freenode/#devuan/ Sunday, 2018-06-24

* DocScrutinizer05 reads manpages about locale and headdesks on rading >>localectl may be used to query and change the system locale and keyboard layout settings. It communicates with systemd-localed(8)...<<00:47
altker128Hi guys.  I'm a long time Debian user , but not thrilled with systemd.  However there are a lot of .DEBs out there for Debian, curious if I should expect compatability issues if I use Devuan04:27
unixman_homeUse Devuan with Devuan repositories, no problem. Random .deb packages, no clue.04:30
squeakypancakesIf you need extra software flatpak works regardless of init system04:35
ChuangTzuDevuan is a great drop in replacement for Debian.04:38
ChuangTzuWhat .debs do you need that are not in the repos?04:39
altker128ChuangTzu: It comes up randomly, I don't have a specific example.  But, Zulip for example, or SoGO (the groupware software)04:40
ChuangTzuif the dependencies are in the Devuan repos and its not systemd required then it should work fine04:40
altker128squeakypancakes: flatpak I'm guessing basically uses lxc on the backend04:40
ChuangTzuof course, once you start installing outside the repos YMMV04:41
squeakypancakesflatpak uses ostree05:46
golinuxflatpak is bloated poo05:47
zlgJust wanted to congratulate you guys on the second big release. I've watched from the sidelines but have considered installing Devuan on some older hardware I just got ahold of. :)06:20
zlgInit freedom is as important as any other software freedom!06:20
squeakypancakesunless youre running on a <20gb drive you wont notice the space that flatpak takes up and it deltas the updates to reduce bandwidth06:23
golinuxsqueakypancakes: That sort of rationale is one thing that's changing the the Linux landscape (and not for the better) these days.07:45
squeakypancakesI fail to see how the option of alowing smaller dev teams to target all of linux instead of one distro or having every distro repackage the app is bad.07:51
golinuxSameness is never a good thing08:15
* amarsh04 is using the non-free Discord client - the Ubuntu 64 bit deb runs fine under Devuan once the dependencies are installed10:46
buZzi finally moved to ascii-backports' nvidia-driver10:58
buZzwtf man , ~30% higher score in glmark210:58
ChankuHey congrats on ASCII becoming stable!10:58
stuttgartFlatpak/snap aren't the solution but I still think package management has to be unified. Distros don't really do anything different from each other when it comes to packaging, the main difference is on binary vs source-based distros and there's nothing in the way of making a package manager capable of both.11:24
stuttgartwith the way it currently is distros are doing the same work independently and wasting everyone's time11:26
ChankuNot necessarily. A unified system would make things like devuan a bit harder.11:26
ChankuAlthough I will note that devuan itself does use Debian packages 99% of the time, recompiling only what needs to be done.11:27
stuttgartI'm saying most/all linux distros could use sharing the same packaging system, they could still make their own repos with their own patches if so desired.11:28
KatolaZstuttgart: flatpak/snap are a windows-style solution11:28
ChankuAddititionally, you force a specific view of the filesystem as well11:28
KatolaZship the package + the kitchen sink11:28
KatolaZit is guaranteed to work11:29
ChankuDistros like NixOS certianly wouldn't get anything from a universal system.11:29
KatolaZit also works on windows, after all....11:29
ChankuEspecially because their FS layout is different, and they have entirely different requirements from other Distros11:29
KatolaZ(unless it gets quite messy if you have several different versions of anything)11:29
ChankuFurther it would additionally impose certain systems onto a distro. Which means that a single person at a single distro can impose things like systemd onto everyone.11:30
ChankuAdditionally, I dont' necessarily think unifiying package manage is a good, or really desired, solution in the end.11:31
Chankuand see ya KatolaZ11:32
ChankuI don't view the several different package managers as being necessarily a bad thing. People will generally chose what they end up liking.11:33
KatolaZChanku: well, unless you are a big corp who wants to capitalize its linux user base11:49
KatolaZand conquer them all :)11:49
buZzstuttgart: i like autoconf11:51
buZzsomeone whip me up a distro that uses just all autoconf/autotools as package management11:51
buZzlike slackware, but worse11:51
KatolaZI think a package manager is very useful11:54
KatolaZI simply dislike anything that presents itself as "The One True Way"11:55
KatolaZespecialli if such "way" is a good way to bloat your system more11:55
buZzjust do rm -fr / every now and then to remove all the french files11:56
msiismKatolaZ: the thing with the sources.list sounds like a bug.14:53
pl43cTying to boot into the ascii netinstall with efi15:40
pl43cbut after selecting graphical install or install it just makes the boot selection disappear with the devuan art still there and hang15:40
pl43cI have an nvidia card so I tried adding nomodesetting but it didn't do anything15:40
pl43cis the efi installer bugged or is there something I have to do15:41
pl43cthis is also under qemu kvm15:41
freemHello. I've got problems using cdebootstrap to bootstrap a devuan system. It says it can't validate the release, with this line: cdebootstrap --flavour=minimal /sandbox ascii
freemthis is actually a (virtual) system on which I did the migration from debian, and reinstalled all packages after having removed /var/cache/apt/archives/*15:48
freemit seems that debootstrap, on the other hand, works. I'll play with this one for now, but I'll to check exactly what it considers as a minimal base...15:51
fsmithredpl43c, have you booted other efi isos in qemu?15:53
grillonhi there, I would like to launch remote x app without ssh forwarding but I always have can't open display17:48
KatolaZgrillon: how can you laungh a remote X app without ssh forwarding?17:49
KatolaZ(I mean, you can, but normally X11 won't listen on tcp connections by default)17:49
grillonI want my X server to listen17:50
grillonI took off -nolisten tcp17:50
KatolaZgrillon: shake it17:50
furrywolfxhost +whatever, where whatever is the proper mask you need to add to allow the connections17:51
grillonI did xhost+ too17:51
grillonso normaly theres no auth17:51
furrywolfthen make sure the DISPLAY variable is appropriately set17:52
grillonmy DISPLAY is ok17:52
grillonI have read port 6000 should be listening it's not17:52
furrywolfif your xhost is ok, and your display is ok, it's obviously working fine, so there's nothing to ask about.  :P17:52
grillonit's not ok17:53
grillonon which port X should listen?17:53
grillonI have read it :
grillonand launch X manually to be sure to avoid authentication but it still does not work17:54
grillonas X is not listening outside of localhost17:55
furrywolfjust for curiosity, what use case do you have where you need remote X, but don't want it over ssh?17:56
grillonI want it to be fast. I want to do a private network cluster and use each machine for different task17:57
grillonall these machines would use the same display17:57
grillonI think about vlan for that but. To start simple I have a simple network for my fist iteration17:57
furrywolfhave you tried -listen tcp?17:58
grillonlet's try :p17:58
grillonit works!18:01
furrywolfyay!  :)18:01
furrywolfso it's not just a default command line option now, it's apparantly default somewhere in the code too.18:01
grillonevery where I have seen take off -nolisten tcp18:01
grillonthank you furrywolf!!!18:01
grillonseems so18:01
furrywolfwhich means somewhere changed default behavior in a way that breaks things, and probably didn't tell anyone...  which is, sadly, all too common.18:02
furrywolfheh, googling finds a few bugs filed about this, the first one I checked was closed WONTFIX.18:04
grillonwhat is this wontfix bug18:04
furrywolfthat the default behavior of xorg changed18:04
furrywolflooks like xorg 1.17 changed from listening on tcp by default to not listening by default.18:05
furrywolf  redhat released a patched version to restore the old behavior due to bug reports18:06
furrywolfhowever, realisticly, not listening on tcp is probably a sane default these days...  I haven't seen non-ssh remote X in a very long time.18:08
furrywolfand X is not known for its security.18:08
furrywolfprobably better to have it not listening anywhere18:08
grillonI think you're right. that's why I want to use it on a private network18:09
grillonif it's not significantly faster I'll give up18:09
furrywolfheh, I remember waaaaaaay back when, in a lab of sun boxes, the fun of opening things on other people's xservers...  :P18:09
grillonseems the problem of nolisten tcp is every where now I have the problem with lxdm :(18:11
grillonthe default is launching X with nolisten and it seems it cannot be overriden18:12
grillona default behaviour is a thing but why I'm forced :(18:12
furrywolfyou can also set it in the xorg.conf somewhere, which will work if the dm simply isn't specifying anything and leaving x to use its default, but probably won't override if the dm is explicitly adding it to the command line.18:13
furrywolfif your dm is sticking stuff on the xorg command line and not letting you change it, that's a bug in the dm.18:13
grillonsorry it's ok, it was an old bug corrected :p18:15
furrywolfin that case, glad to help.  :)18:20
grillonthank you furrywolf18:21
msiism if anyone has ideas on this, i'd be happy to hear them.18:21
grillonnow I have a problem with auth, I have transferer my .Xauthority file to the xclient machine but I still have can't open display :(18:22
grillonit work when I desactivate auth18:22
furrywolfcan't help there...  I've never played with X's auth stuff18:24
freemmsiism, what do you have in /etc/rc0.d ?18:37
xrogaanafter an aptitude update, we sometimes get this: Status: 77133 (+9) new. Is there a way to know what package are new?18:38
freemxrogaan, you can just start aptitude  without option, it's send you to the ncurses interface, which shows which ones are new.18:38
freemI think you might also use the search option for that, but I don't know for sure since I use aptitude on commandline very rarely.18:39
msiismfreem: quite some stuff. shall i paste that somewhere?18:44
freemmsiism, is there is a file named SXXntp, or something like this? (XX being a number)18:44
xrogaanaptitude shows all non installed packaged as "new"18:45
msiismfreem: no, there isn't. those files all start with K on my system.18:45
freemxrogaan, did you changed your sources.list recently?18:45
xrogaani'm interested in the +918:46
freemmsiism, I guess it would have been too easy...18:46
freemxrogaan, usually, I ask aptitude to forgot which packages are new, which is something that can be configured to be made automatically. You may have more luck with "aptitude search '~N'", but I think it will show you the same list as the ncurses interface.18:48
xrogaanalright, marked as not new18:49
unixman_homeTo follow-up to X over ssh being "slow". I don't see "slow" when it is on a local LAN. It is fast enough that I have no complaints. No remote X via SSH over ADSL, yeah, that can be a bit slow.19:03
unixman_homes/No remote/Now remote/19:04
furrywolfI did vnc over dialup once...19:04
unixman_homefurrywolf, you have my sympathy!19:05
freemimagine what it would be nowadays, with all the fancy graphics :D19:05
unixman_homeWhat are these "fancy graphics" of which you speak? :P19:05
* furrywolf doesn't like excessive graphics19:06
unixman_homeIn my world "fancy graphics" is Xfce instead of fluxbox. :)19:06
freemthe stuff most users use, root window decorations, rounded borders, stuff like this19:06
furrywolfgod, my android phone...  I FUCKING HATE ANIMATION.  every single god damn fucking thing fades, slides, or otherwise wastes time while you wait for it to do something you don't want it to do.19:06
freembut I think my i3 and terminals would be perfectly fine.19:07
unixman_homefreem, anyone trying to run that crap over a network connection should be whipped. :)19:07
furrywolfI do not want anything to fade, slide, expand, or do any other effect.  just do what I tell it to do, as quickly as it can.19:07
freemforgot about smartphones then, furrywolf.19:07
furrywolfoh look!  we have a nice fast cpu!  let's intentionally add a 1-second delay between everything the user can do by animating what the user just tried to do!19:08
furrywolfthat way we can make the nice fancy cpu even slower than old things!19:08
unixman_homeHmm, maybe we can discuss phones in #debianfork. Before the IRC gods become angry with us. ;)19:09
furrywolfyou mean the irc goddess?  :P19:10
unixman_homeWell, yeh. :)19:10
pl43cfsmithred: yeah I boot windows freebsd and another linux distro with efi19:14
pl43cthe netinstall medium just isn't working19:14
pl43cchecked the shasum and it matches19:14
pl43cgot it over https so I'm not sure that was needed19:15
freemhum... any idea how dpkg-reconfigure console-data would not persist after reboot?19:15
fsmithredpl43c, I'll try it19:21
pl43cnot sure if the nvidia card I passthrough is causing the issue19:21
pl43cI doubt it as debian doesn't ship the nonfree drivers19:22
pl43cand the nonfree drivers don't display anything until X loads under kvm19:23
fsmithredso far, all I'm seeing is a broken boot screen19:24
fsmithredah, I hit ENTER and the installer started19:24
pl43cso press enter twice?19:24
fsmithredjust once19:25
fsmithredI'm not using the exact same iso as you.19:26
pl43cI'm using devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso19:26
pl43cwhich one are you using19:26
fsmithredrc0 from a couple days before the release19:27
fsmithreddownloading now19:27
fsmithred10 minutes19:27
filipdevuanis devuan GNU free?19:45
msiismfilipdevuan: it's not free of GNU, if that's what you mean.19:45
xrogaanno gnu were killed in the making of devuan19:46
msiismfilipdevuan: but you probably want to know of it's 100% free according to GNU/FSF standards. no, it's not.19:46
filipdevuanoh okay19:46
filipdevuanok thanx :)19:47
msiismfilipdevuan: but the issue is being discussed.19:47
msiismdevuan-dev mailing list19:47
msiismyou should be able to view the archive online.19:48
fsmithredwe have a blob-free kernel, same (exactly) as debian19:48
fsmithredbut we don't hide non-free from you or prevent you from using it19:48
filipdevuanso gnu/fsf standards OS's prevent you from using non free software?19:48
freemthe problem is explained by the FSF here: (search for Debian, the Devuan's situation is probably the same)19:48
fsmithredlibre kernel prevents use of non-free firmware19:49
fsmithredthat's not required for fsf approval, but I think the fact that we tell you where the non-free repo is might disqualify us19:49
filipdevuanok right19:53
fsmithredpl43c, official netinstall iso works, too. I did notice that it doesn't boot if I do it over ssh.19:54
freemfilipdevuan, also, some stuff produced by the FSF are not considered free by Debian, and so probably Devuan (like, gdb's documentation IIRC). So, basically, Debian's point of view and FSF's are not 100% compatible.19:56
msiismfilipdevuan: also, including non-free wifi drivers because they may be needed to install on some hardware, is against the GNUish notion of freedom.19:56
pl43cfsmithred: odd wonder why it's not working for me19:56
fsmithredqemu-system-x86_64 -enable-kvm -bios /usr/share/ovmf/OVMF.fd -m 512 -cdrom devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso -soundhw hda -smp cores=2,threads=219:57
pl43cfsmithred: it works with a spice server20:02
pl43cand removing the nvida20:02
filipdevuani also wonder whats exactly systemd, i just wonder if its 100% true that there are open processes in background that track your activity. i know that probably theres ME in my processor however i can't help it20:02
pl43cguess I'll add the nvidia back in after the install20:02
fsmithredok, I guess that makes sense - nvidia is good for black screen20:02
pl43cyeah I had discovered this not too long ago20:03
pl43cdidn't know certain versions of nouveau didn't produce output at all under kvm lol20:03
msiismfilipdevuan: "As it turns out, most people don’t even know what systemd is. I develop  uselessd, and I don’t either, really. At least, I cannot think of a  concise explanation that properly conveys systemd’s scope." ( :D20:04
freemfilipdevuan, systemd do have processes in background to know if it have to start, stop, restart, etc a daemon, but I really doubt it spies user's activity to send it anywhere.20:05
freemanyway, there is way simpler ways to spie on someone using traditional linux desktop distributions: ask stuff to Xorg.20:06
filipdevuani remember i used fedora for few days and i enjoyed however i havent enjoyed view of some tracker processes like tracker.miner etc. i was like what the heck is tracker.miner or other trackers20:06
freemI doubt fedora installs crypto miners, really. I'd say you installed something nasty, that did it. Or clicked on the wrong website.20:07
msiismfilipdevuan: there are still some trackers to enjoy in Devuan, e.g., milkytracker, goattracker or schism. (no, it's not a joke, even though it is, kind of.)20:08
filipdevuanfreem i am not sure but you may be right20:13
filipdevuanoh god those damn trackers ;P20:13
xrogaanthe GNU philosophy is nice on paper. But in effect I want to be able to access my stuff without needing to hack my machine.20:17
xrogaanso I'll use the non-free firmware.20:19
filipdevuani really like gnome desktop and during devuan installation i can't really choose it20:19
freemok, so, dpkg-reconfigure console-data does it's job, but it seems something should add "loadkeys /etc/console/boottime.kmap.gz" somewhere. I probably am forgetting something trivial...20:19
msiismfilipdevuan: that's because it's so tightly coupled with systemd.20:20
freemfilipdevuan, IIRC it's possible, but I tend to only go expert mode. Maybe the question is not enabled in the mode you used.20:20
filipdevuanoh damn20:21
xrogaanyeah, gnome forces systemd. It's silly and a reason why systemd is bad.20:21
filipdevuanyeah ubuntu or fedora environments were always like exotic and nice to me20:21
freemmsiism, are you sure gnome depends on systemd? I doubt it, I'm almost certain to have seen it in void or in some *BSD systems, which are *not* using systemd.20:21
msiismfreem: then these distros apparently bothered rebuilding the whole thing.20:22
xrogaanfilipdevuan: if you want to read more
freemwould make sense to rebuild. But if a simple compilation option have to be provided, we can't honestly say that gnome depends on systemd, right?20:23
freemmaybe the Debian's build, maybe the fedora's build, but not the project itself.20:23
freemI'm seeing a "task-gnome-desktop" in aptitude here.20:24
msiismfreem: you could try it. i've been told it doesn't work.20:25
freemI don't really gnome, so I won't try it, but filipdevuan can probably install it20:25
freemthanks, but I'm perfectly happy with my i3 :)20:25
xrogaangnome is being developed with systemd in mind.20:26
msiismapt-rdepends says it depends on libpam-systemd20:26
xrogaanwhole reason this exists:
msiismxrogaan: ok, that's a neat listing20:28
msiismalso quite funny20:28
filipdevuangoddamn why nice gnome has to be dodgy systemd20:29
freeminteresting readings20:29
msiismfilipdevuan: maybe gnome is not so nice after all.20:29
filipdevuanwell menu bar reminds me of windows :(20:30
xrogaanwell, you know ...
msiismfilipdevuan: well, xp and 95 weren't so bad, as far as the gui goes, were they? 95 even serves as an orientation for some more or less prominent window managers in the linux/unix sphere.20:31
freemfilipdevuan,  which windows?20:31
freembtw, if I had to work anew with a stacking window manager, I'll go for lxde or lxqt, not gnome20:32
msiismfreem: the window manager of lxde is called openbox (i just always have to say that.)20:33
msiismand it's not actually "part of" lxde in a strict sense.20:34
filipdevuan98 and win 1020:35
filipdevuani loved windows xp to be fair :(20:35
filipdevuanso many nice stuff were created for windows xp20:35
freemthen I think you should take a look at simpler DEs than gnome.20:36
msiismapropos window managers: here's the canoncial list: also has a good sense of humor to it, though i can't say if it's intentional.20:36
filipdevuani wish people on various website stopped posting youtube videos. oh i get on a website about some linux distro. contact me: How to install: *youtube video* while google is my number 1 in my "i avoid" list :P20:49
xrogaanwow, lxde looks super old21:00
xrogaanit is ugly.21:02
feeee3all: hello21:06
feeee3can anyone help with cuda toolkit instalation on ASCII?21:07
feeee3...please :)21:07
feeee3I always stop at g++-4.9  instalation21:07
minnesotagsI'm pretty satisfied using i3WM. It would be nice if application frames and borders were a bit "prettier", though.21:25
xrogaanwhat is cuda? Isn't that nvidia tech?21:26
fsmithredxrogaan, it looks better if you make the desktop icons smaller21:26
xrogaancuda seems to be a nvidia blackbox.21:27
xrogaando I need wicd if I only have a wired connexion?22:09
msiismxrogaan: no. but you still might want it. it's not only for wifi connections, is it?22:10
xrogaanI mean, do I need a network manager at all?22:13
msiismxrogaan: you can manage your network interfaces via /etc/network/interfaces instaed.22:14
freemxrogaan, no, you can also just configure /etc/network/interfaces, or do it by hand.22:14
msiismalso wifi.22:14
xrogaani only have wired, so the "extra" bit is of no concern for me.22:15
msiismxrogaan: and you're using wicd?22:15
xrogaanno, it's installed by default.22:16
msiismso, it's installed but you are not using it?22:16
xrogaanI have no idea how it's supposed to work.22:16
msiismxrogaan: what do you want to do?22:17
xrogaanI didn't configure the thing, so I don't know if it's necessary for my network.22:17
xrogaanWell, do I need it? If not, I remove it.22:17
freemyou don't need it.22:17
msiismxrogaan: does it work?22:17
freembut, you need to know before how to setup a network22:17
xrogaanI don't know if it works, it's just there.22:18
msiismxrogaan: ok, then it supposedly works. so, why remove it?22:18
xrogaanbecause it's an extra piece running on my computer, and if it does nothing then it has no use?22:19
msiismthe thing is that, it's not like these network managers in desktops are just frontends to the management via /etc/network/interfaces22:19
msiismyou have to decide for either the one or the other.22:19
freemyep, ifupdown and the network managers can not work on the same system.22:20
msiismusing /etc/network/interface is more or less a pain to use, imo. (i use it...)22:20
msiismso, just as an idea: if wicd work for yxou, which it seems to do, you're probably better off staying with it.22:21
freema pain? I'd say it's easy, especially when you play with different network, some without dhcpd22:21
msiismfreem: but certainly more work than using a working wicd.22:21
freemprobably, yes. Better control on stuff implies learning stuff and doing a bit more work.22:22
xrogaanwicd show "backend = external" in the manager config22:23
xrogaanthere is nothing in the config, actually. Everything is disabled.22:23
xrogaanso to None or False22:23
msiismhm... i'm not using wicd, so i can't say if this is a problem.22:24
freemyou should at least read some doc on /etc/network/interfaces (it's man, maybe) before trying to remove stuff related to network. And be sure to keep a dhcpcd and ifupdown. Or learn how to use the ip-* commands.22:24
freemJust in case removing wicd breaks your connection.22:25
xrogaanapparently, dhcp is magic and my interfaces is just fine :P22:25
xrogaanwho needs network managers when you have dhcp, right?22:27
freemnetwork managers are dhcp's clients.22:28
freemifupdown (the tool that uses /etc/network/interfaces) is a network manager, in practice. It's lower level compared to other ones, and have no GUI frontend (to my knowledge) but it still manages the network semi-automatically.22:29
freem(and only at boot time)22:29
xrogaanwho needs GUI?!22:29
xrogaanA true linux warrior input data in raw binary through the front panel.22:30
freemwell, we'll see the day you need to setup some WiFi client with captor portals :)22:31
freemwpa is easy, but I don't remember how I did that, if I ever succeded.22:31
msiismxrogaan: what's raw binary?22:32
xrogaanmsiism: think assembly, but even closer to the hardware.22:32
MinceRmachine code22:33
msiismwhy is it raw if it's already binary?22:33
fsmithredbinary like 0 and 1?22:34
msiismi guess so22:34
xrogaanTrue machine code is a stream of raw, usually binary, data. A programmer coding in "machine code" normally codes instructions and data in a more readable form such as decimal, octal, or hexadecimal which is translated to internal format by a program called a loader or toggled into the computer's memory from a front panel.22:34
xrogaanfrom wikipedia22:34
msiismso binary is raw. ok.22:35
xrogaan10001011 < this is also binary22:35
xrogaan> Hello World (Assemblers, Considered Harmful?!)22:38
* msiism prefers bash to binary22:38
freemwhat about gray binary?22:39
xrogaansome dude at the start believed assemblers to be harmful, because it would facilitate stuff and keep you from learning the memory addresses of your machine.22:42
freemwhat would he say, seing that now entire softwares are written  nodejs and electron...22:44
xrogaanhe wouldn't care because, like stallman, he wouldn't use nor see those.22:47
aitori've sent a message to the gnuetertics.org23:39
aitorjust a greeting23:39
msiismi just realized i've never checked their website. interesting project.23:45
aitoryes :)23:46
msiismi've done community radio in the past (though no larger part of the community seemed to notice)23:48
aitorthe founder seems to be a bit shy23:52
msiismwhat's founder in spanish?23:54
msiismand Diseñador and Desarrollador? what do these mean?23:55
aitorthe person who started the project, better than Creator23:55
msiismboth mean the same then?23:57
aitormsiism: you have spanish setxkbmap!23:57
aitoryou have the ñ!23:58
msiismaitor: no, i just copied that form the website. but i could do it with my keboard setup as well, i guess. :)23:58
aitorcheat :)23:59

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