DocScrutinizer05 | moin! what's the news of the day? | 00:11 |
---|---|---|
LjL | DocScrutinizer05: AstraZeneca will give the EU -60% vaccines in the first quarter, unless you already heard of that yesterday | 00:16 |
DocScrutinizer05 | AZ allegedly has troubles with one of the suppliers of basic matwerial | 00:16 |
LjL | Also Portugal is spiking and based on the distribution of nextstrain sequences, it makes sense in that they have a lot of UK variant | 00:16 |
DocScrutinizer05 | so yes, they announced a 60% cut | 00:16 |
DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: oh, thanks for the latter, completely missed that | 00:17 |
LjL | de-facto said he heard in Tagesschau that, somehow, the AZ shortages will affect the EU but not the UK | 00:17 |
DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 00:17 |
LjL | there's a lot of allegations of vaccine manufacturers prioritizing the countries that paid more for it | 00:17 |
LjL | So maybe the fact the EU "got good deals" when contracting as a block is kinda backfiring | 00:18 |
DocScrutinizer05 | possible, such contracts are complex and this could be one of the pitfalls | 00:18 |
DocScrutinizer05 | also while Bolsonaro is a jackass, when he said >>when you turn into a crocodile, nobody cares<< was pretty much to the point. They didn't negotiate liability for side effects with manufs, unlike EU | 00:22 |
DocScrutinizer05 | media twisted that into a >>Bolsonaro said: vaccination will turn you into a crocodile<< which is also BS | 00:23 |
DocScrutinizer05 | people forgot how to discuss a topic in a reasonable manner | 00:26 |
LjL | DocScrutinizer05: so wait, do you mean the EU makes manufacturers liable, or that it doesn't? (What I knew was that it did, unlike for example the US, but that was in general, I don't know how the COVID negotiations ended up shaping the situation) | 00:38 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: European countries are growing increasingly frustrated with delays in the delivery of COVID-19 vaccinations. Pharmaceutical company AstraZeneca told EU officials that production problems will result in a 60% cut in deliveries of its Oxford vaccine to the bloc during the first quarter of this year. → https://is.gd/COxZqk | 00:57 |
gigasu_shida | lol DocScrutinizer05 | 00:58 |
DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: I think EU negotiated full liability with/at the manufs | 01:24 |
LjL | DocScrutinizer05, that's what i thought they were bound to do as well, since i read it was an EUCJ ruling that established manufacturer liability, so in theory they can't just override that | 01:24 |
DocScrutinizer05 | I don't kniow details. I heard it been a topic of negotiations in several countries and the EU has manufs liable contracts | 01:26 |
DocScrutinizer05 | my point actually just was: contracts are a lot more complex than I originally thought for a short first moment | 01:27 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: The U.K. variant of COVID-19 is behind a devastating outbreak that has torn through an Ontario long-term care home, killing 32 and infecting all but two residents. 84 workers have become sick. → https://is.gd/8Pus5f | 01:35 |
DocScrutinizer05 | so, a >>the AZ shortages will affect the EU but not the UK<< might wellbe one of the results of that complexity | 01:51 |
LjL | DocScrutinizer05, de-facto: https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/l3ea9e/autumn_covid19_surge_dates_in_europe_correlated/gken4j6/ (the comment, not [just] the study! ;) | 01:54 |
LjL | there are also a bunch of critical comments that seem to make good points | 01:57 |
LjL | (why only northern hemisphere; why only 18 countries; what about Arizona and Florida; what if it has nothing to do with vitamin D but everything to do with UV killing the virus in air) | 01:57 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Nigeria: +2464 cases (now 120602), +12 deaths (now 1502) since a day ago — France: +17801 cases (now 3.1 million), +230 deaths (now 72877) since 23 hours ago — Barbados: +144 cases (now 1341) since 9 hours ago — Netherlands: +4174 cases (now 947908), +66 deaths (now 13519) since 23 hours ago | 02:34 |
DocScrutinizer05 | >>It is more likely this correlation is primarily UV inactivating the virus somehow.<< hmm, I seem to recall I said pretty much same thing | 02:49 |
dTal | If that panned out as an explanation, I would feel really stupid for not even suspecting that *highly obvious* correlation | 02:56 |
LjL | well it's been brought up before | 02:57 |
LjL | it's plausible, but other things are plausible too | 02:57 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Australia's child vaccination rates exceed 95 per cent target → https://is.gd/a1cuEX | 03:00 |
p1gasssu | seems like temperature checks aren't very helpful, smell test would be better | 03:32 |
iz | i think fever is still better, percentage-wise; https://healthnewshub.org/the-top-7-covid-19-symptoms-ranked/ | 03:39 |
p1gasssu | yes but seems those are for those with symptoms, doesn't mention smell ? | 03:46 |
LjL | well it's definitely less than 83-99% for anosmia, though | 03:47 |
p1gasssu | sorry I see they added smell, but was reading this https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/20/world/stinky-strips-of-paper-could-in-theory-help-drive-down-virus-transmission.html | 03:47 |
LjL | but it's tricky because if articles like that were written before it was recognized that anosmia was a frequently ignored symptom... it's looking only at the non-anosmic portion of the people with symptoms | 03:47 |
LjL | skewing all the numbers | 03:47 |
p1gasssu | Studies have found that about 50 to 90 percent of people who test positive for the coronavirus experience some degree of measurable smell loss, | 03:48 |
LjL | that's a large range | 03:49 |
p1gasssu | In contrast, only a minority of people with Covid-19 end up spiking a temperature. Fevers also tend to be fleeting, while anosmia can linger for days. | 03:49 |
LjL | oh anosmia can linger for...ever | 03:49 |
LjL | or at least, there are people who have "recovered" since months but still have it to some extent | 03:49 |
p1gasssu | yes, have read about those cases | 03:50 |
LjL | how would you devise an anosmia test, anyway? you need to take into account people lying, because these tests are usually done to screen people who *want* to travel by air or similar things | 03:50 |
LjL | i guess you'd have to have them smell something, and guess what it is | 03:50 |
LjL | but smells are hard to describe even for people with no anosmia | 03:51 |
p1gasssu | have a look @ the Jan 20 nyt write up, if interested , fever screens are used in a lot of places now , schools hospitals restaurants | 03:51 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Togo: +91 cases (now 4636) since a day ago | 03:55 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Quebec researchers say they have found an effective drug to fight COVID-19 → https://is.gd/GTUMjK | 04:22 |
LjL | p1gasssu, if it covers different categories of smells and tackles the issue of people being able to lie, it may be a decent tool | 04:22 |
Brainstorm | Updates for New Zealand: +7 cases (now 2283) since a day ago | 04:26 |
de-facto | .title https://www.icm-mhi.org/en/pressroom/news/colchicine-reduces-risk-covid-19-related-complications | 04:40 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.icm-mhi.org: Colchicine reduces the risk of COVID-19-related complications | Montreal Heart Institute | 04:40 |
bittersweetsymph | what does the [m] mean after people's names? | 04:41 |
raccoon_dog | bittersweetsymph: They're using Matrix. https://matrix.org/ | 04:42 |
bittersweetsymph | oh thanks raccoon_dog :) | 04:42 |
raccoon_dog | Cheers. | 04:43 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Positive community COVID-19 case in New Zealand → https://is.gd/3vHbTl | 04:46 |
de-facto | .title https://www.drugs.com/pro/colchicine.html | 05:09 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.drugs.com: Colchicine - FDA prescribing information, side effects and uses | 05:09 |
de-facto | quite interesting substance but also a bit worrisome with its mitosis inhibition leading to damaged cells | 05:10 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: New Zealand health officials probe probable community COVID-19 case → https://is.gd/EQsmEU | 05:10 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Russia’s Sputnik vaccine close to approval for use in Pakistan → https://is.gd/Zl7oZZ | 05:23 |
bittersweetsymph | What are people's opinions on how each vaccines would rank against each other. Not sure if I should think about it because whenever one finally becomes available i might have little choice over which one i get anyway | 05:27 |
bittersweetsymph | I think I will probably be given the option eventually to get astra-zenica which apparently might only be 62% effective well I heard a range of 62-90% | 05:27 |
bittersweetsymph | We will see...however I also heard that some scientists are concerned it might not actually protect against the South African strain | 05:31 |
LjL | that may be true of any vaccine | 05:31 |
LjL | currently, i would want to see better numbers and a better-run trial before just taking AstraZeneca | 05:32 |
LjL | although if i knew i had no alternative (i won't be offered Pfizer or Moderna no matter what happens), then taking AZ is probably not going to be vastly harmful | 05:32 |
bittersweetsymph | Some protection is better than none | 05:32 |
bittersweetsymph | any measure is excellent compared to nothing | 05:32 |
LjL | yeah, just, "meh" | 05:32 |
LjL | as you said we'll likely not have the luxury to pick our vaccine | 05:33 |
bittersweetsymph | which country are you in that you will not get those two? | 05:33 |
raccoon_dog | I was going to ask the same. | 05:34 |
bittersweetsymph | not the magic prevention i had hoped for maybe | 05:34 |
LjL | no, it was a hypothetical | 05:34 |
LjL | currently, Pfizer is being used here | 05:34 |
LjL | but i'm definitely not a priority for vaccination, and AZ is cheaper, and i assume AZ and/or J&J and/or even Sanofi will be used for the majority of the population, because they're cheaper and simpler to transport | 05:35 |
raccoon_dog | Are they effective, though? | 05:35 |
LjL | we don't know that yet | 05:35 |
LjL | so far, Sanofi has postponed their set dates because in their trial, people over 55 were not adequately protected | 05:36 |
raccoon_dog | I don't quite follow. Have they not done any trials for any of them yet? | 05:36 |
LjL | so that doesn't send out great vibes | 05:36 |
raccoon_dog | O.O | 05:36 |
LjL | they have done phase 1/2 trials, which are mainly about safety and dosing | 05:36 |
raccoon_dog | Right. | 05:36 |
LjL | phase 3 is about efficacy, and those are currently still ongoing | 05:36 |
raccoon_dog | Yeah. | 05:36 |
LjL | for Janssen, we have some phase 2 information that tells me the side effects are a little uncomfortable | 05:37 |
LjL | (to say the least, but i don't want to trigger de-facto by calling them "severe" :P) | 05:37 |
LjL | so really what we have that is actual, finished, not final but finished in their own right phase 3-based papers are on Pfizer and Moderna, and... some stuff on AZ that isn't too clear | 05:38 |
LjL | but i take it for granted that the other vaccines *will* be used, in some capacity, simply because i don't think the mRNA ones can cover all the people that need to be covered | 05:38 |
LjL | but i'm known to be a pessimist | 05:38 |
raccoon_dog | All I can say is, best of luck. The new administration here is providing a much-needed boost, but I'm surrounded by too many idiots. Some of them are known to not even believe the pandemic to be a real thing. | 05:40 |
LjL | the EU is not doing a good job of actually securing vaccines. vaccination rate in this country is going *down*, and that definitely shouldn't be the long-term trend | 05:44 |
raccoon_dog | o.o | 05:44 |
LjL | and these new variants are honestly all sorts of "concerning" | 05:44 |
de-facto | .title https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32137-1/fulltext | 05:44 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.thelancet.com: The Lancet | The best science for better lives | 05:44 |
raccoon_dog | Yeah. There's apparently a South African variant that purportedly resists immunization in 50% of cases or something. | 05:44 |
de-facto | "SARS-CoV-2 immunity: review and applications to phase 3 vaccine candidate" | 05:45 |
LjL | raccoon_dog, that figure is kinda of drawn from a hat, really. but... they are more infectious, the UK one at least may also be more lethal with semi-decent evidence for it (maybe), and the SA and Brazilian variants do seem to evade some antibodies | 05:47 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Spain military commander forced to resign after jumping line for Covid-19 vaccine → https://is.gd/7C061s | 05:48 |
raccoon_dog | LjL: I see. Yikes. | 05:48 |
LjL | the real amount of those effects isn't really known with any precision, but i'd say at this point it's known they are actual effects | 05:48 |
de-facto | LjL, also heard about it in podcasts, seems the experts also are quite concerned about E484K et al | 05:49 |
LjL | de-facto, more than most of them want to say to the public, apparently | 05:49 |
LjL | i don't have a good feeling. but i never have good feelings so it doesn't count | 05:50 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: Fauci: Single dose vaccine likely only two weeks away from FDA application (10041 votes) | https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/fauci-single-dose-vaccine-likely-only-two-weeks-away-from-fda-application-99904070001 | https://redd.it/l3joeu | 05:50 |
LjL | argh, it's a video | 05:52 |
de-facto | if production capacity is massively scaled up maybe we could have a shorter delay between sequencing and immunity updates by vaccines that include the new variants of concern | 05:52 |
de-facto | but we would need many orders of magnitude more production capacity for such a thing | 05:52 |
LjL | i assume he must be talking about J&J but i need to watch him talk to know | 05:53 |
de-facto | tbh i still dont understand why they would not put wartime priority effort into scaling production, no matter what it costs | 05:53 |
LjL | de-facto, we aren't even meeting the original, modest goals | 05:53 |
de-facto | indeed | 05:53 |
LjL | yes, it's J&J | 05:54 |
de-facto | "one dose" | 05:54 |
gigasu_shida | ljl who is 'we'? | 05:54 |
LjL | gigasu_shida, everyone, really, but... the EU | 05:55 |
gigasu_shida | oh ...yah i see | 05:55 |
raccoon_dog | It also doesn't help that even if production is decent, a significant proportion of the population blatantly refuses to get vaccinated. | 05:56 |
raccoon_dog | That is the situation here. | 05:56 |
de-facto | maybe vaccines would need a "semantic" expiry date according to the S-protein variant that it uses at some point? | 05:56 |
spybert | Darwin award candidates | 05:56 |
python476 | just when I join | 05:57 |
python476 | I feel personally attacked | 05:57 |
python476 | :p | 05:57 |
gigasu_shida | where r u raccoon_dog ? | 05:57 |
python476 | hi | 05:57 |
raccoon_dog | The US. | 05:57 |
gigasu_shida | oh right | 05:57 |
raccoon_dog | LOL | 05:57 |
gigasu_shida | sounds about right | 05:57 |
raccoon_dog | I like how you said "oh right" | 05:57 |
raccoon_dog | The world knows how fucking stupid some of us are. | 05:57 |
raccoon_dog | That depresses me. | 05:57 |
LjL | raccoon_dog, that will be a worry i guess but right now i'm not even thinking much about the anti-vax people. we barely have enough doses to vaccinate some of the few who really need it | 05:57 |
python476 | quebec announced a new molecule (chlocinine ?) that reduced illness gravity | 05:57 |
spybert | Is there much vaccine avoidance outside the US ? | 05:57 |
LjL | yes | 05:58 |
spybert | Just curious | 05:58 |
gigasu_shida | raccoon_dog: a couple months back i said i saw a bunch of people not wearing masks in a karate dojo and everyone immediately knew i was from the US | 05:58 |
LjL | Italy has had outbreaks of measles due to refusal to vaccinate children | 05:58 |
raccoon_dog | gigasu_shida: Yeah ........ | 05:58 |
spybert | Darn, I thought it was just a US thing. Too bad :-( | 05:58 |
de-facto | i wonder how it correlates with usage of social media | 05:59 |
raccoon_dog | LjL: That's true. Though over here that's kind of the norm. Some people refuse to self-isolate. They do not wear masks. If you ask them, politely, to not come close, they get violent and start screaming about "First Amendment" rights. | 05:59 |
python476 | I think we're in a natural cycle .. when people just lost faith in whatever and reject everything | 05:59 |
python476 | 50 years ago people would run to be first in line for a vaccine | 06:00 |
spybert | On the other side of our gated community someone decided to have a kids birthday party. 15+ kids with not a mask in sight. | 06:00 |
spybert | Some people just don't get the message | 06:02 |
LjL | having "gated communities" itself i see as a very american lifestyle that, while probably not the cause, is a symptom of much of what is wrong there | 06:03 |
de-facto | i think there is a lot of sabotage to community success to contain transmission by brainwash from some social media conspiracy theorist influencers | 06:05 |
spybert | LjL: I think it's orthogonal to the other problems. It's a response to the unwillingness of local governments to provide good law enforcement. This is definitely a multi-ethnic community, too. | 06:05 |
raccoon_dog | LjL: Unfortunately, some regions do not have appropriate law enforcement, so it is up to communities to fend for themselves. So, yeah, indeed. | 06:06 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +2583 cases (now 691854), +51 deaths (now 20726) since 23 hours ago | 06:06 |
gigasu_shida | good question de-facto . social media makes people dumber i'm convinced | 06:06 |
LjL | it just makes it easier for dumb people to talk to other dumb people | 06:07 |
gigasu_shida | yeah pretty much, good point | 06:07 |
LjL | it also makes it easier for smart people to talk to other smart people, but it seems like the smart people end up being more divided and argumentative than the dumb ones, lately | 06:07 |
raccoon_dog | I just mostly avoid social media. | 06:08 |
de-facto | its a self amplifying effect, confirmation bias in terms of feeling normal in the cozy semantic topic bubble together with other that follow such groups, imho a gigantic problem of our time | 06:08 |
raccoon_dog | Especially since half of everyone I knew ended up blocking me for political reasons in November. | 06:09 |
LjL | raccoon_dog, i like to say that technically, there's nothing that distinguished IRC from social media, except being born before that term was | 06:09 |
raccoon_dog | Yeah, heh. It's why I did say "mostly." ;) | 06:10 |
raccoon_dog | I avoid the fancy ones -- Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. | 06:10 |
raccoon_dog | That sort of stuff. Feh. | 06:10 |
LjL | i use Twitter a bit because it's essential to my bot's earthquakey stuff | 06:10 |
raccoon_dog | Ah, I see. | 06:11 |
raccoon_dog | I guess there's useful APIs there. | 06:11 |
LjL | yes, although they like to change them with little advance notice, or need | 06:11 |
raccoon_dog | Ugh, yeah. That happens a lot. | 06:11 |
raccoon_dog | So annoying. | 06:11 |
LjL | soon enough my bot might not be workable anymore, as they are limiting free use of their streaming API (and changing how they work) | 06:11 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: South African Hindu priests accused of ‘overcharging’ for funerals of COVID victims → https://is.gd/dUVjgc | 06:12 |
raccoon_dog | Ouch. | 06:13 |
de-facto | although i get furiously angry when i meet such people i think its very important to do everything to re-integrate them hence work actively against separation and polarization of society (they should not remain trapped in those brainwash bubbles), its hard but important to be open minded and not emotionally opposed to such views but rather try to understand them and try to find a way to make them understand the current consensus in a polite | 06:15 |
de-facto | and inviting way | 06:15 |
de-facto | after all we sit in one boat with this, so everyone in society is mandatory part of a concept | 06:16 |
de-facto | for that reason i think its absolutely important to have very transparent and understandable falsifiable high quality information publicly discussed and available | 06:17 |
de-facto | ok maybe right now vaccine production is the shortage, but being optimistic assuming that will be solved at some point (its a technical problem after all), we should already think about the next challenge that is in the future and at some point that might be vaccination participation | 06:19 |
de-facto | hence imho this needs to be addressed now already (and already is to some extend) | 06:19 |
LjL | I am convinced at some point, when there actually is enough for everyone, most countries will make the vaccine mandatory, either directly, or by pervasive restriction of activity on unvaccinated people | 06:20 |
LjL | Either that or we'll have revolutions and something entirely different will happen | 06:20 |
de-facto | i am not sure if making it mandatory is such a good idea, it might even play in the hands of those opposed to it | 06:21 |
raccoon_dog | de-facto: I've tried doing that for the past four years, and it only ended with decades-long friendships ending with a block on every social media platform last November, so you have to understand, I'm tired of sitting down and negotiating with people. | 06:21 |
de-facto | imho it should be achieved with a very good and honest information campaign | 06:21 |
de-facto | raccoon_dog, i hear you, i have experienced the same, still i think its important to try to work towards re-integration and cohesion somehow | 06:23 |
raccoon_dog | Yeah, I totally understand. | 06:23 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: UK to quarantine visitors from nations with high COVID-19 risk: Report → https://is.gd/niaDg5 | 06:49 |
gigasu_shida | lol de-facto 'reintegrate them' | 06:49 |
raccoon_dog | XD | 06:50 |
gigasu_shida | btw de-facto where you said "the shortage" we would probably usually say "the bottleneck" | 06:58 |
de-facto | yeah i am not a native English speaker, i meant the insufficient production rates (doses per time) to fulfill the demand, no saturation effect observable in demand | 07:01 |
gigasu_shida | oh ok sorry | 07:16 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Los Lagos, Chile: +847 cases (now 37489), +7 deaths (now 351) since 23 hours ago — Morelos, Mexico: +643 cases (now 16268), +27 deaths (now 1726) since 23 hours ago — France: +23932 cases (now 3.1 million), +230 deaths (now 72948) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +33598 cases (now 3.6 million), +1349 deaths (now 97423) since 23 hours ago | 07:20 |
de-facto | .title https://pastebin.com/wvdG7Crm <-- LjL, interesting comment from Alexander Kekule (virologist and epidemiologist) on the SA variants immune escapes, the papers we discussed here few days ago | 07:23 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From pastebin.com: COVID-19 SA Escaping Mutant - Pastebin.com | 07:23 |
de-facto | original in German Language (audio) i tried to auto-translate with Google | 07:23 |
de-facto | quite neat that the experts discuss the same papers we discuss here independently :) | 07:28 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: A year after Wuhan lockdown, China reports small rise in COVID-19 cases → https://is.gd/UCumQx | 08:52 |
euod[m] | LjL: the way it works in australia is a policy called "no jab no pay", which means you can't get any payments from the government if you don't have a vaccination report (not for covid yet obviously). turns out that works really well. | 08:58 |
euod[m] | I'd expect to see something like that in other countries at some point. the cost of people not being vaccinated is too high. | 08:59 |
Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | January 24, 2021: The WHO pages contain up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. → https://is.gd/JXaBhJ | 09:04 |
raccoon_dog | That'll be one way to force it, but that'll get backlash here in the US for sure. | 09:09 |
raccoon_dog | And the NWO conspiracy theories will be trotted out, like the figurative dead horses they are and be beaten, ad nauseam. | 09:10 |
g2` | Is it possible to have an oder covid-19 with one of the newer variants like b117 simultaneously | 10:16 |
g2` | Since both require separate vaccines | 10:16 |
g2` | Wouldn't seem so | 10:19 |
g2` | Since both are covid-19 | 10:19 |
Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid: Vaccinated people may spread virus, says Van-Tam: England's deputy chief medical officer urges those who have had the jab to stick to lockdown rules. → https://is.gd/RMbjMD | 10:29 |
\mSg | My understanding is existing vaccines will work against b117 varient. I imagine they could coexist in somebody but they'd be competing for the same resources (ace-2 receptor) and I wouldn't imagine it was cause any differencne in the disease outcomes as they seem on para with each other. | 10:41 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Portugal chooses a president amid a severe pandemic surge → https://is.gd/qboyaa | 10:41 |
DocScrutinizer05 | Germany buys 200k doses *mab for 400mio € | 11:07 |
python476 | france about to relockdown rumor has it | 11:11 |
python476 | whack-a-mole, covid edition | 11:11 |
bittersweetsymph | when I looked at France's wiki page they have a graph that shows living density seeming to increase excess deaths. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_France#Statistics | 11:15 |
python476 | meh .. my opinion, french caught the same 'anti' mania as US, slightly less but that's the main reason why propagation occured | 11:16 |
python476 | mask were a plot against freedom, secret parties, people moving in the country.. also religious gatherings | 11:17 |
bittersweetsymph | true and a lot of people living in a small country doesn't help, I hadn't heard about the backlash in France though | 11:20 |
python476 | where you at ? | 11:26 |
python476 | I guess it's true that for places like russia australia or most of the US .. space helps | 11:26 |
python476 | lockdown is less harsh when you live in a ranch | 11:26 |
bittersweetsymph | Australia | 11:28 |
python476 | heh | 11:28 |
bittersweetsymph | what about u | 11:29 |
python476 | france | 11:29 |
bittersweetsymph | I wish you the best | 11:30 |
bittersweetsymph | I wonder what it is like there | 11:30 |
bittersweetsymph | are people going about life as usual or mostly trying to stay home/away from each other | 11:30 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Dems Urged Not to ‘Waste a Second’ Negotiating as Republicans Back Away From COVID Relief → https://is.gd/AwFMXK | 11:30 |
python476 | i was never a really social guy so I can't really say how people are | 11:31 |
python476 | but based on france subreddit people are starting to express emotional issues | 11:32 |
python476 | it's becoming regular | 11:32 |
python476 | also many resent government for subpar planning/scheduling | 11:32 |
bittersweetsymph | https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/ i am just looking at the statistics there now | 11:35 |
bittersweetsymph | it would be a very hard job there because it's all land borders and such a densely populated area | 11:35 |
bittersweetsymph | well not all but some land borders | 11:36 |
bittersweetsymph | unlike here | 11:36 |
bittersweetsymph | Everyone is wearing masks now? | 11:36 |
bittersweetsymph | When was the last lockdown | 11:36 |
python476 | cant even recall.. summe r? | 11:36 |
python476 | time is fuzzy | 11:36 |
bittersweetsymph | I heard to take vitamin D and zinc might help a little | 11:36 |
python476 | we were under partial curfew since | 11:36 |
python476 | yeah a lot of people say that | 11:36 |
python476 | I took supplements | 11:36 |
python476 | some study said that people in low light latitudes had higher covid scores | 11:37 |
python476 | some say vitd only matters for some ethnic groups.. | 11:37 |
python476 | in any case boosting the immune system is good I guess | 11:37 |
bittersweetsymph | yes i think with a darker skin tone people are more prone to vitamin D deficiency | 11:39 |
bittersweetsymph | https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/france/ oh that's France | 11:40 |
bittersweetsymph | gee France right next door's situation is pretty tough also | 11:40 |
bittersweetsymph | in Spain | 11:40 |
bittersweetsymph | I hope you and your family/friends will be ok | 11:41 |
bittersweetsymph | my uncle had it he survived, had just a very mild case and he was over 70 too | 11:42 |
python476 | we had zero casualties luckily | 11:45 |
python476 | a niece got it but it didn't do any harm, a cousin got it but it was mild | 11:45 |
bittersweetsymph | Are you able to get a vaccine? | 11:50 |
python476 | hi | 11:52 |
python476 | internet dropped | 11:52 |
python476 | bittersweetsymph: | 11:52 |
python476 | vaccine not sure yet, not eager too | 11:52 |
bittersweetsymph | I was just reading this https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/Covid-vaccines-France-Key-details-appointments-documents | 11:52 |
python476 | I'll wait to see the side effects | 11:52 |
bittersweetsymph | first priority to over 75s i think | 11:53 |
python476 | also that | 11:53 |
bittersweetsymph | From Monday, January 18, all over 75s and everyone at high risk of a serious form of Covid-19 due to existing conditions will be eligible to receive the Covid-19 vaccination. | 11:53 |
python476 | and since I'm only working 3 mornings a week I dont get too much interactions, risk is mild | 11:53 |
bittersweetsymph | wonder when everyone else would get it | 11:53 |
bittersweetsymph | What is your job? | 11:54 |
python476 | jobless | 11:54 |
python476 | i volunteer at a charity food warehouse | 11:54 |
python476 | helping to unpack the cans at local distribution sites | 11:54 |
python476 | it's mentally very light, perfect for me | 11:55 |
bittersweetsymph | you're a good person to do that | 11:55 |
python476 | not really IMO | 11:55 |
bittersweetsymph | maybe very needed at this time | 11:55 |
python476 | I have motives to go there | 11:55 |
python476 | I'm still suffering from depression, my house is toxic, so it gives me a reason to get out of bed | 11:56 |
bittersweetsymph | i think when everyone panics making sure everyone has enough food becomes a problem maybe so doing that is a very important job right now | 11:56 |
python476 | yeah it is of social value that's for sure | 11:56 |
python476 | slight anecdote, the other day, a young girl started to rant about the food she was given. not enough apparently. She said she'd write a letter to complaint to the boss | 11:56 |
python476 | quite an attitude right | 11:57 |
bittersweetsymph | oh | 11:57 |
python476 | bittersweetsymph: I hate the job market, and most jobs are toxic to my soul. I worked at a court room last summer it was near the most dreadful place I ever landed foot in | 11:57 |
python476 | people were all sad, slow, limited, mean | 11:58 |
bittersweetsymph | yeah i can imagine it would be a sad place | 11:58 |
python476 | so I don't have the force to find new jobs | 11:58 |
python476 | the charity is kind of a trick | 11:58 |
python476 | I get state money monthly.. so at least I give something back to society :) | 11:59 |
bittersweetsymph | I can understand where you are coming from | 11:59 |
python476 | what do you do ? | 11:59 |
bittersweetsymph | UberEats | 11:59 |
python476 | oh | 11:59 |
python476 | by bike ? | 11:59 |
bittersweetsymph | but a year ago I was working in an Accountant office..similar to you really | 11:59 |
python476 | (I forgot if it's mandatory) | 11:59 |
bittersweetsymph | in my car | 11:59 |
python476 | aight | 11:59 |
python476 | you like it ? | 11:59 |
bittersweetsymph | yeah I like driving around | 11:59 |
python476 | yeah it's quite peaceful to be on your own on the road | 12:00 |
python476 | I did deliver food at night last year | 12:00 |
python476 | undeclared gig for a guy cooking special burgers at his house | 12:00 |
python476 | I loved it | 12:00 |
python476 | you know I'm a software engineer .. but I stopped giving a fuck about tech | 12:00 |
python476 | and this ubereats like gig.. was near peak life for me | 12:01 |
python476 | like paid tourism :) | 12:01 |
bittersweetsymph | Software engineer I thought you might be a lawyer if you worked in a court room | 12:02 |
bittersweetsymph | I volunteered in a food back in the past also | 12:04 |
bittersweetsymph | well charity for the poor food supermarket thing | 12:04 |
bittersweetsymph | stacking their shelves like you | 12:04 |
bittersweetsymph | It's probably not that good to be doing UberEats in a pandemic and maybe people look down on me for it but *shrug* | 12:06 |
bittersweetsymph | it's good for the people i drop food to though | 12:06 |
bittersweetsymph | lol | 12:06 |
bittersweetsymph | Anyway I hope you go well | 12:07 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: No Europe deaths directly tied to Covid jabs: experts: Despite dozens of deaths of people shortly after they were vaccinated against coronavirus, scientists say the evidence available so far does not incriminate the new anti-COVID vaccines. → https://is.gd/4GKB8G | 12:07 |
python476 | the courtroom was a temporary clerk gig, no skills required | 12:08 |
bittersweetsymph | oh | 12:16 |
bittersweetsymph | You have done many different jobs also | 12:17 |
python476 | since Im not bedridden I tried a few ones | 12:17 |
python476 | truck disassembler | 12:18 |
python476 | newspaper delivery, ~ubereats | 12:18 |
python476 | newspaper delivery was harder than truck disassembly mind you | 12:18 |
python476 | I was shocked | 12:18 |
python476 | 65 customers per hour, for 2 hours, too stressful | 12:18 |
python476 | boy this was so long before covid | 12:19 |
bittersweetsymph | yeah newpaper or pamphlet delivery seriously sucks i did that too | 12:19 |
bittersweetsymph | in the summer heat and humidity of AU it was tough | 12:19 |
bittersweetsymph | and had very low pay also | 12:19 |
bittersweetsymph | well others might do well with it but the heat and humidity gets to me | 12:20 |
bittersweetsymph | in a colder climate might not be as bad...never disassembled a truck though | 12:21 |
bittersweetsymph | that sounds like hard work | 12:22 |
bittersweetsymph | but interesting maybe | 12:22 |
bittersweetsymph | Were you bedridden? | 12:24 |
DocScrutinizer05 | >>scientists say the evidence available so far does not incriminate the new anti-COVID vaccines<< ORLY | 12:25 |
python476 | bittersweetsymph: well I only staeyed 2 weeks at the truck shop | 12:36 |
python476 | but I found it a bit fun (it's interesting to see how the trucks are made) | 12:36 |
python476 | and it was hard but just right | 12:36 |
python476 | It was a bit like warming up | 12:37 |
Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: New warning on vaccine supplies sparks EU concern: A warning from AstraZeneca that initial supplies of its COVID vaccinations to Europe will be lower than expected has sparked fresh concern over the rollout of inoculations, forcing some countries to plan for a sharp drop in deliveries. → https://is.gd/LMXA6W | 12:43 |
Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Opinion: The stakes for choosing the right FDA commissioner couldn’t be higher: As a weary and uncertain America faces the likelihood of needing continual rollout of new coronavirus treatments in the years to come, the stakes for President Biden's choice for FDA… → https://is.gd/VEwpIQ | 13:08 |
Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid: Vaccinated people may spread virus, says Van-Tam: England's deputy chief medical officer urges those who have had the jab to stick to lockdown rules. → https://is.gd/RMbjMD | 13:20 |
bittersweetsymph | hopfeully everyone stays home as much as possible python until more can get vaccinated. i hope you will be ok | 13:28 |
Brainstorm | Updates for UAE: +3579 cases (now 277955), +9 deaths (now 792) since a day ago | 13:58 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Rioters destroy coronavirus testing facility in Dutch village → https://is.gd/N2v1Jz | 14:21 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Global COVID Cases For 24JAN21 → https://is.gd/4GKHjt | 14:33 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Germany made additional agreements with vaccine producers for extra 30M doses, technically violating the European Commission’s vaccination strategy. It's the only EU country acting this way. → https://is.gd/mQgIwZ | 15:23 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +14 deaths (now 9064) since 12 hours ago | 15:25 |
Brainstorm | New from NPR: New Zealand Records First Suspected COVID-19 Community Case Since November: A 56-year-old woman who had traveled to Spain and the Netherlands for work late last year has tested positive for COVID-19. It's New Zealand's first probable community transmission in months. → https://is.gd/q7WSUN | 16:12 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: COVID would have been dealt with better if key decisions weren't all made by men, says Labour frontbencher → https://is.gd/MZDKE0 | 16:25 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +11866 cases (now 2.1 million) since 22 hours ago | 16:27 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: As COVID surges in Canada, workers ‘can’t afford to get sick’ → https://is.gd/cZp746 | 16:49 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Do an Altered Gut Microbiota and an Associated Leaky Gut Affect COVID-19 Severity? (84 votes) | https://mbio.asm.org/content/12/1/e03022-20 | https://redd.it/l3wu7e | 17:01 |
Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Vaccine disparities raise alarm as Covid variants multiply → https://is.gd/wdZTtO | 17:14 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +3199 cases (now 745195) since 22 hours ago | 17:23 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/coronavirus: US passes the 1 Million vaccinations in a day mark (10339 votes) | https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-19-vaccination-doses?tab=chart&stackMode=absolute&time=earliest..latest®ion=World | https://redd.it/l3yjcc | 17:49 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: UK records 30,004 new COVID-19 cases, 6.3 million people have had first vaccine dose → https://is.gd/Lp768j | 18:04 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Rioters set fire to Dutch coronavirus testing centre as new curfew comes into effect → https://is.gd/UhZRqo | 18:16 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Israeli health minister says not country’s job to give vaccine to Palestinians in occupied territory → https://is.gd/Zzrjow | 18:29 |
Peasant65 | Just want to add something to that dutch headline ^^. The youth that set fire to that testing centre, throw riots about a lot of things. Not just covid. | 18:29 |
Peasant65 | They just like riots. | 18:30 |
LjL | ubLIX[m]: 16:01 CoronaBot posted another study (at least I think it's not the same one) linking microbiota dysfunction with long COVID | 18:41 |
LjL | de-facto: thanks for the transcription. Not everything is entirely clear to me, it seems German has a lot of expressions that Google translates in odd ways | 18:41 |
Jigsy | %cases UK | 18:41 |
Brainstorm | Jigsy: In United Kingdom, there have been 3.6 million confirmed cases (5.5% of the population) and 97423 deaths (2.7% of cases) as of 11 hours ago. 67.2 million tests were performed (5.4% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data. | 18:41 |
LjL | Peasant65: the reddit comments on it are mostly throwing shade at the locality where it happened | 18:43 |
Peasant65 | Yes true LjL. It's a regular thing for the youth in Urk (place) | 18:44 |
Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +18306 cases (now 3.6 million), +376 deaths (now 97799) since 11 hours ago — Italy: +11628 cases (now 2.5 million), +299 deaths (now 85461) since a day ago — Netherlands: +3785 cases (now 951693), +46 deaths (now 13565) since 16 hours ago | 18:50 |
LjL | Sunday numbers | 18:53 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: N-Acetylcysteine to Combat COVID-19: An Evidence Review (81 votes) | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7649937 | https://redd.it/l3tpvn | 19:20 |
LjL | ubLIX[m], ↑ | 19:20 |
LjL | not a whole lot of evidence reviewed in my cursory look at it, but | 19:24 |
DocScrutinizer05 | wait! ACC? yet another one I already got on my daily meds plan. Why do I worry about that virus at all? ;-D | 19:33 |
DocScrutinizer05 | HUH? >>However, the vaccine has shown limited benefit in the elderly, suggesting an age-dependent immune response<< | 19:34 |
genera | no, NAC. not ASS | 19:34 |
genera | oder | 19:34 |
DocScrutinizer05 | ACC not ASS, aka NAC | 19:34 |
genera | i saw NAC mentioned somewhere. maybe during the first wave? | 19:35 |
DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.husten.de/acc-produkte.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIjNPYgpu17gIVA7p3Ch1fkgh-EAAYASAAEgLKDPD_BwE | 19:35 |
LjL | DocScrutinizer05, that sentence is quite bad for sure. if anything, some of the vaccines have shown limited immune response on the elderly, which still does not necessarily mean they will be less effective since immunity is complicated. i don't think there's any evidence from phase 3 trials of older people actually being more likely to contract COVID after being vaccinated | 19:38 |
LjL | Sanofi seems to work quite poorly on people over 55, but that's why they are delaying it, they aren't just going ahead... and it is one vaccine out of several | 19:38 |
LjL | speaking of which, TV suggested today that the EU is looking at Sputnik V and Sinovac to make up for the lower delivery of Pfizer and AZ :\ i'm not thrilled | 19:39 |
LjL | these vaccines don't have phase 3 results out, they were developed less than transparently, and Sinovac has had very inconsistent results across countries | 19:40 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: People who have received a Covid-19 vaccine could still pass the virus on to others and should continue following lockdown rules → https://is.gd/euSJWP | 19:43 |
DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: I wonder why the authors are elaborating on vaccines at all, in a "study" about ACC. Sounds a bit like propaganda | 19:43 |
LjL | and the paper only has two authors | 19:44 |
DocScrutinizer05 | are they by any chance employees of a pharma concern producing NAC/ACC? | 19:45 |
LjL | not according to the COI statement | 19:45 |
LjL | anyway, NAC is not new in the landscape of things that may help with COVID | 19:45 |
LjL | that's why i puted ubLIX[m] to it, because he's kinda followed that | 19:45 |
ubLIX[m] | one of the reasons NAC hasn't been subject to extensive testing wrt covid is that there is no money in it. generic medicine as old as the hills. it is the standard treatment for acetaminophen poisoning, and has also long been used as a mucolytic. it just happens also to be a potent antioxidant. and is a thrombolytic. it'd quite odd if it didn't have some therapeutic value for covid. | 19:54 |
raccoon_dog | https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/01/24/us/covid-vaccine-rollout.html | 19:56 |
raccoon_dog | This is interesting. | 19:56 |
LjL | the estimates may be on the ball for the US, if they can keep the current vaccination pace | 20:09 |
DocScrutinizer05 | the real challenge of NAC is for the flavor designers to somehow mitigate that taste of burnt rubber | 20:15 |
LjL | uhm, it just tastes very mildly sulfuric to me | 20:17 |
de-facto[m] | .title https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-close-ben-gurion-airport-to-all-arrivals-amid-mutation-fears/ | 20:27 |
Brainstorm | de-facto[m]: From www.timesofisrael.com: Israel to almost completely shut Ben Gurion Airport for week amid mutation fears | The Times of Israel | 20:27 |
DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: it's difficult to describe that taste, but it's sort of disgusting to me | 20:28 |
de-facto[m] | Question: why are passenger flights still not illegal in other countries? | 20:29 |
DocScrutinizer05 | and it seems to change chameleonesque with any other flavor you mix in | 20:30 |
DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto[m]: we threw 9 BILION at lufthansa, how could we declare flying illegal :-o >:-( | 20:31 |
Brainstorm | New from NPR: U.S. Tops 25 Million Cases Of The Coronavirus: The devastating news comes almost one year to the day after the first case of the virus was detected in the country, and as officials warn the situation will only grow worse before it gets better. → https://is.gd/BCDGdI | 20:32 |
de-facto[m] | They should convert their entire fleet to cargo transport, imho passenger flights never should be allowed ever again. | 20:37 |
de-facto | .title https://www.iaa.gov.il/en/airports/ben-gurion/notifications-and-updates-during-covid-19/ | 20:50 |
Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.iaa.gov.il: error parsing title ('NoneType' object has no attribute 'string') | 20:50 |
de-facto | "As a result of the outbreak of the coronavirus, many changes have been made in operating processes at Ben-Gurion International Airport. The services provided to passengers at Ben-Gurion International Airport have been significantly restricted, as have movements by passengers and aircraft." | 20:50 |
dTal | I see the snake behind the curtain | 20:50 |
LjL | Sometimes you scare me a little de-facto | 20:51 |
dTal | Israel have vaccinated 25% of their population already apparently | 20:51 |
dTal | by an amazing coincidence, 0% of them are Palestinian | 20:52 |
dTal | de-facto: banning all passenger flights forever is just silly | 20:54 |
de-facto | Passenger flights were how SARS-CoV-2 spread initially and undercover by asymptomatic international (business?) travelers, yet instead of learning from it air travel is still allowed. D614G spread internationally exactly the same way. Now probably also N501Y, do we realy want also to have E484K worldwide? | 20:56 |
Brainstorm | New from StatNews: ‘I’m not looking to be vindicated,’ Deborah Birx says in televised interview: Deborah Birx said she waited to give an interview about her experiences as the coordinator of the White House Coronavirus Task Force until after President Joe Biden’s inauguration. → https://is.gd/ElD1eq | 20:56 |
LjL | no, we don't, but it's a big leap from that to going "forever" | 20:57 |
LjL | maybe you're right that we should ban it "forever", because of other reasons including climate | 20:57 |
de-facto | What about another pathogen that might be even more lethal in the future? Why would it not behave similar to the dynamics we have observed with this pandemic? | 20:57 |
LjL | i read a pretty grim-sounding article yesterday https://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/what-if-we-stopped-pretending | 20:57 |
dTal | I don't expect viral spread mitigations to last forever | 20:57 |
dTal | it's a century-event | 20:58 |
dTal | these things happen | 20:58 |
LjL | but it's a hard pill to swallow that i just will never be allowed, for example, to meet many of the people i talk to on the internet. a "look but don't touch" world where technology lets us see places but never actually be there... | 20:58 |
LjL | dTal, well, except we're doing things to the environment that are accelerating at a very worrisome pace | 20:58 |
de-facto | there always will be new pathogens circulating and for many of them reaction to ban travel simply is not fast enough to contain them if its possible to fly around the globe in days and directly walk in the crowds | 20:58 |
LjL | so i wouldn't take it for granted that we're not in for a *sequence* of epidemics | 20:58 |
dTal | oh I thought we were having a pandemic conversation not a climate change conversation | 20:59 |
dTal | climate-wise we are so, so boned | 20:59 |
LjL | dTal, i do not believe they are unconnected | 20:59 |
dTal | I think we've already triggered the clathrate gun, in the past few years | 20:59 |
dTal | we are in for a ride | 20:59 |
de-facto | if passenger airtravel really really has to continue then only with mandatory quarantine until its absolutely clear that no unknown disease is transported with the passenger. If air traveling requires 1 month of quarantine maybe people would think about if it really is necessary to do that | 21:00 |
LjL | that article i linked doesn't focus on flying, but does mention in passing that the "theoretical" solutions to climate change involve things we most likely won't do, like virtually shutting down all transport infrastructures worldwide | 21:00 |
dTal | we can't shut down transport infrastructure, the world would starve | 21:01 |
dTal | I mean yeah, kiling everyone is a solution to climate change, but it's kinda throwing out the baby with the bathwater | 21:01 |
de-facto | cargo transport can be made safe much easier than passenger transport | 21:01 |
de-facto | why would we need passenger transport? | 21:01 |
LjL | dTal, indeed the article concludes we're fucked, that's why it's titled "what if we stopped pretending". then it gives you a philosophical view that we should have hope for today since we can't have it for the far future, where, anyway, we're condemned to be dead forever since we were born | 21:01 |
LjL | de-facto, i don't know how to answer that question except with "..." | 21:02 |
LjL | i really don't | 21:02 |
LjL | i admit that you may be right | 21:02 |
LjL | but it's like you're throwing a giant stone on everyone's way of life without recognizing it's a loss | 21:03 |
LjL | we had passenger transport for a variety of reasons that improved people's quality of life | 21:03 |
dTal | I don't think the virus, or fear of future viruses, is a reason to shut down transport infrastructure | 21:03 |
LjL | it may make it worse long-term, or if there's a pathogen around, and i recognize that | 21:03 |
LjL | but, woah, try to recognize the OTHER loss too | 21:03 |
de-facto | i recognize its a huge loss, but i also cant ignore the observation on how dynamics depend on air traveling passengers during this pandemic | 21:03 |
dTal | maybe temporarily, now, but not permanently | 21:03 |
LjL | otherwise you keep talking about "getting the deniers on board", but this way even i start to become a denier | 21:04 |
dTal | it's like never leaving the house without a flak jacket and bowie knife, because you got mugged once | 21:04 |
dTal | it's not an acceptable tradeoff | 21:04 |
LjL | besides, why air travel in particular? yes, it's the fastest way we have to move around, but Europe has been investing a lot of money into creating high-speed rail, specifically for passenger transports and while freeing up existing railways for cargo | 21:05 |
LjL | so should we scrap that too? | 21:05 |
dTal | The correct way to deal with this is a robust track and trace system | 21:05 |
LjL | what travelling distance is "too long"? | 21:05 |
LjL | should i not be allowed to leave my municipality not just until the next revision of the lockdown laws, but forever? | 21:05 |
de-facto | no we would need to have compartmentalized zones for traveling freely, such as schengen in EU or such | 21:06 |
dTal | live your life normally, detect new breakout pathogens early, agressive track and trace (and maybe local lockdowns) | 21:06 |
LjL | de-facto, based on what science? Schengen's size and contents are based on political considerations, not at all on epidemiological ones | 21:06 |
de-facto | but traveling between such zones would have to be only possible with a delay time (quarantine) between having contacts to local communities that ensures no unknown pathogens are transported | 21:07 |
dTal | you're acting like this hasn't happened before | 21:07 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +4486 cases (now 747812) since 22 hours ago — France: +135 deaths (now 72982) since 22 hours ago | 21:07 |
dTal | deadly pandemics are a thing, and we haven't deemed it a worthwhile tradeoff to stunt global trade | 21:07 |
dTal | and we won't | 21:07 |
dTal | this conversation is academic really because it won't happen | 21:07 |
de-facto | the new variants simply wont be contained unless passenger airtravel is banned internationally | 21:07 |
dTal | they will not be contained | 21:08 |
dTal | there's no attempt to contain them | 21:08 |
de-facto | it probably already spread on Christmas traveling | 21:08 |
LjL | okay de-facto but this is about the current pandemic and these variants | 21:08 |
LjL | let's not keep jumping between "stop flights for now" and "stop flights forever" | 21:08 |
dTal | at some point the pandemic will end | 21:08 |
LjL | they are two very different propositions | 21:08 |
p1gasu | dTal, sadly test& trace isn't going to work with 100k / day new cases | 21:08 |
CoronaBot | 04/r/covid19: Fecal microbiota transplantation for COVID-19; a potential emerging treatment strategy (86 votes) | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987720333673 | https://redd.it/l4350a | 21:08 |
dTal | p1gasu: we are talking about future putative pandemics | 21:09 |
LjL | i can agree with stopping passenger flights for now, although i'm not sure it will be exceedingly helpful since i suspect all the variants have already taken seed pretty much everywhere | 21:09 |
LjL | dTal, we are, except when de-facto goes back to arguing about the new variants :P | 21:09 |
dTal | yes | 21:09 |
de-facto | LjL, well the only difference is that we know for sure that flights spread the new variants right now but without a known pandemic already ongoing the mechanism is exactly the same, it originated from somewhere and would not have spread internationally when international airtravel would not have allowed this to happen | 21:10 |
LjL | there are a number of things that were done wrong | 21:10 |
LjL | in a very obvious way that we have observed and fumed about here many times | 21:10 |
de-facto | and until we stop doing those things wrong it will happen again and again | 21:11 |
LjL | it is not obvious that we couldn't have stopped the pandemic simply by doing those things right, without killing air travel | 21:11 |
LjL | China had air travel. China is now more or less COVID-free. | 21:11 |
dTal | We're not gonna stop all passenger air travel | 21:12 |
dTal | ain't happening. | 21:12 |
p1gasu | last I heard LAX had 600 flight/day | 21:13 |
de-facto | i know its not going to happen, its not even happening during the pandemic right now | 21:13 |
de-facto | but i think if we just look at the observed evidence for transmission (e.g. initial spread, variants etc) banning international air-travel (unless accepting quarantine for 1 month) would be the appropriate consequence to prevent this from happening again in the future with some unknown new pathogen | 21:15 |
de-facto | because local measures for containment only can be raised after the pathogen already arrived and was studied, that is too late | 21:16 |
de-facto | and tbh i really dont see any reason for the necessity of international passenger air-travel, sure its nice to meet business contacts in person or to be entertained by foreign countries and cultures on holidays, but imho its not necessary at all for the essential functions even in a globalized world | 21:19 |
de-facto | (sorry thats my honest opinion on this) | 21:19 |
de-facto | and on another topic: I read China is extracting 2nd level contacts to cases tested positive for SARS-CoV-2 into separate isolation facilities to prevent community spread, that is whole other class of containment compared to telling cases tested positive for a new variant of concern to "please isolate at home" and trusting that no community transmission occurs from that | 21:27 |
de-facto | ok still after the fact of knowledge but shows how much more dedicated they are to effective containment | 21:28 |
mmtsuchi[m] | <de-facto "but i think if we just look at t"> Yeah, it is a good idea to stop propagation of virus **but** many countries deadly depends of aerial imports. So we couldn't do that... too many consequences on "local" economy, "local" subsistence. | 21:32 |
de-facto | thats why i said they should try to make cargo air-transport safe by a proper bio-security concept | 21:33 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Beijing tests for COVID-19 using anal swabs, where virus may survive longer: experts → https://is.gd/JwgSJm | 21:33 |
de-facto | i agree that we need international shipment of goods with short delay times, yet it should be much easier to prevent contamination on goods that are non-replicating for the pathogen in contrast to living beings that can get infected, transport it while replicating already in their incubation period and then spread it in uncontrollable ways in the community on arrival | 21:35 |
de-facto | we simply cant trust the "word" or "intention" of passenger when the health and biosecurity of a whole travel compartment such as a country or a conglomerate of free travel zone is at stake | 21:37 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Democratic lawmakers slam Israel for not vaccinating Palestinians in occupied West Bank → https://is.gd/vs1VCk | 21:45 |
dTal | de-facto there are lots of things we could do to prevent this from ever happening in the future | 21:49 |
dTal | we could euthanize everyone, for example | 21:49 |
dTal | Or we could lock ourselves in isolated pods and have all material goods transported by drone | 21:50 |
dTal | We could manufacture 7 billion FFP3 respirators and mandate their use in public at all times, forever | 21:51 |
dTal | (this last option would arguably have less economic cost than nuking the air travel industry) | 21:51 |
dTal | the point is, it is unreasonable to prevent this from happening again "at any cost" | 21:52 |
dTal | there is a cost to the pandemic but it is not infinite | 21:53 |
dTal | or even that large, compared to some things | 21:53 |
de-facto | yes hence it would make sense to think about benefit-cost ratios, if we want to have as few local restrictions as possible we would need to have compartmentalized zones and restrict transmission (of yet unknown pathogen) between them. Imho that would be the best compromise because it could lower the probability of unknown spread to just one of those compartments while the other would stay free of it when transmission by traveling between | 21:58 |
de-facto | them is prevented by mandatory quarantine (e.g. at east 1 month or such) | 21:58 |
dTal | or, you know, no restrictions at all | 22:00 |
dTal | because it's not worth it for a century event | 22:00 |
de-facto | well then it will happen exactly like we have observed it now again, potentially with a more dangerous pathogen | 22:00 |
de-facto | its only a question of time | 22:01 |
dTal | well let's be clear that there's a large middle ground between "handle the pandemic as poorly as we have" and "forever lockdown because never again, never again, never again" | 22:01 |
de-facto | and since world population follows an exponential growth curve and international transport never was used this frequently before its not comparable to 100 years ago at all, it will happen more often now | 22:02 |
dTal | there are some really obvious wins to be had | 22:02 |
dTal | we will already be more prepared for the next pandemic, for a while anyway | 22:02 |
de-facto | i did not say forever lockdown, i just said that international passenger travel via flights is extremely stupid as we do it right now. it simply cant continue like this anymore | 22:03 |
Brainstorm | Updates for Malawi: +956 cases (now 19395), +38 deaths (now 508) since 16 hours ago | 22:03 |
de-facto | in fact i meant in order to lift local lockdown (after this pandemic was dealt with) we need to think about proper and absolute strict bio-security concepts for international travel, otherwise we cant afford to lift lockdown again (obviously as we could observe from this pandemic), that is if we have the intention of preventing such a thing to happen again in the future | 22:06 |
Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Dutch police clash with anti-lockdown rioters in two cities → https://is.gd/XJZewO | 22:10 |
DocScrutinizer05 | >>imho passenger flights never should be allowed ever again <de-facto> Passenger flights were how SARS-CoV-2 spread initially<< well... Actually I think *breathing* is what spreads the virus, so it should be outlawed. - Honestly, more constructive approaches would do a better job at shaping our future. | 22:21 |
de-facto | that does not make any sense, your try to compare breathing with passenger flights | 22:22 |
de-facto | i never heard of anyone dying from not being allowed to fly, yet i hear the rumor that breathing might be essential for survival (maybe its not true?) | 22:23 |
DocScrutinizer05 | honestly you're sounding silly | 22:34 |
de-facto | honestly to me comparing breathing with air-travel sounds silly | 22:35 |
DocScrutinizer05 | nad ignorant about >>i never heard of anyone dying from not being allowed to fly<< | 22:35 |
DocScrutinizer05 | I even KNOW people that only live because of passenger flights | 22:35 |
DocScrutinizer05 | and suggesting a new GDR to fight *potential* future pandemics is really I mindset I don't feel like discussing any longer | 22:36 |
de-facto | then dont | 22:36 |
DocScrutinizer05 | how about YOU simply never again leave your home? problem solved | 22:37 |
de-facto | i am sorry to tell you that you dont make any sense | 22:38 |
DocScrutinizer05 | I'm pretty sure there's no special issue with passenger flights that can't get solved by much much MUCH milder and particularly infinitely smarter means than "never again allow passenger flights, ever" | 22:39 |
DocScrutinizer05 | tbh it's prolly the most idiotic thing I heard since end of last year | 22:40 |
de-facto | how does it spread internationally? did it spread before we knew about its presence? | 22:41 |
DocScrutinizer05 | and if ... lemme count... 4(?) people tell you that you don't make sense, maybe it's not a smart approach to tell them that THEY all don't make sense and you were totally reasonable | 22:42 |
de-facto | so it does not make sense that passenger air-travel spread it internationally? | 22:43 |
DocScrutinizer05 | so it does not make sense that having any other human within vicinity is spreading it *everywhere*? | 22:43 |
de-facto | of course the spread it from human to human, but if it only would spread locally and be contained to a compartment it could be contained there and not become an international pandemic again | 22:45 |
DocScrutinizer05 | an epidemiologist told me in his studies a task was to find out how to stop bird flew from spreading. The most efficient solution: kill all birds | 22:45 |
de-facto | we are talking about human to human spread not bird flu | 22:46 |
DocScrutinizer05 | of course it spreads internationally by flights among other paths, but if nobody would meet anybody closer than 100m or within closed rooms, it would NOT spread AT ALL | 22:47 |
DocScrutinizer05 | de-you need a break, honestly | 22:47 |
de-facto | sure, but its not realistic alt all, what are the impacts on daily routine way of life from 1) always keeping distance 100m to anyone else 2) not being able to freely travel via airplane at all or without going into mandatory quarantine ? | 22:48 |
de-facto | you are trying to compare apples with pears | 22:49 |
DocScrutinizer05 | no, you are not seeing how your arguments against my silly suggestion apply to yours 100% exactly the same | 22:54 |
DocScrutinizer05 | btw your >>or without going into mandatory quarantine<< is an afterthought you prolly brought up when you realized your original suggestion just was too extreme | 22:55 |
DocScrutinizer05 | and my concern isjust sou sound extremly silly and not honest with such statements. Which isn't a problem for me as long as it was just about your reputation, but the results are like >><LjL> otherwise you keep talking about "getting the deniers on board", but this way even i start to become a denier<< | 22:57 |
DocScrutinizer05 | and _that_ doesn't help anybody | 22:58 |
LjL | Woah woah woah | 22:59 |
LjL | You know what I see as an actual big problem with ending up doing the right things | 22:59 |
LjL | The "deniers" (using the term very generally) have a tendency to get together on their silly ideas | 22:59 |
DocScrutinizer05 | re >>mandatory quarantine<< I got news for you: we GOT mandatory quarantine for flight passengers from risk zones. It's in the news this very moment | 23:00 |
LjL | While the more rational people end up fighting and disagreeing on everything | 23:00 |
LjL | If we don't calm down nothing good will come | 23:01 |
LjL | I'm the first in line who doesn't calm down and gets angry and flips out | 23:01 |
LjL | I know | 23:01 |
LjL | But... It isn't doing me any favors, trust me | 23:01 |
DocScrutinizer05 | >><LjL> If we don't calm down nothing good will come<< couldn't have put it better | 23:02 |
DocScrutinizer05 | hoing shutdown extremist won't result in a better world. Definitely | 23:03 |
raccoon_dog | You explain to me how to "calm down" when people around you refuse to wear masks, some of whom don't even believe the virus to be real. | 23:03 |
raccoon_dog | It's easy to say in some parts of the world. Not here. | 23:03 |
DocScrutinizer05 | raccoon_dog: do you think "shoot them all" will result in a more admirable mood at your place? | 23:04 |
raccoon_dog | I want a thing to happen which does not involve bloodshed or violence. | 23:05 |
raccoon_dog | Violence is not acceptable. | 23:05 |
de-facto | i stay 100% with what i said, i dont want to repeat it all again | 23:05 |
DocScrutinizer05 | can't tell you how much relief I feel for you saying THAT | 23:06 |
DocScrutinizer05 | I prolly couldn't take it yet another time | 23:07 |
raccoon_dog | Thanks, though I'm guessing you've run across people who think otherwise. :/ | 23:07 |
raccoon_dog | Which is depressing. | 23:07 |
LjL | virus to be real. | 23:08 |
LjL | 14,99[23:03] 99,99 12,99raccoon_dog:99,99 It's easy to say in some parts of the world. Not here. | 23:08 |
LjL | Okay, since you wanted to know | 23:08 |
LjL | I'm in Milan, Lombardy, Italy | 23:08 |
LjL | It is not easy to say | 23:09 |
LjL | Nevermind do | 23:09 |
raccoon_dog | That's not a good place for this, but let me ask this: are people there taking it seriously? | 23:09 |
raccoon_dog | As in, is everyone wearing a mask, they keep away, etc.? | 23:09 |
raccoon_dog | Self-isolating, all that. | 23:09 |
LjL | But I am saying it's necessary because if even DocScrutinizer05 and de-facto of all people end up fighting, we have no hope of any sort of united front like they'd like | 23:09 |
LjL | No | 23:09 |
LjL | Many are, many are not | 23:09 |
raccoon_dog | It doesn't matter if many are -- the problem is the ones who are *not*. That is not good. :S | 23:10 |
LjL | The US isn't absolutely unique and thinking that it is (both in good and bad ways) is often something that is a flaw in how people there reason | 23:10 |
Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): nCoV: Mexico's death toll from COVID-19 set to pass grim milestone of 150,000 → https://is.gd/5XVx2j | 23:11 |
raccoon_dog | I don't know what to tell you. I don't know the rationale for some people there not wearing masks, but the disturbing part here is the disproportional amount of people who don't even think the virus is real. | 23:12 |
raccoon_dog | Now *that* specific thing I am led to believe is almost uniquely an American thing. | 23:12 |
LjL | Well, it's not | 23:14 |
raccoon_dog | I don't know if that's good news or bad news. | 23:14 |
LjL | I've seen people deny, or report of other people denying, the evidence of coffins piling up despite it happening right next to them | 23:15 |
raccoon_dog | o.o | 23:15 |
LjL | I've seen that from all over the world | 23:15 |
raccoon_dog | Yeah, that's the kind of denial I'm talking about here. | 23:15 |
raccoon_dog | A kind of denial that borders on genuine delusion. | 23:15 |
raccoon_dog | And if you politely tell an anti-masker to stay away, the response is almost always negative. | 23:17 |
DocScrutinizer05 | my approach I try to always follow - though sometimes I fail on following - is: don't shout >>we need to forbid X, ideally forever<< but rather ask >>what do we need to change, so we can allow X and make it even better while avoiding all the obvious downsides it has now?<< | 23:20 |
raccoon_dog | I have a hard time following your >> << notation. Are those like quotes? | 23:20 |
DocScrutinizer05 | yes. OK you're the first one to tell me, I'll consider changing this habit | 23:21 |
LjL | Yes, German quotation marks except expressed in ASCII | 23:21 |
LjL | »like this« | 23:22 |
raccoon_dog | Some languages do use symbols like that for quotation marks (guillemets) | 23:22 |
raccoon_dog | Righ. Those things. | 23:22 |
raccoon_dog | DocScrutinizer05: No, it's fine. Just asking to make sure. | 23:22 |
LjL | Yes but German uses them in a mirrored way compared to «French» | 23:22 |
raccoon_dog | Or Spanish. | 23:22 |
raccoon_dog | That's what confused me. | 23:22 |
raccoon_dog | iirc German also uses ,,something like this'' | 23:22 |
LjL | It also uses „quotstion ... Yes | 23:23 |
raccoon_dog | Right. | 23:23 |
DocScrutinizer05 | I'm used to use them for direkt citation of verbatim speech, while I use "this" to mark "symbolic" terms or sort of irony | 23:23 |
Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Blue envelope plan for Scottish jab dates delayed: The first tranche of vaccination appointments for over 70s in Scotland will be sent in white envelopes. → https://is.gd/5tZ7Xp | 23:23 |
raccoon_dog | I see. | 23:23 |
blkshp | Bob: "this is how we use quotes" | 23:28 |
blkshp | "shutup" said Caroline. Though she'd had some beers she was 'sober'. | 23:29 |
blkshp | haha :D | 23:29 |
LjL | There is yet another way to report direct speech, which is used in Italian (perhaps decreasingly commonly, though) and I think maybe in Spanish and French | 23:30 |
LjL | – Hi, how are you? | 23:30 |
LjL | – I have COVID, and you? | 23:30 |
blkshp | Specifically with an em dash? | 23:30 |
LjL | It's amenable to be used for dialogues, where you want to skip the whole "and then she said", " and he replied" dance | 23:31 |
LjL | Yes | 23:31 |
LjL | Em dashes are otherwise unused in Italian, at least we don't use them for parentheticals | 23:31 |
blkshp | I havve never used one in my life | 23:32 |
LjL | It's a matter of style in English, but you see them often (sometimes reduced to just hyphens though when people are simply typing on their keyboards) | 23:32 |
blkshp | My keyboard has a hyphen, no dash or em dash so I don't use them. | 23:33 |
LjL | Well if you ever use hyphens (or the -- or --- trick) to indicate parentheticals, you are effectively using the em dash convention within the restrictions of ASCII, similarly to how Doc uses >> and << to "emulate" » and « | 23:34 |
LjL | Incidentally I'm on my phone right now so this is all sorts of fun to type, I mean tap | 23:35 |
blkshp | To be honest, im not really sure wat you mean by parentheticals | 23:35 |
blkshp | Programming thing? | 23:35 |
raccoon_dog | En dashes are also used, with spaces, in British English. For parentheticals, I mean, and as punctuation in general. | 23:35 |
raccoon_dog | Like em dashes are in American English. | 23:35 |
raccoon_dog | Oh. Ugh. Never mind. I saw blkshp and though this was another channel. | 23:36 |
raccoon_dog | Disregard. | 23:36 |
raccoon_dog | s/though/thought | 23:36 |
DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: this is a tad non-compatible with longer lines that also have parts that aren't direct speech | 23:36 |
gigasu_shida | lol ljl can't help turning #covid into #linguistics or #english momentarily | 23:36 |
blkshp | Sorry, we are a little off topic for here! :D | 23:36 |
blkshp | Sorry! | 23:36 |
raccoon_dog | XD | 23:36 |
LjL | DocScrutinizer05: yes, we also use "quotation marks". It depends on the use case | 23:37 |
LjL | gigasu_shida: I probably can't, it's true | 23:37 |
LjL | I only know a couple of things and two of them have to do with language | 23:37 |
gigasu_shida | lol | 23:38 |
DocScrutinizer05 | I appreciate imroving my english. I mean, where do you learn *correct* enhlish once you left school? | 23:39 |
blkshp | English* | 23:40 |
gigasu_shida | once you've left school* | 23:40 |
LjL | The internet, with some judicious application of discernment and consciousness about different registers | 23:40 |
DocScrutinizer05 | I'm afraid my English gets worse rather than better, every year | 23:40 |
raccoon_dog | DocScrutinizer05: The common way is to consume English-language media and interact with native speakers. | 23:40 |
LjL | DocScrutinizer05: I have that feeling too lately, I suspect it has to do with aging ;( | 23:40 |
raccoon_dog | That's a general thing, yeah. | 23:41 |
gigasu_shida | some ppl reach a plateau and never get better beyond a certain point, some people (like ljl) go beyond perfection and begin teaching natives how to write better in english | 23:41 |
DocScrutinizer05 | raccoon_dog: my problem is I usually can't even tell apart native speakers from those who got worse english skills than I do | 23:41 |
raccoon_dog | Oh, yeah. I was going to say -- there are quite a few mistakes made by even educated native speakers. | 23:42 |
raccoon_dog | DocScrutinizer05: The most common way, unfortunately, is via spoken language. The accent gives it away. | 23:42 |
raccoon_dog | I say "unfortunately" because that's not easy to do nowadays because of, well, you-know-what. | 23:42 |
blkshp | raccoon_dog and I will activate ultra correction mode. | 23:42 |
DocScrutinizer05 | english, even | 23:42 |
blkshp | English* | 23:42 |
Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +24864 cases (now 3.6 million), +516 deaths (now 97939) since 16 hours ago — Switzerland: +15 deaths (now 9065) since 21 hours ago | 23:42 |
raccoon_dog | lol @ blkshp | 23:43 |
blkshp | :D | 23:43 |
DocScrutinizer05 | well, I write all lowercase even in german. That's actually a pathetic habit | 23:43 |
raccoon_dog | My understanding is that German requires all nouns, even nonproper ones, to be capitalized, though ... ? | 23:44 |
blkshp | I've been known to annoy people out of bad habits. | 23:44 |
gigasu_shida | writing in all lowercase is good | 23:44 |
blkshp | Well* German* habit.* | 23:44 |
DocScrutinizer05 | raccoon_dog: yep | 23:44 |
blkshp | gigasu_shida: No, not good. Poor. | 23:44 |
blkshp | I will shutup when people get bored ;) | 23:45 |
LjL | gigasu_shida: "beyond perfection" is ridiculous, get over worshipping me, you should have had ample opportunity by now to notice I'm quirky in a number of way. A friend likes (to my chagrin) to list short English words that rhyme or that look like they rhyme but don't, and quizzes me on the pronunciation and/or meaning. Then he's surprised that I don't know many of the ones he considers simple or even trivial. But for the most part, those are words you can | 23:45 |
LjL | hear in casual spoken language much more frequently than you read them in written language or hear them in a prepared YouTube speech. So I think the fact that my words tend to be Latinate or so makes native speakers assume that I must know the "simpler" words. But those are a different category | 23:45 |
blkshp | Play the auto-antonym game | 23:46 |
DocScrutinizer05 | on topic: can anybody tell me why here in germany everybody is haunting like bad for the new variants? What would change when they find a case of B1.1.7? Isn't the supposed procedure all the same? | 23:46 |
DocScrutinizer05 | like mad, too | 23:47 |
gigasu_shida | i didn't start worshipping you until you became a virologist btw | 23:47 |
LjL | I think sequencing and following the variants is crucial to keeping (or forming) a decent idea of what is going on | 23:47 |
gigasu_shida | haunting? | 23:47 |
LjL | gigasu_shida: I never "became a virologist" though | 23:47 |
raccoon_dog | Well, what one considers "simple" or "trivial" is kind of just that person's opinion. If you're used to digesting highbrow literature that uses more obscure, recondite words, you may subconsciously absorb them and think they are "normal". | 23:47 |
gigasu_shida | ok, an armchair virologist | 23:48 |
MKVA51- | hope all are doing well? | 23:51 |
DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: well, the idea for the scientific thrill, yes. The measures are all the same, no matter if we had zilch or 100% VoC ratio | 23:51 |
DocScrutinizer05 | no? | 23:51 |
LjL | raccoon_dog: there is a baseline to what native speakers tend to perceive as more everyday, though. It tends to be Germanic words, short ones, and phrasal verbs. English is very much a "dual vocabulary" language (even more than two if we dissect the stratification, but let's make it two). There are probably a bunch of meanings of "get" combined with some adverbs that I don't grasp or at least don't use naturally, while at the same time surprising people with | 23:51 |
LjL | words like "refractory" that they have to look up. That is due to my native language having a partial match with English lexicon | 23:51 |
raccoon_dog | LjL: Yeah, I hear you. People who've studied Latin and Classic Greek are also at an advantage for that very reason. I'm guessing your first language is Italian -- a Romance language, so it shares a lot of things with Latin, which then in turn helps with English. | 23:52 |
LjL | DocScrutinizer05: many things done for the "scientific thrill" turn out to have very practical applications that weren't initially obvious, and I think science would be a much lesser thing if it didn't research things just for the sake of knowing. But anyway, given there are tensions about the vaccination strategy to use, I'd wager whether we have strong presence of a variant that spreads faster and/or is more lethal will change policymakers' opinions on which | 23:53 |
LjL | to use | 23:53 |
DocScrutinizer05 | re "English": you know when 5 people have a business meeting and exactly one of them is a native English speaker, then after the meeting exactly 4 made their point in the discussion and 4 wonder what was the message of the fifth ;-D | 23:53 |
DocScrutinizer05 | LjL: ((vaccination strategy)) very valid point indeed | 23:55 |
raccoon_dog | And, yeah ."Refractory" is one of those obscure words, I guess. | 23:55 |
DocScrutinizer05 | see? ;-) yet another proprietary punctuation | 23:55 |
LjL | DocScrutinizer05: also, we have many variables and many confounders, and we must fight to reduce them. Is the curve going up/down because the NPIs are/aren't working, or because a different variant is taking hold? Are deaths and hospitalizations going up/down because we've gotten better/worse at treating, or because a different variant is around? That is important | 23:55 |
DocScrutinizer05 | yetg one more very valid point. Thanks a lot | 23:56 |
DocScrutinizer05 | once again I been too focused on the mere basics: R_eff | 23:57 |
DocScrutinizer05 | which seems nailed by nine inch nails to 0.9 | 23:58 |
Brainstorm | New from Virology.ws: Trial By Error: Game-Changing Articles in The Guardian and The New York Times: By David Tuller, DrPH The relationship between what is being called long-Covid and ME/CFS (and its variants) is complex. The conditions overlap in ways that are poorly understood, and the mechanisms through which they produce such significant [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/ToZACh | 23:59 |
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