libera/##covid-19/ Thursday, 2020-12-17

DocScrutinizer05it's somewhat depressing that during times we're facing a pandemic by a life threatening virus, literally our worst enemy are the IDIOTS00:01
DocScrutinizer05in a ten years maybe, one bored weekend, I will do a statistics "what if" we had had no idiots anywhere during this pandemic00:03
DocScrutinizer05meh, prolly moot point, we wouldn't have had a pandemic00:04
tombradyontap[m]<DocScrutinizer05 "meh, prolly moot point, we would"> china would have released it anyway despite thinking we're all "IDIOTS"00:07
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Labeling confusion led to wasted doses of Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine in first days of rollout: With the Covid-19 vaccine supply limited, hospital pharmacists found themselves throwing away one in every six doses of the first Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines distributed this week in the U.S. → https://is.gd/5JLQL500:14
LjLnice00:14
tombradyontap[m]<Brainstorm "New from StatNews: Labeling conf"> good work...five sixths left to go!00:15
DocScrutinizer05tombradyontap[m]: nobody said "we're _all_ idiots"00:15
DocScrutinizer05the ones quieting down the medical doctor in china who warned early about the virus sure were though00:16
DocScrutinizer05if this had crucial impact on the further development is another question00:18
tombradyontap[m]<DocScrutinizer05 "the ones quieting down the medic"> you mean this scientist?00:20
tombradyontap[m]<DocScrutinizer05 "the ones quieting down the medic"> or maybe this scientist? 00:22
DocScrutinizer05LjL: incredible, no?00:23
LjLtombradyontap[m], FYI the URLs you posted are not visible at all on IRC00:23
LjLbut no, he probably didn't mean those scientists00:24
tombradyontap[m]<LjL "tombradyontap, FYI the URLs you "> thats ok, if anyone is interested in doing actual research on the clearweb, they can start with those00:24
LjLnot if they cannot see them, no00:25
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: (news): 'We want them infected,' Trump HHS appointee said in email pushing to expose infants, kids and teens to Covid to reach 'herd immunity' → https://is.gd/SDmD5B00:26
tombradyontap[m]excert: "According to documents acquired by the state-funded Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC), Xiangguo Qiu sent 15 different strains of Ebola and Henipah viruses to Wuhan, China at the end of March 2019. Bound ultimately for the city’s now-infamous Institute of Virology, the package was shipped from Canada’s National Microbiology Lab in Winnipeg, Manitoba to Beijing, China, via Toronto. The dangerous c00:27
tombradyontap[m]was carried overseas to the communist dictatorship on a commercial Air Canada flight."00:27
LjLtombradyontap[m], anyway, may i know what exactly some individual stealing cancer cells from a university and trying to take them to China would have to do with this virus?00:27
LjL"Researchers of Chinese descent make up nearly half of the work force in American research laboratories, in part because American-born scientists are drawn to the private sector and less interested in academic careers, Dr. McKinney said." ← not unlikely that if someone is going to commit a crime, they're going to be Chinese, if 50% of them are00:28
DocScrutinizer05LjL: ROTFL  >>..and changes in air pressure at different altitudes could also affect the volume of vaccine in a vial.<<00:28
LjLDocScrutinizer05, like... they... that... sounds like something someone should have thought about -.-00:29
ubLIX[m]maybe volume but not the mass00:29
DocScrutinizer05LjL: I wonder how air pressure could change the volume of a liquid significantly00:30
tombradyontap[m]any crime committed in close proximity to another one, has a high probability of being connected. ex: 2 bank robberies are committed with 15 minutes within a 2 mile radius. are they connected?00:30
metreowhat crime happened?00:31
LjLalright, for the sake of clarity, tombradyontap[m] posted these two URLs on the Matrix side: https://u.osu.edu/mclc/2020/01/02/scientist-accused-of-smuggling-lab-sample/  https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/chinese-scientist-expelled-from-canadian-bio-lab-shipped-lethal-viruses-to-wuhan00:31
LjLthey weren't seen on IRC because the bridge is dumb00:31
LjLor maybe because it's smart, in this case, i'm not sure00:31
tombradyontap[m]<DocScrutinizer05 "LjL: I wonder how air pressure c"> this room is dense AF00:31
metreochinese stealing is hardly news lol00:32
LjLtombradyontap[m], you don't have to stay00:32
LjLmetreo, alright that's *also* something that doesn't have to be said00:32
LjLgo be racist somewhere else both of you00:32
metreoWSJ yesterday reported Chinese students have to commit to spying in order to eb funded to study internationally00:33
DocScrutinizer05tombradyontap[m]: indeed, I shouldn't ignore the amount of softdrink spilling out the bottle from expanding volume of the drink, as soon as I pop open the lid making the CO2 pressure escape00:33
tombradyontap[m]<metreo "chinese stealing is hardly news "> 500mb csv file just dropped 2 days ago. Almost 2 million CCP loyalists working worldwide in private companies, organizations, non profits and governments00:34
metreoyeah that was interesting00:34
metreohardly surprising of course00:34
metreoat least I wasn't 00:34
tombradyontap[m]correlation isn't causation, but when opsec is concerned - thats exactly where you start00:35
metreoyeah that's not racism00:36
metreoI'm not racist at all 00:36
tombradyontap[m]race has nothing to do with covid00:37
metreoChina would say I am for being critical, that has been part of the strategy00:37
LjLmetreo, being critical is okay, but "chinese stealing is hardly news lol" as a blanket statement sounds quite racist00:37
metreoask China, they will say it's racist to rightly attribute blame to them 00:37
metreoLjl, lol you've never heard of Chinese ripping off western products00:37
LjLsure i have00:38
metreothey specialize in doing it 00:38
LjLi've also heard of italians scamming tourists00:38
metreosaying that is not racist00:38
LjLtrying telling "italians stealing is hardly news lol" to my face00:38
LjLi will... take your wallet00:38
metreoI've never heard that before00:38
metreoIndia has a reputation for that though00:38
LjLmaybe you have selective hearing00:38
metreowell rather that than being racist of course00:39
BrainstormNew from NPR: Vice President Pence To Get COVID-19 Vaccine Publicly On Friday: The vice president is scheduled to get the vaccine in an event that will be publicly broadcast, as public officials seek to calm public fears surrounding a vaccine. → https://is.gd/3AmVp800:39
ubLIX[m]it's surprising that it's a cause for surprise that 2 million people out of a population of more than a billion can be found behaving as though they have some emotional or material attachment to the country of their birth00:39
tombradyontap[m]what is racism though? serious question, did the goal post move again?00:39
metreoyes 00:40
LjLi'm going to make an executive decision00:40
LjLfor at least the next hour this channel is going to talk exclusively about the science around this virus00:40
LjLno politics, no discussion of what counts as racism00:40
tombradyontap[m]got it LjL probably a good idea00:40
tombradyontap[m]lets get back to the science surrounding its origin. id like to know the exact place this originated? anyone know?00:41
LjLno00:42
metreoit was first detected in Wuhan China00:42
LjLi'm quite confident no one in this channel knows the exact origin00:42
DocScrutinizer05tombradyontap[m]: >>It is hard to "put the squeeze" on water<< https://www.usgs.gov/special-topic/water-science-school/science/water-compressibility. Please have mercy and don't make me look up compressibility of lipids00:44
metreowater doesn't compress00:44
metreoor it hardly does, like a very small amount00:44
DocScrutinizer05basically correct00:44
DocScrutinizer05I don't really appreciate getting called out as "dense" for stating exactly this00:45
metreolike technically water compresses a minuscule amount afiak00:46
tombradyontap[m]nytimes[dot]com/2020/12/06/world/asia/china-covid-origin-falsehoods.html00:46
tombradyontap[m]<DocScrutinizer05 "I don't really appreciate gettin"> sealed vials dont lose any amount of liquid just because they are on an airplane. 00:47
LjLtombradyontap[m], to clarify, that counts against my temporary ban on non-science. misusing science for mediatic purpose is not, itself, science, or discussion thereof.00:48
tombradyontap[m]“If Xi is able to escape blame for the coronavirus, that reduces one major source of discontent with his rule,” she said00:49
DocScrutinizer05tombradyontap[m]: so that's linked how exactly to anything that was topic or made you call me desne?00:49
tombradyontap[m]all clear indications point to China. made in the lab. not from bat soup00:49
metreowow... really? that's huge00:50
tombradyontap[m]<DocScrutinizer05 "tombradyontap: so that's linked "> you're right i shouldnt have called this thread dense. i didnt me it towards you my apologies00:50
BrainstormUpdates for Panama: +2960 cases (now 199947), +28 deaths (now 3439) since 22 hours ago00:50
LjL-MatrixI think I was clear enough00:51
BrainstormNew from CNBC Health: (news): 'We want them infected,' Trump HHS appointee said in email pushing to expose infants, kids and teens to Covid to reach 'herd immunity' → https://is.gd/SDmD5B00:52
LjL-MatrixI asked to steer away from politics, and then I clarified that link counted. You chose to go ahead and quote obviously political stuff. You are muted now.00:52
LjLalso i'm going to remove CNBC, this is just ridiculous00:53
LjLit's my programming fault, partly, but partly it's CNBC's RSS feed sucking -.-00:53
metreoyeah CNBC is part of the "fake news" problem republicans are crying about00:55
LjLoh lord00:55
LjLthat's not the reason i'm removing it, or why would i be complaining about the RSS feed00:55
metreoo i c00:55
LjLand the "no politics" temporary rule STILL stands in the meanwhile00:56
LjLreally what's so difficult in "no politics for the next hour" (actually my ban was more comprehensive but let's say it's that)00:56
LjLmaybe this room is dense but the density is sure created by multiple elements in it00:56
metreosrry Ljl, <300:56
DocScrutinizer05on the BNT vaccine, some (to me at least) widely unpublished detail is: it must not get impact of any form after being diluted, or the emulsion of lipids will break down. Means you need to handle the stuff with extreme care after preparation for use01:06
LjLerr, i hope the classic little taps on the syringe don't count as impact01:07
DocScrutinizer05no idea01:07
LjLDocScrutinizer05, there's also the fact that before dilution that stuff is kept deep frozen01:33
DocScrutinizer05indeed01:34
DocScrutinizer05might jelp :-)01:34
DocScrutinizer05help*01:34
BrainstormUpdates for France: +18447 cases (now 2.4 million) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +82 deaths (now 10250) since 22 hours ago01:36
DocScrutinizer05this mRNA in lipid "vector" vaccine, while basically being ... sorry, "trivial", has quite a number of interesting sophisticated details01:37
LjLi hope the AstraZeneca vaccine is eventually found effective (for real)01:38
DocScrutinizer05:nod:01:38
LjLmany countries just can't handle the complexity of mRNA transport01:38
LjL(... including the US apparently)01:38
DocScrutinizer05hehe indeed01:38
LjLbut even in India, which has actually produced 100 million doses of the AZ vaccines (!), the regulatory agency was like "nah, we won't give emergency authorization without prior clarification of what the hell is going on with these dosing regimens"01:39
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +5985 cases (now 482309), +130 deaths (now 13791) since 23 hours ago02:22
BrainstormNew from NPR: Twitter To Remove Or Place Warning Labels On COVID Vaccine Conspiracy Tweets: The social media giant says it will not allow tweets containing "unsubstantiated rumors, disputed claims" or promotion of "out of context information" about the vaccine. → https://is.gd/Xfei3J02:44
LjLhmmmmm03:08
LjLi'm not sure that'll be constructive03:08
LjLcensorship of "rumors" or "out of context information" seems a bit heavy-handed for a platform where lots of modern politics takes place on03:09
LjLi can censor that stuff here, but it's not like this is the place where a US election may end up being decided03:09
LjLif you try to silence "rumors" you will generally just reinforce the idea that the rumor must be true, because there is an effort to kill it03:10
LjLand, would it be "disputed" for me to say that heavily allergic people should not get the vaccine?03:10
LjLwould it be fair to stop me from saying that, considering entire countries are agreeing with me, while others seemingly aren't?03:10
de-facto[m].title https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/report/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-december-2020/03:20
Brainstormde-facto[m]: From www.kff.org: KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor: December 2020 | KFF03:20
DocScrutinizer05Streisand effect03:22
DocScrutinizer05de-facto[m]: corona.rki.de is 'dead', eh?03:22
DocScrutinizer05LjL: 100% ack03:23
DocScrutinizer05force in a warning with a link to proper unbiased info dealing with all misinformation and fake news found03:24
DocScrutinizer05like they already do with Trump's tweets03:25
DocScrutinizer05well, sort of03:25
DocScrutinizer05censoring is just helping those CT fools03:25
de-facto[m]quote interesting stats https://www.kff.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/9598-Figure-4.png03:29
de-facto[m]DocScrutinizer05:  as every night updating03:31
DocScrutinizer05de-facto[m]: really? I usually seen "the data is not up-to-date yet" OWTTE, but no "doesn't work right now, sorry"03:33
ryoumawhat is this about heavily allergic?  which vaccine?  what kind of heavily allergic are you talkinga bout?  ige reactions?  mcas?  4-6 times the normal dosess of antihistamines?  t cell reacionts?  poison ivy type?  food?  dust?  mold?  03:34
ryoumalast i heard was merely something vague about anaphylactoid reactions to pfizer vaccine by 2 brits who carried around epi pens.  (the vagueness does not help me as a very heavily allergic person by various in-principle definitions make a judgement about anything.)03:34
ryoumact?03:35
ryoumacomputed tomography?  connecticut?03:35
LjLryouma, yes, it's about Pfizer. i don't have any more detailed info about the type of allergy, but the thing is, "heavy" allergies were an *exclusion criterion* in the trial03:36
ryoumaare they going to force those who were excoluded from the trial to take the vaccine the trial studied?03:37
LjLi lack a crystal ball03:37
LjLso far no one is forced to take any COVID-19 vaccine03:37
ryoumai did not udnerstand your comment03:37
ryouma"the thing is"03:37
ryoumawhy did you bold exclusion criterion03:38
LjLryouma, what i meant is that it seems absurd on its face to give it to such allergic people, because when you exclude a group from a trial, normally, it's pretty much *automatic* that you won't give that group the drug the trial was studying, not without further study03:38
LjLbut, apparently, while it was in the exclusion criteria in the trial protocol, it wasn't mentioned in the study03:39
LjLso both in the UK and in the US, they went on to give it to allergic people anyway03:39
LjLand they got anaphylactic reactions03:39
ryoumaok i miss3ed scrollback.  yes that is true.  i am also concerned that they did not study, where possible and ethical, certain populations more likely than normal to be vulnerable./03:39
LjLso the UK stopped doing it03:39
LjLwhile as i understand it, in the US there is "debate"03:39
ryoumanamely various diseases that are related03:39
LjLryouma, it could be argued that it wouldn't be ethical to test it on them, since they are particularly vulnerable, before being reasonably sure it's safe on less vulnerable people03:40
LjLbut yes, there is a tension between those two points, for sure03:40
LjLthe vaccine is particularly important for people at risk, but it's riskier to study it on those people03:40
ryoumawtf?: there was an exclusion criterion that was not mentioned in a study?  that sounds like fraud.03:40
LjLryouma, it was mentioned in the study protocol, which is public03:40
ryoumaok03:40
de-facto[m]Probably a good idea to read about exclusion criteria in the trial design03:40
LjLryouma, i'll give you what someone linked here yesterday. it was a very histrionic take by a doctor on a dubious website, but i think it had some valid points03:41
ryoumawe hav been trhough this before.  there wail be many in such populations who will do the vaccine anyway.  if they are going to do it anyway they need to bes studied.  urgently.03:41
LjLde-facto[m], yes, it would have been a good idea to read it for the people administering the vaccine, too!03:41
de-facto[m]Indeed they should have been briefed about such things in advance03:42
LjLryouma, https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/12/an-internal-medicine-doctor-and-his-peers-read-the-pfizer-vaccine-study-and-see-red-flags.html03:42
ryoumai am not even sure that anybody except the disease populations are even THINKING about the next step for studying them.  they are just not being though about. period.03:42
LjLubLIX[m], lol, i didn't realize that you had linked to this first to begin with. i thought the p1something person was the original linker03:42
ryoumait does not help to hand somebody a form and say sign here to disclaim us.  populations need to be part of the planning for trials.03:43
LjLryouma, i think we should distinguish between "vulnerable" people as in the ones over 70 or so, which are *many*, compared to those with rare conditions, which are few. the former, you need to vaccinate, or you won't reach herd immunity. but if you don't vaccinate the latter, they are hopefully protected by herd immunity if almost everyone else gets vaccinated (which seems... not entirely likely, but that's the idea)03:43
LjLthe whole concept of "herd immunity" was always about that03:44
LjLthose who can't take the vaccine for some medical reasons are protected by it03:44
LjLthen it was kind of turned around over during this pandemic to mean that "hey we can just wait until we all get COVID"03:44
ryoumapolitics is never that subtle.  real life is never htat subtle.  and science is what needs to know the answer.03:45
ryoumareal life is never that straightforward*03:45
LjLryouma, realistically, if you ask me (i'm not a doctor, but if you for some inane reason were to ask me), i would say that it's probably very unsafe for you to take a COVID-19 vaccine, and it would still remain unreasonably unsafe even if it was studied on "your" population (which is... what, exactly? the rarer the set of conditions, the more evanescent it becomes)03:47
ryoumawhat bias does this fearless website have?  soi disant.03:47
LjLryouma, i honestly don't know. i read the article at face value.03:47
LjLhe claims to be a doctor who's a bit fed up with big pharma03:47
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add KFF vaccine hesitancy monitor → https://is.gd/C7jlBy03:47
ryoumagetting lumped in with "vaccine hesitants" is a real risk03:47
LjLhey i am hesitant about this vaccine03:48
LjLit was tested quickly, there are huge economical interests at stake since it was produced *before* it was tested03:48
LjLi certainly don't feel it's going to be über-safe in principle03:48
LjLi also don't feel getting COVID-19 is very safe in principle, though, so i'll weigh this against that03:48
LjLi feel i should be allowed to say on Twitter that i am "hesitant about the vaccine", incidentally.03:49
LjLbecause i am, because most people would reasonably be03:49
ryoumamy brain cannot handle responsibly reading that article but a skim of it suggests that on the surface many very valid points are being made and it is congruent with what i know about journals and etc.03:52
ryoumaas for "the rarer the set of conditions" that's the whole point of using large n.  and it is not clear the rarity of the diseases i am talking about.  by some very reasonable defintions as spectrum diseases, they are enormous.  and they might be related to one another even.  this is knowldge that will help them and normal folk.03:56
ryoumamuch bigger than hiv/aids for example in the west03:56
ryoumadepending on what youa re counting03:57
LjLryouma, it's the paradox of rare diseases. each of them is rare, but it's not rare to have a rare disease. them being on a spectrum sometimes helps with categorizing but sometimes it is really quite tentative. so if you get a large n and among those, a subset get a serious side effect, how do we know if they have the "same" condition as you that would likely result in the "same" adverse reaction?03:57
ryoumayou don't have to for it to be useful knowldge.03:58
ryoumayou can take more measuremenst, you can increase posterior probabilities, you can do more studies later, you can monitor03:59
ryoumatentative, yes that is the word i was loking for.  but good reasons to go with the assumptions for purposes of deciding what and who to study and what and who to make proclamationsa bout regardling risks.03:59
ryoumapopulationsa re not even being talked about and i STRONGLY suspect not even being thought about03:59
de-facto[m]Hopefully at some point the vaccines adverse reactions are known well enough that predictive tests could be mode for risk groups to side effects, e.g. prick tests come into mind etc04:00
LjLryouma, if you were asked to take part in a study on a COVID-19 vaccine, and you were told that with your conditions, it's reasonable to presume you'd have HIGH risk of SERIOUS adverse reactions, do you think you would sign up for the trial?04:00
ryoumaif and only if monitoring is committed to seriously.  it usuall is NOT.04:00
de-facto[m]*could be made04:00
ryoumathis is the third time you have made that point. ---  19:41 <ryouma> we hav been trhough this before.  there wail be many in such populations who will do the vaccine anyway.  if they are going to do it anyway they need to bes studied. urgently.04:01
ryoumamonitored for example.  or a priori studies done.  even in vitro can be useful in some cases.04:01
LjLokay, i will stop making points04:02
LjLi thought i was making differently-faceted points, but if it's always the same one boring point, i'll go back to playing 0AD04:02
ryoumathird time you made the same point, and did not ack my responses each time04:02
de-facto[m]I was thinking about psrticipating in the CureVac trials, but its in another city and i dont want to travel for that04:02
ryoumaif i have mistaken 3 separate points for a single point, please feel free to correct my mistake04:03
ryoumai played a few games of 0ad.  that was enough for me.04:04
ryouma(too much rsi to play anyway)04:05
ryoumathese populations have to make decisions about existential risks all the time concerning treatment, becaxuse they are not ever even considered in monitoring and trials for the treatments.  in this case we have a priori reasons they could be at risk.  they /will/ be given the vaccine in large numbers.  they could be monitored.04:07
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: Dr. Fauci says U.S. could return to normal by mid-fall if most people get Covid vaccine (10241 votes) | https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/dr-fauci-says-us-could-return-to-normal-by-mid-fall-if-most-people-get-covid-vaccine.html | https://redd.it/kej58g04:08
ryoumawithout sufficient science*04:08
ryoumait is time for them to get science done, and at least safety reporting04:08
ryoumasomebody needs to say "we can return to normal if you start acting like adults for once"04:09
BrainstormNew from Virology.ws: TWiV 693: Vax to the future: On this episode, FDA EUA for Pfizer mRNA vaccine, efficacy of AstraZeneca ChAdOx1 COVID-19 vaccine, and an orally administered drug that blocks SARS-CoV-2 transmission in ferrets. Hosts: Vincent Racaniello, Dickson Despommier, Alan Dove, Rich Condit, and Brianne Barker Click arrow to [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Irrujj04:12
de-factohttps://pfe-pfizercom-d8-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf04:15
de-facto"A PHASE 1/2/3, PLACEBO-CONTROLLED, RANDOMIZED, OBSERVER-BLIND, DOSE-FINDING STUDY TO EVALUATE THE SAFETY, TOLERABILITY, IMMUNOGENICITY, AND EFFICACY OF SARS-COV-2 RNA VACCINE CANDIDATES AGAINST COVID-19 IN HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS"04:16
de-facto5. STUDY POPULATION page 40ff04:16
de-facto"5.2. Exclusion Criteria" page 41-43 04:18
ryoumaa single study for 1/2/3?04:19
ryoumawhat are the exclusions04:19
de-factomany 04:20
de-factoamoung others04:20
de-facto"3. History of severe adverse reaction associated with a vaccine and/or severe allergic reaction (eg, anaphylaxis) to any component of the study intervention(s)."04:20
ryoumaat least one of these diseases is widely known among knowledgable physicians to result disproportionately from specific vaccinations (hep b and one other, perhaps typhoid).  that is WHY this stuff should be studied/monitored.04:21
de-facto"5. Previous clinical (based on COVID-19 symptoms/signs alone, if a SARS-CoV-2 NAAT result was not available) or microbiological (based on COVID-19 symptoms/signs and a positive SARS-CoV-2 NAAT result) diagnosis of COVID-19."04:21
de-factoquite interesting afaik another unknown then?04:22
ryoumaLIFELONG serious diseases04:22
de-factoi meant what if someone is infected with covid and receives the vaccine? 04:22
ryoumaright04:23
de-factoprobably not a problem id guess, still do we know?04:23
ryoumayou can't assume anything04:23
ryoumathat wis what science is for04:23
de-factothe antigen is around everythere then anyhow04:23
de-factoyeah04:23
ryoumaare they putting them in quarantine before the study?04:23
de-factoi dont think so, they want them to get infected from a statistical point of view04:24
de-factoi dont know though, maybe they want to have a "clean start" from isolation?04:25
ryoumai think this is a weird sentence --- 20:21 <de-facto> "5. Previous clinical (based on COVID-19 symptoms/signs alone, if a SARS-CoV-2 NAAT result was not available) or microbiological (based on COVID-19 symptoms/signs and a positive SARS-CoV-2 NAAT result) diagnosis of COVID-19."04:25
ryoumasymptoms IS clinical04:26
ryoumaoh never mind04:26
ryoumajust confusing04:26
de-facto Previous clinical  or microbiological  diagnosis of COVID-19.04:26
de-factoso either by symptoms or by tests04:27
ryoumayeah except for not putting aymptomatic in04:27
de-facto"8. Immunocompromised individuals with known or suspected immunodeficiency, as determined by history and/or laboratory/physical examination."04:28
de-facto"11. Women who are pregnant or breastfeeding."04:28
ryoumabut not women of childbearing age?04:29
de-facto"13. Individuals who receive treatment with immunosuppressive therapy, including cytotoxic agents or systemic corticosteroids, eg, for cancer or an autoimmune disease, or planned receipt throughout the study. If systemic corticosteroids have been administered short term (<14 days) for treatment of an acute illness, participants should not be enrolled into the study until corticosteroid therapy has been discontinued for at least 28 days 04:30
de-factobefore study intervention administration. Inhaled/nebulized (except for participants in Phase 1 – see exclusion criterion 14), intra-articular, intrabursal, or topical (skin or eyes) corticosteroids are permitted."04:30
de-facto"14. Phase 1 only: Regular receipt of inhaled/nebulized corticosteroids"04:30
de-facto"15. Receipt of blood/plasma products or immunoglobulin, from 60 days before study intervention administration or planned receipt throughout the study."04:30
de-facto"18. Phase 1 only: Positive serological test for SARS-CoV-2 IgM and/or IgG antibodies at the screening visit."04:31
ryoumathere is your statistical thing i guess04:32
ryoumaphase 1 only04:32
ryouma'04:32
de-facto"21. Phase 1 only: SARS-CoV-2 NAAT-positive nasal swab within 24 hours before receipt of study intervention."04:32
de-factoyeah some are phase 1 only exclusions04:32
de-factoand i skipped over many, so for details read the original04:32
de-facto"20. Phase 1 only: Positive test for HIV, hepatitis B surface antigen (HBsAg), hepatitis B core antibodies (HBc Abs), or hepatitis C virus antibodies (HCV Abs) at the screening visit."04:33
de-factoidk about your condition hence you should read the original document yourself04:33
BrainstormUpdates for Belgium: +3636 cases (now 615058), +100 deaths (now 18278) since 23 hours ago04:36
de-factoryouma, wget -qO "/tmp/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf" "https://pfe-pfizercom-d8-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf" && evince "/tmp/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf" then press Ctrl + I to invert colors04:39
ryoumai can't do pdfs at this time04:40
ryoumaor read much more or type much more04:40
ryoumai don't need to read it04:41
LjLryouma, a point about "researchers are shy to put groups at risk into studies because they are more at risk" is different from a point about "those at-risk groups may not themselves want to participate in studies that are dangerous for them"04:46
LjLi don't remember what the third time i made either of those points was, excuse my memory04:46
ryoumai don't think either point addresses or refutes the things i said04:48
ryoumarebuts* or refutes04:48
ryoumai have to stop typing and thinking04:49
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Health: What is the impact of Covid-19 on children with cystic fibrosis? → https://is.gd/H2BK4i04:50
LjLryouma, maybe they don't, but they're also not the same point04:51
LjLif you're going to accuse me of repeatedly making the same point at least substantiate it04:51
LjLand things you say may be correct without necessarily invalidating what i say, because things are rarely black or white, and my debating style does not usually entail saying "yes, that sounds reasonable" to everything that sounds reasonable04:51
LjLyes, of course people should be monitored04:52
LjLyes, of course information is still information04:52
LjLif it's information gained from people you kill by means of your experiments, though, it's widely regarded as unethical if you could foresee it04:52
LjLregardless of whether you believe those people would eventually have received the same drug anyway at some later point in time04:52
ryoumayou missed my point if hta tis wha tyou think i meant04:53
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: I just calculated 27228 "new=1" records from csv, is that reasonable?04:59
DocScrutinizer05https://termbin.com/h4kfk05:00
de-factoRKI Germany 2020-12-16: Weekly Incidence 179.8/100k, Infections +27728 (1379238 total), Fatalities +952 (23427 total), COVID@ICU 4745 (incl 2708 on ventilator)05:01
DocScrutinizer05umm, 26,92305:03
DocScrutinizer05aaah the -1 cases05:03
de-factoi think i have given you the SQL i used 05:05
de-factoi lost my scrollback though05:05
de-factosearch for paste.gg05:05
DocScrutinizer05https://termbin.com/5w9c 26,923  like corona.rki.de which is up again05:07
ryoumafwiw at cost to my rsi and i am not going to type further and i think there is in this case such as hting as too much precision and i can't really believe we are at this level of detail: 3 different subtle takes constituting what i consider the same type of point, all seeming as if they are intnded as some kind of rebuttal to the same point, should perhaps be called 3 separate points sure.  i called them the same po05:07
ryoumaint; if this feels wrong to you, you can discount the stuff i say to the degree that i cannot always provide that level of precision when the functional consequences of hte point are the same wrt the point i made.  i was not intending to invalidate anything you were saying, but quite frustrated at apparent attmpts to rebut what i was saying, which did not imo succeed in overturning or weakening it at all.  and i was05:07
ryouma not intgending to saying to throw vulnerable subjects into a specific trial.  if you feel i said such a thing then translate it as certain populations need thinking about and this is not a small issue at all but one that affects the world population.  much more than acknowledged /anywhere/ afaik.05:07
ryoumaover and out05:07
DocScrutinizer05o.O05:09
ryouma(except i dont' reacll what i said so if you quote me contrqdicting myself just translate it into that anyway.)05:09
ryouma(and in case not clear enough viz.  e.g. one of the vaccines could in principle cause a, smaller bvut still large, pandemic of its own and that could go undetected by policymkers.)05:18
tinwhiskersIn principle we could all be wiped out by a huge meteorite hitting the earth tomorrow. Yes, it's possible one of the attenuated virus vaccines could do something like that but really very very unlikely. People are very bad at assessing risk and really that sort of talk just fosters antivax mentality.05:22
tinwhiskersWhat we can say is that there is a far greater risk of harm from not having a vaccine.05:24
ryoumait is a specific technical point about specific populations.  your general comment is orthogonal.05:27
ryoumathis is not asteroied level.05:28
tinwhiskersBut it is fear mongering05:28
tinwhiskerssmh05:29
ryoumadon't provoke me tinwhiskers i said nothing about attenuated viruwes WHATSOEVER05:44
tinwhiskersLol05:55
tinwhiskersNot prepared to hear anything but themselves05:55
tinwhiskersThey did mention a vaccine starting a new pandemic which is anything but specific to their specific population.05:56
tinwhiskersAnd that's the type of rare incident that comes about from attenuated virus vaccines.05:58
tinwhiskersPolio was probably the other example they were looking for05:59
DocScrutinizer05>>[17 Dec 2020 04:20:06] <de-facto> "3. History of severe adverse reaction associated with a vaccine and/or severe allergic reaction (eg, anaphylaxis) to any component of the study intervention(s)."<< sounds pretty much like the standard exclusion criteria in any arbitrary medication's wash paper06:01
DocScrutinizer05tinwhiskers: ack06:03
de-factowell what does that mean?06:07
DocScrutinizer05TV news: >>vaccinations will start 27th of December. Nevertheless it will take a little time until the incidences begin dwindling<< exactly that damn gairy tale BS I bitched against yesterday. The vaccination will take exactly zilch effect on incidences any sooner than end of february, the earliest06:09
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: hm? what does what mean?06:10
de-factoi dont really understand the meaning of your statement06:10
DocScrutinizer05it's a pretty common sense best practive found literally everywhere that a) patients with history of severe allergic episodes are tought to steer clear of unknown risks, and b) any arbitrary medication (incl vaccine) should NOT get administered to those with an allergy to one of the components of the mdeication or a similar substance06:13
DocScrutinizer05that's why on some chocolate bars there's a warning "may contain traces of peanuts". Zhe vaccine has a comprehensive list of ingredients06:14
LjL18<26tinwhiskers18> They did mention a vaccine starting a new pandemic which is anything but specific to their specific population. ← he meant that a vaccine could be harmful to a specific population, i think, even though that's not a "pandemic"06:16
LjLbut don't lol at him please06:16
LjLhe lashed out at me a bit too06:16
DocScrutinizer05nothing wrong with the vaccone really, maybe except in the land of fools drying cats in mircowaves since >>there was no warning about it in the manual<<06:16
LjLhe doesn't seem to be in his normal temperament06:16
de-factoyeah of course hence it makes sense to have it ontop of the exclusion criteria, especially since its a vaccine06:16
tinwhiskersI did the lol at joining for that retort then leaving again without allowing any comment. Very childish.06:16
de-factoknown for its high reactogenicity as well as also for its high immunogenicity06:17
BrainstormNew from This Week In Virology: TWiV 694: Mitigating COVID-19: On this episode, TWiV makes Bloomberg Business News 2020 Jealousy List, crushing of CDC revealed by insiders, seasonal influenza during the COVID-19 pandemic, FDA briefing documents from Moderna, and three-quarters attack rate of SARS-CoV-2 during an unmitigated epidemic in Brazil. → https://is.gd/lSz3eZ06:17
LjLif he's angry and frustrated, well i would be too if i were bedridden with a number of conditions as well as teeth that cannot be fixed safely (and i have a tooth extraction in a day myself) PLUS the covid fears that are amplified for him compared to the general population06:17
LjLit's annoying, he lashed out in ways that i don't think were warranted, but it's anything but funny06:17
tinwhiskersThey made an incorrect statement, which I responded to then they accused me if provoking them.06:18
LjLthat's all fine, i saw what happened06:18
LjLthe way he acted didn't seem warranted06:18
tinwhiskersJoining just for a retort then leaving immediately is well worth a chuckle imo06:18
LjLi'm just saying there's nothing very funny about it06:18
LjLif you say so06:18
LjLi'm not laughing06:18
LjLhe's been a valuable member of this channel for quite a while, as have you and others06:19
tinwhiskersget a grip LjL06:19
LjLwell that wasn't any less childish06:20
DocScrutinizer05seems it's the week everybody is a tad nervous or stressed06:20
LjLi actually defended ryouma *despite* him having lashed out at me a bit just earlier06:20
LjLand i said that the way tinwhiskers acted was warranted, and the way ryouma did was not warranted06:21
LjLall i asked for was not to laugh at people who are probably under stress06:21
DocScrutinizer05they got a soar point there somewhere06:21
LjLthat doesn't seem like very much to ask to me, and i'm not sure what "grip" i ought to get06:21
DocScrutinizer05:nod:06:21
LjLand now with the channel two people emptier for no particular reason, goodnight06:22
DocScrutinizer05have a nice rest06:22
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: I'm ruling out those anaphylactic shocks (AS) were triggered by the mRNA since mRNA is everywhere in each cell of everyone's body and the particular sequence can't trigger direct specific reactions. So I think it would be *very* important to check those who actually suffered AS if they overeact to the lipids (or other auxiliary substances) in the vaccine, or to the spike protein their own cells fabricated from the mRNA06:28
DocScrutinizer05I bet on the former06:28
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Immunity-boosting foods that kept us healthy amid pandemic → https://is.gd/ngUlhn06:30
de-factowell mRNA usually is not outside of the cells if some of those liposomes were destroyed for example06:32
DocScrutinizer05probably quite simple to tell apart, since making the spike protein likely takes quite a bit longer until you suffer AS from it, than AS from immediate confrontation with an allergen liike a specific lipid06:32
de-factobut i also dont think the allergic reaction is against the mRNA itself06:32
de-factotiming would be quite interesting, e.g. if the reaction started right away or needed some "incubation time"06:33
DocScrutinizer05exactly06:33
de-factothen of course, if the reaction started right away it would have to be caused by some of the immunologic surfaces that were directly exposed after the injection06:34
de-factohence then the liposome outer surface would be first suspects i guess06:34
de-factoso why not test those patients with something similar to a pricktest against those antigens?06:34
de-factoe.g. have them exposed to empty liposomes and look at their immune reaction to that06:35
de-factomaybe find another formulation with the same desired functionality minus the provocation of the allergic reaction itself06:35
DocScrutinizer05>>why not test those patients with something similar to a pricktest << no idea really. I sugested it since a few days, and when even a noob like me comes to this conclusion...06:35
DocScrutinizer05>>maybe find another formulation<< or wait for the adenoviris vaccine06:36
de-factothats what i meant with that i would expect better understanding of this after a short while and hopefully they go ahead and manage to develop some tests with actual predictive value in suspected future cases06:36
de-factothis mRNA platform is far superior if it can be developed and improved further06:37
de-factobasically it can program cells to produce anything 06:38
DocScrutinizer05I think there is quite some knowhow and R&D assets in the lipid nanoparticle stuff06:38
de-factoe.g. initially this form of therapy was intended to be used against cancer cells06:38
de-factoso now they got the unique chance to find out the rarest sideeffects and address those with improvements06:39
DocScrutinizer05yep, exactly. This is why it was "available" in such short time06:39
de-factoit would be quite stupid not to use that chance to be able to study even the rarest side effects06:39
de-factoso i am pretty sure they do know that06:40
DocScrutinizer05seems it took them several years until they found this specific "receipe" for the nanoparticle stuff06:40
de-factoand since they are leading on that field they probably will use their chance to improve their technology hence i am quite confident this will be a game changer in the vaccination industry and even for individualized medicine itself06:41
LjLnow i can't sleep06:42
DocScrutinizer05yep. But - if I didn't get you wrong - I don't think they will _consider_ to change the lipid composition just for those who are allergic to this one06:42
de-factojust think about therapies like 1) sequence your genome 2) develop an individual mRNA message that programs your immune reaction to heal your disease 3) produce that individual mRNA 4) give it to the patient for an optimized and very specifically targeted therapy06:42
LjLi love irc drama just before bed06:42
DocScrutinizer05particularly since then you will find other patients highly allergic against that lipid06:44
de-factomaybe future medical docs would have a sequencer in their own lab, then send the sequence to a company super computer via internet, they offer the patient a therapy option for download, your doctor could download it and print out that individual mRNA sequence and inject it06:44
DocScrutinizer05and you had to redo all studies06:44
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: I think you're on same page with BioNTech :-D06:45
de-factoi think this might be their vision of far future and such individualized therapies probably could really improve the "wanted signal" to "unwanted side effects" ratio by very specific targeting, e.g. really only instruct the body to do the right thing with minimal collateral damage06:47
BrainstormNew from NPR: New Zealand Will Give Free Coronavirus Vaccines To Residents, Neighboring Nations: If the vaccines are proven to be safe and effective, the immunization campaign is expected to begin with border officers and other essential workers at the beginning of 2021. → https://is.gd/cD4OHA06:54
BrainstormNew from Science-Based Medicine: COVID-19 vaccine rollout creates new scamming opportunities for crooks: As new COVID-19 vaccines become available to the public, swindlers are adjusting their cons to fit the moment, even going door-to-door to peddle their scams. The post  first appeared on Science-Based Medicine . → https://is.gd/2T0EfC07:07
BrainstormUpdates for Ontario, Canada: +2235 cases (now 150468), +33 deaths (now 4050) since a day ago — Germany: +32744 cases (now 1.4 million) since a day ago07:07
ryouma23:15 <tinwhiskers> (not that you've ever had anything of value to say) 07:15
ryoumathen ignore me -- but don't provoke me into having to type over a failure to read teh scrollback07:16
ryoumayour*07:18
BrainstormUpdates for Parana, Brazil: +20197 cases (now 359892), +198 deaths (now 7117) since a day ago — Espirito Santo, Brazil: +3826 cases (now 220540), +49 deaths (now 4661) since a day ago — Thuringen, Germany: +1277 cases (now 29011), +33 deaths (now 596) since a day ago — Utrecht, Netherlands: +1111 cases (now 54806), +7 deaths (now 766) since a day ago07:22
de-factoRKI COVID-19 Germany 2020-12-17: Weekly Incidence 179.2/100k, Infections +26923 (1406161 total), Fatalities +698 (24128 total), COVID@ICU 4824 (incl 2771) 07:44
de-facto%cases Germany07:44
Brainstormde-facto: In Germany, there have been 1.4 million confirmed cases (1.7% of the population) and 24441 deaths (1.7% of cases) as of an hour ago. 32.0 million tests were performed (4.5% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.7% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 2.3% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Germany for time series data.07:44
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: weird nonsense in TV news MoMa Heute express. Remarkably only 07:00, 30min later in next newsflash it been gone again:07:59
DocScrutinizer05%tr <da Die Kassenärztliche Bundesvereinigung rechnet damit dass durch den aktuellen shutdown die Infektionszahlen nicht signifikant senken auch nicht bei einer Verlängerung die Schließungen seien keine langfristige Strategie sagte KBV Chef Gassen dem redaktionsnetzwerk Deutschland vielmehr müsse man Risikogruppen schützen und Menschenströme entzerren z.b. durch mehr Busse und Bahnen oder längere Ladenöffnungszeiten07:59
BrainstormDocScrutinizer05, Danish to English: Die Kassenärztliche Bundesvereinigung rechnet damit dass durch den currentn shutdown die Infectionszahlen nicht significant senk auch nicht bei einer Verlängerung die Schließung en seien keine long-fristige Strategie sagte KBV Chef Gassen dem redaktionsnetzwerk Deutschland vielmehr müsse man Risk group schützen und Menschenströme [... want %more?]07:59
DocScrutinizer05meh!07:59
DocScrutinizer05%tr <de Die Kassenärztliche Bundesvereinigung rechnet damit dass durch den aktuellen shutdown die Infektionszahlen nicht signifikant senken auch nicht bei einer Verlängerung die Schließungen seien keine langfristige Strategie sagte KBV Chef Gassen dem redaktionsnetzwerk Deutschland vielmehr müsse man Risikogruppen schützen und Menschenströme entzerren z.b. durch mehr Busse und Bahnen oder längere Ladenöffnungszeiten07:59
BrainstormDocScrutinizer05, German to English: The German Medical Association reckons that the current shutdown does not significantly reduce the number of infections, even if the closures are not a long-term strategy, KBV Chief Gassen told the editorial network Germany, it is necessary to protect risk groups and to de-egate flows.b of people, e.g. by more buses and trains or longer shop [... want %more?]07:59
DocScrutinizer05let me try again08:00
DocScrutinizer05%tr <de Die Kassenärztliche Bundesvereinigung rechnet damit dass durch den aktuellen shutdown die Infektionszahlen nicht signifikant sinken, auch nicht bei einer Verlängerung .Die Schließungen seien keine langfristige Strategie, sagte KBV Chef Gassen dem Redaktionsnetzwerk Deutschland .Vielmehr müsse man Risikogruppen schützen und Menschenströme entzerren, z.b. durch mehr Busse und Bahnen oder längere Ladenöffnungszeiten08:02
BrainstormDocScrutinizer05, German to English: The German Medical Association expects that the current shutdown will not significantly reduce the number of infections, even with an extension. The closures are not a long-term strategy, KBV Chef Gassen told the editorial network Deutschland . Instead, it is necessary to protect risk groups and to de-ecipiate flows of people, e.b. by more [... want %more?]08:02
DocScrutinizer05or was that Montgomery?08:04
de-facto%title https://www.endcoronavirus.org/papers/covid-strategies08:16
Brainstormde-facto: From www.endcoronavirus.org: Unsuccessful versus Successful COVID Strategies — EndCoronavirus.org08:16
de-factohttps://www.endcoronavirus.org/s/Versus.pdf08:16
de-facto%title https://arxiv.org/abs/2012.0328408:18
Brainstormde-facto: From arxiv.org: [2012.03284] Strategizing COVID-19 Lockdowns Using Mobility Patterns08:18
de-factoproactive success vs reactive failure08:21
de-factowe need to have an eradication goal, no compromises anymore08:22
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Australian state violated human rights in COVID lockdown – Report → https://is.gd/tlGhR308:23
de-facto%title https://evidence.nihr.ac.uk/themedreview/living-with-covid19/#Many08:29
Brainstormde-facto: From evidence.nihr.ac.uk: NIHR Evidence - Living with Covid19 - Informative and accessible health and care research08:29
de-facto%title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-01177-608:29
Brainstormde-facto: From www.nature.com: Meeting the challenge of long COVID | Nature Medicine08:29
de-facto%title https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/276835108:29
Brainstormde-facto: From jamanetwork.com: Persistent Symptoms in Patients After Acute COVID-19 | Critical Care Medicine | JAMA | JAMA Network08:29
de-factohttps://sci-hub.se/10.1001/jama.2020.1260308:30
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: do you think Gassen been cited incorrectly, or is he simply going nonsensical regarding >>shutdown will not significantly reduce,,,  Instead, it is necessary to...<< ?08:53
DocScrutinizer05I see the >>Instead, it is necessary to<< part could be in reference to >>closures are not a long-term strategy<< - this still leaves the first sentence08:55
de-factoi dont know that, is that a full cite or did they cut of his sentence there?08:55
DocScrutinizer05anyway IF the lockdown will not take effect, we're basically doomed08:56
de-factoobviously proper shutdowns did reduce incidence significantly in other countries and even in Germany too in spring 08:56
de-factoit wont go away easily hence we need to act proactively not always lag behind two months08:56
DocScrutinizer05indeed08:57
de-factono wonder we have a fucking mess of a scenario ongoing now, it was to be expected by anyone with half a brain08:57
de-factothis shutdown wont end until spring, maybe they loosen measures a bit once incidence came down, but basically we dont have anything else in place to contain the spread of the pathogen08:59
de-factoand since more and more people recently seem to have acted stupidly promoting the spread it has to be enforced08:59
de-factothis is the price to pay for tolerating Covidiots to sabotage cohesion09:00
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | December 17, 2020: The WHO pages contain up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. → https://is.gd/Rhp8BW09:01
de-facto%title https://www.pnas.org/content/117/22/1187509:06
Brainstormde-facto: From www.pnas.org: The airborne lifetime of small speech droplets and their potential importance in SARS-CoV-2 transmission | PNAS09:06
de-facto"Speech droplets generated by asymptomatic carriers of severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) are increasingly considered to be a likely mode of disease transmission. Highly sensitive laser light scattering observations have revealed that loud speech can emit thousands of oral fluid droplets per second."09:07
de-facto"In a closed, stagnant air environment, they disappear from the window of view with time constants in the range of 8 to 14 min, which corresponds to droplet nuclei of ca. 4 μm diameter, or 12- to 21-μm droplets prior to dehydration. These observations confirm that there is a substantial probability that normal speaking causes airborne virus transmission in confined environments."09:07
de-facto"This method revealed average droplet emission rates of ca. 1,000 s−1 with peak emission rates as high as 10,000 s−1, with a total integrated volume far higher than in previous reports"09:08
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: US panel to assess Moderna vaccine as Europe vows shots before year end: American experts were set to discuss Thursday if Moderna's COVID-19 vaccine should be authorized, as European nations vowed to get their coronavirus inoculation campaigns rolling before the end of the year. → https://is.gd/3Gh8Sx09:38
DocScrutinizer05thanks09:51
BrainstormNew from NPR: U.S. Surpasses 3,600 Coronavirus Deaths, Breaks Prior Hospitalization Record: Data also show more than 230,000 new coronavirus infections on Wednesday and that 113,090 Americans were hospitalized with the virus — a number that's been on the rise earlier this month. → https://is.gd/ELY6yH09:51
euod[m]looks like australia is losing it too.10:02
euod[m]17 cases reported means many more exist.10:03
de-factohttps://www.evms.edu/media/evms_public/departments/internal_medicine/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf10:07
de-facto%cases AU10:07
Brainstormde-facto: In Western Australia, Australia, there have been 843 confirmed cases (0.0% of the population) and 9 deaths (1.1% of cases) as of 3 hours ago. 23118 tests were performed (3.6% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Western%20Australia for time series data.10:07
de-facto%cases Australia10:09
Brainstormde-facto: In Australia, there have been 28071 confirmed cases (0.1% of the population) and 908 deaths (3.2% of cases) as of 7 hours ago. 10.5 million tests were performed (0.3% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.3% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 3.4% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Australia for time series data.10:09
de-factohttps://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Australia&cumulative=no&miscType=Rate10:09
de-factoso they are always at that low level there it seems10:10
de-factonot eradicated but stable low 10:10
de-factovery good leadership there10:11
de-factothey took it seriously forcing people into lockdown 10:11
DocScrutinizer05very few people per square mile there :-D10:12
generawe have that in Sachsen too10:12
de-factohmm they live in dense cities too there10:13
darsieThere are even fewer people per square kilometer.10:13
de-factobut they have their summer now10:13
generaand they have been doing tele schooling for decades10:14
de-factowith vaccines ready for their winter probably 10:14
de-factohence lucky them10:14
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Vaccination: Will children be able to get COVID-19 vaccines? → https://is.gd/sjAQad10:30
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Virus cases soaring 'exponentially' in South Africa: South Africa, the country worst-hit by the coronavirus on the continent, has registered more than 10,000 daily cases as infections surge at an exponential rate, the health minister said. → https://is.gd/JIG0Go10:43
de-facto[m]%tell LjL https://github.com/emmahodcroft/cluster_scripts/blob/master/README.md https://jbloomlab.github.io/SARS-CoV-2-RBD_DMS/10:48
Brainstormde-facto[m], I'll pass LjL your message when they are around. 10:48
de-facto[m]Btw all of her github is really worth a look10:54
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Tokyo hospitals overwhelmed as virus cases hit new record: Tokyo's hospitals are struggling to provide routine care because of a sharp spike in coronavirus cases, officials warned Thursday as new infections in the Japanese capital hit another record high. → https://is.gd/QG4LQI10:55
de-facto[m]As is her twitter https://mobile.twitter.com/firefoxx6610:59
de-facto[m]Dr Emma Hodcroft11:00
BrainstormNew from NPR: ER Doctor Says He Walks Into A 'War Zone' Every Day: Arizona emergency room physician Cleavon Gilman says health care providers are under "unimaginable" emotional strain. → https://is.gd/uD1stl11:08
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: French President Emmanuel Macron tests positive for Covid-19 → https://is.gd/UKOwbv11:21
LjLtinwhiskers is leaving the channel and informing me he'll remove the bot "and features" within a week11:33
BrainstormLjL: At 2020-12-17 09:48:04 UTC, de-facto[m] told you: https://github.com/emmahodcroft/cluster_scripts/blob/master/README.md https://jbloomlab.github.io/SARS-CoV-2-RBD_DMS/11:33
LjLso if you rely on offloop in any way i'd find an alternative source11:33
LjLmeanwhile i'll try to get a grip, i guess11:33
darsieWill the website go down, too?11:43
BrainstormNew from WHO Euro: WHO analytical tool helps Ukraine monitor how regions respond to COVID-19: A new monitoring tool, developed by WHO and the Public Health Center of Ukraine (UPHC), is revealing how the different regions in Ukraine responded to COVID-19. Launched in October 2020, the Public Health Response Monitor (PHRM) was developed based on a [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/LqHJoa11:46
LjLdarsie, i don't know11:54
darsie.11:54
euod[m]> French President Emmanuel Macron tests positive for COVID-1911:56
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +5058 cases (now 399511), +93 deaths (now 6409) since 23 hours ago12:07
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: New Sydney COVID-19 cluster gives Australians 'wake-up call': Health officials were rushing Thursday to trace the source of a growing cluster of COVID-19 cases in Australia's largest city of Sydney, with thousands of residents urged to stay home. → https://is.gd/YZmqjp12:12
BrainstormUpdates for Latvia: +1040 cases (now 28535), +12 deaths (now 394) since a day ago12:35
BrainstormNew from Scientific American: Health: How to Expand Access to COVID Vaccines without Compromising the Science → https://is.gd/rJvrKr13:02
BrainstormNew from BMJ: The US covid pandemic has a sinister shadow—drug overdoses: As the United States began shuttering non-essential businesses and closing schools to slow the spread of covid-19 in mid-March, Richard Jorgensen braced himself for the possibility of mass deaths. As... → https://is.gd/rTiFVO13:15
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Study highlights neurological impact of COVID-19 on children: A small number of previously healthy children infected with COVID-19 can have severe neurological complications, according to research by University of Manchester scientists. → https://is.gd/wNQ7KD13:41
KREYRENhttps://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=BzBiTYwSP2A13:42
KREYRENCC de-facto, DocScrutinizer05 ^13:42
KREYRENserious adverse effects to vaccine apparently 13:42
BrainstormUpdates for US: +248620 cases (now 17.4 million) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +748 deaths (now 24592) since 23 hours ago13:53
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: A shock to the PPE system: Recharging sterile N95 masks: A researcher from the Institute of Industrial Science at the University of Tokyo has demonstrated a novel method for recharging sterilized N95 masks so that they can be reused. By exposing the masks to 100 kilovolts for three minutes after sterilization in hot water or an [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/d6yHX514:07
BrainstormUpdates for Denmark: +4034 cases (now 123813), +17 deaths (now 992) since a day ago14:07
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +66 deaths (now 6440) since 20 hours ago14:35
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Could existing drugs be used against COVID-19?: Several drugs already approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) could potentially be used to alleviate the symptoms of COVID-19, biomedical researchers at Université de Montréal have found. → https://is.gd/DuMcrz14:46
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: NIST clarifies structure of prospective vaccine for respiratory virus: No approved vaccine exists for RSV, a life-threatening virus that attacks the respiratory system. State-of-the-art neutron and X-ray scattering performed at the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) may bring one closer to reality, as the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/eYz7hT15:00
BrainstormNew from NIH Director's blog: A Close-up of COVID-19 in Lung Cells: If you or a loved one have come down with SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus responsible for COVID-19, you know it often takes hold in the respiratory system. This image offers a striking example of exactly what happens to cells in the human airway when this coronavirus infects them. → https://is.gd/lqE8Ze15:13
BrainstormNew from StatNews: STAT+: Pharmalittle: Hospitals grapple with extra dose of Pfizer vaccine; FDA panel meets to review Moderna vaccine: With the Covid-19 vaccine in short supply, hospital pharmacists found themselves throwing away one in every six doses of the first vaccines distributed this week in the U.S. → https://is.gd/P4mI0R15:26
BrainstormNew from Scientific American: The Data on Coronavirus and Public Holidays: Airline Passengers are seen at Fort Lauderdale Hollywood International Airport on Thanksgiving as travelers are ignoring CDC warnings to avoid holiday travel while COVID-19 cases are surging across the U.S. during the COVID-19 pandemic on November 25, 2020 in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. → https://is.gd/YT0oSF15:39
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Could physical activity help minimize drug and alcohol use?: Figures and surveys have shown that high-risk alcohol consumption increased during lockdown periods, while exercise decreased. → https://is.gd/RxJj1s15:51
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Vaccine maker recounts 'breakfast table' pivot to COVID work: The doctor who led development of the first COVID-19 vaccine authorized in the United States, Britain and elsewhere said her company's decision to shift from cancer research to battling the coronavirus happened over breakfast as the possibility of a pandemic was [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/8iwqU116:04
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: mRNA technology used in COVID-19 vaccines deemed safe, has been studied for decades, expert says: This week the COVID-19 vaccine by Pfizer and BioNtech has started to be injected into health care workers across the country after gaining emergency use approval from the federal government. While the vaccine was developed in a [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/0aWHUN16:17
BrainstormUpdates for West Virginia, US: +1636 cases (now 68485), +32 deaths (now 1071) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +12779 cases (now 652525), +71 deaths (now 10321) since 14 hours ago16:21
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: COVID-19 vaccine and Guillain-Barré syndrome: let’s not leap to associations (81 votes) | https://academic.oup.com/brain/advance-article/doi/10.1093/brain/awaa444/6031904 | https://redd.it/keomfv16:24
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Sweden and Japan are paying the price for COVID-19 exceptionalism: One of the most striking things about the COVID-19 pandemic is just how dramatically different the responses have been from country to country. In early 2020, when little was known about the virus, this difference was unsurprising. Today, with tens of thousands [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/OKwTnt16:31
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Reduced mortality in New Zealand during the COVID-19 pandemic (80 votes) | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32647-7/fulltext | https://redd.it/kewxru16:38
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: How long does it take to make vaccines?: In this post, we focus on how long it takes to develop and manufacture vaccines—particularly those designed to protect against COVID-19. → https://is.gd/7ybjsu16:44
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +4812 cases (now 484062), +78 deaths (now 13822) since 23 hours ago16:53
BrainstormUpdates for Italy: +18233 cases (now 1.9 million), +683 deaths (now 67220) since a day ago — Germany: +720 deaths (now 24698) since 23 hours ago17:07
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Study reports drop in lung cancer screening, rise in malignancy during COVID-19 surge: The current surge in coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) cases poses challenges for providers and institutions in delivering care to infected patients while also placing demands on them to keep up with timely and sometimes critical care for [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/dl0JWC17:10
BrainstormNew from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): A Controlled Phase 2/3 Study of Adjuvanted Recombinant SARS-CoV-2 Trimeric S-protein Vaccine (SCB-2019) for the Prevention of COVID-19 → https://is.gd/MgkvlW17:23
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Review of the Emerging Evidence Demonstrating the Efficacy of Ivermectin in the Prophylaxis and Treatment of COVID-19 (80 votes) | https://osf.io/wx3zn/ | https://redd.it/ke0vcv17:32
BrainstormUpdates for Arizona, US: +5817 cases (now 435036), +147 deaths (now 7677) since a day ago17:35
BrainstormNew from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Evaluation of Prognostic Modification in COVID-19 Patients in Early Intervention Treatment, a Randomized Clinical Trial → https://is.gd/4UPCYl17:37
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: Sir Ian McKellen has received the COVID-19 vaccine in the U.K.: "I feel euphoric" (10200 votes) | https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ian-mckellen-receives-covid-19-vaccine-i-feel-euphoric | https://redd.it/keu1ek17:43
LjLWe had an M4 earthquake in Milan like half an hour ago17:51
BrainstormUpdates for United Kingdom: +35383 cases (now 1.9 million), +532 deaths (now 66052) since 22 hours ago18:07
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Europe first region to pass 500,000 virus deaths: Europe became the first region in the world on Thursday to pass the milestone of 500,000 coronavirus deaths, according to an AFP tally based on official sources shortly before 1500 GMT. → https://is.gd/vPcQ9X18:16
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Outpatient buprenorphine dispensing up during COVID-19: (HealthDay)—In the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, there was an increase in the number of patients receiving an outpatient buprenorphine prescription in Texas, according to a research letter published in the Dec. 15 issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association. → https://is.gd/7xtqEj18:29
Jigsy%cases UK18:38
BrainstormJigsy: In United Kingdom, there have been 1.9 million confirmed cases (2.9% of the population) and 66052 deaths (3.4% of cases) as of 46 minutes ago. 49.2 million tests were performed (4.0% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data.18:38
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Neurotic people feel worse emotionally during the corona crisis: When the corona pandemic began in March, it fundamentally changed many people's everyday lives. A normal working day, vibrant public life, carefree social contacts—all these things now seem like a memory from another age. In order to find out what effects these [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/BZ09I518:41
LjL<25Brainstorm18> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: WHO accused of conspiring with Italy to remove damning Covid report → https://is.gd/wosZPl18:48
LjLthis has been discussed a fair bit on investigative journalism TV programmes here18:48
DocScrutinizer05KREYREN: sorry, that link doesn't work18:56
DocScrutinizer05don't know if it been mentioned: RKI says today's numbers are low by ~3k due to some technical issues18:57
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: ^^^18:58
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Healthcare workers have increased insomnia, risk of severe mental health problems: COVID-19 study: Researchers at the University of Ottawa have found the mental health effects of the COVID-19 pandemic have particularly impacted healthcare professionals and their sleep, putting these frontline workers at risk of severe future [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/ckXSnd19:06
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Suicide mortality up for Blacks during closure period of COVID-19: (HealthDay)—In Maryland, suicide mortality increased among Blacks and decreased among Whites during the progressive closure period of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a research letter published online Dec. 16 in JAMA Psychiatry. → https://is.gd/W58dB619:19
DocScrutinizer05^^^ is very strange19:26
LjLDocScrutinizer05, not the same thing, but there was a report that suicides in Japan have gone *sharply* up lately19:27
DocScrutinizer05"up" expected, but DOWN for whites???19:27
DocScrutinizer05or italian19:28
DocScrutinizer05could shoot myself from boredom if I wasn't too bored to do so19:29
bin_bashdont let us get in your way of it19:29
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: You were exposed to COVID-19. Does everyone in your house have to quarantine?: Your kid's school calls. They've been exposed to COVID-19. You know to keep them home for 14 days. But does the whole family need to quarantine? What happens if you were exposed at work, and you live with other people? Should the entire household [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/U34Bip19:32
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +6207 cases (now 485927), +85 deaths (now 13844) since 22 hours ago19:35
LjLDocScrutinizer05, well my guess is many blacks kept working, sometimes under worse conditions than before (more risk of COVID at least), while i did read that for some office jobs, people are actually happier doing them from home etc19:35
BrainstormNew from Virology.ws: Encouraging clinical data for universal flu vaccine candidate: by Helen Stillwell The results from a phase I clinical trial to test the safety and immunogenicity of a universal flu vaccine candidate reported encouraging results – strong titers of broad and functional antibodies persisted for over a year in healthy adults [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/71wYb819:45
DocScrutinizer05LjL: makes sense. Thanks19:51
BrainstormUpdates for Spain: +23067 cases (now 1.8 million), +181 deaths (now 48777) since a day ago19:53
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: New nature lover? It's a COVID-19 side effect: What does it take to get some people to go outside and experience nature? For some urban dwellers, it took the COVID-19 pandemic, researchers say. → https://is.gd/hQ6F7J20:10
BrainstormNew from NPR: California Activates 'Mass Fatality' Program As State Sets New Virus Records: California Gov. Gavin Newsom said the state has 60 refrigerated units available if needed. He also said that 5,000 body bags were distributed to some of the hardest-hit counties. → https://is.gd/YxYvbq20:36
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +21553 cases (now 1.4 million), +550 deaths (now 24991) since 23 hours ago — Switzerland: +107 deaths (now 6486) since 21 hours ago20:53
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: California sets new daily record of 379 virus deaths: California health authorities reported Thursday a record 379 coronavirus deaths and more than 52,000 new confirmed cases. → https://is.gd/Rnlr9s21:01
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Underage tobacco use falls despite cigarette strength, CDC finds: Here's some good news in an otherwise troublesome year: Kids aren't turning to tobacco as often, even shunning the popular e-cigarettes, and that started even before the U.S. quarantines and lockdowns. → https://is.gd/LsjALY21:14
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Researchers create model to calculate COVID-19 health outcomes: University of California, Irvine health sciences researchers have created a machine-learning model to predict the probability that a COVID-19 patient will need a ventilator or ICU care. The tool is free and available online for any healthcare organization to use. → https://is.gd/fNf72R21:39
BrainstormUpdates for California, US: +74118 cases (now 1.7 million), +323 deaths (now 21938) since 23 hours ago21:53
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Why do we assume pandemics result in devastation?: Researchers at the University of Maryland's National-Socio Environmental Synthesis Center (SESYNC) and the Hebrew University of Jerusalem discovered that late 19th century misconceptions about outbreaks of plague in the ancient world led to an ingrained belief that pandemics [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/cQCRlG22:18
BrainstormUpdates for Syria: +156 cases (now 9759), +17 deaths (now 571) since 23 hours ago22:21
BrainstormNew from CDC (old): Previous Forecasts of Total Deaths: Forecasts show national and state level cumulative reported and predicted deaths since the beginning of the pandemic. → https://is.gd/yJtqEF22:56
BrainstormNew from The Atlantic: A Week of Record Deaths. Again.: This week, American health-care workers started receiving their first doses of a new COVID-19 vaccine. Early data have shown that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is safe and highly effective , reaching 95 percent efficacy about a week after the second of two doses. The second COVID-19 vaccine under [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/zCowhr23:35
BrainstormUpdates for Arkansas, US: +3039 cases (now 194543), +38 deaths (now 3112) since a day ago23:35

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