libera/##covid-19/ Sunday, 2021-03-07

spreadthisinfo[mHello world!00:20
spreadthisinfo[mCheck out the Corman-Drosten review if you haven't already!00:23
spreadthisinfo[mhttps://cormandrostenreview.com/report/00:23
finely[m]<rmonten[m] "finely: right this is the time t"> Right, the time to do this was a year ago. There would have been lobbying behind the scenes to make sure it didn't happen though.00:40
LjLspreadthisinfo[m, we are not the kind of room00:49
LjLif you're going to introduce information that most consider pseudoscientific, at least don't let that be your punch-in line when you join00:50
LjLor for that matter, pseudoscientific or not, i'd say joining mostly to post a link tends to be a bad signal for what follows00:50
* ryouma joined mostly to post a link a day or two ago00:51
* LjL bans ryouma00:52
ryoumadoes that surfaces paper suggest we are ok after 2h on all surfaces?00:53
spreadthisinfo[m<LjL "spreadthis.info, we are not the "> Not what kind of room? The kind of room that shares reviews of important papers that were used as guidelines for PCR assays?00:54
spreadthisinfo[m<LjL "or for that matter, pseudoscient"> Does this mean that you think it's acceptable to be running RT-PCR assays for 40-50 cycles to detect "SARS-CoV-2"?00:55
LjLoh come on, even your nickname clearly says that you are here with an agenda. it's not the room for agendas. also that "review" is crap, the organization it purports to be basically only exists on that website, and it's lunacy00:56
LjLyes00:56
LjLfeel free to find a room more in line with your conspiracy tastes00:56
LjLor if someone here wants to argue with you for an hour on the tiring specifics, i'll probably let them, until ubLIX[m] comes along and doesn't00:57
spreadthisinfo[m<LjL "oh come on, even your nickname c"> To spread info that has been subject to abject censorship, yes... I believe free speech and open debate is important. Much of the scientific and medical community is being silenced at the moment. Have you personally taken a look at their critiques with the Corman-Drosten paper? They found 11 critical errors and that they deliver 97% false-positive rate when going over 3300:57
spreadthisinfo[mcycles.00:57
LjLspreadthisinfo[m, you are misrepresenting that information. what it actually says about that is00:58
LjL"In case of virus detection, >35 cycles only detects signals which do not correlate with infectious virus as determined by isolation in cell culture [reviewed in 2]; if someone is tested by PCR as positive when a threshold of 35 cycles or higher is used (as is the case in most laboratories in Europe & the US), the probability that said person is actually infected is less than 3%, the probability that said result is a false positive is 97%"00:58
LjLwhen viral RNA is detected, that's a true positive, not a false positive00:58
LjLthe test doesn't purport to identify *live* virus, and pretty much everyone in this channel knows that00:59
spreadthisinfo[mThe PCR is only capable of testing for around 1-3% of the RNA of the virus, not the entire genome.00:59
LjLhowever, unless the sample has been contaminated, the test will not turn out positive unless you have SARS-COV-2 RNA in your system00:59
spreadthisinfo[mLet's try to remember that I only speak for myself and you only speak for yourself.01:00
spreadthisinfo[mThis is a visual example of a PCR assay ran for 43 cycles and what it does to just ONE RNA Fragment01:00
LjLyes, now you're moving to a different argument already, but fine. PCR tests for this virus usually "tap" multiple parts of the RNA, very specific ones; for example one of the tests used in the UK has been useful for distinguishing the so-called UK variant because one of the three sequences it uses is no longer matched by it01:00
BrainstormNew from NPR: Biden Praises Senate Passage Of 'Desperately Needed' COVID-19 Relief Bill: In remarks after a divided Senate approved his $1.9 trillion coronavirus relief package, Biden credited dogged lawmakers and widespread public support with getting it across the finish line. → https://is.gd/B4GqcF01:00
* spreadthisinfo[m uploaded an image: RT-PCR ASSAY VISUAL DEMONSTRATION.gif (2005KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/YwJcKHEDwQfeACjiVVGPaQgX/RT-PCR ASSAY VISUAL DEMONSTRATION.gif >01:01
spreadthisinfo[mI didn't move goalpost... That's one of the critques in the Corman-Drosten review.01:01
LjLdon't post images.01:01
spreadthisinfo[mIt should be an animated gif... Why not though? Don't post infographics?01:02
LjLnot inline please.01:02
LjLyou can link to them and their sources. this is mainly an IRC channel, and the bridge doesn't play very nicely with inline images.01:03
spreadthisinfo[mhttps://cutt.ly/cv19-test-pcr-visual-demo-rna-replication01:03
LjLis this thing seriously making me watch a geometric progression on a calculator01:04
* spreadthisinfo[m sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/zTeemGribBDtjwvrierBanWx/message.txt >01:05
LjLa proper PCR test doesn't just test the E gene01:06
LjLalso this is not Reddit, it's a chat, i know you're on the Matrix side, but please stick to things that one could state in a chat. on IRC that long message with newlines becomes an annoying link to click on.01:07
spreadthisinfo[m<LjL "is this thing seriously making m"> It gives you an idea about how ONE RNA fragment can turn to eight trillion fragments.01:07
LjL"A high CT value (e.g. > 35) as a result in E-gene RT-PCR could be due to E-gene positive control contamination of reagents. All positive results should therefore be confirmed by a second gene target."  https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/all-topics-z/coronavirus/threats-and-outbreaks/covid-19/laboratory-support/questions01:08
LjLspreadthisinfo[m, yes, that's how amplification works in RT-PCR01:08
spreadthisinfo[m<LjL "also this is not Reddit, it's a "> I'm not sure how to determine what is and isn't annoying. I though this was all "matrix". Idk, this is my first day on matrix. Sorry...01:08
LjLif you think people here don't know that and you need to show such a ridiculous ELI5 thing, then i suggest you spend a couple of days here without spouting out links and stuff but isntead listening to what others say01:09
LjLthat's generally the best way to introduce oneself to a new room01:09
LjLMatrix has a bridge with other types of network. this is both a Matrix room and an IRC channel (IRC being another chat system), but mainly an IRC channel.01:09
LjLnow if you don't mind i'm going to read the study ryouma referred to which seemed like it might be interesting01:10
spreadthisinfo[mWhat do you guys think about the inventor of PCR technology saying himself that they lack the capacity to be used to diagnose people as being contagious with a viral infection?01:11
spreadthisinfo[m * What do you think about the inventor of PCR technology saying himself that they lack the capacity to be used to diagnose people as being contagious with a viral infection?01:12
ubLIX[m]first day on matrix, huh?01:12
ubLIX[m]we'll see01:12
LjLryouma, that paper looks surprisingly short for something that should settle such a big unknown... the entire paper is almost as long as a typical abstract!01:14
LjLryouma, anyway, they claim infectious virus is not found after 120 minutes on cloth or plastic. they suggest on ceramic, metal and wood (in this order) the virus may stay infectious longer, up to 6 hours, "but probably not"01:15
LjLryouma, the one limitation they list to their study is that they put the virus there on materials with a generic fluid, which they say may not match what you'd find in an actual person's fluid containing virus ending up on surfaces01:16
LjLspreadthisinfo[m, i would say that's a very correct statement. a PCR test doesn't determine that you're infectious, but only that you've been infected (and we could add "somewhat recently", but viral RNA has been found for a long time in some people, and in feces)01:17
LjL"being contagious" is something that can only be determined very trickily by culturing cells on a high BSL lab01:17
LjLin fact, what's usually determined there is whether *virus* is infectious, not whether a *person* is contagious, as the latter is practically unfeasible.01:18
spreadthisinfo[mTechnically just that you have a trace of a fragment of an RNA sequence.01:18
LjLthe study i was commenting about to ryouma is an example of determining whether the virus is infectious in a lab. it uses a culture of cells with ACE2 receptors01:18
LjLno, technically thatyou have three traces of three fragments known to be characterizing of SARS-COV-201:19
LjLunless it's a flawed test (i wouldn't be surprised if some tests did only two, there are admittedly so many tests on the market, ugh)01:19
LjLbut that's another argument, really. you can't invalidate "the" PCR test for SARS-COV-2 because there isn't one test. there are many, differently characterized. they all work similarly, but they don't all just look at the same one bit of RNA.01:20
spreadthisinfo[mHave you seen that unused, freshly opened tests swabs have returned positives? Coca-cola, motor-oil, sewage, and various fruits, etc.?01:20
de-facto.title https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/tests-per-confirmed-case-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&time=earliest..latest&country=~AUS  <-- Australia needs currently ~6160 PCR tests to find one infected case01:21
Brainstormde-facto: From ourworldindata.org: Tests conducted per new confirmed case of COVID-19 - Our World in Data01:21
ryoumai sort of find it extraordinary how little solid knowledge there seems to be in general on what an ordinary citizen would want to know about any scientific subject.  as if there were just almost no solid and repllicated studies on such.01:21
ryoumai mean mostly medicine01:23
de-factoPCR tests primers are specific enough to even find characteristic sequences of variants of SARS-CoV-201:23
spreadthisinfo[mPCR test primers include sequences that are found endogenously.01:24
spreadthisinfo[mhttps://cutt.ly/cv19-pcr-primer-sequence-human-dna01:24
de-factocurrently they do full genome samples for some small randomly choosen part of positive PCR tests to monitor evolution of variants of concern (and detect emergence of new variants)01:24
de-factoif something would not work it would be corrected, its a very well established diagnostic method for decades worldwide01:25
LjLanyway, i too have a bit of a problem with what you call censorship. example: this comment here https://old.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusUK/comments/k6hfcs/external_peer_review_of_the_rtpcr_test_to_detect/gekznre/ provides a number of Twitter links to establish what sort of rhetoric the people behind this "review report" use. however... i can only *infer* what it might be, because almost all of the tweets are gone. *puff*. presumably removed by Twitter because01:25
LjLthey're utter bollocks, and i honestly suspect they *were* utter bollocks, but now what use are those retweets with comments clarifying the technology?01:25
ryoumaspreadthisinfo[m: i think it would maybe be illuminating if instead of saying a, b, which lead to conclusion z (the info you want to spread), you just say z01:26
LjLwe basically have material that could be educational, and instead it's half-deleted. that's not great.01:26
* spreadthisinfo[m sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/HqTuyrtDyHHsvNCtPZcEWrbY/message.txt >01:28
BrainstormUpdates for France: +23592 cases (now 3.9 million) since 23 hours ago01:28
ryoumaare these long messages linkified on the matrix end?01:28
ryoumadon't feel like clikcing01:29
spreadthisinfo[mThey are links to videos01:29
spreadthisinfo[mRoxytube is a YouTube alternative01:29
ryoumaok, only interested in text01:29
spreadthisinfo[mThe first one is a video of italian scientist doing an experiment using the tests primarily being used in their area and it will be used as evidence in court for a lawsuit they have put together.01:30
spreadthisinfo[m * The first one is a video of Italian scientists doing an experiment using the tests primarily being used in their area and it will be used as evidence in court for a lawsuit they have put together.01:30
LjLryouma, no, Matrix allows sending arbitrary-length messages, including newlines, and the IRC bridge handles them like so01:31
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Chile donates 20,000 doses of Sinovac coronavirus vaccine to Ecuador → https://is.gd/S4kX8k01:31
LjLubLIX, why hello01:32
ubLIX[m]oh hai01:32
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Coronavirus: Paraguay president asks ministers to resign → https://is.gd/Tgaggn01:52
LjLone of the ycombinator comments says that one of the 'review' authors claimed elsewhere that "mRNA vaccines can alter your DNA". i've seen this claim before, so i thought okay, let's see what they even claim the mechanism is, because i think i roughly know what DNA is and what mRNA is and i don't see how it could do this02:15
LjLbut if i google "mRNA vaccines can alter your DNA" i only find an endless list of refutations of the claim, by the CDC and very numerous other authoritative entities02:15
LjLis it really fine that google's algorithm works in a way that doesn't let me find what the original claim actually is? that the tweets involved disappear, etc?02:16
LjLif i could know what the claim is, i could also figure out why it's entirely bonkers02:16
LjLbut instead if only see reassurances that "no, it doesn't happen" that don't get into why it purportedly would ever happen to begin with02:17
LjLi am not at ease with this new working of (social, and other) media02:17
the-westry duckduckgo02:17
ryoumaagreed.  debunkers need to follow higher standards than debunkees.02:17
the-wesalso, the results you're seeing could also reasonably be caused by an absence of an actual original claim02:17
LjLthe refutations only say things i already know, i.e. describe DNA and mRNA. i want to read something i don't already know.02:17
LjLthe-wes, i suppose, but i doubt that to be the case02:18
LjLand if it is... well, why?02:18
LjLwhy are so many organizations so intent in letting me know that mRNA vaccines do NOT alter my DNA?02:18
LjLdo you see how this could backfire02:18
the-wesI see how it could backfire for the overly skeptical crowd02:19
the-wesI see moreso why they go out of their way to insist on the fact (to encourage higher vaccination rates)02:19
ryoumai need to know the taxonomy of overly skeptical crowd02:19
LjLokay, now i am labeled "overly skeptical" i suppose i can find new overly skeptical friends to hang out with02:20
ryoumawell, i would be mildly vaguely curious02:20
LjLanyway, that myth debunkers should clearly state what the myth *is*, in detail, seems like a minimum requirement to me02:20
LjLif that makes me a strange person so be it02:21
the-wesI was trying to avoid using the p word, to be nice. I see how that backfired ;)02:21
the-weshttps://www.newsweek.com/covid-coronavirus-mrna-vaccines-human-dna-conspiracy-theory-fact-check-1558962 - did you see this one?02:21
ryoumawhat do the mrna vaccines do?  create the epitopes?02:22
ryoumaand why do they do that instead of just injecting the epitopes?02:22
ryoumastorage?02:22
the-wesalso https://www.facebook.com/Virusplainer/posts/17025302812428802:24
LjLthe-wes, wouldn't be much different, call me paranoid which has a negative connotation, call me "overly skeptical" where skeptical is generally positive but the statement was clearly meant to be negative, luckily i can still read english02:24
ryoumathere is some site for debunking climate change stuff that has some claims about rhetoric02:24
LjLi will look at the newsweek thing02:24
LjLryouma, i can't answer that but Novavax injects the protein directly02:24
LjLthere may be different challenges involved in producing the protein vs producing the mRNA for it02:25
ubLIXLjL: https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-viral-post-idUSKBN28S2V1"02:25
ubLIXie, the facebook links it offers02:25
ryoumacan't seem to find it02:26
ryoumabut beware that claiming a population is pseudoscientific or anti-science when it is not is also something that propagandists have done02:27
ryoumauk smc being one02:27
LjLubLIX, that's a lot of why's02:27
LjLmeanwhile i found this "article" making the claim: https://humansarefree.com/2020/12/experts-warn-mrna-vaccines-may-cause-irreversible-dna-damage.html02:28
LjLbut i must be *cough* missing something02:28
ubLIXidk. i don't have a fb account and it won't let me proceed without one02:28
LjL(i found it using DuckDuckGo, thanks the-wes! ;P)02:28
LjLubLIX, that's the other article (i don't either), this one is accessible without an account02:28
LjLbut anyway it's a lot of incoherent stuff so far as i can tell for now02:28
LjLbut the one i linked is interesting, in a way, i think02:28
LjLin that it makes the headline claim: "experts" warn mRNA vaccines could damage your DNA02:29
ubLIXfacebook should probably be compelled by law to make all posts hosted by them publicly and anonymously searchable02:29
LjLthen it goes on to say scary things on how mRNA hijacks your cells to produce stuff02:29
LjLit says that they could be hijacked to do bad stuff to your body (which is true, if you produced an mRNA "vaccine" that actually strives to hurt you, you certainly could do that)02:29
LjLand then, here and there, it interjects the thing about your DNA being changed02:29
ryoumaoh it's the mrna ones that have wstorage issues...02:30
LjLit never makes a direct connection between all the "realistic" claims about mRNA and the clai that your DNA, your genome, is changed02:30
LjLryouma, yes although Pfizer found a while ago that you can actually store them in normal-ish freezers, for a while at least, no need for -70°C02:30
ryoumayou could make mrna produce integrase or reverse transcriptase or something perhaps but that would presumably not occur by accident02:31
LjLubLIX, the facebook post you can probably read is the first one linked on reuters, although it claims it's the same as others, i.e. https://www.facebook.com/joaocarllo/posts/383733289295817202:31
ubLIX"you must log in to continue"02:32
LjLubLIX, oooor maybe just have JS enabled? :P i don't need to login, i do get a big login box but i can click "Not now"02:32
LjLubLIX, i can pastebin it for you if you want but it's honestly not very worth it02:33
LjLone of its "whys": Why is it that 96% of people testing positive are mask wearers?02:33
ryoumawell the same site says https://humansarefree.com/2021/03/anti-human-agenda-is-the-core-of-the-new-world-order.html02:33
ubLIXs'fine. i'll struggle on somehow without it02:33
ryoumathe hypothesis that there is really no specific claim could ber correct02:33
LjLbut then it goes "Why is it bacterial pneumonia is on the rise because of mask wearing? Yet it's kept hush hush." so it makes you connect the dots02:33
ryoumait does not sound too sophisticated a form of propaganda02:34
ryoumaidk why they go on about it though02:35
LjLryouma, yes, it could be, and it seems to be based on that article (not the NWO one you linked, just the one about mRNA changing DNA), but it's interesting the *method*: they say some complicated and slightly scary things about hijacking cell machinery (not really complicated, but complicated for most people), and then they periodically interject the "change your DNA" line02:35
ryoumathat could be just the what is the word for it attempt to create alarm without any real substance.  creating alarm could be useful for selling ads on a youtube channel, for a state actor like russia, for "fun trolling", or for confused discontented folk.02:36
ryoumaidk though02:37
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +8251 cases (now 2.5 million), +173 deaths (now 72470) since 21 hours ago02:37
LjL"Why is it that the 'Great Reset' is being openly advertised yet people still deny it?" ← recently read an article about it, couldn't understand whether it had merit because i understand nothing of finance, but towards the end, i understand it was clearly a right-wing writer, at minimum, since after saying things that actually do worry me (like the EU trying to get rid of cash, which i don't like) he ended up saying nonsense like money will only b02:37
LjLe allowed to be given to socialist parties or somesuch02:37
ryoumanever heard of a reset.  a reset of what?02:38
ryoumathe question i have is why did mikovits go insane02:38
ryoumapretty much the only one02:38
LjLryouma, a reset of how finance and economy works, i understand... and i acknowledge that's vague, but i really don't understand this stuff any better02:41
ryoumai remember there was hysteria about a plan to create an amero analogous to the euro02:41
ryoumaa long time ago02:41
LjLthat facebook nonsense claims it's being openly advertized, i guess it refers to02:41
LjL%wik Great Reset02:41
BrainstormLjL, from English Wikipedia: The Great Reset is the name of the 50th annual meeting of the World Economic Forum (WEF), held in June 2020. It brought together high-profile business and political leaders, convened by the Prince of Wales and the WEF, with the theme of rebuilding society and the economy in what is claimed to be a more [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Reset02:41
LjLanyway02:42
ryoumathe prince of wales?  huh.02:42
LjLryouma, a kind of sponsorship i guess02:42
LjLanyway i take it back somewhat that the facebook post is utterly uninteresting. it has a point i shockingly agree with02:42
LjLubLIX, ryouma: this part https://paste.ee/p/aTQg6 kinda resonates with me, especially since i wrote this comment https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/ly1t6k/covid19_vaccine_confidence_grows_as_side_effect/gpqdfrb/?context=3 (and some subsequent ones). you can see the comment was upvoted fairly much, but the main rebuttal was upvoted about twice as much. yet... is it really so hard to see what i was saying? am i again "overly skeptical", the-wes,02:45
LjLwhen i say that it's utterly reasonable to expect many people to be somewhat wary, initially, of a vaccine developed in less than a year on a platform that had never been used on humans before... and then, slowly, they see that nothing bad happens with it, and their worries diminish?02:45
LjLbut instead, no, exactly what the bonkers facebook post says happens: you're either a reasonable person who wants the vaccine, or else it's "rampant fucking stupidity"; and then we get distressed people joining this channel saying they can't talk to any of their relatives anymore. awful polarization.02:46
LjLand all the comments below mine look at minute details such as that mRNA technology is not new. which it isn't, so what? this vaccine is new, and it's definitely new to most people, and it's been portrayed as very new.02:47
LjLsomeone tells me02:47
LjL"MRNA has been around since the 1980s. The vaccines were rushed but they were also based on the same concept upon which all vaccines are based except people moved their asses in a crisis which we should all be thankful for."02:47
LjLthis is all... very untrue?02:47
ryoumawhy is this going off the edge of my scren without w3m filling it grr02:48
LjLryouma, what, reddit?02:48
LjLoh the paste probably?02:48
LjLryouma, just get the raw text version https://paste.ee/r/aTQg6/002:49
ryoumathe anti anti vax thing has been around a long time.  certainly since wakefield became political.02:49
LjLwhat's wakefield?02:50
ryoumaas i said, debunkers need to hold themselves to higher standards.  they can themselves be peddling pseudoscience at times.02:50
LjLbut aside from specific debunkers, i think this represents what's happening in wider society02:50
the-weswakefield is the "vaccines cause autism" guy02:50
LjLa LOT of yelling from sides that are becoming a lot more polarized than it makes any sense for them to be02:51
LjLah02:51
LjLi basically feel i have little space to say "vaccines are good in general but they should be tested throughly and it's definitely possible they can cause adverse effects and not impossible some really serious ones don't get caught during the trials"02:52
LjLanti-vaccine people are going to hate me, and "pro"-vaccine people are going to hate me too02:53
ryoumathe inability to say things that are not aligned with dogma or talking poitns is a more general problem02:53
LjLit feels like making moderate statements has become an extreme thing to do02:53
ketaskaren02:53
LjLwhat02:53
ryoumanever mind02:54
LjLi might mind02:54
* ketas found out that LjL is actually karen02:54
ryoumawell it is stressful enough for me fwiw02:54
ketas:/02:54
LjLketas, explain yourself02:55
the-wesLjL does not fit the description of what I have seen labeled karen02:55
ryoumait is just some social media meme02:55
ketashe replied "what" :P02:55
LjLsurely it means something02:55
the-wesok, you're joking. good02:55
LjLi've seen it before. i have not bothered to dig deep into what it means because, partly i guess, i have not been called it before.02:56
the-westhe type of person who complains about small things and demands to "speak to the manager" has come to be labeled a "karen"02:56
ryoumaassociated with demogrtaphic politics i think02:56
LjLthe-wes, i'm seeing descriptions on the web that sort of differ from that02:57
LjLmight it be a very culturally-US thing?02:57
LjLor i just don't get it02:57
ryoumai think the probloems of vaccine polarization and mischaract3erization and so on predate the problems of social media and such being out of control to the degree they are, and possibly social media by narrow definition itself02:57
the-wesit is definitely a very culturally US thing02:57
LjL"Karen refuses to wear a face mask for her 5 minute trip to the supermarket during a pandemic. She harasses the workers, asks to see the manager and threatens to sue."02:57
LjL(from Urban Dictionary, i guess recently posted)02:58
ryoumai am told that the politics of the anglosphere on the internet are us politics.  idk though.  i never go on social media for exaple.  i ahve to avoid politics.02:58
LjLi bitch at people who *don't* wear masks02:58
LjLor well, i bitch silently, to myself02:58
LjLhalf hoping they hear me and half not02:58
LjLi also throw tantrums every time i go out and start seeing a ton of people who do wear a mask but only on their mouth02:59
LjLryouma, well it may have been an "early warning" sign of other nonsensical things that were starting to happen03:00
LjLthe vaccine polarization03:00
ryoumawell for me it is more that i suspect that propagandists of various types have figured out the internet03:01
ryoumai.e. they leveled up in ability to change society using the internet03:01
the-wesnew propagandists have grown up with the internet03:01
ryoumabut what do i know.  maybe there is a real world driver that has nothing to do with that.03:01
ryoumait feels like we are entering an age of mankind i despise03:02
ryoumaand not the one i hoped the internet would usher in03:02
LjL<ryouma> it feels like we are entering an age of mankind i despise03:03
LjLi just have to quote this03:03
the-wesheh. they used to say that people were stupid due to lack of access to information. then the internet came along and now they say "it was definitely not due to lack of information!"03:03
LjLthe-wes, "stupid" is ill-defined, but i'd say if you consider things historically... in developed countries, the *vast* majority of people can read and write (albeit usually with grammar that triggers me), and that's a long way from the way it used to be03:05
ryoumawell if i said something somebody just had to quote i'd better quit while i am ahead03:06
the-wesI agree, despite the problems we face today with misinformation running wild, by any rational measurement, humanity is in a better condition today than at any time in written history03:06
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Causes of death and comorbidities in hospitalized patients with COVID-19 (82 votes) | https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82862-5 | https://redd.it/lyxfma03:07
LjLfor some reason i'm so damn tired of reading the word "comorbidities"03:10
ryoumait is a poorly defined word03:13
ryoumawhich is a real problem03:13
ryoumathre are many definitions03:13
LjL"high blood pressure" can be a lot of things, of widely varying degrees of severity03:13
LjL(for instance)03:13
LjLkevin-oculus, how's it going?03:14
ketaswhat happened with all good karens, that's entire female name just ruined by one meme03:18
ketas:(03:18
LjLmaybe it's not karens that are bad, but memes03:19
the-wesnot the first time, certainly won't be the last time03:20
the-westhough perhaps the most notable example of it happening03:20
LjL%wik Karen (pejorative)03:20
BrainstormLjL, from English Wikipedia: Karen is a pejorative term for a woman seeming to be entitled or demanding beyond the scope of what is normal. The term also refers to memes depicting white women who use their privilege to demand their own way. Depictions also may include demanding to "speak to the manager", being racist or sporting a [... want %more?] → https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_(pejorative)03:21
LjLit's on Wikipedia so at least it has to be notable03:21
LjLthe article is long and intricate and kinda gives an impression of a really big debate on whether this term "karen" is acceptable or not, sexist or not, applicable or not, etc03:27
LjLin many things, as i said, i see extremes with the middle ground drying up. in some cases i see extremes created out of just thin air.03:27
LjLcreate a controversial term, so you can have a controversy about it03:28
LjLand now i'm attempting to create a meta-controversy, but i'm safe because i'm failing03:28
* ubLIX advances a new meme, the ketas; one who invokes mystifyingly disconnected memes03:29
LjLubLIX, you've gotta understand, those latvians or lithuanians (not sure which, but there isn't a difference) only get a partial understanding of US culture03:30
ketasi always say disconnected stuff03:30
LjLketas, can't be, i see it on my connection03:30
ketas:P03:30
ryoumalatwhaa?03:31
ketasyea, us culture comes from hollywood movies03:31
ketas:P03:31
ryoumawhat does the baltic or wherever that is have to do with this?03:31
ketasi live in it maybe03:31
LjL03:32
LjLi made a failed attempt at trolling03:32
ketasbit more up from latvia though03:32
ketasthere on top of baltics03:32
ryoumaoh i got it right03:33
LjLketas, wait you're estonian? i don't generally confuse *that* one with the two L's!03:33
ketasYES?!03:33
LjLbut then again, your hostname does say .ee03:33
BrainstormNew from Baric Lab: @Baric_Lab: Taking #covid19 #antivirals from bench to bedside @UNCpublichealth @UNC_SOM @UNCResearch >@uncglobalhealth → https://is.gd/kXxNU103:33
LjLi think the vaccine makers must have implanted a false memory in me of you being latvonian03:34
ketasi wonder if people living in bigger countries generally don't have much interest in world around them?03:34
ketasor it depends03:34
LjLthere are just many countries and places03:34
ketason region, culture, etc03:34
LjLi am not overly interested in geography, but i am interested in other cultural things, like language03:34
ryoumathe us polity doesn not really care about the world i think03:34
LjLwhich is why i didn't think i could mix up L/L with EE03:34
LjLketas, for some time we had PSA sort of things on the metro TVs that described the Baltics as new EU members and mentioned a few highlights about them, clearly just to make people aware they existed and roughly where03:36
ryoumais kaliningrad to the e of them or w?03:36
LjLlike many, when i was in school studying geography, they technically didn't exist :P03:36
LjLryouma, southwest03:36
ryoumawhat is it like in kaliningrad?  i guess like alaska is to the us?  i mean being an enclave.  it is influenced not much by neighbotr?03:37
ryoumaexclave*03:37
LjLi have no real idea, but i suspect its borders are kinda closed to its neighbors03:37
ryoumais it like cuba with nukes?03:38
ketasi was about to say that03:38
ketasrussia likes to keep nukes there for fun03:38
LjLthey have nukes there?03:38
LjLscaree03:38
ryoumais russia a developed country?  dumb q, i would get shot irl, but it has been wsaid 3rd worlod country with 1st 2world army or so.03:39
LjLketas, did you have the government distributing leaflets on what to do in case Russia declares war, or was that some other Baltics?03:39
ryoumaat least during cold war03:39
ketasfunny how russia could be best country in the world, but it isn't03:40
LjLryouma, during the cold war, the *term* 2nd world was created for Russia and its sphere of influence... with 3rd being for the ones that fell in neither sphere03:40
ryoumawould war ever be /declared/03:40
LjLsince then the meanings have shifted03:40
ketasLjL: i don't think we had those leaflets03:40
ryoumatrue but still03:40
LjLryouma, well i don't know how to answer that objectively (i probably also don't know the answer). while discussing economies for some reason, maybe G7, someone reminded me that Italy has a bigger economy than Russia03:41
ryouma"The Fourth World is an extension of the three-world model, used variably to refer toSub-populations socially excluded from global society, such as uncontacted peoples; Hunter-gatherer, nomadic, pastoral, and some subsistence farming peoples living beyond the modern industrial norm. "03:41
LjLwhich as an Italian is not really something that feels intuitive to me03:41
LjLryouma, good thing Bolsonaro is getting rid of most of those03:41
ketasis living simple a bad thing now?03:42
ketasfunny how we still have people on earth doing that03:43
LjLketas, i was being entirely sarcastic03:43
LjLwhat Brazil is doing is crimes against... humanity... the planet... everything03:43
ketaswhat?03:43
LjLi am clarifying that when i said "good thing Bolsonaro is getting rid of most of those", i do not really think it's a good thing at all03:44
LjLBrazil is being hit quite horrendously by COVID and the indigenous communities are being hit the hardest03:45
LjLBrazil had more than 70000 new cases today03:46
ryouma%cases usa03:46
LjLand it's not a record number03:46
ketasi had to google who bolsonaro is and what brazil is doing03:46
Brainstormryouma: In United States, there have been 29.3 million confirmed cases (8.9% of the population) and 530273 deaths (1.8% of cases) as of an hour ago. 368.0 million tests were performed (8.0% positive). Fatality can be broadly expected to lie between 2.0% (assuming prevalence as in tests) and less than 2.5% (considering only deaths and recoveries). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=United%20States for time series data.03:46
ketasapparently there are some conflicts there :/03:46
LjLketas, well, then you will tolerate my scant knowledge of the Baltics if you don't know about the problematic leader of a major country ;P03:47
LjLonly some03:47
ketasmight have known it if have read news lately03:47
LjLketas, i remember that during the Rio de Janeiro Olympics in 2016, two cops were shot (dead, i think?) basically because they had been sent to Rio but were unfamiliar with the city, so they drove to a "forbidden" zone i.e. somewhere inhabited by people who hate the public authority and have guns, and so all these people started shooting a rain of bullets into the police car03:48
LjLthat's the sort of cute little conflicts you get in Brazil sometimes03:49
ketasi remember few documentary movies about brazil03:49
LjLalso i shouldn't speak from a high horse given people in my country blew up a large section of a motorway just to kill a judge03:49
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Single-dose Oxford–AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine followed by a 12-week booster (81 votes) | https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00528-6/fulltext | https://redd.it/lzemo803:49
ketasabout those things03:49
LjLhow is it single-dose if it's followed by a booster? O.o03:50
LjLheadlines make no sense, even when they're legitimately scientific ones...03:50
ketasolympics sometimes drives attention to hosting country03:51
LjL"Supporting a longer-interval immunisation strategy, vaccine efficacy was significantly higher at 81·3% (60·3–91·2) after two standard doses given at an interval of 12 weeks or longer, compared with 55·1% (33·0–69·9) when given less than 6 weeks apart."03:51
ryoumarefuse to go to the lancet but perhaps the single dose version was tested with a booster too  makes sense to me.03:51
LjLde-facto, ↑03:51
LjLryouma, refusing to even go to a journal because they published things that irked you seems a bit extreme a position...03:51
ketaspeople started dying more here03:52
ketaslately :P03:52
ryoumayou mentioned crimes against humanity before.  i do not equate those with irk.03:52
LjL"A single standard dose had an efficacy against symptomatic COVID-19 in the first 90 days of 76·0% (59·3 to 85·9), yet provided no protection against asymptomatic infection (vaccine efficacy −17·2% [–248·6 to 60·6])."03:52
LjL-17% seems like a nice vaccine efficacy :D03:52
LjLprobably explained by people taking more risks after knowing they were vaccinated03:53
ryouma%cases arizona03:53
LjLalthough in theory there is a placebo arm, but i think a problem with vaccines can be that people who get the real vaccine feel expected side effects, and so it effectively unblinds the thing03:53
Brainstormryouma: In Arizona, United States, there have been 823384 confirmed cases (12.1% of the population) and 16269 deaths (2.0% of cases) as of 19 hours ago. 1.3 million tests were performed (62.6% positive). See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Arizona for time series data.03:53
ketasis it like driving faster with seatbelt on?03:53
LjLketas, actually yeah. humans seem to be very good at intuitively staying at the same level of risk regardless of precautions03:54
ryoumaoeraps they can puyt nf kappa b into the placebo or something03:54
LjLryouma, i can't fully parse that. but in one AZ trial, they used a meningitis vaccine instead of the placebo, as a control03:54
ketaswhy?03:54
ryoumaok03:54
LjLketas, well, presumably a good old known-safe vaccine but with some expected side effects, so that people getting it would not be able to tell whether they got the real COVID vaccine or not03:55
ketashmm03:55
LjLa control arm is often given a placebo, but a placebo should have the property of not being readily distinguishable from "the real thing", otherwise you mask the effects you want to show03:55
ketaswhy we need placebo anyway?03:56
ryouma"NF-κB is a protein complex that controls transcription of DNA, cytokine production and cell survival. NF-κB is found in almost all animal cell types and is involved in cellular responses to stimuli such as stress, cytokines, free radicals, heavy metals, ultraviolet irradiation, oxidized LDL, and bacterial or viral antigens."03:56
LjLketas, what sort of question is that? double-blind trials are essential to evidence-based medicine. you can't tell what the vaccine efficacy is unless you can compare a large group of people who got the vaccine against a similarly large, and similarly composed, people who *thought* they potentially got the vaccine03:56
ryoumayou need placebo to stop the effect that was just hypothesized where you think you got the real thing and change behavior thus kind of invalidating the results03:57
LjLryouma, what is that from?03:57
ryoumajust search engine.  wp it turns out.03:57
LjLokay03:57
ryoumanot too fond of wp either in some fields03:58
LjLketas, example: imagine you have two arms, you give the vaccine to one arm, and to the other arm, you say "i'll give y'all nothing". now the arm that got nothing will be very careful and wear masks and stuff, because they know they are not protected against COVID at all. the arm that got the vaccine will start taking risk, thinking they are protected. now the results you want to obtain about *actual* amount of protection the vaccine provides are all messed03:58
LjLup03:58
ketasdoes behaviour affect things that much here?03:59
LjLryouma, i don't know if i understand why you quoted that, though... is it related to the potential of mRNA to change DNA?03:59
LjLketas, yes03:59
ryoumai was just speculating on a placebo04:00
LjLketas, note that they found a -17% efficacy at preventing asymptomatic disease. if they had found 0% efficacy, well, that would just mean the vaccine isn't any good at preventing asymptomatic disease. but *negative* efficacy? you can't easily explain that, unless you say, people probably took more risks because they knew they were vaccinated04:00
ryoumathat it might or might not produce effects that could fool subjects04:00
ketasnot -172%=04:00
ketas?04:00
LjLketas, there is another paper that notes that risk of getting COVID goes *up* at some point during the first 12 days after getting the vaccine. during those 12 days, the vaccine offers no protection, because the antibodies are still forming. but why would it offer *negative* protection? again, the answer must be that people take more risks04:01
LjLketas, no i think it said -17.2%04:01
ketaswhere did the dot go04:02
ketas:P04:02
LjLmaybe i should write -17·2% as some papers do, to avoid the whole comma vs period issues04:02
ketasthere's something between all those numbers?04:03
ketas:)04:03
LjLketas, stop acting as a more drunk version of a Finn04:04
ketasso it's not "-172%"?04:04
LjLno!04:04
LjLthat would be... big04:04
ketasthat's what i saw :P04:05
LjL%u ·04:05
BrainstormU+00B7 MIDDLE DOT (·)04:05
ryoumai like ' for comma separation by thousands04:06
ryoumaindia has a really weird system04:06
ryoumato me04:06
ketasalso, if virus is a real thing, not affected by somebodys brain, why is behaviour so important04:06
ketasseems strange to me04:06
ryoumaketas: are you earnest here?04:06
ryoumain*04:06
ketashmm?04:07
ryoumanm04:07
ketas?04:10
BrainstormUpdates for Netherlands: +5032 cases (now 1.1 million), +37 deaths (now 15847) since 23 hours ago — United Kingdom: +6032 cases (now 4.2 million), +196 deaths (now 124457) since 23 hours ago04:10
LjLketas, i think i've explained why behavior is important04:11
LjLi don't know what else to say, unless you can address some of my points04:11
LjLclearly, if you don't leave your home at any time whatsoever and you live alone, chances you'll get COVID are very low04:12
LjLwhile if you take all possible risks, going to parties, shopping all days, etc, you're much more likely to get COVID04:12
LjLhow is this controversial?04:12
LjLand how would it be controversial that when you take two groups of people and *let them know* which one got the vaccine and which one didn't, they'll behave differently, resulting in very different rates of catching the virus, due to behavior and not just to the vaccine?04:13
CoronaBot/r/coronavirus: Senate passes $1.9 trillion Covid relief bill, including $1,400 stimulus checks, with no Republican support (10201 votes) | https://www.nbcnews.com/news/ncna1259795? | https://redd.it/lz6g2m04:13
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add Lancet &#34;comment&#34; about the efficacy numbers involved with AZ ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/4cc517083f27965278457d2c4b2dddca5bc3cde5 )04:13
ketasbut in the end, that doesn't affect vaccine?04:13
LjLwhat04:14
LjLit obviously affects the numbers you get from the TRIAL that you're making to EVALUATE the vaccine04:14
LjLyou're trying to determine if your vaccine is effective04:14
ketasmaybe04:14
LjLyou want, as much as possible, to have the vaccine be the *only* variable at play04:14
LjLnot maybe04:14
ketasbut that doesn't affect vaccine itself?04:14
ketasit either works or not04:15
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : Add Lancet "comment" about the efficacy numbers involved with AZ: I think this doesn't touch on "the low-dose + standard-dose cohort happened to be the ones who also got the second dose much later", and overall it's not an enlightening article, but I feel given the mess that AZ has turned out to be, anything [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/E8NkFk04:15
LjL...04:15
LjLthis is about the TRIALS that are meant to DETERMINE whether it works04:15
LjLif you fuck up the trials by telling people whether or not they're getting the real vaccine, you can't determine it04:15
LjLyou're starting to sound like you're utterly ignoring my explanations04:15
LjLand just repeating "but doesn't affect vaccine"04:15
ketasisn't it true?04:16
LjLbefore you run these trials, you don't KNOW if the vaccine is effective04:16
LjLit affects whether the vaccine will be used or not04:16
ketasmaybe you can't test it in any other ways04:16
LjLit affects whether it will receive authorizations04:16
LjLyes, well, this way has become a very firmly established scientific way of testing just about any drugs04:16
LjLfor reasons that i have explained04:16
ketasbehaviour affects possible exposure to virus04:16
ketasnot directly04:17
LjLyes04:17
LjLquite directly04:17
ketashow so?04:17
LjLi explained how so04:17
LjL<LjL> while if you take all possible risks, going to parties, shopping all days, etc, you're much more likely to get COVID04:17
LjLactual question: are you trolling me?04:18
ketasthat's indirectly04:18
LjLno04:18
LjLit's indirectly *getting* the virus04:18
LjLit's very directly *exposing* yourself to the virus04:18
LjLalso what is the point of this semantic nitpicking?04:18
LjLwhat don't you understand about the usefulness of double-blind trials?04:18
ketaswhat you want is similar average exposure to virus... by lying people you achiveve such thing i guess04:19
LjLdon't just say "but that doesn't affect the vaccine itself?" because that's a trick question that has no decent answer04:19
ketasoh they are useful04:19
LjLyes, you also want them to report similar side effects04:19
LjLthere is something called a nocebo effect, as well as a placebo effect04:19
LjLone goal of a phase 3 vaccine trial (or any drug trial) is to assess side effects04:19
LjLthe way you assess them is, does thing X happen more to people who got the vaccine than to people who didn't?04:20
LjLyou can't meaningfully know that if you *tell* people whether or not they've got the drug04:20
LjLbecause people who haven't got it will say "i feel fine" mostly because they know they just got some water04:20
LjLwhile the people who got the drug will report side effects, sometimes even if they aren't actually caused by the drugs, just because they'll be paying a lot more attention to how they feel04:20
ketasfunny things brains do04:21
LjLyes, medical trials definitely have to account for funny things brains do, and sometimes it ain't easy04:21
ketasyea psychosomatic effects are real04:22
ketasbut that wasn't what i meant04:22
ketasi wish there are better methods :P04:22
LjLwell, *not* having a control arm is by all means a worse method04:23
ketassadly or luckily humans are incapable or diverting biological processes just by thinking really hard about subject04:28
ketasand i never troll people04:30
BrainstormUpdates for New Zealand: +1 cases (now 2399) since 23 hours ago04:42
ryoumai think it is wrong to make statements about placebo that imply that there is a thing called the psyche that affects the body.  what has been discussed is reporting biases.  you're going to try to introspect and oh do i feel this effect?  well i /suppose maybe/ i do etc.  or please the investigator.  or whatever.  those affect reporting.  but (except for general effects like thinking about something stressful that a04:47
ryoumactivates cytokines and adrenaline) as you say: --- 20:28 <ketas> sadly or luckily humans are incapable or diverting biological processes just by thinking really hard about subject04:47
ryoumathere are no pathways that allow your thinking about something to make you sicker.  that would require many pathways.  and evolution does not produce that.  and if it did, it would get selected out.04:48
ketasi got results that stress levels MIGHT affect immune response04:48
ryouma(unless as noted you already are sick and the extra stress of thinking about the fact that a bully is going to be3at you uyp tomorrow could make you sicker)04:49
ryoumawell the nf kappa b thing i quoted is part of the immune system broadly and it said stress right there.  stress can be any type.  heat cold noise.04:50
ketastrue04:50
ryoumabut that is just not hte same thing as the mind body woo woo that has destroyed many populations.  you cannot fit a camel throuhg that needle.04:51
ketasimagine if you could just say fuck you virus04:51
ketas:)04:51
ryoumathe psyche that is claimed to exist in a scientifically strong sense and that is claimed to control the body in a scientifically stron sense (not reporting effects and stress in general and such) is an ontologically scientifically and logically broken concept that should be shot at dawn.04:55
ketaspeople believed it once04:56
ketaswhen they had no better explanation04:57
ryoumathere are those who believ it, if you can use that word, because it suits their purposes04:58
ryoumait is still being imposed04:58
* ketas pictures in comic book way how virus arrives on doorway and guard takes it and gives it a good kick into ass so it flies far away04:59
ryoumasome claim it started with the ancient greeks.  idk.  it merges in with divine possession, witchcraft, and more.04:59
ketassurely04:59
ryoumathere are many many today who believe in witchcraft.05:00
ketasa lightning strike is good example... what people thought what it is 2000 years ago and now05:00
ketasyea, they do05:01
ketasfunnily they really do05:01
ketaspeople have described how they feel05:01
ketasto me05:01
LjL<ketas> sadly or luckily humans are incapable or diverting biological processes just by thinking really hard about subject ← you seem to be entirely missing the point, but i give up05:03
ketasbut that's what i meant05:04
ketasactually05:04
ketasnot that i don't know how trials are conducted05:05
finely[m]<ryouma "i think it is wrong to make stat"> Yep, see:05:09
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Very generous of India and Indian government to be helping more than 47 countries fight COVID by supplying them with vaccines, while barely any other country is doing so. → https://is.gd/uoxz5005:16
ketasi wonder if even better understanding about human body could eliminate some of those hit or miss cases we use in medicine today05:17
ketasit's like trying to install new glass pane in dark room, definitely good chance to strike finger, dent frame or break glass05:23
BrainstormNew from This Week In Virology: TWiV 728: Cover your nose and mouse: TWiV notes the passing of Mavis Agbandje-McKenna, and reviews data on maximizing fit for cloth and medical procedure masks, SARS-CoV-2 total and subgenomic viral load in hospitalized patients, and effect of changes in spike protein on efficacy in a mouse model of infection. → https://is.gd/DKu4hz06:08
BrainstormUpdates for Belgium: +2799 cases (now 785809), +25 deaths (now 22240) since 23 hours ago06:15
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: South Korea, US scale back military drill over coronavirus → https://is.gd/Qxt0on06:39
BrainstormNew preprint: SARS-CoV-2 surveillance in Norway rats (Rattus norvergicus) from Antwerp sewer system, Belgium by Valeria Carolina Colombo et al, made available as preprint on 2021-03-06 at https://biorxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2021.03.06.433708 [... want %more?]06:53
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Covid: Dalai Lama urges others to get vaccinated as he receives first shot → https://is.gd/YTdE2X06:59
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: China Exports Soar To Highest Level In Decades After COVID-19 Hit → https://is.gd/A7MIPZ07:09
BrainstormUpdates for Atacama, Chile: +26470 cases (now 38801) since a day ago — Biobio, Chile: +763 cases (now 76496), +8 deaths (now 1323) since a day ago — Los Rios, Chile: +378 cases (now 20896) since a day ago — France: +11915 cases (now 3.9 million), +40 deaths (now 88478) since 9 hours ago08:51
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: From Sri Lanka to Seychelles: Destinations that have opened its doors for tourists amid Covid-19 → https://is.gd/jlcowS09:01
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | March 07, 2021: The World Health Organization maintains up-to-date and global information. Please refer to our Wiki for additional information. You can find answers to frequently asked questions about Covid-19 and vaccines in our FAQ . → https://is.gd/pYwzu609:11
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Canadian provinces looking to import vaccine tech knowhow from India → https://is.gd/7sVYXP10:33
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: North Macedonia Greenlights Use of Russia's Sputnik V Covid -19 Vaccine → https://is.gd/Meuwa712:05
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): CoronaVirus_ITALIA: Austria, Danimarca e Israele, accordo sui vaccini contro il Covid → https://is.gd/3xCglQ12:36
BrainstormUpdates for Germany: +7212 cases (now 2.5 million) since 20 hours ago13:01
needhelp2021Hi, I'm a new refugee and need a way to communicate my experience. Does anyone have a riseup invite?13:05
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Opinion: Don’t let bureaucracy constrict the supply of Covid-19 vaccines: The Biden administration must cut through the red-tape arguments and immediately revise the dosing schedule of the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines to allow for an extended second dosing interval… → https://is.gd/qDdoYL13:08
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Efficacy of Nitazoxanide in reducing the viral load in COVID-19 patients. Randomized, placebo-controlled, single-blinded, parallel group, pilot study. (80 votes) | https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.03.21252509v1 | https://redd.it/lyp7s213:59
pwr22LjL: eurgh, loads of news articles about "covidiots" where I live14:21
pwr22People in a free-for-all at the discounts counter in a supermarket14:21
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Pandemic Has Created a Generation of Schoolchildren More Interested in STEM Careers Than Ever, Poll Says → https://is.gd/qFXwTK15:22
BrainstormNew from Politico: Coronavirus: 16 EU countries opted against Moderna vaccine top-up: Hungarian government → https://is.gd/fQEJPA15:33
BrainstormNew from StatNews: STAT+: CytoDyn’s wild weekend of data-mining study results ends in failure for its Covid treatment: Results from a late-stage clinical trial showed CytoDyn's experimental antibody failed to improve the survival of patients hospitalized with severe, life-threatening cases of Covid-19. → https://is.gd/hNS5mG16:35
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): Sunday 07 March 2021 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/zfS3hQ17:17
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Over 200 Kids in Sweden Diagnosed with Long-term Covid-19 Symptoms with Some Being Bed-ridden → https://is.gd/k53yn417:48
LjLpwr22, well why are there such discount initiatives to begin with? i always find blame in sheeplike people, but in whoever organizes things as well, from the government to supermarket administration17:50
pwr22Yeah it's not a great idea17:54
pwr22It's just what's always been done here before covid and they haven't changed it17:54
pwr22The other week when the weather was good some shops had to stop selling alcohol at the request of the police17:55
pwr22Because everyone was partying at the harbourside17:55
pwr22So now there are fences to to try and stop that17:56
BrainstormNew from Politico: Coronavirus: German MP to quit, leave ruling party group amid face mask scandal → https://is.gd/8VbBHp17:58
BrainstormUpdates for Jamaica: +723 cases (now 26026), +7 deaths (now 453) since a day ago — United Kingdom: +3764 cases (now 4.2 million) since 22 hours ago — New Caledonia: +9 cases (now 67) since 9 days ago — Germany: +6989 cases (now 2.5 million) since 22 hours ago18:25
BrainstormNew from Politico: Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine batch suspended in Austria after death: Austria's health authority said there is currently 'no evidence of a causal relationship with the vaccination.' → https://is.gd/5Tcia918:28
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Russian intelligence agencies have mounted a campaign to undermine confidence in Pfizer Inc.’s and other Western vaccines, using online publications that in recent months have questioned the vaccines’ development and safety → https://is.gd/1OBSGt18:38
LjLApparently the scientists here in Italy are making a set of possible proposals including one where all of Italy would become a "red zone" (as per existing rules on covid region zoning), plus the worst-faring regions would go into full lockdown, like last spring, I.e. only essential jobs allowed18:41
CoronaBot/r/covid19: Vitamin D deficiency, secondary hyperparathyroidism and respiratory insufficiency in hospitalized patients with COVID-19 (81 votes) | https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33666876/ | https://redd.it/lzsjhk18:43
BrainstormUpdates for Italy: +207 deaths (now 99785) since 23 hours ago19:09
BrainstormNew from CDC (old): Cases in the U.S.: CDC COVID Data Tracker - Cases and Deaths by State → https://is.gd/yJtqEF19:40
BrainstormUpdates for Isle of Man: +81 cases (now 757) since a day ago20:11
BrainstormNew from Politico: Boris Johnson hopes for third time lucky as England’s schools reopen: British prime minister talks up a 'cautious' approach as England's schools reopen for what ministers hope will be the final time. → https://is.gd/Qf01Z920:52
Arsanerit3 days ago: Isle of Man: +35 cases (now 546); 2 days ago: Isle of Man: +59 cases (now 605); yesterday: Isle of Man: +71 cases (now 676); today: Isle of Man: +81 cases (now 757)21:14
ArsaneritIs this their first wave or what's going on there?21:14
LjLArsanerit, looks like their second wave21:23
LjLbut a veeeery steep one21:24
BrainstormUpdates for France: +22322 cases (now 3.9 million), +144 deaths (now 88582) since 22 hours ago21:32
de-factowell or the started some testing ramp up or such21:35
de-factoprobably both21:35
LjLwell i'm just comparing it with the first wave21:36
LjLwhich was also steep, for that matter21:36
LjLlike compared to big contries, it's very _|-21:36
LjLi guess that's expected from a very small country those, when they do control it, it's easier to control it to zero21:37
de-factoyeah might even be one big cluster traced through or such21:37
de-factofrom the times above thats all from one generation hence must have been a big spread somewhere21:38
CoronaBot/r/coronavirus: Covid Infections Fall Steeply in Nursing Homes Since Vaccine Rollout (10042 votes) | https://www.route-fifty.com/health-human-services/2021/03/covid-infections-fall-steeply-nursing-homes-vaccine-rollout/172404/ | https://redd.it/lzqb1121:38
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Mass testing, mask wearing help Detroit slow virus' pace: It was March 11 last year when Detroit Mayor Mike Duggan announced that the St. Patrick's Day parade was canceled because a virus that had already sickened tens of thousands worldwide had reached Michigan. → https://is.gd/DdSpjw22:13
LjL<Brainstorm> New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Wall Street Journal: Russian disinformation campaign is working to undermine confidence Covid-19 vaccines used in the US → https://is.gd/fTrJaU23:07
LjLand Brainstorm posted a similar headline earlier23:07
LjLwhat i wonder is, this mention Bell's palsy as one of the scaremongering factoids23:07
LjLbut i was worried about Bell's palsy myself, still am to some extent, with both Pfizer and Moderna23:07
LjLand 1) that was based on the study results and the FDA approval comments, not on some foreign-owned media23:07
LjL2) i'm definitely not a Russian agent, although i know that's what a Russian agent would say23:08
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Austria suspends AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine batch after death | 07MAR21 → https://is.gd/9jzUrm23:14
LjLwoah23:15
de-factostrange that does not make sense23:29
de-factoi mean Austria report there23:30
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Wall Street Journal: Russian disinformation campaign is working to undermine confidence Covid-19 vaccines used in the US → https://is.gd/S30cxE23:35
de-facto.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bLrTBYja0c "Corona-Selbsttests ab heute zu kaufen" https://www.aldi-sued.de/de/gemeinsamgehtalles.html https://www.lidl.de/de/corona-sars-cov-2-antigenschnelltest-boson/c30887 https://www.rossmann.de/de/corona-schnelltest23:41
Brainstormde-facto: From www.youtube.com: Corona-Selbsttests ab heute zu kaufen - YouTube23:41
de-factoso indeed we have antigen quicktests in the supermarkets in Germany now23:42
de-factobut very low numbers (i hear 11 test kits per Aldi)23:42
de-factoat least they started with that, i wonder about the effect23:42
de-factoseveral scenarios are thinkable: for sure more people will test themselves (e.g. when visiting relatives etc), so more asymptomatic cases will be found. 1) more infections will be found and citizens go for a PCR test to confirm their result (hence incidence of reported cases will rise) 2) citizens that normally would go for a PCR test (e.g. because of suspicion to have COVID or even symptoms) will go for an antigen-quicktest instead and23:45
de-factoisolate themselves (without telling official track and trace about their result), hence incidence of reported cases will fall23:45

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