| euod[m] | right, the US death toll numbers are off due to thanksgiving | 00:22 |
|---|---|---|
| euod[m] | it's like a longer weekend pretty much in the numbers. | 00:22 |
| Timvde | Today in /r/nottheonion: https://twitter.com/kate_ptrv/status/1332398737604431874 | 00:25 |
| gigasu_shida | off in what direction euod[m] | 00:26 |
| euod[m] | down | 00:26 |
| gigasu_shida | why would that be? | 00:26 |
| euod[m] | weekends always cause under reporting | 00:26 |
| euod[m] | it's visible in every countries numbers | 00:26 |
| gigasu_shida | but wouldn't the death toll only be affected by what happened like 15-20 days ago? | 00:27 |
| Timvde | I guess "people died, administration hasn't been done yet" | 00:27 |
| euod[m] | basically. | 00:28 |
| gigasu_shida | oh ok | 00:28 |
| gigasu_shida | the bureaucratic lag makes sense | 00:28 |
| Timvde | So that means there should be a bit of overreporting in the coming days, right? | 00:32 |
| euod[m] | over reporting in the rate, correction in the total, yes. | 00:32 |
| Timvde | Yes, that's what I meant | 00:33 |
| euod[m] | I'm expecting ATH, but not yet. | 00:39 |
| gigasu_shida | give me a number | 00:41 |
| gigasu_shida | like 3000? | 00:41 |
| gigasu_shida | “It means that the new coronavirus can circulate among the population for a long time and with a low rate of lethality, not because it is disappearing, only to surge again,” he said. | 00:43 |
| gigasu_shida | is this a questionable conclusion? | 00:43 |
| gigasu_shida | some article said the virus may have been present in italy as far back as Sept 2019 | 00:44 |
| gigasu_shida | i don't think the virus circulates with low lethality. it's probably more like the lethality is counted as flu, common cold, or other causes of death | 00:45 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, if you look at graph of excess deaths in Italy, there simply wasn't anything like the March-April epidemic in September or later (until March) | 00:48 |
| LjL | so if the virus was circulating widely, then well, it had lower lethality. if the lethality wasn't low, then it wasn't circulating *that* much. | 00:49 |
| gigasu_shida | ok, so the virus either wasn't circulating (widely) in the last quarter of 2019 in italy, OR, it was circulating as a less lethal mutation | 00:49 |
| euod[m] | there's some risk of this just being CPP propaganda too. | 00:50 |
| euod[m] | they're currently trying to desperately re-write history. | 00:50 |
| gigasu_shida | the excess death data is really key here | 00:50 |
| euod[m] | the party official story is that its origin isn't Wuhan, but it was introduced to China from India. | 00:50 |
| LjL | they might be | 00:50 |
| gigasu_shida | the excess data really says it all | 00:50 |
| LjL | i'm still waiting for a competent rebuttal to https://np.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/k2doss/the_early_cryptic_transmission_and_evolution_of/ :P | 00:50 |
| gigasu_shida | the less-lethal-mutation theory doesn't really hold water | 00:51 |
| gigasu_shida | because the mutations we've seen so far have fairly similar lethality | 00:51 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, but doctors in Italy *were* finding "strange", "unusual" pneumonias that they couldn't explain and that were kinda lethal. this was mentioned many times in Italy last spring | 00:51 |
| LjL | clearly they weren't so many as to make the excess deaths spike | 00:52 |
| LjL | but i find it very likely that it was circulating in some form | 00:52 |
| LjL | also, the virus doesn't care to mutate to add lethality, unless that is offset by helping it be more infectious. so in the earlier stage, the virus could definitely have had more pressure to mutate to be more infectious, if it wasn't very infectious | 00:53 |
| gigasu_shida | maybe by chance it was circulating among healthier people at first, and those people didn't visit their grandparents | 00:53 |
| LjL | a virus that wasn't very infectious could explain circulation that was "not wide", with the same lethality as now, but fewer net deaths | 00:53 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, that's pretty much what happened in the summer, so sure | 00:53 |
| LjL | i mean i don't know, but you can list it as a possibility. people who travel more tend to be younger | 00:54 |
| gigasu_shida | yeah that's true, i shouldn't just focus on lethality. contagiousness is the other factor | 00:54 |
| euod[m] | wonder what the CPP actually know. | 00:54 |
| LjL | euod[m], for the record, it's the CCP | 00:55 |
| euod[m] | CCP. | 00:55 |
| euod[m] | I always miswrite that. | 00:55 |
| euod[m] | Communist Party Party | 00:55 |
| gigasu_shida | i'm still in a state of shock from the first wave of the virus in Lombardy | 00:55 |
| LjL | not like the second is so much better | 00:55 |
| gigasu_shida | i remember being dumbfounded by Lombardy's peak | 00:55 |
| LjL | and since today we're out of lockdown again ;( | 00:56 |
| LjL | well in advance of what i was expecting | 00:56 |
| gigasu_shida | wow already... | 00:56 |
| LjL | yes, the numbers went down, in theory we'd been told that they had to go down consistently for 14 days and *then* the restrictions would be lifted, but instead, magically (but really because the regional governors insisted), they were lifted earlier | 00:56 |
| LjL | it's almost as if laws were just letters on a piece of paper | 00:57 |
| gigasu_shida | something strange is going on | 00:57 |
| LjL | meanwhile, the police down here is busy stopping delivery people from getting into the train station with their bicycles (yes, again, they were doing that last night too) because 1) clearly that is the most important thing to stop and 2) they're black immigrants so they won't know where to complain | 00:58 |
| gigasu_shida | and it seems they even decided to reduce restrictions on thursday or friday | 01:03 |
| gigasu_shida | which is a bit odd. it wasn't "let's wait and see what it's like on sunday" to reduce restrictions | 01:03 |
| LjL | do you mean where? | 01:04 |
| gigasu_shida | where??? huh? | 01:04 |
| LjL | in italy? we had "low" numbers on Sunday because... it was a sunday. nothing special about that. the actual ratio between infected and *tested* people hasn't changed one iota. | 01:05 |
| LjL | it was definitely not decided on the basis of Sunday's data, but nobody is saying it was | 01:05 |
| gigasu_shida | it just appears that the easing of restrictions was decided upon last week...probably wednesday i would guess | 01:06 |
| gigasu_shida | based on typical bureaucratic lag/planning | 01:06 |
| gigasu_shida | and on wednesday or thursday it wasn't really clear that the death curve had hit a crescendo | 01:07 |
| gigasu_shida | it just feels like the gov in italy is caving to pressure from businesses | 01:07 |
| LjL | anyway we are "orange" now. which is less lockdown than red (well, no lockdown) but more restrictions than yellow. bars and restaurants still closed, schools only up to 3rd middle school year, and as all of italy, there's a curfew after 22:00 | 01:08 |
| gigasu_shida | i guess "orange" will still give people pause, especially older folks | 01:08 |
| LjL | well that's why they initially decided there would be green, yellow, and red | 01:09 |
| LjL | but later they changed that to yellow, orange and red, with no green | 01:09 |
| gigasu_shida | lol | 01:09 |
| LjL | totally not a cheap psychological trick | 01:09 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +8037 cases (now 2.2 million) since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +3970 cases (now 520276), +27 deaths (now 9376) since 22 hours ago | 01:21 |
| KREYREEN | %cases USA | 01:21 |
| Brainstorm | KREYREEN: In US, there have been 13.7 million confirmed cases (4.2% of the population) and 273064 deaths (2.0% of cases) as of 5 minutes ago. 192.3 million tests were performed (7.1% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.2% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.3% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 01:21 |
| de-facto | problems arise from letting local government decide about which restrictions they want to implement (obviously the least), hence why not force them into a global scheme where 1) they get paid for each positive test and fined for each requested test not finalized in time 2) each region above national median incidence *must* go into complete lockdown without restrictions 3) traveling between regions above and below national median is | 01:24 |
| de-facto | strictly forbidden | 01:24 |
| de-facto | 4) if they dont want to participate in a national containment scheme they loose all possibilities to get funding or aid of any form from national or federal level | 01:25 |
| LjL | de-facto, Italy is not a federal country, so in theory the central government can override the regions. one big problem, in case it wanted to, is that the regions control all healthcare; while the government could probably override that with an emergency law, they could easily find themselves "hostage" of the regions which would not give them the data and all things needed to control healthcare, which isn't an easy task from one day to the next | 01:28 |
| LjL | anyway as to your specific point | 01:28 |
| LjL | #1 is a problem in italy right now, as regions can definitely "steer" their numbers in one direction or the other, with delays, and other tricks | 01:29 |
| de-facto | same here | 01:29 |
| LjL | as to #2 we so have restricted movement between all regions except the yellow ones. in both the orange and the red ones, we cannot even move between municipalities | 01:29 |
| LjL | sorry, that was #3 | 01:29 |
| de-facto | yeah restriction travel across "iso-incidence" lines afaik no such thing here in .de | 01:30 |
| LjL | as to #2 it's not quite like that but there are those famous "21 parameters" that were supposedly decided by the technical-scientific committee | 01:30 |
| LjL | but we go back to #1, what if those parameters are calculated on data that aren't quite true | 01:30 |
| de-facto | i think with having the upper half above the national median incidence always in lockdown it would auto-regulate to wrestle incidence down | 01:31 |
| LjL | although if you look at Italy's data as a whole, they look much more natural and smoother than France or Spain, don't remember about Germany | 01:31 |
| LjL | there is still a weekly pattern, but i think i showed you, just set smoothing on in offloop, and Italy looks like a plotted function, the others look all jerky | 01:31 |
| LjL | the french are a bit jerky to be fair | 01:31 |
| de-facto | Germany got strong weekly periodicity | 01:31 |
| de-facto | due to testing and reporting | 01:32 |
| LjL | yeah us too, but France and Spain don't *count cases* on weekends... at all | 01:32 |
| LjL | that's a bit of a difference | 01:32 |
| de-facto | but with incidence i meant weekly accumulated new infections per 100k citizens, so that would average out anyhow | 01:32 |
| snake | my friend was hanging out with someone that has tested positive for covid | 01:33 |
| snake | and that was before we just hung out yesterday | 01:33 |
| LjL | http://offloop.net/covid19/?default=France;Spain;United%20Kingdom;Italy;Germany&byPopulation=yes&cumulative=no&smooth=yes if Italy were China, by looking at this graph people would say "Italy is faking the data, it cannot look that smooth" :P | 01:33 |
| LjL | (which was definitely said about China at various points) | 01:33 |
| snake | im trying not to worry too much | 01:33 |
| KREYREEN | https://youtu.be/0gLmMPOHDwM can anyone explain to me post-covid issues like i am 12yo | 01:33 |
| snake | my friend has heart issues so thats concerning | 01:34 |
| LjL | :( | 01:34 |
| KREYREEN | looks like it's mostly psychological ? | 01:34 |
| LjL | no, it doesn't look like it's mostly psychological :\ | 01:34 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, what's the issue then? DNA changes by the virus? | 01:34 |
| KREYREEN | as there doesn't seem to be anything physically | 01:35 |
| LjL | we don't know what the issue is, which doesn't help with treating it. in some cases it's just lung damage, but we don't know about many other cases. there could be neurological involvement for one thing | 01:35 |
| de-facto | snake, how was the longest duration between your first meeting your friend and his/her first exposure to that someone that tested positive for covid? | 01:35 |
| LjL | but still, ryouma would be *totally thrilled* about you immediately making the jump between "we don't know what causes it" to "it must be psychological then" | 01:35 |
| LjL | %seen ryouma | 01:35 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: I last saw ryouma at 2020-11-28 03:18:07 (1 day, 21:17:31 ago). | 01:35 |
| snake | de-facto, they smoked marijuanas on tuesday, and we hung out yesterday (saturday) | 01:36 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, can we make an educative guess what this could be? | 01:36 |
| KREYREEN | e.g. people reporting shaking, "heavy legs", fatigue, high blood pressure | 01:36 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, there are many post-viral syndromes. we can guess that it's like the rest of them. there are strong indications that they aren't psychological | 01:36 |
| LjL | %wik Post-viral syndrome | 01:37 |
| strike | i smoka de 5 marijuanas | 01:37 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, from English Wikipedia: A sequela (UK: /sɪˈkwiːlə/, US: /sɪˈkwɛlə/; usually used in the plural, sequelae /-iː/) is a pathological condition resulting from a disease, injury, therapy, or other trauma. A typical sequela is a chronic complication of an acute condition - in other words, a long-term effect of a temporary [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequela | 01:37 |
| snake | de-facto, im thinking if he was in a room with someone, coughing, talking loudly, and passing joints, its likely that he got it too | 01:37 |
| snake | and we were hanging out in close proximity | 01:37 |
| LjL | that does seem likely | 01:38 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, can we exclude physical damage in patients that has healty lungs post-covid? | 01:38 |
| de-facto | snake, ugh so like 4 days then, median incubation period is 5.2 days (half of infected become symptomatic before that, the other half after that), and usually the day before becoming symptomatic is the day with highest viral spread from that infected, hence day 4 on median | 01:38 |
| LjL | you should self-isolate i think, even though you're a second-degree contact for now | 01:38 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, not really, no | 01:38 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, why? | 01:38 |
| snake | LjL, i was gonna go to work tomorrow to do laundry and drink coffee for 2 hours | 01:38 |
| snake | de-facto, yeah thats bad | 01:39 |
| snake | fuck | 01:39 |
| KREYREEN | https://youtu.be/0gLmMPOHDwM?t=655 -- We saw small and very microscopic blood cloghts and significant blood cloghts in the brain | 01:39 |
| KREYREEN | O.o | 01:39 |
| snake | LjL, i'll stay away from everyone, i can just close my door to my office | 01:39 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, there have been autopsies on patients that died from COVID which have found the virus in the ears and nearby bones. it was in the context of trying to explain why some people develop hearing loss and/or tinnitus after COVID (which are also long-term effects that aren't psychological, especially hearing loss). anyway, the point is, those viral particles would never have been found in *living* patients, because there simply aren't exams to find | 01:39 |
| LjL | them that wouldn't destroy their ears | 01:39 |
| LjL | that's just one example. there are many things that we cannot simply diagnose about our bodies from outside with our neat machines. probably more than the ones we can. | 01:40 |
| LjL | autopsies on patients who died, however, have their limits too, because you're restricting yourself to the subset of patients who... well, died. so there is selection bias. | 01:40 |
| KREYREEN | i am aware, just trying to develop a theory atm | 01:40 |
| de-facto | snake, it does not mean you must have got it, but it can mean that you may have got it (at least transmission probability is quite optimized by the incubation period), so really better self isolate and get a test mid of this week | 01:41 |
| KREYREEN | any info on the mentioned blood cloghts? Could that be something happening when the patient is living? | 01:41 |
| LjL | sure, the blood clots are definitely happening on live patients | 01:41 |
| LjL | that's why one of the mainstays of COVID treatment now is blood thinners | 01:41 |
| snake | de-facto, im from the US, how can i locate a drive-thru covid test? | 01:41 |
| LjL | (even though not all of them seem to be effective on COVID-caused clots) | 01:41 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, do we know why are these blood clots happening ? | 01:42 |
| LjL | no | 01:42 |
| KREYREEN | seems to be auto-immune reaction to virus particles to me | 01:42 |
| snake | seems you need a DR order and my DR is closed because he got covid | 01:42 |
| LjL | i've seen a ton of theories, but i have no opinion | 01:42 |
| KREYREEN | like white cells attaching themself to the virus particle and encasing it with blood cloth because they can't neutralize it? | 01:42 |
| LjL | it could be auto-immune, but the virus's spike protein also seems to have the ability to cause some cells to coalesce together (many nuclei, just one cell wall) | 01:43 |
| KREYREEN | so blood thinners would make it worse? | 01:43 |
| LjL | make that happen to blood, and you have a problem | 01:43 |
| LjL | (that theory may not stand up to any scrutiny, but just saying as a possible example) | 01:43 |
| KREYREEN | noted | 01:43 |
| snake | de-facto, but this is a chance to test my theory that my work watches me on irc | 01:43 |
| snake | if they try to avoid me then they were watching, if not, then im crazy and an asshole | 01:43 |
| LjL | i think ubLIX[m] researched the blood clotting to some extent | 01:43 |
| LjL | he may have an opinion on what causes it | 01:43 |
| snake | but i wont go out of my way to bother anyone | 01:44 |
| de-facto | snake, i am not sure since im from EU but maybe this site can help?https://www.hhs.gov/coronavirus/community-based-testing-sites/index.html | 01:44 |
| snake | thanks | 01:44 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, So i think that we can guess that these shakings, "heavy legs", migrane, tiredness and the heart rate could be caused by these blood clots? | 01:44 |
| de-facto | dont be worried too much, just be careful and isolate from other people until you test negative on Wednesday or such | 01:45 |
| KREYREEN | e.g. blood cloth in the nerve that interrupts the flow in the thumb.. blood cloth in the legs to make them feel heavy, etc.. | 01:45 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, i wouldn't guess that, personally. they don't sound like symptoms from blood clotting to me. ongoing inflammation sounds more like it. | 01:45 |
| LjL | you can't have a blood clot in a nerve O.o | 01:45 |
| KREYREEN | inflammation from what? O.o | 01:45 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, ah true i meant in the vein | 01:45 |
| LjL | inflammation from something, possibly just the immune system staying on high alert. you brough up auto-immune reactions, surely you know those are deeply tied with inflammation? | 01:46 |
| LjL | there are inflammatory markers in the blood that can be measured. i'd be interested to see what they are like in post-COVID patients | 01:46 |
| KREYREEN | i guess that's a possibility, but i am currently more convinced about the blood cloths causing these symptoms or maybe combination of both | 01:47 |
| snake | de-facto, they're giving me a screening questionaire | 01:47 |
| ubLIX[m] | heh. researched is a strong word. i found that angle quite interesting so i caught some articles about it and followed medcram's development of the theme | 01:47 |
| snake | de-facto, should i lie and say i have a cough chills and shortness of breath? | 01:47 |
| LjL | blood clots generally cause more severe issues than just a migraine or having heavy legs. they just stay there until they give you a stroke or other things (and those do happen in severe COVID patients at least). if blood clots continue to cause damage/issues after the acuse phase is up, i think we'd have to find some mechanism we don't know about yet | 01:48 |
| ubLIX[m] | medcram spent a lot of time discussing evidence for viral attack of endothelial cells lining blood vessels, leading to release of clotting factors | 01:48 |
| snake | de-facto, i lied | 01:48 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], any wild hypothesis of linkage to "long COVID"? | 01:48 |
| euod[m] | ask yourself why those questions are being asked. | 01:48 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, like in mentioned video they reported sudden death from heart attack, but i can't find any info about it.. wild guess would be a group of blood cloths within the heart | 01:49 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, blood clots can cause heart attacks, yes | 01:49 |
| ubLIX[m] | sure. reduction of circulatory function, taking a long time to repair | 01:49 |
| snake | euod[m], to prevent unecessary testing | 01:50 |
| de-facto | snake, hmm maybe they want to be sure they only test symptomatic cases? It may determine which kind of test they employ, e.g. RT-PCR is much more sensitive and can catch pre-symptomatic cases, while antigen-quicktests can only catch symptomatic somewhat reliably (due to their lower sesnitivity) | 01:50 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, do you think that there is a scenario where the body did not defeat the virus and there is still an ongoing fight in between the immune system and the virus that is held in no winner case that is exposing these (possibly) covid symptoms ? | 01:50 |
| LjL | snake, if you say you have chills and shortness of breath, and then you don't, the people who test you will probably kinda notice that...? | 01:50 |
| KREYREEN | so test for covid would be negative, but there would be still a lot of virus particles in the blood? | 01:50 |
| snake | ok i'll cancel it and i'll only get a test if i get symptoms | 01:51 |
| de-facto | some cases also may not develop symptoms ever (asymptomatic) still have comparable viral loads (hence potential infectiousness levels), but possibly spread it less when not coughing or sneezing | 01:51 |
| snake | LjL, its subjective | 01:51 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, yes, possibly, like by having the virus in the brain, although that's not considered *very* likely (i've often read that the neurological issues are more likely to be caused by inflammation i.e. immune reactions of various kinds than by the virus actually infiltrating the brain, but i don't think the latter has been ruled out) | 01:51 |
| de-facto | snake, cant you just tell them you got a risk contact hence want a test? because it very well could be that you are asymptomatic | 01:52 |
| snake | de-facto, usa is not that advanced | 01:52 |
| snake | we're like, retarded | 01:52 |
| ubLIX[m] | not sure that wild hypothesis can be attributed to medcram. they did mention angiogenesis routing around occluded pulmonary vasculature as a complicating factor in recovery | 01:52 |
| snake | seriously | 01:52 |
| de-facto | here in Germany they changed testing strategy too, i could still get a test without reasoning in the summer, but now testing capacity is limited, hence they only give it to symptomatic or high risk contacts afaik | 01:53 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], i'm honestly not sure whether at this point "long COVID" is even being broken down into "there's still clear pulmonary damage, and the patient can barely breathe" vs "there are various symptoms of various kinds that are disabling but there is nothing special from the imaging" | 01:53 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, i see.. So do you think that there is a trojan horse within a trojan horse scenario where the virus somehow figures out that it's loosing and it mutates into something like SARS-CoV-2.1 to have these symptoms or do you think that it's the same virus just causing different symptoms due to the location and the immune response ? | 01:53 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], so i think you could well have people who are still in "recovery" a long time afterwards because damage (to blood vessels and/or lungs) is being repaired, while in others, that doesn't need to happen (they have been mild cases to begin with), but a post-viral syndrome has been triggered | 01:54 |
| snake | i cant change my responses ;-; | 01:54 |
| snake | ugh | 01:54 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, why would the virus do that? the virus doesn't want to kill you or make you feel sick, the virus wants to replicate | 01:55 |
| snake | remember folks, honesty is always the best policy | 01:55 |
| LjL | remember folks, make up your minds before you send some answers over the internet | 01:55 |
| snake | yeah lol | 01:55 |
| snake | cant always unsend shit, ya know? | 01:56 |
| LjL | i do! | 01:56 |
| LjL | snake, anyway, to put things in perspective... i do think you should self-isolate because you do have a non-negligible chance of having caught it. at the same time, even people who *live with* people who have got COVID only get it some 40% of the time | 01:56 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, I think of scenario comparing to bacteria colony agains a desinfectant for them to evolve to handle the desinfection and spread further.. so by mutating that way it can limit the immune system reaction and replicate in the brain, etc.. ? | 01:57 |
| snake | monday is towels day tho | 01:57 |
| snake | and i need to work 2 hours | 01:57 |
| snake | i am actually off tues and wed tho | 01:58 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, there is no need to posit any mutations for it to be possible it gets into and replicates in the brain, though... | 01:58 |
| LjL | mutations can happen at any time so i cannot disprove what you say | 01:58 |
| LjL | but i see no reason to presume it either | 01:58 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, i was rather thinking that for it to spread it needs to be in the lungs mostly.. So i was thinking about retreat and regroup scenario where it gets in the brain, multiplies there and returns to the lungs? | 01:59 |
| LjL | it doesn't need to be in the lungs to spread | 01:59 |
| LjL | in fact that is likely to be an issue with (some of) the vaccines | 02:00 |
| LjL | it needs to be in the upper respiratory tract to spread | 02:00 |
| de-facto | snake, i second that, you should self isolate until you can be somewhat sure you did not catch it, so either do a RT-PCR (not a antigen-quicktest) test mid of this week like Wednesday or Thursday (4-5 days from exposure) or alternatively stay in isolation for 14 days | 02:00 |
| KREYREEN | as it's virus that mutates iradically i would think it behaving as an AI this way to go through all possible scenarios until one works | 02:00 |
| LjL | but yeah, the upper respiratory tract has blood vessels that connect to the brain | 02:00 |
| KREYREEN | i see.. same logic would apply | 02:00 |
| LjL | iradically? | 02:00 |
| LjL | this virus doesn't mutate much, for an RNA virus | 02:00 |
| snake | de-facto, maybe i'll call the pharmacy instead of doing it online, or i can ask them to reset my questions cause i messed up | 02:01 |
| ubLIX[m] | LjL: hand-waving thought: an (illness induced) weakness in circulatory function and gas-exchange surely powerfully undermines every bodily function, including resolution of systemic damage | 02:01 |
| KREYREEN | i see | 02:01 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], you know i cannot have thoughts without hand waving | 02:01 |
| KREYREEN | so you don't think that the AI-like approach woudn't be the case? meaning if it has only 20 possible paths to mutate to for it to exhaus all these to eventually find an optimal path for survival and replication ? | 02:02 |
| ubLIX[m] | well at least you're getting that much exercise | 02:02 |
| KREYREEN | which to me would make sense for it to retreat in the brain this way? | 02:02 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], anyway yeah, if your gas exchange is heavily impaired your pulse oximeter won't show a happy face and so you're probably going to be one of those "duh, their lungs/veins are still shite" long COVID patients, not one of the mysterious "omg i bet it's psychological" ones | 02:02 |
| de-facto | snake, probably not a bad idea to call them if you can get through that is | 02:03 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, meaningful mutations in this virus don't statistically happen at an individual's level. i mean, when a mutation develops, it starts from an individual, but statistically, you have around one meaningful mutation every two weeks (according to de-facto's numbers, i think)... in the population. not in a single individual. so it's very unlikely that the virus goes and "exhausts all possibilities" in just one person | 02:04 |
| KREYREEN | i see | 02:04 |
| de-facto | or alternatively you go with your messed up questions since they cant verify anyhow if you got a headache on weekend or such, just make sure you get a proper hence sensitive RT-PCR test | 02:04 |
| LjL | anyway again, to retreat to the brain it needs to get past the blood-brain barrier, which it might do, among other things, if the immune system goes haywire. much more likely than by getting some "lucky" mutation | 02:05 |
| LjL | you really don't need to posit any "AI-like" mutation to make the hypothesis that the virus lingers in the brain. it might just do that anyway. | 02:05 |
| de-facto | yeah | 02:05 |
| LjL | ubLIX[m], as to exercise, i treatmilled a whole 25 minutes today, so shush | 02:06 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, i see | 02:06 |
| de-facto | mutations are listed on https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global?l=clock and they say 22.71 subs per year, hence roughly every two weeks indeed | 02:07 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, btw are there any information on that Sputnik vaccine that russia allegadly gave to their army to combat covid? | 02:07 |
| KREYREEN | e.g. did it work? any side effects.. | 02:07 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, not many more than there are about other vaccines. just press releases. | 02:07 |
| LjL | a scientific paper on it is not out | 02:07 |
| KREYREEN | i see | 02:07 |
| LjL | they claim it does work and side effects are not serious | 02:07 |
| LjL | %links sputnik press release | 02:07 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, https://sputnikvaccine.com/newsroom/pressreleases/second-interim-analysis-of-clinical-trial-data-showed-a-91-4-efficacy-for-the-sputnik-v-vaccine-on-d/ (Second interim analysis of clinical trial data showed a 91.4% efficacy for the Sputnik V vaccine on day 28 after the first dose; vaccine efficacy is over 95% 42 days after the first dose), as announced by Gamaleya in a press [... want %more?] | 02:07 |
| de-facto | hehe thats really cool LjL :) | 02:08 |
| LjL | it is an adenovirus-based vaccine that uses two different human adenoviruses to overcome the problem of existing immunity | 02:08 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, Do you think that it went through the clinical cycle? Or is that just rushed distribution of something they think it works based on small group of people? | 02:08 |
| LjL | de-facto, maybe the site will have a minimum of usefulness now :P | 02:08 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, i think all the vaccines we're getting are *very* rushed compared to what a normal vaccine in normal times takes. i don't think i have reason to believe the russian one is more rushed than the others, Putin-daughter-stunts aside | 02:09 |
| de-facto | yes it already had it before, even more so now | 02:09 |
| LjL | they did a PR stunt to make it look like it was the "first approved" vaccine | 02:09 |
| snake | has anyone here had covid? | 02:09 |
| LjL | but that's all it was, a PR stunt... it didn't impact the trials afaik | 02:10 |
| LjL | snake, Skunny did | 02:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: Researchers fear cancer advances delay due to pandemic → https://is.gd/hauKbI | 02:10 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, i see O.o | 02:10 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, and china not developing any vaccine? | 02:10 |
| LjL | right now, the vaccine that seems rushed to me is AstraZeneca's | 02:10 |
| LjL | since i've been reading that even though they determined they will need to run another trial to clarify unclear things, it will still be approved in Europe and India before that trial ends | 02:11 |
| LjL | KREYREEN, China is developing multiple vaccines | 02:11 |
| LjL | %links covidvax | 02:11 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, https://covidvax.org/ (CovidVax), an updated list of COVID-19 vaccines | 02:11 |
| KREYREEN | thanks | 02:11 |
| de-facto | meeh LjL is too fast now with his new link magic :D | 02:11 |
| LjL | :P | 02:11 |
| de-facto | just wanted to write that too | 02:11 |
| LjL | de-facto, but i haven't actually added covidvax's *contents* yet! | 02:11 |
| snake | de-facto, write a better bot that automagically provides the vaccine list in the channel when someone is asking an appropriate question | 02:12 |
| de-facto | yeah that would be neat to scrape that into a link structure with most recent updates or such | 02:12 |
| de-facto | im not sure i could, LjL is pretty good at some things ... | 02:13 |
| LjL | it's a very annoying site to scrape, but i might do it | 02:13 |
| de-facto | wow they have 49 in human trials yet did they recently increase? | 02:14 |
| LjL | if i do it, i should probably find a way to scrape it in realtime, since the data do change | 02:15 |
| xsperry | what site? | 02:15 |
| LjL | covidvax | 02:15 |
| LjL | maybe i should have a look at scrapy's tutorials | 02:15 |
| KREYREEN | plz ping me if there are any new informations | 02:16 |
| KREYREEN | or even memoserv~ | 02:16 |
| xsperry | at a glance.. doesn't seem too difficult to scrap | 02:16 |
| de-facto | maybe with a DOM parser via XPath or such? | 02:16 |
| snake | KREYREEN, just subscribe to the rss feed.. | 02:17 |
| de-facto | yeah LjL already had a better idea with scrapy | 02:17 |
| KREYREEN | snake, too much info to siv through that keeps repeating and is not always helpful | 02:17 |
| KREYREEN | snake, e.g. mostly stating the obvious or already know or things caused by the already known | 02:18 |
| LjL | xsperry, it's not *extremely* annoying, the main thing is that i need to scrape the content from individual pages such as https://covidvax.org/covid19-vaccine/Janssen/Ad26-alone-or-with-MVA-boost-Janssen-Johnson-Johnson-Beth-Israel-Deaconess-Medical-Center-Harvard-Me because the simple list doesn't contain all required info | 02:18 |
| gigasu_shida | are the russian and chinese vaccines workable? | 02:19 |
| gigasu_shida | it's weird that they named it sputnik | 02:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virology.ws: Trial By Error: The Observer Slips Up; ME Association Responds: By David Tuller, DrPH News organizations continue to misrepresent ME (and its various iterations) in their coverage of what has come to be called long-Covid. A current UK example is Sunday’s Observer article by writer Eleanor Morgan, who is experiencing prolonged [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/EqThiN | 02:22 |
| jacklsw | ya isn't sputnik already used for russian spaceship/rocket? | 02:22 |
| KREYREEN | i would argue it being the expected name for russia's thing | 02:22 |
| gigasu_shida | sputnik meaning fellow traveler | 02:22 |
| gigasu_shida | means* | 02:22 |
| KREYREEN | like my theory was that they knew about covid for a long time and just had vaccine prepared before the even in wuhan based on them rushing vaccine and giving that to the army~ but that would be a conspiracy theory and possibly an election stunt where the vaccine was just ringer | 02:25 |
| snake | KREYREEN, relax bud, its not a conspiracy probably | 02:27 |
| LjL | de-facto, i found "another covidvax" https://covidvax.news/availability/ (it has other pages but the news seem outdated, this map is the most unique thing i found so far, the timeline is also interesting) | 02:27 |
| KREYREEN | snake, better not make any calls without evidence | 02:28 |
| snake | right | 02:28 |
| LjL | conspiracy theories like that *are* calls without evidence | 02:28 |
| snake | dont do that | 02:28 |
| snake | lol | 02:28 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, +1 | 02:28 |
| gigasu_shida | well the sputnik vaccine in theory could have been produced prior to this particular coronavirus appearing on the scene. that's because the sputnik vaccine does not use genetics or what not attributed to this particular coronavirus | 02:28 |
| gigasu_shida | i'm surprised it works | 02:29 |
| gigasu_shida | i'm surprised it works with such a high efficacy | 02:29 |
| gigasu_shida | similar to mRNA vaccines | 02:29 |
| LjL | as to the name, Sputnik 1 was the first satellite anyone managed to launch in orbit. Sputnik V was, according to their PR, the first registered COVID vaccine. i'm sure you can guess what the PR department is trying to do here... | 02:30 |
| KREYREEN | ye would think it's just a PR stunt of rushing a something that seems to work | 02:31 |
| de-facto | LjL, interesting also their progress and timetable | 02:31 |
| de-facto | what i like about covidvax.org is their link tables | 02:31 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, eh what? Sputnik doesn't use RNA but that doesn't mean it isn't using things that are unique to this virus, namely the S-protein | 02:31 |
| KREYREEN | de-facto, fair point though | 02:31 |
| KREYREEN | o.o | 02:32 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, the mRNA vaccines (some of them anyway, i'm sure there's more of them than i know about) also contain RNA to generate... the spike protein | 02:32 |
| LjL | at the end of the day the goal is the same: make the body produce neutralizing antibodies to the virus and in particular to its entry "tool" the S protein | 02:32 |
| gigasu_shida | maybe russia knew most countries wouldn't buy their vaccine, so it did kinda rush one to market that produced an immune response, even if that immune response wound wind up not yielding longer term immunity | 02:32 |
| gigasu_shida | you're probably not far off with your theory KREYREEN | 02:33 |
| gigasu_shida | but in any case it could be a viable vaccine and it could give a population immunity long enough to get rid of the virus | 02:33 |
| gigasu_shida | or at least get a population to a point where contact tracing is meaningful again | 02:34 |
| KREYREEN | i think i am.. but i find it suspicious looking at the timeline.. but like it could be something taken from a foreign country and discovered by luck through mass testing of random things | 02:34 |
| gigasu_shida | yeah ljl, the mRNA vaccines in theory should be more efficacious than the sputnik vaccine | 02:34 |
| gigasu_shida | because they produce an exact feature of this particular coronavirus | 02:35 |
| LjL | no | 02:35 |
| LjL | that's the opposite of what i just said | 02:35 |
| LjL | these adenovirus-based vaccine *contain* that exact feature, too | 02:35 |
| LjL | the reason they may be more or less efficacious have got nothing to do with how exact the features they reproduce are | 02:36 |
| gigasu_shida | that sounds wrong | 02:36 |
| LjL | mainly the worry with adenovirus-based vaccines is that the body will attack and kill the adenovirus (the vector) before it even looks at the spike protein of the virus | 02:36 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, please read again what i said | 02:36 |
| LjL | before decreeing it sounds wrong | 02:36 |
| de-facto | i dont think russia did start before anyone else on their vaccine, they just condensed their telescope-pipeline calling it "sputnik" to go ahead and certify it before anyone else, but still are in quasi phase III trials afaik like everyone else too: https://sputnikvaccine.com/newsroom/pressreleases/second-interim-analysis-of-clinical-trial-data-showed-a-91-4-efficacy-for-the-sputnik-v-vaccine-on-d/ | 02:37 |
| LjL | because you read it, then you said "yeah ljl", and then proceeded to say something completely different | 02:37 |
| de-facto | i dont think that means its particularly bad or such, just that they pulled it off a little different in terms of PR | 02:37 |
| LjL | wikipedia: Gam-COVID-Vac is a viral two-vector vaccine based on the human adenovirus — a common cold virus — fused with the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 to stimulate an immune response.[12] | 02:37 |
| LjL | the spike protein is unique to SARS-COV-2 | 02:38 |
| de-facto | its Ad26 primer with Ad5 booster afaik | 02:38 |
| de-facto | if i remember correctly | 02:38 |
| LjL | and from Derek Lowe: "[The Oxford vaccine] relies on another virus (a chimpanzee-derived adenovirus) that has had its original DNA genetic payload removed and substituted with the appropriate DNA to produce the full-length Spike protein of the coronavirus." | 02:39 |
| LjL | https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/11/23/oxford-az-vaccine-efficacy-data | 02:39 |
| gigasu_shida | ljl i never said that sputnik V didn't use things unique to this virus. i said they could have used older viruses to generate a vaccine that generates an immune response | 02:40 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, but you'd have been wrong | 02:40 |
| de-facto | yeah and that one uses the same viral vector for both primer and booster, hence maybe that may be related to it being more efficient with half primer full booster dosing scheme | 02:40 |
| LjL | there is no evidence that we can fight this virus using a vaccine made for not-this-virus | 02:40 |
| LjL | it's not impossible, but there is no positive evidence about it | 02:40 |
| de-facto | i mean the OX/AZ with the chimpanzee Adenovirus vector | 02:40 |
| gigasu_shida | that would make sense | 02:41 |
| LjL | so there is no reason for you to say that Sputnik in particular, or any adenovirus-based vaccine in general, "could have been" produced in a way that mRNA vaccines couldn't | 02:41 |
| LjL | you also said that what i said about it using the S-protein "sounds wrong", can you elaborate? | 02:41 |
| LjL | because it is, you know, not wrong | 02:41 |
| gigasu_shida | i tap out | 02:42 |
| LjL | "the mRNA vaccines in theory should be more efficacious than the sputnik vaccine because they produce an exact feature of this particular coronavirus" strongly implies that the Sputnik vaccine does *not* produce an exact feature of this particular coronavirus, or that its method of working is not that. but it *is* that, it is precisely embedding the SARS-COV-2's exact S-protein, which is the same thing that the mRNA vaccine do with the big difference that | 02:43 |
| LjL | they let the body build that protein for them | 02:43 |
| gigasu_shida | the truth is i don't know much about the sputnik vaccine. but i was under the impression that it did not 'code for' the special spike protein | 02:44 |
| LjL | it doesn't code for it. it contains it. | 02:44 |
| de-facto | i thought the viral vectors are just the "transporters" also forcing human cells to produce the antigen such as s-protein or such | 02:44 |
| LjL | de-facto, nope | 02:44 |
| LjL | at least not this one or Oxford | 02:44 |
| gigasu_shida | lol i'm talking about it like a program or something | 02:44 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, but "code for" makes me think DNA or RNA. which are involved at some point, for sure, but not when the virus is produced and in the patient's body | 02:45 |
| LjL | basically in both cases you produce the S-protein starting from its genome | 02:45 |
| LjL | but in one case, you do it outside the patient | 02:45 |
| LjL | in another, you do it inside the patient | 02:45 |
| LjL | make sense? | 02:45 |
| gigasu_shida | are you sure the sputnik vaccine contains 'code' for the S-protein | 02:45 |
| LjL | no. it contains the S-protein. | 02:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: New York City Schools Will Reopen With New COVID-19 Testing Protocol: On Sunday, Mayor Bill de Blasio announced that the nation's largest school district will begin a phased reopening on Dec. 7. → https://is.gd/DTMenn | 02:46 |
| gigasu_shida | it literally contains the S-protein | 02:46 |
| LjL | yes! | 02:46 |
| LjL | imagine a standard boring inactivated vaccine | 02:46 |
| LjL | that would contain all of the virus's proteins | 02:46 |
| LjL | instead, you make that one specific protein, the one you really want antibodies for | 02:46 |
| gigasu_shida | i recall someone in another channel saying that the sputnik vaccine could have been produced without knowledge of this particular virus | 02:47 |
| LjL | and you don't do it starting from live virus particules, you do it in the lab from RNA | 02:47 |
| gigasu_shida | so i guess that info was faulty | 02:47 |
| LjL | the mRNA vaccines skip that step, by having the patients themselves do that in their body (going from the S-protein's RNA to the actual S-protein) | 02:47 |
| gigasu_shida | do mRNA vaccines permanently modify bodily cells? | 02:47 |
| LjL | you really shouldn't perpetuate information based on the fact that "you recall someone in another channel saying it" | 02:47 |
| LjL | because that's how totally wrong urban myths happen | 02:48 |
| LjL | no, they don't | 02:48 |
| LjL | mRNA vaccines make the messenger RNA infiltrate cells, and then the cells just produce proteins from that RNA, without knowing it's not their own stuff | 02:48 |
| LjL | but that RNA never gets transcribed back into DNA, which is what a retrovirus would do | 02:48 |
| LjL | (like HIV) | 02:48 |
| LjL | so the RNA eventually just gets destroyed | 02:48 |
| de-facto | LjL, from https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/06/29/coronavirus-vaccine-update-june-29 "Viral vectors": | 02:49 |
| gigasu_shida | is there a chance that DNA can be altered tho? | 02:49 |
| de-facto | "This class uses some other infectious virus, but with its original genetic material removed. In its place goes genetic instructions to make coronavirus proteins, and when your infected cells do that, it will set off an immune response. Note that this is different than being infected with a “real” virus, whose instructions are (naturally enough) to produce more virus, which go off and infect more cells. No, in this case each vi | 02:49 |
| de-facto | ral particle that you’re injected with will be able to infect one cell, and that’s it." | 02:49 |
| de-facto | so i understand that is pretty similar to those mRNA concepts | 02:49 |
| KREYREEN | T-T | 02:50 |
| LjL | de-facto, uh you're actually right, but then why aren't these called... mRNA vaccines? if the vector is the only difference, the vaccine class is mainly the same | 02:50 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, i suppose some freak incident could happen where reverse transcriptase comes on the scene for some reason and grabs the mRNA and puts it into DNA. i'd call it extremely unlikely at best | 02:51 |
| de-facto | hence forcing a cell with the mRNA (or cDNA or what that was called?) hence "recipe" to produce the antigen e.g. s-protein that get exposed on that cells surface then to provoke an immune response | 02:51 |
| gigasu_shida | ok ljl so there's nothing to fear | 02:52 |
| gigasu_shida | we have more to fear from the non-active ingredients than from the active ingredients of the vax | 02:52 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, well, the active ingredient does cause an immune reaction that gives some relatively strong adverse effects | 02:53 |
| de-facto | LjL, i am not sure why they called them like this, maybe because of the viral vector being the first significant difference visible for the immune system (e.g. could develop antibodies against the vaccine viral vector itself)? | 02:53 |
| LjL | by "relatively strong" i mean "ultimately harmless to the best of our knowledge, but you'll probably want to take a day off | 02:53 |
| LjL | endquote | 02:53 |
| gigasu_shida | lol ok | 02:54 |
| LjL | i.e. fever and such | 02:54 |
| LjL | but it's probably inevitable | 02:54 |
| LjL | it's something our body has never seen and it's going to freak out a little | 02:54 |
| LjL | if they had found *strong* adverse reactions caused by the immune system, i think we'd probably know by now | 02:54 |
| de-facto | but there are some vaccines indeed that use nanoparticles to present the antigen itself (e.g. the s-protein) in the correct orientation to the immune system | 02:55 |
| gigasu_shida | de-facto: isn't that what the sputnik vaccine does? | 02:55 |
| gigasu_shida | i don't really know what you mean by 'correct orientation' | 02:55 |
| de-facto | i think this here is one of such tech-pipelines to present the antigen itself https://www.novavax.com/our-unique-technology#matrix-m-adjuvant-technology | 02:56 |
| LjL | and for the record, Sputnik also works by having the S-protein's RNA in it, and making your cells produce the S-protein, as explained on its official site here https://sputnikvaccine.com/about-vaccine/ so wikipedia (and bloomberg, which it quotes as a source) is wrong | 02:56 |
| gigasu_shida | so sputnik is also an mRNA vaccine? | 02:57 |
| gigasu_shida | well, i guess mRNA means it produces something similar to the S-protein but not quite exactly? | 02:58 |
| gigasu_shida | whereas having the S-Protein whole RNA means it can make the body produce the exact S-protein? | 02:58 |
| gigasu_shida | i'm lost | 02:58 |
| de-facto | i think the sputnik vaccine may be just a viral vector one afaik so it also would contain the "recipe" to produce either the full or relevent parts of the s-protein (possibly in some stabilized form) | 02:59 |
| de-facto | if mRNA is the only way to do that i dont know, actually i think there are also other ways (some DNA related ways etc) | 03:00 |
| gigasu_shida | maybe it injects live adenovirus as the replicating machinery? | 03:01 |
| de-facto | one difference between viral vectors and those plain (nanoparticle?) mRNA vaccines would be the storage temperature requirements: the mRNA vaccines require much deeper freezing to be stable than the viral vectors | 03:01 |
| LjL | oh lord i don't remember mediawiki syntax | 03:01 |
| gigasu_shida | and it 'manufactures' the S-protein using the adenovirus machinery | 03:01 |
| de-facto | no the adenovirus is replicant-deficient, hence cant reproduce itself anymore, just the antigen (s-protein or such) | 03:01 |
| de-facto | its a one time delivery to infect a cell, but that cell only can produce the antigen and not the vaccine viral vector | 03:02 |
| de-facto | anyhow i gonna have to catch some sleep, have an appointment tomorrow | 03:03 |
| gigasu_shida | does the medical community trust the adenovirus? | 03:03 |
| joerg | de-facto: what are the hot news of the day? :) | 03:04 |
| joerg | oh, appointment. Good luck | 03:06 |
| de-facto | thanks | 03:08 |
| LjL | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gam-COVID-Vac#Description_of_how_vaccine_works_seems_wrong | 03:08 |
| LjL | gigasu_shida, sputnik is not an mRNA vaccine because that's not how the term "mRNA vaccine" is used, apparently... but it still does contain mRNA as its primary means of working, apparently | 03:09 |
| gigasu_shida | i think mRNA vaccine means it contains bare mRNA | 03:09 |
| LjL | yeah, something like that | 03:09 |
| LjL | although i don't think the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines contain really *bare* mRNA | 03:10 |
| LjL | i'm not sure here, but i think they still have some magic to make that mRNA more likely to enter cells | 03:10 |
| LjL | it's just not very specific magic like "an adenovirus" | 03:10 |
| LjL | Derek Lowe has articles on the specifics, trouble is... he has many articles :P | 03:10 |
| LjL | okay, now wikipedia is at least ready and willing to obtain a better cite | 03:16 |
| gigasu_shida | maybe the adenovirus delivery mechanism is a good idea | 03:20 |
| gigasu_shida | but there apparently have been doubts about the adenovirus | 03:21 |
| gigasu_shida | that it may not be the perfect delivery vehicle | 03:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +7338 cases (now 2.2 million) since 20 hours ago — Netherlands: +4217 cases (now 521672), +28 deaths (now 9382) since 20 hours ago — New Zealand: +6 cases (now 2056) since 2 days ago | 03:21 |
| gigasu_shida | like as a delivery vehicle it doesn't just do its job and get out of the way, but produces side effects | 03:21 |
| LjL | the adenovirus is "empty" | 03:22 |
| LjL | it's basically an adenovirus *shell*, without the virus's genome inside | 03:22 |
| LjL | but i'm not thrilled by the adenovirus vaccines for other reasons | 03:23 |
| LjL | namely your immune system may react to the adenovirus itself | 03:23 |
| LjL | and then it either destroys it before the RNA that matters reaches your cells | 03:23 |
| LjL | or even if it doesn't manage to do that right away, it builds up antibodies against it over time, and later you can't get a proper booster shot because it will destroy it | 03:24 |
| joerg | which is the commonly most preferred explanation why the 0.5|1 scheme works *better* than the 1|1 | 03:24 |
| LjL | and since 1) most COVID vaccines are designed to require at least one booster shot and 2) it's likely immunity may only last a year or so, so we'll have to get vaccinated every year | 03:24 |
| LjL | it's a bit of a problem if you have to find a new type of adenovirus every year, maybe | 03:24 |
| LjL | joerg, yes, another being "they have small numbers that are dubiously statistically significant and they basically messed up the trial and now they have to do another so that we learn what's actually up with it" :P | 03:25 |
| LjL | the "0.5" dose was given only to people up to 55 years old | 03:25 |
| LjL | now, previously, they had data that seemed to indicate that their vaccine built up a *stronger* immune resource in *older* people | 03:26 |
| joerg | idiots | 03:26 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Carrageenan nasal spray may double the rate of recovery from coronavirus and influenza virus infections: re-analysis of randomized trial data (80 votes) | https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-108775/v1 | https://redd.it/k2x7h3 | 03:26 |
| LjL | but well... at that point, it's just a mess. one thing contradicts the other. hence, new trial. | 03:26 |
| LjL | i'd *really* like to know what the confidence interval for that 70% (or 62%) effectiveness number is, incidentally | 03:27 |
| LjL | like if i could know one thing about COVID that's not something obvious like "the magical cure for it", that's probably what i'd want to know right now | 03:27 |
| joerg | oh Carrageenan, what could possibly go wrong | 03:28 |
| joerg | I only know carragen as food conservant which is considered "better not, may cause nasty issues" IIRC stuff like mouth and throat mucous membrane fungus or somesuch | 03:41 |
| joerg | german vs english wikipedia again, oh my.... https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrageen%23Gesundheit vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrageenan#Toxicity_research | 04:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Malaria death toll to exceed COVID-19’s in sub-Saharan Africa – WHO → https://is.gd/YwdwCl | 04:23 |
| LjL | quick and dirty for now | 04:37 |
| LjL | %vax Moderna | 04:38 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, Researcher: Moderna + NIAID, Country: USA, Trial start: Mar 16, Vaccine type: mRNA-1273 | 04:38 |
| LjL | de-facto, ↑ | 04:38 |
| LjL | i'm just scraping the list page for now, so not much info | 04:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: China's vaccines may have 'appeal' in developing countries, economist says: Developing countries may have a long wait for a vaccine developed in the West, but there's always the option of turning to China , says an economist from DBS. → https://is.gd/qA1nMI | 05:01 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +2151 cases (now 576599), +86 deaths (now 16547) since a day ago | 05:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: New York will reopen elementary schools and reduce hybrid learning → https://is.gd/HOvl19 | 05:50 |
| the-wes | the best part will be when chinese citizens demand the US-made vaccines and refuse to use their own | 05:57 |
| LjL | i don't think that will happens, but we'll see i guess (or not since we barely get news from china) | 06:10 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Airway antibodies wane rapidly after COVID-19 but B cell memory is generated across disease severity (82 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.25.20238592v1 | https://redd.it/k3i2bp | 06:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from EurekAlert!: COVID-19 studies should also focus on mucosal immunity, researchers argue: More COVID-19 studies should be devoted to how immunity emerges to SARS-CoV-2 in the mucous membranes of the nose and mouth, a new paper argues. → https://is.gd/5LZrUu | 06:26 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Nunavut, Canada: +13 cases (now 177) since a day ago — Germany: +3197 cases (now 1.1 million) since 17 hours ago | 07:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Australia's emissions fell 3% in year to June amid Covid shutdown. The government said it meant Australia had beaten its international 2020 target – widely regarded among experts as an unambitious goal. Experts said much of the fall in emissions were unrelated to federal government action. → https://is.gd/qKZ07Y | 07:15 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Saint Petersburg, Russia: +3701 cases (now 122216), +62 deaths (now 5412) since a day ago — Kiev, Ukraine: +1740 cases (now 69018), +11 deaths (now 1279) since a day ago — Moscow Oblast, Russia: +1069 cases (now 109962), +20 deaths (now 2051) since a day ago — Himachal Pradesh, India: +1026 cases (now 40003), +12 deaths (now 635) since a day ago | 07:20 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +138712 cases (now 13.8 million), +808 deaths (now 273077) since 18 hours ago | 07:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid infections in England fall by 30% over lockdown - React study → https://is.gd/rLf5qz | 07:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science-Based Medicine: No, the Moderna and Pfizer RNA vaccines against COVID-19 will not “permanently alter your DNA”: With the new mRNA vaccines developed by Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna likely to be starting to become available soon, antivaxxers have been ramping up the fear mongering. Their latest claim is that mRNA vaccines will [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/mM6UvG | 09:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Taiwan: +24 cases (now 675) since a day ago | 09:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Veterinary medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Purevax RC, vaccine against feline viral rhinotracheitis and feline calicivirosis, Date of authorisation: 23/02/2005, Revision: 14, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/6w45sW | 09:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: PM calls for 'unity' as he agrees to publish data behind new tiers → https://is.gd/Zbn29l | 09:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Vitamin D Insufficiency May Account for Almost Nine of Ten COVID-19 Deaths: Time to Act. → https://is.gd/o4IsG5 | 10:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Anguilla: +2 cases (now 6) since 6 days ago | 10:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid infections in England fall by 30% over lockdown - React study → https://is.gd/rLf5qz | 10:30 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Vitamin D Insufficiency May Account for Almost Nine of Ten COVID-19 Deaths: Time to Act. Comment on: “Vitamin D Deficiency and Outcome of COVID-19 Patients”. Nutrients 2020, 12, 2757 (90 votes) | https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/12/12/3642 | https://redd.it/k3r351 | 10:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Biotech: STAT+: ‘How are we going to get on that plane?’: The transatlantic race to deliver CAR-T cancer therapy during the pandemic → https://is.gd/iAuCTK | 10:42 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Fiji: +4 cases (now 42) since 5 days ago | 11:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Exclusive: Divisions emerge among U.S. officials over when first Covid-19 vaccine doses will be available — and for whom → https://is.gd/KS5jMF | 11:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: PM calls for 'unity' as he agrees to publish data behind new tiers → https://is.gd/Zbn29l | 11:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronavirusUK: After being thrown under the bus in april/may, it feels good to see this today as a nursing home worker. #ihopeitssoon → https://is.gd/86Drtn | 12:12 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +8782 cases (now 327072), +60 deaths (now 4705) since 21 hours ago | 12:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: PM calls for 'unity' as he agrees to publish data behind new tiers → https://is.gd/Zbn29l | 12:24 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +139441 cases (now 13.8 million), +832 deaths (now 273101) since 23 hours ago | 12:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Download the daily number of new reported cases of COVID-19 by country worldwide: The downloadable data file is updated daily and contains the latest available public data on COVID-19. You may use the data in line with ECDC’s copyright policy. → https://is.gd/zYsz7d | 12:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +4946 cases (now 1.1 million), +169 deaths (now 16560) since 22 hours ago | 12:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid: PM calls for 'unity' as he agrees to publish data behind new tiers → https://is.gd/Zbn29l | 13:14 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Palestine: +2062 cases (now 85647), +15 deaths (now 732) since a day ago | 13:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Moderna says new data shows Covid vaccine is more than 94% effective, plans to ask FDA for emergency clearance later Monday → https://is.gd/khle2P | 13:26 |
| Jigsy | Trouble in vaccineville? | 13:33 |
| Jigsy | Side effects of the vaccine. | 13:33 |
| genr8_ | im sure its fine | 13:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: COVID-19: Can taking the window seat on a plane lower your risk of getting infected? Find out → https://is.gd/vNbCcd | 13:51 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Fauci: US may see 'surge upon surge' of virus in weeks ahead (10038 votes) | https://rapidcityjournal.com/news/national/fauci-us-may-see-surge-upon-surge-of-virus-in-weeks-ahead/article_f6a79628-321f-54a8-a060-aab3dd7d5624.html | https://redd.it/k3km13 | 13:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Face masks leave us feeling isolated and stressed, survey reveals: Face coverings, a key tool in our fight against COVID-19, have impeded our ability to hear, understand, engage and connect with others, according to a study by University of Manchester researchers. → https://is.gd/sHunm3 | 14:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Moderna says new data shows Covid vaccine is more than 94% effective, plans to ask FDA for emergency clearance later Monday → https://is.gd/khle2P | 14:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Moderna asking US, European regulators to OK its virus shots: Moderna Inc. said it would ask U.S. and European regulators Monday to allow emergency use of its COVID-19 vaccine as new study results confirm the shots offer strong protection—ramping up the race to begin limited vaccinations as the coronavirus rampage worsens. → https://is.gd/cMVgqe | 14:28 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +3658 cases (now 523478) since 23 hours ago | 14:37 |
| KREYREEN | LjL, Do you have any info about post-covid patients that has Haemophilia in relation to the blood cloths ? | 14:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Hong Kong reimposes strict social distancing as fourth wave strikes: Hong Kong reimposed social distancing measures at some of their strictest levels in the city since the start of the coronavirus pandemic on Monday, as authorities battle a fourth wave of infections. → https://is.gd/3BXT56 | 14:40 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for US: +140563 cases (now 13.8 million), +844 deaths (now 273113) since 23 hours ago | 14:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Moderna says new data shows Covid vaccine is more than 94% effective, plans to ask FDA for emergency clearance later Monday → https://is.gd/khle2P | 15:05 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Moderna Announces Primary Efficacy Analysis in Phase 3 COVE Study for Its COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate and Filing Today with U.S. FDA for Emergency Use Authorization (80 votes) | https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-primary-efficacy-analysis-phase-3-cove-study | https://redd.it/k3ule4 | 15:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: Goldman Sachs predicts how quickly coronavirus vaccines will be rolled out worldwide: Investment bank Goldman Sachs has forecast that more than 70% of people in developed markets will be vaccinated against the coronavirus by fall 2021. → https://is.gd/5HNYHH | 15:18 |
| Jigsy | Almost another year of lockdown, eh? | 15:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: 7 ways meaningful activities can help us get through the coronavirus pandemic: We hear over and over that it is important to remain occupied during pandemic restrictions. People are gardening, baking bread and taking on DIY projects in record numbers. But what exactly does all this "occupation" do for us in stressful times? → https://is.gd/EFMqov | 15:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Dangers of a sedentary COVID-19 lockdown: Inactivity can take a toll on health in just two weeks: As the world digs in for the second wave of COVID-19, flu season and winter, people also face a serious risk from reduced physical activity—especially older adults. Developing a plan to be physically active now will help you to [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/3X63bK | 15:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Young adults, unfairly blamed for COVID-19 spread, now face stress and uncertain futures: At the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic there was an enormous amount of concern and attention focused on elderly people—and for good reason: people over the age of 65 years are among the most vulnerable to serious health complications, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/2w2zX8 | 15:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Up to 30% of Americans may be infected with coronavirus by year-end, Dr. Scott Gottlieb says → https://is.gd/Cd0xzK | 16:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Two out of three people would have a COVID-19 vaccine when one becomes available: Scientists at Keele University and King's College London have found that 64% of people would be likely to have a COVID-19 vaccination when one became available. → https://is.gd/WM9Bkr | 16:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: How lockdown may lead to 'avoidable harm' for the health of under-16s: Decreases in hospital attendances and admissions amid fears of COVID-19 may result in avoidable harm for under 16s say researchers, who warn against the "unintended consequences of pandemic control measures." → https://is.gd/JI8uK9 | 16:46 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: ‘Absolutely remarkable’: No one who got Moderna's vaccine in trial developed severe COVID-19 (85 votes) | https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/11/absolutely-remarkable-no-one-who-got-modernas-vaccine-trial-developed-severe-covid-19 | https://redd.it/k3w871 | 16:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Watch live: New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo holds a press briefing on Covid after NYC reopens some schools → https://is.gd/u9jVCK | 16:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +16376 cases (now 1.6 million), +672 deaths (now 55576) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +10341 cases (now 1.6 million), +154 deaths (now 58448) since 10 hours ago | 17:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Responsible Gambling Telephone Intervention to High-risk Gamblers by a State-owned Gambling Operator in Sweden. → https://is.gd/ul4GTG | 17:24 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Arizona, US: +822 cases (now 326817), +5 deaths (now 6639) since 20 hours ago — Botswana: +484 cases (now 10742), +3 deaths (now 34) since 4 days ago | 17:37 |
| LjL | ho ho! https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/k2doss/the_early_cryptic_transmission_and_evolution_of/ge5qwt7/ | 18:21 |
| LjL | "I want to download the paper today (Nov. 30) using your ssrn link. No results were found. Searching by the title yields the same result. Looks like the paper has been pulled. Was it not peer-reviewed already?" | 18:21 |
| LjL | help me solve this mystery? | 18:21 |
| LjL | i found this article | 18:21 |
| LjL | https://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1208404.shtml | 18:21 |
| LjL | it says "A recent pre-print study, titled the Early Cryptic Transmission and Evolution of SARS-CoV-2 in Human Hosts, that **was** about to be published in top medical journal The Lancet" | 18:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): First 'mass air shipment' of Pfizer's Covid vaccine arrives as airlines prepare for more → https://is.gd/aijo8A | 18:26 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Moderna says new data shows Covid vaccine is more than 94% effective, plans to ask FDA for emergency clearance later Monday (10028 votes) | https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/30/moderna-covid-vaccine-is-94point1percent-effective-plans-to-apply-for-emergency-ok-monday.html | https://redd.it/k3ujwk | 18:26 |
| LjL | well this is what i figured out so far https://np.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/k2doss/the_early_cryptic_transmission_and_evolution_of/ge605au/ | 18:32 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: A baby was just born with coronavirus immunity. The baby’s mother survived a mild case of COVID-19 in March, while she was 10-weeks pregnant. The mother’s SARS-CoV-2 antibodies disappeared, but doctors discovered that the boy was born with circulating antibodies → https://is.gd/ipbEwy | 18:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: How 'smell training' could help overcome post-viral smell distortions: If you've been experiencing odor distortions after COVID-19, then 'smell training' could help you start smelling normally again—according to new research involving the University of East Anglia. → https://is.gd/Fb1J1h | 18:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Combination therapy might improve outcomes in treatment-resistant liver cancer: A combination cancer therapy that is effective against treatment-resistant hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC) by inhibiting tumor growth and increasing survival has been identified by researchers at Massachusetts General Hospital (MGH). In a paper [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/rJq85i | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): Moderna says new data shows Covid vaccine is more than 94% effective, plans to ask FDA for emergency clearance later Monday → https://is.gd/khle2P | 19:03 |
| Jigsy | I'm still curious about long term side-effects. | 19:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Why an antidepressant could be used to treat COVID-19: A commonly used drug called fluvoxamine was recently tested as a treatment for COVID-19 in the United States. The 152 patients enrolled in the trial had been confirmed to have COVID-19 using a PCR test, and had seen symptoms appear within the past seven days. → https://is.gd/Y6CwbU | 19:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): New York implements emergency hospital measures as Covid cases surge, Gov. Cuomo says → https://is.gd/KU71t1 | 19:27 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +18753 cases (now 1.7 million), +401 deaths (now 45069) since 3 days ago | 19:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): First 'mass air shipment' of Pfizer's Covid vaccine arrives as airlines prepare for more → https://is.gd/aijo8A | 19:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Struggles of care home staff during COVID-19 first wave revealed in Whatsapp messages: Analysis of social media messages between care home staff on the coronavirus front line reveal their growing concerns over how to manage in the face of the virus. → https://is.gd/hETb4t | 19:51 |
| de-facto | LjL, https://www.newsbomb.gr/media/com_news/attachments/626/ssrn-id3724275_0.pdf | 19:59 |
| euod[m] | LjL: https://web.archive.org/web/20201127124318/https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3724275 | 19:59 |
| LjL | de-facto, thanks! where did you reach it? is it likely to stay? | 19:59 |
| de-facto | dont link it | 19:59 |
| de-facto | i dont think it will stay, just download it | 19:59 |
| LjL | oh, i was about to link it, okay then | 20:00 |
| de-facto | https://metager.de/ is a really cool german meta search engine :) got more results than google | 20:00 |
| LjL | euod[m], that's the link i already have in my post, but you can't get the PDF from there i think | 20:00 |
| de-facto | maybe download it, upload it somewhere else and link to it | 20:00 |
| LjL | de-facto, what about telling archive.org about it? | 20:01 |
| euod[m] | https://web.archive.org/web/20201130190005/https://www.newsbomb.gr/media/com_news/attachments/626/ssrn-id3724275_0.pdf | 20:01 |
| LjL | oookay, i guess no need to answer that question now :P | 20:01 |
| LjL | de-facto, but well, i guess the question stands actually, bad idea to link the archive.org link? since it lets people know about the original link? | 20:02 |
| euod[m] | you can also just upload the file directly to archive.org if you want. | 20:03 |
| LjL | i also put it on archive.is | 20:03 |
| LjL | did you know webcitation is dead | 20:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: WHO says 'will do everything' to find COVID-19 origins: The World Health Organization insisted Monday it would do everything possible to find the animal origins of COVID-19, insisting that knowledge was vital to preventing future outbreaks. → https://is.gd/NXEeNy | 20:04 |
| de-facto | i just would not link to that url because someone seems to clean it from the web with much effort | 20:04 |
| de-facto | hence upload it somewhere else independently if you want to link to it | 20:04 |
| euod[m] | it's also timestamped. | 20:05 |
| LjL | err, be careful though, it's technically a copyright violation, and technically speaking as a room admin i'm not allowed to allow that | 20:07 |
| LjL | is there an anonymous service where this can be uploaded without the original link showing and where it's easily accessible by people on reddit? | 20:08 |
| tinwhiskers | also, it may have been retracted for a good reason. | 20:08 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, that doesn't mean we shouldn't be allowed to still read it IMO | 20:08 |
| LjL | retracted is one thing, "wiped from the web" is another | 20:08 |
| euod[m] | if it was published it should be visible, even if retracted. | 20:08 |
| LjL | "retracted" should mean there's a big red box saying "THIS PAPER WAS RETRACTED" | 20:08 |
| euod[m] | retracting is an admission of failure, you don't get to hide it. | 20:08 |
| tinwhiskers | hrm. yeah | 20:09 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, consider that in my search for it i found several articles referencing this preprint including its bold claims that it didn't originate in China | 20:09 |
| LjL | now if the paper i found on science is the actual published version of the preprint | 20:09 |
| LjL | well, it's entirely different | 20:09 |
| LjL | the claims it makes are much milder, at least in literal terms | 20:09 |
| LjL | which are the terms which newspapers pick up | 20:09 |
| LjL | it still *implies* it, but only by talking about sequences and stuff | 20:10 |
| euod[m] | this article reads super weirdly. | 20:10 |
| LjL | i quote from the preprint: | 20:10 |
| LjL | "Thus, it is impossible that human-to-human SARS-CoV-2 transmission first happened in Wuhan, China." | 20:10 |
| euod[m] | "The first known COVID-19 epidemic broke out in December, 2019, in Wuhan City, China. The news reported that the early SARS-CoV-2’s cases were tightly linked to a sea food market in Wuhan, but its origin is still veiled in secrecy." | 20:10 |
| LjL | this is a very specific, very bold claim | 20:10 |
| LjL | that i don't think the published paper (assuming it's the "same" paper) makes | 20:10 |
| de-facto | LjL, which is the published version of that paper? | 20:11 |
| LjL | de-facto, read my comment https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/k2doss/the_early_cryptic_transmission_and_evolution_of/ge605au/ | 20:11 |
| LjL | i'd link to you directly but the context is important | 20:11 |
| LjL | because i don't *know* it's the "same" paper | 20:11 |
| LjL | i'm making inferences | 20:11 |
| euod[m] | lol what | 20:12 |
| euod[m] | this paper also claims that COVID19 was active in India and Pakistan in May 2019. | 20:12 |
| LjL | the published one? | 20:12 |
| euod[m] | "The water shortage made wild animals such as monkeys engage in the deadly fight over water among each other and would have surely increased the chance of human-wild animal interactions. We speculated that the zoonotic transmission of SARS-CoV-2 might be associated with this unusual heat wave as well/" | 20:12 |
| euod[m] | "Before it was identified in Wuhan in December, 2019, SARS-CoV-2 had been spread to four continents without detection. In this regard, the COVID-19 pandemic is inevitable in 2020 and the Wuhan epidemic is only a part of it. We hope that our work could shed some light on this cryptic virus, but there are still many unanswered questions around SARS-CoV-2." | 20:13 |
| de-facto | LjL, thanks | 20:13 |
| euod[m] | alright this is just hysterical. | 20:13 |
| LjL | yeah, like | 20:13 |
| LjL | the actual published paper never *mentions* India | 20:13 |
| tinwhiskers | euod[m]: yeah, that's some terrible writing | 20:13 |
| LjL | or Italy or the other places that were mentioned in the preprint | 20:13 |
| LjL | so it may just be a paper or roughly the same topic and by the same authors | 20:13 |
| LjL | it's hard to claim it's the same paper, "just published instead of a preprint", in any meaningful way | 20:14 |
| LjL | plus, the preprint was supposed to get published on The Lancet | 20:14 |
| euod[m] | tinwhiskers: this isn't even academic style, it's what I would expect from reading a fox new article or something. | 20:14 |
| LjL | instead this is published on uh, sciencedirect or nature | 20:14 |
| tinwhiskers | yeah | 20:14 |
| LjL | the whole core claim of the preprint was to say that the spillover to humans and initial mutations happened in the Indian subcontinent | 20:15 |
| LjL | i'll let you judge on the writing style etc... *if* we are allowed to read it | 20:15 |
| LjL | anyway, i didn't get that many critical comments on my reddit post about it | 20:15 |
| LjL | so if you can make informed statements on how the paper is bullshit, please go ahead and make them there too | 20:16 |
| euod[m] | I just love chinese propaganda in general. | 20:16 |
| tinwhiskers | well, I don't just mean terrible writing style. It's making some huuuge speculative leaps and sweeping statements that don't hold up. | 20:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): First 'mass air shipment' of Pfizer's Covid vaccine arrives as airlines prepare for more → https://is.gd/aijo8A | 20:16 |
| euod[m] | right. | 20:17 |
| tinwhiskers | good that the later article they published tamed that down | 20:17 |
| LjL | yeah, whatever it is, tell reddit :P especially now that the paper is gone, it's worth exposing it | 20:17 |
| euod[m] | I shows where the intent is from though. | 20:17 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, i am really not convinced it's the "same" article or even intended to be the same | 20:17 |
| tinwhiskers | I didn't say it was the same. | 20:17 |
| tinwhiskers | but the same people making claims along the same lines without the same obvious faults. | 20:18 |
| de-facto | what i find interesting about that paper might be their method of analyzing the phylogenetic tree, not sure if its proper (didnt reat into it yet) but interesting | 20:20 |
| LjL | tinwhiskers, yes but i'm just saying i'm not sure if they decided to "tame it down when publishing", or it's just a parallel thing | 20:21 |
| LjL | so anyway what would you recommend i link to give reddit to read? | 20:21 |
| LjL | archive.is archive.org somethingelse.whoknows | 20:21 |
| LjL | i don't think linking to the matrix.org link is a great idea | 20:21 |
| tinwhiskers | de-facto: yeah, there may be some flaws in relying only on parsimony without sanity checking. | 20:21 |
| de-facto | just dont link at that url i posted, we dont want to relate to that in any way | 20:22 |
| LjL | de-facto, well what i'm saying is archive.org and archive.is *show* that URL when you click on theirs (in the case of archive.org, it's inside its own URL) | 20:22 |
| LjL | euod[m] said i can upload directly to archive.org (not wayback machine) but it looks like i need an account for that | 20:22 |
| LjL | and i don't really want to be traceable as the one who did it | 20:23 |
| euod[m] | you do | 20:23 |
| de-facto | hmm, maybe dont link at all to it because there might be good reasons for them to have deleted it from all known locations | 20:23 |
| de-facto | especially since we did not read all of it yet | 20:23 |
| Brainstorm | New from CNBC Health: (news): New York implements emergency hospital measures as Covid cases surge, Gov. Cuomo says → https://is.gd/KU71t1 | 20:29 |
| IndoAnon | de-facto: long time, no see | 20:36 |
| IndoAnon | do you read my mentions? | 20:36 |
| de-facto | Hey IndoAnon :) | 20:39 |
| de-facto | yes i read the paper you linked | 20:40 |
| de-facto | you mean the one about antibody lifetime? | 20:41 |
| IndoAnon | yeah | 20:45 |
| IndoAnon | Doesn't look that good. Also, about pseudo vaccine with RBD purchased from cansino | 20:46 |
| de-facto | ah yeah i discussed about it with yuri-who in #coronavirus for quite some time | 20:50 |
| de-facto | thanks for linking to it | 20:50 |
| IndoAnon | ok | 20:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Emergency department doctors ask: "Where did all the patients go?": During the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic in New England, emergency department visits for medical emergencies—including psychiatric problems, trauma and heart attacks—declined by nearly a third, raising concerns among clinicians that critically ill [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/zJhHVL | 20:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Americans face new COVID-19 restrictions after Thanksgiving: Americans returning home from Thanksgiving break faced strict new coronavirus measures around the country Monday as health officials brace for a disastrous worsening of the out-of-control surge because of holiday gatherings over the long weekend. → https://is.gd/KlNlRE | 21:19 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Tennessee, US: +7975 cases (now 374493), +48 deaths (now 4602) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +16231 cases (now 1.1 million), +334 deaths (now 16830) since a day ago | 21:22 |
| joerg | moin | 21:29 |
| euod[m] | .cases US | 21:34 |
| Brainstorm | euod[m]: In US, there have been 13.8 million confirmed cases (4.2% of the population) and 273709 deaths (2.0% of cases) as of 22 minutes ago. 192.3 million tests were performed (7.2% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.2% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.2% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 21:34 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Rhode Island, US: +2769 cases (now 56723), +27 deaths (now 1373) since 3 days ago — Canada: +4971 cases (now 374051), +52 deaths (now 12076) since 23 hours ago | 21:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for St. Barthelemy: +20 cases (now 147), +1 deaths (now 1) since 11 days ago — Netherlands: +4490 cases (now 524766) since 20 hours ago | 22:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS ONE: Essential gene prediction using limited gene essentiality information–An integrative semi-supervised machine learning strategy: by Sutanu Nandi, Piyali Ganguli, Ram Rup Sarkar Essential gene prediction helps to find minimal genes indispensable for the survival of any organism. Machine learning (ML) algorithms have been useful for [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/YzzJkU | 22:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS ONE: Myths, beliefs, and perceptions about COVID-19 in Ethiopia: A need to address information gaps and enable combating efforts: by Yohannes Kebede, Zewdie Birhanu, Diriba Fufa, Yimenu Yitayih, Jemal Abafita, Ashenafi Belay, Abera Jote, Argaw Ambelu Background The endeavor to tackle the spread of COVID-19 effectively remains futile [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/dxSGoX | 22:21 |
| syntax77[m] | <joerg "moin"> Moin jörg. | 22:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS ONE: Seroprevalence analysis of SARS-CoV-2 in pregnant women along the first pandemic outbreak and perinatal outcome: by Cecilia Villalaín, Ignacio Herraiz, Joanna Luczkowiak, Alfredo Pérez-Rivilla, María Dolores Folgueira, Inmaculada Mejía, Emma Batllori, Eva Felipe, Beatriz Risco, Alberto Galindo, Rafael Delgado Objectives To [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/7d6kLI | 22:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS ONE: Risk factors for predicting mortality of COVID-19 patients: A systematic review and meta-analysis: by Lan Yang, Jing Jin, Wenxin Luo, Yuncui Gan, Bojiang Chen, Weimin Li Background Early and accurate prognosis prediction of the patients was urgently warranted due to the widespread popularity of COVID-19. We performed a meta-analysis [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/SrSJms | 22:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS ONE: The PLOS ONE Editors: Expression of Concern: Lung ultrasound score in establishing the timing of intubation in COVID-19 interstitial pneumonia: A preliminary retrospective observational study → https://is.gd/XiRyht | 22:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from PLOS: Estimated impact of RTS,S/AS01 malaria vaccine allocation strategies in sub-Saharan Africa: A modelling study: by Alexandra B. Hogan, Peter Winskill, Azra C. Ghani Background The RTS,S/AS01 vaccine against Plasmodium falciparum malaria infection completed phase III trials in 2014 and demonstrated efficacy against clinical malaria of [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Hib5wW | 23:10 |
| derpadmin | %cases US | 23:16 |
| Brainstorm | derpadmin: In US, there have been 13.9 million confirmed cases (4.2% of the population) and 274024 deaths (2.0% of cases) as of 13 minutes ago. 192.3 million tests were performed (7.2% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.2% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.2% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=US for time series data. | 23:16 |
| derpadmin | %cases France | 23:16 |
| Brainstorm | derpadmin: In France, there have been 2.2 million confirmed cases (3.3% of the population) and 52731 deaths (2.4% of cases) as of 2 hours ago. 20.6 million tests were performed (10.8% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=France for time series data. | 23:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from FDA Press Releases: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: FDA Announces Advisory Committee Meeting to Discuss Second COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate: FDA has scheduled a meeting of its Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee (VRBPAC) on Dec. 17, 2020 to discuss Moderna’s emergency use authorization request for a COVID-19 vaccine. → https://is.gd/DKMTfx | 23:23 |
| de-facto | %title https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-primary-efficacy-analysis-phase-3-cove-study | 23:27 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From investors.modernatx.com: Moderna Announces Primary Efficacy Analysis in Phase 3 COVE Study for Its COVID-19 Vaccine Candidate and Filing Today with U.S. FDA for Emergency Use Authorization | Moderna, Inc. | 23:27 |
| LjL | %title https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/30/asia/wuhan-china-covid-intl/index.html? | 23:33 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From edition.cnn.com: Leaked documents reveal China's mishandling of the early stages of Covid-19 pandemic - CNN | 23:33 |
| LjL | de-facto, well THAT is a solid result, not lolstrazeneca | 23:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Leaked documents reveal China's mishandling of the early stages of Covid-19 pandemic → https://is.gd/QaWaDA | 23:36 |
| LjL | At the same time that the virus is believed to have first emerged, the documents show another health crisis was unfolding: Hubei was dealing with a significant influenza outbreak. It caused cases to rise to 20 times the level recorded the previous year, the documents show, placing enormous levels of additional stress on an already stretched health care system. | 23:41 |
| LjL | The influenza "epidemic," as officials noted in the document, was not only present in Wuhan in December, but was greatest in the neighboring cities of Yichang and Xianning. | 23:41 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +110 deaths (now 4815) since 11 hours ago | 23:51 |
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