| bin_bash | the size of the data is a good point too. regarding HIPAA/privacy i assumed de-facto wanted anonymized data though | 00:06 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | <de-facto> but for example the raw dataset for a vaccine trial is not 100GB - it may be 100kB<< LOL! just go figure they store a passport pjoto of say 50kB per each of 40k participants of such study. Your math is quite flawed | 00:07 |
| pwr22 | Hmm, are South Africa only using J&J now or are they taking a more UK like approach of giving out every dose of every type they can manage? | 00:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | add to that a few really decent photos of dermal side reactions and you're way beyond those 100GB | 00:12 |
| bin_bash | DocScrutinizer05: yeah | 00:13 |
| de-facto | how would a passport photo be relevant for their efficacy claims? of course such datasets would have to be published in pseudonymized form. its not about if my math is flawed (i did not calculate anything btw), its about if the dataset is of a size that may be problematic to publish and i think for publishing a dataset of a vaccine trial its size is not the main concern | 00:13 |
| de-facto | i dont see your point DocScrutinizer05 | 00:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how would they identify person in e.g. manaus? | 00:14 |
| de-facto | participant 05 | 00:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tatoom that on their forehead? | 00:14 |
| de-facto | lol come on. | 00:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | naj, you do. Those studies don't work like day parole in prison. Those peopleoften don't even have ID documents | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and a few photos of the injection reaction dwarf that passport thumbnail | 00:17 |
| de-facto | ok i see, any dataset is simply too large to publish. no chance for transparency. makes sense now. | 00:17 |
| de-facto | that must be the reason. | 00:18 |
| LjL | pwr22, well, the news said they were *stopping* AstraZeneca, so my understanding is they got to approve and start using J&J real quick to substitute for that | 00:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you had said >>it may be 100kB... per person/record<< I would have gone >>hardly will suffice<< | 00:18 |
| pwr22 | LjL: I thought they reverted that? | 00:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: I don't know what's that called you're doing there but it's a) pathetic and b) not helpful at all | 00:19 |
| LjL | pwr22, i don't know, i said i *heard* of that but it was literally hearsay, i haven't seen an announcement, on the other hand i've seen they rushed to use J&J (first in the world to use it, apparently) | 00:20 |
| de-facto | yeah end of discussion, if you start with insults again. | 00:20 |
| de-facto | gn8 | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I??? | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LOL | 00:20 |
| LjL | woah | 00:20 |
| LjL | i don't even know what to say | 00:20 |
| LjL | first it was "yes" "no" "yes" "no" | 00:20 |
| pwr22 | <LjL "Peter, i don't know, i said i *h"> Yeah, UK was one of the first in the world to use one or more of the vaccines too I think? I think rushing just means desperation 😀 | 00:21 |
| LjL | now de-facto was clearly a bit bummed with the contrarian-ness, you call him pathetic? | 00:21 |
| LjL | that's not a nice word | 00:21 |
| LjL | i'm not laughing out loud about it | 00:21 |
| bin_bash | https://apnews.com/article/world-news-coronavirus-pandemic-africa-south-africa-coronavirus-vaccine-3f54526ca5bfca84eadfaeaea5ade5d5 | 00:21 |
| bin_bash | pwr22: ^^ | 00:21 |
| bin_bash | one problem is that j&j doesnt have a huge stockpile of vaccines | 00:21 |
| LjL | also really it may be late now to bring this rather "yes-no-yes-no"-y debate out of the grave but really you were saying things that could easily be compatible (or at least *more* compatible than they ended up being) if only you'd have given some provisos, both of you | 00:22 |
| LjL | like: yes, data may have biases, so the raw data should be accompanied by a description of the biases found in the data and how it was corrected | 00:22 |
| pwr22 | Yeah vote from me on the "lets not insult" train | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I call pathetic a >>ok i see, any dataset is simply too large to publish. no chance for transparency. makes sense now. that must be the reason.<< as reply to my explaining to him in loving detail how a datasxet is never 100k for a study with 40k participants | 00:22 |
| LjL | or: data may be sensitive, so there have to be procedures to ensure people cannot be identified in medical data | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's evil dark arrogant sarcasm | 00:23 |
| pwr22 | DocScrutinizer05: the insult really doesn't add anything and kind of just hurts you position imo 😟 | 00:23 |
| LjL | on the other hand, just insisting that "no" is the way it works on study data release doesn't address any of the concerns, so if there are for example situations where the data are too large, okay, it should be treated in an ad-hoc manner and described, but why just "no" in general? | 00:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which insult? | 00:23 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, he made a sarcastic comment | 00:24 |
| LjL | you called it pathetic | 00:24 |
| LjL | my take is: don't | 00:24 |
| LjL | he clearly was already annoyed by the insistence from you and bin_bash that data JUST couldn't get released in any case for this or that other reason | 00:24 |
| LjL | you pile on to that by calling him or his annoyance pathetic? | 00:24 |
| pwr22 | It's perfectly fine to say "Hmm, I don't agree" | 00:24 |
| LjL | let's have a tiny bit of compassion | 00:24 |
| pwr22 | Or some such nicer way of saying things | 00:25 |
| LjL | or empathy | 00:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HUH? | 00:25 |
| LjL | or whatever you'd like to call it | 00:25 |
| * bin_bash is very confused now | 00:25 | |
| pwr22 | Infact, I think you could have made the same statement just without the insult ha | 00:25 |
| LjL | sigh | 00:25 |
| bolovanos | de-facto, + for advocating obvious. Not that mass will be capable of understanding, but that minority is crucial for overall plausibility. | 00:25 |
| LjL | we're all very sick and tired of things. i wish we could be talking here to end up *less*, not *more* sick and tired, especially if means of each other too | 00:26 |
| LjL | i don't know how to do it, but the way this conversation went definitely wasn't it | 00:26 |
| pwr22 | Heh, could have been worse LjL 😀 Could have been like that other matrix room | 00:26 |
| * pwr22 shudders | 00:26 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please check your backscroll, I never even participated in that "data JUST couldn't get released", I even claimed the sequences of BNT *are* published contrary to what de-facto stated. Then I went pout to come back to find a >>but for example the raw dataset for a vaccine trial is not 100GB - it may be 100kB<<<< | 00:27 |
| LjL | i've checked all the backscroll | 00:27 |
| LjL | after i'm done, i still stand by my belief that you shouldn't call someone or what they say pathetic, unless you're okay with the idea you're insulting them | 00:28 |
| LjL | clearly i'm not helping either, but i don't know what else to say/do except maybe shut up and hope you'll all forget about this by tomorrow's time | 00:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what I called pathetic was *his* insult on me by claiming I was arguing in an idiotic way like >>ok i see, any dataset is simply too large to publish. no chance for transparency. makes sense now. that must be the reason<< | 00:29 |
| LjL | pwr22, i think it's a very different situation. a room with... nonsense in it is one type of problem, a room i consider decent but where people end up angry at each other and needing a "break" and flipping out (i've done it too, a few times, to be fair) is not what i'd like to have, especially when people end up leaving, as has already happened repeatedly. maybe it's inevitable because we're just stressed and this topic is divisive. but these days i'm not | 00:31 |
| LjL | sure what topic isn't. i guess the people who fare best are those who just refuse to check the news or discuss current events (and among the few people i know, they are getting more and more) | 00:31 |
| LjL | DocScrutinizer05, except that's not an insult, that's a frustrated way of expressing the fact that it seemed like everyone was against his idea of transparency for every possible reason | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I stand by that: an insult is pathetic, particularly such insult. And calling such insult pathetic isn't itself an insult, it's the truth | 00:32 |
| bin_bash | idk i dont think sticking your head in the sand is any healthier | 00:32 |
| LjL | why can i see this as a third party but the first parties involved can't see it? | 00:32 |
| LjL | it does often seem like that when there are arguments | 00:32 |
| LjL | i'm sure it's seemed like that when i was *in* the argument | 00:32 |
| LjL | it's just... you DO read the backscroll as a third party, and think, "wow, did it have to go that way? there's like several points at which there could have been a bit of agreement" | 00:33 |
| LjL | bin_bash, well me neither, hence i made this channel. but it is difficult. | 00:33 |
| de-facto | i was talking about the full unbiased raw dataset they base their claims upon i did not calculate anything but gave the estimate that the relevant data in a vaccine trial is not of such an order that publishing it will be problematic because of the size of that dataset (hence my 100GB vs 100kB guess, the exact numbers dont play a role and i did not claim that to be exact). | 00:34 |
| de-facto | i was trying to discuss that on the plausible problems involved with the nature of a dataset (such as personal data privacy protection or also the raw size of a dataset if its of different nature) | 00:35 |
| de-facto | now constructing examples why it cant be exactly 100kB and therefore there cant be any chance to publish that complete (for the analysis) raw dataset is not a very constructive way of discussion, hence my sarcasm reply (apologies for sarcasm, i already way a bit annoyed by that discussion) | 00:37 |
| LjL | de-facto, that's why i thought the whole "yes" "no" "yes" "no" part wasn't helpful (and *yes*, i acknowledge DocScrutinizer05 was mostly NOT involved with that, he came in later, but i think maybe he didn't realize that he came in at a point where you were feeling already kinda frustrated) | 00:37 |
| LjL | and that is, because i think there are those problems involved with the nature of a dataset, but at the same time, those problems should be handled as best as possible while having as much transparency as possible | 00:37 |
| LjL | we can't have the cake and eat it too, but we can have a bit of the cake left, and eat a bit | 00:38 |
| de-facto | i prefer to discuss on a mostly objective (without personal blaming math is wrong or claims are pathetic, whatever etc) and constructive (in the way of the most beneficial way of all participants) way | 00:39 |
| LjL | de-facto, as i said i didn't like the "pathetic" label, but to play devil's advocate for a moment (not saying DocScrutinizer05 is the devil, it's just an expression :P) it's true that the sarcastic thing you said, like, "okay, then everything is too big, we can't do anything, fine" was... i don't think it was an insult, but was clearly meant to say "you are exaggerating and at this point your objections make no sense", no? | 00:40 |
| LjL | you... three, will you get offended if i mention you have one thing in common, which is the ability to be quite stubborn? | 00:41 |
| LjL | which is sometimes a good thing | 00:41 |
| LjL | but if it "burns" a discussion like a forest and leaves no trees left, not so much anymore | 00:41 |
| * LjL is full of random analogies tonight | 00:41 | |
| de-facto | for example i remember in the vaccine trials there were some questions arising (e.g. about the number of elderly people or the exact ages of cases etc) that would have been possible to investigate further by a look a the raw data and by reconstruction of their selection (hence complete in a sense that other people also could reconstruct their analysis from the raw data) | 00:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Diseases, Conditions, Syndromes: Impact of COVID-19 in Africa 'vastly underestimated' warn researchers → https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-02-impact-covid-africa-vastly-underestimated.html | 00:42 |
| LjL | de-facto, for the record, in general i agree with you that the raw dataset leading to a study should be released, compatibly with privacy and reasonable capabilities and expectations | 00:42 |
| LjL | and towards the end of the discussion i think you were all almost kind of agreeing (by disagreeing) on that... i.e. that it would be nice, but there are problems to overcome. but also you were a bit sick of the discussion and it all ended badly | 00:43 |
| LjL | maybe i'm meta-discussing it too much now. maybe we should just sleep and read the discussion again tomorrow... or not, just start afresh | 00:44 |
| LjL | i'm tired. i have my own problems, that were there before COVID, and now with COVID i'm just more tired. i assume it's similar for most of you. sometimes arguing is a way of venting this frustration and tiredness with the whole situation. but it's not a *good* way because when i do it, i realize that yes, i fill my time with something else than just worry, but anger is just different, not better | 00:45 |
| * LjL will end the monologue | 00:46 | |
| de-facto | maybe thats all just wishful thinking but sometimes i have an idea for some question and how to look for that in a dataset and then i get frustrated by counting pixels on a BMP to get a best estimate for that | 00:52 |
| pwr22 | I personally am pro makings things open as much as possible | 00:53 |
| de-facto | for example that one with trying to estimate the protection from 1st dose of BNT162b2 | 00:53 |
| pwr22 | Data, code, etc | 00:53 |
| pwr22 | Helps people work together 🙂 | 00:53 |
| de-facto | basically i was extracting a picture from a pdf to count pixels and guess how their software would plot the raw data in order to get some numbers that might be somewhat in the correct region | 00:54 |
| de-facto | i very much would have preferred to have a git clone and then explore their direct raw numbers | 00:55 |
| de-facto | at every stage of their analysis | 00:55 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, that doesn't sound fun! I'd say you're pretty dedicated to go as far as counting pixels | 00:55 |
| de-facto | yeah and in general if data already exists why not make it available for further analysis? it probably would be beneficial for all participants, just look on how open source software profits from each others | 00:56 |
| de-facto | sure maybe that is too idealistic, but that would be my wishful thinking making information available to everyone in a constructive way | 00:57 |
| pwr22 | That's the dream 🙂 | 00:59 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: Prior COVID-19 significantly reduces the risk of subsequent infection, but reinfections are seen after eight months (82 votes) | https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0163445321000104?dgcid=author | https://redd.it/lm0mc2 | 01:03 |
| ubLIX[m] | that's interesting | 01:04 |
| ubLIX[m] | #bang | 01:04 |
| LjL | hmm, i was just clicking on it | 01:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a pity when people resort to obviously incorrect weak arguments to defend a good thing, making it too easy for anybody do disagree with them. Even worse when they don't even realize it and start snapping and demeaning the one who tries to explain to them. | 01:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Florida Governor Accused Of 'Playing Politics' With COVID-19 Vaccine → https://is.gd/7JZ7wy | 01:07 |
| dTal | I wonder if "8 months" is less to do with immunity duration and more to do with the continued evolution of variants | 01:07 |
| de-facto | i did not bring up the data size argument (as i think its irrelevant for vaccine trials). i am not further discussing it anymore, even if you indirectly try to. if you want to join a discussion please try to do so in a constructive way next time. | 01:11 |
| pwr22 | Can we let the argument go now? I think we all know where everyone stands and nothing more good will come from it 🙂 | 01:13 |
| dTal | how are you de-facto | 01:14 |
| de-facto | im ok still having a headache from my cold but im glad its not covid | 01:15 |
| pwr22 | Ah snap, I've got some sort of cold and been tired and sleeping a lot | 01:16 |
| pwr22 | but also not covid so that's good | 01:16 |
| dTal | Oh good, negative test? | 01:16 |
| de-facto | yeah normal life also continues and part of that is a normal cold unfortunately | 01:16 |
| de-facto | yeah | 01:16 |
| dTal | scary that you were able to catch a cold | 01:17 |
| de-facto | exactly my thinking too, it could have been covid too, i still am not sure where i got it from, but i know some at work had a cough | 01:17 |
| de-facto | i thought wearing an FFP2 would prevent me from catching it, but maybe it did not fit airtight enough around my nose? | 01:18 |
| LjL | i think it's a pipe dream to think that an FFP2 *prevents* you from catching viral illnesses, even if it's well fitted... | 01:19 |
| LjL | i think it lowers probabilities, but you have to be realistic about it, it's not a vaccine | 01:19 |
| LjL | *cough* | 01:19 |
| LjL | it's not a *good* vaccine | 01:19 |
| dTal | I dare to believe it about a P3 | 01:20 |
| LjL | dTal, maybe, maybe, i don't know. i think the practical factors that may not be obvious are probably many | 01:20 |
| de-facto | the problem is when working together on the same monitor, even with masks on | 01:20 |
| dTal | Although I suppose there exists some viral load which will get through, the hope is that you're not likely to encounter such strong conditions | 01:20 |
| LjL | dTal, well, thanks to your daring government and their penchant for experimenting on humans, we may soon know! | 01:21 |
| dTal | something I don't understand is this "minimum infectious load" concept - is it statistical, or is there some threshold below which you simply won't get infected? | 01:21 |
| dTal | Is two exposures of 50 virions different than one exposure of 100 virions? | 01:21 |
| LjL | i think it's both statistical and something we currently handwave without really having a clue | 01:21 |
| LjL | which is probably the main reason why the UK wants to run that experiment | 01:21 |
| LjL | since i doubt they can make useful findings on treatment, perhaps something on vaccines | 01:22 |
| LjL | but what they can do is find out whether there is "a" minimum viral load | 01:22 |
| LjL | too bad people will have to be made sick on purpose to find out... | 01:22 |
| LjL | dTal, anyway, Doc earlier pointed me to a paper where they tested how the *viable* viral load in an (artificial) aerosol changed in time. that's still missing many variables, since the virus is neither being emitted by a human nor received by a human. but still, it's one of the few such experiments i've seen where they actually cultured the virus in cells, instead of just checking how much RNA they could PCR | 01:24 |
| LjL | you might already have seen it, it's not recent, but i didn't remember seeing it before | 01:25 |
| LjL | %link The influence of temperature, humidity, and simulated sunlight on the infectivity of SARS-CoV-2 in aerosols | 01:25 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02786826.2020.1829536 (The influence of temperature, humidity, and simulated sunlight on the infectivity of SARS-CoV-2 in aerosols) studies the viability of actual infectious virus in a simulated aerosol scenario, finding that it decreases by 90% in about 5 minutes if exposed to 40°C, 20% humidity and sunlight, as expected [... want %more?] | 01:25 |
| LjL | (yes that's a very specific query :P) | 01:26 |
| de-facto | maybe there is something like an average inactivation or removal rate for foreign particles or virions per surface area of mucus or such? | 01:28 |
| de-facto | not sure but id assume they would have some kind of model for such challenge trials | 01:28 |
| LjL | my general impression during this year is that they aren't *full* of models on how airborne diseases spread, at least not good ones | 01:29 |
| LjL | has been* | 01:29 |
| LjL | granted, i'll be curious to see how exactly they make this challenge trial | 01:29 |
| LjL | though i disagree with it being made | 01:29 |
| de-facto | so maybe they want to determine which kind of initial contaminating dose is to be associated with a certain probability of infection (in terms on ongoing exponential viral replication phase) | 01:30 |
| LjL | maybe, but i don't think they can do that with a sample of 90 people | 01:30 |
| LjL | to associate various doses with a *probability*, they'd need a cohort for each dose, i think? | 01:30 |
| LjL | so like... they could test 9 different doses, on 10 people each | 01:30 |
| LjL | not great confidence intervals resulting | 01:30 |
| LjL | unless 90 people are just the initial recruits and then they plan on expanding it... | 01:31 |
| de-facto | yeah id assume they want to start with a small amount of people in order to demonstrate its somewhat safe what they intend to do and at the same time being able to do some useful claims from that | 01:31 |
| LjL | wikipedia goes "According to medical ethicists, methods of conducting clinical trials by human challenge testing have improved over the 21st century to satisfy ethical, safety, and regulatory requirements, becoming scientifically acceptable and ethically valid as long as participants are well-informed and volunteer freely" | 01:32 |
| LjL | can you ever guarantee "freedom" when you know that are always people who need money? | 01:33 |
| de-facto | good question, i guess that means they cant accept participants that would absolutely require that money for their everyday living | 01:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Reunion: +655 cases (now 11562), +1 deaths (now 48) since 7 days ago — France: +27205 cases (now 3.5 million), +310 deaths (now 83122) since 22 hours ago — Germany: +9586 cases (now 2.4 million), +538 deaths (now 67074) since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +3719 cases (now 1.0 million), +93 deaths (now 15034) since 22 hours ago | 01:34 |
| LjL | https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Human_challenge_study&type=revision&diff=1007411196&oldid=1007058447 | 01:38 |
| LjL | uh, bye Brainstorm | 01:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | de-facto: sorry, I won't accept you as the one deciding about whether I may speak or not. Actually I even doubt you are able to decide what's "constructive", probably your definition of the term is flawed | 01:42 |
| LjL | oh good grief | 01:43 |
| LjL | he said HE wouldn't discuss it anymore | 01:43 |
| LjL | but guess what, i can decide whether you may speak or not | 01:43 |
| LjL | and now i'm telling you to DROP THIS for now | 01:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hAVE FUN! | 01:44 |
| LjL | or else, if you want to drive de-facto crazy so he ends up leaving, rest assured that in the case you'd be leaving too | 01:44 |
| LjL | which i expect... yeah. | 01:44 |
| LjL | pwr22, now how about de-facto leaves too just to make me a perfect predictor? | 01:44 |
| LjL | jesus christ | 01:44 |
| de-facto | lets please rest this now | 01:45 |
| pwr22 | 👐 | 01:46 |
| LjL | well, sure, now we *can*, meanwhile he's left though, which i'm not happy about | 01:46 |
| de-facto | neither am I | 01:47 |
| LjL | i know :( | 01:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: California teachers union launches ads on school reopening risks → https://is.gd/muR8qH | 02:44 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for St. Barthelemy: +57 cases (now 512) since 6 days ago | 02:54 |
| LjL | i posted a comment on that school thing https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/lm9stp/california_teachers_union_launches_ads_on_school/gnu6nbq/ | 03:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +23662 cases (now 3.5 million) since 19 hours ago — United Kingdom: +9540 cases (now 4.1 million) since 19 hours ago — Netherlands: +3199 cases (now 1.0 million), +88 deaths (now 15056) since 19 hours ago — Canada: +3381 cases (now 835917) since 19 hours ago | 04:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Strong decline in coronavirus across England since January, React study shows → https://is.gd/yIvEXx | 04:10 |
| LjL | de-facto, ↑ again information gained from the REACT study that tests random samples of people, at least the UK listens to you | 04:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pfizer says South African variant could significantly reduce vaccine protection → https://is.gd/qg071s | 05:00 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add vaccines official names to the headings ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/89af81a3d43fe0fd76eb778ed0526c99a808d7ba ) | 05:27 | |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: Antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 protect against re-infection during outbreaks in care homes, September and October 2020 (81 votes) | https://www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2021.26.5.2100092 | https://redd.it/llzpzr | 05:28 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Antigua and Barb.: +39 cases (now 525) since 18 hours ago — New Zealand: +4 cases (now 2344) since 23 hours ago | 05:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: PHAC monitoring reports of 2 COVID-19 variants merging into heavily mutated hybrid → https://is.gd/cLOg6q | 06:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Inside Israel’s ultra-orthodox jewish communities during Covid-19 pandemic → https://is.gd/m4Daam | 06:14 |
| Brainstorm | New preprint: Moderators of changes in smoking, drinking, and quitting behaviour associated with the first Covid-19 lockdown in England by Sarah E Jackson et al, made available as preprint on 2021-02-17 at https://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2021.02.15.21251766 [... want %more?] | 07:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +2677 cases (now 743882), +43 deaths (now 21793) since a day ago | 07:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Seven days in medicine: 10-16 February 2021: Covid-19WHO recommends Oxford vaccine including in over 65sThe World Health Organization recommended the use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca covid-19 vaccine even in countries tackling new variants. WHO... → https://is.gd/vcZb3L | 07:53 |
| CoronaBot | /r/coronavirus: Why Did We Ever Send Sick Kids to School? An overemphasis on attendance puts students’ health at risk and instills the value of working through illness. The pandemic has made it clear how dangerous that is. (10070 votes) | https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2021/02/when-schools-punish-sick-kids-poor-attendance/618045/ | https://redd.it/lm2c3s | 07:53 |
| -Synapsestorm- ⭕ Earthquake! Séisme! 6.1 M tremor, registered by alomax,scevent, occurred 19 minutes ago (06:37:34 UTC), during daytime, Vanuatu Islands Region (-19.25, 167.59), ↓4 km likely felt 280 km away (in Port Vila…) by 44000 people — Webcams: https://www.windy.com/webcams/1611894429 (quakesearch.geonet.org.nz) | 07:57 | |
| -Synapsestorm- ⭕ Earthquake! Séisme! 6.2 Mw tremor, registered by EMSC, occurred 27 minutes ago (06:37:31 UTC), during daytime, Vanuatu Islands (-18.93, 168.02) ± 3 km, ↓25 km likely felt 310 km away (in Port Vila…) by 44000 people — Webcams: https://www.windy.com/webcams/1611894429 (www.seismicportal.eu) | 08:05 | |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Art and Culture: One year of pandemic: A hopeful Capital waits to be resuscitated → https://is.gd/6t5A0T | 08:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +18269 cases (now 3.5 million), +129 deaths (now 83197) since 11 hours ago — United Kingdom: +6228 cases (now 4.1 million), +284 deaths (now 119046) since 14 hours ago — Lombardy, Italy: +1764 cases (now 567483), +29 deaths (now 27883) since a day ago — Netherlands: +4055 cases (now 1.0 million), +79 deaths (now 15078) since 16 hours ago | 09:01 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Comunicazioni del Presidente Draghi alla Camera ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/comunicazioni-del-presidente-draghi-alla-camera/16228 ) | 09:05 | |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | February 18, 2021: The World Health Organization maintains up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. You can find answers to frequently asked questions about Covid-19 and vaccines in our FAQ . → https://is.gd/iC2OzZ | 09:08 |
| andrew_znc | .cases Shanghai | 09:30 |
| Brainstorm | andrew_znc: In Shanghai, China, there have been 1769 confirmed cases (0.0% of the population) and 7 deaths (0.4% of cases) as of 29 minutes ago. Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.1% (assuming deaths/cases with ⅔ undetected) and less than 0.4% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Shanghai for time series data. | 09:30 |
| andrew_znc | .help | 09:30 |
| Brainstorm | andrew_znc: Hi, I am LjL's bot! Say %modules or %commands to me in private to see my features. | 09:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Wearable technology: covid-19 and the rise of remote clinical monitoring: In the age of covid-19, digital devices worn by patients are increasingly being piloted to monitor those who might need hospital admission or who have recently been discharged.In a scheme in north... → https://is.gd/l1GD6m | 09:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca, COVID-19 Vaccine (ChAdOx1-S [recombinant]), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 29/01/2021, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/5m4O5a | 10:11 |
| zutt | %cases sweden | 10:11 |
| Brainstorm | zutt: In Sweden, there have been 622102 confirmed cases (6.0% of the population) and 12569 deaths (2.0% of cases) as of 17 hours ago. 5.7 million tests were performed (10.9% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Sweden for time series data. | 10:11 |
| bolovanos__ | bsl for covid - 2? found this shorturl.at/fjI46 | 10:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from Emma Hodcroft: @firefoxx66: Today's the day! If you'd like to hear about phylogenetics & #SARSCoV2, and in particular our work on variant tracking (featuring 20E (EU1)) tune in today to the @cmmid_lshtm seminar! → https://is.gd/ecGxBE | 10:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from ProPublica: Dying on the Waitlist: by David Armstrong and Marshall Allen ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power. Sign up to receive our biggest stories as soon as they’re published. In early December, Miguel Fernandez lay unconscious in the intensive care unit at a Los Angeles area hospital. A mechanical [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/c3p8jG | 11:23 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +7688 cases (now 2.4 million) since 18 hours ago | 11:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Food & Wine: How the pandemic prompted home chefs to establish small businesses → https://is.gd/V5iOIn | 12:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Atlantic: The Vaccine-Dosing Debate Has Been a Messaging Nightmare: The debates began as 2020 ended and the first vaccines were headed toward authorization. Skip the second dose, some researchers proposed —just one prick of the Pfizer-BioNTech or the Moderna formulation might be enough to do the trick. Jab No. 2 is crucial, others [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/axzk9J | 13:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Anne Longfield: Children must be at the heart of “building back better”: “It’s impossible to overstate how damaging the past year has been for many children—particularly those who were already disadvantaged. Covid is the biggest challenge to our society in 70 years. But... → https://is.gd/TPfpOi | 14:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): CoronavirusEU: Are Estonia and Moldova in Lockdown right now? → https://is.gd/8sYvkz | 14:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science-Based Medicine: The effectiveness of zinc and vitamin C on the duration of COVID-19 infections: Vitamin C and zinc have been heralded as treatments for colds for decades, but how well do they work against COVID-19? A new clinical trial provides the answer. The post first appeared on Science-Based Medicine . → https://is.gd/ugUOxR | 15:04 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Gli impegni del Presidente Draghi di venerdì 19 febbraio ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/gli-impegni-del-presidente-draghi-di-venerd-19-febbraio/16231 ) | 15:15 | |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +1219 cases (now 546754), +24 deaths (now 9862) since 22 hours ago — Germany: +8984 cases (now 2.4 million) since 22 hours ago | 15:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: Infections in England fall by two thirds since January: A “strong decline” has been seen in the prevalence of SARS-CoV-2 in England among the general population five to six weeks into lockdown, show the latest data from the Real-time Assessment of... → https://is.gd/oW65l6 | 15:27 |
| mobidrop_ | maybe because spring is right around the corner and the disease seems to be seasonal | 15:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from ScienceNews: The U.K. approved the world’s first COVID-19 human challenge trial: Dozens of young, healthy volunteers will be deliberately exposed to the coronavirus to find out how much virus it takes to get someone sick. → https://is.gd/oTgGTL | 16:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Shane Crotty: @profshanecrotty: Great discussion of COVID vaccine hesitancy. I agree that 'early adopters' are important. And I like @ASlavitt term of people who are COVID 'vaccine curious' ! → https://is.gd/3Dvdcj | 16:46 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- WHO Disease Outbreak News: Ebola virus disease – Guinea ( http://www.who.int/entity/csr/don/17-february-2021-ebola-gin/en/index.html ) | 16:47 | |
| pwr22 | LjL: just had to have a blood test to check my kidneys wrt my blood pressure medication | 16:49 |
| pwr22 | Really didn't want to have to go in to the surgery during a damn lockdown but they refused to fill my prescription any longer | 16:50 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: Circulating SARS-CoV-2 variants escape neutralization by vaccine-induced humoral immunity (81 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.14.21251704v1 | https://redd.it/lmjl9y | 17:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: As the WHO investigated coronavirus origins in China, Beijing pushed a conspiracy about the US → https://is.gd/nTZzP4 | 17:22 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +8272 cases (now 4.1 million), +398 deaths (now 119160) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +2326 cases (now 1.0 million), +71 deaths (now 15105) since 16 hours ago | 17:43 |
| LjL | pwr22: understandable. But I also understand the worry within doctors (and pharmacists in this case, I suppose?) that the fear of covid is creating a lot of health issues due to people not getting checked or treated | 18:15 |
| pwr22 | I was originally meant to have this blood test a year ago | 18:15 |
| pwr22 | it was postponed twice due to brexit | 18:15 |
| pwr22 | Realistically I'd probably be dead now if this was fucking with my kidney function / potassium serum levels | 18:16 |
| pwr22 | *brexit->covid | 18:16 |
| pwr22 | Doh | 18:16 |
| LjL | pwr22: my mom did almost die due to a potassium issue that likely a medication caused... and she was never told she had to get tested :/ | 18:28 |
| pwr22 | Ah that sucks | 18:29 |
| pwr22 | We do it two weeks after the medication change usually | 18:29 |
| pwr22 | I had low potassium at some point from another medication but apparently not that low | 18:29 |
| LjL | Also, Italy: my pharmacist was sent consent forms for Pfizer, to have in a few days, then the evening before he was scheduled, they told him to print a new form because they had sent him the wrong one, and in reality he was to get AstraZeneca (sigh). So he printed it and the next day he went to the place, to find a ridiculously long queue... He asked around, and he understood that they basically hadn't started vaccinating anyone yet because most people had th | 18:31 |
| LjL | wrong forms, and there they did not have printers. | 18:31 |
| LjL | So all in all he spent a couple of hours waiting. | 18:31 |
| LjL | My qualms at this (if the aren't obvious): giving people plenty of opportunity to get covid by spending a couple of hours close together queuing, and the fact most people this way had basically zero time to actually read the consent form, which was five pages | 18:33 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +13755 cases (now 2.8 million), +347 deaths (now 94887) since 23 hours ago | 18:51 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: World’s largest clinical trial for COVID-19 treatments expands internationally (80 votes) | https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/world2019s-largest-clinical-trial-for-covid-19-treatments-expands-internationally | https://redd.it/lmj4w9 | 18:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from Derek Lowe: @Dereklowe: This is my hope as well - that we're possibly seeing the worst that the coronavirus can put together. But there are no guarantees! → https://is.gd/UgPc4B | 19:04 |
| pwr22 | LjL: wow, that sucks | 19:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Coronavirus deaths in Africa hit 100,000: on Thursday, with 3,341,197 confirmed infections, according to an AFP tally compiled from official sources. → https://is.gd/qjERzz | 19:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: WHO waits on COVID vaccine makers to uphold pledges: The World Health Organization on Thursday urged COVID-19 vaccine manufacturers to make good on their commitments as the planet's poorest countries await their first doses. → https://is.gd/XCLaNz | 19:41 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +194 deaths (now 83262) since 22 hours ago | 19:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virological.org: Latest posts: Long-term evolution of SARS-CoV-2 in an immunocompromised patient with non-Hodgkin lymphoma: Vítor Borges 1 , Joana Isidro 1 , Mário Cunha 2 , Daniela Cochicho 2 , Luis Martins 2 , Luis Banha 2 , Margarida Figueiredo 2 , Leonor Rebelo 2 , Maria Céu Trindade 3 , Sílvia Duarte 4 , Luís Vieira 4 , Maria João [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/fKYWUI | 19:54 |
| CoronaBot | /r/coronavirus: 1 in 3 adults are depressed or anxious due to COVID-19 (10145 votes) | https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/02/covid19-mental-health-depression-anxiety | https://redd.it/lmjm2p | 20:16 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +14515 cases (now 3.1 million), +388 deaths (now 66704) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +2779 cases (now 837033), +54 deaths (now 21464) since 23 hours ago | 20:18 |
| LjL | ... the other 2 in 3 adults are depressed or anxious for other reasons, plus COVID-19 | 20:24 |
| pwr22 | 😭 | 20:28 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: Densely sampled viral trajectories suggest longer duration of acute infection with B.1.1.7 variant relative to non-B.1.1.7 SARS-CoV-2 (81 votes) | https://dash.harvard.edu/handle/1/37366884 | https://redd.it/llweom | 20:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Lasting heart damage reported with severe covid patients → https://is.gd/yV8Bw6 | 20:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: No jab, no job: Vatican gets tough with COVID anti-vaxxers → https://is.gd/DLHDSO | 21:20 |
| pwr22 | https://nypost.com/2021/02/18/single-pfizer-moderna-vaccine-dose-nearly-as-effective-as-two/ | 21:23 |
| LjL | funny that a rag like the NY Post actually *does* link to the study while "reputable" papers often very annoyingly don't | 21:24 |
| LjL | anyway, it's often been said here that the second shot is more about *lasting* immunity | 21:25 |
| pwr22 | Hmm, they didn't check if the immunity is lasting | 21:25 |
| pwr22 | Also, I'm confused how they can say a single dose vs double dose are effective after two weeks, since the second dose wouldn't be until week 3 anyway? | 21:25 |
| LjL | and also, i can understand the reasoning "let's forego lasting immunity for now, just to be able to give it to more people, as there's a shortage"... but i am very concerned when trial protocol is overruled and things are just done differently from the way they were done in the trials. drug trials are meant to replicate real-life conditions to see what happens | 21:26 |
| LjL | pwr22, they couldn't check whether immunity is lasting in a definitive way, since that simply takes... time... but the second shot kinda makes the antibody tithers skyrocket, which is usually a sign of that | 21:26 |
| LjL | pwr22, well the "effectiveness graph" (i think i've seen the one from Pfizer) makes it very clear that the amount of cases in people who took the vaccine clearly diverges from the amount in people who got placebo after ~12 days | 21:27 |
| LjL | and the fact that it's not the second shot that makes an obvious difference isn't really new, you could tell from that graph | 21:27 |
| LjL | the question is, is it worth it, due to the current shortage and the variants and all that, to "spend" the vaccine we have to give more first shots, and forego the second shots even though they were integral to the trial? | 21:28 |
| LjL | also | 21:28 |
| LjL | NYPost says this is a "study", but it's really just a letter to the editor | 21:28 |
| LjL | just saying | 21:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Science: Florida governor threatens to withhold vaccine from area that criticized him → https://is.gd/b4wgDf | 21:33 |
| CoronaBot | /r/covid19: Coronavirus Variants: Down to the Details (82 votes) | https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/18/coronavirus-variants | https://redd.it/lmsbkm | 21:35 |
| LjL | pwr22, the graph i'm talking about is on page 2614 here https://www.nejm.org/doi/pdf/10.1056/NEJMoa2034577 (but rest assured there aren't 2614 pages in the PDF) | 21:35 |
| LjL | pwr22, that should show intuitively why the efficacy is low if you take the period between first and second shot *and* include the first ~12 days from the first shot, but becomes pretty high otherwise | 21:35 |
| LjL | blue are cumulative COVID cases in people who got the placebo, red is same for those who took the vaccine | 21:36 |
| de-facto | well also look at https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.09.20245175v1.full Figure 1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/medrxiv/early/2020/12/11/2020.12.09.20245175/F1.large.jpg | 21:40 |
| de-facto | "BNT162b2-induced IgG concentrations and virus neutralisation titers." | 21:40 |
| de-facto | the dose in use is 30µg mRNA in BNT162b2 for each shot (primer and booster 21 days apart) | 21:42 |
| de-facto | id assume the immunity at day 22 only can have resulted from 1st shot, on day 29++ probably also from booster | 21:43 |
| de-facto | especially on Fig1b "Virus neutralisation titers" it shows a clear raise between day 22 and day 29 after hence after primer and after booster | 21:45 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +26 deaths (now 9875) since 22 hours ago | 21:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Rich nations see virus rates fall quicker—study: Richer countries were more likely to see rates of COVID-19 fall faster during the first wave of the pandemic, according to new research published in the journal Frontiers in Public Health. → https://is.gd/lFhNdU | 21:46 |
| de-facto | so id assume with the new variants imported it may make a significant difference in how many viral replications are tolerated under partial immunity, hence for the probability to breed on new variants of concern | 21:46 |
| de-facto | or alternative explanation: it takes more than 22 days to develop the full neutralization potential from first shot and it only looks like the second shot caused the rise | 21:49 |
| de-facto | yet since immunity declines from that peak point on it directly translates into duration for protection that is increased with the booster | 21:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Top scientists call for universal coronavirus vaccine: The prestigious journal Science on Thursday published an editorial calling for a global effort to develop a universal coronavirus vaccine that would remain effective against other members of the same virus family that might cross over to humans. → https://is.gd/L4h30L | 22:10 |
| gigas_cedar | wow universal corona vax | 22:46 |
| gigas_cedar | delete the 'common cold', leaving us with just influenze | 22:46 |
| gigas_cedar | then maybe we can delete influenza, leaving us with just herpes ?? | 22:47 |
| de-facto | as long as humans have close contact to wild animals its only a question of time until the next spill over takes place | 22:49 |
| gigas_cedar | have hope de-facto, the mRNA revolution is upon us | 23:09 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Vaccination: Georgia opening up four mass vaccination sites for COVID-19 → https://is.gd/m0WyLJ | 23:12 |
| de-facto | indeed | 23:43 |
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