libera/##covid-19/ Tuesday, 2021-03-23

Arsaneritgoodnight00:00
de-factoyes still00:04
BrainstormNew from University of Washington: Double dose of debate: Opinions vary on timing of COVID vaccine shots as potential 4th wave looms (includes Ruanne Barnabas): Vaccine-practice-768x432.png Close In a bootcamp that launched in January, University of Washington School of Nursing students train other UW students and faculty who hope to help in COVID-19 [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/5mMdLv00:29
BrainstormNew from The Lancet (Online): [Correspondence] Vaccines and SARS-CoV-2 variants: the urgent need for a correlate of protection: Immune-escape variants have raised concerns about the effectiveness of vaccines as the world scales up SARS-CoV-2 immunisation. COVID-19 vaccines have shown up to 95% efficacy1 in preventing clinical cases and up to 100% [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/IQvmSo00:39
de-factoheh thats helpful info about estimated reproduction values in various indoor scenarios00:56
de-facto.title https://depositonce.tu-berlin.de/handle/11303/1259200:56
Brainstormde-facto: From depositonce.tu-berlin.de: DepositOnce: Covid-19 contagion via aerosol particles – comparative evaluation of indoor environments with respect to situational R-value00:56
de-factolinked from00:57
de-facto.title https://blogs.tu-berlin.de/hri_sars-cov-2/2021/02/11/covid-19-ansteckung-ueber-aerosolpartikel-vergleichende-bewertung-von-innenraeumen-hinsichtlich-des-situationsbedingten-r-wertes/00:57
Brainstormde-facto: From blogs.tu-berlin.de: Covid-19 Ansteckung über Aerosolpartikel – vergleichende Bewertung von Innenräumen hinsichtlich des situationsbedingten R-Wertes – SARS-CoV-200:57
de-factoLjL, maybe something for the link collection?00:59
de-factoi guess its based on https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.08.20209106v501:03
de-facto.title01:03
Brainstormde-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Predicted Infection Risk for Aerosol Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 | medRxiv01:03
de-facto.title https://imgur.com/a/Kzm1R0F https://i.imgur.com/tam7hDq.jpeg01:21
Brainstormde-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19: Contagion via aerosol particles indoor environment comparison - Album on Imgur01:21
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Brazilian business elites blast Bolsonaro's Covid-19 response and call for universal income and Covid-19 lock down to stop its spread in the Country → https://is.gd/Ta0mgn01:50
LjLde-facto, i bet you like it because it says schools are bad :P01:54
LjLde-facto, meanwhile here's something i don't like: https://github.com/google/exposure-notifications-internals can you spot it? (hint: "it", or the lack of it)01:54
de-factoheh but 16 commits are a nice power of 201:57
de-facto"It was published as part of a [transparency effort][5], and there are no current plans to update the code contained within the repo."01:57
de-factoso illegal according to swiss law?01:57
LjLde-facto, probably, except they have removed the issue where that was pointed out01:58
LjLso i'd like to contact the person who said that, and inquire01:58
LjLbut now i don't know who they are01:58
LjLso transparent01:58
pwr22<LjL "and governments giving them more"> I agree but also two wrongs dont make a right01:58
pwr22They just make more covid01:58
LjLpwr22, when you're making laws that threaten people's right to protest in the long term, at a time when it's "not supposed to be okay" to protest due to health reason, you're making a recipe for trouble, and i only see one side being obviosuly wrong02:14
LjLde-facto, btw https://depositonce.tu-berlin.de/handle/11303/12592.2 has a newer version of the link you posted (same url but .2)02:20
LjLnot sure what changed. anyway, it would be interesting to have an interactive version of this model i guess instead of just some preset scenarios02:21
LjLah i guess you have that if i look elsewhere02:21
LjLor not, different one02:22
de-factoi think its the german version?02:30
LjLLanguage:English02:30
de-factohmm its not, you are correct its  english02:31
LjLif you check the other page https://depositonce.tu-berlin.de/handle/11303/12592 it says " Notice This is not the latest version of this item. The latest version can be found at: http://dx.doi.org/10.14279/depositonce-11401.2"02:31
de-factothey write "summary: adding another case"02:32
LjLah02:32
LjLfunny the site is called "deposit once", and they deposited it twice02:32
de-factolol indeed :)02:33
de-factoLjL, i guess an interactive version could be derived from their model in https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.08.20209106v502:34
de-facto.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ndgi2rILTig Corona-Gipfel: Merkel zu Ergebnissen | Pressekonferenz live02:37
Brainstormde-facto: From www.youtube.com: Corona-Gipfel: Merkel zu Ergebnissen | Pressekonferenz live - YouTube02:37
LjLde-facto, time to refine your transcribe&translate skills02:42
rpifande-facto, i didnt watch02:43
rpifani only saw the preinterview talk02:43
rpifandid they decide to shut us down again02:44
de-factoso far bla bla02:44
de-factoi am too tired to translate (and i cant compete with LjL anyhow)02:44
LjLpretty sure you can compete when it's from german :P but fair enough02:45
de-factoshutdown during eastern02:45
rpifande-facto, vlt du wüsstet nicht dass ich mehr als ein bisschen Deutsch kann02:45
de-factodoch wusste ich schon02:45
LjLund mit ... möglich ... werden ... dabei nicht ... wir werden in dieser zeit ... höffentlich ... gastronomie ... öffnet ... geschlossen ...02:46
rpifanna gut02:46
LjLi guess that gives the idea, i can stop02:46
LjLalso the audio went away02:46
rpifanlol02:46
rpifanalso its late for all of us why r yall up02:46
rpifango to sleep02:46
de-factothey make the mistake again addressing their wishes to the citizens02:46
de-factothey should agree on mandatory measures for the federal states with sanctions02:46
de-factootherwise every state will again just do what they want and not care about any agreements02:47
LjLwe're not even a federal countries and still the government cannot make the regions do what it decides02:47
LjLimagine if we were federal02:47
de-factoimho the whole federal model utterly failed02:47
de-factotests before flights LMAO02:48
rpifanwell02:48
de-factoomg such a fucking fail02:48
LjLit's all relative. you've still overall done better than most of the big european countries. of course there's a myriad of factors at play so who knows whose merit that is.02:48
rpifani thopught germany was a federal republic02:48
rpifanbundesrepublic02:48
LjLof course it is02:49
rpifani personally have thougth germany has bene fucking up covid since the 1st day02:49
rpifanalways putting more priveldge on the economy then the ppl02:49
rpifanplus the fact that its been over a year and they still dont have a plan is idiotic02:50
LjLthat's what every country in the EU did, but germany did the least bad02:50
rpifanat least the uk can say ok, today its Level 2 and tommorow Level 302:50
LjLif you compare it to asian countries then yes it's a failure02:50
rpifanso ppl who what the regulations are02:50
de-factoits not people or economy, economy only can work with healthy people without pathogen circulation02:50
rpifanand can plan ahead02:50
rpifaninstead the bundesgovt changes it mind every 3 weeks02:50
rpifanand it creates chaos02:50
rpifanthen the lä02:51
LjLnder02:51
rpifanländer do whatever they want anyway02:51
de-factoits a chaos, those ministers of federal states are compete idiots, they are the source of all those problems02:51
rpifani saw a confernece where merkel was like, ok well i wanted us to shut down but are a federal republic and the states do what they want sorry02:51
de-factothey oppose to any agreement of substance02:51
rpifanand i was like really? then whats your job Merkel. i felt bad for the woman and i dont really like her02:52
de-factomerkel is the only one that understands this02:52
LjLthat's like asking what the US president's job is though02:52
LjLjust because he cannot do state-specific things doesn't mean he isn't quite powerful02:52
de-factofuck.02:53
de-factoi knew already this would not work properly when they started with blabla02:53
de-factothats always bad sign02:54
rpifanyes except the uS president can force states to do stuff02:54
rpifanfor example they have forced states to increase the drinkign age to 2102:54
rpifanby saying if u dont, you dont any funds for roads02:54
LjLgovernment by blackmail, sounds lovely02:54
de-factohere are the decisions02:54
de-factohttps://www.bundesregierung.de/resource/blob/997532/1879672/2854753dbc7549432db7f0bba94e8c0f/2021-03-22-mpk-data.pdf?download=102:55
rpifanwell politics is blackmail02:55
LjLwow you wrote those down pretty quick!02:55
de-factohttps://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&u=https://www.bundesregierung.de/resource/blob/997532/1879672/2854753dbc7549432db7f0bba94e8c0f/2021-03-22-mpk-data.pdf?download%3D102:56
de-factoif they start begging the citizens it means they could not agree on effective containment and they know it02:56
rpifanthats a lot of text02:56
rpifanlotso f bla blah02:56
rpifaninstead there a real summary02:56
rpifanall i understood is that they are possibilites but nothing firm02:57
LjLhmm they'll be giving everyone (who wants it, presumably) one free test per week02:58
LjLthat's similar to what Greece just did02:58
LjLas always i assume there are some shared EU decisions "in the background" that we aren't really told about02:59
rpifani saw one of those comedians in german02:59
LjLor at least, some common recommendations that are made to EU governments02:59
rpifanmake fun of the fact that spahn said we could get those test one year ago02:59
rpifanand they sitll werent around02:59
LjLwell, in 2023 or so we'll make fun of the fact we were supposed to all have vaccines "by summer 2021"03:00
LjLi hope by saying 2023 i'm not being overly optimistic though03:00
rpifanim a huge pessimisst and i want the lockdowns to continue03:01
rpifanand even i dont think03:01
rpifanwe cnat do it by 202203:02
rpifani suspect by december 2021 well have the vaccines for everything03:02
rpifanbut not before that03:02
rpifanthe rest of the year wil lbe much like 202003:02
LjLwhenever we're "done" vaccinating, chances are we'll already have to be moving towards vaccinating everyone again, either against new variants, or just to keep the immunity, or both03:13
LjLSouth Africa is ceding AZ away to other countries. i doubt they would be doing that if they weren't pretty convinced it's not very useful against their variant.03:14
de-factoLockdown will be continued at least until April 18th03:15
de-factoStable weekly incidence of 100/100k will decide between closing/opening03:15
de-factoAdditional measure MAY be a) masks in cars b) quicktests in risk scenariios c) curfews d) stricter contact restrictions03:16
de-factoShutdown during eastern 1-5 April, one additional household max 5 ppl03:16
de-factoMore testing after eastern, one quicktest per week is for free, screening tests in schools and kindergarden (twice a week), vaccinations of teachers03:16
de-factoOpening in certain scenarios can be done when accompanied with gap-less testing (no exceptions) and electronic tracing03:16
de-factoCompanies may offer home office or should offer tests (1-2 weekly) on regular basis03:16
de-factoClosed companies will be supported financially03:16
de-factoCitizens are encouraged not to travel and must register when returning from risk locations and quarantine 10 days that can be aborted with negative test after 5 days (!), with the exception of locations with mutants (14 days quarantine strictly required), all airlines must test prior to entering Germany03:17
de-factoHospitals will get financially supported03:17
de-factoVaccinations are done from high risk to low risk (and associated)03:17
de-factoChancellor and Ministers will meat again at 12th of April.03:17
LjLthanks03:17
LjLthe free testing sounds good, the rest sounds a bit unconvincing03:18
de-factotbh i am not convinced at all03:18
de-factoi think this is a big failure.03:18
de-factowhat exactly is supposed to bring down contact rates hence reproduction?03:19
de-factothere is NOTHING of any substance in there03:19
de-factoits all a big bla bla03:19
de-factooh well then we will see how far we can go03:20
de-factoprobably will have doubling numbers each 10 days until they decide for a real lockdown03:20
de-factogn8 :(((03:22
LjLnight03:25
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: WHO: Global coronavirus deaths rise for first time in 6 weeks → https://is.gd/fPZbry03:41
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: Israelis vote on Netanyahu again, after vaccination success → https://is.gd/MZFSRJ04:13
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Wildfire smoke is particularly harmful to kids’ respiratory health, study finds: Wildfire smoke was associated with a far greater number of pediatric respiratory care visits than other sources of airborne fine particles, according to a new study, even when wildfires were… → https://is.gd/h405mP05:13
LjLubLIX[m], <SoftwareSheriff1> (the python weechat plugin sucks really hard, it blocks the UI thread on network stuff so everything will freeze on you for a length of time determined by your network speed every so often. the rust one doesn't have this problem)05:15
BrainstormNew from Politico: Merkel announces hard lockdown for Germany during Easter holidays: Germans will be urged to stay home for first five days of April as country faces 'exponential' growth in coronavirus cases. → https://is.gd/4lEA6z05:23
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Massive religious gathering worries India as COVID-19 cases surge (Ganges River) → https://is.gd/Ti7NnB06:04
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express: World: First COVID, then psychosis: ‘The most terrifying thing I’ve ever experienced’ → https://is.gd/5ROd3n06:25
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: AstraZeneca may have provided incomplete efficacy data from latest COVID-19 trial: NIAID → https://is.gd/BrFkn607:16
BrainstormNew from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | March 23, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/AAz2Wi08:07
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: AstraZeneca may have included 'outdated' data in US vaccine trials: regulator: AstraZeneca may have included out-of-date drug data in information provided during US trials for its COVID-19 vaccine, a regulator said late Monday, citing concerns from a monitoring board. → https://is.gd/olqnuW09:08
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Brazil governor calls Bolsonaro a 'psychopathic leader' who made 'unbelievable mistakes' on Covid-19 → https://is.gd/DlG6Kr09:18
BrainstormNew from StatNews: ‘You work your butt off’: Inside the scramble to bring Covid-19 vaccines to homebound Americans: The early vaccination campaign has tried to prioritize the sickest and most elderly. But it’s leaving behind a key, highly vulnerable group: Hundreds of thousands of Americans who are confined… → https://is.gd/pc8Dri09:39
BrainstormNew from StatNews: What we know and don’t know about long Covid: "The most important question right now is, how can we help identify patients who may be at higher risk of long Covid?" says medical oncologist Karik Sehgal. → https://is.gd/Lssm8q09:50
najari[m]<LjL-Matrix "najari: not really, I think the "> thanks for the input10:03
BrainstormNew from Politico: US health agency casts doubt on Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine data: Officials raised concerns just after AstraZeneca announced that its US study indicated the shot was safe and effective. → https://is.gd/5EoGHw10:10
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Imran Khan testing COVID-19 positive days after Sinopharm dose raises questions about efficacy of China's vaccine → https://is.gd/qbJfYL10:31
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Germany has extended its lockdown for three weeks, imposing an almost complete halt over the Easter holiday in response to a third wave of coronavirus infections. → https://is.gd/at1uih10:41
diofantozhmm what a shitty virus11:04
diofantozsome reports on lower numbers in UK now?11:04
diofantozbut the mutations are worrisome11:04
diofantozalso people saying it's "might become a seasonal virus"11:05
diofantozas if they're comparing it to influenza11:05
diofantozis that really accurate?11:05
generamaybe in UK. maybe in .at and .de there is something else https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1373972890132099076.html11:07
BrainstormNew from ScienceNews: Health & Medicine: Here’s what makes 4 promising COVID-19 vaccines unique — and potentially useful → https://is.gd/YAvAXh11:12
diofantozi can't read german11:13
generaits austrian. and triage is not even german )))11:14
diofantozösterreichean11:14
diofantozmight as well go drink my immune system down to zero11:15
diofantozget infected and see what happens11:15
diofantozdeath before boredom11:16
diofantozjoking of course ... but opening up society seems way off now11:17
diofantozi'm in the queue to get vaccinated with the wrong vaccine11:18
diofantozgreat11:18
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Name of vaccine Russia's Vladimir Putin to take will be a secret, says Kremlin → https://is.gd/ZPvzYu11:43
diofantozhttps://www.bbc.com/news/health-5648344511:45
BrainstormNew from EMA: News and press releases: (news): COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca: benefits still outweigh the risks despite possible link to rare blood clots with low blood platelets, PRAC, 18/03/2021 → https://is.gd/wjiI3L12:04
BrainstormNew from Politico: Companies: Merkel warns EU ‘to be very careful’ with vaccine export bans → https://is.gd/NzDQq712:35
BrainstormNew from BMJ: Covid-19: Brazil’s hospitals close to collapse as cases reach record high: Hospitals across Brazil are on the brink of collapse as the country faces the worst chapter of its pandemic yet.Out of the country’s 26 states, 24 have 80% or more of their covid-19 intensive care... → https://is.gd/oxaE4b12:55
BrainstormNew from BMJ: Covid-19: Health and social care workers need, want, and deserve reusable FFP3 respirators: Zhang and colleagues argue that single use personal protective equipment (PPE) is crucial for infection control in healthcare settings,1 but reusable options are better for the environment and... → https://is.gd/7ytFi513:27
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Vaccine-induced antibodies still potent against more contagious SARS-CoV-2 variant: The variant of the SARS-CoV-2 virus known as B.1.1.7 is still susceptible to antibodies induced after COVID-19 infection or immunization with a currently available vaccine, according to Emory University scientists. → https://is.gd/UUSUdz13:38
BrainstormNew from NIH Director's blog: Predicting ‘Long COVID Syndrome’ with Help of a Smartphone App: As devastating as this pandemic has been, it’s truly inspiring to see the many innovative ways in which researchers around the world have enlisted the help of everyday citizens to beat COVID-19. An intriguing example is the COVID Symptom Study's [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/DShTGy14:10
BrainstormUpdates for India: +87666 cases (now 11.7 million), +410 deaths (now 160111) since 2 days ago — Maharashtra, India: +55180 cases (now 2.5 million), +157 deaths (now 53457) since 2 days ago — Ukraine: +19125 cases (now 1.6 million), +328 deaths (now 30888) since 2 days ago — Jordan: +18058 cases (now 544724), +197 deaths (now 5985) since 2 days ago14:16
BrainstormNew from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: AstraZeneca may have used ‘outdated’ info about its Covid-19 shot; Democrats eye drug-pricing measures → https://is.gd/4RW8f914:20
BrainstormNew from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): COVID-19 Vaccine Moderna, COVID-19 mRNA Vaccine (nucleoside modified), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 06/01/2021, Revision: 1, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/ApJcx914:42
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: U.S. health officials raise flags about AstraZeneca's COVID vaccine trial data: U.S. health officials called the results of AstraZeneca's coronavirus vaccine trial into question early Tuesday, saying the company may have used outdated data that could have changed its conclusion about the efficacy of the vaccine. → https://is.gd/BxQiP815:15
BrainstormNew from Ars Technica: Science: Authorities raise red flags about AstraZeneca’s vaccine press release → https://is.gd/3Qxhgt15:26
BrainstormNew from BBC Health: (news): Covid: Banksy painting raises £14.4m for NHS charities → https://is.gd/hBWDtv15:36
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: China approves inhaled CanSino vaccine for clinical trials: China's drug authority has approved for clinical trials an inhaled COVID-19 vaccine co-developed by domestic firm CanSino Biologics, the company said in a filing on Tuesday. → https://is.gd/lyTrYD15:47
BrainstormNew from EMA: What's new: General: COVID-19: latest updates → https://is.gd/ejWHzQ16:08
BrainstormNew from Ars Technica: Policy: Dark web bursting with COVID-19 vaccines, vaccine passports → https://is.gd/J2mUpG16:19
BrainstormNew from The Indian Express (Health): Art and Culture: One Good Thing: An artist preserves Wuhan’s COVID memories → https://is.gd/IX2z6b16:30
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: Pfizer vaccine less effective against South African variant, study finds: Ben-Gurion University of the Negev (BGU) researchers have found that the Pfizer Coronavirus vaccine is moderately less effective against the South African variant, but still neutralizes the British variant and the original SARS-CoV-2 strain. → https://is.gd/SXin7T16:41
de-factowho would have thought that?16:46
de-facto.title16:47
Brainstormde-facto: From is.gd: Pfizer vaccine less effective against South African variant, study finds16:47
de-factohttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S193131282100136016:47
de-factomeeh16:47
de-facto.title16:47
Brainstormde-facto: From www.sciencedirect.com: SARS CoV-2 spike variants exhibit differential infectivity and neutralization resistance to convalescent or post-vaccination sera - ScienceDirect16:47
bin_bashwell that's poop. i guess ill need a booster16:47
de-facto.title https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03398-216:50
Brainstormde-facto: From www.nature.com: Antibody Resistance of SARS-CoV-2 Variants B.1.351 and B.1.1.7 | Nature16:50
de-factostolen from that paper16:51
de-facto.title https://imgur.com/a/5awmD9E https://i.imgur.com/8co1IoL.jpg "SARS-CoV-2 VoC B.1.1.7 and B.1.351 neutralization evasion"16:51
Brainstormde-facto: From imgur.com: SARS-CoV-2 VoC B.1.1.7 and B.1.351 neutralization evasion - Album on Imgur16:51
BrainstormNew from WebMD: U.S. Pedestrian Deaths Rose in 2020, Even Though Driving Declined: Despite the fact that Americans have been driving less during the pandemic, pedestrian deaths per mile in the United States spiked 20% in the first half of 2020, new research shows. → https://is.gd/Fvf0ES16:51
de-factoyep poop indeed16:59
de-factowe need updates for all the vaccines (as i already said when the first AZD-1222 results from SA became available)16:59
de-factoVery interesting their page 29 (C) showing the relative infecctivity fo the variants17:00
de-factoall the ones containing N501Y seem to have a ~10-fold increase and even can be combines with the evasive bad boys (e.g. E484K and K417N)17:02
de-factohence N501Y+E484K+K417N probably is not only much more reproductive (contagious), it probably also is more severe and can partly circumvent antibodies against D614G17:03
de-factothat would be 20H/501Y.V2 aka B.1.351 CoV-VoC (the South African Mutant)17:06
de-factohence i guess if its roughly as infectious as B.1.1.7 (UK Mutant) we wont get rid of it simply by strict NPIs aimed at containing B.1.1.717:07
de-factoyet we wont have strict containment in Germany anyhow hence all irrelevant, it will explode into our faces, vaccinated or not17:08
de-factogreat.17:08
de-factogood that we allow traveling, so we always will be up-to-date with the newest globally circulating Mutants17:10
rpifanwell honestly de-facto what would u havee instead17:13
diofantozclose down the flights17:14
diofantozfor personal travels17:15
diofantozfor starters17:15
rpifanyou cant really do that17:15
rpifanalso you realize we have buses trains and cars17:15
diofantozyea close them down too17:15
rpifanand those are rarely if ever controled17:15
rpifanppl wont have that17:16
rpifanhonestly there is one thing they could do17:16
rpifanand should do17:16
rpifanand if they did we'd see a huge reduction17:16
rpifanand thats force every single person that possible can work from home, to do so17:16
rpifanbut they simply wont17:16
diofantozppl are idiots17:17
diofantozcan't give them any liberty17:17
diofantozthey can't handle it17:17
rpifanwell ppl in germany are addicted to going into an office17:18
diofantozthey can have liberty in a normal period17:18
rpifani dont get it17:18
diofantozthis is a serious situation17:18
rpifanppl acutally wanan go to work and sit in an office with a bunch of ppl17:18
bildramerthis could have worked if everyone did it for two weeks or so last year17:18
rpifani dont wnana be in an office ever worse now17:18
bildramerinstead there's incompetence at all levels17:18
bildramerthe vaccine should also have been ready within a few weeks, not months. the "testing" period is bureaucrats delaying shit because that's the only thing they know how to do17:19
bildramermarg bar bioethicists17:19
de-factoi dont see a reason why we should have global passenger travel, people can have fun with video conferences nowadays instead, holiday traveling is completely unnecessar17:20
de-factoi dont see a reason why we should have global passenger travel, people can have fun with video conferences nowadays instead, holiday traveling is completely unnecessary17:20
bildramerhere's a reason to have global passenger travel: your home is in germany, you are currently in romania17:20
de-factowell how did you get there?17:20
bildramerbut yes, most people are very reckless17:20
bildramerdoes it matter? everyone has their reasons. sometimes you are forced to by other people17:21
izrpifan: it's because there is an economic impact over all17:21
de-factoand if its absolutely not avoidable strict controlled hotel isolation could allow entering under biosecurity measures17:21
rpifanbut why working from home in 80 percent of office jobs has no real impact17:22
rpifannow of course if you work at the apotheke17:22
rpifanyou should be there17:22
rpifanbut ideally after a year we'd have online apothekes17:22
rpifanor vending machines17:22
bildramereveryone should work from home, and so on17:22
rpifanthat take prescriptiosn and dispnse it17:22
izthe economy and population of cities have grown to sizes where the business from ppl going to work every day and getting lunch and coffee and whatever else is needed for the economy to support the amount of ppl it does17:22
rpifanyes17:22
rpifanbut the lunch and coffee places are closed now anyway17:22
bildramerbut you have seen how much of a bitch fit normies throw when they can't go somewhere and talk at each other17:22
rpifanim not against allowing traveling17:23
izyeah, but that just means things will try to shift back to that17:23
rpifanwe should all just be given a quick test17:23
de-factoanyhow right now we are in big trouble in EU, not only because of B.1.1.7 but also because we imported B.1.351 from south africa and i BET it was due to some STUPID reason like holiday traveling and then carelessly seeding new clusters17:23
rpifanbefore leaving or entering germany17:23
bildramerit's because it's the only way they can really hide the fact that they do no work whatsoever17:23
rpifaneveryone at the airport or train staiton should arrive one hour earlier17:23
rpifanand be tested17:23
BrainstormNew from Derek Lowe: @Dereklowe: I've updated yesterday's AZ vaccine data post with comment on the bizarre developments since then. The company's PR on this has either been (1) very stupid or (2) extremely stupid, and they're doing a great deal of harm by being this incompetent:https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/03/22/astrazenecas-us-vaccine-trial-datahttps://is.gd/6ULNuy17:23
rpifanbildramer, well i think ppl are just addicted to being at work instead of working on hteir problems17:23
rpifanthey focus on work as if that had more value17:23
rpifaninsead its just a diverse for their sick and sad lives17:23
bildramerit's not addiction. that's a very charitable narrative17:24
bildramerit's "hey bob, can you do this for me? thanks"17:24
rpifani inestad just lounge at home all day in fear and dread17:24
bildramertwo or three times per day, that adds up17:24
de-factotests dont cover guaranteeing to import Mutants at all, what if infection just happened in the plane or a day before departure? tests probably would be negative and passengers happily spreading without even knowing17:24
bildramerit's what allows someone who doesn't know what a right click is to be hired for e.g. data entry or something17:24
rpifanbut de-facto its better then what we have now17:25
rpifanits really really hard to ban all travel17:25
de-factoaborting quarantine after 5 days with negative test also is stupid when MEDIAN incubation time is about 5.2 days meaning HALF of cases get symptoms earlier and the rest later, so after 5 days there is a significant probability that quicktests are still negative for already incubating infected individuals17:26
rpifanand instead i dont think it would be effective17:26
bildramertell that to north korea17:26
rpifanbildramer, tell that to the DDR17:26
bildramerit's trivial to ban all travel. it's really hard to deal with the people revolting afterwards17:26
rpifanppl wont have it17:26
rpifanits been 30 years since the end of the DDR17:26
rpifanppl accepted it for a month17:26
rpifanlast year17:26
rpifanthey wont take it again17:26
bildramerdamn, the decades pass so fast17:26
de-factowe really dont need travel, why would people need to fly to SA just to make some holidays there? it should be completely banned and requiring STRICT controlled quarantine for 3 weeks, regardless of any test results17:27
de-factopeople should pay for that themselves then17:27
bildramerde-facto: incompetence at all levels. expertise is worthless. trust in journalism is for fools. the sooner you accept this the better17:27
rpifanwhat is annoying to me17:28
rpifanis that its been a year17:28
rpifanand germany still doesnt have a comprehensive plan17:28
rpifanevne the UK has had a plan17:28
rpifanlevel 1 means X level 2 means Y17:28
de-factoyes hence we cant allow such scenarios, incompetent ppl at all levels as you said, no trust at all in their responsibility or not acting selfish or reckless etc17:28
rpifanin germany they just make it up as they go along17:28
de-factopeople are astronomically stupid, thats my take away from this pandemic.17:28
rpifanand they keep adding restrictions cuase they dont know what else to od17:28
rpifanwear a mask in your car?!17:29
rpifanwhy17:29
bildramersignaling17:29
bildramerit's a thing you, as an authoritarian, can enforce, so why not?17:29
de-factoif there were not flights that could be booked no travelers could act stupid, just because no plane is there to take off for them17:29
bildrameryou can't actually enforce people not visiting each others' homes17:29
de-factowhy not?17:30
bildramerbut this is something visible and checkable and people will feel the pressure to conform17:30
bildramerde-facto: not enough cops, not enough time, revolts, etc.17:30
rpifanits poinless17:30
rpifanidk if we should blame anyone at this point17:31
bildrameryou keep blaming hoi polloi for being retarded, it looks like to me, when you should be blaming the decisionmakers17:31
* de-facto needs to calm down.17:31
rpifanyea17:31
rpifani mean spain has managed to clean up their act better then germany this time around17:31
bildramergreece did well the first wave17:31
bildramerabnormally so17:31
bildramerthey had interesting requirements, send SMS and receive certain codes, or print out and sign some paperwork17:32
rpifanwell italy did well in the second wave17:32
bildramerobviously you can always fake all of that, and you can just add any random reason you like17:32
bildramerbut it's a minor inconvenience, and _on the margin_ that is a massive help17:33
de-factook i think we need to focus on how to get through the next months now, because hospitals will fill pretty quickly now due to B.1.1.7 in Germany17:33
bildramerit makes two quick trips into one quick trip, it makes the borderline "eh, should I go out or not?" trips turn into "nah"17:33
bildramerminor hassles are powerful17:33
de-factoif daily new infectious double each 10 days or such, so will severe progressions yet if rates dropping out of hospital (either dear or alive) are less than rates of people requiring hospital beds (as it is currently the case) we are in BIG trouble soon when no free personal capacity is left to treat them properly17:34
bildramerone thing nobody even _looked_ at is queueing theory17:34
bildramer"how do we minimize queues in businesses? what does the gigantic scientific literature about this say? ok, then do that"17:35
de-factounfortunately occupied beds start to rise *steeply* already https://www.intensivregister.de/#/aktuelle-lage/zeitreihen17:35
bildramerif one politician in the whole world did this I'll suck his cock17:35
de-factoand those reflect the pandemic situation of new infections 2-3 weeks ago17:35
de-factoreproduction number was (and still is) steeply rising since then17:35
rpifanim sure some politican did17:36
rpifanbut remember the good politicians often have no power17:36
rpifanevenif they are smart a senior dude says no17:36
rpifanand thats the end of it17:36
de-factomeaning we not only have a constant daily increase, but an accelerated daily increase of new infections17:36
bildrameryeah sucks17:36
rpifani honestly think quick tests are the only way out right now17:36
rpifanquick test everyone17:36
rpifanall the time17:37
bildramersomeone should do a ballsy move, like "no vaccine, no hartz iv"17:37
rpifani saw that my apotheke has quick tests17:37
rpifanbut u need to go online17:37
rpifanmake an appoiintment etc17:37
rpifanits a huge hassle17:37
bildramerit won't work but at least it will signal someone is taking things seriously up there17:37
rpifanthey should have big tents everywhere especally in hte large cities17:37
de-factoyes thats the only good thing about all this: now we are forced to deal with a very big problem in germany, hence maybe we find better ways of containment (i really really hope so, but it did not work for over a year now)17:37
rpifanthey shut down the testing site at the HBF17:37
rpifanand idk why17:37
rpifanit was random17:37
rpifande-facto, i dont see any better ways17:38
bildramerentire books will be written about this pandemic and as usual, 99% of them will be wrong17:38
bildramernobody can capture the zeitgeist17:38
bildramerthe lies by journos will be taken as gospel17:39
de-factolockdown or shutdown or whatever they call this does not help us this time, government just decided against doing more restrictions hence we need alternative to what we need in *addition* to what we already have, e.g. we need at least 50% less transmission due to some more smart things we do in *addition* to what we currently are doing17:39
de-factoidk maybe quicktests etc?17:39
rpifanquicktests17:39
rpifanand ban ppl from going to work in an office17:39
rpifanbut they just wont do it17:39
rpifanand most offices wont shut down17:40
rpifani had a job interview earlier last week and today they sent me an email we liekd you17:40
rpifanplease come into the office on thursday for a whole day of interviewing and testing out17:40
rpifanand i wasl ike wtf is wrong with you17:40
rpifanwhy would yu do thata17:40
rpifanman they just dont get it17:40
de-facto.title https://imgur.com/a/Kzm1R0F https://i.imgur.com/tam7hDq.jpeg "COVID-19: Contagion via aerosol particles indoor environment comparison" source: https://blogs.tu-berlin.de/hri_sars-cov-2/2021/02/11/covid-19-ansteckung-ueber-aerosolpartikel-vergleichende-bewertung-von-innenraeumen-hinsichtlich-des-situationsbedingten-r-wertes/17:41
Brainstormde-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19: Contagion via aerosol particles indoor environment comparison - Album on Imgur17:41
de-factoat our university one can get a gargle test once a week for free17:46
de-factoi think its PCR, not sure though17:46
de-factothey do it themselves in their lab, hence i guess its PCR17:47
rpifanyea must be pcr17:48
rpifanwhy dont we have faster pcr17:48
de-factothey write it takes 8h, so same day if given at 10 to them17:48
de-factoi guess i will try it in the next days, it makes sense to screen test17:49
de-factoi think they have to collect enough samples for a run, e.g. a whole cassette full of samples or such17:50
de-factoarray, whatever they call it17:50
de-factothe PCR itself probably does not take so long, id guess 60-90 min or such? idk though17:50
de-factoyeah quick google search said 45min for ~40 cycles or such17:52
de-factohence ~1h might be about right then?17:52
de-factoi never have done such a gargle test, but i want to participate in that weekly, just because i think because testing only makes sense if everyone participates, regardless of assumed risk of infection17:54
BrainstormNew from Derek Lowe: @EricTopol: RT by @Dereklowe: You have these data, @AstraZeneca. Please fill in this table → https://is.gd/Os7ioH17:56
de-facto.title https://imgur.com/a/1DwTKNj https://i.imgur.com/zsmaOQN.jpg18:05
Brainstormde-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19: Gargle test kit: NaCl solution, straw and sample tube - Album on Imgur18:05
de-factocomes with a manual and a QR code for registering the sample number on a website18:06
BrainstormNew from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Toronto doctor shares images of lungs to show how COVID-19 is 'brutalizing' young people → https://is.gd/u7LvCe18:07
LjLso, what about this latest AstraZeneca "thing" where the NIAD and Fauci are going a bit "what the hell?!"18:13
LjLi guess we can as usual go with the refrain "but regardless, the benefits of AZ outweigh the risks"18:13
LjLbut how many more blunders and stupid things does this company need to do before we lose trust in it18:13
de-facto.title https://imgur.com/a/8SleZQd https://i.imgur.com/isobOjz.jpg18:14
Brainstormde-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19: Gargle test kit: Manual in German - Album on Imgur18:14
de-factodarsie, ^^ probably derived from Austria gargle testing, are there differences in the procedure?18:16
darsiede-facto: We had 2 h no eating. 30 min no drinking, with exceptions like water. no washing. No 5. No 6. We spit directly in the test tube, no bottle. We didn't normally wash the test tube.18:22
darsieWe gargled in the garden, balcony or open window.18:22
darsieUnless it was the only person living there.18:23
de-factointeresting18:25
BrainstormNew from StatNews: The saga of mishaps and miscommunications overshadowing AstraZeneca’s Covid vaccine: The NIH's pushback on AstraZeneca's data is the latest in a seemingly endless saga of missteps and misfortunes surrounding its Covid-19 vaccine. → https://is.gd/xLctbr18:28
de-factoso longer accumulating of potential virions on the mucus, but no coughing, pulling up nose or spitting without gargling18:28
de-factoindeed they dont write anything about possible aerosol production by doing that procedure, e.g. on open window or such18:29
de-factoi bet they instruct to mix sample fluid in the original NaCl solution bottle because the sampling tube is so tiny18:30
de-factoits like ODxH = 7x50mm or such18:31
de-factoso spitting into that with just the straw probably would be messy, hence i guess they use the bottle with drip attachment to fill it into the sample tube18:33
de-factoalso maybe the reduced time ahead is related to them expecting the samples to be given to them at 10 in the morning...18:37
de-factoactually i wonder how much of a difference it makes18:38
de-factomaybe best time would be directly after sleeping and not having eaten anything yet anyhow18:39
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 vaccination hesitancy remains unchanged: Daily national surveys by Carnegie Mellon University show that while COVID-19 vaccine uptake has increased, the proportion of vaccine-hesitant adults has remained unchanged. The concerns about a side effect remain high, especially among females, Black adults and those with an [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/dowcnC18:39
de-factoactually thinking about it coughing will produce a LOT of aerosols, so they REALLY should warn about that18:48
BrainstormNew from ProPublica: Where Is My Tax Refund?: by Kristen Doerer for ProPublica and Karim Doumar ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power. Sign up to receive our biggest stories as soon as they’re published. So, you’ve figured out your deductions or credits , calculated how much you owed in taxes, and successfully filed [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/LYSNgn18:49
de-facto.title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.10.08.20209106v5.full-text "During breathing through the nose about 25 particles/s was emitted and during coughing about 13,700 particles/cough."18:53
Brainstormde-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: Predicted Infection Risk for Aerosol Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 | medRxiv18:53
de-factoso ~550-times as much aerosol produced for one cough than breathing 1 second through the nose18:55
de-factoiirc i read somewhere else that about 50 particles/s would be produced for breathing through the mouth18:58
BrainstormNew from Medical Xpress: SARS-CoV-2 viral-specific antibody response profiles vary with age: (HealthDay)—Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) viral-specific antibody response profiles are distinct in different age groups, according to a study published online March 22 in JAMA Network Open. → https://is.gd/keFbvC19:00
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Conversazione telefonica con il Presidente della Repubblica di Turchia Erdoğan ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/conversazione-telefonica-con-il-presidente-della-repubblica-di-turchia-erdo/16447 )19:27
* pwr22 uploaded an image: (14KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/shortestpath.dev/OPjVIAQtJhotMGinTjzsGkgJ/image.png >19:42
pwr22de-facto: see above image for what my brother said about doing PCR19:42
-RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Consiglio europeo, le Comunicazioni del Presidente Draghi in Parlamento ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/consiglio-europeo-le-comunicazioni-del-presidente-draghi-parlamento/16448 )20:07
de-factointeresting, i guess it strongly depends on the machine in use20:17
de-factomaybe i can call then and ask? :D20:18
mualaf[m]https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9389921/Ban-leaving-UK-amid-new-coronavirus-laws-force-week.html21:08
de-factofinally21:10
de-factothis is a very smart move especially with UK progressing fast with vaccinations and bringing down incidence with NPIs21:11
de-factowell done, they are on a promising path21:12
ArsaneritThey're telling us "stay home" but they're also telling us "go out into nature", which one is it :-/21:12
ArsaneritIs it a bad idea to rent a car in order to drive to the hills and make day hikes there?21:12
mualaf[m]dictatorship21:12
pwr22Yeah about time21:13
pwr22Finally using the advantage of BEING A FUCKING ISLAND21:13
pwr22That has apparently chosen it wants to isolate itself in every way but travel already21:14
de-factothis will turn out ot be very good for UK, because they cant afford importing the SA variant and having vaccinations becoming ineffective21:15
ArsaneritWhy don't UK and Ireland do like Taiwan, Australia, and New Zealand?21:16
de-factoi have to say recently UK government does surprise me with some quite smart decisions, it will be worth a lot economy wise21:16
pwr22As far as I'm aware we already have the SA variant spreading in the population?21:16
ArsaneritSouth Korea is also de facto an island.21:16
de-factoin Germany we have about 1% SA variant and some anecdotal cases of Brazil mutant21:17
de-factobut i expect a lot more of those VoCs will appear now when the pathogen is allowed to circulate in a partly immune population21:18
ArsaneritWhat's the point of closing business and industry for one extra day?21:18
pwr22<Arsanerit "Why don't UK and Ireland do like"> I've wondered that the whole time. Because we wanted to pretend that the best case scenario was likely and were wrong at every turn21:18
de-factohence it makes sense to do it like Israel and now UK, close import of now VoCs, bring down incidence via NPIs and vaccinate with the highest rate possible21:18
de-factothis is the only sane way imho21:18
pwr22de-facto: so far the UK has totally failed to contain any variants and I don't think they are even trying to trace anymore really - they fired all the track and trace workers21:19
de-factowell but incidence goes down afaik21:19
pwr22So this is probably too late for the current vaccines but maybe if we keep it going into winter and get gen2 vaccines then it might save us from the inevitable gen3 variants?21:19
ArsaneritDoes UK still have a strict stay-at-home order?21:21
pwr22No21:22
pwr22Everyone seems to be going out and stuff now21:22
pwr22in theory there are restrictions (you can meet 1 other person outdoors only) but in practice people are doing whatever21:22
pwr22And schools are in full swing21:22
de-facto.title https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.03.21252856v121:24
Brainstormde-facto: From www.medrxiv.org: REACT-1 round 9 final report: Continued but slowing decline of prevalence of SARS-CoV-2 during national lockdown in England in February 2021 | medRxiv21:24
de-factowell the decline in prevalence seems to slow down but still does not increase like in the rest of EU21:25
de-factoand heh UK is the only country with a representative random sampling study like REACT121:26
de-factoimperial college of london is awesome21:26
bloody_noob259[m@de-facto are we still only sequencing like 5% in germany?21:27
de-factohmm good question21:29
bloody_noob259[mI think rki once named that figure some weeks ago21:30
de-factohttps://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/DESH/DESH.html21:31
de-factohttps://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/DESH/Bericht_VOC_2021-03-17.pdf?__blob=publicationFile21:32
de-factoin German language21:32
ArsaneritShould we stay in or is it OK to rent a car and drive to the hills and go hiking?21:32
de-factopeople are the source for infections, if you rent a car desinfect it properly and go with just your own household where you dont have any contact to other people, how could transmission happen21:35
de-factoyet if you go to crowded places with queues and shared toilets etc transmission could happen even outdoors in proximity (via droplets) and of course indoors via aerosol21:36
bloody_noob259[mThanks for the link de-facto21:37
de-factoi would say if you can guarantee to stay away from other people outside your social bubble it would be ok, but not everyone behaves sane enough, hence i can understand if gatherings are not permitted in general21:37
de-facto.title https://imgur.com/a/oCgxhfY https://i.imgur.com/hV1F4zB.png src: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/DESH/Bericht_VOC_2021-03-17.pdf?__blob=publicationFile21:44
Brainstormde-facto: From imgur.com: COVID-19: Variants of SARS-CoV-2 in Germany - Album on Imgur21:44
de-factoPangolin notation and representative from swabs taken21:45
de-factoclearly B.1.1.7 dominates everything21:46
de-facto(the big red area growing from above)21:46

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