libera/##covid-19/ Monday, 2021-03-22

de-factoToday (Monday 2021-03-22) Merkel will meet with the ministers for new deciding about new strategy, probably lockdown continues till 2021-04-18 at least00:08
de-factoi hope they not only will continue lockdown but also put more strict containment in place, since we already are above weekly incidence of 100/100k and much more importantly we are on R>100:09
LjL-Matrixnajari: not really, I think the evidence is still circumstantial, and if I "went with the flow" on these things, I would have been against masks when the WHO purportedly was, etc... I acknowledge that the prevailing idea now seems to be that airborne transmission matters by far the most, and I find it plausible, but the precautionary principle still tells me that if I can sanitize my hands after touching things others00:17
LjL-Matrixtouched and clean stuff that enters my home without much trouble, I should do it00:17
hirogenBreton rejects Sputnik, "the EU does not need it"00:24
hirogenThe European Commissioner: priority must be given to vaccines produced in the Old Continent. "Herd immunity in Europe by July 14th"00:24
LjLyes, i talked about that just earlier after it was posted on the italian subreddit00:26
LjLboth of those statements are lies, so maybe we should give priority to politicians who don't lie00:26
de-facto.title https://imgur.com/a/SJ0NoDO https://i.imgur.com/TYs7KQc.png "COVID-19 Germany: cases and reproduction" source: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Projekte_RKI/Nowcasting_Zahlen.xlsx?__blob=publicationFile00:26
Brainstormde-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19 Germany: cases and reproduction - Album on Imgur00:26
LjLbut i'm afraid there's even more scarcity of those than of vaccines00:26
de-factoso in Germany we have R ~ 1.2 and unfortunately it is rising itself, e.g. the reproduction (describing the time derivative of incidence as time derivative of total cases) ITSELF is rising00:29
de-factothat means we have a big problem, the increase in daily new cases is increasing itself00:29
de-factomeaning we currently not only have an increase in daily new infections (as with R = constant > 1, dR/dt ~ 0), we have this increase in daily new infections accelerating (e.g. R > 1 not constant dR/dt > 0)00:34
de-factowe never had a lockdown in Germany that was strict enough to contain this B.1.1.7 reproduction, if we achieved R~0.8 before it would mean we would have to expect R ~ 0.8*150% ~ 1.2 with the same containment measure strength now00:38
BrainstormNew from Reddit (test): nCoV: Just in: South Africa sells its supply of one million AstraZeneca vaccines | 21MAR21 → https://is.gd/tnIBGp00:39
de-factoit all depends on what they decide today, i am pretty sure it wont be enough to contain this though, so we will end up with a BIG 3rd wave and not enough vaccinations in the risk groups to prevent MANY fatalities.00:39
de-factoand even if we contain this, with allowing tourists to travel to Mallorca and party there, get infected with P.1 CoV-VoC there and import that back (without requiring ANY tests or quarantine on re-entering Germany or EU) we actively are promoting to breed the next problem, seeding a Mutant that may be as reproductive as the B.1.1.7 VoC but with the additional feature of immune escape.00:45
de-factowhy is that tolerated at all? sometimes one almost could get the impression that there would be intent behind causing the problems the most efficient way possible, just by doing exactly the opposite of what logic dictates to prevent a problem00:48
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: AstraZeneca is killing people. Another two dead in Norway after taking the vaccine and then getting blood clot in lungs. → https://is.gd/zrxaNn00:49
de-factoLjL can i write you in PM?00:56
LjLde-facto, sure01:00
LjLmeanwhile... that post on worldnews has already been removed due to obviously editorialized title, but01:01
LjL"Norway does not have millions of COVID19 deaths. Norway does not even have thousands of COVID19 deaths. Norway has a total of eight(8) COVID19 deaths among women aged 0-59.01:02
LjLhttps://www.fhi.no/en/id/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/daily-reports/daily-reports-COVID19/01:02
LjLNorway has only vaccinated 120,000 people with AZ, and they already have several deaths which appear to have been caused by side effects of the vaccine."01:02
LjLthis seems to kind of have a point01:02
LjL"The experts are all in agreement here – the reported events are likely background events not related to the vaccine, and in any case the benefits of getting vaccinated still vastly outweigh any potential risks. The countries who have suspended the vaccine should reverse course and resume vaccinating their people."01:27
LjLhttps://sciencebasedmedicine.org/oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-safety/01:27
LjLno, the experts are not in agreement, and also using the "likeliness" of them being background events to sneak in an "in any case" is a bit too subtle for my liking01:27
LjLeven the EMA has conceded that a link with the vaccine should still be investigated, and in the meanwhile, two separate teams in two different countries have claimed to have found a mechanism for the association01:28
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Millions expected to attend Hindu festival in northern India despite surge in COVID-19 cases → https://is.gd/L10beX01:30
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Vets warn of new Covid variant’s possible link to heart problems in pets → https://is.gd/CKZ58L02:11
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Japan considers testing all inbound travelers for coronavirus variants → https://is.gd/yLu8kN02:21
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Wuhan Institute of Virology researchers working on corona­viruses were hospitalised with symptoms consistent with COVID-19 in early November 2019 in what US officials suspect could have been the first cluster → https://is.gd/eKQA7b04:23
BrainstormNew from EurekAlert!: Major 'State of the Planet' report out in advance of first Nobel Prize Summit: Human actions are threatening the resilience and stability of Earth's biosphere - the wafer-thin veil around Earth where life thrives. This has profound implications for the development of civilizations, say an international group of researchers in a [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/R9TAgm05:25
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Scientists Discover Cause Of Blood Clots From AstraZeneca COVID-19 Vaccine → https://is.gd/5ZPXMN05:56
finely[m]<pwr22 "And the class is still running, "> That's terrible Peter. Depending on where you are, it may be better to accept the legal consequences for the moment to guard against the medical consequences. And fight the nonsense later. Hope you Gabe access to legal aid, or at least can generate pressure in the media.06:31
finely[m]<de-facto "so they actively prevented them "> Democracies have been undermined by the extreme concentration of wealth and power  caused by Washington consensus economic 'rationalism'. Short answer is corruption - if you are confused by a decision made by a government that harms a population, think about who benefits from the decision. Business owners, corporations, the oligarchs benefit from society being open, while06:43
finely[m]they stay at home safe.06:43
finely[m]<LjL "de-facto, as a consideration, Op"> Don't forget to factor in the public funding of basic research that underpins (almost) all scientific progress.06:51
finely[m]* Democracies have been undermined by the extreme concentration of wealth and power  caused by Washington consensus economic 'rationalism'. Short answer is corruption - if you are confused by a decision made by a government that harms a population, think about who benefits from the decision. Business owners, corporations, the oligarchs benefit from society being open, while they stay at home safe.07:00
finely[m]I am beginning to wonder if there is an element if eco fascism in the decision making of some. "There are too many people. This causes climate change (not really correct at all). A virus that kills poor people is good.07:00
finely[m]I don't think it is a coincidence that countries trending to open fascism have been working against public health measures, or stopping less developed countries from developing their own vaccine manufacturing capability.07:00
finely[m]* That's terrible Peter. Depending on where you are, it may be better to accept the legal consequences for the moment to guard against the medical consequences. And fight the nonsense later. Hope you have access to legal aid, or at least can generate pressure in the media.07:00
finely[m]* Democracies have been undermined by the extreme concentration of wealth and power  caused by Washington consensus economic 'rationalism'. Short answer is corruption - if you are confused by a decision made by a government that harms a population, think about who benefits from the decision. Business owners, corporations, the oligarchs benefit from society being open, while they stay at home safe.07:01
finely[m]I am beginning to wonder if there is an element if eco fascism in the decision making of some. "There are too many people. This causes climate change (not really correct at all). A virus that kills poor people is good."07:01
finely[m]I don't think it is a coincidence that countries trending to open fascism have been working against public health measures, or stopping less developed countries from developing their own vaccine manufacturing capability.07:01
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Vaccine battle heats up with EU ready to halt UK shipments → https://is.gd/mNGKlB07:19
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: (news): Coronavirus vaccines: PM to telephone EU leaders in bid to stop export ban being imposed → https://is.gd/3q9Ewf08:11
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: India: Stranded in paradise: Indian tourists with Covid-19 exposure stare at huge costs, extended stays in Maldives → https://is.gd/baGW9m08:22
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Evidence supports COVID hearing loss link, say scientists: Hearing loss and other auditory problems are strongly associated with COVID-19 according to a systematic review of research evidence led by University of Manchester and NIHR Manchester Biomedical Research Centre (BRC) scientists. → https://is.gd/tNtHNJ08:42
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Poll shows plunge in Europeans' trust in AstraZeneca jab: Trust in AstraZeneca's coronavirus vaccine in many European countries has plunged following controversy around the jab in recent weeks, according to a new survey unveiled Monday by British pollsters YouGov. → https://is.gd/dneqgw09:13
finely[m]The reddit thread on the BBC article about the developed world stopping the rest of the world manufacturing vaccines has a justification for it: if any pharmaceutical company could make them, there would be a drop in quality control, causing a bad batch that harms people, which would lead to bad press, increased vaccine hesitancy, and thus a large enough population for the virus to replicate in and throw up variants of09:15
finely[m]concern and inevitably vaccine resistant strains.09:15
finely[m]Even if you accept the proposition that it is impossible to cooperate and maintain quality in a more equitably distributed manufacturing process (and I don't agree that's a given), the rest of the argument is obviously bullshit. The situation we are in right now us it will take 3 years to vaccinate the entire world. That's a much larger population for VOCs to evolve in.09:15
* finely[m] < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/dnPkkXrAxfaWNOLtoyePXVBq/message.txt >09:16
mobidropif vaccine resistant strains are inevitable then why attempt to vaccinate the entire global populatios09:21
mobidropif we can see this coming it should be like the flu shot: take it if you want for yourself09:21
mobidropdiseases like measles and polio can be defeated through (vaccinated) herd immunity, but if we already know that resistant strains are inevitable it seems hopeless09:26
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Uncategorized: STAT+: Winners, losers, and in-betweeners: How pharma companies stacked up in the Covid-19 vaccine race → https://is.gd/4DEydl09:44
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Think COVID’s messed up your travel plans? Try getting into China → https://is.gd/3e2K6309:54
ottavioOMG I had terrible side effects from the jab last night and this morning. I felt like I was going to die. I'm better now.11:26
finely[m]<mobidrop "diseases like measles and polio "> Because it will minimise the the number if deaths, long COVID and the long term economic damage these will create. And lower the chances a vaccine resistant strain evolves and kills you or someone you love.11:43
finely[m]* Because it will minimise the the number if deaths, long COVID and the long term economic damage these will create. And lower the chances a vaccine resistant strain evolves and kills you or someone you love.11:46
finely[m]They are inevitable, but its not an all or nothing scenario. There is plenty we could do to minimised the number of VOCs and the damage they inflict on us.11:46
brokmatinba19704I love to suck, do well, sех, do not mind sех together for you URL  http://v.ht/J2aR412:13
mobidropfinely[m], I can't reconcile the inability to achieve stable herd immunity with a push for near 100% vaccination coverage14:57
mobidropif the goalposts have shifted to reducing short term deaths then the vaccine should be treated like the flu shut: mostly for old or vulnerable people on a choice basis14:58
rpifani dont really like ppl pushing that israel is doing the best ever15:34
rpifanwhat will happen when the border reopens15:34
mobidropIsrael is the blueprint for the rest of the world, not a good perspective if you like human rights15:39
rpifanisrael is a horrible palce15:42
rpifanand not just said by me but ive heard it from the Israelis themselves15:43
rpifannow my question is how realistic is what the news says about israel15:43
de-factoyet their trends look very good https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/israel/15:58
de-facto52.7% fully immunized by vaccination https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccinated-covid16:00
rpifansure16:07
rpifanbut what will happen when the new variants come in16:07
de-factothats a very good question16:07
pepeedoes anyone know how many close cases do EU countries, UK and the US follow for each covid cased?16:07
de-factowhat are close cases?16:08
rpifani suspect they will dip right back into shit16:08
rpifanbut maybe not as bad in FR or DE16:08
de-factoimho Israel did many things right that most EU countries did wrong16:08
de-factoi guess we will see how well it turns out for them16:09
de-factoso far their numbers look absolutely fantastic16:09
rpifanwe will see16:09
de-factoi hope for the best, but expect the worst16:09
pepeede-facto, I mean, close contacts16:10
rpifanhoping for the best but expecting the worst are you gonna drop the bomb or not?16:10
mobidropis it possible that these vaccines can prime the immune system for an severe overreaction upon coming into contact with a mutant strain?16:12
de-factoidk id assue we would have read about that if that was the case, e.g. when they evaluated some (other) vaccines in south africa that employ the same variant of the s-protein antigen16:14
de-factopepee, hmm i guess its quite hard to estimate a rate for close contacts16:14
de-factoi think there are efforts to correlate mobility with number of contacts, but that only covers long distance, hence how to estimate local contact rates?16:15
pepeede-facto, do govts not publish those numbers?16:15
de-factoafaik those mobility datasets are public16:16
de-factobut again they dont really reflect contact rates16:16
de-factoi am not sure that is directly measureable16:17
rpifani wonder if we will continue lockeddown in DE until summer16:17
de-factofor sure there are strong correlations between lockdowns and number of infections going down, e.g. look at Portugal or UK or Ireland etc16:17
de-factobut thats indirect, lockdown measures causing contact rates to go down, that causing possible infections going down etc16:18
mobidropI'm thinking less restrictions during the summer and lockdowns again come spring16:18
rpifanim hoping lockdowns in the fall as well16:19
de-factowell in the summer people spend much more time outdoors (hence much less risk of transmission)16:19
de-factoor having their windows wide open etc16:19
pepeede-facto, I mean, they must have had an average X of contact cases for a given case, I want to know those avg numbers16:19
de-factoyes i understand what you mean, but how to measure X?16:19
de-factoone could try to ask people and document that or such?16:20
pepeefrom the numbers of people they followed-up16:20
de-factoin general reproduction = contact_rate * transmissibility * duration_of_being_infectious16:21
pepeeof course it's not possible to follow-up everyone16:21
de-factoand new_infections(t) = new_infections(t0) * reproduction ^ ((t-t0)/generation_time)16:22
de-factobut that would be indirect measurement again (e.g. depending on transmissibility and duration_of_being_infectious)16:22
de-factoso if we know B.1.1.7 got more reproduction (e.g. ~150% or such), how to know due to which of those cofactors?16:23
de-factomaybe people shed more virus, hence have a higher probability of transmitting it? maybe they stay infectious for longer time?16:23
de-factodid we compare scenarios with similar circumstances (e.g. average transmission probability or contact rates of similar risk)?16:24
de-factoits not so easy to measure such inter-dependent parameters i guess16:24
de-factobut i agree it would be really nice to be able to directly measure those separately hence have a time dependent value for all of those16:25
rpifando you think we'll have lockdowns in fall16:26
de-factoi hope not, it depends on how well we progress with vaccination production rates and campaigns16:31
de-factoim not sure though, because i somehow get the impression that governments in EU dont take it serious enough to really put all effort into ending it, sometimes even preventing progress in preventing new infections16:33
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: &#34;SUD - progetti per ripartire&#34; ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/sud-progetti-ripartire/16434 )16:59
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Gli impegni del Presidente Draghi dal 23 al 26 marzo ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/gli-impegni-del-presidente-draghi-dal-23-al-26-marzo/16435 )17:49
BrainstormNew from Ars Technica: Science: AstraZeneca vaccine: 79% effective and no rare blood clots in US trial → https://is.gd/jZYlVl18:18
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: Coronavirus: Third wave will 'wash up on our shores', warns Johnson: Boris Johnson says the UK will "feel effects" of growing case numbers in Europe amid a row over vaccines. → https://is.gd/kV9Db718:28
LjL-MatrixWelcome to lockdown!18:52
* LjL-Matrix uploaded an image: (349KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/zuBBxesvInUAgSGtGdeoBUFT/IMG_20210322_185038_HDR.jpg >18:52
de-factoah thats what they call Lockdown?18:53
de-factothem running out of adjectives like "hard Lockdown" and "full Lockdown" or "strict Lockdown" etc already says everything about their usage for that word imho18:55
de-factothe smarter ones introduced "level X Lockdown" with X = 1 ... N18:55
BrainstormNew from NPR: Texas Roadhouse Founder Kent Taylor Dies After Struggle With 'Post-COVID-19' Symptoms: Taylor, who gave up his salary last year to support front-line restaurant workers, is being remembered as a "people-first leader." He died by suicide last week at age 65. → https://is.gd/dQEmQ618:59
de-factobtw nice place there :)18:59
LjLde-facto: but look I've got more instances of distancing violations19:06
* LjL-Matrix uploaded an image: (293KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/yleWeDiEsMUsTYYyMXOACNBb/IMG_20210322_185409_HDR.jpg >19:06
LjL(To be fair I'm violating lockdown slightly too or I wouldn't be here)19:06
pwr22Looks a lot less busy than here19:07
* pwr22 uploaded an image: (140KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/YtfCMZZOGwgRQAFBkAEbAMZJ/IMG_20210322_132445.jpg >19:08
* pwr22 uploaded an image: (169KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/EbnEVfkleAZMWTXHpaDjFCIQ/IMG_20210322_132016.jpg >19:08
de-factohehe :)19:09
de-factoi think outdoors its not so critical, at least if people stay those 1.5m apart from each others, hopefully when doing work outs the coagulated cohorts are households or such?19:11
de-factohaha LjL nice place there, even the ducks proudly present their pond :D19:13
de-factohavent been in the city here for long time, but last time i checked it was more crowded than on those pictures19:14
pigasasLjL, out here one was always allowed to exercise, but they closed parks for a while, as folks were gathering19:16
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Brazil governor calls Bolsonaro a 'psychopathic leader' who made 'unbelievable mistakes' on Covid-19 → https://is.gd/E1ymil19:20
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Il Presidente Draghi interviene all&#39;iniziativa &#34;SUD - progetti per ripartire&#34; ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/il-presidente-draghi-interviene-alliniziativa-sud-progetti-ripartire/16440 )19:29
de-factoStupid Ministers are opposing to Merkel again19:42
de-factohttps://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/corona-gipfel-unterbrochen-merkel-will-deutliche-verschaerfung-der-massnahmen/27025820.html19:42
de-factowe urgently need the strictest lockdown ever in Germany and they are sabotaging all efforts to contain the pathogen19:46
de-factocant they see their strategy utterly failed to contain it?19:46
LjLpwr22, that looks similar to various streets here. nice paving though. anyway i guess i shouldn't be surprised since there's virtually no police enforcing the lockdown19:58
de-facto.title https://covid-sim.info/ really neat agent based simulation for Berlin20:04
Brainstormde-facto: From covid-sim.info: COVID-19 DataViewer20:04
LjLhttps://www.reddit.com/r/CoronavirusUK/comments/mangb5/hospitalisations_across_europe_since_december/  vaccine effect?20:21
pwr22<LjL "Peter, that looks similar to var"> We actually had riots at a police station yesterday20:23
pwr22Two police seriously injured20:23
pwr22At least 3 different causes doing the "protest"20:23
LjLpwr22, well maybe that wouldn't happen if some cop didn't rape and kill people and subsequently the police hadn't kindly asked everyone at her memorial to leave20:27
LjLi think even if it's not great that people flaunt lockdowns, the police have been acting a bit like dicks in many parts of the world20:27
LjLand governments giving them more power won't make people calm down more either20:27
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Colloquio telefonico Draghi - Sánchez ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/colloquio-telefonico-draghi-s-nchez/16442 )20:29
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Cuba to vaccinate 150,000 frontline workers as part of final phase of clinical trial → https://is.gd/InCQVk20:32
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Recent Commits to links:master: Add press release announcing AstraZeneca US trial results ( https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/9ce8b6341d98fd7430baf799bb3a0b45700da7be )20:35
LjLhttps://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/madm2k/eu_has_absolutely_no_need_of_sputnik_v_vaccine/grshjg1/  this person is overestimating me, the only answer i could give is "i've heard the US has a much bigger medical industry than Europe", which may be true but is a tad generic, so if anyone has more specific things to answer this with...20:40
BrainstormNew from https://covid19.specops.network : ljl-covid: Add press release announcing AstraZeneca US trial results → https://is.gd/mr5WWl20:43
BrainstormNew from WebMD: Many Grocery Workers Still Waiting for COVID-19 Shot: At least 137 grocery workers have died and more than 30,100 have been infected or exposed to the coronavirus in the past year, according to the union. In the past 2 months alone, there have been coronavirus outbreaks at grocery stores in Detroit, Los Angeles, Seattle, Houston, and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/LRAWI121:04
BrainstormNew from The Atlantic: The Vaccine Swing Voters: It’s official: America’s vaccine-supply crunch is over. The U.S. has ordered, optioned, or procured enough doses to immunize every single member of the population more than five times over , and all adults will be eligible for the shots by May 1. In other words, after months of careful rationing and [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/mKL9dc21:55
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Spain raises upper age limit for AstraZeneca jab to 65: Spain on Monday raised the maximum age limit for people to receive the AstraZeneca vaccine, which has faced setbacks in Europe due to safety concerns, from 55 to 65. → https://is.gd/hCxKoq22:16
de-factoseems like very hard discussions between Merkel and Ministers, they are overdue many hours already and even stopped for hours in between because they could not reach an agreement23:02
de-factoi really really really hope they will conclude on the strictest containment since begin of the pandemic because objectively its seems its the only way to contain this23:04
de-factoi mean we are already in what they call "Lockdown" and case numbers are exploding (exactly as predicted by many e.g. here for example Doc and me)23:05
de-factoactually exactly as expected with the reproduction numbers and portion of B.1.1.723:07
de-factoactually its even a bit scary how this pandemic exactly follows the easiest back-of-envelope calculations, meaning it is very predictable hence our influence with controlling it is pretty minimal (unless this is the intended trajectory)23:09
de-factoi desperately hope the time for compromises is over and the time of strict implementations of intentions brings some change in success rates of bringing this under control23:11
de-factobut then why are they discussing so long? why is it not like 1h of informing the ministers what they have to implement and 2h of them discussing about *how* they implement it and not *if* they are willing to do it?23:12
de-factoi fear they are working on compromises again, meaning the 3rd wave is unstoppable in Germany23:13
BrainstormNew from Politico: Coronavirus: Poland aims to protect NATO allies — from coronavirus → https://is.gd/wOt0HK23:17
BrainstormNew from Gazzetta Ufficiale italiana: DECRETO-LEGGE 22 marzo 2021, n.41: Misure urgenti in materia di sostegno alle imprese e  agli  operatorieconomici,  di  lavoro,  salute  e  servizi  territoriali,   connesseall'emergenza da COVID-19. (21G00049) → https://is.gd/pi3Mrj23:38
LjLBored of covid? Want more mystery diseases? Have [23:17]  Brainstorm: New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Unknown neurological disease in Canada, no answers or causes.. → https://is.gd/t5PPvX23:41
BrainstormNew from Politico: Companies: Threats but few details as European Commission demands vaccine ‘reciprocity’ → https://is.gd/IWFz1z23:48
de-factoi think there is a real crunch between Merkel and the ministers of the federal states23:51
Arsaneritare they still debating?23:59

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