libera/##covid-19/ Thursday, 2021-02-25

LjLde-facto, can you think of any reason why a vaccine would *not* want to use thost stabilizing mutations? maybe just because they were developed earlier?00:00
LjLat least the adenoviral ones00:00
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add Moderna South African variant vaccine announcement → https://is.gd/hdNi9L00:02
pwr22<LjL "pwr22, is it something they coul"> Apparently some things need to be double checked00:07
pwr22Not potassium though00:07
pwr22Or kidney function00:07
LjLpwr22, maybe try to have just enough health issues to qualify for the vaccine00:08
de-factoLjL, not sure afaik it was some research from an US university, so maybe it would have to be licensed, also yeah maybe they started with their sequence before that?00:08
LjLif it's just a matter of license i'm gonna slap someone on the face00:09
LjLactually i'll have Brainstorm do it00:09
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add paper covering major vaccines and platforms ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/29221bee3bee56f1acf1dae6d70565dc9e57f9ac )00:14
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : Add paper covering major vaccines and platforms: courtesy de-facto; not sure if maybe it's a bit of a random paper to have, but the information in the table seem like something I didn't have in here before → https://is.gd/u3El5W00:27
* de-facto really wishes it would be mandatory for the vaccine manufacturers to publish their full sequence in the approval process in order for everyone to be able to check such things (as discussed above)00:29
de-factobtw the leaks we discussed here before have been removed00:29
de-factoor relocated idk00:29
LjLde-facto, i don't remember where they were00:34
LjL(except on my hard drive)00:34
de-facto mRNA vaccines from WHO INN https://www.who.int/medicines/publications/druginformation/issues/WHO_DI_34-3_PL124-SpecialEdition.pdf00:35
de-factoINO-4800 (pGX9501) https://mednet-communities.net/inn/db/media/docs/11746.doc00:35
de-factobnt162b2: tozinameran, Spike (modRNA) https://mednet-communities.net/inn/db/media/docs/11889.doc00:35
de-factoCVnCoV:  zorecimeran: CureVac, RBD (no 1mΨ) https://mednet-communities.net/inn/db/media/docs/11868.doc00:35
de-factothose links no longer work00:35
LjLoh00:37
LjLi thought the EMA leaks00:37
LjLi didn't know about those... or rather, i think i didn't realize they were leaks00:37
de-factoi dont think it was official releases, id guess someone scraped their servers and realized they were not protected (other by not linked to)00:38
LjLarchive.org has at least the first00:39
de-factoi found loads of other docs like that, i think we even discussed some of them (you mentioning some would look like DNA plasmid etc)00:39
BrainstormNew from The Lancet (Online): [Correspondence] Learning from crises: In response to the Comment by Jo Goodman and colleagues of the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice,1 we have every sympathy with the individuals for their loss and we too hope that lessons will be learned. However, we believe that they will not achieve their aim by calling for an [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/wEociZ00:39
LjLde-facto, you must be thinking of someone else, i have no idea what a DNA plasmid actually is :P00:40
de-factoim pretty sure we talked about it, also about similarities in graphics of papers and in those docs00:43
pwr22<LjL "pwr22, maybe try to have just en"> Cholesterol and liver / bone marrow stuff00:43
pwr22I previously was investigated for potentially having leukaemia as my bone marrow looked wrong on an MRI00:44
pwr22They never explained why that was, just after a lot of tests that I probably didn't have leukaemia at that point in time00:44
LjLyikes :(00:45
pwr22I remember them doing blood tests and they had like 10+ vials to do00:45
pwr22and my vein ran out of blood, I didn't know that could happen00:45
pwr22Then I got super white, thirsty, hot and cold and almost fainted00:45
de-factodid you had Eppstein Barr virus?00:46
pwr22Me? I have no clue00:46
pwr22I've heard of that but I don't even know what it is00:46
de-factoafaik a friend of mine had it and they almost diagnosed him with leukemia (because some metrics look pretty similar for some time)00:47
pwr22Ah, I had a glandular fever sort of thing at multiple points in my life00:47
LjLde-facto, it's the mononucleosis virus00:47
pwr22but each time they tested me for it (I guess for eppstein barr?) and it came back negative multiple times00:47
pwr22glandular fever = mono00:47
de-factoidk any more about it than what i said above00:49
LjLde-facto, okay i figured it out (who said logs aren't useful? probably no one here, but some people i know). one time when you mentioned those documents, you asked "<de-facto> what is this here? https://mednet-communities.net/inn/db/media/docs/11746.doc" and i answered "<LjL> de-facto, looks like a DNA plasmid for expressing the S protein :P" but the ":P" was there because i simply parroted what it said inside 11746.doc ("A DNA plasmid expressing the00:49
LjLfull-length SARS-Cov-2 spike (S) protein.") without really knowing what a plasmid was00:49
de-factoyeah exactly that i meant :)00:50
de-factophew then my memory did not play me tricks00:50
LjLi've had swollen lymph nodes multiple times, and one time when i was having some general symptoms that i didn't understand, my IgG to the EBV were *very* high, like around 400 when the value i had before was 20, but my doctor just said "IgG means you had it in the past, you have no IgA, so IgG isn't indicative of anything"00:50
LjLde-facto, my memory is bad, i just thought it was strange i would be talking about something i didn't actually know about at all00:51
pwr22As far as I'm aware it lives inside your white blood cells forever?00:51
de-factoi think at some point it even was called "student virus" because so many got it at university age00:51
LjLpwr22, i don't know where it lives, but yeah EBV stays around00:51
pwr22It was called the kissing virus here00:51
pwr22Thanks for the info anyway de-facto, I'll mention it to the doctor some time00:52
de-factoi wonder if at some point we realize some diseases became distinct because of distancing :D00:52
de-facto(probably not, but hey would be cool)00:52
pwr22It's like I was going to have a scan to see if I had some back problems and then I ended up being referred to the leukaemia department00:53
de-factopwr22, keep in mind that i dont have a clue about medicine, so its only what i had in memory from my friends story00:53
pwr22Well, it's more than I ever got out of the cancer people!00:54
pwr22And wiki mentions it so it's a start00:55
pwr22I have so many health problems00:55
pwr22😭00:55
LjLpwr22, anyway yeah "had it in the past" is slightly misleading since if i had it in the past i still have it now, but the point being, my doctor's opinion was that it could only be giving me trouble if i was getting it for the first time, but then i would have IgA (or IgM?), instead i didn't, and i already had IgG before (just much lower)00:55
de-factowe all have our burdens, cool thing is if you find out more about it you might solve a few of them00:55
pwr22LjL: couldn't you get symptoms again if you were immuno compromised?00:56
LjLpwr22, i don't know, at some point i think i looked up cases of EBV re-activation, they were individual case studies of very severe manifestations... i don't know if it can come back to some extent just because at some point your immune system is a bit bleh from stress or some non-obvious reason00:57
LjLbut then i dropped it because i thought it was kinda pointless to obsess on it when then i couldn't talk about it to any doctor who'd not dismiss it00:58
de-factoid guess since its pretty common to have it at some point in live if it really would cause later problems we should know about them more or less00:59
de-facto*life00:59
* de-facto is already tired00:59
LjLde-facto, i'm not so sure. think about HPV... we know *now* that it can cause some serious issues, but since 1) it causes it in just a small percentage of cases, and 2) almost everyone has the virus itself, it took many years before making the connection00:59
de-factoyeah good point actually01:00
pwr22Yeah, plus I seem to have hit the bad luck lottery when it comes to weird health complaints01:02
pwr22Reading the EPV wiki page is kind of scary01:02
de-factoafter the age of 40 ca 98% of population have antibodies against it, it seems to be quite harmless especially in children, adults may develop that infectious mononucleosis01:05
LjLde-facto, sure, unless even just some of these things turn out to be true https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epstein%E2%80%93Barr_virus#Role_in_disease01:07
LjL(i mean the second paragraph, not the one about mononucleosis)01:07
LjLin other words: if some of those things are really triggered or enabled by EBV, then sure, they are still somewhat rare, but without EBV, they just wouldn't happen01:08
LjL(if)01:08
de-factoyeah but what i mean is if it would cause severe problems with high probability more people of those 98% would show them01:09
de-factocould very well make a difference at what age the immunization takes place though01:09
LjLokay but to those it does cause problems to, it won't matter that the probability was low :P01:10
de-factoheh maybe there are even some cross reactions with COVID? (completely wild speculation)01:11
LjLyou'd have to find some population in which EBV is much lower than our 98%, and see if COVID acts differently01:12
LjLwhich i suspect is going to be a problem01:12
LjLyou could say "oh children have it less, so maybe that's why they are also less affected by COVID" - but that's true for just about every virus, you don't have it until you get it, so children have it less... again hard to link it to anything in particular01:13
de-factomeh i was not the first with that idea there are papers out already01:13
de-facto%papers EBV COVID01:13
Brainstormde-facto, 7 papers: Positive Epstein-Barr virus detection in corona virus disease 2019 (COVID-19) patients by Ting Chen et al, made available as preprint on 2020-04-06 at https://doi.org/10.21203/rs.3.rs-21580/v1 [... want %more?]01:13
LjLheh01:13
LjL"EBV seropositive COVID-19 patients had a 3.09-fold risk of having a fever symptom than EBV seronegative (95%CI, 1.11-8.56; P=0.03)" ← 3-fold seems important, but then that CI is laaaarge01:14
de-factoyeah it might even be important for children to get immunized at that age against the common viruses01:14
LjLbut i wonder if EBV is studied much even on its own... i mean, i'm sure it is to some extent, as in there are people specialized in studying it - but like, we know it reactivates sometimes, do we know if people typically get some fever when it does? maybe some of the many things we call "i have a little cold or something, maybe a bit of fever, i dunno" are EBV reactivations. even if that's "mostly harmless", i always think it's the kind of thing that would01:15
LjLend up being useful to know01:16
de-factoi meant it not like a acute coinfection but something from (ancient?) EBV infection that causes a (rare) precondition that may lead to more severe COVID trajectories (again complete speculation without any data)01:16
LjLi know01:17
LjLor, think about the COVID *vaccines*, they can give fever and swollen lymph nodes. those are things typical of immune system activation, sure, but they are also things typical of EBV activation01:17
LjLso it would be nice to know if those people who get those reactions are more likely to have EBV than those who don't01:17
LjLwhat would change in practice? not much, but if we knew EBV makes a difference in some cases, then we'd look more into it in other cases too, and we may stumble upon important ones01:18
bn_mobileHi, does anyone know:  1.  When PCR tests became available in the US?  2.  What tests were used to test Nick Cordero (where it took THREE tests before they got a positive?)01:18
de-factoLjL, it certainly would be interesting to have some data about cofactors for that01:18
de-factobn_mobile, i think PCR tests were the first available against SARS-CoV-2 RNA presence01:19
de-factoantigen-quicktests only became available more recently01:19
de-factoalso PCR tests are much more sensitive (and also specific) than antigen-quicktests01:19
LjLwell Nick Cordero died in July01:20
LjLi assume PCR against COVID had been around already for a while in the US before July01:20
LjLi don't know why it'd take three tests to detect it01:20
de-factoso what kind of positive result did Nick Cordero got? positive for SARS-CoV-2 virus or antibodies against it? when was it doen=01:20
de-factodone?01:21
LjLhe was diagnosed on 30 March though01:21
LjLno he was diagnosed at some other time in March, hospitalized on 3001:21
bn_mobilede-facto: are you familiar with the Nick Cordero case?  He was diagnosed ~april/may 2020 with COVID19 but only on the 3rd attempt (he was initially misdiagnosed with just pneumonia)01:21
de-factoit also depends on how well the samples were taken and at what stage of the disease01:21
de-factoi dont know anything about his case01:21
LjLokay then i guess in early March, RT-PCR for COVID was at its start in the US01:21
LjLbn_mobile, wikipedia says "In March 2020, Cordero was diagnosed with COVID-19 and was admitted to a hospital on March 30", are you sure he was misdiagnosed for so long? i should check the citation and maybe correct the article if so01:22
LjLwhat a horror story to just read what happened to him between March and his death :(01:23
LjLhonestly i wish i could tell hospitals not to do things like that to me to keep me alive for so many months in an awful condition and just let me die01:24
bn_mobileI think you're right, march 20 was when when he was "misdiagnosed"01:24
LjLbn_mobile, the citation WP has actually says "Cordero was initially admitted to hospital on 30 March after being diagnosed with pneumonia, and later tested positive for coronavirus" so i think the article is inaccurate and i'll reword it01:24
bn_mobileMarch 30 was when he was admitted the ER, for COVID19 presumably at that point01:25
bn_mobileLjL:  I am already thinking of a COVID19 action plan for myself01:25
bn_mobileHis wife (a dancer) made most of the decisions for him since he was in a coma *shudder*01:26
LjLincidentally i think it's pretty ridiculous that the wikipedia article on COVID-19 is still called "Coronavirus disease 2019". that's totally not the WP:COMMONNAME of the disease01:26
LjLbut all the articles about COVID are under strict moderation so meh01:26
LjLbn_mobile, well i can't make many decisions in advance in italy01:27
LjLi think we now have a tenuous version of a DNR order01:27
LjLbut just barely, and it takes a lot of bureauracy01:27
de-factoactually its quite horrible, from the ones on ventilator only about 50% will ever awake again (from the stats, its 50% on ventilator and 25% deaths, hence i assume 50% of those on ventilator)01:27
bn_mobileInteresting, I'm going by medpagetoday.com/blogs/celebritydiagnosis/8748001:27
LjLi can't just write down what i want done, and expect it to be respected01:27
de-factoso if a doc says "we need to put you on ventilator, i a coma" it means for half of those patients that they never will awake to see their relatives again01:28
de-factoi am talking about stats for ICU admission of course01:29
de-factoso not the normal hospitalized or such01:29
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Boris Johnson 'a liar' who will blame Brexit costs on Covid, says diplomat. Sylvie Bermann, former French ambassador, puts PM’s handling of pandemic alongside Donald Trump’s. → https://is.gd/a68yLV01:29
LjLde-facto, i knew that, but i really get more worried about the other half, if their typical course is to end up like Cordero over several months01:30
de-factohopefully not01:30
bn_mobileSo back to the original question: what test did he have that gave false negatives TWICE?  I am thinking about emailing the LA hospital to ask but doubt they would disclose due to HIPPA laws, wife may not remember either01:31
de-factoidk i would assume at March 30 2020 there were no antigen-quicktests which pretty much only would leave PCR id assume (other than x-rays of the lungs about ground-glass opacification)01:37
bn_mobilede-facto: is that detectable in the beginning?01:38
de-factoalso maybe early tests did not work as well as the optimized versions of today (idk multiple primers etc)? not sure.01:38
de-factoit also very much depends on the quality of samples taken (where and how well)01:39
bn_mobileThey obviously knew the tests weren't accurate as reports indicate the doctors weren't convinced with the two negatives01:39
LjLbn_mobile, no answer to "what test was it" but someone asked why this happens on reddit and there some possible answers that sound... possible https://www.reddit.com/r/China_Flu/comments/gaybyu/covid19_pcr_test_thoughts_on_false_results_and/01:40
bn_mobileI guess my concern was "did that cost them" but it seems like the diagnoses happened fairly quickly so maybe in the end it wasn't an issue01:40
LjLnamely, if you've reached the point where the issue is no longer your upper respiratory airways but the lungs and/or your system, a test with swabs may give a false negative, and also, this sounds... not very sensitive?01:40
LjL"The most recent literature is showing that the more time that passes between initial onset of symptoms and testing, the higher the false negative rate. Journal of Infectious disease published an article on the reliability of different test kits. RT-PCR has the highest sensitivity of 67% (which is pretty terrible) this means that 33% of all negative tests, or 1 in 3, are false negatives... the sensitivity of RT-PCR goes down to about 50% if it’s bee01:41
LjLn more than 6 days since onset of symptoms..."01:41
LjL(it doesn't link to *which* journal of infectious diseases article it is :\)01:41
LjLalso says "I’ve had young otherwise healthy patients in the ICU intubated, proned, and in full blown ARDS who were negative after multiple tests." so presumably this is a doctor or a nurse01:42
de-factoif the virus is not replicating in the upper respiratory tract anymore maybe test results also could be negative for bad samples (viral load on the place where samples are taken too low)? although if it replicates in the lower respiratory tract (lung) there should be even more virions around from aerosol etc01:42
LjL"At this point, we are mainly relying on CT scans and other labs that are known to be abnormal in covid patients. We still test patients, if results are positive we know for sure they have it (RT PCR has high specificity in nasal swabs- there is a really low false positive rate), but if it’s negative we rely more on CT scans."01:42
LjLde-facto, yes, says also "We have had slightly better test accuracy using samples from the lower respiratory tract but this can only be done safely if the pt is intubated."01:42
LjLand with this i think i've copypasted the entire comment01:42
de-factomaybe in such cases some aerosol from exhaling or coughing should be collected for the PCR?01:43
LjLi'm sure they haven't thought of that01:43
de-factoor yeah by direct sampling, but thats more difficult for lower resp tract01:44
pwr22LjL: imagine if EPV combined with SARS-COV-2 and you get COVID-19 plus leukaemia01:44
de-factoyeah it was still very early in 2020, experience was rapidly building up at that time01:44
pwr22Conspiracy Mode On: What about long-covid....01:45
LjLanyway, that troll the other day who insisted (and he's not the only one) that PCR is "fake" and tests "everyone" positive because of too many cycles... clearly if doctors in July were relying more on CT scans than on PCR, they must have been seeing things in those CT scans! but i guess if the troll were here he'd just say "see? that means i'm right because they were giving people invasive ventilation, which kills them, even when they weren't shown to have01:45
LjLCOVID"01:45
de-factowell yeah afaik there were speculations about CLL and those longtime infected COVID patients breeding mutants01:45
de-factopwr22, ^^01:45
LjLpwr22, if long COVID were a form of leukemia i suspect *that* would be big enough we'd know of cases by now?01:46
de-factoreally could be interesting to know more about cross-reactions between EBV and SARS-CoV-201:46
pwr22It might be a type that's slow progressing 😛01:47
pwr22I am joking around here, I don't think it's very likely at all01:47
bn_mobileEBV?01:47
pwr22Mono01:47
bn_mobileDoes anyone know if certain foods "stimulate" SARS-CoV-2 more than others?01:47
de-factoEpstein Barr Virus01:47
pwr22LjL: I do get sick more often than most people with cold / flu seeming things - this all started when I had the "mono but not mono" virus01:48
pwr22Maybe I have a mutant mono01:48
pwr22And I regress into it forever01:48
LjLpwr22, curiosity question, do the things you get sick with give you fever, or do you just feel like crap?01:48
BrainstormUpdates for Reunion: +854 cases (now 12416), +4 deaths (now 52) since 7 days ago — Netherlands: +2056 cases (now 1.1 million) since 22 hours ago — United Kingdom: +7108 cases (now 4.1 million) since 22 hours ago — Germany: +10774 cases (now 2.4 million), +396 deaths (now 69610) since 23 hours ago01:49
de-factothere are some foods that contain molecules that were suspected to act against SARS-CoV-2 (from in-silico studies afaik), also there are foods that influence probability of inflammation and ofc have impact on immune system and coagulation factors, so yes bn_mobile id assume it may play a role but not like a cure or such01:49
pwr22I don't really test my temperature so I wouldn't know01:49
lazysundaydreams%cases Czechia01:49
Brainstormlazysundaydreams: In Czechia, there have been 1.2 million confirmed cases (11.1% of the population) and 19682 deaths (1.7% of cases) as of 15 hours ago. 7.7 million tests were performed (15.4% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 1.2% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 1.9% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Czechia for time series data.01:49
pwr22I feel like crap though yeah01:49
pwr22I even have had several of these things during covid time when I would think I would be less likely01:49
pwr22I've just always said "I have a crap immune system" to people01:50
bn_mobilede-facto: do you remember what those foods were?01:50
LjLpwr22, just 'cause i repeatedly feel like crap and i also feel it started after a random high fever (or i could say back to that high EBV antibody count thing, but that might be a bit too far in the past to be a sensible theory...)01:50
de-factopwr22, well then work on it with food, sports, sleep etc01:50
de-factobn_mobile, oh a lot, actually too many to just list them out of my head01:51
pwr22Sure, I just mean I've previously just assumed I'm catching colds / flu / viruses going around due to "crap immune system"01:51
pwr22Very rarely I've had times where exercise seems to have actually made me sick 😀01:52
pwr22Like acutely I mean01:52
de-factoI try to live more healthy than prior to the pandemic, i eat different foods, i stopped smoking, well i have to work on my attitudes for sleep and sports still though :P01:52
bn_mobileI know many foods help prevent inflammation but I'm wondering if animal protein promotes SARS-CoV-2 activity01:53
lazysundaydreamsseems we're trending here... Sunday... 4k per 10M, Monday 11k per 10M, Tuesday 15.5k of newly diagnosed with around40% positivity among tests01:53
de-factoB.1.1.7 taking off?01:53
lazysundaydreamsyea.. CZ01:53
LjLpwr22, if you have your past blood tests maybe you could have a look at how your EBV antibodies have changed over time, if they were measured multiple times... just out of curiosity i guess, since i doubt a doctor would give oscillating EBV IgG much weight, unless you just happen to find a doctor busy investigating EBV01:53
de-factohttps://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/czech-republic/01:54
LjLthen it has taken off a while ago already01:54
pwr22To be honest top of my physical health concerns right now is the PVNS I had removed from my leg (due a scan that's long delayed due to covid) and my completely unexplained and super early onset high blood pressure01:55
LjLbn_mobile, we can't even figure out whether medications like tocilizumab are helpful or actually make it *worse*. i doubt there are extensive, solid studies on what diet profiles cause what01:55
de-factoin Germany decline in cases were stagnating in the very recent stats they even increase now https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/01:55
pwr22I am part of a research study on the blood pressure front lol01:55
de-factoidiotic politicians had nothing better to do that to open the schools *NOW*01:56
lazysundaydreamsLjL like 14 days ago it was already visible, never seen more incompetent politicians.. feeling like pure eastern economy where the ppl at rule only think where to steal more..01:56
pwr22When they scanned my head to check for aneurysms / damage caused by the high blood pressure they found I have a malformation of the circle of willis and that may or may not be correlated with high blood pressure01:56
de-factoi assume we will have R=1.5 in Germany soon, but oh well i ranted about that often enough01:56
pwr22de-facto: sounds like the same thing UK politicians want ot do01:57
pwr22Open up all the schools asap01:57
LjLugh01:57
LjLy'all distracted me01:57
LjLnow i don't know whether i've taken a pill or not01:57
pwr22Sorry :(01:57
pwr22Speaking of which I need to take my meds01:57
lazysundaydreamsde-facto yes, open schools and test every kid with pretty disputable test kits where only two companies want to deliver them - one from PM and on from health minister01:58
lazysundaydreams(companies with unkown owner etc etc, you know that song..)01:58
de-factoif only there were *any* hygiene concepts for opening schools or such dangerous thing, no pilot projects (with stats about what to expect), no testing strategy, no strategy at all, absolutely nothing based on any scientific concepts01:59
de-factothey just are like "now we open schools, we dont care about any scientific facts, when we ignore them everything will be just fine", well we will see in a months when we are in the 3rd wave02:00
de-factoin one month, probably it will be visible from early March when more than 50% of new infections will be from B.1.1.702:01
lazysundaydreamsyou have to think about it like "few milions of test kits x huge margin = profit".. see, opening schools makes sense...02:02
LjLi don't think the test manufacturers are the ones who decide whether to open schools O.o02:02
lazysundaydreamsthat's why we have some crisis budget topped with few tens of milion euros02:02
de-factothere are no tests at all for schools here, they just opened this week02:02
de-factoit will take some time until this will have impact on incidence though02:03
de-factoid assume a few weeks at least02:03
de-factoinfection chains have to build up, prevalence has to raise in the cohort of the young again (right now its quite low still)02:03
de-facto*rise02:04
de-factodangit my spelling sucks02:04
bn_mobileIs opacification of lung tissue detectable in early x-rays?02:04
lazysundaydreamsLjL there are two companies that "competed" for kits delivery, one connected to people around PM, second to ppl around health ministry.. thankfully we have some free media left so they had to stop this deal02:04
LjLlazysundaydreams, investigative media too apparently, as opposed to media who just regurgitate from news agencies! that's unusual these days02:05
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Moderna Announces it has Shipped Variant-Specific Vaccine Candidate, mRNA-1273.351, to NIH for Clinical Study (82 votes) | https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-it-has-shipped-variant-specific-vaccine/ | https://redd.it/lroz2y02:05
de-factobn_mobile, its a marker of inflammation "heavy lungs" where normally should be air "light lungs" there is some water or more dense substances (hence the opacities on the x-rays)02:05
bn_mobileCan someone tell me why flight attendants are considered priority recipients for vaccines?02:06
de-factoso its when the lungs are inflamed (afaik it does not hurt since there are no nerves directly there)02:06
bn_mobilein the US that is02:06
de-factobecause flights are "corona variant hubs"?02:06
LjLflight attendants have contact with a ton of people02:07
de-factohow would all those variants distribute so fast without flights?02:07
bn_mobilede-facto :  right, but are those detectable early on?  It's only later on that one can diagnose by that, no?02:07
de-factoif one of such flight attendants would be a super spreader the potential spread radios essentially would be global (on the whole planet) thanks to those lovely passenger flights still tolerated02:08
LjLbn_mobile, iunno but logic wise, i assume if they could diagnose COVID just by x-rays they wouldn't use CT scans (which are still x-rays, i know, but you know what i mean)02:08
de-factobn_mobile, idk what do you mean with early on? if the disease progressed to lower respiratory tract id assume02:08
bn_mobileBut if you are vaccinated that doesn't prevent you from carrying the virus, it only makes you immune (for a while)?02:09
de-factoyeah i meant computed tomography by x-rays the whole time, excuse my imprecise wording02:09
de-factoit was known almost from begin because the Chinese published it as one quite reliable diagnostic method02:09
LjLbn_mobile, we don't really know that fully... except THAT was what i forgot that i wanted to remember the other day! that there was some news about the xyz vaccine and prevention of actual infections02:10
LjLi think02:10
de-factofor those that showed up at hospitals id assume02:10
de-factohence probably not without reason02:10
LjLokay so now i can grep for uh, vaccine and...02:10
bn_mobilede-facto: np, I wasn't debating CT vs x-ray, just whether it's something detectable in week 1 (for ex)02:10
LjLvaccine and "did i take this pill". i need IRC logs for my IRL actions02:11
de-factoi dont think it would happen 1 week after exposure02:11
de-factoincubation time is ~5.2 days at median (half faster, half slower) and by then it would start in the upper resp tract (unless infection was by starting by aerosol in the lower resp tract from begin i assume02:12
de-factoit varies a lot by individual cases though02:13
de-factoactually thats almost like one characteristic of COVID that it tends to vary a lot from case to case (in terms of timescales, progressions, severity, symptoms, organs affected etc)02:15
de-factosome factors are known (such as risk factor being an exponential of age), but others probably still unknown, hence my fascination about speculative cross correlations such as with EBV etc02:15
lazysundaydreamsI ocassionally find myself trying to self-diagnose if the lung capacity goes down.. having false positives, especially when stoned and being late, also coughing a bit..02:18
LjLhave you considered that being stoned may be conductive to getting COVID-19 and/or having a worse presentation of it02:20
bn_mobileAspirin as a mild blood thinner has been recommended as a prophylactic for COVID patients as it also reduces inflammation but I wonder if it's double edged because early on it will artificially dampen fever temps, an indicator of body immune system activity?02:27
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Only 15% of AstraZeneca vaccine available in Germany has been used → https://is.gd/swTTC402:27
LjLbn_mobile, i wouldn't think so but i think i remember it being potentially double-edged for other reasons (i.e. some studies said it helped, some that it could make things worse)02:28
LjLdon't really remember what the reasons were though02:29
LjLbn_mobile, on the other hand, damn me if i find the actual thing i was trying to remember (which was related to this but i thought it was in this channel's logs), anyway, this should be a partial answer to one of your questions https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-pfizer-vaccine-may-reduce-transmission02:29
bn_mobileInitial reports indicated NSAIDs were contraindicated, later WHO reverted their recommendation02:30
LjLoh yeah there was a whole NSAID drama thing, i recall vaguely02:30
pwr22NSAIDs can affect breathing negatively so I guess that was why?02:34
pwr22Personally, even having ibuprofen in my mouth / throat starts my chest tightening and coughing02:34
pwr22The liquid version of it is lethal to me ha02:35
bn_mobileLjL: thanks, so I guess that confirms what I stated02:37
bn_mobileNSAIDs affect breathing?02:38
LjLbn_mobile, didn't you say that vaccines *don't* prevent transmission?02:41
bn_mobileSo inoculate your flight attendants, they survive but if you encounter one, you may be more (or less) likely to be infected since they've had more contacts (but it balances out since they carry "less"?)02:42
bn_mobileLjL:  that's what that article implied, no?  They carry "less", which is > 0?02:44
LjLalso, bn_mobile and de-facto, i think this was perhaps one of the two studies that i was looking for the other day: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.15.21251623v2 from the abstract it's not clear, but it was cited by the CNN and others as "Vaccines may prevent infection and not just symptoms, study suggests", so if you look at the PDF my understanding is they actually took PCR tests of people without waiting for symptoms, so this would02:44
LjLrelate to vaccine effectiveness in preventing infection itself. de-facto probably should have a good look at this in case he determines i'm drunk, though02:44
LjLbn_mobile, of course it's >0. we also know that some of the people who take the vaccine still get even *symptomatic* COVID, so, duh, of course it's > 0. these things are rarely black or white, you're going to have a degree of effectiveness02:45
bn_mobileThe article even went on to mention people that got infected within (12?) days of inoculation carried more viral load?02:45
LjLand the thing annoys me a bit because it went on like this02:45
LjL"we don't know whether the vaccine *also* prevent infections and not just symptoms"02:45
LjLwhich was turned by a lot of media "vaccines DON'T prevent infection, just symptoms"02:46
LjLwhen i was like "uh, wait, no, we don't that", people said "prove it"02:46
LjLthen now they are indications they may prevent infections too, you say it actually confirms what you said because they are not proven to prevent 100% of them? which they couldn't right off the bat because they had symptomatic people who took the vaccine02:47
LjLbn_mobile, people who are infected within 12 days of taking the vaccine are not considered to be protected by the vaccine02:47
LjLin any way whatsoever02:47
LjLthis is also not new02:47
LjLbut i guess they may carry more viral load because, after all, there is some degree of protection, so only people who get a lot of initial viral load "defeat" the vaccine during the first 12 days. that's just a random conjecture, but again, what happens during the first 12 days is out of the analysis of effectiveness of all vaccines02:48
LjLballpark figures: the recent study that looked at what happens after the first shot found you have 85%ish protection after 40 days or so. but if you include the initial 12 days, then that's more like 50%. so completely different figures. it must be very clear that first the first couple of weeks after taking a vaccine, you are basically NOT protected02:49
LjLnot from infection, not from symptoms, not from dying, not from anything, as far as we know02:49
bn_mobileOk, so was my comment earlier about the flight attendant ex. accurate?02:51
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Meat-eating creates risk of new pandemic that ‘would make Covid look like a dress rehearsal’ → https://is.gd/8yJnS502:51
bn_mobileThe probability they are carrying is higher but if they are vaccinated they would be carrying less of it I guess?02:52
LjLbn_mobile, it's utter speculation, so i don't know. my guess, also based on these three studies i've mentioned, would be that protecting the flight attendants would largely protect people they meet, too02:52
LjL"largely" doesn't mean 100%, but i would bet on a dramatic abatement of contagion, statistically02:52
bn_mobileAre you considered a carrier only if you get infected?  I thought these things can still travel on clothes, etc. in-vitro?02:56
LjLokay well it's probably unlikely to get infected that way but since we don't really know for sure, then no, obviously vaccine can't magically protect people from carrying it on their clothes02:56
bn_mobileBasically there are two variables that are working against each other02:57
LjLso if that's what you were thinking of when you first asked, then you're definitely right, vaccinated people can still carry it. on their clothes.02:57
lazysundaydreamstoo many variables, too much uncertainty, combined with pretty lowered chance to avoid, one should try to stay focused to staying focused on things of usual living02:57
LjLtwo?02:58
LjLif you only see two variables you must have reduced things to a bare minimum02:58
lazysundaydreamswhat bothers me are the endless possibilities cause nobody knows the long term issues02:58
CoronaBot/r/covid19: NIH launches new initiative to study “Long COVID” (80 votes) | https://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statements/nih-launches-new-initiative-study-long-covid | https://redd.it/lrheqs02:59
lazysundaydreamsLjL that's a reaction to your like last 10-15 minutes02:59
bn_mobileInoculation would prevent the person from becoming infected / symptomatic, but a flight attendant interacts with more people on a daily basis so they are more likely to carry it (thus the reason for inoculation to begin with)02:59
bn_mobile"carry"02:59
LjLwell, what should i say, in my opinion NO, it's not the reason for inoculating them; the big reason for inoculating them is protecting *others*03:00
LjLeven if they still can carry it on their clothes03:00
LjLeven if the protection is not 100% or even 90%03:00
bn_mobileSo they won't be spreading it by coughing / sneezing/ shedding lots of viral load but their clothes/articles may have it?03:01
LjLthere are all sorts of reasons to believe that, if a flight attendant is vaccinated, fewer people (not even counting the flight attendant) will get the virus03:01
LjLyes, but we have practically no idea whether fomites are a viable means of transmission, and the suspicion for the past few months has been "probably not nearly as often as airborne transmission"03:02
bn_mobileLjL: re. "two":  I was talking about in this particular analysis, there are others that probably influence this too.03:03
lazysundaydreamsyea lowering the rate or amount of infected is the most important thing.. like in my country they are atm counting the remaining free beds(mean with staff to care) at hospitals in ones and zeroes..03:03
lazysundaydreamspractically the numbers from Italy last Feb03:03
de-factoLjL, not sure i you have catched it but previously i linked an article about a comment on a preprint paper soon to be available about vaccine efficacy in Israel https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/expert-reaction-to-preprint-looking-at-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-in-israel/03:04
LjLplus, here you'd be talking, assuming the flight attendant doesn't get infected despite the vaccine, about coming in contact with the virus, then coming in contact with a surface, then YOU coming in contact with that surface (unless you like to touch flight attendants themselves). so if fomites were an unlikely route in the first place, there would likely be a fair amount of dilution involved here03:04
LjLde-facto, i hadn't seen that03:05
bn_mobileNote, I'm not arguing against inoculation (or inoculation against flight attendants), I'm just trying to understand the exact risks that are being reduced.  The initial logic seems sound.03:05
bn_mobile& yes, that is better nothing03:06
de-facto"It shows that the vaccine is highly effective at preventing Covid-19. Vaccine efficacy against all SARS-CoV-2 infections (including asymptomatic infection) was estimated to be 89.4%, rising to 93.3% for hospitalisations, 93.9% for severe illness, and – at least in the study period, 92.9% for deaths."03:07
de-factothat would suggest almost no contributions by asymptomatic carriers, hence i am a bit skeptic about that claim, would love to see their data03:07
de-factoHaas EJ, Angulo FJ, McLaughlin JM, Anis E, Singer SR, Khan F, et al. BNT162b2 effectiveness against SARS-CoV-2 infections and COVID-19, Israel [pre-print]. Pre-print 2021.03:08
de-factocould not find that one yet03:08
bn_mobileFlight attendant hands you a drink or helps you with your bag?03:08
LjLde-facto, they make a note on asymptomatics later03:08
LjL"The biggest shortcoming in the paper – for an international audience, at least – is that it is sketchy about Covid-19 testing. The paper states that ‘testing is free-of-charge and widely available in Israel’ – but it is not clear what triggers testing, who is tested and why, and so it is hard to make out what biases there might be on, in particular, collection of data on asymptomatic infections. (This is not necessarily a shortcomi03:09
LjLng in the study – it could be that this is well-described elsewhere, and editorial demands to keep the word count down precluded providing a more detailed description.)"03:09
bn_mobileAccidental contact could be possible then?03:09
LjLof course it's possible03:09
LjLit's also possible the vaccine doesn't work at all for that particular flight attendant03:09
LjLin which case they are going to be infected and infectious03:10
bn_mobileMy point is they on avg interact with MORE people than you or I.  It like the difference between lethality & likely03:10
bn_mobiles/It/It's/03:10
de-factobtw since you were talking about vaccine efficacy there is a interesting preprint givng a graph for that by day after first primer dose03:10
de-facto.title  https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.01.21250957v1.full Figure 3 "Estimated vaccine effectiveness on each day from day 13 to 24 after a single dose with upper and lower 90% credible intervals."03:11
Brainstormde-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Estimating the effectiveness of the Pfizer COVID-19 BNT162b2 vaccine after a single dose. A reanalysis of a study of ‘real-world’ vaccination outcomes from Israel | medRxiv03:11
LjLyes and that's the reason why it's MORE key to vaccinate them than to vaccinate me, but i also want to stress that it protects OTHER people than them. yes of course there are still a million of ways in which they could potentially transfer the disease, but i am quite confident that being vaccinated will cut out a *very significant* portion of them03:11
LjLi don't know how else to turn this around anymore though03:11
LjLif someone spits on the tray they carry and then you lick the tray, their being vaccinated won't make any difference. does it matter when deciding whether to vaccinate them? i'd say not at all03:12
LjL(if you said "it matters because it means we should stop all flights", then i would say "point", but we already have de-facto for that)03:12
LjLde-facto, i think i've seen this one before because i remember the passage "he cause of the initial surge in infection risk is unknown but may be related to people being less cautious about maintaining protective behaviours as soon as they have the injection"03:14
de-factoyeah i linked it many times already, because i like that graph :)03:14
LjLde-facto, i guess it makes me think that when i tell people they shouldn't expect any protection and still be very careful at least for the first couple of weeks, maybe i should make it three weeks instead03:16
LjLat day 18 protection is still pretty low03:17
LjLi mean, it's better than AZ gives you, but still low :P03:17
LjL(that was kind of a joke)03:17
de-factowell as long as we dont know the real protection for transmission (also for the VoCs) vaccinated people should just participate in the NPIs like everyone else, imho vaccine "green passports" are not such a brilliant idea03:19
de-factoalso vaccinations are not "the" solution for all of our problems, hence we should not put all our eggs into one basket, for sure they will help a lot with dealing with the more severe problems such as hospitalizations and fatalities03:19
LjLde-facto, forget about passports, but i don't think it's realistic at all to expect that vaccinated people will behave as carefully as they did before getting vaccinated. obviously they should respect mandatory measures like masks just like everybody else, but really i don't think it's realistic they'll be nearly as careful in general03:21
de-factoand hey if it will turn out better than what we expected (e.g. if they really would protect like 90% from transmissions) that would be awesome, yet we should not assume that until we know of sure (because otherwise we might have to deal with the problems arising from that miss-assumption)03:21
LjLyou can't disregard psychological aspects. people's behavior changes depending on the perceived risk, and it won't stop just because you say it should03:22
LjLit's just one variable like the many others03:22
LjLyou can't wish it away03:22
de-factoLjL, unfortunately you probably are correct with such an assumption because the personal risk for people (of getting severe progressions or even fatal outcomes) (fortunately) is significantly lowered by vaccinations03:23
de-factoyeah03:23
de-factopsychological aspects are a very significant factor in the progression of this pandemic, not only distinguishing cultures that prioritize more the individualism from those that focus more on the population as a whole etc03:25
de-factodangit i have to get some sleep, have to wake up in less than 6h03:25
LjLand i have to calm down because all this study hunting has agitated me :(03:25
LjLnight03:26
de-factogn803:26
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Covid2019: U.S. is ready to roll out J&J vaccine ‘without delay,’ pending FDA clearance, Biden health officials say: ready to deliver up to 4 million doses of Johnson & Johnson’s Covid-19 vaccine as soon as next week if the FDA authorizes the shot for emergency use → https://is.gd/H6Kecw03:29
bn_mobileLjL:  I think we're actually in agreement here.  Yes, I agree, it does protect other people, & inoculating FAs seems like a good idea because more shedding leads to more vectors if they got infected, I'm just saying the probability of them vs you/I carrying it to begin with (either on their clothes or by shedding) is higher purely by the # of interactions their job requires of them.  I was just trying to figure out03:35
bn_mobilewhich was the more significant statistical variable earlier.03:35
LjLbn_mobile, i don't think you can just "race" those two variables though. like, let's say they are 1000% as likely as you to get exposed to someone quite infectious. let's say that at the same time, the vaccine protects them 90% from infection. you could infer you end up with the same risk as the average unvaccinated person... but i suspect that's not the case. instead, i suspect that the unlucky 10% of flight attendants where the vaccine isn't quite03:40
LjLeffective will get infected just as much as they would before, while the other 90% just won't get infected03:40
bn_mobileLjL:  you bring up a valid point, I have one friend who initially tested positive via the rapid antigen test (self-quarantined) then tested negative via the PCR & antibody test.  He is very confused right now, I asked what he would do differently if he had been positive & survived.  He said he would be less risk averse.03:40
LjL(90% is an optimistic figure for "prevention from infection", i just wanted to deal with easy numbers)03:40
LjLbn_mobile, that would confuse me too, but... what sort of antibody test did he have? peripheral blood (finger prick) or central blood?03:42
bn_mobileLjL:  yes, for 90%, but that 10% would now become super spreaders all the while everyone thinking they were ok.  I can see why the comment of Green Passports earlier would be bad.03:48
LjLbn_mobile, agreed, there could be a "happy careless vaccinated" effect. but i think such an effect would be worse for regular people than for a profession like flight attendants. like, flight attendants will still mostly be doing the same things, including wearing masks on the plane if that's airline policy... while a regular person may become a lot more careless03:50
LjLof course there aren't just "flights attendants" and "regular people", ever person is in a different situation, but you know, i just think at least while on the job, flight attendants are among the more "just have to do whatever company says" types03:51
bn_mobileLjL:  he said it came from his arm, so probably "central" (blood sample)?03:52
LjLyes03:52
LjLso that should be relatively reliable03:52
LjLit's more likely he got a false positive from the rapid test03:52
bn_mobileLjL:  there is a very cool epidemic simulation by 3Blue1Brown that explored the infection models based on behavior probabilities (apologies in advance if I had forgotten I had shared this previously):  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gxAaO2rsdIs03:59
LjLbn_mobile, oh yeah i've seen that, long ago though04:01
bn_mobileI wonder if that may help answer the question I posed earlier04:03
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine works well in big ‘real world’ test, prevents death: Israel study → https://is.gd/0qsGyT04:31
bn_mobileThe thing that confuses me about my friend's case is the rapid antigen test is supposedly more likely to be wrong for negatives vs positives.  Was he a statistical anomaly?  One thing he complained about is that they inserted the swab in only one nostril, which to me would lead me think it more of a confirmation vs disconfirmation of the result?04:46
LjLbn_mobile, it does sound a little weird to me, but there's a crapton of different antigen tests, like really many, and while yeah i also think in general, in theory, a false negative is more likely than a false positive, i still would tend to blame the rapid test over a proper blood test for antibodies04:49
bn_mobileThis is why I brought up the Nick Cordero testing weirdness, like how many times should one test on avg?  3? Lol04:58
LjLbn_mobile, i don't know, i would hope testing has improved since last march, but... i don't know05:07
LjLi fear this will go on virtually forever if we keep doing things this shoddily as we seem to have, in just about every possible way :(05:08
LjLmeanwhile our politicians are like "if.... then we can hope to be back to normality after this summer"05:08
LjLyeah sure05:08
LjLwe totally are going to have everyone vaccinated by summer, they must have looked at the Israel vaccination curve and thought it read "EU"05:09
pugusasi'm thinking that logistics and antivax rumors may end up the issue > supply05:21
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: New coronavirus variant identified in New York: Research → https://is.gd/Gh1res05:46
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Cautious Asia nations finally fire starting gun on vaccines → https://is.gd/4j4bzo05:58
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Health: Have mild COVID symptoms? Ayurvedic doctor shares effective home remedies → https://is.gd/PeJvwA06:23
BrainstormNew preprint: Impact of the Tier system on SARS-CoV-2 transmission in the UK between the first and second national lockdowns by Daniel J Laydon et al, made available as preprint on 2021-02-24 at https://medrxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2021.02.23.21252277 [... want %more?]06:59
BrainstormNew from Science-Based Medicine: Bills eliminating school immunizations and other anti-vaccination measures confront state legislatures: Bills eliminating school immunizations and expanding exemptions are pending in state legislatures. Other state bills strengthen immunization requirements by eliminating exemptions, among other measures. An [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/EEdAyA07:13
BrainstormUpdates for Cambodia: +64 cases (now 697) since a day ago — Belgium: +3113 cases (now 760809), +32 deaths (now 21988) since a day ago — New Zealand: +3 cases (now 2368) since a day ago07:17
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: pfizer-BionTech vaccine is 94% effective, study of 1.2m people in Israel finds → https://is.gd/lRedVH07:25
BrainstormUpdates for Vinnytsia Oblast, Ukraine: +601 cases (now 33983), +10 deaths (now 633) since 23 hours ago — France: +23670 cases (now 3.7 million), +208 deaths (now 85328) since 23 hours ago — Lombardy, Italy: +3310 cases (now 586561), +38 deaths (now 28184) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +9948 cases (now 4.2 million), +442 deaths (now 121863) since 23 hours ago07:42
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Bernie Sanders Slams Israel for Sending COVID Vaccines Abroad While Palestinians 'Still Waiting' → https://is.gd/EEkHJv08:39
zutt%cases finland08:55
Brainstormzutt: In Finland, there have been 55122 confirmed cases (1.0% of the population) and 737 deaths (1.3% of cases) as of 19 hours ago. 3.2 million tests were performed (1.7% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 0.8% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 1.8% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Finland for time series data.08:55
BrainstormNew from WHO Euro: New policy brief calls on decision-makers to support patients as 1 in 10 report symptoms of “long COVID”: Some 1 in 10 people still experience persistent ill health 12 weeks after having COVID-19, termed “long COVID” or post-COVID conditions. A new policy brief from the European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/y3R7Em09:04
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: A poet in China Sentenced to Six Months Over COVID-19 Poem → https://is.gd/Oj7iv609:39
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Coronavirus: one of UK's largest care home firms introduces 'no jab, no job' policy → https://is.gd/bucrn310:04
zutt%cases denmark10:05
Brainstormzutt: In Denmark, there have been 209423 confirmed cases (3.6% of the population) and 2346 deaths (1.1% of cases) as of 2 hours ago. 16.4 million tests were performed (1.3% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 3.2% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 1.2% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Denmark for time series data.10:05
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: BLM launches Survival Fund amid federal COVID-19 relief wait → https://is.gd/uwDXRx10:27
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Health: ‘We need to get in the room’: Hospital chaplains struggle to balance Covid safety with patients’ spiritual needs → https://is.gd/hKlb3g10:40
BrainstormUpdates for Estonia: +1152 cases (now 61627), +10 deaths (now 567) since a day ago10:55
bn_mobileNot a medical journal but interesting discussion on whether stomach acid ph inactivates CV :  https://medium.com/@adrien.burch/can-stomach-acid-kill-coronavirus-b73a2032028f tl:dr; maybe, but many variables11:18
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Art and Culture: New normal? ‘Green Pass’ opens music concert to vaccinated Israelis → https://is.gd/uzu0wB11:47
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: China denies subjecting US diplomats to COVID19 anal tests → https://is.gd/iNNIZS11:59
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Is more simply better? Why Pfizer thinks a booster of its Covid vaccine might work against new variants: Could the solution to emerging variants of the coronavirus that causes Covid-19, some of which seem to make current vaccines less effective, be more of the current vaccines? → https://is.gd/24ECus12:59
BrainstormNew from StatNews: GlaxoSmithKline Covid-19 drug falls short in trial, but may benefit older patients: An experimental rheumatoid arthritis drug being developed by GlaxoSmithKline failed to show a significant benefit in hospitalized patients with Covid-19, the drug maker said. → https://is.gd/H1rdkH13:12
BrainstormNew from BMJ: Covid-19: One in seven people in England have antibodies from infection or vaccination, finds study: Almost 14% of people in England now have evidence of antibodies against SARS-CoV-2, according to the fifth round of the Real-time assessment of community transmission (React-2) study.1The study, led... → https://is.gd/LrfKHN13:37
BrainstormNew from EMA: What's new: General: COVID-19: latest updates → https://is.gd/ejWHzQ14:01
BrainstormNew from WHO Euro: WHO/Europe calls for action on post-COVID conditions/“long COVID”: Today, we shed light on the fact that in some patients, the disability following SARS-CoV-2 infection lingers for months, with severe social, economic, health and occupational consequences. → https://is.gd/RYJGuc14:14
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Draghi incontra l’inviato speciale del Presidente della Repubblica Democratica del Congo ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/draghi-incontra-l-inviato-speciale-del-presidente-della-repubblica-democratica-del-congo )14:20
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Biotech: STAT+: CytoDyn has data on its highly touted experimental Covid treatment. Investors and patients don’t → https://is.gd/nOl8ip14:39
de-facto.title https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-details/pfizer-and-biontech-initiate-study-part-broad-development-plan15:01
Brainstormde-facto: From investors.biontech.de: Pfizer and BioNTech Initiate a Study as Part of Broad Development Plan to Evaluate COVID-19 Booster and New Vaccine Variants | BioNTech15:01
de-facto.tell LjL https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-details/pfizer-and-biontech-initiate-study-part-broad-development-plan15:01
Brainstormde-facto, I'll pass LjL your message when they are around.15:01
BrainstormNew from NIH Director's blog: Using R2D2 to Understand RNA Folding: If you love learning more about biology at a fundamental level, I have a great video for you! It simulates the 3D folding of RNA. RNA is a single stranded molecule, but it is still capable of forming internal loops that can be stabilized by base pairing, just like its famously [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/8KfoEa15:04
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: Johnson and Johnson vaccine: FDA finds the single-shot jab safe: US regulators say Johnson and Johnson's single-shot vaccine is safe, and could be approved in days. → https://is.gd/kHcwld15:17
BrainstormUpdates for Switzerland: +1169 cases (now 553867), +4 deaths (now 9946) since 15 hours ago15:22
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Videoconferenza informale dei membri del Consiglio europeo ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/videoconferenza-informale-dei-membri-del-consiglio-europeo/16323 )15:25
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: Moderna proceeds with a vaccine trial to combat Covid-19 variant; who will be the next FDA commish? → https://is.gd/H5uNeI15:30
bn_mobileDoes anyone know the detection rate of CV in urine?   I'm guessing it's low so it's not used much?  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7266575/#!po=25.000015:35
bn_mobileSome other analysis suggestions if basing it off urine:  https://www.diasys-diagnostics.com/blog/urine-test-for-early-detection-of-severe-covid-19-course/15:39
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Conversazione telefonica Draghi - Macron ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/conversazione-telefonica-draghi-macron/16324 )15:50
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Israel blocks shipment of Russian Sputnik V vaccine to Gaza → https://is.gd/VLXlhh15:56
de-factoafaik PCR of sewage treatment plants is a screening method that is supposed to work, because SARS-CoV-2 infection goes down both, respiratory tract as well as gastro-intestinal tract (where its RNA is detectable even if upper resp tract is clear). Unclear if its infectious16:25
de-factobut i would assume its not so much the urine but the feces where that RNA is detectable16:26
de-factoalso was suggested to use that for screening schools, yet its questionable if every kid goes for a big deal into school toilets or prefers to do that at home16:28
de-factoalso was suggested to take samples for PCR from that, because even if it shows up later there it might be for longer time hence more reliably detect even if samples for upper resp tract already would be negative. what that means for infectiousness is unclear but id assume if upper resp tract is negative infectiousness is low even if fecal samples are still positive16:31
de-factomight even be like the "garbage trashbin" for removing inactivated virions or such16:31
de-factothat it might cause diarrhea comes for the fact that there are quite a lot of ACE2 receptors in the small intestine16:32
de-factothe reaction to viral infections in the intestine is to try to get rid of those by increasing secretion etc hence diarrhea16:33
de-factobut that is not necessarily the case for every such infection, so might even be PCR positive without diarrhea16:33
bn_mobileDe-facto:  "a previous study indicated that SARS-CoV-2 RNA isolated from urine might be infectious [9]. An autopsy case suggesting direct infection of the renal tubular epithelium was also reported.10 Together, these reports indicate that SARS-CoV-2 RNA in the urine is infectious." [9] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3234272416:51
bn_mobile(this was from the first link I posted earlier)16:54
bn_mobile"In conclusion, our results suggest that SARS-CoV-2 RNA may be excreted in the urine depending on the severity of COVID-19. Although the period of viral shedding in the urine is relatively short, HCWs should also take infection prevention and control measures when handling urine, particularly samples from patients with moderate to severe COVID-19."16:54
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +10132 cases (now 2.4 million) since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +4809 cases (now 1.1 million), +42 deaths (now 15468) since 17 hours ago17:19
generaCWA has 1186917:27
CoronaBot/r/coronavirus: C.D.C. Traces Covid Outbreaks in Gyms, Urging Stricter Precautions (10102 votes) | https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/24/health/coronavirus-gyms-outbreaks.html | https://redd.it/lrqygk17:35
IndoAnonhmmm17:44
IndoAnonhttps://cdn.jwplayer.com/manifests/S5a4xrZy.m3u8   LjL ,what did he said?17:45
BrainstormUpdates for United Kingdom: +6652 cases (now 4.2 million), +255 deaths (now 121932) since 23 hours ago17:50
BrainstormNew from EMA: What's new: General: COVID-19 guidance: assessment and marketing authorisation → https://is.gd/H1n0K718:07
de-factointeresting, guess makes sense if it can do renal infections18:58
BrainstormNew from In The Pipeline: Vetiver: In my experience, most organic and medicinal chemists are always ready to hear about the latest results in two branches of the science: things that explode and things with weird smells. Maybe we are in our way “singularly in touch with the primitive promptings of humanity”, as Captain Grimes says in Decline and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/Gkiy4b19:24
BrainstormUpdates for Italy: +308 deaths (now 96974) since a day ago — Switzerland: +11 deaths (now 9953) since 20 hours ago19:42
CoronaBot/r/covid19: A Novel SARS-CoV-2 Variant of Concern, B.1.526, Identified in New York (86 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.02.23.21252259v1 | https://redd.it/ls3e8s20:00
BrainstormNew from Scientific American: Massive Google-Funded COVID Database Will Track Variants and Immunity: A nurse checks the temperature of a woman on July 3, 2020, at Havana's Jose Marti international airport amid the COVID-19 pandemic. → https://is.gd/hYZTzb20:24
BrainstormUpdates for France: +19262 cases (now 3.7 million), +181 deaths (now 85460) since 23 hours ago — Spain: +345 deaths (now 68813) since a day ago — Canada: +57 deaths (now 21845) since 23 hours ago20:44
de-factoayayay another VOC?20:54
de-facto.title https://cov-lineages.org/lineages/lineage_B.1.526.html20:57
Brainstormde-facto: From cov-lineages.org: PANGO lineages20:57
Brainstormde-facto: From cov-lineages.org: PANGO lineages20:57
de-factouhm why two times?20:58
de-factoBrainstorm became multivalent just because vaccines would?20:58
de-facto%cases COVID21:03
Brainstormde-facto: Sorry, COVID not found. Either there aren't cases, or it's under a different name.21:03
de-factooh such an optimist, must be the sun :P21:03
LjL:P21:03
LjLsometimes it just posts things twice, all sorts of things. it's an issue with the bot core21:04
LjLwhich i'll hopefully replace with something modern one day21:04
de-factoBrainstorm is awesome, such a good bot21:04
LjLand yes, i read about the NY thing yesterday, it looks like it has the worrisome mutations :(21:04
* de-facto pets Brainstorm21:04
* Brainstorm starts to think de-facto with some worshipful cooking chocolate 21:04
de-factoaaw :D21:04
de-factoLjL, what does it mean that https://cov-lineages.org/lineages/lineage_B.1.526.html states 99% in USA21:06
de-factothat its only ever found there or that its the vast majority of sequences in all of sequences?21:06
LjLno i'm sure it means 99% of it has been found in the USA, then 1% in Singapore21:07
LjLit's mostly in New York so it definitely doesn't represent 99% of US cases21:07
de-factoits a bit weird, for B.1.1.7 it may mean of all sequences (but a bit outdated for EU states) https://cov-lineages.org/lineages/lineage_B.1.1.7.html21:08
de-factohmm21:08
LjLde-facto, have you seen the news above about the Google-funded database? it's already available, https://global.health/ - for "Data" you need an account so i didn't check that out yet, but the "Map", while lacking a few countries (Italy isn't there), has a regional view (Germany is there)21:08
LjLthe data in this DB supposedly include data on variants21:09
de-factointeresting21:10
de-factoalso GISAID probably contains a lot of most recent datasets21:10
de-factook just requires an email and verification code21:14
de-factohmm Germany got the most cases in that DB, how come?21:16
de-factoi think its like a case tracker from official upstreams with search functionality21:17
de-factohttps://github.com/globaldothealth21:20
BrainstormUpdates for Netherlands: +4810 cases (now 1.1 million) since 21 hours ago21:21
de-factothey provide 10M cases in a 168MB tar.gz21:26
de-factocontaining a 4.5GB csv WHOA21:26
BrainstormNew from Virological.org: Latest posts: Outbreak.info: SARS-CoV-2 Mutation Situation Reports: outbreak.info: SARS-CoV-2 Mutation Situation Reports Emily Haag, Alaa Abdel Latif, Karthik Gangavarapu, Julia L. Mullen, Ginger Tsueng, Nate Matteson, Mark Zeller,  Chunlei Wu, Kristian G. Andersen, Andrew I. Su, Laura D. Hughes,  and the Center for Viral [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/9CLCjz21:28
de-factohmm how do i relogin? or would I have to register every time i want to login?21:30
de-factosigning in forces me to check "By creating an account, I accept the Global.health Terms of Use and Privacy Policy *" well its already created21:37
de-factohmm i think its not ready for use yet21:37
de-factoLjL, i think i understand it now: i guess from all sequences for a variant available (e.g. 10 sequences) its the portion of origin countries, so if 99% of B.1.526 come from USA it just means its only there, but does not tell anything about what part of all positive cases it presents. maybe it was 99 sequences in USA and 1 sequence from somewhere else21:39
LjLde-facto: well that's what I said :P specifically in that case it says 99% came from the US and the rest from Singapore (maybe someone flying there from NY)21:43
de-factoyeah21:45
de-factoLjL,  btw did you get my message about BNT updating for variants aswell?21:52
de-factothat means all three mRNA manufacturers are working on new variants, Moderna, BioNTech and CureVac21:53
LjLde-facto: I don't think so, was it recently? It looks like I've gotten disconnected multiple times21:53
de-facto.title https://investors.biontech.de/news-releases/news-release-details/pfizer-and-biontech-initiate-study-part-broad-development-plan21:53
Brainstormde-facto: From investors.biontech.de: Pfizer and BioNTech Initiate a Study as Part of Broad Development Plan to Evaluate COVID-19 Booster and New Vaccine Variants | BioNTech21:53
de-facto.title https://www.curevac.com/en/2021/02/05/curevac-and-uk-government-to-collaborate-on-development-of-vaccines-against-sars-cov-2-variants/21:54
Brainstormde-facto: From www.curevac.com: CureVac and UK Government to collaborate on development of vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 variants - CureVac21:54
de-facto.title https://www.gsk.com/en-gb/media/press-releases/gsk-and-curevac-to-develop-next-generation-mrna-covid-19-vaccines/21:54
Brainstormde-facto: From www.gsk.com: GSK and CureVac to develop next generation mRNA COVID-19 vaccines | GSK21:54
de-facto.title https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-it-has-shipped-variant-specific-vaccine21:54
de-factoah i got disconnected too multiple times21:55
de-facto-tomaw/Wallops- Apparently removing 20k bans all at once hurts more than you might think. Stuff'll settle in the next few minutes. Sorry for the noise!21:55
de-factoapparently they are fiddling with the network21:55
* de-facto bumps Brainstorm21:56
* Brainstorm starts to fry de-facto with some grungy hereditary cerebellar ataxia 21:56
de-factolol whut21:56
de-facto.title https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-it-has-shipped-variant-specific-vaccine21:56
Brainstormde-facto: From investors.modernatx.com: Moderna Announces it has Shipped Variant-Specific Vaccine Candidate, mRNA-1273.351, to NIH for Clinical Study | Moderna, Inc.21:56
de-factothere you go Brainstorm, there you go!21:56
LjLde-facto, it's probably related to the spam the network had been getting the past couple of days. anyway those look like press releases i should add to the page, but i gotta have dinner so i'll do it later. what i really hope (but won't know without some leak...) is that the EU contracts with manufacturers, at least the more recent one, do include a clause that we'll only accept vaccines that are effective on the variants du jour. but while i know that the22:06
LjLEU wanted to do that, i have no idea if manufacturers could accept that deal...22:06
de-factooh that is very good to know22:08
de-factoactually that was my first question when reading about those22:08
de-factomaybe EU deals are not so bad after all!22:08
de-factobtw enjoy your meal :)22:08
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Moderna Announces Additional Capital Investments to Increase Global Manufacturing Capacity for COVID-19 Vaccine (81 votes) | https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-additional-capital-investments-increase-global/ | https://redd.it/lrozo722:12
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Convocazione del Consiglio dei Ministri n. 4 ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/convocazione-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-4/16327 )22:35
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Consiglio dei Ministri n. 4 ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/consiglio-dei-ministri-n-4/16329 )22:35
LjL[22:40]  Brainstorm: New from EuroNews: Vaccine certificates could be available within three months, says EU chief: European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen said after a virtual meeting of EU leaders that vaccination certificates could be ready to use in three months time. → https://is.gd/VQ16b022:54
BrainstormNew from ScienceNews: COVID-19 vaccines may be ready for teens this summer: Vaccinating children against COVID-19 is a crucial step towards reaching herd immunity and returning to pre-pandemic life. → https://is.gd/l4mcqu23:11
BrainstormUpdates for N. Cyprus: +1042 cases (now 3297), +9 deaths (now 23) since 22 days ago — Germany: +7178 cases (now 2.4 million), +394 deaths (now 69647) since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +4820 cases (now 1.1 million) since 23 hours ago — Switzerland: +12 deaths (now 9954) since 23 hours ago23:26
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Queen says Covid vaccine 'didn't hurt at all' → https://is.gd/BJ36UF23:35
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Association between antidepressant use and reduced risk of intubation or death in hospitalized patients with COVID-19: results from an observational study (81 votes) | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-021-01021-4 | https://redd.it/lsg2ba23:37

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