freenode/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2018-06-12

Achyllessome time ago I downloaded devuan-ascii-rc. Do I have to download the final non-rc version again or just use the rc Iso and apt update/upgrade all packages?00:22
gnarfaceAchylles: you don't need the new image.  just `apt-get update && apt-get upgrade`00:24
gnarface(that part is not different from Debian)00:25
Achyllesthx a lot :)00:26
tom13gooten morning02:08
tmbergHeh. That date format. ( 060818 )02:33
tom13this is offtopic but i think smart folks here might enjoy listening to The Black Dog - Bytes, while compu-ting.
EHeMI see to have run into a severe bug from somewhere...05:07
EHeMUpdate process appears to have suceeded, but after some adjustments the system isn't booting, I get to messages about "/scripts/local-block" and simply see that repeating and getting no further.05:08
EHeMThe adjustment was to update filesystems ext3 -> ext4, initrd were rebuilt, grub was updated, but things are very stuck for normal boot.05:09
EHeMRoot filesystem device appears in /dev/disk/by-uuid with the correct UUID.05:10
EHeM(root filesystem is RAID1 so it does need mdadm)05:11
EHeMs/^I see/I seem/05:11
EHeMI'm speculating something with the /usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/local-block/mdadm script is passing a failure indication to somewhere, but I've no idea what to do next.05:14
EHeM(sigh, the days of yesteryear when "init=/bin/sh" actually did exactly what you expected)05:22
EHeMHrmm, maybe it does boot, merely taking forever due to some boot script having a ridiculous timeout.  Phew (though that long timeout is a problem).05:23
tom13why does bootup wait 2 minutes for my ethernet when it is unplugges?05:24
tom13can i put that in background?05:24
EHeM37.220.36.58 which is in one (or more) of the round-robins is giving 403 errors.05:51
EHeM"" is either having problems, or wishes to exit from the Devuan package pool.  :-(06:01
TheBlueWizardI made a Devuan ascii stable mini live CD and booted it on a test machine. I was soon greeted with a rather strange menu: "std", "access", "std-toram", "access-toram". I have no idea what they are for. So I picked "std", and after some time I got a login prompt, and I do not know whay account and password to log to help?06:03
tom13root   toor06:04
TheBlueWizardok re: acct/ for the choices, what do they mean?06:05
tom13toram loads a livecd into ram memory06:05
tom13for faster operation06:05
tom13i do not know 'access'06:06
TheBlueWizardok...and the difference between std and access?06:06
tom13maybe it mounts partitions on hard drives it finds?06:06
tom13e.g. 'access to your pc'06:07
TheBlueWizardwould the mini live automatically launch a gui once I log in? (I'm on a different box right now; and I must swap the cables for the monitor to test on another box)06:10
tom13i remember a devuan livecd with just text, and with graphics06:11
tom13the ascii one i used was graphical06:12
* TheBlueWizard has not installed ascii on a machine yet...wants to test it first06:13
tom13i hope you can affordr spare monitor soon06:15
EHeMAh yes, the fun of setting "image_dest = /tmp/user/0" in /etc/kernel-img.conf...06:18
botfapcan anyone point me to a minimal core Devuan base rootfs for armhf & aarch64 pls?06:44
tom13botfap: #devuan-arm has some links06:45
botfapim porting to some rockchip test boards and cleaning up the ras pi images isnt the ideal starting point06:45
xrogaanso, how stable is beowulf?07:02
divagantexrogaan, debian testing is quite stable, devuan beowulf is based on testing?07:11
divaganteI don't know07:11
divagantemaybe in sid..07:11
xrogaanI still have that weird issue with my WM.07:12
xrogaanmaybe it's compton that just fail to load at startup.07:12
divagantethe issue is how the team deals with new packages that enter testing.07:13
xrogaanIt's an automated process for packages that aren't handled by devuan's dream team.07:14
divagantebut it's not that as soon as those packages feature systemd dependencies the dream team gets their hands on them?07:15
DocScrutinizer05loosely on topic: did any of you check weird behavior of KDE when starting a seconf session ("switch user")? I found my internet connectivity in first session goes south as soon as I'm in second. I.E IRC client disconnects - and rconnects the very moment I switch back to first session with ctrl+alt+F7. This is either a fsckup by systemd and session mgmt friends, or an intentional feature of the Kinternet-thingiebobbie that used to be07:17
divaganteI apologize, but I always found it most efficient not to use kde or gnome. Both are "luxuries" that we can avoid. hehe.07:19
divagantexfce4 and i3 forever!07:19
divagantehail i3! hail xfce4!07:20
DocScrutinizer05use kicad professionally and then we talk again ;-) There's a shitton of requesters and dialogs and windows that have fixed size for no good reason or open with idiotically shrinked size each time, and you really want kwin override of all possible window parameters. Also hotkey macros, though there's xdotool for that07:23
DocScrutinizer05Werner Almesberger used iirc xfce and didn't manage to get the fixes for kicad window size and position I had implemented to streamline the workflow with that thing07:24
DocScrutinizer05sure you don't *need* any of this, you can resize same window 5 times a minute, but... ARRRRGH07:26
EHeMI've got 32GB of ECC for building large project, not for GNOME or KDE to look pretty.07:27
DocScrutinizer05this is not luxury, this is a sanity guard for me07:27
divaganteHonestly, I feel like tons of unnecessary programming. Which I don't deny, they're nice, but they help the mistake and increase the work.07:27
divagantehey! that everyone uses what they want, but the more code, the greater the chance of failure.07:28
DocScrutinizer05nothing looks pretty here. I actaully don't see much except taskbar and window deco of KDE07:29
DocScrutinizer05and if sth eats my RAM then that's frequently whatever browser07:29
DocScrutinizer05KDE without apps started needs a few 100MB, low end of "few"07:30
divagantethe truth is, I hardly ever resize windows. Now I'm using i3 and they're automatic mosaics.07:31
DocScrutinizer05I neither do, all windows are usually fullscreen07:31
DocScrutinizer05and I got plenty of them, so I really never see the desktop wallpaper or any other of that crap07:32
divaganteI once felt that my graphic freedom was invaded by the mosaic dictatorship, but then I understood that it was an illusion. Automatic order is usually more productive.07:32
DocScrutinizer05still I love the features KDE offers07:32
divaganteAnyway, it's a matter of habit.07:33
DocScrutinizer05I seen colleagues who had only a 18 white-on-black xterms opened, tiled, on a black wallpaper07:33
divaganteI forgot them! The last thing I used was kde 4.12.07:34
DocScrutinizer05I'd get the rabies07:34
DocScrutinizer05pssssh dont tell anybody, it was rasterman ;-)07:35
divaganteI am finishing installing devuan 2!!07:35
divagantechoose xfce... jeje07:36
divagantewhat is the version of kde in devuan ASCII?07:38
DocScrutinizer05I can't answer that, I fucked my system with a suse upgrade today07:39
divaganteWhat a good, weird thing about this Enlightenment... I tried it a long time ago but I don't know. You feel a little up in the air with him. Don't use wayland yet07:39
DocScrutinizer05nah, I guess Raster will die before he uses wayland07:40
divagantesuse?? WTF??07:40
gnarfacehe'll use wayland the moment Nvidia does07:40
DocScrutinizer05err you mean samsung?07:40
gnarfaceno, i mean the moment nvidia cares about wayland support07:41
gnarfacewhich won't happen a moment before samsung cares about it07:41
gnarfaceprobably not a moment after, either07:41
gnarfaceit's all tied together07:41
gnarface(i'm still using e17 after all these years despite his disgust)07:41
DocScrutinizer05and Raster is a big fan of X11-genuine. We share the notion that you rather inprove X11 than reinventing it poorly07:42
gnarfacei dunno, i talked to him and i think he really likes the idea of wayland, but driver support isn't there enough to be relevant for him yet07:42
DocScrutinizer05I didn't talk to him for almost 10 years or so. So maybe he changed his mind meanwhile07:43
EHeMLarge parts of X really need to be rewritten from the ground up, but some bits of it are very good; having network access at the lowest layer has made many valuable things happen (notice X forwarding by SSH).07:43
DocScrutinizer05I didn't. Wayland when it supports *all* X11 tools and protocols, not a moment earlier07:44
gnarfacethis was within the last 2 years i had this conversation with him.  the fact of the matter is Nvidia's still put all their eggs in the X11 basket as far as their linux support, so that's still anchoring a lot of big efforts to X11 (note though i agree with Nvidia for once here)07:44
DocScrutinizer05yeah, exactly like VNC and ssh -X07:45
DocScrutinizer05and DISLAY=
EHeMXCreateWindow() having as arguments, width, heigh, x, and y is bad; it should have width and height, but x and y are the Window Manager's job.07:45
DocScrutinizer05xhost +07:46
DocScrutinizer05err you're aware the window manager calls X functions to create and move and resize wndows?07:47
DocScrutinizer05so how if not via parameters to such X*() call would that fly?07:49
gnarfacei dunno i haven't actually had any real problems with X11 in a very long time.  problems with 3rd party drivers on the other hand...07:50
DocScrutinizer05the only real argument I been given why wayland was needed: "how else would we play HD videos?"07:51
EHeMDocScrutinizer05: The point is X and Y shouldn't be being passed in by a normal client, it should only pass width and height and the window manager decides placement.07:51
gnarfaceDocScrutinizer05: raster's whole thing as of when i last talked to him about it was entirely about how much saner it made cellphone development for him07:52
DocScrutinizer05that's a valid point07:52
gnarface(similar to the pulseaudio thing)07:52
gnarfacebut since then wayland has not become even one iota closer to being even a proof-of-concept i can try out07:52
gnarfaceso i will not be holding my breath for that07:52
gnarfaceand i think putting screens on phones might have been the worst thing that ever happened to society07:53
DocScrutinizer05but it's kinda funny anyway seeing THE graphics guru Raster sitting in front of an all black screen with a mess of white ultratiny characters ;-P07:54
gnarfaceDocScrutinizer05: it's a lot funnier if you'd been privvy to his rant about how i don't spend enough on my monitors07:54
gnarfaceso i have an inkling of what the display cost that he apparently elected to fill with plain text07:55
divagantehey! people! I had read that if you chose the expert installation mode on devuan ascii it proposed to choose between sysvinit and openrc. This did not happen.08:00
DocScrutinizer05err I didn't read "propose", rather "offer"08:03
DocScrutinizer05which prolly means you can tick a checkbox somewhere in package selection08:03
divaganteOkay. Okay. I just didn't see the box.08:04
DocScrutinizer05but until yesterday I had no vbox or wheatever to run a test install of ASCII here08:04
DocScrutinizer05you know, 4 years old system, with thoroughly fubared libs and package management08:05
Jjp137heh I just ran through the expert install really quickly; when you are loading the installer components from the install media, in the list that appears, make sure to select the "choose-init" component08:06
DocScrutinizer05indeed Beyond All Repair08:06
Jjp137divagante, ^08:06
Jjp137but if you installed already you can probably set up OpenRC later if you want08:06
DocScrutinizer05I'm pretty sure about that08:07
divaganteJjp137, ahhh!!08:07
divaganteI've already... stayed with sysvinit.08:07
divaganteThe option is hidden! I thought it was part of the process... my mistake for not looking!08:08
divaganteand you who use devuan, how do you configure or install firefox quantum?08:12
tom13apt-get install firefox08:12
divagantethe easiest way is to download the package and make a path to the executable, but then we must configure menus and things to make it look good... some other method?08:14
divaganteohh! is in the repositories?08:14
Jjp137actually, if you're not on ceres, I don't think there is a firefox package (at least on Jessie/ASCII), only firefox-esr08:15
divaganteOhh... the same thing happens in debian strecht...08:16
tom13the cool kid's treehouse is named ceres08:16
divaganteWhy don't they put it on the backports? in stretch I do a pinning to the sid repositories, but recently he asked me for one more dependency and I don't like that much anymore.08:17
Jjp137probably due to the dependency on Rust that Firefox has08:17
divagantecontinuing to add the dependencies of packages in sid could break the system.08:18
divaganteI don't remember if it was rust.08:18
divagantebut something was requested, and four packages were added together.08:19
divaganteI don't want to do it in devuan.08:19
tom13i found palemoon to be an option if you disagree with some firefox changes08:22
xrogaanAutomated configuration and settings is always wrong, I'm slowly starting to hate mate.08:23
divagantethe truth is, I thought quantum was good. More agile, more orderly loading..08:24
divaganteI enter about:config -mozilla- and remove everything that google, mozilla, geoip, and other things say.08:25
divagantehaha... in devuan ascii pulseaudio is installed by default, something that in debian stretch does not happen..08:28
divaganteMaybe it's a matter of space on the iso.08:29
EHeMUgh, elogind got installed by default during an upgrade; gone now, but yuck.08:35
ritcher89alguien habla espanol? the first cd 1 is enough to install xorg and openbox?08:41
divagantehola ritcher8908:45
divaganteaqui un hispano hablante..08:45
divaganteconta nomas, que te entiendo che.08:45
ritcher89hola ya probaste devuan?08:46
ritcher89esque solo tengo cd para quemar me sirve con un solo cd?08:46
divaganteacabo de instalar el nuevo estable.. el ascii, este no lo probe del todo pero la instalacion y luego agregar paqueteria funciona todo bien08:46
ritcher89o toca los tres08:46
divaganteel cd numero uno08:46
ritcher89sin internet?08:47
divaganteno no! es como debian.. con el cd1 alcanza. trae xfce408:47
divaganteaja.. sin internet.08:47
divagantelo que si la paqueteria es pobre.08:47
divaganteapenas tenes vlc y quodlibet, libreoffice y no mucho mas..08:47
ritcher89con lo basico me sirve muchas gracis08:47
divagantesi tenes un pincho -pendrive- bajate el dvd..08:48
divaganteojo con el torrent! trae un monton de isos por defecto!08:48
divagantepor nada che08:48
ritcher89vale gracias08:48
divaganteea! new support in spanish here!08:48
tom13i can almost read it08:50
divaganteYou know Spanish?08:54
divaganteI don't know English, I can barely read it, I'm using
Artemis3divagante, no tienes dvd?
Artemis3ah ritcher89 nvm08:59
divagantehola Artemis3, no era yo quien necesitaba.. de echo el usuario tampoco!08:59
divagantese lo recomende. gracias che09:00
divaganteone cd more pendrive its work well!!09:00
xrogaandoes dead for you too?09:38
xormorI am now trying out Devuan ASCII 2.0 amd64-live.09:39
xormorSeems to work smoothly. I had to set up the keyboard layout to Finnish and install HexChat, and I installed system updates/upgrades too, via Synaptic.09:39
tom13nice to see people trying it out09:41
xormorYes. I got an advertisement for it via a Facebook group. Facebook is a cancer, though, but luckily it has FOSS and (GNU)/Linux groups. There is a Debian group I am in, but it is a very quiet group. We need to get lots of chatter about Devuan going on, so people will get interested in it, and some will even try it out.09:45
xormorIs Devuan 1.0 more difficult to try out?09:46
xormorWe need to get this system on lots of desktop computers, and of course servers are a "must" target group for Devuan.09:47
xormorI have a BBA in Business IT degree, so I know how to market and how to fiddle around with UNIX, Linux, Debian, the Internet, the LAN's, the WAN's, the WiFi's etc.09:47
xrogaandevuan is basically debian oldstable I believe.09:48
xrogaanerr devuan 1.009:48
xrogaan2.0 notes the fracture between the two, systemd is not available at all.09:48
KatolaZxrogaan: Devuan jessie does not have systemd aither09:51
divaganteExcuse me... what the fuck does "business computing" mean? use Red Hat man for that!! hehe.. I say humorousl.09:52
divaganteThey look like made-up titles to me. There is the system administrator and his knowledge.09:53
system16i use devuan because it can run on a potato. (without a DE)09:53
system16and devuan makes a really good sftp file server btw.09:54
tom13i donate to devuan because it feels better than a case of beer09:54
tom13can i be your marketing guru? :)09:55
lall-saying stuff "better than a case of beer" might get you booed at.. and hurt the image of the distro09:56
tom13i didn't say which brand09:58
system16btw that text that shows up on startup isnt really nice. (DEVUAN COMES WITH ABSOULUTLY NO WARRANTY)10:00
system16u can make it a bit friendly10:01
xrogaanKatolaZ: does jessie comes with systemd by default?10:01
xrogaanI actually don't know10:01
xrogaanalso, how do I start a terminal with enlightment?10:02
xrogaanalt+f2 default to switching the workspace :(10:02
xrogaanI have yet to find a way to look at the default keybind for that DE.10:02
KatolaZxrogaan: devuan jessie has no systemd10:03
xrogaanoh, enlightment is probably one of the weird "we are a tactile DE". I just find it unusable. And the mouse cursor automatically goes back to the latest used window, that is annoying.10:09
golinuxxrogaan: Some Debian history regarding systemd here:
golinuxThat vote is why Devuan was created.10:09
xrogaanwell, what's devuan jessie then? A fork? If so, it's not more difficult at all. Just debian.10:13
xrogaanI don't really get what I said that was wrong.10:13
gnarfacexrogaan: left-click -> settings -> settings panel (you can change everything)10:14
xrogaanwent there 3 times. It's not obvious.10:15
xrogaanno tooltips, no nothing. Just lists of "stuff".10:15
gnarfacehmmm, windows -> window focus -> advanced10:15
gnarface-> miscillaneous10:16
gnarfacefind it?10:17
gnarfaceuncheck "slide pointer to a new window which is focused"10:18
xrogaanThanks, I did. E17 ain't for me though. If I have to spend time on something, I'd rather it not be in searching the GUI.10:18
gnarfaceyou'll probably want to change a few other things in there10:18
xrogaanOne thing I like is how I can change workspace by dragging my mouse on the edges of the screen.10:19
golinux<xrogaan> well, what's devuan jessie then? A fork?10:21
golinuxTes.  That's the whole point of Devuan10:21
golinuxYes really10:21
tom13ty for the  forum link, golinux10:32
tom13that is one of the most thoughtful forum posts i've read, ever.10:36
filipdevuanhey should i install non free nvidia drivers on my computer??10:53
xrogaanwhy not?10:55
tom13didn't work for me10:55
tom13then again i have this optimus laptop thing10:55
filipdevuanbecause theyre non free lol. im just worried if they can spy me10:56
KatolaZfilipdevuan: they will surely tell nvidia if your video card is rendering a prOn movie...10:57
tom13what advantage would they give you10:57
filipdevuani dont know if i should use basically free software and dunno if sticking to non-free is something that i want10:58
KatolaZfilipdevuan: you should use what you think it's better for you10:59
KatolaZif you understand the motivations behind free software, then you'd probably have little doubt about it11:00
KatolaZbut still11:00
KatolaZit's your decision11:00
filipdevuani wonder wheres my system monitor gone11:01
tom13i wonder if i should finish my cryptocurrency monitor dockapp11:06
filipdevuanyeah i would like to play games on my linux machine im anti spying anti steam but i ditched windows and i feel like installing everything wine steam lots of other games and try to run them under my linux pc11:13
tom13i hear nvidia drivers are better for games11:13
gnarfacethat's usually true11:16
filipdevuanso perhaps i should not care about free and not-free thing and just install them instead even if theyre non free11:16
gnarfacewhich video card is it, filipdevuan?11:16
filipdevuani know there are lots of nice linux games that iv never played before though11:16
filipdevuanwell i basically have two on my laptop cuz this is basically a windows laptop, its intel integrated hd and nvidia geforce 940mx11:17
gnarfaceoh, one of those11:17
gnarfaceyou might have problems with it11:17
filipdevuanim trying to run runescape 3 on my laptop but it works like crap11:17
tom13if the game doesn't need too much power m aybe you dont need the closed drivers11:17
filipdevuani mean it works but its not clear11:17
tom13is it running a low resolution?11:18
filipdevuanbut im like should i even bother with windows game...11:18
gnarfacehmmm, i wonder if they fixed reclocking for that card11:18
gnarfacethey might have11:18
filipdevuanill have a look11:18
xrogaanyou're trying to play runscape (non-free software) but are worried about the non-free software from nvidia?11:19
filipdevuanyeah exactly runescape is non free xD11:19
filipdevuanlinux is new world to me im so used to windows11:19
tom13have fun in it filipdevuan11:19
filipdevuanand spending money for games that run under it11:19
filipdevuanwell are games from synaptic manager all free what do u think11:20
tom13back when loki was making linux games i bought them all11:20
filipdevuanwhos loki?11:20
djphfilipdevuan: "free"11:20
tom13despite having no time for them11:20
djphsome are, some aren't11:21
gnarfacei'd ask in #nouveau about that hardware, filipdevuan.  mention the dual-video card thing.  you might still be able to avoid the non-free drivers11:21
filipdevuanbtw im looking for nice email provider that has free imap/pop3 do you know any nice ones??11:21
xrogaanfilipdevuan: try crawl11:21
filipdevuangame crawl?11:21
djphfilipdevuan: google?11:21
filipdevuanok thanks gnar, ill go there11:21
filipdevuani use dont use google xD. my hate to google forced me to leave windows for devuan11:21
djphfilipdevuan: i mean, they'll sell you to advertisers and everything, but free imap.11:22
djphwhat does GOOGLE have to do with WINDOWS?11:22
filipdevuangoogle spies on you and sells you data like windows11:22
djphwell, yeah, they're an ad company11:22
filipdevuanand @gmail sucks11:22
filipdevuani wanna have something different than generic gmail.com11:22
djphso then run your own off of linode / digital ocean / etc.11:23
tom13do isps filter outgoing smtp from end users?11:24
filipdevuanyeah if i knew how to do this xD11:24
tom13long ago my email was on my home pc11:24
filipdevuanill have look on these linode thanks and btw i cant post anything on #nonveau11:24
xrogaantom13: they do, limits spam11:25
tom13i have to try this again11:26
tom13but i am not wanting to mess with sendmail11:27
xrogaanMy ISP allows me to unblock some port though, but I have to make the request.11:27
tom13maybe post..11:27
filipdevuanoh i managed to get registered on safe-mail.net11:27
xrogaanare you based on america?11:29
filipdevuannah england11:29
filipdevuani wonder why has my system monitor disappeared11:29
KatolaZfilipdevuan: what is your "system monitor"?11:30
tom13what is system monitor11:30 provides free unix services then11:30
filipdevuani mean the app that shows me processes i run and interntet usage im not sure if that was called system monitor11:30
KatolaZfilipdevuan: top11:30
KatolaZand iotop11:31
KatolaZthe three of them do what you want11:31
filipdevuanokay :P11:31
filipdevuanim installing some e-mail client called sylpheed11:31
tom13gkrellm monitors stuff wile taking little space11:31
KatolaZ(now I was trolling you, sorry :) no idea of what are the corresponding GUI thingies....)11:31
tom13so do windowmaker dockapps11:32
xrogaanincluding email services11:32
tom13ill check it out11:32
filipdevuani remember iv always had default installed system monitor or something like that...11:32
tom13how many users does it have xrogaan ?11:32
KatolaZsdfeu seems to be a bit on the abandoned side lately11:33
KatolaZsdf is still pretty active11:33
filipdevuanso i downloaded something in .tar.bz2 what command would extract it and then install??11:54
KatolaZman tar11:54
lall-learn how to do it by reading manual. you can read manual by typing man tar in the command line.11:57
lall-well, tar manual anyway.11:57
filipdevuanok cheers11:57
lall-man command will be useful for you. so man program where program is the program you want to read manual for.11:59
lall-man ls11:59
KatolaZfilipdevuan: unix is not stackexchange ;)12:00
filipdevuanok thanks12:00
KatolaZyou deserve more than a pre-cooked and quick answer, that you have to ask again for next time12:00
KatolaZdecompressiong stuff is a basic task12:00
KatolaZand you gotta learn how to do it12:00
KatolaZeither  using a commnad12:00
KatolaZor using a GUI12:00
tom13happily new gnu tar understands compression type automatically12:01
KatolaZchoose your way, but keep learning ;)12:01
tom13but manpages are exhaustive12:01
filipdevuanyeah i mean i know how to do it using GUI but id love to have the app in the application menu after i donwload it but now its just in the folder on the desktop12:02
tom13there should be dummyman pages12:02
tom13with the most common uses in examples12:02
lall-unless it's a distro package you cannot "install it". .deb files don't usually come in .tar.bz2, and they are the ones that you can install. so i'm assuming you either have to compile it or if it's statically linked then just copy it somewhere and add it in the app menu.12:03
lall-actually... some things have their own installers12:04
filipdevuanok thx :)12:05
gnarfacefilipdevuan: something that would have saved me a lot of time starting out; `man man`12:06
foxmeanHello, everybody.12:08
foxmeanI've migrate form UbuntuMATE, I'm still newbies. I would like to know, where I can find documentation about installing bootloader.12:10
foxmeanMy machine is Laptop HP G3212:10
tom13i cant remember the difference between ar and tar12:10
gnarfacefoxmean: look up grub and lilo12:11
tom13all these memories will be lost, like tears in the rain12:11
foxmean@gnarface Thank you so much.12:13
gnarfacenp :)12:13
filipdevuangoddamn i downloaded some e-mail client called sylpheed12:53
filipdevuanand i can only send e-mails to myself but when i send it on other domains like protonmail it says 550 relay not permitted12:53
filipdevuanwhat e-mail client would you suggest to use??13:32
tom13there is mutt13:32
tom13and older, alpine13:32
tom13and before that, there was pine.  then before that, 'mail'13:33
filipdevuanokay ill check mutt thanks :)13:34
filipdevuanbtw is this true that nsa and other agiences apply some backdoors in hardware and even though i use devuan they can still spy me?13:35
filipdevuanis devuan gnu??13:35
tom13i dont know what capabilities nsa has13:41
tom13but some people disable the management engine now13:41
tom13there is howto13:42
filipdevuani regret that i bought windows 10 laptop with intel core i5 instead of libre laptop ;//13:43
filipdevuanit may be affected13:43
tom13everything since core duo has ME13:43
xrogaanis there a way to know if a packet exists in backports but not installed?13:44
filipdevuanyeah but they sell these laptops with ME removed they say13:44
tom13yes, disabled, probably13:44
filipdevuanok cheers ill search shit about it do you have me disabled or you dont care??13:45
tom13i care but.. am pessimist13:46
tom13am building a silent ryzen laptop13:46
AMDmi3is there no more Devuan testing?13:47
tom13yes, the cooling is a 20x20x1cm aluminum heatsink13:47
tom13goes on back of display, with mainboard.13:48
tom13the base is trackpoint keyboard plus giant battery13:48
tom13i await working ryzen opengl drivers in devuan13:49
filipdevuanwtf is this?
filipdevuanit it like wireless driver on my laptop but secure??13:56
tom13i dont know that adapter, but some people use usb wireless and disable onboard13:57
filipdevuanand its more secure??13:58
filipdevuani think iv had usb adapter somewhere itd be better than onboard one????13:58
tom13this goes too far afield of devuan topic13:58
tom13but as a rule, you can trust intel to be spies13:59
tom13the joke is right in the name13:59
djphfilipdevuan: looks mainly like a "hey, you don't have to fight with this like every other USB card out there"14:49
filipdevuani wanna pay for a proper e-mail service and i think im gonna use this one
filipdevuanbasically im looking for pop3/imap support for client14:51
AMDmi3that is, there's no more `unstable' or `beowulf' on, is this to be expected?14:54
KatolaZAMDmi3: there has never been a beowulf there14:56
KatolaZAMDmi3: you should use starting with ASCII14:56
KatolaZand anyway, has unstable14:56
KatolaZbut again, it's recommended to switch over to deb.devuan.org14:57
AMDmi3zoh, nice, has all the repos, thank you!14:57
djphfilipdevuan: or run your own mailserver (it's involved, so that you get security right ..)14:58
filipdevuanyeah that would be perfect to run my own mailserver but i have no idea where to start14:58
djphthere are (were) some decent tutorials up on linode / digital ocean15:00
filipdevuanyeah but its not free15:03
xrogaanyou can't really have quality for free15:07
djphthe tutorials are free ...15:10
djphxrogaan: unless you count running it yourself "free" (I mean, I do - I'm already paying for the electrons and the internet service)15:10
xrogaan`<filipdevuan> yeah but its not free' < answering to that.15:12
djphxrogaan: my point was that I have "quality" (postfix + dovecot) email for "free(tm)"15:13
filipdevuani believe that i can make quality that i desire and its free15:13
filipdevuanwell anyway i think im gonna pay to it works under gnu icecat browser as well15:13
xrogaandjph: you do have to maintain your system, that's not worries free :P15:13
filipdevuanyeah well15:14
filipdevuanim just saying i dont wanna pay rich people for making stuff for me15:14
djphxrogaan: yeah, but it's par for course.15:16
djphfilipdevuan: well, I'm hardly "rich" - you can pay me :D15:16
filipdevuanfor what? ;D15:16
filipdevuanfor setting own e-mail server? :P15:16
djphwell, you could, if I sold that15:17
xrogaanyeah, right, rich people hosting emails.15:17
filipdevuanyeah thats true15:17
filipdevuanyeah i mean like billionairies and others15:17
xrogaanI believe you overestimate the potency of the email business.15:18
filipdevuanwell most people use gmail services or microsoft or yahoo and they're or multibillionaire corporates15:18
buZzi bet the guy who sold to microsoft, made more money of it, then any later reseller of email services15:18
filipdevuaniv searched for other email services but they all require payment if i wanna use it under pop/imap15:19
buZzfilipdevuan: normally ISPs have pop/imap/smtp for free for their users15:19
filipdevuanwhich ones lol iv registered to and its paid. another thing is i cant access protonmail from gnu icecat with libremjs15:20
filipdevuanim looking for nice simple and secure e-mail server that would run on e-mail client cuz i wanna receive and send e-mails from email client not from browser15:21
filipdevuani can of course use google for it, but i dont wanna google xD15:21
djphif it supports imap(s) and smtp(s), it'll work with any MUA that supports those15:26
filipdevuanyeah but iv noticed if theres a nice email service provider they require payment for imap/pop ;/15:28
KatolaZfilipdevuan: it's better you read about protonmail before joining15:28
KatolaZa thread from last week revealed that protonmail is just the good face of a company that sells emails for ads15:29
KatolaZother sources15:29
KatolaZhold on15:29
KatolaZoh sorry15:30
filipdevuanyeah i dont like this protonmail anyway15:30
KatolaZit was hackernews probably15:30
filipdevuanbut anyways im leaving protonmail asap and going to safe-mail.net15:30
filipdevuanwell im gonna have a read but protonmail for me is just temporary email anyway15:31
KatolaZcan't actually find the relevant link now15:32
filipdevuanwanna quit it as soon as i get access to nice pop/imap one, i think im probably gonna pay for safe-mail15:32
filipdevuanim gonna search for it thanks ;P15:32
xrogaanis it fake news?15:32
xormorHow does Richard Stallman regard systemd's architecture and adoption?15:34
KatolaZxrogaan: what?15:35
xrogaanKatolaZ: it's not because one website report something that it is automatically true. Like that time the EFF told everybody to stop using gnupg to encrypt emails because *some* mtu were buggy.15:35
xrogaanThey did, of course, suggested to people to use their "secure" app to send private message.15:36
KatolaZxrogaan: I agree about PGP15:36
KatolaZdisagree about protonmail15:36
KatolaZsince the thread was backed up by facts15:36
xrogaanA thread you cannot find, might I add :P15:36
KatolaZxrogaan: :D15:37
xormorI mostly care about if it works or if it does not. I have found Microsoft products, and Red Hat products inconvenient and I will use both Debian and Devuan from now on.15:37
KatolaZI will find it :)15:37
KatolaZxormor: systemd works, apparently...15:38
tom13i would go to a devuan meetup in Frankfurt15:40
tom13or nearby15:40
xrogaanI don't want to learn systemd. I want to be able to hack my machine without relying on stupid stuff like that. gconf is already pushing it for my tastes.15:40
KatolaZtom13: is there a devuan meetup in Frankfurt?15:42
tom13i don't know15:42
tom13you nearby?15:42
_stephen_What's this about protonmail?15:42
xrogaanThey rent machines to some dubious company.15:43
tom13we could get a table at restaurant with wifi, bring gadgets15:43
filipdevuanits some pretend to be secure company with gay name15:43
filipdevuanbut anyway r u germans??15:43
tom13i can show openpandora, droid4s with sailfish, n900s and hopefully soon pyra (maybe with devuan)15:43
KatolaZxrogaan: actually they rent machines from a dubious company...15:44
KatolaZwhich seems to be just collateral to protonmail15:44
KatolaZand whose main business seems to be data analytics and advertisement...15:45
KatolaZxrogaan: even more interesting
KatolaZ_stephen_: ^^^15:48
_stephen_I don't see anything conclusive in there that would damn them.15:50
_stephen_Also, why the hell are all the cool meetups outside the US?15:51
_stephen_Anyone going to HOPE in July?15:51
parazydfsmithred: Has  Refracta been rebased on Ascii?15:51
fsmithredparazyd, yeah, I have a beta up on my sourceforge site15:52
fsmithredand I will soon upload a no-dbus iso15:52
fsmithredalso ascii15:52
parazydfsmithred: What about an upgrade from jessie?15:53
parazydWould that work?15:53
fsmithredmostly works15:54
parazydAh sweet :)15:54
fsmithredthere is an issue I need to solve -15:54
filipdevuandamn so it looks like protonmail is lithuanian omg XD15:54
fsmithredin refracta ascii, new install or upgrade from jessie, synaptic and gparted start without asking for password15:54
xrogaanwho wants to go travel in the US while crazy carrot-man is at the head of the states?15:55
parazydfsmithred: Thanks :)15:56
* djph raises hand for a US trip15:57
fsmithredparazyd, I think any xfce upgrades that were installed without task-xfce-desktop will run into problems15:57
fsmithredbut they are mostly known and easily fixed by installing the right libraries15:58
KatolaZfsmithred: actually xfce might be fine, right?15:58
fsmithredwhen I get a chance to run through it all again, I'll post on dng for help15:58
KatolaZsince it is on consolekit in both jessie and ascii?15:58
fsmithredupgrades of refracta jessie have resulted in pkexec allowing synaptic and gparted to run without authentication15:59
fsmithredthat's been true since last summer, and it hasn't changed with the new polkit stuff15:59
fsmithredfor others, upgrade results in those packages not starting at all from menu or terminal (as synaptic-pkexec, for instance)16:00
fsmithredI'm just about ready to head out for the day. Will be back in around 6-8 hours.16:03
KatolaZok fsmithred16:04
KatolaZhave a nice one16:04
fsmithredif someone feels like installing refracta jessie and doing an upgrade to ascii, I'd be happy to have the company.16:04
KatolaZI'd do that one of these nights16:07
fsmithredthanks :)16:07
xrogaananybody knows how to properly reset mate?16:16
xrogaanthe wm crashing/not starting is driving me nuts.16:16
tom13mate was too buggy for me16:20
tom13have fun16:20
xrogaanI'll probably try to migrate to lightdm and get rid of mate/slim. I don't know which DE to use instead though (beside fluxbox).16:22
_stephen_Slim not working for you?16:23
_stephen_I started switching non devuan boxes to slim because it was easier to modify.16:24
xrogaanslim seems to be exclusive to xfce and mate. The other DE "requires" lightdm16:25
_stephen_You can't just toggle to it with f1?16:25
xrogaanI don't really understand why, some permission issue.16:25
_stephen_Or update the config to point at whatever session starts it?16:26
_stephen_Or put it in your .xinitrc file and tell slim to run that?16:26
KatolaZxrogaan: that's not true16:26
xrogaanI mean, if you try task-cinnamon-desktop, it'll try to install elogind and lightdm.16:26
KatolaZyou can still use slim/.consolekit with other DEs16:26
KatolaZonly, some of them (don't remember which) have glitches with session management16:27
KatolaZif you use slim/consolekit16:27
KatolaZthe task-*-desktop packages include ythe conf that is known witout problems16:28
_stephen_I like editing slim.conf so that login_cmd is set to run ~/.xinitrc via bash.  Then the user sets up .xinitrc to run whatever wm or de they want.16:28
xrogaanwell, I have an issue with console kit: Jun 11 20:16:36 Aasterinian dbus[2123]: [system] Failed to activate service 'org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit': timed out16:30
xrogaanevery time I boot, that line pops up. And I can't login before it actually times out.16:31
tom13have fluxbox here and it works just like my old tennis shoes do16:32
tom13yeah ok, need to edit menus sometimes16:33
tom13but it starts up with my terminals in the exact positions i want them16:33
xrogaanwho uses menu anyhow?16:33
_stephen_I have fvwm here, I don't think it needs any dbus stuff...16:33
tom13fbsetroot -solid black16:34
tom13sleep 1s16:34
tom13/usr/bin/urxvt -letsp 0 -geometry 100x31+0+0 -fn -gohu-gohufont-medium-r-normal--11-80-100-100-c-60-iso10646-1&16:34
tom13all x programs should accept -geometry params, imo16:34
_stephen_don't they all?16:34
tom13not all do16:34
xrogaanI believe the issue to be linked to /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90Consolekit16:34
tom13lxterm lets you specify size in characters, but not x,y offset.  iirc.16:35
xrogaanbecause I don't get why dbus is trying to launch stuff when nobody's logged in.16:36
_stephen_I don't really know what consolekit is for, so I can't help with the issue, but I guess you could change the timeout in there to at least log in sooner...16:36
tom13it was something they added to X to help manage logins/permissions?16:40
tom13i have a cloud of bees in my head16:40
tom13they are telling me to get another beer16:40
msiismdoes slim use elogind/libpam-elogind (in ascii)?17:32
KatolaZno msiism17:33
KatolaZit uses consolekit17:34
KatolaZbut it could also use elogind, apparently17:34
msiismKatolaZ: ok, and lightdm? (i can't find the list right now...)17:38
golinuxfilipdevuan: Try claws mail17:41
KatolaZmsiism: AFAIK lightdm is known to work perfectly with elogind17:42
KatolaZand to work "sometimes" with consolekit17:42
KatolaZbut I don't know much about that17:43
KatolaZyou might want to ask Irrwahn17:43
Wonkagot a 403 reply for - something new every day...17:59
KatolaZWonka: have you retried?18:01
KatolaZall the mirrors seem to be in place18:02
KatolaZnone of them gives a 40318:02
WonkaKatolaZ: still.18:06
msiismKatolaZ: i get the same result as Wonka18:12
KatolaZmsiism: tried now, it works18:13
KatolaZall the files are in place, and reachable18:14
msiismKatolaZ: ok, still getting 403.18:14
msiismWonka: where are you located (if i may ask)?18:15
KatolaZhold on18:15
Wonkamsiism: Germany18:16
Wonkato reproduce: $ curl -H 'Host:'
KatolaZWonka: it seem to depend on where you connect from18:18
KatolaZlet me investigate18:18
msiismWonka: i'm also located in germany.18:19
golinuxThere was a report of a 403 on onefang's mirror but iirc he has bandwidth limitations.18:19
KatolaZthey seem to have a problem in sync18:21
KatolaZwhich is very strange18:21
Wonkafamily coming home, will be back later... possibly hours later...18:22
KatolaZit has been temporarily removed from the pool18:22
KatolaZproblem identified18:30
tom_Why is Openssh and and MariaDB dependent on Libsystemd0 in ASCII?18:30
KatolaZtom_: ask the openssh and mariaDB developers....18:31
KatolaZin the case of openssh, sshd uses it to try to notify systemd that it has started18:31
KatolaZif systemd is pid118:31
tom_KatolaZ, i thought Devuan patched them to make it not dependent18:31
KatolaZI guess mariaDB does the same18:31
KatolaZit systemd is not running, the lib does nothing18:32
msiismKatolaZ: ok, you were faster... :)18:33
KatolaZtom_: we are working on that front as well18:33
tom_but i can't apt-get purge libsystemd0 without it removing mariadb and openssh18:33
KatolaZno tom_ you can't18:33
tom_Then why is ASCII stable?18:34
KatolaZtom_: what's your problem mate?18:34
tom_no offense, but this seems like the sort of thing your supposed to work out in testing18:34
msiismtom_: the forum post has the answers you'll need.18:34
KatolaZtom_: this is the sort of things you can help out with18:34
KatolaZI already said we are working in a more viable solution than forking all the packages that depend on libsystemd018:35
tom_KatolaZ, if libsystemd0 really does not do anything, could i craft a dummy libsystemd0 package that contains no files, just sates the package dependencies?18:36
KatolaZtom_: libsystemd just checks if systemd is running when called18:37
KatolaZif it's not it does nothing18:37
KatolaZif you don't believe that, please read the code18:37
tom_it's from Debian yes?18:37
KatolaZit is18:38
tom_so the source would be in packages.debian.org18:38
KatolaZjust apt-get source libsystemd018:38
tom_ok thanks18:39
tom_i'll audit the source18:39
KatolaZplease do18:39
tom_huh, sid already has a libsystemd-dummy18:42
tom13we also have apulse18:42
tom13don't forget glorious apulse18:42
tom_It's so bad that that apulse even needs to be a thing18:44
tom13someday we will find out why and how poettering accomplished this18:45
tom_i hope they get what's coming to them18:47
Achyllesscreenfetch gives me -> OS Unknown 2.0 ascii  :(   -> should be OS Devuan ascii18:55
tom_Achylles, rn lsb-release -a18:56
Achyllesdo you mean rm18:56
freemHello. Do anyone here already tryed brlcad, by luck?18:57
tom_i mean run18:58
tom_run lsb_release -a18:58
tom_Is that an alternative to FreeCAD freem ?19:00
f00b4r0hi, quick question: is there a specific kernel requirement for ASCII? I've dist-upgraded a working Jessie with custom 3.16.56 and now it doesn't boot. Seems like init won't start (booting with init=/bin/sh works). Thanks19:00
tom_it certainly looks interesting. I'll give that a try19:00
freemtom_, I'd say that FreeCAD is the alternative, since brlcad is dated from 1984.19:00
tom_Yeah, looking at their website they still maintain IRIX binaries19:01
freemfrom what I've seen of FreeCAD, it does not do too much, and tbh I can't find decent doc explaining how to do things. All docs seems to be messy, not always related to current version. So, I've searched for alternatives, yes. I found that FreeCAD may be youngest of the 3 FOSS CAD softwares I think might help me.19:02
tom_my problem with FreeCAD as well19:02
tom_As well as it relying on deprecated libraries, making appimage the only practical way to use it19:03
furrywolfmy experience is freecad has a zillion buttons, and claims to do a zillion things, but in reality, all the buttons do the exact same thing, which is segfault after you use more than about five of them.19:03
freembrlcad seems to need a lot of learning, though, but hey, the books (more than 1000 pages, IIRC) are free at least as in free beer, and well writen for the sample I've read.19:03
furrywolfI couldn't get freecad to run long enough to actually do anything19:04
freemtom_, about deprecated libs, brlcad is not even properly packaged, so.... but I don't really care, if it works.19:04
tom_what is brlcad's license. it just says 'open source'19:04
freemfurrywolf, I could not understand how the hell I am supposed to do something with freecad.19:04
freemtom_: from what I've read, a mix of GPL, LGPL and BSD (2 or 3, dunno).19:05
furrywolffreem:  design a part as 2d extrusions and join them together...  but it Just Doesn't Work.  at least when I tried it.19:05
tom_now FreeCAD on the other hand is great. I've made many things with it and even went to manufacturing. But i'm not sure if it can do 3d19:05
freembrlcad claims to have more than 400 tools, and to follow unix philosophy, too.19:06
tom_unix philosophy 3d cad19:06
freemI've tryed openscad too, but it's not made to create assembles. Sadly.19:06
tom_have you tried FreeCAD?19:07
furrywolftom_:  you actually managed to create an assembly of parts without it segfaulting?  I couldn't get freecad to function beyond a basic 2d sketch, and even that usually crashed.19:07
tom_furrywolf, oh my bad, i meant LibreCAD19:07
KatolaZI have used qcad in the past for simple 2d stuff19:07
freemtom_, I did, but the interface is a mess, and cant' find decent doc.19:08
KatolaZbut I am not a cad user :)19:08
furrywolftom_:  ah19:08
tom_LibreCAD I've actually used in prod19:08
furrywolflibrecad, if I remember right, worked, but just didn't do a single thing I needed it to do.  :P19:08
tom_and I love LibreCAD, but i don't think it can handle 3d19:08
KatolaZI think librecad == qcad these days, right?19:08
tom_2d only19:08
freemAh, libreCAD seems to only do 2d drawings. GOod enough for many things I guess, but not tried.19:08
freemseems to be designed to build electronic cards, or stuff around that?19:08
furrywolffreecad has a really impressive feature list, but...  doesn't work.  it may, in fact, be the buggiest program I've ever used.  there is some serious design philosophy error going on, as nothing that buggy should ever be be having new features added without the bugs being fixed.19:09
f00b4r0help anyone?19:11
tom_freem, i've made replacement tractor parts, industrial control panels, and box cutters with LibreCAD19:11
furrywolf"hey, our program can't stay running for more than five minutes...  let's ignore that and keep working on new features that no one will actually be able to use because it'll crash before they get their part to needing them!"19:11
tom_How do i install a .deb file with dependency resolution? i normally would use dpkg -i19:12
freemf00b4r0 maybe give more deatils on your error?19:12
f00b4r0freem: kernel hangs at what seems to be init handover19:12
freemtom_: I do dpkg -i, read the lacking stuff, and use apt-get to install those.19:12
f00b4r0apt-get -f install should work19:13
furrywolftom_:  have you found any working CAM software?19:13
tom_furrywolf, I've just been using whatever is on the cutting machine. Which in this case has commonly been SheetCAM PRO19:14
f00b4r0freem: I'd be happy to provide more info but so far I haven't been able to track down the problem. Sysrq shows no stuck task, the boot process just stops after mounting root19:14
tom_I don't think it's open source but it seems to accept my .dxf files fine.19:14
furrywolfthe only program I've yet to have generate a working toolpath is, sadly, brlcad.19:14
furrywolfactually, it wasn't brlcad.  what's the other really old one?  heh19:15
tom_I can't seem to install brlcad. it has a dependency on some version of libpng that does not exist19:16
furrywolfpycam took literal days to generate broken toolpaths19:17
f00b4r0this is a standalone kernel (no initramfs)19:18
freemf00b4r0: after mounting root, the kernel should start the init system, which is one of the major things Devuan changes. Also, you said using init=/bin/sh works, so I'd check that the init system is installed correctly.19:19
f00b4r0how do I check that? I dist-upgraded from 1.0, with no error (this is a fairly minimal system)19:19
freemtom_, yep, you can find that lib in debian's repos, for stable or old stable.19:20
tom_only i can't freem19:20
freemf00b4r0 hard to say. Both sysVinit and systemd use the same binary name (stupid, imho) instead of having their real names eventually symlinked to /sbin/init. So, I'd say, try to remove from the init=/bin/sh the init system completely (purge, in fact), and then, install it anew. Might work.19:21
freemtom_ why?19:21
ffurrywol<furrywolf> sheetcam seems to be closed-source, and not suitable for my application...  as the name suggests, it's for sheet work, while I'm running a 4-axis mill.  :)19:21
ffurrywol<furrywolf> heekscad is the only program I've ever been able to get a working toolpath out of...  and it's pretty painful to use.19:21
ffurrywol<furrywolf> haven't used it in a while.  kinda gave up on cad...19:21
tom_freem, It's not there19:22
freemwhat is not there?19:22
freemtom_ here you are
freemI'm using this one. Yes, it's dirty, I know, but it's a workaround. If I am successful in trying to use brlcad to do something, I will have some will to rework the package.19:24
furrywolfthe dearth of working open-source cad has led me to often contemplate writing my own...  but I really just don't have the time to do that.19:24
tom_that's jessie19:24
freemThere is no death there furry. Just not that many softwares, and I only know 2 (for 3D) that might be usable.19:24
freemtom_ is it a problem? libpng12 only depends on libc, IIRC.19:25
furrywolfdeaRth.  with an r.  :)19:25
tom_isn't that frakendebianing though?19:25
freemhum... I thought it was a typo, so, what does mean dearth?19:25
Akulidid you guys hear about
furrywolfdearth, noun, 1. an inadequate supply; scarcity; lack:19:25
tom_installing jessie packages on stretch or ascii19:25
freemtom_: sure, it is, until someone recompile and repackage to correct that. Not hard to do, but hey, I don't wan't to work on a soft I'm not able to use ^^19:26
freemty furrywolf19:26
furrywolffreem:  basically, it's a word that means exactly what you said.  lol19:26
freemnow, it may be frankendebianning, but, the fact is, that lib is nicely packaged, and fixing brlcad would fix that. Or, you can just install a Jessie, too.19:27
tom_looks on purpose Akuli19:27
furrywolfI've had good luck frankendevuaning by installing older packages.  it's installing newer ones that tends to lead to issues...19:28
freemwhich is something I might have to do, maybe in a more classic system I would not see the small (but annoying) issues I do19:29
tom_that's seems trivial19:30
* furrywolf should remember to avoid using obscure english words on irc, given the internationality of irc.19:30
tom_i could probably do that in my spare time and sumbit my package to devuan19:31
freemI tinkered too much with deb packages and apt-pinning to really worry at frankendebianing. Aptitude is slow when stuff are broken, but allows a really precise operation that allows to fix most stuff. If it can't, dpkg can, except if you played with really, really important packages.19:31
freemno furrywolf, it's good, it allows people to learn more.19:31
tom_where is the documentation for becoming a DevuanDev?19:31
tom_Devving Devuan19:31
tom13it is like mad machician humphreys castle19:32
furrywolffreem:  I've often managed to get debian to the point where tools simply refuse to function.19:32
tom13you cannot get in unless you figure-out the way in, tom_19:32
freemfurrywolf, that's impressive, I only did that a few times. In the harshest times, I even had to untar packages by hand and copy files to their rightful locations. Some successes, even if I must admit I was not happy to do so.19:33
tom_I ounce had to cross-compile python3 and get it working in a centos 5 webhost shell account19:34
freemSo, back to CAD softwares, only brlcad, freecad, openscad and librecad known by name around?19:34
freemin the FOSS ones I mean19:34
tom_and i didn't have permission to run chroot either19:34
tom_was a ton of obscene LDPRELOADs19:34
furrywolffreem:  I'm good at breaking things.  :)19:34
furrywolffreem:  heekscad/heekscnc _does work_.  it's just painful.19:35
furrywolfheeks is the only thing I've managed to design a part in and get a working toolpath out of19:35
freemI'm new to CAD. What is a toolpath?19:36
furrywolfa toolpath is instructions for a machine to actually make the part.  it could be how to move a plasma torch to cut a part from sheetmetal, or how to move an endmill to carve an object from a billet on a milling machine, for example.19:37
tom13you need to mortgage your house to AutoDesk19:37
furrywolfif you're not going to be making the parts yourself, you might not need toolpath generation.19:37
freemI see19:37
tom_you mean the gcode19:38
tom_something to generate the gcode19:38
furrywolfmaking a toolpath is a function of CAM, computer aided manufacturing.  if you're going to be just making drawings, not running machines, you probably don't need it.19:38
furrywolftom_:  yes, but if someone doesn't know what a toolpath is, I'm not going to give an explanation that depends on knowing what gcode is.  :)19:39
freemI first wan't to learn CAD softwares for myself, probably will wan't to print pieces at least. But more advanced stuff would help a lot at work, even if I'm not myself in mechanic engineering.19:39
furrywolffor CAD/CAM help, #linuxcnc can be very good.  the channel is specifically for the linuxcnc program, but general cad/cam is considered on-topic.19:40
furrywolfI got sick of a certain couple people there, so stopped hanging out there, but there are helpful people in the channel.19:41
freemty for info19:41
furrywolflinuxcnc is a program for controlling machines, not a cad or cam program, so you're not going to need it for a while.19:42
furrywolflinuxcnc is the bit of software that takes your toolpath and controls the hardware based on it.19:42
furrywolfbbl...  it's almost 11am and I'm still wearing almost nothing but fur...  time to pretend I'm functional and get my day started.  I hate being sick.  bleh.19:43
freemhum... I'm looking at brlcad's dependencies, and there is nothing related to fonts and dialog boxes, except for a direct dependency on libx11 and libxi6... maybe X11 itself can provide such features?19:45
freemis motif embedded in X11?19:46
Achyllestom_, lsb_release -a gives me Devuan20:34
Achyllesscreenfetch does not support Devuan yet. So, I have uninstalled it and installed neofetch and it gives me a nice report including Devuan logo :)20:35
r00toboAchylles: always use neofetch it's better20:37
AchyllesNow I have my Devuan running stumpwm and it is doing greatly ->
horsemasterHi guys!21:12
horsemasterJust upgraded devuan jessie -> devuan ascii21:12
horsemasterAnd gpg was upgraded, and now my password isn't accepted by pinentry21:12
horsemasteranyone experienced anything similar?21:13
tom13no-one i touch with the information remains happy21:30
freemhorsemaster this may be because between jessie and ascii, one or more crypt methods where deprecated.21:34
freemwhich does not mean I did experiment that, though. It's just a guess made without the exact error message.21:34
freemAlso, maybe there is something about that in the changelog. Again, I did not checked, but did you?21:35
horsemasterfreem: I found
horsemasterAnd I have actually removed the secret master key, so I must read on how to accomplish that hardening afterwards.21:36
freemhorsemaster, so, are you trying to start using gpg stuff to learn, or do you understand how to use it and had problems caused by the update you did between 2 major versions of Devuan?21:38
horsemasterfreem: I have been using gpg since 1½ years21:38
horsemasterupgrade from gpg1 -> gpg2 caused my problem21:38
freemGood, because I have not used gpg a lot (using it a bit for fun at work, sure, but, can't say it's useful since I'm alone doing that for signing commits and mails). But I've kept an eye from far on upgrades, and I think your problem is that certain methods were marked deprecated.21:40
freemThat was my original idea, which seems confirmed by "upgrade from gpg1 -> gpg2 caused my problem"21:41
freemI would guess that you created weak keys through gpg1, and that while moving from v1 to v2, the methods and/or number of key's bits you used where broken by someone, and so, considered harmful. So, the software says it's not safe.21:43
freemNow, the question is, do you need to keep access to things encrypted with previous version?21:43
horsemasteryes, I use gpg to encrypt passwords for use in 'pass'21:45
freemis it gpg, or gnupg you use?21:45
horsemasterThe change seem to be that you need the secret master-key, which you could delete in gpg1 to make a certain install harder (no secret master key, no way to sign others keys, but using encryption and signing subkeys made it possible for other uses).21:46
freemgood, it's the thing I have a (very little) experience with. I doubt I can help you more than asking questions that might trigger a good idea into your or someone else's mind however.21:48
freemso, if I understand correctly, between gnupg1 and gnupg2, somehow, the need of the masterkey was added to decipher something enciphered with a child key?21:49
freemthis sounds strange to me.21:49
horsemasterfreem: yes. Or rather, in gpg1, you could remove the master key and use subkeys for encryption/decryption and signing.21:51
horsemasterin gpg2 you need the secret master key, and you can make it more secure some other way I still haven't read up on21:52
freemAnd gnupg2 refuses you to decipher something enciphered with a child key if you do not have the master key?21:54
horsemasterfreem: seems so22:01
freemany error message? I would be surprise if there is no compat mode22:06
horsemasterThe error message is "no secret key found".22:10
horsemasterI haven't researched a compatability mode. That would be equivalent to a "downgrade attack", so I don't think there is any22:10
horsemastertime for sleep.22:18
horsemasternightie nightie (I am also known as "Hestben" idling on my server, but I couldn't ssh without my passwords in pass).22:19
aitortalking about CAD software... better alternatives to AutoDesk are (i'm talking only about software compatible with the dominant .dwg format) BricsCAD or DraftSight22:27
aitorneither of them are free22:27
aitorthe first one must be paid (but with significantly lower prices comparing with AutoDesk, and including technical support), and the second one offers a gratuite 2D version (as far as i know)22:34
freemaitor, interesting.22:35
aitorfreem: time to dinner, be back later :)22:36
WonkaKatolaZ: thanks22:44
aitoranother quote: BricsCAD is compatible with AutoLISP (AutoDesk's own version of the LISP language, used in parametrized drawing)22:47
nik_Hi, I try to run devuan(dom0) with the xen hypervisor22:49
nik_It's a fresh install of Ascii22:49
nik_but it doesn't load22:49
nik_does anyone know where i should look for problems?22:49
freemnik_, what do you mean, it does not load?22:50
nik_i only see 5 lines22:50
nik_load xen kernel22:50
nik_warn: no console will be available to OS22:51
nik_load linux kernel22:51
nik_and finally22:51
nik_load init ramdisk or something22:51
nik_and then it stops22:51
freemdom0 is the virtual machine that allows to manage other VMs, am I right? Can you provide it a different init for a try, like /bin/sh?22:53
nik_you mean by specifying those options at boottime22:54
nik_(you're right about dom0)22:54
freemyep, I meant that22:55
nik_what's the purpose of a different init?22:56
freemusing /bin/sh as init would allow to determine if the problem is before or after linux tries to run /sbin/init22:57
freemit's only to reduce the search sphere22:57
nik_so i would get a shell then before /sbin/init?22:58
freemexact. This can also allow to bypass the login phase, when you forgot root password22:59
nik_:) good to know (yes i'm newbie)23:00
nik_In which logs would i then best look23:00
freemthat "flaw" can be fixed by properly setting the boot manager, though, but, I think it's too useful and not known enough to fix it, considering people needs physical access to computer anyway23:00
freemwhat do you mean, in which log?23:01
nik_after i run /bin/sh23:02
nik_i run /sbin/init?23:02
nik_if it hangs like before23:02
nik_where should i find info of what it did23:02
freemI'll try to do it quick, but it might be a bit long and complicated anyway.23:04
freem1st, the computer (virtual or not) runs a firmware. That firmware gives the control to a program named a "boot manager" (can be lilo, grub, syslinux, and a lot more), that will then give control to a system.23:06
freemThat system can be either a disk image that contains everything needed for next steps, or directly a kernel. Nowadays, from what I understand (I'm not an expert), distros uses a disk image.23:07
freemAnyway, at a point, a kernel is loaded, and it must be able to load drivers needed to prepare the base system before starting the 1st processus, which is tradiionally /sbin/init.23:08
freemYou can provide to linux a different PID1 filename though, with the command line argument "init=foobar" foobar being the absolute path of the init binary on the root partition.23:09
freemIn theory, the init system should start all daemons, and mount all remaining partitions, eventually remounting root partition to make it writable. This happens with real init systems.23:10
freemNot if you force the kernel to use /bin/sh, which is just a shell, and so, gives you a system that can't work properly before you do things by hand23:11
freemI hope I did not say too many wrong things and you understood the global way current systems boot23:11
nik_ok, so i would also need to know the original init parameters that i replaced23:12
nik_because after i run the shell, i need to be able to continue the system23:13
freemexact, but then, depending on your partitionning scheme, you should be able to read /etc/fstab23:13
freemso, you should be able to just mount things with a good old "mount -a"23:14
nik_yes, but, now i have 2 options at boot time23:15
nik_to boot the normal kernel or to boot the kernel with the xen hypervisor23:15
nik_and the normal kernel works23:16
nik_xen is 4.8 and linux is 4.923:17
freemdo you load the same modules in the normal kernel and the xen kernel?23:18
nik_i don't know23:20
nik_I installed the xen system via aptitude23:20
nik_i didn't modify configs or such23:20
freemto know the list of modules loaded, there is the command lsmod23:21
freemI never tried that when using /bin/sh as init system though23:21
nik_Ok, thanks. I have a starting point now.23:22
nik_I'll try it tomorrow23:22
crimson_kingHey, is uswsusp used for hibernation?23:22

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