| SrPx | why would death and Bell's Palsy occur from that vaccine, though? I mean, how that could be explained? isn't the vaccine just injecting some RNAs to make cells produce proteins? how can you go from that to such severe side effects, mechanically? | 00:08 |
|---|---|---|
| SrPx | also, doesn't that make the AstraZeneca vaccine the best overall? 70% efficacy + a mask will make it pretty likely that you won't get covid, no? and the side effects are minimal | 00:09 |
| LjL | What | 00:12 |
| LjL | You can't sum percentages up like thst | 00:12 |
| SrPx | uh? i'm not adding up percentages | 00:13 |
| LjL | How much a mask protects you is unknown, it's a good idea to wear one, but thinking it makes you invincible or something is very wrong, no matter what vaccine you have taken | 00:13 |
| SrPx | I'm saying the combination of a mask and the vaccine will be pretty reasonable when it comes to making you protected | 00:13 |
| LjL | And I don't know what mechanism causes those side effects, inflammation is probably involved with Bell's palsy and inflammation is something that can be prompted by an immune system reaction, but that's just speculation. But the fact that some effects occurred in the vaccine arm is higher rates than the placebo arm is enough for me to link them to the vaccine, as apparently it was to the Norwegian medicine agency | 00:15 |
| de-facto | vaccination phase III trials confirmed protection from symptomatic infections, hence also severe progressions, yet asymptomatic infection protection is still unknown meaning vaccinated wearing a mask protect other not yet vaccinated people from their potential asymptomatic infection, hopefully we will have some more knowledge about that soon | 00:15 |
| SrPx | 13 of 26000 is pretty bad anyway, no? | 00:16 |
| LjL | SrPx: when I can choose (I mean, under the assumption) between a vaccine that gives me 95% protection which side effects that, while concerning on a global scale, are very unlikely, and one that gives me MAYBE 70% because really the confidence interval is pretty big... I really don't factor wearing of masks in, for me personally, the choice seems easy | 00:16 |
| LjL | SrPx: it's not great but for a general statistic let's consider that they were probably *mostly* vaccinating old and frail people at that point. Don't get me wrong, I don't dismiss it at all just because of that, I'm just saying 13 out of 26k can't be taken as representative of the general population (although with some vaccines like J&J, side effects have seemed worse in younger people) | 00:18 |
| SrPx | we have no idea about long term side effects yet though | 00:18 |
| SrPx | to be actually honest I'm worried about the way it works | 00:18 |
| SrPx | injecting synthetic RNA in cells, making they overproduce proteins, and hoping nothing at all goes wrong | 00:19 |
| SrPx | idk, perhaps it is just the fact that this is an experimental tech being applied to more people than I think an experimental tech should | 00:19 |
| de-facto | in a cohort that is that frail and old that it got a pretty high fatality rate already without any additional impacts something like a fever or other (normally harmless temporarily occurring) sideefect already might predate fatalities hence compressing that fatality rate around the time of that impact, yet those cant contribute to fatality rate later on anymore then | 00:24 |
| de-facto | its difficult because how to estimate that for a vaccination decision for such weak or frail patients? | 00:25 |
| LjL | SrPx: well AZ also makes cells produce the very same protein, just it does it with DNA inside a modified virus instead of RNA | 00:26 |
| de-facto | yet we should not make the mistake to take that out of this context and expect something similar in the young and healthy | 00:26 |
| LjL | What "mechanically" worries you more about the former method? | 00:26 |
| LjL | If anything, J&J which is conceptually similar to AZ really seems to have a somewhat appalling side effect rate, so mRNA would compare fsvorably | 00:27 |
| LjL | I'm not even bringing up things like CoronaVac that are being used on the general population before phase 3 data are out AT ALL | 00:28 |
| de-facto | i think for the sideeffects of JJ we should wait for their phase III trial results | 00:28 |
| LjL | Talk about experimenting on people... | 00:28 |
| LjL | de-facto: if they thought the current data were worthless they wouldn't have released them | 00:28 |
| de-facto | yeah they did release them transparently, yet i want to see stats with bigger numbers of participants | 00:29 |
| de-facto | they explicitly mentioned that all of their participants continued the study also the two dose schemes | 00:31 |
| LjL | de-facto: IMO stats with bigger cohorts are useful to find rarer side effects that don't show up in smaller cohorts. But if a side effect is actually very common I don't see why I would wait for phase 3 to contradict phase 2 | 00:31 |
| LjL | Yes fine maybe those people found their side effects were worth getting an effective vaccine | 00:31 |
| LjL | That's neither here nor there IMO. The researchers and reviewers are the ones qualified to determine if a side effect is "severe". | 00:32 |
| de-facto | all i say is let them finish their study and then we should make up our conclusion | 00:32 |
| LjL | It seems like a polite way of saying "don't talk about their phase 2 side effects until phase 3 is out" | 00:33 |
| LjL | I want to talk about it, it's public data that is supposed to have scientific rigour. | 00:33 |
| de-facto | i mean we already talked about it and i said for me it does not fit together, if participation continued the side effects could not have been severe enough to prevent them from doing so | 00:35 |
| de-facto | hence i am curious about an additional information from a bigger cohort relative to what we already have seen in their phase I/II | 00:36 |
| LjL | No problem, my conclusions are always adaptable to new data | 00:36 |
| de-facto | but does Sputnik also employ 5*10^10 Ad.26 virions per ml? | 00:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Rich nations hoarding Covid-19 vaccine doses at the expense of the third world → https://is.gd/UKvAUB | 00:38 |
| SrPx | LjL: well, at least AZ doesn't use synthetic mRNA I guess? But I don't know shit about cellular biology so my opinion is worthless | 00:39 |
| SrPx | why are there less side effects associated with AZ though? | 00:39 |
| LjL | SrPx: AZ doesn't use synthetic RNA, it doesn't use RNA in the first place. But what makes RNA "synthetic" from an observable point of view anyway? | 00:40 |
| SrPx | LjL: well not having uracil for one? | 00:41 |
| LjL | I don't know why it has fewer wide effects, but side effects of vaccines are partly associated to its efficacy, since a strong immune reaction can cause more side effects | 00:41 |
| LjL | So since the mRNA vaccines seem more effective and immunogenic than AZ, that could be one reason | 00:41 |
| SrPx | I mean if it is a different molecule how can we be 100% sure it won't affect the structure of the cell in undesirable ways? specially when it goes through complex ribossome mechanisms | 00:41 |
| de-facto | it uses synthetic DNA plasmid instead, all those vaccines that produce the Wuhan variant of the spike protein stabilized in prefusion configuration need to bring some sort of "synthetic recipe" to instruct a cell to produce that s-protein in order to provoke an immune response by expressing it on their cell surface | 00:42 |
| LjL | SrPx: err, synthetic RNA doesn't have uracil...?! | 00:43 |
| SrPx | LjL: I've read it replaces all uracil by pseudouridine | 00:43 |
| de-facto | yeah he means they modified the uracil nucleotide to prevent triggering an immune response against the mRNA itself | 00:43 |
| SrPx | but again I know shit about cellular biology so I may be misinformed | 00:43 |
| gigasu_shida | interesting | 00:43 |
| LjL | I don't know about that, I'll have to read up | 00:44 |
| de-facto | both modeRNA and BioNTech do that with their mRNA hence modRNA, CureVac does not intend to do it with their mRNA though | 00:44 |
| LjL | Looks like pseudouridine occurs abundantly in nature though, although I'm doing a cursory read | 00:45 |
| de-facto | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleoside-modified_messenger_RNA | 00:46 |
| gigasu_shida | wow ljl digging deep these days | 00:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Trump preparing to lift Europe, UK, Brazil Covid-19 travel restrictions Jan. 26 → https://is.gd/eDrWAG | 00:51 |
| gigasu_shida | oh god we need to keep those restrictions in place | 00:51 |
| SrPx | why? | 00:53 |
| SrPx | I want to visit the US :( | 00:53 |
| SrPx | I swear I won't bring the virus with me | 00:53 |
| de-facto | lol | 00:53 |
| gigasu_shida | come by cargo ship | 00:54 |
| SrPx | un-fun fact: travelling to the US, touristing for 2 days, buying a macbook and coming back to brazil will cost you less than buying the same macbook in brazil | 00:54 |
| LjL | What, he manages to mess things up even when he's no longer president? :| | 00:55 |
| de-facto | yeah i guess they should force people to tell the customs office if they have a new virus variant with them and let them sign a paper that they really really swear they dont have any such variant with them :P | 00:55 |
| SrPx | we can even pinky swear if you're really worried | 00:56 |
| de-facto | LOL :P | 00:56 |
| LjL | SrPx: but then how long before your macbook gets stolen in Brazil anyway? | 00:56 |
| SrPx | well that's why I don't leave my house | 00:56 |
| SrPx | covid is just our public excuse | 00:57 |
| LjL | Oh I thought that was due to covid, my bad | 00:57 |
| SrPx | nah | 00:57 |
| SrPx | problem is they still steal our macbooks when they're arriving by mail | 00:57 |
| SrPx | yes that happened to me and I wish I was kidding | 00:57 |
| SrPx | BUT LOOK THIS LANDSCAPE https://a-static.besthdwallpaper.com/rio-de-janeiro-city-sunset-wallpaper-42079_L.jpg | 00:58 |
| SrPx | tell me if it isn't worth it huh | 00:58 |
| de-facto | many very beautiful places yet unfortunately also many new variants until the rate of new infections goes down very drastically | 01:01 |
| LjL | Psh, Milan is the same as that | 01:13 |
| LjL | Except with less mountains, less sea, less sky, less sunset... | 01:13 |
| LjL | But I can view all those things on my Macbook! | 01:14 |
| SrPx | if you don't have sunsets I think you may not be where you think you are | 01:21 |
| SrPx | is it extremely cold there? | 01:21 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +16165 cases (now 2.9 million) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +5593 cases (now 715233), +79 deaths (now 18093) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +4012 cases (now 920145) since 22 hours ago | 01:25 |
| LjL | SrPx: I was exaggerating for comedic effect | 01:32 |
| LjL | But our sunsets are often foggy and dull | 01:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: China and the World Health Organization could have acted faster to avert catastrophe during the early stages of the coronavirus outbreak, a panel of independent experts has concluded → https://is.gd/cAJmtS | 01:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Xi, Modi expected for 'virtual' Davos in era of pandemic → https://is.gd/GA8p6e | 01:52 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Botswana: +1265 cases (now 18630), +17 deaths (now 88) since 3 days ago | 01:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID review panel critical of China, WHO delay | Coronavirus pandemic News → https://is.gd/A5vITc | 02:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Atlantic: America’s Most Reliable Pandemic Data Are Now at Risk: When a hospital is in trouble, the signs are unmistakable. The number of COVID-19 admissions rises quickly . The number of patients who remain hospitalized grows steadily—and the bar to be admitted gets higher. The percentage of patients in intensive-care units increases. [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/zOV6gV | 03:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virological.org: Latest posts: Phylogenetic evidence that B.1.1.7 has been circulating in the United States since early- to mid-November: Brendan B. Larsen, 1 , Michael Worobey 1* 1 Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology, University of Arizona * Corresponding author’s email: worobey@email.arizona.edu Introduction: When SARS-CoV-2 [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/5QhZhX | 03:29 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +7673 cases (now 2.1 million), +665 deaths (now 48105) since 12 hours ago — Netherlands: +3790 cases (now 921334), +36 deaths (now 13082) since 20 hours ago — France: +6028 cases (now 2.9 million), +369 deaths (now 70686) since 20 hours ago | 03:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Biden to block Trump’s plan to lift Covid-19 European travel restrictions → https://is.gd/jQ861v | 04:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +110 deaths (now 8792) since 12 hours ago | 04:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Independent pandemic review panel critical of China, WHO delays → https://is.gd/rI5LpB | 04:31 |
| de-facto | .title https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.bundesgesundheitsministerium.de/fileadmin/Dateien/3_Downloads/C/Coronavirus/Verordnungen/CorSurV_Ref_mit_Begruendungsteil.pdf | 04:36 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From translate.google.com: Google Translate | 04:36 |
| de-facto | "Ordinance on the molecular genetic surveillance of the coronavirusSARS-CoV-2" | 04:37 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for St. Vin. and Gren.: +1 deaths (now 2) since 15 hours ago | 04:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Vaccine nationalism puts world on brink of 'catastrophic moral failure': WHO chief → https://is.gd/giiJfy | 05:58 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +932 cases (now 679771), +37 deaths (now 20472) since 23 hours ago | 06:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from EurekAlert!: Certain parenting behaviors associated with positive changes in well-being during COVID-19 pandemic: A new longitudinal study in Germany examined day-to-day parenting behavior during the restrictions and closures caused by the COVID-19 pandemic from the end of March until the end of April 2020. Research showed that [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/jidEld | 06:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Indian-American arrested for living in Chicago airport for 3 months due to fear of COVID → https://is.gd/XN1lvj | 06:47 |
| Brainstorm | New preprint: Acute Endotheliitis (Type 3 Hypersensitivity Vasculitis) in Ten COVID-19 Autopsy Brains by Roy H Rhodes et al, made available as preprint on 2021-01-18 at https://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2021.01.16.21249632 [... want %more?] | 07:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: India to gift 2 million doses of Covid-19 vaccine 'Covishield' to Bangladesh → https://is.gd/FoW5bF | 07:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from WHO Euro: New WHO report: population-based screening for cardiovascular disease risk factors does not reduce CVD mortality: Population-level screening for cardiovascular disease (CVD) risk factors has no effect on lowering CVD morbidity and mortality, concludes a recently published WHO Health Evidence Network (HEN) report. To reduce CVD risks, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/v6s87f | 07:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Germany to put people in detention centers for violating quarantine rules → https://is.gd/LAMSLq | 07:49 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Andalusia, Spain: +16694 cases (now 323655), +62 deaths (now 5532) since 3 days ago — C. Valenciana, Spain: +13079 cases (now 210451), +99 deaths (now 3609) since 3 days ago — Castile y Leon, Spain: +6294 cases (now 156306), +24 deaths (now 5369) since 3 days ago — Castile - Castile La Mancha, Spain: +6210 cases (now 125393), +41 deaths (now 4208) since 3 days ago | 07:52 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Covid-19 vaccination associated with adverse drug reactions in elderly people who are frail (80 votes) | https://legemiddelverket.no/nyheter/covid-19-vaccination-associated-with-deaths-in-elderly-people-who-are-frail | https://redd.it/kyp1ar | 08:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Vaccines not prerequisite for Tokyo Olympics: gov't spokesman → https://is.gd/GHeRBX | 08:38 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: An entire Louisiana family got coronavirus -- except for this vaccine trial participant (10096 votes) | https://www.nola.com/news/coronavirus/article_f1715c7a-590c-11eb-9f20-cbe92953b689.html | https://redd.it/l07idb | 08:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: A new COVID-19 challenge: Mutations rise along with cases → https://is.gd/J2ZTpq | 08:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | January 19, 2021: The WHO pages contain up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. → https://is.gd/SAuFnE | 09:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Turks and Caicos: +50 cases (now 1155) since 5 hours ago | 09:13 |
| zutt | %cases sweden | 09:14 |
| Brainstorm | zutt: In Sweden, there have been 523486 confirmed cases (5.1% of the population) and 10323 deaths (2.0% of cases) as of 3 days ago. 4.9 million tests were performed (10.6% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Sweden for time series data. | 09:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Chinese city rushes to build massive COVID-19 quarantine centre: Thousands of prefabricated rooms fill a vast field on the outskirts of China's Shijiazhuang city as construction crews work around the clock to erect a large quarantine facility to curb the city's growing COVID-19 outbreak. → https://is.gd/9FuT9Q | 10:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Politics: STAT+: After repeated delays, Trump’s HHS punts on oversight of a massive Covid-19 response fund for hospitals → https://is.gd/cKjWG6 | 10:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Dubai, party haven amid pandemic, faces its biggest surge → https://is.gd/BjRxlx | 11:06 |
| zutt | %cases israel | 11:07 |
| Brainstorm | zutt: In Israel, there have been 562167 confirmed cases (6.1% of the population) and 4049 deaths (0.7% of cases) as of an hour ago. 9.7 million tests were performed (5.8% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.8% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 0.8% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Israel for time series data. | 11:07 |
| fella[m] | Covid-19 will not kill you. It is the vaccine that will kill you. Good luck to weak humans that get the jab. Live short and suffer. | 11:11 |
| zutt | fella[m]: how do you think the vaccine kills people? | 11:12 |
| Thierry[m] | <zutt "fella: how do you think the vacc"> https://odysee.com/@Covid19docs:4/Please-watch-Dolores-Cahill-Coronavirus-Vaccines:3 | 11:15 |
| zutt | shady url, excuse me for not clicking that | 11:17 |
| zutt | could you elaborate in any case? a TL;DR | 11:17 |
| the-wes | odysee appears to be one of those "alternative social media" sites, similar to parler | 11:24 |
| zutt | ah, so we have our friends from internet research agency here again | 11:25 |
| the-wes | the link goes to a video of someone, presumably Dolores Cahill, talking and showing a medical publication from 2012 | 11:26 |
| zutt | I see | 11:26 |
| the-wes | this is the publication shown: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3335060/pdf/pone.0035421.pdf | 11:27 |
| zutt | aah, thanks - seems to be very old indeed | 11:28 |
| the-wes | interestingly, this video is a 4 minute screen recording of another video, which is 40 minutes long | 11:29 |
| zutt | half of the stuff in that publication is going over my head.. | 11:30 |
| the-wes | that is a common issue with discussions of this type. these people put up pictures or quotes from a real scientific paper and then completely misrepresent what it says, relying on the likelihood that the people they're trying to influence won't understand or go to the effort of actually reading the paper | 11:31 |
| the-wes | now, old does not necessarily mean invalid. if we wanted to put in the effort to discuss this in good faith, we would need to read the paper and then consider the claims the presenter is making | 11:31 |
| the-wes | 12 seconds in, the presenter mispronounces "pulmonary" so I'm already suspicious | 11:32 |
| zutt | lol :P | 11:33 |
| the-wes | at the 1 minute mark, she equates "antibody-dependent response" with "cytokine storm" and "immuno-priming" and "immune super-priming" which are all very different things | 11:34 |
| the-wes | at 1:30 she states that when you use an mrna vaccine, you "bypass the natural immune response" | 11:35 |
| the-wes | I'm glad this is only 4 minutes, the BS is already up to my knees | 11:35 |
| the-wes | if I had to listen to 40 minutes of this I would drown in it | 11:36 |
| zutt | doesn't sound like a very promising talk.. | 11:39 |
| the-wes | here's a reuters story about this same presenter making other verifiably false claims: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pandemic-flu/fact-check-the-novel-coronavirus-outbreak-was-described-as-a-pandemic-by-the-world-health-organisation-in-march-2020-idUSKBN2872HX | 11:39 |
| zutt | googled the name "Dolores cahill" - first article "UCD professor asked to resign from EU committee over Covid-19 claims" (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ucd-professor-asked-to-resign-from-eu-committee-over-covid-19-claims-1.4277698) not very promising | 11:40 |
| Thierry[m] | I took a short part but longer is better it's really interesting. She talks about this paper and insist she is researcher but it's not her main domain, she just read it as you can read it | 11:54 |
| the-wes | I am reading it, and so far it does not say what she claims it says | 11:55 |
| Thierry[m] | she said that the message integrate in your dna(spike protein?) and has no effet. some other virus do the same the problem(8% of our dna come from rna) come after when you meet the virus or a variant. your antibodies notice same signature in all your cellule and it's fatal because it reacts against all your cellules. | 11:58 |
| Thierry[m] | she said it what happened with animals | 11:58 |
| Thierry[m] | She's not the one to say that and before covid I read that too | 11:59 |
| the-wes | she says that. I have not found a point in the paper that says that. | 12:00 |
| Thierry[m] | because this type of vaccine is not a new Idea. It's just never used on human and we do not understand exactly how it works. We do not even know exactly how immune system works | 12:00 |
| the-wes | these are both technically true statements, but there is no evidence to support the claims that an mrna vaccine will cause the immune system to attack the body's own cells or otherwise be fatal in any way. | 12:01 |
| Thierry[m] | I do not know if it's exact but it's not stupid and should be verified not throw away | 12:02 |
| the-wes | it has not been thrown away. these things are being actively tested and monitored | 12:03 |
| the-wes | many thousands of people have already been given the vaccine and not one has died from it. | 12:03 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "these are both technically true "> she's not the only one to say that it's what happened to animal and ask to verify on people dead after vaccination | 12:03 |
| the-wes | she's not the only one, no. there are indeed more idiots in the world than just her and you. | 12:03 |
| Thierry[m] | she do not assert this fact, she say the probality is very high and must be verified | 12:04 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "many thousands of people have al"> she said it happened when you meet the virus or a variant | 12:04 |
| Thierry[m] | it could take months to happen | 12:05 |
| Thierry[m] | or years | 12:05 |
| Thierry[m] | not everybody has been seek on earth | 12:05 |
| Thierry[m] | what is idiot in asking to check something and warn about risk? | 12:05 |
| the-wes | you are not really asking to check something. you are warning about an imaginary risk | 12:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Small biotech launches human trials of a potential ‘backstop’ for Covid-19 vaccines: Gritstone Oncology said Tuesday it will start human testing of an experimental Covid-19 vaccine the company hopes could be a "backstop" to other vaccines. → https://is.gd/1bsMkw | 12:07 |
| the-wes | it is difficult to prove a negative. the best I can do is point to an absence of reports of deaths from the vaccine. although, "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" so that can only take us so far. | 12:09 |
| the-wes | here is a halfway supporting article for my claim: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-18/norway-finds-no-direct-link-between-elderly-deaths-and-vaccine | 12:10 |
| the-wes | "In Norway, 33 people aged 75 and over died following immunization, according to the agency.s latest figures. All were already seriously ill" ... "more than 48,000 people vaccinated" | 12:10 |
| the-wes | in other words, the people who died after getting the vaccine were going to die anyway | 12:10 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes ""In Norway, 33 people aged 75 an"> same for covid-19 | 12:11 |
| Thierry[m] | in France almost all died people are over 84 years old and have comorbidity | 12:12 |
| Thierry[m] | we took mesure to protect them when the pandemia started | 12:12 |
| the-wes | that is an invalid comparison. the death rate from the virus would be higher if there were not measures in place to slow its spread. | 12:12 |
| Thierry[m] | then there was imaginary risk for children and young people | 12:12 |
| the-wes | not imaginary, but different from the risk to old people. | 12:13 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "that is an invalid comparison. t"> in France hospitalisation rate was lowering before the second lockdown | 12:14 |
| the-wes | those children and young people will not likely die from covid (though some do), but they can spread it to vulnerable people. | 12:14 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "those children and young people "> yes people who died from vaccine | 12:15 |
| the-wes | no. that did not happen. | 12:15 |
| zutt | Thierry[m]: do you have a window in your room that you are working at? | 12:15 |
| the-wes | hospitalization rate is not the only factor considered when implementing a lockdown. I think the "second lockdown" you're referring to was in response to the discovery of the new, more easily transmissible variant in england. | 12:15 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "no. that did not happen."> I mean category of people who died of vaccination | 12:15 |
| the-wes | that is a category of zero people. | 12:16 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "hospitalization rate is not the "> No it was before I think | 12:16 |
| Thierry[m] | but not sure I should check | 12:16 |
| the-wes | you can use a division-by-zero error to make any statement appear to be true. have you seen the 1=2 algebra trick? | 12:17 |
| Thierry[m] | <zutt "Thierry: do you have a window in"> yes why this question? | 12:17 |
| the-wes | I predict he's going to suggest that you make use of this window :) | 12:17 |
| zutt | just made sure you're not from IRA | 12:17 |
| zutt | but yeah, do look outside the window occasionally :P | 12:17 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "that is a category of zero peopl"> I mean vulnerable people | 12:17 |
| the-wes | then you create a false equivalency. | 12:18 |
| Thierry[m] | <zutt "just made sure you're not from I"> what is IRA? | 12:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Germany mulls tighter shutdown as virus variants fuel fears: Chancellor Angela Merkel and leaders of Germany's 16 states are expected Tuesday to extend and tighten a partial lockdown beyond January, as fears grow over virus variant strains believed to be more contagious. → https://is.gd/tf1oRa | 12:20 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "then you create a false equivale"> You look at details when big picture is already not coherent | 12:20 |
| the-wes | later in the same article: "Millions of doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine have been administered in the U.S., U.K. and some other countries with no deaths reported due to the vaccine" | 12:21 |
| the-wes | by all means, do look at details. but treat details as details and patterns as patterns. you are attempting to create a pattern where none exists. | 12:22 |
| zutt | Thierry[m]: IRA is short for internet research agency, we have suspected that they are now coming to IRC to spread misinformation | 12:22 |
| zutt | seems to be a daily thing too nowdays.. | 12:22 |
| the-wes | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency | 12:23 |
| Thierry[m] | thank you I'm not from an agency 😄 | 12:23 |
| zutt | your views with these vaccines & covid-19 seem to align very much with the misinformation they are spreading, maybe you have been victim of their misinformation campaigns | 12:26 |
| the-wes | cahill is probably also a victim of such campaigns | 12:27 |
| zutt | possibly, luckily with covid-19 related things theres science that is backing up the truth - unlike with politics | 12:28 |
| Thierry[m] | I think misinformation is when you force one way to think, not when you ask questions. | 12:29 |
| Thierry[m] | she may be wrong, but I think that some question that some other reasearcher have to answer | 12:29 |
| Thierry[m] | transparency is missing | 12:30 |
| zutt | with covid-19, transparency is not the issue.. theres so many scientists working on this, and so many publications & studies about.. everything | 12:31 |
| the-wes | you are incorrect about what misinformation is. | 12:32 |
| the-wes | additionally, the fact that cahill claims there is a lack of transparency does not mean there actually is a lack of transparency. that is an excuse she's using to justify her nonsense claims | 12:33 |
| Thierry[m] | she's not direcly claiming it. I think it because many doctors ask questions and nobody answers to these questions | 12:34 |
| the-wes | like which doctors and which questions? | 12:36 |
| the-wes | I should clarify that I do not mean that we have all the answers about this. it is still a new thing and we are learning all the time. but we have very good information to support the position that the vaccine is safe and effective and is not going to kill anyone (who was not about to die anyway) | 12:37 |
| the-wes | if I were in charge, I might have added some rules about not giving the vaccine to people who are near death anyway, to address exactly this sort of problem | 12:37 |
| Thierry[m] | I have to search to ask these questions clearly because it's technical and not my domain. If I use a word instead of another you'll say it's non sense | 12:40 |
| Thierry[m] | why I have been ejected? | 12:42 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "if I were in charge, I might hav"> that's one of remarks I heard. trials has been done on young people but we vaccine old people first. | 12:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: Assess the effects of extending Pfizer vaccine dosing interval, expert urges: A leading statistician has written to health secretary Matt Hancock urging him to investigate the effects of extending the gap between the first and second dose of the Pfizer BioNTech covid-19... → https://is.gd/9ZMJOR | 12:44 |
| the-wes | perhaps as a non-native english speaker, you may not be aware that "I'm just asking questions" is a common excuse used by trolls to make their trolling seem less trolly | 12:48 |
| the-wes | whether you were aware of this or not, what you're doing is not "just asking questions" but using logical fallacies to draw conclusions not supported by facts | 12:49 |
| the-wes | "you'll say I'm speaking nonsense just because I used the wrong word" is also an excuse. I said you're speaking nonsense based on the merits of the claim you stated. if I misunderstood something you said at some point, please do correct me. I will be happy to re-phrase my refutation in accordance with your intended nonsense rather than your unintended nonsense. :) | 12:51 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes "perhaps as a non-native english "> I see what you mean asking some questions could start endless debate. | 12:52 |
| the-wes | "endless debate" is the least negative consequence possible. experienced trolls use carefully crafted narrative formed with the appearance of a "question" to convince people of ridiculous nonsense all the time. | 12:54 |
| Thierry[m] | <the-wes ""you'll say I'm speaking nonsens"> Ok well thank you seems a good point to start constructive exchanges | 12:56 |
| the-wes | I was pretty good at trolling in my younger days on the internet. I am not proud of that part of my past, but at least it did give me a very good understanding of how they work, and it helps me to recognize it when someone is trying to disguise it | 12:57 |
| ubLIX[m] | the-wes: and your considered verdict, as regards grillon? | 13:06 |
| the-wes | no idea what that is | 13:07 |
| ubLIX[m] | nick=grillon on matrix side of bridge, nick=Thierry[m] on IRC side of bridge | 13:08 |
| the-wes | oh. well... I can see why you'd want to kick him. if I were an op, I would not, at this point. but that's just me | 13:09 |
| the-wes | for a while I thought it was the same guy who started off this whole debacle, but now I'm not so sure | 13:09 |
| the-wes | that guy definitely needs a thorough banning | 13:09 |
| ubLIX[m] | i think THAT guy appears every day with a new nick and host | 13:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: One in eight in England have had COVID: official data: An estimated 12 percent of people in England had been infected with coronavirus by December last year, up from nine percent in November, according to official antibody data released Tuesday. → https://is.gd/pqBhHN | 13:10 |
| the-wes | guh | 13:10 |
| the-wes | oh goodie. | 13:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: The UAE is on track to have half its population vaccinated by the end of March → https://is.gd/w120xO | 13:22 |
| Thierry[m] | I'm on matrix and it opens a bridge to irc(do not know how it works), I have answer a question how this vaccin could be armfull or something like that by sending a small video. Someone told me I'm an idiot as the woman who talk. That was very opiniated position but ok we are on internet. | 13:36 |
| Thierry[m] | Now I'm cooking. That's all folk!🐰 | 13:36 |
| Thierry[m] | I can read and listen to english buit it's harder to express my self | 13:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: News and press releases: (news): Global regulators highlight key role of healthcare professionals in fostering confidence in COVID-19 vaccines, , 19/01/2021 → https://is.gd/o2ygb9 | 14:12 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for UAE: +3491 cases (now 260223), +5 deaths (now 756) since a day ago | 14:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Joe Biden’s national security Cabinet nominees face Senate tests → https://is.gd/AzYoDr | 14:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Covid2019: The President's Cat: Having Fun During COVID-19 → https://is.gd/P2H1v6 | 14:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from NIH Director's blog: Trying to Make Sense of Long COVID Syndrome: Nearly 400,000 Americans have now lost their lives to COVID-19. But thousands of others who’ve gotten sick and survived COVID-19 are finding that a full recovery can be surprisingly elusive. Weeks and months after seemingly recovering from even mild cases of COVID-19, many [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/SeweT3 | 15:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: RAPID: High-resolution agent-based modeling of COVID-19 spreading in a small town: COVID-19 has wreaked havoc across the planet. As of January 1, 2021, the WHO has reported nearly 82 million cases globally, with over 1.8 million deaths. In the face of this upheaval, public health authorities and the general population are [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/qItU4t | 15:14 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +2260 cases (now 502191), +92 deaths (now 8820) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +8793 cases (now 2.1 million) since 23 hours ago | 15:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>the message integrate in your dna<< no it doesn't. Definitely not | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>it's what happened to animal<< no | 15:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>she said it happened when you meet the virus<< AIUI not for RNA virus | 15:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: STAT+: Pharmalittle: U.S. health officials seek more use of Covid-19 antibody drugs; Pfizer to reduce vaccine supplies to Europe: U.S. officials are pleading for more use of Covid-19 antibody therapies from Eli Lilly and Regeneron Pharmaceuticals that have been plagued by logistical issues, lack of efficacy data, and insufficient… → https://is.gd/GYWlud | 15:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's well known that 8(?)% of our DNA are "junk" DNA from virus infections long long ago (10000s of years possibly). It's never seen to happen with RNA virus nor is there any plausible idea how it could happen from RNA. AIUI those are DNA infections, but I'm speculating now. A zillion scientists claiming >>there is NO WAY WHATSOEVER that mRNA gets into your DNA<< is a fact | 15:43 |
| de-facto[m] | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrovirus | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh yeah >>Once inside the host cell's cytoplasm, the virus uses its own reverse transcriptase enzyme to produce DNA from its RNA genome<< SARS-CoV2 has no such transcriptase and definitely the vaccine doesn't | 15:55 |
| de-facto[m] | yes thats correct | 15:56 |
| genera | thats what zey tell us! | 15:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Thierry[m]: you might find this a quite worthwhile read: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/ | 15:58 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: Well, it goes into a muscle or similar. It doesn't go into your gametes (sperm, eggs, etc.), so you wouldn't expect this to create some kind of human endogenous retroviral DNA. | 15:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Atque: that's not even the point. It's RNA and won't go to DNA, it gets dissolved quickly without ever replicating | 16:00 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: That's wrong. mRNA vaccine do contain RNA that enters cells. Once there, it affects cell operation to make a protein that is an analogue of what the COVID-19 virus makes. It won't become a HERV probably though. | 16:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Partha Kar: The end of the tunnel, and the bumps on the way: At the start of this new year, even as we’re buffeted by the unwelcome news of a more infective strain of covid, it feels at times as if we’re nearing the end of a long tunnel, with light just around... → https://is.gd/XyXUhd | 16:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>that's wrong<< is wrong. What you provide as explanation why I'm wrong is not even faintly in opposition to what I said | 16:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm 100% aware of every single detail you listed | 16:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >mRNA vaccine do contain RNA<< vs >>It's RNA <<. I am too lazy to go on to find that there's literally not a single word you tagged as being wrong, in my statement | 16:07 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: It's not wrong. It supplements the DNA and effects the production of proteins in the cell. It's not "dissolved quickly". It's there long enough to induce an immune response. | 16:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the mRNA enters cell, instructs ribisome how to build the spike proteine https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Protein_translation.gif where it gets cut off some of its AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA polyadenyl chain trailer. When this trailer got eaten up, the mRNA gets "garbage collected". And ever in its whole live it gets *duplicated* like DNA on mitose | 16:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and Never | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh so my notion of "quickly" is incorrect. I see | 16:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry for that | 16:14 |
| de-facto[m] | Atque there are all kinds of RNase around to destroy free RNA, hence in the vaccine it must be protected in transport vehicles those lipid nano particles | 16:15 |
| de-facto[m] | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribonuclease | 16:15 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: It's eventually broken down, but it persists for a time. It doesn't create one protein spike and disappear. Like a normal vaccine, it needs to persist in the body long enough for the immune response to be meaningful. | 16:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Parental mental health worsens under new national COVID-19 restrictions: Parental stress, depression, and anxiety have again increased since new national restrictions have been introduced according to the latest report from the Oxford University-led COVID-19 Supporting Parents, Adolescents, and Children in Epidemics (Co-SPACE) [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/SOBLzj | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Atque: if you need that for your well being to prove me wrong, ho on. Yes I didn't explicitly strate that it takes several passes of the mRNA through the ribosome and each pass will cut off a smal chunk of the AAAA trailer, and I think I said only when that trailer is eaten *completely* then the mRNA gets discarded | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway you won't re-educate me on my usage of the term "quickly" | 16:20 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: What's up with diatribe. Settle. | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | compared to the 10000s of years it took some retrovirus to enter human genome, the mRNA definitely is very very short-lived. Even compared to average max age of a human it's still extremly quick | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Atque: no you're wrong. Seattle is else where (just to show you how it feels) | 16:24 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: That's not right either. It doesn't take 10,000s of years for retroviruses to become HERVs. They are quick spontaneous events. | 16:26 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: Seattle? I don't get what you're trying to say, tbh. | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | go pester sb else | 16:26 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: Stop trolling | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh *I* am trolling. ROTFL | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you're again wrong. you have no idea of trolling | 16:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or whait, you DO :-o | 16:28 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: Dude, you're talking about Seattle randomly and attacking people over discussing biochemical processes. What am to make of that? It looks like trolling. | 16:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you started attackin me. I can't use it particularly since you were totally off-topic when you blamed me for being wrong. Take it elsewhere. Where have you been when Thierry[m] needed your halpful words? | 16:32 |
| blkshp | And following on from that the "how to use punctuation" program | 16:33 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: I was just talking about the vaccine. You have been randomly alleging sinister motives, talking about Seattle, mentioning mental health issues etc. Maybe think about it. It's not hard. | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *plonk* | 16:37 |
| Atque | DocScrutinizer05: See. That's inappropriate. You need to think about how you make people feel hey. | 16:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 misinformation: scientists create a 'psychological vaccine' to protect against fake news: Anti-vaccination groups are projected to dominate social media in the next decade if left unchallenged. To counter their viral misinformation at a time when COVID-19 vaccines are being rolled out, our research team has produced a [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/7Wudmy | 16:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Big data can help doctors predict which COVID patients will become seriously ill: The pandemic continues to pose huge challenges to health services worldwide. Hospitals are in crisis as the pace of new COVID-19 cases outstrips their capacity. What makes things particularly difficult is that the coronavirus doesn't affect [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/MYWzHh | 16:54 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +4444 cases (now 924436), +87 deaths (now 13160) since 23 hours ago | 17:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 virus triggers antibodies from previous coronavirus infections: study: The results of a study led by Northern Arizona University and the Translational Genomics Research Institute (TGen), an affiliate of City of Hope, suggest the immune systems of people infected with COVID-19 may rely on antibodies created during [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/lFub4F | 17:20 |
| de-facto | RKI COVID-19 Germany 2021-01-19: Weekly Incidence 131.5/100k, Infections +11369 (2052028 total), Fatalities +989 (47622 total), COVID@ICU 4920 (incl. 2852 on ventilator) | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Thierry[m]: it maybe got lost in that silly pointless "discussion" above, so here a summary again: Of course IF the mRNA would possibly become a part of human DNA, that would be *extremely* concerning. But scientists are aware of that and they all agree that a mRNA lacks any chance to get into the human genome, such thing is only known from retrovirus and possibly other pathogens that at some point in time deal with their own DNA | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | either by bringing their own transcriptase to convert their RNA into DNA or by genuinely bringing their own DNA. the mRNA vaccine does neither so it's simply impossible it gets into the human DNA | 17:23 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: GABA administration prevents severe illness and death following coronavirus infection in mice (82 votes) | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7536896 | https://redd.it/l0kjw2 | 17:27 |
| Shaded | I'm getting vaccinated today! So relieved | 17:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from In The Pipeline: Memory B Cells, Infection, and Vaccination: This new article, I have to say, is rather reassuring about the human immune response to the coronavirus. It’s from a large team centered at Rockefeller University in New York, and it examines 87 people who have previously been infected. We’ve seen many studies of antibody titers [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/tWZohG | 17:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from Derek Lowe: @Dereklowe: Thoughts on antibody response to the new coronavirus variants, and how that may actually improve over time (with special relevance to people getting vaccinated now):http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/01/19/memory-b-cells-infection-and-vaccination@c_gaebler @NussenzweigL @GuptaR_lab → https://is.gd/9VwTuN | 17:57 |
| de-facto | RNA is a bit like a computer program, it can encode many things and functionalities hence mean a lot of very different things, that means generalized statements talking about "RNA" only can be done similar if talking about "computer programs", obviously when information is the main aspect of something a more differentiated approach (put into a context) is much better suited for that | 17:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +3787 cases (now 2.4 million) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +5918 cases (now 717740), +121 deaths (now 18162) since 23 hours ago | 18:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +28434 cases (now 3.5 million), +1525 deaths (now 91470) since 10 hours ago | 18:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Schools may reopen region by region, says medical adviser: Top medical adviser suggests schools in England may reopen region by region after lockdown. → https://is.gd/RiYdhC | 18:21 |
| de-facto | btw thats what both biological and also virtual viruses do: they encode their own tools to implement everything for their function but also exploit and hijack already present capabilities or functionality | 18:22 |
| de-facto | therefore its very interesting to investigate the semantic meaning of all those sections in a given RNA sequence in the context of its natural environment where it implements its function | 18:23 |
| LjL | Shaded, let us know how it goes | 18:25 |
| de-facto | and since SARS-CoV-2, thanks to its proofreading capabilities, can have a comparatively long RNA sequence (afaik close to the theoretical limit even), it encodes a lot of very interesting functions, not only those proteins that form the structure of the virion but also quite some non-structural proteins that serve a specific purpose in its replication cycle, imho a very fascinating field of research to do into the semantics of those NSPs | 18:26 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: The effect of early treatment with ivermectin on viral load, symptoms and humoral response in patients with non-severe COVID-19: A pilot, double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized clinical trial (80 votes) | http://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30464-8/fulltext | https://redd.it/l0jrv2 | 18:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid: UK records new daily high of 1,610 deaths: The total number of deaths, within 28 days of a positive test, during the pandemic is now over 90,000. → https://is.gd/hdRByZ | 18:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Set clear rules for vaccinating health care workers against SARS-CoV-2: Provincial and territorial governments should set clear rules for vaccinating health care workers against SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, in public and private settings, and should not leave this task to employers, according to an analysis in [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/z3WDtT | 18:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid: UK records new daily high of 1,610 deaths: The total number of deaths, within 28 days of a positive test, during the pandemic is now over 90,000. → https://is.gd/hdRByZ | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Germany: new mask regulations: ffp2 or **OP-mask**, no more selfmade. Oh gosh! WHY? NOT? JUST! FFP2|3!!! as if OP-maks were any more efficient than home made | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly they are actually WORSE | 19:05 |
| LjL | "In this cohort, symptoms lasted for a median of 12 days (0–44 days) during the acute phase, and 10 (11%) of the participants were hospitalized. Consistent with other reports3,4, 38 (44%) of the participants reported persistent long-term symptoms attributable to COVID-19" | 19:05 |
| LjL | you can use this on people who only consider deaths | 19:05 |
| LjL | 44 f'ing percent | 19:06 |
| LjL | an average of 6 months after infection | 19:06 |
| LjL | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03207-w | 19:06 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, what is OP? | 19:06 |
| LjL | sounds like this will artificially increase the cost of masks | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | surgical | 19:09 |
| de-facto | surgeons mask, those cheap ones with ok-ish filter caps but such a bad fit that air leakage makes filter cap irrelevant more or less | 19:09 |
| LjL | well i hope we don't copy you, we have lots of handmade masks | 19:10 |
| de-facto | it does not make sense imho, they should make ensuring a correct wearing (yes over the nose, but some people still did not get that after one year) and tight fitting mandatory (if there is air leakage filter capabilities are giving much much weaker protection if any at all). If those two are ensured it would make sense to talk about filter efficiency such as FFP2 vs FFP3 etc | 19:13 |
| de-facto | so either aerosol transmission is the target of their rules or its not, anything between does not make sense to me | 19:13 |
| de-facto | because cotton community masks block droplets trajectory just fine if only that is to be prevented | 19:14 |
| de-facto | imho a typical scenario for stupid politicians weakening a scientific proposal: probably the idea originally was to prevent aerosol transmission, yet then someone mentioned that not enough FFP2 masks would be available hence they made the compromise to also include surgeons mask | 19:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's driving me nuts and directly into the Qonan camp (well, almost), all that braindead idiotic handwaving by politicians, night curfew, surgical masks. reducing living room max meeting number while ignoring the elevator out the flat's door and the office | 19:19 |
| LjL | i still kinda disagree on the valve thing. on the one hand, valves tend to be designed to push the air downwards, hopefully minimizing its impact; on the other hand, valveless FFP2 masks i've tried quickly get wet inside while i'm walking or am just not standing still, which makes them ineffective. surgical masks on the other hand have hydrophobic layers, but they don't fit tightly so it doesn't matter. | 19:21 |
| LjL | i'm afraid i'm not going to change my FFP2 mask every time it gets wet since that would mean throwing out one every half an hour | 19:22 |
| de-facto | just because one non-pharmaceutical measure is not addressed (at all or correctly) it does not mean that another NPI is also not correct | 19:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | really no long until my mental fuse blows and I start going guerrilla, organizing midnight pet-walk marches and dust bomb assaults that knock out all those who don't wear a proper particle filtering mask | 19:23 |
| de-facto | yes afaik wet FFP2 masks would have to be replaced, because they become ineffective when wet | 19:23 |
| LjL | it'd mean replacing it all the time in milan climate. not doable. | 19:23 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, this is not really a helpful attitude im sorry to say | 19:23 |
| LjL | and technically i'd violate the law just by replacing it in public. | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it isn't | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not at all | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but maybe, just maybe it will force the politicians to think twice. For sure will keep me from going completely insane | 19:25 |
| de-facto | even when its hard sometimes (i understand your anger though) we really have to try to be as constructive as possible to ensure cohesion and try to focus on doing the right things to prevent as many transmissions as possible | 19:27 |
| CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Supermarket chain Aldi to pay U.S. workers who get COVID-19 vaccination (10236 votes) | https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-aldi-idUSKBN29O1GN | https://redd.it/l0k2zi | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: maybe a FFP2 with valve and a surgical mask over it just covering that valve, would be a thing for you? | 19:29 |
| LjL | yes that's what we use when we need to go to places like doctors | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then, 2M Aura has a ready made FFP2 just like that | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 3M | 19:29 |
| LjL | anyway it's not just "for me", you really need to realize that real-life usage differs from test conditions | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FFP2 with valve covered by fabric | 19:30 |
| de-facto | i have an FFP3 with valve and it works pretty well, the filter does not get wet so fast, but the valve itself does get wet, sometimes even some condensation drops from it which is... problematic in some scenarios | 19:30 |
| LjL | a simple, valveless, 3M FFP2 (which is better than those KN95s, but a pretty simple mask still) is €7.50 on amazon :| | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 3M cost more than gold | 19:32 |
| LjL | and the masks that the government "subsidized", usually worse than old surgical masks, have sometimes actually been found to be toxic (or at least very smelly) | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the valved covered FFp2 Aura costs some 18bucks | 19:33 |
| LjL | so maybe the government should look into what they're doing before they tell me which mask to wear | 19:33 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, i don't think i'm seeing this one on amazon anyway. do you have the code? a lot of them are called "Aura" | 19:34 |
| de-facto | i think its a good idea to push the usage of FFP2 masks though, the more prevalent their usage and the stricter their fit is controlled the more aerosol transmission is prevented | 19:35 |
| de-facto | yet as with everything that is intended for wide usage the production and supply chains really have to be made to scale to that | 19:36 |
| LjL | de-facto, i think the FFP2 that are really KN95 which are generally found here have a terrible fit, barely better than surgical | 19:38 |
| LjL | and since we can barely produce surgical masks that aren't toxic, i really really doubt we are able to produce FFP2 | 19:39 |
| de-facto | yeah the fit, especially around the nose, is extremely important to be airtight | 19:39 |
| LjL | we have moved production of practically everything to China, and slowly the know-how has moved too. now we pay the price | 19:39 |
| de-facto | unfortunately true | 19:39 |
| de-facto | a year into the pandemic still | 19:40 |
| de-facto | idk if it really is such a difficult production (in terms of know-how), id rather assume import from China is cheaper and as long as politicians would not really push for such things no company would care to implement a domestic production like with inner country supply chains | 19:43 |
| de-facto | and as long as China is able to deliver some (barely sufficient) amounts that dependency will just remain to be in place unless a decision is made to really go ahead and change that with domestic production lines | 19:44 |
| de-facto | maybe a company should make a financial concept for implementing that and offer the government a contract to pay for implementation of it: after a certain time such an offer should be made public so press could write about it and politicians be put under public pressure to go ahead with it in the interest of independent national biosecurity | 19:47 |
| de-facto | then politicians either would have to come up with their own alternative implementation or would have to explain to the public why it is in their interest to decline such an offer from a company | 19:48 |
| LjL | here things are only bound to get worse, the government has barely a majority now | 19:51 |
| LjL | they won't be able to do most things | 19:51 |
| LjL | the alternative is elections with a sure win for the right | 19:51 |
| de-facto | oh that does not sound good :/ | 19:51 |
| de-facto | acting in the interest of the people and having some success with that should be very beneficial for agreement with government in power, or the other way around: if opposition would block the opportunity of national production of masks for example they should loose support | 19:54 |
| de-facto | thats the thing, any politician with some sort of success in fighting transmission or implementing infrastructure for biosecurity right now will gain popularity because people are concerned about this for good reason | 19:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for St. Vin. and Gren.: +46 cases (now 540) since 15 hours ago | 20:00 |
| LjL | if you look at https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations Italy's curve has basically flattened :| | 20:03 |
| Chico | What do you guys think about the several deaths in Norway after receiving the vaccine from pfizer? | 20:03 |
| LjL | Chico, i think the same as their medicine agency thinks... the vaccine was barely tested in people very old and frail, so it should be barely used in those people | 20:04 |
| de-facto | or seen the other way around: going into opposition against proposals with realistic potential to prevent transmission or gaining some real independence from foreign supply chains probably will end up bad on the public record for that politician because their name always could be mentioned in one sentence with occurrence of problems in regard to those issues that these proposals aimed to address | 20:05 |
| LjL | and people should know that these vaccines are normally safe but stronger side effects than expected by them *may* develop. if they're unaware of this they may be taken aback, and maybe skip the second dose. | 20:05 |
| Chico | Many people in my area are anti vax. Sadly. | 20:06 |
| LjL | de-facto, you say those things but what i hear from here are the usual political games with suggestions of secret service involvement... who knows, i certainly won't claim to understand italian politics but i think unfortunately there are a NUMBER of things that may prevail over "cooperation to handle the pandemic" | 20:06 |
| LjL | Chico, i don't know what to say about people who are blanket anti-vax... but those who are merely wary or suspicious of *this* vaccine, they have reason to be. they should be approached while acknowledging their concerns, and help them figure out the risks/benefits | 20:08 |
| de-facto | i partly disagree with that: the elderly are the ones with highest risk from COVID hence most benefit from vaccination against it, so any proposal against usage of vaccines in their cohort must be very well established by significant stats, so for example if they really are frail and believed to potentially be unable to deal with the side effects of vaccination, we really need a very good differentiated approach to estimate that | 20:08 |
| Chico | I feel like the RNA vaccine is a big leap forward to not only curing Covid, but many other illnesses as well | 20:08 |
| LjL | Chico, talking about the risks, for instance, let me re-post what i posted earlier from a study. many people don't realize that COVID can be like this: | 20:08 |
| LjL | The remaining 87 participants with RT-PCR–con-firmed COVID-19 diagnosis and/or seroconversion returned for analysis approximately 191 days (6.2 months, range: 165-223 days) after the onset of symptoms. In this cohort, symptoms lasted for a median of 12 days (0–44 days) during the acute phase, and 10 (11%) of the participants were hospitalized. Consistent with other reports3,4, 38 (44%) of the participants reported persistent long-term sympt | 20:09 |
| LjL | oms attributable to COVID-19 | 20:09 |
| LjL | 44% of people who had COVID, out of a cohort where only 10% were hospitalized, still had symptoms about around 6 months | 20:09 |
| de-facto | and also we cant expect anything similar in the young and healthy, for them the side effects are only temporarily despite even possibly a bit stronger they easily can deal with that | 20:09 |
| LjL | i'd take a vaccine with 0.5% risk of Bell's palsy over THAT | 20:09 |
| LjL | (number is not accurate) | 20:09 |
| Chico | Wasn't the Bell's palsy allergic and temporary? | 20:10 |
| LjL | the allergy thing is unrelated | 20:10 |
| Chico | The numbers are scaring in my opinion. | 20:10 |
| Chico | Ah okay. What about temporary? | 20:10 |
| LjL | de-facto, it's the onus of the ones who made the trial. just as you're always very strict that the protocols used in the trials, that goes in this case too: if a category of people was excluded from the trial, then that category should be excluded from the vaccine. if that's stupid, well, then the trial was made stupidly. | 20:11 |
| Chico | I agree, same goes for the old people- | 20:11 |
| LjL | Chico, according to Wikipedia, Bell's palsy leaves some degree permanent damage in about 30% of cases. in the case of these vaccines, when the studies were published, some of the participants who had had Bell's palsy had not yet recovered. | 20:11 |
| de-facto | LjL, yes i agree we need to get more data for that frail cohort to better understand the impact from the vaccine on them | 20:12 |
| Chico | LjL sounds somewhat scary then. | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: >>do you have the code?<< mompls | 20:12 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, ? | 20:12 |
| de-facto | what i meant is that we should not make the mistake to assume the mRNA vaccines could have fatal outcome for the vast majority of population, they easily will deal with the temporary side effects such as headache, fever or fatigue and be happy about having decided for it by gaining immunity against symptomatic covid infection | 20:13 |
| LjL | Chico, well consider that you *will* get COVID eventually (especially with these more infectious variants) unless you get a vaccine. if the numbers from the study i posted are valid, then you will have just short of 50% chance of long-term, possibly permanent, effects from COVID. that's a lot more than the cases of Bell's palsy. | 20:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: UK sees record deaths as virus variants deepen global concern: The world received more frightening reminders of the pandemic's worsening danger Tuesday as Britain's daily death toll reached a record, Germany looked set to tighten its partial lockdown and two Australian Open players tested positive. → https://is.gd/JHmS4V | 20:13 |
| Chico | That's true. Yet it would feel different to have Bells Palsy due to a medical flaw instead of damage from a disease. It's more a psychological matter though. | 20:14 |
| LjL | Chico, also i should mention that officially, Bell's palsy is not yet a *recognized* adverse reaction from the vaccine. agencies are "monitoring" for it, but they are still saying that the amount of cases observed falls within the natural amount. | 20:14 |
| de-facto | Bells Palsy is very very rare also in the cohort of vaccinates its WAY way less than 0.5% | 20:14 |
| LjL | wikipedia says "It occurs in 1 to 4 per 10,000 people per year.[2]" so you can make your own estimates from what's in the studies | 20:14 |
| Chico | How many people are vaccinated in total? | 20:14 |
| Chico | It could be natural occurrence? | 20:15 |
| LjL | de-facto, i remember 4 cases in a cohort of 2000, but i'll look again. i did mention the number wasn't accurate though. | 20:15 |
| de-facto | Chico, https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations | 20:15 |
| LjL | Chico, yes it could be | 20:15 |
| Chico | How many side effects are there to other vaccines? Like MMR or something, compared to the RNA? | 20:15 |
| LjL | Chico, now there have been cases of Bell's palsy after the vaccine in Israel. but Israel has vaccinated so many people, you'd expect some. i haven't looked at the numbers. i think it's 13 cases out of... 30% of the population of Israel? | 20:15 |
| de-facto | 41.39 million people | 20:15 |
| de-facto | got at least one dose worldwide | 20:16 |
| Haley[m] | %cases France | 20:16 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +34291 cases (now 2.4 million), +404 deaths (now 54173) since a day ago | 20:16 |
| Brainstorm | Haley[m]: In France, there have been 2.9 million confirmed cases (4.4% of the population) and 70686 deaths (2.4% of cases) as of 12 hours ago. 40.2 million tests were performed (7.3% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=France for time series data. | 20:16 |
| Chico | Thanks for the site. | 20:16 |
| Chico | 41 million is a lot for very few side effects. | 20:16 |
| Chico | Do you guys think covid related lockdowns will end in 2021? | 20:17 |
| de-facto | we will read a lot of stories about side effects, just because so many people will get vaccinated, the real question though is: how often does it happen relatively to the number of vaccinations and is that statistically significantly raised relative to the occurrence in unvaccinated people? | 20:18 |
| LjL | lol, "Bell’s palsy occurred in the vaccine group (3 participants [<0.1%]) and the placebo group (1 participant [<0.1%])" very useful percentage there from Moderna | 20:22 |
| whytek | LjL, what do you mean that Italy's curve has flattened? You mean the number of doses being administered has flattened? | 20:23 |
| LjL | whytek, yes, it has reduced so much that the cumulative curve looks flat now | 20:23 |
| whytek | It flat for the last 24 hrs | 20:23 |
| LjL | whytek, it's kinda flat for the 3-4 days before too. i don't mean *entirely* flat | 20:23 |
| whytek | OK | 20:23 |
| LjL | i mean the pace is going down visibly | 20:23 |
| whytek | So that means the first roll out, medical "front-line" etc is done | 20:24 |
| whytek | ? | 20:24 |
| LjL | i don't think it is | 20:24 |
| LjL | in fact i know it isn't, my doctor is still in line | 20:24 |
| whytek | Maybe they just reached a maxiumum daily possibility | 20:24 |
| whytek | It's not going DOWN | 20:24 |
| whytek | which would be what yo don't what to see, right? | 20:24 |
| LjL | it can't be going down, it's cumulative... | 20:24 |
| whytek | ah | 20:25 |
| whytek | right soory. | 20:25 |
| whytek | doh. | 20:25 |
| de-facto | PEI does address Bells palsy in their statistics collection, but have no evidence or hint for it occuring from vaccinations https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/dossier/coronavirus/coronavirus-inhalt.html?nn=169730&cms_pos=5 | 20:25 |
| whytek | oops that means no doses administered in the last 24 hrz | 20:25 |
| LjL | whytek, if you look at the non-cumulative then *yes* it's going down https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations#daily-number-of-covid-19-vaccinations-administered-per-100-people | 20:25 |
| de-facto | so its good they have it on their radar, but i would not worry about it unless they find that the probability would be raised by vaccination (and they did *not* find that) | 20:25 |
| whytek | I see there's a NEW per day" option | 20:26 |
| whytek | LjL, I see it... | 20:26 |
| whytek | thnx | 20:26 |
| whytek | Looks at bit like bitcoin... :-/ | 20:26 |
| LjL | de-facto, what's Bell's palsy in German? | 20:26 |
| LjL | whytek, eeep, how low has it gone? i was meaning to sell the few i have :P | 20:27 |
| LjL | i mean, while it was high | 20:27 |
| de-facto | LjL, afaik Pfizer do a rebuild of their BNT162b2 production facilities in Belgium Puur hence they might have delayed their shipments as price for having more future production capability there | 20:27 |
| de-facto | so maybe thats related to the curve flattening (hopefully only temporarily) | 20:27 |
| LjL | de-facto, but other countries don't look like they're going down like Italy is | 20:27 |
| de-facto | LjL, Bells Palsy in german is Fazialisparese i think | 20:27 |
| LjL | France is going up, Germany is more or less static | 20:28 |
| de-facto | LjL, it may be related to what they have in their storage or such? | 20:28 |
| de-facto | (just speculating) | 20:28 |
| whytek | LjL, Are you serious about the BTC? | 20:28 |
| LjL | whytek, yeah...? | 20:29 |
| de-facto | maybe Italy was very good in using fast what they got delivered? afaik they pulled ahead of Germany for example | 20:29 |
| LjL | i have a residual amount that is not so residual anymore given how high they went | 20:29 |
| LjL | de-facto, that's true, they were one of the EU countries doing it quicker (no comparison to UK of course) | 20:29 |
| whytek | Oh, well it's still swinging around the €30k mark... | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: was difficult to find it again, but.. here you are :-D https://www.3mdeutschland.de/3M/de_DE/unternehmen-de/produkte/~/3M-Aura-Atemschutzmaske-1883-FFP3-mit-abgedecktem-Ausatemventil/?N=5002385+3292307801&rt=rud | 20:29 |
| whytek | hasn't bombed yet | 20:29 |
| LjL | %addpoint DocScrutinizer05 | 20:30 |
| Brainstorm | docscrutinizer05: +1/-0, 1 | 20:30 |
| LjL | whytek, yup, so it seems. i can procrastinate somewhat longer until it's too late! | 20:30 |
| whytek | Hard to call if you really hold BTC.. of course all the bitcoiners are saying 100,000 ATH this year... other say 500,000 blah blah (of course they would say that) | 20:30 |
| de-facto | self fullfilling prophecy | 20:31 |
| LjL | whytek, i might sell half, keep the other half | 20:31 |
| LjL | that's what i was thinking of doing | 20:31 |
| LjL | it's not a life-changing amount, in fact it was originally just a tiny portion i didn't sell | 20:31 |
| whytek | LjL, this is a bit off-topic, but I can say I've played on some of the trading sites during lockdown - I don't hold any thing significant, I just re-invested what I bought a long time ago | 20:32 |
| LjL | whytek, i've never really used them as a "gambling" thing. originally i bought €30 worth of bitcoin to donate to F-Droid apps, i gave 50 cents to each (roughly), and then i still had a small amount left | 20:33 |
| LjL | now that amount might buy me... actually i don't know what, perhaps a computer :P | 20:33 |
| whytek | You could do that.. you could always sell and if it bombs, well buy back at 15k or 10k.. or whatever. | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | .tr <de Die 3M™ Aura™ Atemschutzmaske 1883+ mit Zwei Wege Atemschutz ist eine partikelfiltrierende Halbmaske, die zusätzlich ein speziell entwickeltes abgedecktes 3M™ Cool Flow™ Ausatemventil besitzt. Durch das Ausatemventil werden sowohl die Wärmebildung unter der Maske und der Atemwiderstand reduziert, als auch die Umgebung vor ausgeatmeten Aerosolen geschützt. | 20:33 |
| Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05, German to English: The 3M™ Aura™ Respirator 1883+ with Two Ways Respiratory Protection is a particle-filtering half-mask that also has a specially designed covered 3M™ Cool Flow™ exhalation valve. The exhalation valve reduces heat formation under the mask and respiratory resistance, as well as protects the environment from exhaled aerosols. (MyMemory) [... want %more?] | 20:33 |
| LjL | also they're not stored anywhere on my LAN so please don't hack me :D | 20:33 |
| whytek | if it goes up, well.. you lost out. but you have your computer :) | 20:33 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, it does look like Amazon doesn't have those, either .it or .de (i looked for 1883). not that Amazon is the only thing that exists, just i'm comfortable with their shipping etc | 20:34 |
| whytek | Look, I've got about .5 BTC.. for which I paid pittance.. I thought about selling that years ago thinking that 1,000 euros is better than nothing. | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, this thing is hard to find, in any regard | 20:35 |
| whytek | Actually now that's worth 15,000 | 20:35 |
| LjL | whytek, whew | 20:35 |
| de-facto | well Amazon would be the last place i would look for masks because i assume most people would first look on Amazon, hence their stock probably sold out quickly when demand raises over supply | 20:35 |
| whytek | and IF, (big IF) someday all this crazyness really means that 0,5 BTC is worth €250,000, well I'd feel shit to have sold it for 15,000 | 20:36 |
| whytek | so as they say, if it's not life-changing to sell it, then hodl... or whatever. | 20:36 |
| whytek | ok offtopic BTS rant done... | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.real.de/product/344624769/ | 20:36 |
| whytek | *BTC | 20:36 |
| de-facto | i have had good experience with small (local) online shops that already sold working protection equipment before the pandemic | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | .tr <de :-/ Dieses Produkt ist zurzeit leider nicht verfügbar. | 20:37 |
| Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05, German to -/: | 20:37 |
| LjL | lol | 20:37 |
| LjL | it's okay, i understood | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://b-safety24.com/3m-aura-atemschutzmaske-1883-ffp3-mit-abgedecktem-ventil.html | 20:38 |
| LjL | de-facto, uhm... i don't, but also, i think those shops cannot legally be open right now :| | 20:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virological.org: Latest posts: @vborges Vítor Borges: Tracking SARS-CoV-2 VOC 202012/01 (lineage B.1.1.7) dissemination in Portugal: insights from nationwide RT-PCR Spike gene drop out data → https://is.gd/7YnBzH | 20:38 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, that's not bad, at least not practically more expensive than the ones without the cover | 20:39 |
| de-facto | LjL, i mean online shops from local working protection suppliers | 20:39 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, i found https://www.distrelec.it/it/respiratore-antiparticolato-tipo-iir-aura-ffp3-pacco-da-pezzi-3m-1883/p/30122564 where the price would also be reasonable but... currently not available | 20:39 |
| LjL | oh they would be coming from the UK, good luck with that | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as I said: hard to find in any regard | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but they dropped price massively, I seen them for ... 25€? | 20:41 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, that shop you linked though has a number of masks that look way better than the KN95 ones we can buy at the pharmacy. like, most of them look better, like they'd have a tighter fit... just from the pictures, anyway. only it's €9.50 to ship to the EU | 20:42 |
| LjL | well, of course by "has" i mean... currently doesn't have ;( | 20:43 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +488 deaths (now 70952) since 23 hours ago | 20:43 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, how is that regulation in Bavaria, are FFP2 masks with valves accepted? | 20:46 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, https://www.stethoscoop-centrum.nl/de/3m-aura-1873-atemmaske-ffp3-p-20824.html | 20:46 |
| LjL | these are nominally available. shipping is around 6 euro | 20:47 |
| LjL | i have no idea if the selling site is reliable, though | 20:47 |
| LjL | trustpilot says yes, if that means anything | 20:48 |
| LjL | i'm confused though, they should be listed here https://www.stethoscoop-centrum.nl/de/gesichtsmasken-c-961.html but they aren't | 20:50 |
| LjL | i'm confused for real. that was supposed to be 1883+. i coould swear the picture was 1883+. now it's not. | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: I have no faintest idea. Seems it's impossible to find authoritative info | 20:52 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, https://www.real.de/product/333525891/?utm_source=idealo&utm_medium=cpc&utm_content=de_01&utm_campaign=pricecomparison&utm_term=29500 <-- there you go 8 pcs for 295 € hence 36€ per disposable mask LMAO | 20:53 |
| LjL | urgh | 20:54 |
| de-facto | btw its a private shop, real is a bit like amazon or ebay or such, many small private shops on there too | 20:55 |
| LjL | better to buy the plastic respirators dTal likes at that point | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lol | 20:55 |
| LjL | even though they look like you're our of a horror movie | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wasn't aware | 20:55 |
| dTal | I've been considering wrapping one in a nylon stocking | 20:56 |
| dTal | That would make it look more or less like one of those cycling masks | 20:56 |
| dTal | (also they're mostly silicone, not plastic) | 20:56 |
| LjL | by the way, aside from reusable respirators, have any of the masks you've used had a cord that went twice around your head (one loop around the top of your head and one around your neck) instead of around the ears? | 20:58 |
| LjL | the first ones we bought were like that, then all subsequent ones were around-the-ear types | 20:59 |
| de-facto | yes my FFP3 have exactly that, one cord around the neck (below the ears) and the other around the back of the head (above the ears) | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: yes, the Draeger I use right now do exactly this | 20:59 |
| de-facto | much more comfy because it does not pull on the ears and instead is fixed to the head | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Draeger X-plore 1730 | 21:00 |
| de-facto | idk maybe a little problem for women with long hairs? (the cord around the neck i mean | 21:01 |
| de-facto | ) | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which was best I could find available for me, that wasn't paypal or moneytransfer | 21:01 |
| LjL | amazon.de has some Dräger (not that one), amazon.it doesn't. but i already need to make a purchase from amazon.de, so i pay shipping anyway, so if there's something interesting there, i can go for it | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | weird detail: I find it most comfortable and best fit when wearing both rubberband in parallel ~30° upward around head, no neck band | 21:02 |
| LjL | it's more individually adjustable than the ear loops for sure | 21:03 |
| LjL | not sure about long hair | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, prolly Draeger is the next best thing after 3M | 21:04 |
| de-facto | the thing is: for tight fit of such FFP masks the rubber bands would have to be somewhat tightened and id assume that becomes quite painful after some time pulling from behind the ears, so either those cant stay longer time or their fit is not really airtight | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually 3M is mainly disposable stuff and scotchtape ;-) Draeger always been lab equipment | 21:05 |
| LjL | prices on amazon.de are ridiculous for both ffp2 and ffp3 :( | 21:06 |
| LjL | 3M FFP2 for €9 or so | 21:06 |
| LjL | or this thing https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Disposable-Protective-Filtration-Without-Breathing/dp/B08HQT8F69/ for almost 10 | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: I already seen "plastic ears" - a tab of plastic to go around back of head and have latches on both ends to attacj the ear rubber bands to it | 21:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Malawi: +853 cases (now 13880), +15 deaths (now 336) since 19 hours ago — Monaco: +28 cases (now 1240), +2 deaths (now 9) since 17 hours ago — Netherlands: +4467 cases (now 924460) since 23 hours ago | 21:08 |
| LjL | this pack of 5 https://www.amazon.de/-/en/9320-SP-Unvalved-Disposable-Respirator/dp/B00D04BJ8U/ goes back to the "standard" €7.50, although it gets away by not having "FFP2" in the title or short description, otherwise i bet it'd be out of stock | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, I wanted to drop a factoid: B1.1.7 new refined estimation for "improvement factor": down from "40-70%" to "pretty much 35%" | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gosh, stopping smoking drives me sorta nuts | 21:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: US passes 400,000 deaths from COVID-19: More than 400,000 people have died from COVID-19 in the United States since the pandemic began, according to Johns Hopkins University on Tuesday, the eve of the presidential inauguration of Joe Biden, who has made the fight against the coronavirus a priority of his first term. → https://is.gd/scFEg6 | 21:16 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid: UK records new daily high of 1,610 deaths: The total number of deaths within 28 days of a positive test during the pandemic is now above 90,000. → https://is.gd/hdRByZ | 21:28 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, who did that refinement? | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: https://www.arbeitsschutz-express.de/de/atemschutzmaske-3m-aura1883 16,65€ >>Liefertermin: Auf Grund der Epidemie-Ausnahmesituation noch nicht durch den Hersteller bestätigt<< | 21:32 |
| LjL | %tr <de Liefertermin: Auf Grund der Epidemie-Ausnahmesituation noch nicht durch den Hersteller bestätigt | 21:33 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, German to English: Delivery date: Not yet confirmed by the manufacturer due to the exceptional epidemic situation (Google) — Date of delivery: At reason the epidemic's-*Ausnahmesituation not yet through the maker confirmed (Apertium) | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: Drosten mentioned it, there's some new study. As usual the links to those studies will be available tomorrow the earliest | 21:33 |
| LjL | in theory the bot spouts all the new preprints from preVIEW | 21:34 |
| LjL | but in practice they update once a day, which would mean the bot spits out a ton of them only once per day | 21:34 |
| LjL | i actually implemented the functionality before realizing they only updated daily | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the new study is based on "random tests" not "test on symptoms" AIUI | 21:39 |
| LjL | we'll see what it says | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Drosten said it's difficult to get real numbers, but it seems it's more like 35% than 40-70% but it depends a lot on where you look at | 21:40 |
| LjL | well, 35% is already a change over "we don't really have evidence it infects more" | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the really important finding is: it IS more infectious | 21:41 |
| LjL | jinxed :P | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OOOOh MUTTI is talking | 21:42 |
| LjL | that's a brand of tomatoes to me | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 4:45 late | 21:42 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, congratz to the decision to stop smoking | 21:45 |
| de-facto | stay with it, it really is worth it | 21:45 |
| LjL | yes | 21:47 |
| LjL | in money if nothing else | 21:47 |
| de-facto | i stopped ~300 days ago, i feel better with it | 21:48 |
| de-facto | well i mean without smoking i feel better | 21:48 |
| LjL | i stopped 7-8 years ago, i must admit sometimes i still get random cravings | 21:48 |
| de-facto | yeah me too but in general i feel healthier and also enjoy food more (i think i can taste and smell more) | 21:49 |
| LjL | many people notice that. didn't happen to me | 21:50 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, dont worry the moods will be the first problem that goes away, its only a few days | 21:50 |
| LjL | i'm living a very secluded life. i think if i went to a pub with friends again or something, i would very easily fall into the trap of smoking one... and then i'd smoke one thousand | 21:50 |
| LjL | concentrate on something else a lot for the first few days | 21:50 |
| de-facto | i did that mistake, stopped for 2 years then thought i could "smoke only one", well i ended up smoking a few more years for that | 21:51 |
| de-facto | GIGANTIC mistake | 21:51 |
| LjL | same here | 21:51 |
| LjL | i lasted 2 years the first time too | 21:51 |
| LjL | but you know, even if you KNOW that happens, after you've had a bit of alcohol your judgment can lapse | 21:51 |
| de-facto | now i wont touch them anymore (but i still have them in my drawer) just to prove to myself that i can resist them | 21:52 |
| gigasu_shida | https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3755714 | 21:53 |
| de-facto | the longer i stay clean from smoking the more important it is to me to not do that stupid mistake again to start with it | 21:54 |
| de-facto | interesting paper, seems it reflects the differences in cultures for social bubbles in terms of demographics | 22:00 |
| gigasu_shida | i noticed all the grocery stores have senior hours | 22:00 |
| gigasu_shida | so basically the paper suggests we shouldn't have senior hours for people of a certain age | 22:00 |
| gigasu_shida | or am i wrong? | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | to be honest I went down from 30 to 6 yesterday, today I'm at 3 | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I thought 2nd day gets harder but no | 22:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it feels great to look at the paper where I write down each time | 22:03 |
| gigasu_shida | "We found that the number of social contacts with people over 65 years old correlates positively | 22:04 |
| gigasu_shida | and significantly with COVID-19 case growth speed (Fig. 1). Surprisingly, the average number | 22:04 |
| gigasu_shida | of social contacts across all age ranges correlates negatively and significantly with COVID-19 | 22:04 |
| gigasu_shida | 20 case growth speed" | 22:04 |
| gigasu_shida | oops sorry | 22:04 |
| de-facto | ramping down is good, but just go for it and quit with it, as far as i remember it was not so hard to stop (physically), to me it was hard to get rid of that bad habit (psychologically), maybe try to temporarily replace it with some other activity (not smoking or vaping of course), and do not go with those nicotine replacement stuff, it only prolongs the time for which the receptors still are over-represented in the brain (them being not | 22:05 |
| de-facto | stimulated by nicotine anymore will ramp their number down to normal levels though and then you are not addicted anymore in a physical meaning) | 22:05 |
| gigasu_shida | "If verified, these results suggest that isolation and social distancing measures may be effective only with the population older than 65 years old that is most susceptible to COVID-19" | 22:05 |
| de-facto | "To test this, we correlate the number of contacts of younger people to those of older people, and find a significant negative correlation, as predicted by the Social Antagonist Hypothesis. We then find this negative correlation is due to a negative correlation between young-to-young contact counts and young to-old ones." | 22:07 |
| gigasu_shida | "To examine this in more detail, we broke up those interactions into component parts. We found 30 that young (<65 years old) to young interactions are negatively correlated with young to old (>65 years old) interactions, consistent with the Social Antagonist Hypothesis: where young people keep other young people busy, young people have less time to interact with older people (and get them sick)" | 22:09 |
| gigasu_shida | i guess this would be a reason to keep schools open, however we are seeing more multigenerational households here where grandparents live with grandkids | 22:10 |
| de-facto | well maybe also related to character or type of person, social circles between same age and elderly being mutually exclusive to some degree? | 22:11 |
| gigasu_shida | i guess italy really has a lot of "active grandparents" | 22:11 |
| de-facto | yeah thats an important point how families live together | 22:11 |
| de-facto | i havent seen my parents for years in person | 22:12 |
| LjL | de-facto, one sad thing i remember reading about once (no citation available, was long ago) was that nicotine receptors never seem to go back to their initial amounts, but stay overrepresented, at least to some extent. that may be why even just smoking one cigarette makes one fall into the loop again... | 22:12 |
| gigasu_shida | yeah it seems like the case de-facto | 22:12 |
| LjL | there are some countries where after children reach 18-25 or so, it's kind of expected that they'll only see parents sporadically... others where it's normal to live with them and see them often thereafter | 22:13 |
| de-facto | yes id guess there are big cultural differences in how households and social bubbles are structures in demographic terms | 22:13 |
| de-facto | and also if one can afford not to share one house etc | 22:14 |
| gigasu_shida | "Data from the SARS outbreak in mainland China, Hong Kong, and Singapore suggest that school closures did not contribute to the control of the epidemic" , unfortunately i think the SARS2003 sample set is just too small to draw conclusions from | 22:15 |
| de-facto | LjL, one thing i remember from stopping smoking was that i previously thought that i feel quite well and did not expect much change to that, but after having stopped for some time i just felt much more energetic or healthier compared to before | 22:16 |
| LjL | i can't say the same :( | 22:16 |
| LjL | i'm happy to have quit, but the only thing that has changed is that i'm not smoking and spending the money for it | 22:16 |
| gigasu_shida | however i have seen some papers that say young adults are more likely to be superspreaders | 22:20 |
| gigasu_shida | in any case the average spreading ability among >65yo may be greater than the avg spreading ability among 20-40yo. | 22:21 |
| gigasu_shida | and the avg susceptibility is clearly higher among >65yo | 22:21 |
| de-facto | yeah the immune system reaction also is different for different age groups | 22:23 |
| de-facto | probably also the nature of contacts is | 22:23 |
| de-facto | like the activity or environment or group size etc | 22:23 |
| de-facto | LjL, also my blood oxygen level went up a bit, even after months, previously was often below 95, then stayed around 96-97 now quite often is 98-99, i have never seen 99 before | 22:25 |
| de-facto | so it seems did not stop to be beneficial to having quit with that stupid smoking | 22:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Israel extends COVID lockdown despite vaccination drive: The Israeli government decided Tuesday to extend the country's coronavirus lockdown to the end of the month after a spike in infections, despite an intensive vaccination campaign. → https://is.gd/QN9aKs | 22:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>i think the SARS2003 sample set is just too small to draw conclusions from<< yes, definitely | 22:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>the average spreading ability among >65yo may be greater<< how's that? | 22:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Policy: Florida police arrest former state COVID-19 data manager Rebekah Jones → https://is.gd/nXPMRD | 22:55 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nw6s1p71y8Q "Corona-Gipfel: Merkel, Söder und Müller zu weiteren Corona-Maßnahmen am 19.01.21" <-- Merkel earlier today in German language | 23:03 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.youtube.com: Corona-Gipfel: Merkel, Söder und Müller zu weiteren Corona-Maßnahmen am 19.01.21 - YouTube | 23:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from FDA Press Releases: FDA: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: January 19, 2021 → https://is.gd/7fONiQ | 23:08 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/aktuelles/videoschaltkonferenz-der-bundeskanzlerin-mit-den-regierungschefinnen-und-regierungschefs-der-laender-am-19-januar-2021-1841020 | 23:08 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.bundesregierung.de: Videoschaltkonferenz der Bundeskanzlerin mit den Regierungschefinnen und Regierungschefs der Länder am 19. Januar 2021 | 23:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wait! when I hire a few friends then we can meet either at my flat or at any of theirs, at any time of day. Right? RIGHT? | 23:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and, even better, we can walk there and back home from there at any time | 23:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: US passes 400,000 virus deaths as Europe faces surge: More than 400,000 people have now died from coronavirus in the United States, figures showed Tuesday, as some European nations battled record surges in daily fatalities with the fear of new strains taking hold. → https://is.gd/OwTcjF | 23:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: ^^^ >>Deshalb werden die Länder – wo notwendig – die personellen Kapazitäten der Gesundheitsämter jetzt so verstärken, dass eine Kontaktnachverfolgung mindestens bis zu einer 7-Tages-Inzidenz von 50 Neuinfektionen pro 100.000 Einwohner flächendeckend gewährleistet werden kann<< TF?! wasn't that a decision/regulation they already had a at least 6 months ago? | 23:22 |
| de-facto | oho interesting Merkel mentioned that we have to work together synchronously in Europe to prevent transmission and also the new variants, hence it is important to coordinate and observe the activity of neighboring countries so the effort the citizens invest into containment is not jeopardized by import from other countries | 23:23 |
| de-facto | well that might be a friendly way of saying we would have to close the borders to countries unable to contain new variants | 23:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 23:23 |
| de-facto | DocScrutinizer05, well obviously the contact tracing cap was/is not nearly sufficient, hence its good they put effort into improving that | 23:24 |
| gigasu_shida | der Gesundheitsämter = the medical authorities | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, just it sounds like a _new_ thing, yet I'm absolutely sure they had the exactly same statement morwe than half a year ago already | 23:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | public health department | 23:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | .tr <de Deshalb werden die Länder – wo notwendig – die personellen Kapazitäten der Gesundheitsämter jetzt so verstärken, dass eine Kontaktnachverfolgung mindestens bis zu einer 7-Tages-Inzidenz von 50 Neuinfektionen pro 100.000 Einwohner flächendeckend gewährleistet werden kann | 23:27 |
| Brainstorm | DocScrutinizer05, German to English: For this reason, the federal states will - where necessary - increase the personnel capacities of the health authorities so that contact tracking can be guaranteed across the board at least up to a 7-day incidence of 50 new infections per 100,000 inhabitants (Google) [... want %more?] | 23:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually this been the root rationale for that 50/100k7d incidences threshold which then seems to have spread across all europe | 23:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and literally the only argument to pick 50 and not 35 or 7 or 300 | 23:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: 400 Lights, For 400,000 Dead, To Illuminate Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool: "Sharing grief brings people together," says historian Micki McElya. The ceremony in Washington, D.C., Tuesday is the most prominent memorial so far to the victims of COVID-19. → https://is.gd/cr9eu1 | 23:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they looked at the healt departments and said "well, seems most of those are capable of a ~50 at least. Those that aren't will get additional manpower to reach that level" | 23:33 |
| LjL | de-facto: ah well I didn't even know what a pulse oximeter was when I stopped smoking I think | 23:38 |
| de-facto | me neither but i stopped after the pandemic started | 23:42 |
| de-facto | .title https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-details/statement-european-upscaling-well-impact-deliveries | 23:57 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From investors.biontech.de: Statement on European Upscaling as well as Impact on Deliveries | BioNTech | 23:57 |
| de-facto | "...facility in Puurs, Belgium will experience a temporary reduction in the number of doses delivered in the upcoming week. We will be back to the original schedule of deliveries to the European Union beginning the week of January 25, with increased delivery beginning the week of February 15 resulting in our ability to deliver the fully committed quantity of vaccine doses in the first quarter and significantly more in the second quarter. " | 23:58 |
| de-facto | note published on 2020-01-15 | 23:58 |
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