libera/##covid-19/ Sunday, 2020-12-20

DocScrutinizer05never seen this site before  https://www.deutschland.de/en/news/coronavirus-in-germany-informations :-o00:29
DocScrutinizer05>>Here you find the most important news about the spread of the lung disease in Germany.<<00:29
DocScrutinizer05more generic: https://www.deutschland.de/en/corona-virus-germany-overview00:31
LjLDocScrutinizer05, it makes a difference between N95 respirators and FFP respirators that just doesn't seem accurate to me00:33
DocScrutinizer05quite possible00:33
DocScrutinizer05where in particular?00:34
LjLDocScrutinizer05, https://www.deutschland.de/sites/default/files/inline-images/masks_corona_protection_N95_FFP_infection_protection_1.png00:36
BrainstormUpdates for Uruguay: +607 cases (now 12557), +5 deaths (now 114) since a day ago00:36
LjLalso conflating surgical with "everyday" masks is arguable00:37
DocScrutinizer05complete BS. *sigh*00:37
LjLhttps://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/britain-says-new-coronavirus-variant-up-to-70-more-transmissible  nice dry summary. the WHO hasn't said anything about it yet, has it?00:40
DocScrutinizer05highly disturbing: I can't get this whole site in complete proper german language, WTF?!00:45
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +7353 cases (now 502075), +113 deaths (now 14142) since 23 hours ago00:50
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID-19: Italy orders Christmas lockdown as Sweden changes tack with toughest measures yet → https://is.gd/bLGhBe01:11
BrainstormUpdates for France: +20603 cases (now 2.5 million) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +69 deaths (now 10476) since 21 hours ago01:22
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Europe is paying less than U.S. for many coronavirus vaccines → https://is.gd/YR8YXl01:24
LjL... except for the really good one01:41
BrainstormUpdates for New Zealand: +6 cases (now 2116) since a day ago02:36
LjLoh lord02:38
LjL%title https://bgr.com/2020/12/19/coronavirus-mutation-south-africa-501-v2/02:38
BrainstormLjL: From bgr.com: Another coronavirus mutation was discovered – and this one might be more dangerous – BGR02:38
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Another coronavirus mutation was discovered – and this one might be more dangerous → https://is.gd/BqiVWT02:40
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: COG-UK update on SARS-CoV-2 Spike mutations of special interest (80 votes) | https://www.cogconsortium.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Report-1_COG-UK_19-December-2020_SARS-CoV-2-Mutations.pdf | https://redd.it/kgcffx03:06
DocScrutinizer05LjL: indeed03:09
DocScrutinizer05>>worldnews: Europe is paying less than U.S. for many coronavirus vaccines<< so what?03:25
DocScrutinizer05murricans feel pissed?03:26
LjLDocScrutinizer05, well as i said... they are paying less for the Moderna vaccine, and getting much more of it, and that happens to be probably the best one, so there is that03:26
LjLbut no i don't think the general sentiment of those article is feeling pissed, more that their government has been inefficient and kinda lying03:27
DocScrutinizer05well... >>no thanks, COVAX isn't an option for us<<03:29
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add links about new UK strain → https://is.gd/Ej6R8r03:31
DocScrutinizer05the "dealmaker POTUS2 seems not as competent in making deals as he thinks to be03:32
DocScrutinizer05s/2/"/03:32
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: Anti-vaxxers should forego ventilators, German doctor says (10063 votes) | https://www.dw.com/en/anti-vaxxers-should-forego-ventilators-german-doctor-says/a-55996805 | https://redd.it/kg9lep03:42
pepeelol03:44
gigasu_shidaljl who is paying less for the moderna one and getting more of it ?03:49
LjLthe US03:49
gigasu_shidaoh ok interesting03:49
gigasu_shidais that like a bulk discount sort of deal?03:50
LjLthe EU has only ordered 80 million doses, as opposed to 300 million for several other vaccines (including Pfizer and Oxford)03:50
LjLgigasu_shida, probably sort of?03:50
gigasu_shidado you prefer the moderna vax at this point?03:50
LjLit's probably a good thing that the EU has bought them as one entity instead of each member state doing its own thing03:50
gigasu_shidayeah sure, that way they can't compete against each other 03:51
LjLgigasu_shida, i have preferred it for some time but admittedly i have yet to read the full FDA report / study and compare it with Pfizer03:51
LjLthey're probably very similar03:51
gigasu_shidai guess the molecule that moderna found is more temperature stable(?)03:51
LjLyes that may make it preferable from a practical standpoint, although it's still not "fridge temperatures"03:51
DocScrutinizer05I guess this is sort of "you're a US company and I'm your president to rule you" deal03:52
LjLwhich Oxford is, but also the efficacy may be a fair deal lower03:52
LjLother than the temperature... the concern about Bell's palsy is there with both Pfizer and Moderna, and we don't know much about allergic reactions yet but i think there are some early reports of anaphylaxis on Moderna as well03:53
gigasu_shidabells palsy don't scare me much, one side of my face already drooping haha03:53
LjLif it's true about this South African variant being actually more severe and not just spreading more easily, then honestly i may start putting the possible side effects of these mRNA vaccines on a... side03:53
LjLgigasu_shida, what about if i tell you that you need to keep the covered eye closed and patched because it won't even get irrigated by tears03:54
LjLs/covered/concerned/03:54
gigasu_shidaoh god03:54
LjLand that some cases of Bell's palsy don't completely resolve03:55
gigasu_shidai only read a brief paragraph about Bell's Palsy03:55
LjLit's not a joke, it's a pretty serious condition... i means ure there's worse, but it's not nice03:55
LjLread the WP article03:55
gigasu_shidaok03:56
LjLor don't, i mean, if that'll scare you away from getting the vaccine, it probably shouldn't03:57
LjLbut it's something to monitor and i'm a bit perplexed that the papers brush it off as most likely within the general population incidence. it doesn't seem like it is to me.03:57
gigasu_shidaoh my gosh i hadn't heard about the south african mutant 03:58
LjLit's early to say much03:59
LjLjust keep an eye on it04:00
gigasu_shidayes04:01
LjLde-facto, i've had a look at dental implant, their duration over 10-20 years is not so great :\ but still, i'm pretty sure i'll have to get one, i don't even close my mouth right without this tooth04:09
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Postcards from Wuhan: One year on, residents share lockdown memories, hopes for 2021 → https://is.gd/xhtlG104:14
gigasu_shidaljl it might be a while without a tooth. the dental surgeon might recommend that you let the metal post grow some bone around it for quite a while before they install the fake tooth onto the post04:22
BrainstormUpdates for South Korea: +1095 cases (now 49665), +15 deaths (now 674) since 23 hours ago — France: +17074 cases (now 2.5 million), +200 deaths (now 60429) since 20 hours ago — Netherlands: +12164 cases (now 678888), +61 deaths (now 10489) since 20 hours ago04:22
LjLgigasu_shida, yes, i know. plus i have to wait two-three months without even the metal post, he said i have to let the bone heal04:23
LjLquite a bother. i don't know they they didn't put a crown on my tooth when it was in bad shape, and instead insisted with inlays... it ended up just breaking apart04:23
gigasu_shidahmm your surgeon may not be talented enough04:24
gigasu_shidai didn't hear about that possibility before04:24
gigasu_shidathe part about needing to let the bone heal for a while without the post04:24
gigasu_shidahmm maybe i am misinformed tho04:25
gigasu_shidai only talked to the surgeon when my mom was there04:25
gigasu_shidai think that what your surgeon said could make sense. they might need to put some bone powder in the cavity to regrow bone prior to adding the post04:26
gigasu_shidathat kinda makes sense04:26
gigasu_shida(based on what i've read on the subject)04:26
gigasu_shidai've just heard of some surgeons that insist they can get all this done very quickly 04:27
gigasu_shidait could be mumbo jumbo tho04:27
LjLthere are "immediate load" implants04:28
LjLbut for a single, big, important tooth like this, i suspect they should opt for a delayed load implant04:29
LjLbut i'm not a dentist so really i can only ask them questions about the risks/benefits but in the end i must trust them i guess04:29
LjLon wednesday i'm getting my stiches removed so i can take that opportunity to ask some questions about the implant04:30
gigasu_shidado dentists do this kind of work in your country? hmm usually this is done by dental surgeons here04:31
gigasu_shidanevermind not important04:32
gigasu_shidathere probably isn't such a distinction in each country04:32
LjLno i just say dentist but i do believe it's going to be a surgeon04:32
LjLthe way it used to work in italy was that all dentists had to be medical doctors before specializing in dentistry04:33
LjLso technically they were all surgeons04:33
LjLbut it's not like that anymore, and the younger dentists i've had more recently aren't MDs04:33
LjLso the practice has a separate surgeon04:33
gigasu_shidaoh wow that's a high standard04:34
gigasu_shidabe glad it isn't like that anymore. there would be a dearth of dentists 04:35
LjLyes... i hope this is going to mean more specialization, not lower standards04:35
LjLso far it has seemed that way. the dentist who did the original root canal on this tooth that i have parted with, he was an "old school" one, and he also talked on the phone while operating on my dental roots04:36
LjLi wasn't impressed. at all. and the filling sort of thing he put inside the tooth instead of a proper inlay or crownwas shaky from the start04:36
LjLhe also nearly dropped a piece of metal into my throat. the younger dentists all use dental dams, and bless them for that, no matter what bin_bash says *cough*04:37
gigasu_shidaso the jesus talking on the phone while operating hmm04:38
gigasu_shidadental dams are nice but the ones that use dams often use those plastic widgets to force your jaws to stay open04:39
gigasu_shidathat's what i've heard04:40
gigasu_shidabut they are probably important when doing a root canal 04:40
LjLgigasu_shida, in my experience they just used the dam, a metal frame to keep the dam extended, and those kinda painful metal holders to keep it around the specific tooth involved04:46
LjLthose are not very pleasant, but the whole experience is still more pleasant than having to be careful where you put your tongue and having saliva suctioned all the time04:46
gigasu_shidaahh ok i've never had a root canal04:47
LjLwell try to keep it that way04:47
LjLthey are honestly not very pleasant04:47
gigasu_shidaand i think i've had a dumbed down version of that type of dam for a normal filling04:47
LjLplus, apparently, teeth that had a root canal are nowhere near as sturdy as the ones that still have a nerve (which is not really just a nerve) to keep them getting substanes they need etc04:48
LjLa big molar like the one i had extracted wouldn't have broken in two just like that if it had been a "live" tooth04:48
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Boris Johnson tightens UK lockdown, citing fast-spreading version of virus → https://is.gd/rySiFh04:52
gigasu_shidahmm my pop's tooth broke in two eating a nut like yours did04:53
SkunnyCause of COVID04:53
gigasu_shidais there some concern that an mRNA vax may not activate the correct subset of naive T cells ?04:53
LjLgigasu_shida, i don't know but that sounds like a good question. any vaccine that only produces (or is) the S-protein won't have all the other proteins from the virus... which may be good in case you might get an auto-immune reaction if you start making the full cocktail of antibodies, but may also result in some lack of reactions. but i think if you look at the Pfizer and Moderna studies (i haven't really, but i glanced at them) they cover T cell reactions05:15
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Brazil’s Bolsonaro says rush for coronavirus vaccine not justified → https://is.gd/iVKEln05:17
BrainstormUpdates for Thailand: +576 cases (now 4907) since a day ago05:22
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: South Korea sets record COVID-19 cases as prison reports major outbreak → https://is.gd/pBO6JM05:30
BrainstormUpdates for Belgium: +2721 cases (now 623760), +90 deaths (now 18545) since a day ago05:50
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Leaked documents show how China's army of paid internet trolls helped censor the coronavirus. → https://is.gd/rBiAaS05:55
BrainstormNew from This Week In Virology: TWiV 696: Tear down that SARS-CoV-2 manuscript: TWiV explains that COVID-19 is not harmless for young adults, FAA approval for Pfizer mRNA vaccine, lack of justification for the claim of reverse transcription of SARS-CoV-2 RNA and integration into the human genome, and lack of evidence for increased transmission by new [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/CXlSLK06:07
de-facto[m]%title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v106:21
Brainstormde-facto[m]: From www.biorxiv.org: A prefusion SARS-CoV-2 spike RNA vaccine is highly immunogenic and prevents lung infection in non-human primates | bioRxiv06:21
de-facto[m]gigasu_shida:  read it with attention to TH1 vs TH2 cells responses06:23
gigasu_shidade-facto[m]: i think i need to study the immune system for a while06:32
de-facto[m]%title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.09.20245175v106:33
Brainstormde-facto[m]: From www.medrxiv.org: BNT162b2 induces SARS-CoV-2-neutralising antibodies and T cells in humans | medRxiv06:33
de-facto[m]also TH1 vs TH206:33
gigasu_shidaare TH1s and TH2s part of the naive T cell population?06:37
de-facto[m]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_helper_cell06:40
de-facto[m]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T_helper_cell#Th1/Th2_model06:41
BrainstormUpdates for Ontario, Canada: +2569 cases (now 157749), +29 deaths (now 4141) since a day ago — Germany: +21679 cases (now 1.5 million) since a day ago — Newfoundland and Labrador, Canada: +8 cases (now 380) since a day ago07:07
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: immune system dang intricate07:10
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Concern among Muslims over halal status of COVID-19 vaccine → https://is.gd/nfrid107:10
BrainstormNew preprint: Fast and scalable lipid nanoparticle formulation of niclosamide (nano NCM) effectively inhibits SARS-CoV-2 replication in vitro by Guankui Wang et al, published on 2020-12-19 at https://biorxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2020.12.18.423509 [... want %more?]07:11
de-factoRKI Germany 2020-12-20: Weekly Incidence 192.2, Infections +22771 (1494009 total), Fatalities +409 (26049 total), COVID@ICU +4948 (incl 2615 on ventilator)07:29
DocScrutinizer05niclosamide  hmmmmm07:30
DocScrutinizer05>>Niclosamide (NCM) is an old anthelminthic drug<<  ummm07:33
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Canada's confirmed COVID-19 cases surpass 500,000 → https://is.gd/j3d3rE07:35
DocScrutinizer05>>with pleiotropic pharmacological activities<<  errr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiotropy07:36
DocScrutinizer05"geek" way to name off label use?07:36
de-facto%title https://www.uniontherapeutics.com/covid-1907:37
Brainstormde-facto: From www.uniontherapeutics.com: UNION Therapeutics - Covid-1907:37
de-facto%title https://aac.asm.org/content/64/7/e00819-2007:39
Brainstormde-facto: From aac.asm.org: Identification of Antiviral Drug Candidates against SARS-CoV-2 from FDA-Approved Drugs | Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy07:39
de-facto%title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.24.310490v207:40
Brainstormde-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: Broad-Spectrum, Patient-Adaptable Inhaled Niclosamide-Lysozyme Particles are Efficacious Against Coronaviruses in Lethal Murine Infection Models | bioRxiv07:40
de-facto%title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.18.423509v107:40
Brainstormde-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: Fast and scalable lipid nanoparticle formulation of niclosamide (nano NCM) effectively inhibits SARS-CoV-2 replication in vitro | bioRxiv07:40
de-facto%title https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(20)30291-7/fulltext07:41
Brainstormde-facto: From www.thelancet.com: Spatial and temporal dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 in COVID-19 patients: A systematic review and meta-analysis - EBioMedicine07:41
DocScrutinizer05interesting07:50
DocScrutinizer05btw I fixed some glitches in comments of my chart at http://reisenweber.net/et_al/covid/covid19_statistics.htm07:52
BrainstormUpdates for Moscow Oblast, Russia: +1514 cases (now 136644), +33 deaths (now 2678) since 23 hours ago — Overijssel, Netherlands: +1398 cases (now 43219), +1 deaths (now 593) since 23 hours ago — Drenthe, Netherlands: +328 cases (now 10615), +1 deaths (now 121) since 23 hours ago — Samara, Russia: +305 cases (now 27723), +5 deaths (now 534) since 23 hours ago07:53
DocScrutinizer05any news about Carrageen ?08:09
DocScrutinizer05%paper Carrageen08:09
BrainstormDocScrutinizer05: An error occurred while searching.08:09
DocScrutinizer05%papers Carrageen08:09
BrainstormDocScrutinizer05: An error occurred while searching.08:09
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Life-style: In quarantine, Barack Obama welcomed Malia’s British boyfriend; called him ‘a good kid’ → https://is.gd/SyOugg08:13
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: Anthony Fauci Vaccinated Santa Claus, He Said On CNN (10171 votes) | https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/clarissajanlim/anthony-fauci-santa-covid-vaccine | https://redd.it/kgh1zp08:14
DocScrutinizer05https://www.biorxiv.org/search/Iota%252Bcarrageenan08:16
DocScrutinizer05wow Brainstorm how did this news make it beyond your regex filters? :-D08:17
DocScrutinizer05aah I see "quarantine"08:18
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | December 20, 2020: The WHO pages contain up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. → https://is.gd/2k88c109:03
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: US Congress poised to vote on COVID aid package after Fed compromise → https://is.gd/Ljvkhn09:15
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronavirusUK: UK response vs South Korean response - personal experience of someone truly shocked by what I have seen → https://is.gd/EFlKvh10:06
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: India: Men have 30% higher risk of dying from COVID-19 than women: Study → https://is.gd/H09RnX10:31
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Face masks for preventing respiratory infections in the community: A systematic review (80 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.16.20248316v1 | https://redd.it/kggqvi12:19
BrainstormUpdates for Gibraltar: +33 cases (now 1244) since a day ago12:21
DocScrutinizer05>>The reported effect of masks used outside the home on transmission of droplet-mediated respiratory infections in the population is minimal or non-existent<<12:50
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Is Leah Remini right about Tom Cruise? She Says Tom Cruise’s ‘Psychotic Rant’ About COVID Was a Publicity Stunt. What do you guys think? → https://is.gd/SqcNwM13:13
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Preliminary genomic characterisation of an emergent SARS-CoV-2 lineage in the UK defined by a novel set of spike mutations (80 votes) | https://virological.org/t/preliminary-genomic-characterisation-of-an-emergent-sars-cov-2-lineage-in-the-uk-defined-by-a-novel-set-of-spike-mutations/563 | https://redd.it/kgcc3j13:17
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +36 deaths (now 6618) since 22 hours ago13:21
de-facto"outside the home" is so imprecise that almost any statement following that inherits that property: outside the home in the forest? maybe in the desert? what about on windy oceans? they should have stated "outside of densely crowded environment and outdoors" then their statement would make sense: 0*x = 0 because there is no pathogen to filter by masks there13:32
de-factoi mean if they really are serious: medical workers usually dont work at home, hence do they imply that they are not protected by wearing FFP3/3 masks during their work on COVID stations?13:33
DocScrutinizer05yep13:36
DocScrutinizer05poor paper13:37
de-factoits on preprint13:38
DocScrutinizer05if they had said "outdoors"...13:39
de-factostill people could spit at each others outdoors too13:39
de-factolike when shouting in demonstrations for example13:40
DocScrutinizer05in this case I'm hesitant to give them benefit of doubt13:40
de-factoor just standing together and drinking hot mulled wine and talking to each others on Christmas markets etc13:41
de-factoimho in such scenarios even outdoors it would make sense to wear masks13:41
DocScrutinizer05I had baught it when they said that ballistic droplets are two magnitudes lower risk than aerosol13:41
de-factojust as the RKI states, "everywhere where distancing is not possible (hence indoors AND outdoors) or where aerosol could accumulate (hence indoors)"13:42
DocScrutinizer05but this stuff smells biased13:42
de-factoyeah indeed13:42
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Calgary doctor says ‘dramatic’ 40% drop in preterm births during lockdown is global trend → https://is.gd/A3VT2H13:51
BrainstormUpdates for US: +189347 cases (now 18.1 million) since 23 hours ago13:53
euod[m] well the UK is fucked.14:09
euod[m]they announced stage 5 restrictions for London, so of course everybody got up and left for somewhere without restrictions.14:09
euod[m]shocking, unbelievable, unthinkable that would happen. 14:09
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: 'Worst moment of whole epidemic': Britain says new virus strain up to 70 per cent more transmissible → https://is.gd/UGQVFK14:31
euod[m]also 14:39
euod[m]they still haven't closed their schools.14:39
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Italy joins other EU states in suspending all travel from UK due to new Covid strain → https://is.gd/gRn6qv14:56
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Statement on the U.S. authorization of the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine (80 votes) | https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/news/2020/12/statement-on-the-us-authorization-of-the-moderna-covid-19-vaccine.html | https://redd.it/kgqbzz15:18
DocScrutinizer05euod[m]:   :-S15:32
euod[m]I unfortunately had to meet someone in person yesterday at a distance and of course they "forgot" their mask.15:34
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +266 deaths (now 26430) since a day ago15:35
euod[m]I'm standing there with a 3M 95 mask like what the fuck is wrong with you. 15:35
euod[m]it's been a year, that's not an excuse.15:37
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Life-style: But for the pandemic, the royal family would have celebrated Christmas this way → https://is.gd/66NrrH15:46
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Hackers leak documents revealing China's coronavirus censorship → https://is.gd/pzANwj16:37
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +6149 cases (now 503910), +109 deaths (now 14179) since 22 hours ago17:07
BrainstormUpdates for United Kingdom: +35928 cases (now 2.0 million), +326 deaths (now 67401) since a day ago — Italy: +15102 cases (now 2.0 million), +352 deaths (now 68799) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +13032 cases (now 689705) since 23 hours ago17:21
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Countries across Europe halt flights from Britain over concerns about coronavirus mutation → https://is.gd/UQeJLB17:28
de-factoso everyone leaving London means the new more transmissible mutant is seeded everywhere in UK now?17:29
Ollie[m]With the added amplification of public transport, probably17:30
LjLde-facto: are they leaving London, though? Aiui it was placed on tier 4 which means no movement, but not sure if advance notice was given17:31
de-factoi dont have any idea, just read what euod[m] said17:31
Ollie[m]We've cancelled our plans and are staying in London, but do feel like a minority17:31
Ollie[m]Were due to leave on Tuesday to go to Wales, now staying put17:32
Ollie[m]Can't say if this is normal or exceptional though yet17:32
de-factohopefully people think before they consider traveling17:32
euod[m]de-facto: I'm just going by talking to my friends in the UK, who told me that their immediate response was to pack bags and go to wherever they could that wasn't in maximum lockdown. all the trains are fully booked instantly of course. 17:33
de-factoi also will stay at home this holiday season, no family visits this year17:33
de-factodamn :/17:33
de-factothats quite the exact opposite of the intention behind restricting contagion by lockdown17:33
Ollie[m]I think you're more likely to hear about rule flouting than rule following17:34
euod[m]the prevailing thought seems to be "the government lied about not canceling christmas", but come the fuck on. it's not like they can predict the outcome of a pandemic.17:34
euod[m]but I bought all the food for christmas dinner I can't let it go to waste!17:34
Ollie[m]Honestly doubt this'll really do shit now. We should have extended lock down through December to make Christmas as guilt free as possible17:35
BrainstormUpdates for Arizona, US: +5366 cases (now 453597), +34 deaths (now 7971) since 22 hours ago17:35
euod[m]I don't understand why people keep taking personal issue with this, as if the enemy is their government and not you know, the pandemic itself.17:35
de-factothat is THE point, people have to understand that this only can be controlled by working together against contagion, including government and protesters we need solidarity and cohesion17:36
Ollie[m]Hard to get that from incoherent messaging and MPs themselves showing the rules don't apply. Done a good job of eroding trust17:38
de-factoyeah but that does not matter, that matters to contagion is that people do it better than bad examples17:38
de-factoalso people should not be tempted to search for leaks in the rules to evade them but rather extrapolate the meaning and intention to fix such leaks17:39
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID-19: Ireland set to impose travel restrictions on flights and ferries from UK → https://is.gd/SdQhHO17:53
euod[m]"leaks" is an interesting way of defining it.17:59
euod[m]people in my area keep coming up with things that they can announce are "technically legal", but miss the spirit of restrictions entirely. 18:00
euod[m]yes you are literally 2 meters apart, but that's not the spirit of it.18:02
IndoAnonde-facto: you're mistaking "solidarity" for common sense™18:07
IndoAnonShould people be healthy because solidarity? no. 18:08
IndoAnonPeople should try not to contract this virus because being infected sucks; for yourself, your family, your local clinic/hospital, your government. I don't blame people who kept doing something that's directly on the opposite of their interest because they're fucked in the head(e.g retards)... 18:12
IndoAnonAlthough it's hard to proof, cases where people knowingly spread transmissible disease/virus should be treated as a crime, as it endanger public health 18:15
IndoAnonAre euro too poor to afford car or motorcycle? I kept hearing "train is full" 18:17
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: England faces lengthy lockdown as new virus strain 'out of control': Britain's health minister warned Sunday that a strict lockdown imposed on London and southeast England may last for months because a new strain of the coronavirus was "out of control". → https://is.gd/rDonbx18:18
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Britain says new virus strain 'out of control': British Health Secretary Matt Hancock said Sunday that the government has imposed a strict Christmas lockdown in London and southeast England because a new strain of the coronavirus was "out of control". → https://is.gd/pv0AWQ18:31
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: German factory races to churn out COVID-19 syringes: The battle against COVID-19 has delivered not just a vaccine at record speed but also a spike in demand for the billions of syringes needed to administer it. → https://is.gd/piirr618:43
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: NERVTAG meeting on SARS-CoV-2 variant under investigation VUI-202012/01 (80 votes) | https://khub.net/documents/135939561/338928724/SARS-CoV-2+variant+under+investigation%2C+meeting+minutes.pdf/962e866b-161f-2fd5-1030-32b6ab467896?t=1608470511452 | https://redd.it/kgvng718:55
BrainstormNew from Gazzetta Ufficiale italiana: MINISTERO DELLA SALUTE - ORDINANZA 20 dicembre 2020: Ulteriori misure  urgenti  in  materia  di  contenimento  e  gestionedell'emergenza epidemiologica da COVID-19. (20A07122) → https://is.gd/bt6M1i18:56
CoronaBot04/r/coronavirus: 'This is deadly serious' - New coronavirus variant 'out of control', health secretary warns (10377 votes) | https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-in-tier-4-everybody-needs-to-behave-as-if-they-already-have-coronavirus-matt-hancock-says-12168124 | https://redd.it/kgstau19:07
DocScrutinizer05from german TV ZDF: BioNTech tested BNT162b2 effective against 19 mutation strains19:09
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Singapore gets shot in the arm from global drug demand: Scientists in protective clothing work in a high-tech laboratory at a pharmaceutical plant in Singapore, whose coronavirus-hit economy has received a shot in the arm from robust global drug demand. → https://is.gd/5ZrFSH19:21
LjLhttps://np.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/kgstau/this_is_deadly_serious_new_coronavirus_variant/ggi3lx1/?context=3    anyone want to provide "backup"?19:25
de-factoIndoAnon, indeed19:25
de-factoDocScrutinizer05, interesting, do you have sources for details?19:26
de-factoLjL, even if new strains are not more deadly/severe for individual cases if they are "only" more transmissible they will cause more deaths because they spread faster19:28
de-factoe.g. reach more people in the same amount of time19:29
LjLde-facto, it's not really about the new strain, he's saying that i don't have "backup" for the fact that cytokine storms and other immune reactions are causing many of the severe cases and deaths despite treatment. i'm basically saying, sure, we have dexamethasone but it's not a miracle. but he believes these drugs will save most of the "young and healthy" (as if older people didn't matter, as usual, but well, that was the original framing in the previous 19:30
LjLpost so i can't argue that)19:30
LjLi mean sure, i did not provide "backup". i'd have to sift through countless preprints to find a few that, when put together, will show that many deaths are due to immune reactions19:31
LjLhe isn't providing any backup for the contrary claim either, but hey, of course it's only up to me19:31
LjL(aside from personal anecdoted)19:31
de-factoi think there are plenty of papers about DEX lowering mortality but not like a "miracle" but only like 20% or such?19:32
de-factoso if it can prevent 1 in 5 deaths its good but not like a gamechanger 19:32
de-factojust link him to the original DEX study results or such19:32
LjLhe didn't mention dex, i mentioned it. he'd just say "well there are other drugs" :\19:33
LjLit doesn't matter, it was just in case someone had, like, just read a paper titled "Mortality and severity of disease in relation with immune system reactions and cytokine storms" or something19:34
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: sorry, only Heute ZDF, wasn't able to find any internet news about it by cursory googling19:35
de-factoLjL, https://www.recoverytrial.net/results/dexamethasone-results19:37
DocScrutinizer05>><de-facto> e.g. reach more people in the same amount of time<< aka R_eff 1.0 -> R_eff 1.4 without any further changes19:38
de-factoyeah looking at your graph there, plateau then back to growth with the avg line19:38
de-factoso probably we have it circulating too already here in Germany19:39
LjLde-facto, https://np.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/kgstau/this_is_deadly_serious_new_coronavirus_variant/ggi5pr7/   i found another topical paper in the meanwhile, but i included your link too19:41
DocScrutinizer05de-facto: I doubt our current rising curve is caused by a new strain. I think it's just the fine line berween "the local shutdowns may nail it to R_eff=1" and the tiny bit more from autumn turning into winter now, that makes those measures _just_ not sufficient19:43
de-factowhat do you mean by tiny bit more from autum ?19:44
de-factoits not like that more cold in the latest times compared to directly before or such19:44
DocScrutinizer05from autumn->winter aka "it's getting cold outside"19:44
LjLstill if this mutation was around in the UK since september, as it appears from what i've read, there's been ample opportunity for it to have started spreading in other countries. how sequencing-happy is Germany=19:44
de-factonot so much19:45
de-factoi wish they would do more sequencing here in Germany19:45
DocScrutinizer05we'll know in a few days. I bet the sequencers are steaming19:45
de-factoidk why they dont do that19:45
generawe shall have our own strain, no?19:45
de-factoa similar faster spreading variant also is circulating in SouthAfrica https://sacoronavirus.co.za/2020/12/18/new-covid-19-variant-identified-in-sa/19:46
de-facto%title19:46
Brainstormde-facto: From sacoronavirus.co.za: New COVID-19 variant identified in SA - SA Corona Virus Online Portal19:46
LjLde-facto, last night i read a claim that this one was also more dangerous19:46
DocScrutinizer05s/also/just/19:47
de-facto%title https://twitter.com/firefoxx66/status/134035998939586150619:47
Brainstormde-facto: From twitter.com: error parsing title ('NoneType' object has no attribute 'string')19:47
de-factomeh19:47
de-facto@firefoxx66 (Dr Emma Hodcroft): Is the new UK variant the same as the new South African variant (501Y.V2)? No. They both share the same mutation in spike: N501Y (N->Y at position 501). However, the 2 variants have arisen separately. 1/N https://t.co/m4sx1YN7dO https://t.co/N1Zmyso4mh19:47
de-factohttps://nextstrain.org/groups/neherlab/ncov/S.N50119:47
de-factoLjL, yeah they differ in many more mutations than only that N501Y19:48
de-factoboth seem to spread faster19:49
LjLthis is what i read https://bgr.com/2020/12/19/coronavirus-mutation-south-africa-501-v2/19:49
de-factothe text from SA reads more alarming though i dont like that19:49
de-facto" D614G left China and infected most of the world, returning to Asia a few months later." <-- whut?19:50
de-facto"Since then, other strains have been discovered, including a couple of new coronavirus versions that are spreading rapidly in the UK and South Africa." <-- whut??19:51
de-facto"Now, it appears as though the latter might be more dangerous of the two." <-- ok so they directly compare UK with SA mutants 19:52
de-factohttps://github.com/emmahodcroft/cluster_scripts#sn50119:53
LjLi've put a caveat in that post19:55
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add (slightly sensationalistic) news about South African variant → https://is.gd/6RD9PK19:56
de-factoaccording to Emma Hodcroft one of the differences between the S:N501Y variants is that SA is without 69/70 deletion19:59
de-factoLjL, i think https://sacoronavirus.co.za/2020/12/18/new-covid-19-variant-identified-in-sa/ is the more official link for this20:00
DocScrutinizer05one confirmed brit-corona in netherlands20:04
de-factohmm maylinked from http://www.health.gov.za/20:05
LjLde-facto, well that's the first i linked20:05
LjLi linked the other too saying that it's just a media analysis20:05
de-factoLjL, oh sorry I must be blind20:05
de-factoi did drink too much coffee :P20:06
de-facto%title https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/threat-assessment-brief-rapid-increase-sars-cov-2-variant-united-kingdom20:07
Brainstormde-facto: From www.ecdc.europa.eu: Threat Assessment Brief: Rapid increase of a SARS-CoV-2 variant with multiple spike protein mutations observed in the United Kingdom20:07
LjLjust now i heard on public TV that a passenger coming from the UK to Italy has been found positive and sequenced and he has the mutation20:07
de-facto%title https://virological.org/t/preliminary-genomic-characterisation-of-an-emergent-sars-cov-2-lineage-in-the-uk-defined-by-a-novel-set-of-spike-mutations/56320:10
Brainstormde-facto: From virological.org: Preliminary genomic characterisation of an emergent SARS-CoV-2 lineage in the UK defined by a novel set of spike mutations - nCoV-2019 Genomic Epidemiology - Virological20:10
de-factoyeah i dont think it can be contained, it does not even work with the normal strains20:10
de-factoand people are stupid....20:10
de-facto....and travel, allow airplanes to fly etc20:11
DocScrutinizer05do you have any info about false positive tests due to vaccination? Has this been evaluated?20:12
de-factoso yeah, even one year after the fact when we know how efficient SARS-CoV-2 spreads via traveling it seems we have not learned anything from it and still have the same stupid behavior20:12
de-factoi dont think the virus could possibly spread over the oceans without travelers20:12
de-factoDocScrutinizer05, antigen?20:13
DocScrutinizer05all20:13
DocScrutinizer05which tests will get rendered useless by vaccination?20:13
de-factohow could a RT-PCR with N-protein primer get positive from vaccination?20:14
DocScrutinizer05exactly my question20:14
de-factoi doubt it would20:14
de-factoif its an RT-PCR with S-protein primer it might though20:14
DocScrutinizer05I would like to read a study about it20:14
LjLantibody tests will be rendered useless if either 1) they look only at the S-protein 2) the vaccine involved is not an S-protein vaccine but a whole-virus vaccine (inactivated or attenuated)20:14
de-factooh good point20:15
de-factothe inactivated vaccines of course20:15
LjLfor now i believe none of those vaccines are "in the wild", but they will be20:15
de-factobut yeah injecting them in a muscle, i doubt that many of those would reach into a nose swab or such20:17
LjLi don't know about PCR in the nose... but antibody tests are done in the blood20:17
de-factoyeah antibody tests would show the success20:18
de-factobut antigen or pcr tests in the nose or lung?20:18
LjLstill, a point may be made that before vaccinating someone, you'd want to run an antibody test on them to know if they had COVID before. since long COVID exists, i think it would be a problem if we no longer can distinguish between people who had COVID and people who were simply vaccinated against it20:19
de-factodepending on the vaccine, e.g. BioNTech aiming for estimating asymptomatic infections by testing for N-protein antibodies20:20
de-factoProbably not possible for SinoVac/SinoPharm inactivated pathogen since it could raise those too id suspect20:21
DocScrutinizer05I just started wondering when I heard Israel is going the ***** way once more and handing out greed ID for vaccinated people, to allow only those on certain events etc. Trying hard to not enter political domain here, anyway the dialog >>you're positive!<< >>nah, I'm vaccinated, just forgot my green card<< popped up in my mind20:21
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add "Mutations of interest" GitHub by Emma Hodcroft → https://is.gd/WEC2fI20:22
whytekgreed ID, nice slip.. .:)20:22
de-factoi really would like to know how injecting a vaccine into the arm could make a RT-PCR swab on the nose go positive20:22
de-factoi doubt that this would happen even for the inactivated vaccines20:22
de-factobut maybe i am wrong20:22
de-factoDocScrutinizer05, where do you take that assumption from that vaccination would trigger false positive tests?20:23
DocScrutinizer05didn't know I assumed anything. I asked if anybody has seen papers on ot20:23
de-factoah20:23
de-factoDocScrutinizer05, for example they tested in the OX/AZ phase III study in the UK branch COV002 each week with RT-PCR for asymptomatic infections20:25
de-factoand have found less in the vaccinated arm20:25
LjLthat's a good point20:25
de-factobut that one also only targets S-protein20:25
LjLbut i suspec their PCR was also on the S-protein20:25
DocScrutinizer05((phase III study)) excellent point20:25
LjLi don't *know*, though20:25
LjLi think the only possible issue (if at all) would be taking a PCR a very short amount of time after giving the vaccine, or perhaps a very exact amount of time, if there happens to be a point where it may reach the nose and throat somehow20:26
LjLi don't think it will be a practical concern. antibody tests could be.20:26
DocScrutinizer05ack20:27
de-factobtw this seems to be quite an interesting forum there https://virological.org/c/novel-2019-coronavirus/20:33
de-facto%title20:33
Brainstormde-facto: From virological.org: SARS-CoV-2 coronavirus - Virological20:33
de-factothey also link cool new tools like 20:35
de-facto%title https://covidcg.org/20:35
Brainstormde-facto: From covidcg.org: COVID CG20:35
de-facto%title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.23.310565v220:35
Brainstormde-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: COVID-19 CG: Tracking SARS-CoV-2 mutations by locations and dates of interest | bioRxiv20:35
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +6045 cases (now 506287), +87 deaths (now 14215) since 23 hours ago20:38
de-facto%wa population canada20:40
Brainstormde-facto, Wolfram|Alpha (Canada | population): Result: 37.4 million people (world rank: 39th) (2019 estimate) → https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+canada20:40
de-factoso here is the map of sequencing coverage per capita https://covidcg.org/?tab=global_sequencing20:45
de-factoUK does 100x more sequencing than Germany per capita20:45
de-factohence they do find such things like the new mutant20:45
de-factoSA does 1/20 of sequencing compared to UK20:46
de-factowe need more sequencing in Europe20:47
LjLde-facto, that sure doesn't make Italy or Germany look good20:49
LjLhow come the UK is such a huge outlier in Europe?20:49
LjLother countries that sequence very much are countries with very few cases too20:49
de-factoAustralia does even 10x of UK20:50
de-factothats three orders of magnitude more than Germany or such20:50
de-factoidk why they dont sequence more, imho its important for understanding the pandemic in detail, this (hopefully) is a once in a century chance to study such things in that level of detail20:51
de-factoand for sure they do have the technology to do so20:53
LjLde-facto, but Australia and New Zealand and Vietnam and other countries like that have few cases20:54
de-factoi have seen sequencers standing around in many labs here20:54
LjLso the few they have... they can sequence20:54
LjLbut the UK has a ton of cases, and still sequences much much more then the EU20:54
de-factoyeah20:54
LjLde-facto, do you approve of the new section? https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/blob/master/README.md#genetics21:03
de-factooh very nice one21:05
de-factoi guess if you want to be fair unfortunately there would have to be quite some more mutation sections to counterbalance D614G21:06
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add COVIDCG → https://is.gd/Y4RjE021:06
de-factolike time will tell how prevalent those 501 variants will become21:06
de-factoi like the start from E. HodCroft about listing mutations of interest with associated properties, but id like to have such a collection for even more of the mutants21:07
de-factoe.g. that the 69/70 deletion seems to be correlated with antibody evasion etc21:08
de-factosomething like a wiki of SARS-CoV-2 mutations or such21:09
LjLmeanwhile i found: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VUI_%E2%80%93_202012/0121:10
LjLheh https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.10.087643v321:12
de-factomaybe scraping an rss feed from this for covid news?21:18
de-factohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Current_events21:18
LjLde-facto, i've tried before, it's tricky. also a good place to get a sneak peak of potentially important news is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:In_the_news/Candidates of course there's lots of cruft (and stuff unrelated to COVID, obviously) but it usually takes a while before important news end up in the actual news section, while here you can often find events very soon after they happen21:20
BrainstormNew from Wikipedia on VUI-202012/01: Peterloo Massacre: Corrected information ← Previous revision Revision as of 20:21, 20 December 2020 Line 26: Line 26: After the end of the [[Napoleonic Wars]] in 1815 there was an acute economic slump, accompanied by chronic [[unemployment]] and harvest failure, and exacerbated by the [[Corn Laws]], which kept the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/wm4wQC21:22
de-factowhy is airplane travel even allowed at all still?21:42
de-factoi dont get it 21:42
de-factois it again some stupid reasoning like "we cant let them go bankrupt"?21:42
de-factowe have seen what comes out of that in the summer with tourism in EU21:43
de-factohow about making passenger travel via airplane completely illegal during pandemic times21:44
de-factoi hear that transport costs for logistics tripled or even more, so why not make them transform all of their planes into logistic transport planes21:45
de-factoimho traveling should not be allowed at all, globally21:45
de-factoi dont see any reason to allow this that would even remotely counterbalance the astronomical costs we are having right now21:46
de-factoand they did not even implement proper quarantine21:47
de-factoall they require is some single negative test, that is beyond ridiculous because it can not replace quarantine at all21:47
BrainstormNew from Wikipedia on VUI-202012/01: Dani Osvaldo: The wording suggested he is a sole-nationality Italian who just happened to be born in Argentina, then lived in Italy. No siree. ← Previous revision Revision as of 20:35, 20 December 2020 Line 36: Line 36: }} }} − '''Pablo Daniel Osvaldo''' (born 12 January 1986), commonly known as '''''' [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/cxxGT821:47
LjLi saw this video as a bit of a criticism of myself (how dare he) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVPy25wQ07k21:51
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Adults over 75, frontline essential workers should be in second Covid-19 vaccine priority group, says CDC advisory panel: An expert panel that advises the CDC recommended Sunday that adults aged 75 and older, as well as frontline essential workers, be designated as the second Covid-19 vaccine priority group. → https://is.gd/G2rvaw22:00
BrainstormNew from Emma Hodcroft: @firefoxx66: Honoured to have been 'tweet quoted' as part of this very informative article about the new UK variant - what we know and why scientists are concerned.#SARSCoV2 #COVID19 → https://is.gd/aHCGcm22:13
benakautzer[m]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aov3qGYv7ls 22:19
benakautzer[m] * Corona Impfung Langzeitfolgen22:19
benakautzer[m]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aov3qGYv7ls 22:19
BrainstormNew from Wikipedia on VUI-202012/01: Alexandra Daddario: Career: remove unnecessary additional image (that is not related to the section in which it appears; copyedit ← Previous revision Revision as of 21:13, 20 December 2020 Line 22: Line 22: ==Early life== ==Early life== − [[File: Eva Rinaldi Photography (1) (34571221352).jpg|thumb|left|Daddario [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/w82ZfW22:25
DocScrutinizer05>>making passenger travel via airplane completely illegal<< will get rejected by all big 500 companies, reporters, politicians themselves, younameit. For weird reasons some people think they _must_ travel overseas etc, and they have the power/lobby to make anybody honestly suggesting such ban boggle and cringe22:33
DocScrutinizer05lufthansa already converted as many airplanes as possible into freight planes. There are real life limitations to that22:35
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +20 deaths (now 6622) since 23 hours ago22:38
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add GISAID → https://is.gd/SzoOFz22:38
DocScrutinizer05when you had a single flight in your life with cabin luggage and see them stashing parcels into seats of a 747, you both see they do what they can and you get an idea where this "what they can" ends22:39
de-factowhy seats? they should remove them and make them cargo planes22:52
de-factoif they go bankrupt its only because they failed to adapt, just like selection for the survival of the fittest22:53
DocScrutinizer05waaaah, vaccination with a 0.6x45 needle22:54
DocScrutinizer05>>they should remove them and make them cargo planes<< they did where possible, as I said above22:54
DocScrutinizer05then they went on and used passenger jets for freigt. When it was _not_ that simple to convert them to freight planes22:55
gigasu_shidashouldn't we still allow flights for medical travel?22:56
gigasu_shidafor a lot of ppl there are bigger concerns than covid22:56
DocScrutinizer05you can't just throw a 60m^3 unsorted parcels on a heap in the passenger zone with seats removed, through a 90cm wide door22:57
DocScrutinizer05or even 3 or 4 of them22:57
de-factowhat medical tourism?22:58
gigasu_shidai think we should instead focus on cutting government employee salaries and redirecting that money toward small businesses during a pandemic emergency22:58
de-factowould it not be more beneficial for the local area to use the necessity for medical treatment to build up such capabilities locally?22:59
gigasu_shidade-facto that's a difficult conversation in the US haha22:59
gigasu_shidaeasier to have that conversation in europe 23:00
gigasu_shidaanyways i didn't wanna get you riled up23:00
gigasu_shidagonna go eat some ramen 23:00
de-factoafaik for such things like medical care one should not rely on few single points of failure but rather have widespread redundancy also in supply chains23:01
de-factosorry im a bit in a grumpy mood today, nothing to do with people in here23:01
DocScrutinizer05((freight planes)) there are a few smart people in airline management too who also said >>we should convert a lot of passenger planes into freight!<< then they went even a tad smarter still and *asked* >>how many planes were already converted, could we convert more and what does it take to do so?<<23:02
DocScrutinizer05thne, surprisingly, they _did_23:04
LjLde-facto, a lot of things you say could be true ideally, but it's the real world23:14
LjLpeople who are dying of serious disease that don't have widespread treatment facilities cannot wait until those are built23:14
LjLand they are certainly not being built *now*, no matter how much you wish it23:14
LjLand indeed it's not like airlines like leaving their airplanes unused. that's *very* bad for their economy, so if they are not doing certain things that would make them money, it's most likely because they are trickier than they seem23:15
LjLwhenever they can, airlines only have to gain by keeping their aircraft and pilots "up to date", as long as it's not a huge economic burden23:16
BrainstormNew from NPR: Older People, Some Essential Workers To Get Vaccines Next, CDC Panel Says: A federal advisory committee voted to put adults 75 and over and frontline essential workers next in line for COVID-19 vaccines. → https://is.gd/3b642d23:16
LjLas to banning all travel, the considerations that are true for air travels are mostly also true for shorter-haul types of travel: trains make less money when they can't be fully packed, and people in trains can spread disease (just look at all the fleeing London now), but where do we stop? how much travel is too much travel? for a fair amount of the past few months, i wasn't even allowed to "travel" on foot outside of my home unless it was a "necessity". 23:18
LjLbut then we extend that to necessary *jobs*. can we do without them? what are the ones we can do without? what happens to those people if they won't work? it's really not all black and white23:18
LjLand meanwhile, <Brainstorm> New from Brexit @ The Guardian: France's Covid freight ban to have 'devastating effect' on UK, sector warns: Cargo from the UK to France to be suspended for 48 hours from 11pm GMT on Sunday due to emergence of fast-spreading virus → https://is.gd/KCPiFQ23:19
de-factoi just get angry when i see we still have so much air traveling going on that the new mutant already spread to Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark23:19
de-factowe have the highest incidence ever in EU and still traveling is allowed, obviously with not enough safety measures in place to prevent viral spread23:19
LjLthe mutant is out of the bag. *well* out of the bag. if it was around in September, and the UK sequences so much more, then the mutant is almost certainly already everywhere23:19
LjLdirect your anger at the fact it was not identified... i mean, it *was* identified, but at the fact it was not all done much quicker23:20
de-factowhy does it seem that its unthinkable to require mandatory quarantine of 14 days for any airplane traveling if it absolutely is unavoidable?23:20
LjLbecause the cases when it's unavoidable also tend to be "emergency" cases when a delay of 14 days for the people on the plane to do whatever they need to do would make what they need to do pointless?23:21
LjLboo, covidvax.news appears to be dead :(23:21
de-factowell if they cant afford 14 days quarantine for what they want to do then its not important enough to travel for23:22
LjLthat makes no sense23:23
LjLjust imagine the standard example case23:23
LjLit's a skilled doctor travelling to save a patient with a rare disease that other doctors aren't qualified to treat23:23
LjLoh now he has to wait 14 days, but no problem!23:24
LjLthe patient will wait23:24
LjLthere are obviously less clear-cut cases23:24
LjLbut the point is, there are cases23:24
de-factowell if its so important than everyone has to quarantine 14 days with him inclusive that patient23:24
de-factoif they want to risk that, its their decision, but it should not place the risk onto the population of the destination there23:25
LjLokay then let's also stop all freight, because that means people going back and forth anyway, and cargo could be contaminated23:25
LjLso no more agricultural exports please23:25
LjLevery country for itself23:25
LjLheck, every town for itself!23:25
LjLif you can't grow what you need in your town then starve23:26
de-factowell cargo travel could me made safe more easily than human travel23:26
whytekde-facto, and LjL - you're kind of making comparisons that are a bit wild. For sure casual, amsterdam weekend getaway flights are highly questionable, as they maybe always have been, but like all of it, the problem is not about what should be changed, but maybe about sudden changes.23:26
benakautzer[m]In my case it would matter, quarantine costs 1000 bucks a day, same price as work, so it'll be paid by the customer that it travel too. I am fine with quarantine, I get a hotel with room service and 8h/7days paid to sit it out. Already happend.23:27
whyteksudden changes.... to systems that are highly established and not so highly analyised of understood23:27
whytek*or23:27
de-factoi mean traveling obviously is the way the virus spreads, we have seen many examples of that, and even traveling between regions of same probability of infection with the virus spreads and mixes all of its unknown nasty mutations23:29
benakautzer[m]* In my case it wouldn't matter, quarantine costs 1000 bucks a day, same price as work, so it'll be paid by the customer that it travel too. I am fine with quarantine, I get a hotel with room service and 8h/7days paid to sit it out. Already happend.23:29
de-factoif the new UK variant was not known it would just spread incognito in all of Europe until we would all wonder why case numbers explode simultaneously everywhere23:30
de-factobtw does that sound familiar?23:30
LjLit has already spread23:30
de-factoyes.23:30
LjLit has been around since september23:30
de-factomobility is much too high both on short distance and long distance23:31
de-factoand it is not necessary at all to have so much mobility, there are alternatives for most scenarios23:32
CoronaBot04/r/covid19: Threat Assessment Brief: Rapid increase of a SARS-CoV-2 variant with multiple spike protein mutations observed in the United Kingdom (83 votes) | https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/threat-assessment-brief-rapid-increase-sars-cov-2-variant-united-kingdom | https://redd.it/kh03lx23:33
de-factonow for Christmas everyone wants to travel to visit their family, its absolutely nonsensical and downright should be illegal in my opinion23:33
de-factothen i read things like government allows traveling from UK until midnight. LOL so the flights probably are overbooked by then23:37
de-factowhy does the government not make 14 days quarantine absolutely mandatory? no exceptions at all23:37
de-factothat would have impact, quickly letting everyone through is beyond stupid23:38
de-factopotentially having to quarantine is the least price to demand from those still thinking traveling is no problem in times of a pandemic23:39
de-factohey maybe they can let them sign a statement that they guarantee not to be infected with the new mutant variant? problem solved.... NOT.23:41
BrainstormNew from Wikipedia on VUI-202012/01: User:Cleo2110/sandbox/Silent Night - A Song for the World: Timtrent moved page  to Draft:Silent Night - A Song for the World Preferred location for AfC submissions New page {{Userspace draft|source=ArticleWizard|date=December 2020}} == '''Silent Night - A Song for the World''' == Silent Night - A Song for the World [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/OxikxW23:42
BrainstormLjL: Do as you wish!23:43
de-factolooool23:47
de-factoBrainstorm is alive... 23:47
de-factoand got quite a scary sense of humor, Silent Night - A Song for the World while we are talking about new mutations emerging23:48
DocScrutinizer05LjL: you know the color option of grep? ;-D highlight the matching part of a string23:59
LjLyes, i use it often23:59

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