libera/##covid-19/ Monday, 2021-02-22

LjLUuuh I wouldn't know as it would not be legal to obtain a copy of those00:03
* LjL looks left and right00:04
de-factoa friend told me...00:04
LjL(But really I only know of some emails exchanged between EU/EMA people, I didn't check the complicated documents)00:04
LjLI am lazy, I was hoping the media would report on that!00:05
LjLInstead, utter silence00:05
de-factoindeed we never heard of it again (except for the EMA press releases)00:07
LjLIt's almost like investigative journalism doesn't exist anymore. There's either just droning media that copy from Reuters, AP or Wikipedia, or on the other side, shady conspiracy theory indulging media. Serious journalists that actually try to figure out stuff sombrely? Not so much00:12
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: (news): Covid: Boris Johnson to unveil 'cautious' plan to lift England's lockdown → https://is.gd/bL9Mz300:16
de-factowell the problem is if they were to publish anything based on such leaks they somehow would have to confirm the correctness for the base of their claims (independently from the leaks), otherwise leaks could manipulate media by releasing produced data or correspondence00:29
de-factoidk how they could do that in this case00:29
de-factomaybe provoke an official statement from EMA on claims somehow? idk00:30
de-factothey also should not do damage to the public opinion or such, difficult to find the right balance00:31
LjLi remember with past leaks one or another paper had an exclusive over it and covered at least the gist00:39
LjLi'm not saying they went into detail in the big media, but they talked about it (like big wikileaks releases or whatnot)00:40
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Australia’s largest ever vaccine rollout has begun, as thousands of front line workers across Australia get the COVID-19 jab → https://is.gd/zR0MKg01:30
de-factowith their domestic production of ChAdOx1?01:42
BrainstormUpdates for Canada: +2770 cases (now 847238), +41 deaths (now 21671) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +7542 cases (now 4.1 million), +220 deaths (now 120587) since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +4606 cases (now 1.1 million) since 23 hours ago02:00
de-factooh its BNT162b2 i see02:06
LjLde-facto, do you know if there's *more* truth to this whole thing? just you know, for some good ol' "we invented it" "no we did" so we can all get distracted https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/lp8ygj/us_daily_vaccination_greater_than_total_canadian/goafth0/02:23
de-factoi am not so sure about that statement there, afaik BioNTech was working on mRNA tech for more than 10 years (for therapies against cancer) and got big financial support by taxpayers money last year02:30
de-factohence i assume they did do the development of the technology and Pfizer did the trial and helped with manufacturing now02:31
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pfizer-BioNTech Shot Stops Covid Spread, Israeli Study Shows → https://is.gd/282t1U02:32
de-factohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C4%9Fur_%C5%9Eahin02:33
de-factohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BioNTech is 13 years old already02:33
LjLde-facto, well, on the other hand googling "mrna penn university" does bring up this Karikó person on a few hits02:33
LjLi don't know if it needed to be "licensed" from Penn University though02:34
de-factoi am sure there was research done on it at all the universities at that time02:34
LjL"Editor’s Note: The Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 mRNA vaccines both use licensed University of Pennsylvania technology." https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2020/december/penn-mrna-biology-pioneers-receive-covid19-vaccine-enabled-by-their-foundational-research02:34
LjLde-facto, well there's a difference between general research and research that you need a license to use in these particular vaccines02:34
de-factomaybe the modRNA? not sure02:35
bree33the university must have a patent02:35
de-facto(that was a guess)02:35
bree33it could just be for a tiny aspect of the technology02:35
LjL"Like Moderna, BioNTech licensed technology developed by the Pennsylvania scientist whose work was long ignored, Karikó, and her collaborator, Weissman. In fact, in 2013, the company hired Karikó as senior vice president to help oversee its mRNA work." https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/10/the-story-of-mrna-how-a-once-dismissed-idea-became-a-leading-technology-in-the-covid-vaccine-race/02:36
LjLit's more than a tiny aspects if you check these articles02:36
bree33i see02:36
LjL"It took seven years, but the pair eventually figured out how to make mRNA therapy work. In 2005, Karikó and Weissman published their groundbreaking study. The University of Pennsylvania licensed the technology and patented it." https://billypenn.com/2020/12/29/university-pennsylvania-covid-vaccine-mrna-kariko-demoted-biontech-pfizer/02:37
de-factoi get a bit the feeling that Pfizer tries to make the impression its "their vaccine" not really mentioning it was developed by BioNTech in Mainz02:37
bree33that academia for you damn02:38
de-factothe end product is a combination of many research branches in biotech i guess02:40
de-factothe mRNA itself, encapsulated by lead in  and tail sequences, the nucleoside modifications to evade immune responses, the lipid nano particles (afaik from some canadian company), manufacturing processes etc pp02:42
LjLokay this is my take, after reading and quoting all these articles https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/lp8ygj/us_daily_vaccination_greater_than_total_canadian/goajvwm/02:47
LjLde-facto, i think Pfizer is not entirely wrong in considering it their vaccine when, sure, a ton of technologies came into play, but when it comes to this specific COVID vaccine, they ran the clinical trials, dealt with getting the approval, and mostly threw in the money02:47
LjLwe can say that BioNTech was the "brains" behind all this, but then that fellow wouldn't be so wrong in saying, no, a ton of people are, including these UPenn researchers who started it all, and held a patent that needs to be licensed02:48
de-factowell BioNTech paid Pfizer for doing the trials afaik03:01
de-facto.title https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa203457703:02
BrainstormUpdates for France: +11447 cases (now 3.6 million) since 23 hours ago03:02
Brainstormde-facto: From www.nejm.org: Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine | NEJM03:02
de-facto"Pfizer was responsible for the design and conduct of the trial, data collection, data analysis, data interpretation, and the writing of the manuscript. BioNTech was the sponsor of the trial, manufactured the BNT162b2 clinical trial material, and contributed to the interpretation of the data and the writing of the manuscript."03:02
LjLde-facto, "sponsor of the trial" does not necessarily mean they paid for it, and at least based on the Pfizer press release, it's Pfizer that shelled out the money... which seems quite natural to me as Pfizer is bound to have a LOT money money lying around than BioNTech, just going by the respective companies' size03:04
LjL"In the conduct of a clinical trial, a sponsor is an individual, institution, company or organization (for example, a contract research organization) that takes the responsibility to initiate, manage or finance the clinical trial,1 but does not actually conduct the investigation."03:05
LjL"A person, company, institution, group, or organization that oversees or pays for a clinical trial and collects and analyzes the data. Also called trial sponsor."03:05
LjLnote there's always an "or", so... i dunno03:05
de-factoi think there is a lot of German taxpayers money invested into BioNTech being able to pay for such things as the trial03:11
de-factoon the contrary Pfizer refused to get US taxpayers money afaik03:11
de-factoit does not matter anyhow, but i get annoyed by people calling it the Pfizer vaccine, its just not the truth and imho unfair towards all the research and development done by BioNTech not Pfizer03:12
BrainstormUpdates for Saint Lucia: +218 cases (now 3078), +3 deaths (now 31) since a day ago — Germany: +254 deaths (now 68443) since 20 hours ago03:21
LjLi wonder what exactly is entailed by "As part of that agreement, the U.S. gets to decide who gets the vaccine first"  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-09/pfizer-vaccine-s-funding-came-from-berlin-not-washington03:24
LjLit's not very clear, maybe it just means "within the US"03:25
de-factoi think BioNTech got at least 375M taxpayers money from Germany03:27
de-factoyeah from that article that would fit03:28
de-facto"The truth is that Pfizer didn’t receive any funding from Operation Warp Speed for the development, clinical trial and manufacturing of the vaccine. Rather, its partner, BioNTech SE, has received money -- from the German government."03:28
de-facto$445 million dollar yeah that would fit with the 375M Euro03:30
de-factoi think i read somewhere the LNP technology came from a Canadian company03:38
de-factoat least the one for BNT162b203:39
de-factonot sure about mRNA-127303:39
de-facto.title https://acuitastx.com/technology/lipid-nanoparticles/03:49
Brainstormde-facto: From acuitastx.com: Lipid Nanoparticles - Acuitas03:49
de-facto.title https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/1/65/htm#B49-vaccines-09-0006503:52
Brainstormde-facto: From www.mdpi.com: Vaccines | Free Full-Text | Nanomaterial Delivery Systems for mRNA Vaccines | HTML03:52
de-facto.title https://acuitastx.com/news-events/03:54
Brainstormde-facto: From acuitastx.com: NEWS & EVENTS - Acuitas03:54
de-facto.title https://www.polymun.com/liposomes/reference-projects/04:00
Brainstormde-facto: From www.polymun.com: POLYMUN - Liposomes04:00
de-factoso there are a lot of collaborations taking place, the best of technologies available worldwide being integrated into BNT162b204:01
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Covid2019: Young adults living with hidden illnesses told Insider how they were shamed for receiving COVID-19 vaccines → https://is.gd/XVEfTQ04:35
BrainstormUpdates for Cambodia: +35 cases (now 568) since a day ago — New Zealand: +7 cases (now 2357) since 2 days ago04:41
de-factoactually it a bit annoying that BNT162b2 was developed mainly with German taxpayers money and how there are not enough doses for the citizens who paid for it here in Germany.06:13
de-facto"Berlin gave the German company $445 million in an agreement in September to help accelerate the vaccine by building out manufacturing and development capacity in its home market."06:17
de-facto"What the U.S. did, meanwhile, was commit to buying hundreds of millions of vaccines in advance to ensure Americans were among the first in line if it clinches an emergency-use authorization or approval from the FDA."06:17
de-facto"The Trump administration agreed in July to pay almost $2 billion for 100 million doses, with an option to acquire as many as 500 million more, once that clearance comes."06:18
de-factohow nice of USA06:18
de-facto"As part of that agreement, the U.S. gets to decide who gets the vaccine first, and will work with the company on logistical support."06:19
de-factomerica first.06:19
BrainstormUpdates for Belgium: +2094 cases (now 754473), +16 deaths (now 21903) since 23 hours ago06:27
BrainstormNew from EurekAlert!: Stress was leading reason teachers quit before pandemic, and COVID has made matters worse: Stress was the most common reason teachers cited for leaving the profession before and during the pandemic, according to a RAND Corporation survey of nearly 1,000 former public-school teachers. Three of four former teachers said work was [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/z6cg3606:27
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Positive coronavirus test? Canadians worry their neighbors will find out → https://is.gd/2MuoKG06:39
zutt%cases Finland06:49
Brainstormzutt: In Finland, there have been 53742 confirmed cases (1.0% of the population) and 726 deaths (1.4% of cases) as of 16 hours ago. 3.2 million tests were performed (1.7% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.8% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 1.8% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Finland for time series data.06:49
zutt%cases sweden06:52
Brainstormzutt: In Sweden, there have been 631166 confirmed cases (6.1% of the population) and 12649 deaths (2.0% of cases) as of 2 days ago. 5.9 million tests were performed (10.7% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Sweden for time series data.06:52
zutt%cases israel06:55
Brainstormzutt: In Israel, there have been 750043 confirmed cases (8.2% of the population) and 5577 deaths (0.7% of cases) as of 7 hours ago. 11.6 million tests were performed (6.5% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.9% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 0.8% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Israel for time series data.06:55
BrainstormUpdates for Lombardy, Italy: +2514 cases (now 579280), +50 deaths (now 28058) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +9845 cases (now 4.1 million), +216 deaths (now 120695) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +4654 cases (now 1.1 million) since 23 hours ago — Canada: +2679 cases (now 848109) since 23 hours ago07:16
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Students in France wait for food handouts as COVID-19 destroys part-time jobs → https://is.gd/2SkYlU07:41
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: India’s Covid vaccine maker told to meet domestic demand first, urges ‘rest of the world’ to be patient → https://is.gd/IRhWgE08:06
BrainstormNew from Science-Based Medicine: Can mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines cause prion disease or Alzheimer’s?: Antivax immunologist J. Bart Classen published a paper claiming that mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines can cause prion disease leading to neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer's dementia. What are prions, and can these vaccines cause prion disease? [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/zwout709:08
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: UK's PM eyes end to lockdown as vaccines reach one-third of adults: Prime Minister Boris Johnson is set Monday to start unwinding England's third and—he hopes—final coronavirus lockdown, as a quickening UK-wide inoculation drive relieves pressure on hard-hit hospitals. → https://is.gd/waS7jP09:20
pwr22<Brainstorm "New from Medical Xpress: UK's PM"> Isn't that meant to be on March 8th.... has he moved it forward....09:35
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Kuwait Puts Citizens Before Expats as Vaccine Push Stirs Anger → https://is.gd/J4DKpH10:10
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): COVID19: With nearly half the population vaccinated, Israeli health ministry data finds a two-shot regimen has reduced Covid-19 infections by 95.8% → https://is.gd/LAK2Zn10:23
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: Covid: Vaccines having big impact on hospitalisation risk: First evidence UK vaccine programme is reducing the number of serious illnesses in Scotland → https://is.gd/l1Fqth10:36
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Health: ‘A doozy of a year’: Experts worry screen time during Covid-19 could increase vision problems in kids → https://is.gd/NnEjAt10:48
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Opinion: The pandemic slingshot: propelling from national crisis to a resilient health care system: When faced with crises, our nation has openly reflected on the causes and consequences and come together to foster change. This pandemic should be no different. → https://is.gd/EsArhT11:00
BrainstormNew from NPR: West Virginia's Vaccination Rate Ranks Among Highest In World: How did West Virginia become one of the world's leaders in delivering COVID-19 vaccines? One piece of the story starts with a striking photograph in the local paper. → https://is.gd/2U5TwK11:13
CoronaBot/r/covid19: With nearly half the population vaccinated, Israeli health ministry data finds a two-shot regimen has reduced Covid-19 infections by 95.8% (80 votes) | https://www.calcalistech.com/ctech/articles/0,7340,L-3894892,00.html | https://redd.it/lpj7qk11:30
BrainstormNew from BMJ: Vaccines for older adults: AbstractThe proportion of the global population aged 65 and older is rapidly increasing. Infections in this age group, most recently with SARS-CoV-2, cause substantial morbidity and mortality. Major... → https://is.gd/mtzSC411:48
BrainstormNew from PubMed: Overcoming the Challenges of COVID-19 Pandemic in Orthodontic Practice: The coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) turned into a pandemic in short-time with multi-dimensional effects on human lives. The containment of this infection has become a big challenge in all countries due to its rapid spread. In this situation, when there is no [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/gNlaFj12:36
BrainstormNew from The Atlantic: We’re Just Rediscovering a 19th-Century Pandemic Strategy: A few years ago, when I still had confidence in our modern ability to fight viruses, I pored over a photo essay of the 1918 flu pandemic . How quaint, I remember thinking, as I looked at people bundled up for outdoor classes and court and church. How primitive their [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/F6mbop13:14
rpifanthats a good article13:20
rpifanagreed13:20
BrainstormNew from The Atlantic: The U.S. Vaccine Strategy Is Good, Actually: T he American government’s COVID-19 response has been a disaster, right? The United States strategy is a four-alarm dumpster fire, sent from hell to remind Americans to never again elect a president who describes the scientific method as “Now they have it, they have studied it, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/yAeEK913:36
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Nota della Presidenza del Consiglio ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/nota-della-presidenza-del-consiglio/16253 )13:37
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Comunicato stampa del Consiglio dei Ministri n. 2 ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/comunicato-stampa-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-2/16254 )13:37
BrainstormNew from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Veterinary medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Innovax-ILT, avian infectious laryngotracheitis and Marek’s disease vaccine (live), Date of authorisation: 03/07/2015, Revision: 3, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/cN7j0f13:49
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Vaccine linked to reduction in risk of COVID-19 admissions to hospitals (80 votes) | https://publichealthscotland.scot/news/2021/february/vaccine-linked-to-reduction-in-risk-of-covid-19-admissions-to-hospitals/ | https://redd.it/lpl3xc14:49
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Immunological memory to SARS-CoV-2 assessed for greater than six months after infection → https://is.gd/nRULyh14:51
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +2449 cases (now 550224), +8 deaths (now 9895) since 16 hours ago15:21
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: Glaxo and Sanofi start new trial of Covid-19 vaccine; AstraZeneca ends a drug’s use for bladder cancer after failed trial → https://is.gd/U6eDla15:48
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +5220 cases (now 2.4 million) since 23 hours ago15:52
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: A third of COVID survivors have long-haul symptoms, even after mild cases: Many patients with mild to moderate COVID-19 could become "long haulers," suffering symptoms months after they clear their non-life-threatening infection, new research shows. → https://is.gd/87n3ry16:11
Arsaneritrpifan: I'm confused by the Atlantic article.  They've been stressing ventilation from the start here in Germany.16:16
CoronaBot/r/coronavirus: COVID-19: Vaccine rollout linked to 85% and 94% drop in risk of coronavirus hospital admissions in Scotland, study shows (10011 votes) | https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-vaccine-rollout-linked-to-85-and-94-drop-in-coronavirus-hospital-admissions-in-scotland-study-shows-12225532 | https://redd.it/lpkb3v16:20
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Pediatric inpatient admissions down during pandemic: Inpatient pediatric admissions were down across a wide range of diagnoses during the early months of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a study published online Feb. 12 in JAMA Network Open. → https://is.gd/UNNIJ416:35
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: Covid vaccines - 'spectacular' impact on serious illness: First evidence from the UK's vaccine programme shows a reduction in risk of being admitted to hospital. → https://is.gd/GHQz3F16:48
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Pfizer to begin clinical trial of COVID-19 vaccine in pregnant women: The first U.S. participants in a large-scale clinical trial to test the safety and efficacy of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine in pregnant women have received their shots, the company announced Thursday. → https://is.gd/fsIfNz17:12
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Effectiveness of first dose of COVID-19 vaccines against hospital admissions in Scotland: national prospective cohort study of 5.4 million people (83 votes) | https://www.ed.ac.uk/files/atoms/files/scotland_firstvaccinedata_preprint.pdf | https://redd.it/lpnctt17:15
BrainstormUpdates for Netherlands: +4342 cases (now 1.1 million) since 21 hours ago — Switzerland: +16 deaths (now 9903) since 19 hours ago17:38
BrainstormNew from In The Pipeline: More on mRNA Vaccine Manufacturing: Here’s a good article from the Washington Post that updates some details that I talked about in this post on the lipids used in the mRNA vaccines and in this one about their overall manufacturing process. It focuses on Acuitas, who make the two proprietary lipids that are used in the [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/bNt0v317:46
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Colloquio telefonico Draghi - Merkel ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/colloquio-telefonico-draghi-merkel/16261 )17:47
BrainstormNew from Derek Lowe: @Dereklowe: More details on mRNA vaccine manufacturing and on making the key lipids involved. The general "It ain't easy" take still applies:https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/02/22/more-on-mrna-vaccine-manufacturinghttps://is.gd/9fkz2v17:59
de-factoI may have the opportunity to ask an expert, are there any (fancy, interesting, well educated) questions that you always wanted to ask about SARS-CoV-2 ?18:01
Jigsy%cases UK18:09
BrainstormJigsy: In United Kingdom, there have been 4.1 million confirmed cases (6.2% of the population) and 120695 deaths (2.9% of cases) as of 10 hours ago. 84.7 million tests were performed (4.9% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20Kingdom for time series data.18:09
BrainstormUpdates for Italy: +9617 cases (now 2.8 million), +274 deaths (now 95992) since 22 hours ago — United Kingdom: +11116 cases (now 4.1 million), +195 deaths (now 120775) since 22 hours ago18:21
LjLde-facto: I have performance anxiety so now you've asked I'm drawing a blank. What kind of expert anyway? Virologist, epidemiologist...?18:41
LjLhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/lpkb3v/covid19_vaccine_rollout_linked_to_85_and_94_drop/ looks like r/coronavirus doesn't like those who don't like the AZ vaccine... But how exactly can the figure in this news article be realistic? Not only have would the Pfizer/BNT vaccine have less effectiveness than AZ, but AZ would have extraordinary effectiveness after just one dose, when in fact their issues where how/when to administer the second dose to18:51
LjLAlso, one comment says AZ is the only one for which we also have a confirmation that it reduces contagiousness. I don't remember, I think I saw some news on that yesterday or the day before, were they on AZ or more general? I saw but didn't click :( which I guess was dumb because it would be important news18:53
BrainstormNew from Ars Technica: Cars: Hyundai/Aptiv joint venture begins driverless tests, eyes 2023 launch → https://is.gd/ZkGGYN18:58
de-factoLjL, i think molecular biologist or virologist maybe also immunology, not quite sure19:11
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Medical research: 'No COVID-19 is good COVID-19': Variants spur scientists to study, mitigate strain outbreaks → https://is.gd/ZhlZS119:11
de-factodef not epidemiologist19:12
de-factoits gonna be a proxy question, so it should leave a well educated, knowledgeable impression19:12
de-factoand i also only can suggest it, not sure if it will be asked19:13
ubLIX[m]if.. most vaccinations in scotland have been in over 65 group; that most of these vaccinations used OX/AZ; that use of pfizer has been in younger cohorts; greater reduction of severe illness/hospitalisation expected from treatment of more vulnerable population? it is reported that the study authors say the data should NOT be used to compare these vaccines. i haven't found the pre-print yet. anyone?19:13
LjLubLIX[m], wait, Pfizer has been used in younger people and AZ in older? that's the reverse here19:19
ubLIX[m]'scuse me. ignore that19:22
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: SARS-CoV-2, COVID-19 rates decreased after one vaccine dose: (HealthDay)—Substantial reductions in severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) and symptomatic COVID-19 have been reported following administration of one dose of the BNT162b2 COVID-19 vaccine, according to a research letter published online Feb. [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/O6bJl319:24
de-factovirologists19:25
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Belgian projections warn not to relax measures too quickly: Belgium's government on Monday presented scientific projections of the spread of the COVID-19 pandemic in the country, indicating it would be very risky to extensively loosen the current restrictions over the coming weeks. → https://is.gd/QE6F8p19:48
ubLIX[m]hm. "Also the ChAdOx1 vaccine has predominantly been used in the elderly and was only available from 4th January 2021, giving less time for follow-up." from https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=378926419:50
LjLubLIX[m], the thing is here AZ has not been *approved* for people over 65 (initially 55), same in Germany, due to apparent lack of data for those populations. but also, it has become common thinking to "give the more effective vaccine to those most at risk and leave AZ for the others". like i mentioned the r/coronavirus thread calls this a lot of bollocks, basically, or rather says that the EU is being petty against AZ, America wants to promote "their"19:53
LjLvaccines, and Australia media somehow go with the EU narrative19:53
LjLbut i've gotta say, i don't *think* my skepticism against AZ is due to media narraitve... unless, of course, i've been successfully biased without realizing... i was skeptical on it based on the haphazardness of their trials, on the content of their press release, and on the data from their study19:53
de-factoafaik also not approved for elderly in France, at least some time ago19:53
LjLde-facto, right, i don't know about other countries than Italy and Germany, but the EMA itself approved it for any age, that wasn't to be taken for granted19:54
BrainstormUpdates for Botswana: +1197 cases (now 27721), +46 deaths (now 300) since 3 days ago19:54
de-factobut one should keep in mind one important point: afaik it still protects against severe or fatal progressions (at least there is no data suggesting the opposite) even with the VoCs19:55
de-factoat least that is what experts tend to say (in podcasts etc)19:55
LjLi'd say "there is no data suggesting the opposite" is a lot truer than "it still protects against severe or fatal progressions". the trial with the SA variant had basically just 20 people getting sick and they were young and healthy, so i really don't think anything can be said from that about *how well* it protects with that variant19:56
de-factoso SA wasting 1M OX/AZ doses is not such a good idea in terms of protection against fatal outcomes, it might be better to use a more efficient vaccine to reduce the number of replications under partial immunity though (reducing the probability for new evasive VoCs to occur)19:56
LjLwhat's clear is that it doesn't protect from disease, at all, since there were basically 20 sick in the vaccine group, and 20 in the control group19:57
de-factoLjL, exactly the reason why i said it like that19:57
LjLwell i don't see why the default assumption should be that it still protects them, your "afaik ..." seem like failing to use my favorite cautionary principle19:57
LjLif it seems that people get sick equally with the vaccine as not, and we have no data on severe cases, the assumption should be that it does NOT work on severe/fatal cases, UNTIL it's proven otherwise19:58
ubLIX[m]anyway, this seems to be link to pdf of preprint since above link is only the abstract: https://www.ed.ac.uk/files/atoms/files/scotland_firstvaccinedata_preprint.pdf19:59
LjLi don't want to be a pain in the ass just for fun. but i've been annoyed too many time by optimistic assumptions20:00
LjLthanks20:00
de-factowell severe progressions require the infection of the lower respiratory tract (lung etc) which takes some time, so if partial immunity from vaccination cant prevent mild symptoms from infection of the upper respiratory tract it very well might give the immune system enough time advantage to prevent such a deep infection of the lower respiratory tract with severe progressions20:00
de-factoi think thats how it most probably would turn out to be if investigated further20:02
de-facto(i have no data for that though)20:02
de-factoi think the problem with partial immunity against VOCs is the raised selective pressure (as can be seen in the areas were VOCs emerged), not so much very severe progressions (but i might be wrong since in Manaus hospitals filled unexpectedly again)20:06
ubLIX[m]LjL: look at figure 2, page 15 of linked pdf20:07
LjLubLIX[m], i guess maybe it's actually the same in the EU... in the sense that, yes, it's been said elderly people should get mRNA preferably, but in practice, healthcare workers were the first to get vaccinated and, at least at first when available, they got Pfizer... then in the countries where vaccination of elderly happened at all, there was only AZ left20:10
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add Scottish paper on efficacy against hospitalization ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/56d311f8ae3a9d5d3499629365be1615428fc1ed )20:18
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : Add Scottish paper on efficacy against hospitalization: PDF also available from the government at https://www.ed.ac.uk/files/atoms/files/scotland_firstvaccinedata_preprint.pdfhttps://is.gd/x0fxSh20:24
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Attacco a Goma, bandiere a mezz&#39;asta in segno di lutto ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/attacco-goma-bandiere-mezzasta-segno-di-lutto/16262 )20:32
BrainstormUpdates for France: +17354 cases (now 3.6 million) since 21 hours ago20:38
CoronaBot/r/covid19: First real-world UK data shows Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine provides high levels of protection from the first dose (80 votes) | https://www.gov.uk/government/news/first-real-world-uk-data-shows-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-provides-high-levels-of-protection-from-the-first-dose | https://redd.it/lprtvs20:46
eventcheck[m]Interesting21:06
BrainstormNew from ProPublica: Mueren en la lista de espera: por David Armstrong y Marshall Allen Read in English . ProPublica es un medio independiente y sin ánimo de lucro que produce periodismo de investigación en pro del interés público. Suscríbete para recibir sus historias en español por correo electrónico. A principios de diciembre, Miguel [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/pixKVo21:11
BrainstormNew from NPR: As U.S. Death Toll Nears Half A Million, Biden Plans To Order Flags To Half Staff: White House press secretary Jen Psaki said that at a Monday event marking 500,000 COVID-19 deaths, President Joe Biden will order flags on federal property to be lowered to half staff for five days. → https://is.gd/fjX2II21:36
de-factoToday many federal states in Germany opened schools. i think this is a GIGANTIC mistake.22:00
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid: US on verge of exceeding 500,000 deaths, the most for any country in the world → https://is.gd/5Tx0mK22:01
de-factowe will see incidence explode with R ~ 1.5 and more22:01
de-factoopening schools without any concept, not even testing, this is INSANE22:02
de-factowe already have R>1 so with opening schools we need to massively reduce contacts somewhere else22:03
de-factoi have not clue where though22:05
de-factoMPs already talking about opening restaurants and bars, are they on some sort of insane drugs?!22:07
de-factowe have no vaccinations, no quicktests, no studies about transmission paths, no fucking nothing, incidence already rising and they want to open schools businesses and $you_name_it ?!!22:09
eventcheck[m]Germany has no vaccinations?22:10
de-factonot really, maybe 1% or such22:10
eventcheck[m]Which one is available? I imagine Oxford/AstraZeneca22:11
de-facto2.1% fully vaccinated22:12
de-facto3.9% got only first dose22:13
de-factoso practically not present in terms of epidemiology22:13
de-factodoes not matter at all with such small numbers (unfortunately)22:13
de-facto100k vaccinations per day is ridiculous with 83M citizens22:14
BrainstormNew from Virological.org: Latest posts: Global framework for SARS-CoV-2 data analysis: Application to intrahost variation:  | Part 1 Wolfgang Maier, Marius Van Den Beek, Björn Grüning, Sergei Kosakovsky Pond, Anton Nekrutenko, and the Galaxy Team in US, EU, and AU. Correspondence should be addressed to SKP and AN . In an age of digital connectedness, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/9whDuA22:14
de-factoeventcheck[m], mostly BioNTech a bit of Oxford and a small bit Moderna22:15
de-factohttps://impfdashboard.de/22:15
de-factohttps://experience.arcgis.com/experience/db557289b13c42e4ac33e46314457adc22:16
de-factoidk why we dont have any testing concepts for opening22:16
de-factoi think its all a GIGANTIC failure of the Ministers of federal states22:16
de-factosummary: blame them for booOOM.22:17
de-factoi dont even understand it anymore, 3rd wave is already rolling and instead of stopping it they accelerate it22:18
BrainstormUpdates for Spain: +20849 cases (now 3.2 million), +535 deaths (now 67636) since 2 days ago — Canada: +2614 cases (now 848652), +25 deaths (now 21690) since 23 hours ago22:30
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Mongolia receives 300,000 doses of COVID-19 vaccine from China → https://is.gd/nkTlAN23:02
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: US tops 500,000 virus deaths, matching the toll of 3 wars: The COVID-19 death toll in the U.S. topped 500,000 Monday, all but matching the number of Americans killed in World War II, Korea and Vietnam combined. → https://is.gd/VkPIv823:15
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +12 deaths (now 9907) since 7 hours ago23:19
BrainstormNew from NPR: Texas Vaccination Site Apologizes For Refusing COVID-19 Shots To Two Eligible People: The University of Texas Rio Grande Valley turned away people because they could not prove they live in the United States. Proof of residency and citizenship are not required under state rules. → https://is.gd/8afHMR23:38
eventcheck[m]Does anyone know if protected communities have been affected by covid?23:43

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