spike | 05:11 |
| euod[m] | you're all soldiers, fighting for freedom, masks are a sign of power just like the guy in the punisher. | 05:11 |
| gigasu_shida | europe seems to have more extended family house sharing | 05:12 |
| euod[m] | .cases NL | 05:12 |
| Brainstorm | euod[m]: In Netherlands, there have been 496621 confirmed cases (2.8% of the population) and 9051 deaths (1.8% of cases) as of 2 hours ago. 3.9 million tests were performed (12.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Netherlands for time series data. | 05:12 |
| euod[m] | smaller houses too in general. | 05:12 |
| de-facto | in some countries might be the case actually, several generations in one house (acutally quite nice, but now really dangerous for the elderly) | 05:12 |
| de-facto | gigasu_shida, thanks for that paper i will read that with some time :) | 05:13 |
| euod[m] | so belgium has the highest penetration? | 05:13 |
| euod[m] | .cases BE | 05:14 |
| Brainstorm | euod[m]: In Antwerp, Belgium, there have been 65509 confirmed cases (0.0% of the population) and 0 deaths (0.0% of cases) as of 21 hours ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Antwerp for time series data. | 05:14 |
| euod[m] | huh | 05:14 |
| euod[m] | .cases Belgium | 05:14 |
| de-facto | yes i think so | 05:14 |
| Brainstorm | euod[m]: In Belgium, there have been 561803 confirmed cases (4.9% of the population) and 15938 deaths (2.8% of cases) as of 16 minutes ago. 5.7 million tests were performed (9.9% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Belgium for time series data. | 05:14 |
| euod[m] | right, yeah. 4.9%. | 05:14 |
| euod[m] | then the US, spain, france. | 05:15 |
| euod[m] | but others have much higher velocity, Germany, Poland. | 05:15 |
| de-facto | Belgium was hit the hardest in first wave, now it seems like in second wave too for some reason | 05:15 |
| de-facto | but they peaked | 05:15 |
| euod[m] | indeed. wonder what the cause of that was. | 05:16 |
| de-facto | good question | 05:16 |
| euod[m] | in some places it's probably just because there's nobody left in elderly care hoes. | 05:17 |
| euod[m] | * in some places it's probably just because there's nobody left in elderly care homes. | 05:17 |
| de-facto | %title https://imgur.com/a/dbEBqjx https://i.imgur.com/weKKZXk.png source: https://epistat.sciensano.be/Data/COVID19BE_tests.csv | 05:18 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 Belgium: Tests, Cases, Positivity, Reproduction - Album on Imgur | 05:18 |
| LjL | euod[m], i am not really sure we'll get vaccines in meaningful amounts before, you know, we reach herd immunity "naturally" ;( | 05:19 |
| de-facto | so their Cases peaked and went down, as did their Testing but also the rate of Positivity (portion of positive tests), hence their decline is real | 05:19 |
| LjL | so the herd immunity people will just say "i told you so!" | 05:19 |
| de-facto | i dont think herd immunity works naturally | 05:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +3908 cases (now 342534), +86 deaths (now 11621) since 21 hours ago | 05:22 |
| tinwhiskers | herd immunity most certainly *can* work naturally | 05:22 |
| de-facto | just look at Sweden it was their strategy for long time | 05:22 |
| gigasu_shida | are you in eurozone de-facto ? | 05:22 |
| euod[m] | sure, it just needs a lot of deaths. | 05:22 |
| de-facto | Germany | 05:23 |
| tinwhiskers | but with covid it may not be possible | 05:23 |
| tinwhiskers | most estimates put a 60-80% prevalence for herd immunity with covid, but if natural infection causes a sufficiently short duration of immunity it may never be attainable. | 05:25 |
| LjL | de-facto, well, but Sweden never reached herd immunity *levels* | 05:26 |
| LjL | it may still not work naturally because of what tinwhiskers says | 05:27 |
| LjL | but Sweden isn't the counterexample | 05:27 |
| LjL | it's just that... natural herd immunity takes times and many deaths | 05:27 |
| LjL | it's not about whether it's possible, it's about whether it should be a goal | 05:27 |
| LjL | but if we don't keep the damn curve down, it won't matter whether we want it as a goal or not | 05:28 |
| LjL | at the pace some countries are going, 50% of the population will be infected before vaccines are available | 05:28 |
| de-facto | in my opinion the only sane way to have herd immunity is vaccination because it can be "better than natural" as discussed in the latest TWIV and also possibly longer lasting | 05:29 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 05:29 |
| LjL | i'm not disagreeing | 05:29 |
| gigasu_shida | i saw a karate studio a few weeks back....only two people out of like 40 were wearing a mask. it was a mix of kids, coaches and parents spectating. | 05:29 |
| LjL | i'm saying that we have a "free for all christmas", we can forget about getting that | 05:29 |
| gigasu_shida | at that point i knew something was coming | 05:29 |
| tinwhiskers | gigasu_shida: what country are you in? | 05:30 |
| gigasu_shida | the US | 05:30 |
| tinwhiskers | Oh, I may have asked that before :-/ | 05:31 |
| gigasu_shida | yes but i didn't capitalize "US" so you forgot. caps actually do work | 05:31 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, you should've taken the hint from "only two people out of like 40 were wearing a mask" | 05:31 |
| tinwhiskers | heh | 05:31 |
| gigasu_shida | lol ljl | 05:31 |
| de-facto | is there any summary of hospital usage over time for USA? | 05:36 |
| de-facto | like how many ICU beds are occupied with COVID-19 patients | 05:37 |
| de-facto | https://healthdata.gov/dataset/covid-19-estimated-patient-impact-and-hospital-capacity-state | 05:44 |
| de-facto | https://ourworldindata.org/covid-hospitalizations | 05:45 |
| de-facto | %title https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/current-covid-patients-icu?tab=chart&stackMode=absolute&time=2020-03-18..latest | 05:48 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From ourworldindata.org: Number of COVID-19 patients in intensive care (ICU) - Our World in Data | 05:48 |
| de-facto | .cases Germany | 05:55 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: In Germany, there have been 962906 confirmed cases (1.2% of the population) and 14965 deaths (1.6% of cases) as of 6 hours ago. 26.5 million tests were performed (3.6% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.5% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 2.3% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data. | 05:55 |
| de-facto | RKI Germany: Infections: +18633 (961320 total), Fatalities +410 (14771 total), ICU beds occupied with COVID-19 3777 with 2180 on ventilators (57.72%) | 05:56 |
| de-facto | thats a LOT of fatalities for Germany :/ | 05:56 |
| joerg | moin de-facto | 06:00 |
| de-facto | moin moin | 06:00 |
| de-facto | hopefully a day with good decisions | 06:01 |
| joerg | re fatalities, zeah I think we'll soon hit delay peak, alas we again got a ~6% higher incidences today than 1 week ago. So maybe not yet absmax fatalities | 06:03 |
| joerg | oh yeah | 06:03 |
| joerg | done too much, much too young... errr too little too late | 06:03 |
| euod[m] | lucky me, I get to go pay a hospital bill in person soon because they don't seem to be from this century. | 06:05 |
| euod[m] | and accounting is not on the ground floor! | 06:06 |
| de-facto | joerg, yeah it looks like we barely reached endemic in Germany, hence fatalities probably will stabilize on very high levels too e.g. ~500 per day or such? | 06:07 |
| de-facto | we really need more compliance with much stronger containment and a significant reduction in contact rates | 06:10 |
| de-facto | i already have given up hope they ever will close schools, hence we need to reduce contact rates even more everywhere else | 06:10 |
| de-facto | like DRASTICALLY, 75% and more reduction of contact rates | 06:11 |
| de-facto | Mobility in Germany https://www.covid-19-mobility.org/current-mobility/ | 06:13 |
| de-facto | only -13% in November | 06:14 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.covid-19-mobility.org/mobility-monitor/ | 06:15 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.covid-19-mobility.org: Mobility monitor · Covid-19 Mobility Project | 06:15 |
| de-facto | btw thats a damn cool website :D | 06:15 |
| de-facto | from the perspective of the virus maybe its a dream, from perspective of its hosts its a nightmare | 06:17 |
| de-facto | as is this whole year 2020 | 06:18 |
| de-facto | Back in end of March begin of April we had like -40% mobility in Germany, now when incidence is worst we only have -13% | 06:21 |
| de-facto | so maybe we need a travel ban in order to make people understand its not the time for traveling | 06:21 |
| de-facto | this project is really cool, those guys from RKI just rock :) | 06:24 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.covid-19-mobility.org/reports/report-second-lockdown/ | 06:24 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.covid-19-mobility.org: Report: First week of "lockdown light" · Covid-19 Mobility Project | 06:24 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nova Scotia, Canada: +37 cases (now 1227) since a day ago — US: +179274 cases (now 13.0 million), +2249 deaths (now 265936) since a day ago — Germany: +16370 cases (now 963192) since a day ago | 07:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Christmas traditions axed as pandemic sweeps rural Kansas → https://is.gd/EI4STR | 07:18 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Stockholm, Sweden: +6022 cases (now 65736), +26 deaths (now 2631) since 3 days ago — Saint Petersburg, Russia: +3179 cases (now 104043), +80 deaths (now 5053) since 23 hours ago — Skane, Sweden: +2234 cases (now 23233), +16 deaths (now 369) since 3 days ago — Kiev, Ukraine: +1422 cases (now 61640), +31 deaths (now 1173) since 23 hours ago | 07:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: CDC Likely To Recommend Shortening Coronavirus Quarantine Period: Federal health officials could reduce the quarantine from the currently recommended 14 days to as few as seven for people who test negative for the virus. → https://is.gd/9EhSK5 | 07:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: France Loosens COVID-19 Restrictions, But Bars, Restaurants Will Remain Shut: French President Emmanuel Macron announced the easing of a lockdown put in place as the country experienced a surge of new cases that swept through Europe. → https://is.gd/PzDaXz | 07:54 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: YouTube suspends OANN for a week after it posted fake Covid-19 cure (10006 votes) | https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/24/youtube-suspends-oann-for-a-week-after-it-posted-fake-covid-19-cure.html | https://redd.it/k0cvlr | 08:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid Christmas rules: UK leaders urge caution over household mixing → https://is.gd/01In0C | 08:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Coronavirus: Next two weeks ‘critical’ for Japan → https://is.gd/l7EiQd | 08:44 |
| gigasu_shida | de-facto we need to get ppl out of the house, but not traveling on vacation to other cities | 08:50 |
| gigasu_shida | but in the house is where the spreading occurs | 08:50 |
| gigasu_shida | we need less family gatherings | 08:50 |
| gigasu_shida | thank god germans don't have thanksgiving de-facto =) | 08:51 |
| euod[m] | I'd like to think that germans would know better than to do it, even if it was a thing there. | 08:54 |
| gigasu_shida | ehh they love their oktoberfestival thing | 08:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid Christmas rules: UK leaders urge caution over household mixing → https://is.gd/01In0C | 09:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: How South Korea responded to fears over the flu vaccine → https://is.gd/HGSPo8 | 09:46 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Bermuda: +12 cases (now 239) since 4 days ago | 09:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Immune checkpoint inhibitor efficacy against glioblastoma may decrease with dexamethasone: Among patients with glioblastoma receiving an immune checkpoint inhibitor, those who received the corticosteroid dexamethasone at baseline for cerebral edema had significantly worse overall survival, according to results of a study [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/B1Bb50 | 09:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +2255 deaths (now 265956) since 22 hours ago | 10:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: UPS stepping up dry ice production, freezers for vaccines: Global shipping giant UPS on Tuesday said it would start making dry ice in the United States and also distribute ultra-cold temperature freezers as it prepares to handle the logistics of shipping COVID-19 vaccines. → https://is.gd/SKXGoT | 10:10 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Indonesia: +5534 cases (now 511836), +114 deaths (now 16225) since 23 hours ago | 10:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: German vials in spotlight as COVID-19 vaccine nears: As expectations grow that the first COVID-19 jabs will be administered in a matter of weeks, German glassmaker Schott is quietly doing what it has been for months: churning out vials that will hold the vaccine. → https://is.gd/FXi2tp | 10:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: STAT+: ‘The trend is irreversible’: How Covid-19 could drive a shift toward decentralized trials: The pandemic has become a showcase for decentralized research that uses telemedicine and mobile technologies to accelerate the pace of discovery. → https://is.gd/5AE7Mx | 10:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid Christmas rules: UK leaders urge caution over household mixing → https://is.gd/01In0C | 11:00 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +15786 cases (now 964909), +366 deaths (now 15007) since 21 hours ago | 11:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: SARS-CoV-2 mutations do not appear to increase transmissibility: None of the mutations currently documented in the SARS-CoV-2 virus appear to increase its transmissibility in humans, according to a study led by UCL researchers. → https://is.gd/7ekJOt | 11:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid Christmas rules: UK leaders urge caution over household mixing → https://is.gd/01In0C | 11:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from WHO Euro: WHO’s Emergency Medical Teams inspire countries and colleagues during the COVID-19 pandemic: Emergency Medical Teams (EMTs) are WHO-classified teams of health-care professionals who can be deployed to provide immediate assistance to countries and territories during natural disasters, outbreaks and emergencies. During the COVID-19 [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/XwraHO | 11:50 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Croatia: +3603 cases (now 111617), +56 deaths (now 1501) since 23 hours ago | 11:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid Christmas rules: Caution urged over household mixing: The UK's five-day relaxation of rules will throw "fuel on the Covid fire", scientists warn. → https://is.gd/01In0C | 12:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Iran: +13843 cases (now 894385), +469 deaths (now 46207) since a day ago — Switzerland: +4876 cases (now 309469), +84 deaths (now 4325) since a day ago | 12:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Download the daily number of new reported cases of COVID-19 by country worldwide: The downloadable data file is updated daily and contains the latest available public data on COVID-19. You may use the data in line with ECDC’s copyright policy. → https://is.gd/zYsz7d | 12:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: EU says first virus vaccinations possible by Christmas → https://is.gd/WaIvL1 | 13:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Bulgaria closes restaurants, schools to fight virus: Bulgaria's government announced Wednesday a return to tougher restrictions, including the closure of restaurants and schools, in a bid to contain a surge in infections and deaths amid a second wave of coronavirus. → https://is.gd/xe5zkT | 13:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Coronavirus hits Italian birth rate: The coronavirus crisis has hit Italy's already historically-low birth rate, new projections from the national statistics agency reveal. → https://is.gd/2XwgeF | 13:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Connection between COVID-19 and loss of smell uncovered by research team: About 70% of people with COVID-19 suddenly lose their sense of smell, although fewer of them seem to realize it, according to a new "living analysis" by a research team. → https://is.gd/yLNHG6 | 14:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +3013 cases (now 498653), +74 deaths (now 9109) since 13 hours ago | 14:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Post - November 25 | Questions, images, videos, comments, unconfirmed reports, theories, suggestions → https://is.gd/9G3WGc | 14:54 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +178028 cases (now 13.0 million), +2204 deaths (now 266016) since 23 hours ago | 15:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): FDA clears a 'new generation' of Covid antibody test designed to tell how well someone is protected against the virus → https://is.gd/N5u6pR | 15:06 |
| rpifan | hm | 15:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: New study explains important cause of fatal influenza: It is largely unknown why influenza infections lead to an increased risk of bacterial pneumonia. Researchers at Karolinska Institutet have now described important findings leading to so-called superinfections, which claim many lives around the world every year. The study is [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/m8RSFm | 15:18 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Serbia: +7579 cases (now 140608), +41 deaths (now 1315) since a day ago | 15:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): FDA clears a 'new generation' of Covid antibody test designed to tell how well someone is protected against the virus → https://is.gd/N5u6pR | 15:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Diseases, Conditions, Syndromes: Pacific tourism is desperate for a vaccine and travel freedoms, but the industry must learn from this crisis → https://is.gd/0lu5S1 | 15:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Testing sewage can give school districts, campuses and businesses a heads-up on the spread of COVID-19: November has brought encouraging news about several COVID-19 vaccines. But members of the general public will probably not be vaccinated before the spring or summer of 2021 at the earliest. Americans will be living with this [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/cAHpq9 | 15:56 |
| rpifan | interesting | 16:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: What will the new post-pandemic normal look like?: Will the wearing of bowties ever rebound with the once-fashion-conscious who've grown used to every day being pandemic casual? How about the dollar bill, now that so much spending has gone online and onto plastic? What about doctors' visits, when the recent past showed that [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/eZoVG0 | 16:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Scientists design model to predict cellular drug targets against COVID-19: A computational model of a human lung cell has been used to understand how SARS-CoV-2 draws on human host cell metabolism to reproduce by researchers at the University of Warwick. This study helps understand how the virus uses the host to survive, and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/iVfz17 | 16:45 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +5191 cases (now 343817), +118 deaths (now 11653) since a day ago | 16:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Hungry and out of work: What life is like for young British people under COVID-19: Leo (all names of project participants have been changed to protect their identity) is a 22-year-old living in Edinburgh. He was working part-time in hospitality and waiting to begin university when we spoke during the UK's nationwide lockdown [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/vCmwmI | 16:57 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Arizona, US: +3982 cases (now 310850), +9 deaths (now 6524) since 23 hours ago | 17:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): The Efficacy and Safety of SCTA01 in Hospitalized Patients With Severe COVID-19 → https://is.gd/kaBxMT | 17:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Study to Assess Adverse Events and How Intravenous (IV) ABBV-47D11 Moves Through the Body of Adult Participants Hospitalized With Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) → https://is.gd/JRJVYX | 17:23 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Reunion: +147 cases (now 7836), +4 deaths (now 39) since a day ago | 17:23 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Healthcare workers hospitalized due to COVID-19 have no higher risk of death than general population. Data from the Spanish SEMI-COVID-19 Registry. (86 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.23.20236810v1 | https://redd.it/k0ngcl | 17:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): The Efficacy and Safety of SCTA01 in Hospitalized Patients With Severe COVID-19 → https://is.gd/kaBxMT | 17:35 |
| MikeJoel | %cases pa | 17:35 |
| Brainstorm | MikeJoel: In Pennsylvania, US, there have been 332329 confirmed cases (2.6% of the population) and 10164 deaths (3.1% of cases) as of 47 minutes ago. 1.4 million tests were performed (23.3% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 17:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Study to Assess Adverse Events and How Intravenous (IV) ABBV-47D11 Moves Through the Body of Adult Participants Hospitalized With Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) → https://is.gd/JRJVYX | 17:48 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +25852 cases (now 1.5 million), +722 deaths (now 52028) since a day ago | 17:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): The Efficacy and Safety of SCTA01 in Hospitalized Patients With Severe COVID-19 → https://is.gd/kaBxMT | 18:12 |
| LjL | https://github.com/corona-warn-app/cwa-app-android/issues/1483#issuecomment-733840533 | 18:21 |
| LjL | de-facto, ↑ | 18:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add RKI Fever Monitor → https://is.gd/V6jFai | 18:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from In The Pipeline: Thanksgiving Break 2020: So I’ll be taking time off until probably Monday, unless we get any big news. Thanksgiving season is here, and although we don’t have as big a crowd as usual here (of course), I will soon head into the kitchen to make the same chocolate pecan pie I do every year. Every so often someone → https://is.gd/UeQu1Y | 18:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Another study casts doubt on 'convalescent plasma' as COVID-19 treatment: (HealthDay)—Early in the COVID-19 pandemic, anecdotal reports suggested that infusing very sick patients with the blood plasma of people who'd survived the disease might help boost outcomes. → https://is.gd/8J09ox | 19:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +16305 cases (now 1.6 million), +646 deaths (now 56533) since 11 hours ago | 19:05 |
| Skunny | so whats up with the whats up | 19:06 |
| LjL | you tell us, are y'all negative yet | 19:10 |
| ecks | so far 100% negativity rate | 19:11 |
| ecks | n=1 | 19:11 |
| LjL | => COVID doesn't exist | 19:11 |
| ecks | QED | 19:11 |
| Skunny | yup | 19:14 |
| Skunny | so far | 19:14 |
| Skunny | gonna see my mom in like 3 months | 19:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Restarting global economy depends on tackling 'last mile' of vaccine journey: Restarting the global economy for billions of people will depend on successfully overcoming logistical challenges in the 'last mile' of a COVID-19 vaccine's journey to immunization stations, according to a new report. → https://is.gd/u9cJpN | 19:14 |
| Skunny | doing a prime rib on the weber with rotisserie | 19:14 |
| Skunny | me wife mom and son | 19:14 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +85 deaths (now 4393) since 20 hours ago | 19:23 |
| kevin-oculus | healthcenter goes on training days in the middle of pandemic | 19:30 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +8506 cases (now 1.6 million), +369 deaths (now 44037) since 22 hours ago | 19:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): 'It’s been crazy' — Maker of ultra-cold freezers sees surge in demand to store Covid vaccines → https://is.gd/JDRaKZ | 19:39 |
| LjL | de-facto, uhm i was under the impression Spain had had many more cases than Italy, but it's probably just because they're bad at counting things. same with France, to a lesser extent. all three are smoothed here https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=France;Spain;Italy&cumulative=no&smooth=yes but Italy is ridiculously smooth compared to France and Spain | 19:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Study characterizes suspected COVID-19 infections in emergency departments in the UK: Among patients reporting to hospital emergency departments (EDs) with suspected COVID-19 infection, important differences in symptoms and outcome exist based on age, sex and ethnicity, according to a new study published this week in the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/j6yNkO | 20:03 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Fourth iteration of COVID-19 treatment trial underway (82 votes) | https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/fourth-iteration-covid-19-treatment-trial-underway | https://redd.it/k0vuru | 20:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Uganda: +484 cases (now 18890), +5 deaths (now 191) since a day ago | 20:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Coronavirus cases worldwide top 60 million: More than 60 million cases of the novel coronavirus have been detected worldwide, according to a tally from official sources compiled by AFP as of 1830 GMT on Wednesday. → https://is.gd/dJTZ4a | 20:16 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nevada, US: +3141 cases (now 142239), +24 deaths (now 2071) since 13 hours ago — Canada: +4892 cases (now 345280), +97 deaths (now 11689) since 21 hours ago | 20:23 |
| euod[m] | .cases us | 20:41 |
| Brainstorm | euod[m]: In US, there have been 13.0 million confirmed cases (4.0% of the population) and 267115 deaths (2.0% of cases) as of 7 minutes ago. 184.1 million tests were performed (7.1% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.1% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.4% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 20:41 |
| euod[m] | so 22% of cases are in the US. | 20:41 |
| ubLIX | LjL: ..for example, now my client claims "host not in room" | 20:43 |
| LjL | uh | 20:43 |
| LjL-Matrix | ubLIX: | 20:43 |
| ubLIX | which it does from time to time. but i've assumed this was the client's fault | 20:43 |
| LjL | do you get the highlight on matrix? (that was a highlight to your matrix user) | 20:44 |
| ubLIX | not connected to matrix right now because.. host not in room, lol | 20:44 |
| ubLIX | whatever that means | 20:44 |
| ubLIX | i'm 90% sure it's just my client | 20:45 |
| LjL-Matrix | well, at least joining works fine for me right now | 20:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from FDA Press Releases: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Issues New Policy on Dry Heat for Reuse of Certain Respirators: The FDA issued guidance on the use of dry heat for bioburden reduction to help support the single-user reuse of certain particulate filtering facepiece respirators (FFRs), such as N95 respirators, by health care personnel when [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/yXm0v4 | 20:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: 'It Is Slightly Terrifying.' New Orleans Chef Braces For A Bittersweet Thanksgiving: Like many small business owners, Kelly Fields is walking a fine line between keeping her restaurant open and her employees safe. As much as she's staying vigilant, she's wary of another shutdown. → https://is.gd/FEG8nO | 21:54 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Syria: +90 cases (now 7459), +6 deaths (now 391) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +3972 cases (now 499612) since 20 hours ago | 22:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS ONE: The values and meanings of social activities for older urban men after retirement: by Risa Takashima, Ryuta Onishi, Kazuko Saeki, Michiyo Hirano Previous studies have indicated that older men often experience disconnection from the community after retirement. Social activities have been shown to be effective in preventing social [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/GOB2vg | 22:06 |
| Humuhumunukunuku | Is it naive and oversimplified to think that if currently R=1.2 and 25% of people get vaccinated at 100% efficiency that then ceteris paribus R will be 0.9? | 22:23 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyxOPLHD4Ro <-- press conference of Merkel about their plan for December in German language "Bund-Länder-Treffen: PK zu Corona-Maßnahmen mit Kanzlerin Angela Merkel" | 22:50 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.youtube.com: Bund-Länder-Treffen: PK zu Corona-Maßnahmen mit Kanzlerin Angela Merkel - YouTube | 22:50 |
| de-facto | unfortunately no subtitles yet | 22:51 |
| genera | "Treffen mit Kanzlerin Angela" sounds so cozy | 22:56 |
| genera | tea and Kekse without Kekse because Zoom | 22:56 |
| LjL | Berlusconi would love it | 23:02 |
| rpifan | lol | 23:04 |
| de-facto | %title https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/wir-brauchen-noch-einmal-eine-kraftanstrengung-schule-private-treffen-weihnachten-das-sind-die-neuen-beschluesse/26657290.html https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tagesspiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fwir-brauchen-noch-einmal-eine-kraftanstrengung-schule-private-treffen-weihnachten-das-sind-die-neuen-beschluesse%2F26657290.html | 23:08 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.tagesspiegel.de: „Wir brauchen noch einmal eine Kraftanstrengung“: Schule, private Treffen, Weihnachten – das sind die neuen Beschlüsse - Politik - Tagesspiegel | 23:08 |
| de-facto | https://www.bundesregierung.de/resource/blob/997532/1820090/11c9749f77a71b9439759538864aa672/2020-11-25-mpk-beschluss-data.pdf | 23:16 |
| de-facto | %tr <de "Videoschaltkonferenz der Bundeskanzlerin mit den Regierungschefinnen und Regierungschefs der Länder am 25. November 2020 " | 23:17 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto, German to English: "Video conference of the Federal Chancellor with the heads of government of the countries on 25 November 2020 " (MyMemory) — "Video switching conference between the Chancellor and the heads of government of the federal states on November 25, 2020" (Google) [... want %more?] | 23:17 |
| de-facto | https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bundesregierung.de%2Fresource%2Fblob%2F997532%2F1820090%2F11c9749f77a71b9439759538864aa672%2F2020-11-25-mpk-beschluss-data.pdf | 23:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Science: AstraZeneca’s best COVID vaccine result was a fluke. Experts have questions → https://is.gd/Y5hUmX | 23:22 |
| LjL | fluke! | 23:32 |
| LjL | that's not good news | 23:32 |
| LjL | oh, a fluke in the sense that there was not *meant* to be a half-dose arm | 23:33 |
| de-facto | to be honest i am a bit disappointed about that result, in my opinion we need a much stronger containment in Germany, i only can see compromises and exceptions but no real substantial raise of containment | 23:33 |
| LjL | Pangalos explained that when the UK trial first began, Oxford researchers were giving patients their first round of shots and noticed that the vaccine’s side-effects—fatigue, headache, arm aches—were milder than expected. | 23:34 |
| LjL | “So, we went back and checked ... and we found out that they had underpredicted the dose of the vaccine by half,” Pangalos said. The researchers then decided to continue on with the trial and give the relatively small number of incorrectly dosed patients the proper dose for their second shot. | 23:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid Christmas rules: Caution urged over household mixing: The UK's five-day relaxation of rules will throw "fuel on the Covid fire", scientists warn. → https://is.gd/01In0C | 23:34 |
| LjL | In the pooled trial analysis, 2,741 participants were recruited while the incorrect half-dose/full-dose regimen was used and 8,895 participants were involved in the analysis of the two-full-dose regimen. | 23:34 |
| LjL | AstraZeneca and Oxford have been mum about how that error occurred exactly. | 23:34 |
| de-facto | do they write how many COVID cases they had in that study branch? | 23:35 |
| LjL | de-facto, didn't i just paste that? :P | 23:40 |
| LjL | "accidental study branch", that's a new one | 23:40 |
| de-facto | i mean it would be interesting to know how many COVID cases appeared in the accidental-half-dose/full-dose study branch to know how significant their 90% result was | 23:41 |
| de-facto | like how many got infected in UK? | 23:41 |
| de-facto | according to Merkel the goal of 75% contact reduction was not reached with the actual 40% contact reduction that was realized by citizens | 23:52 |
| de-facto | hmm she does not say it but for me it also looks like Merkel is not satisfied with the compromise from her Ministers | 23:54 |
| adidas | Will y'all get the vaccine as soon as it comes out? | 23:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: AstraZeneca manufacturing error clouds vaccine study results: AstraZeneca and Oxford University on Wednesday acknowledged a manufacturing error that is raising questions about preliminary results of their experimental COVID-19 vaccine. → https://is.gd/z1CDlG | 23:59 |
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