freenode/#devuan/ Monday, 2018-06-25

msiismok, it doesn't work...00:02
filipdevuaniv downloaded kde plasma once and it was so weird00:06
aitori'm still waiting for the answer comming from, i await eagerly00:06
aitormsiism == gnu_srs ?00:08
msiismaitor: no.00:12
golinuxLOL!  aitor always good for a chuckle00:13
aitor00:25, bye :)00:17
aitorsee you00:18
xrogaanwhat is gnutertics?00:47
underd0gwhat I don't understand is , why is zeronet handling firefox calls ?00:54
logo4poophey! i have a little problem with ASCII 2.0.0. When i am at 12% at  de01:33
logo4poopDelect and install software01:34
logo4poopmy screen just freezes01:34
logo4poopanyone kenow the fix?01:34
gnarfacehow sure are you that it actually froze?  did you try alt+f4 (no it's not a joke)01:35
gnarfacethere could have been a number of reasons but without more evidence i can't tell you much01:36
gnarfaceit may simply appear frozen if your bandwidth is being throttled down to a trickle01:37
gnarfacebut in that case you should be able to pull up a different virtual terminal to see01:37
logo4poopits fully frozen01:37
logo4poopi have tried a few times01:37
logo4poopalso it said it installed discover01:38
gnarfaceis it always at 12% that it freezes exactly?01:38
gnarfaceor does it just freeze at random places after it starts installing?01:38
logo4poopalways 1201:38
gnarfacehmmm. very strange01:39
logo4poopi believe i saw a old  debian post about it01:39
gnarfacekinda like you're running out of ram or disk space, but i'd expect an error01:39
gnarfacewhat did the debian post say about it?01:39
logo4poopwhats the mininum needed?01:39
logo4poopi would think it would be less than 4gb01:39
gnarfaceit's less01:39
logo4poopso it should  work imo01:40
gnarfaceit definitely should01:40
gnarfacewhat did the debian post say about it?  might it have said to use acpi=off?01:40
logo4poop_lemme link you to the post01:40
logo4poop_looks like something to do with realtek drivers01:42
logo4poop_i thought i had realtek only for ethernet tho01:42
logo4poop_that guy is using uefi tho i am just using legacy01:43
gnarfacehmmm. interesting01:43
gnarfaceare you able to complete the install if you don't select that networking device during install?01:43
gnarfaceit may be possible to fix after your first boot01:43
logo4poop_i want to have internet tho01:44
logo4poop_how hard is it to set it up?01:44
gnarfacei'm not suggesting that you'd go without it01:44
gnarfaceit is no harder to set up after install than during it.01:44
logo4poop_could you explain to me how to do it?01:45
logo4poop_ill try to reinstall01:45
logo4poop_hopefully i dont have to use ethernet01:45
logo4poop_as i have no cord with me01:45
gnarfaceit would be a lot easier for you to use ethernet01:45
gnarfacewifi is buggy01:46
logo4poop_i really dont want to01:46
gnarfaceyou could use ethernet just for the install but then switch to wifi afterwards01:46
fsmithredare you using netinstall or dvd?01:46
gnarfacethat would make your life a lot easier01:46
logo4poop_i dont have a cord sadly01:47
fsmithredso you could install without mirror, without network01:47
fsmithredthen install the firmware afterward - it's in /firmware in the iso01:47
gnarfacefsmithred: (the bug report from debian that he linked claims the problem is exhibited by the dvd and netinstallers both - it appears at first glance to be a hardware allergy to the wifi driver somehow)01:47
fsmithredwere they using a debian iso that had the firmware on it?01:48
logo4poop_i did dvd-101:49
gnarfacenone of debian's disks have the firmware01:50
gnarfaceif i recall01:50
logo4poop_should i try withuefi maybe?01:50
gnarfaceand one person mentions that it happens to them with wifi OR ethernet :(01:50
filipdevuanare there thunders in cambridge??01:50
logo4poop_one person said turning off acpi worked01:51
fsmithredcambridge, massachusetts? might be thunder there right now01:51
gnarfacelogo4poop_: try it01:51
gnarfacelogo4poop_: that basically just disables power saving01:51
gnarfaceit was known to cause all kinds of issues historically01:52
gnarfaceif you can complete the install without it, you may be able to fix it with an upgraded kernel later01:52
gnarfaceor maybe just a updated firmware01:53
logo4poop_btw it does the same with  gui aswell01:53
fsmithrednewer kernel is needed?01:53
logo4poop_btw why is it even installing discover01:54
logo4poop_i am using quadcomm wifi thing01:54
gnarfacefsmithred: unclear - people are reporting that disabling acpi and achi worked, as well as just using firmware01:54
gnarfacelogo4poop_: you could do a minimal install too, just don't install anything until afterwards.  that makes it easier for you to control what you get.01:55
fsmithredlogo4poop_, how new is this hardware?01:55
logo4poop_3 years maybe?01:55
fsmithredok, maybe you don't need a newer kernel01:56
fsmithred1+ for minimal install01:56
t3chn0hi, i have a query: according to if i were to install ascii-backports would the edit of sources.list consist in adding:01:57
logo4poop_i do not have a other computer with me rn01:57
t3chn0deb ascii-backports main01:57
t3chn0deb-src ascii-backports main01:57
fsmithredt3chn0, don't use for ascii - use deb.devuan.org01:57
fsmithreddeb ascii-backports main01:58
t3chn0fsmithred, thanks01:58
fsmithrednote that it's /merged01:58
logo4poop_hopefully devuan is worth it01:58
t3chn0deb ascii-backports main02:00
t3chn0deb-src ascii-backports main02:00
gnarfacethat's right, t3chn002:00
t3chn0thanks guys02:00
logo4poop_i hope this works :x02:01
gnarfacet3chn0: i wouldn't advise just blind-updating from backports.  get what you need from there, and the dependencies, then shut it back off02:01
gnarfacelogo4poop_: you're gonna try it with acpi=off as a kernel boot option, right?02:02
logo4poop_i just pushed tab02:02
logo4poop_then added it on the end02:02
logo4poop_i hope i did that right02:02
logo4poop_should i do us.deb or deb,?02:03
logo4poop_for repos02:03
logo4poop_or pkgmaster02:04
fsmithredI would recommend just using deb.devuan.org02:04
fsmithredI'm in the US, and I've seen that I get foreign mirrors often02:04
fsmithredI don't think there are many in the us02:04
logo4poop_do i get a option to install kde?02:05
fsmithrednot sure if that's on the dvd or not02:05
fsmithredI know it's an option with a netinstall02:05
logo4poop_i should have gone net02:06
fsmithredyou have to be able to connect to the network for that02:06
logo4poop_uh oh02:06
logo4poop_i think it froze02:06
logo4poop_at 1202:06
fsmithredit's looking for wifi firmware?02:07
logo4poop_it says it installed ir02:07
t3chn0gnarface, thanks02:07
logo4poop_Installed discover, (amd64)02:07
logo4poopsorry back02:11
logo4poopi might not do devuan02:11
logo4poopit doesnt seem compatible with my system02:11
mdrights[m]Hi, am wondering if there's a channel for devuan-sdk?02:29
golinuxYou could try #devuan-dev02:31
ponchalesomeone connected?03:55
golinuxponchale: 250 or so of us.04:05
ChuangTzuall enjoying Devuan bliss apparently.  ;)04:09
ponchalehi Centurion_Dan06:33
ponchalehow are you?06:33
buZznobody connected06:45
bozoniusI just installed devuan ascii on my test box (yippee, I have a test box now!).  It was murder getting it partitioned the way I wanted, and next time I try this I might use a partitioning tool before doing the install.07:57
bozoniusthe problem I had is that I don't yet have the test box hooked up to internet (project for tomorrow night)07:57
bozoniusI don't seem to have X11, can't startx07:58
bozoniusis this normal for a standalone install (i.e., sans internet)07:58
gnarfacedepends on which disk08:00
gnarfaceyou need the "xinit" package for startx08:01
gnarfacewhich you might not have gotten automatically even if you did get a full X11 install08:02
gnarfaceif you got the CD or DVD sets, it's still on one of those disks...08:03
gnarfacenot sure about the netinstaller (but probably not)08:03
bozoniusI did an expert graphical install08:08
bozoniusI did not see where I could select packages08:08
gnarfaceyou can install it after first boot - the default created sources.list in this case should have contained a path to the optical disk08:11
bozoniusok, so there is no option to choose specific packages such as xinit during install then08:12
gnarfacewell, there used to be something called dselect08:12
gnarfacei'm not sure if it's still in there or not08:12
gnarfaceit's way easier to do it after first boot08:12
gnarfacedoes the machine have a network device?08:13
bozoniussure.  I'll do that when I get back on the test box.  Right now, I'm working on a different issue.08:13
bozoniusyes, but the installer complained it might not have a driver for it (rtl_nic/rtl8168e-3.fw)08:13
gnarfacethat's firmware08:14
bozoniusi Meant that08:14
bozonius(what you said)08:14
gnarfaceif it can't find it maybe it's in non-free08:15
bozoniusthankfully, I have lots of NICs around here...08:15
gnarfaceyes, confirmed, it's in firmware-realtek, in non-free08:16
gnarfaceit might not actually be required08:16
bozoniusthanks for this info08:16
gnarfacelots of their devices still work with limited functionality without it08:17
gnarfacebut i can't tell you anything about that specific one08:17
bozoniusnp, gnarface08:17
bozoniusjust thought I'd mention it08:17
bozoniusthe problem there is not the card or the board, it's just that bozonius hasn't hooked up internet yet08:17
gnarfacetypical limitations are that gigabit devices will only run at 100 megabit, and wifi devices will not allow encryption, or only allow wep encryption, etc08:17
bozoniushad another interesting problem... I mean, if you really wanna hear about it08:19
bozoniusI have my monitor hooked up to both my regular machine (where most of these fun visits originate from) and my new test box08:19
bozoniustest box is on D-Sub and the other is on DVI08:19
bozoniussomehow, this seems to have knocked out some of the vbox functionality.  I have a request for help in over on vbox... seems some tickets were logged about similar issues08:20
bozoniuswhen I switched back to the DVI connection, several VMs had been saved (not killed though)08:21
bozoniusone ticket out there already said that unplugging a monitor caused vbox to have a panic attack or something08:21
bozoniusthis is a different issue, nothing to do with devuan, just mentioning it08:22
gnarfacevbox must react to dpms?08:22
gnarfacethat seems like a weird thing to do08:22
gnarfacei wonder if it still happens if you disable dpms08:24
gnarfacei guess maybe it's reacting to xrandr events instead?08:25
gnarfaceeither way, seems weird to me08:25
bozoniusso it could be related to my switching the two ports08:25
bozoniuss/switching/switching between/08:25
bozoniuswouldn't that be more on the part of the host system?  Just asking08:26
bozoniusCentos 6.9 and no longer in support08:27
gnarfaceyou would think so08:27
bozoniusI mean, not really vbox itself, but the host OS environment08:27
gnarfaceit seems unreasonably bad behavior for vbox to care what the host display does08:28
bozoniusit's still 2.6.32 kernel...08:28
gnarfacei admit i have trouble believing it's true08:28
gnarfacebut i've also learned that blaming it on vbox is a safe bet08:28
bozoniusvbox has its share of interesting facts08:28
bozoniusLOL.  ok08:28
bozoniusI'll keep that in mind next time I come a-griping08:29
gnarfaceit does the same thing when you unplug the display?08:29
bozoniusoh, I really don't know08:29
bozoniusI'm afraid to test too much08:29
gnarfaceit might help to know08:29
bozoniusespecially if I plan on doing this into the future.08:29
bozoniusI do have an old monitor I could use instead08:29
gnarfaceyea, analog connections might be less likely to exhibit this type of behavior...08:30
bozoniusand avoid this altogether08:30
bozoniusmonitor is not that old... but it does have a D-sub08:31
bozoniusno dvi or hdmi08:31
bozoniusproblem is simply... uh08:31
bozoniusdesk space08:31
bozoniusalso, I'd need a VGA cable that could stretch all the way from the far side of my desk to the compartment, below, on the other side08:33
bozoniusI could probably make it work08:33
bozoniusAnd maybe getting some of this other clutter off my desk wouldn't be so bad anyway08:33
gnarfacewell you shouldn't have to08:35
gnarfacein a fair world, vbox shouldn't care about the display08:35
gnarfaceor at least should have some way to tell you to shut it off08:35
bozoniusAbout a 1/3 of the desk has become my medicine chest08:35
bozoniuslooks like there IS a way to disable dpms08:36
bozoniusbut these people are complaining that they want it ON, not OFF08:37
gnarfaceoh, hmmm08:37
gnarfacewell it was just a guess really08:37
gnarfacedpms or xrandr08:37
bozoniuscrap... some of these are 10 years old...08:37
gnarfacei doubt it's worth the trouble, honestly you should just use qemu-kvm instead08:40
nacellevirtualbox is poop08:40
bozoniusnote the poster says that code to strip the dpms code is no longer needed08:40
bozoniusyeah, actually gnarface, I've considered using alpine with kvm to run VMs08:41
nacelleits the way to go08:41
nacelleyou get ksp, etc.08:41
nacelle(kernel share pages)08:41
nacelleshared, even08:41
gnarfaceof course the primary bonus feature is that it actually works08:41
bozoniusksp makes me a bit leery...08:42
nacellelike, if you're running two vms that are really just copies of the same OS and they load the same libraries, the memory is going to look about the same.08:42
bozoniusso it is like docker then08:42
bozoniuscontainers, not true VMs08:42
bozoniuswhich is fine if that's what you want to do08:42
nacelleits true vms08:42
bozoniushow much memory will be saved typically?08:43
nacellevmware has been doing a ksp like thing since version 3 or so08:43
gnarfacebozonius: it has hardware virtualization support08:43
bozoniusI've got 16GB08:43
bozoniusdefine tons08:43
bozoniusIf I were running GoDaddy I'd like that, sure08:43
bozoniusI mean, I'll look at ksp, but I think for my needs, kvm and qemu would suffice08:44
gnarfacesure it doesn't have a nice gui for setup, but the command-line options are a lot more reliable08:45
bozoniusgnarface, now that I have a test box it will be easier to experiment with new technologies without worrying about corrupting my system I use for real world stuff08:45
bozoniusactually, there IS a gui of sorts, but I have yet to look at that in depth08:45
gnarfacewell there are probably several 3rd party front-ends08:45
gnarfacei've only used one and didn't like it08:46
bozoniusgnarface, I think you are a command line kind of guy08:46
bozoniusI like the GUIs myself, as long as they are not too complex08:46
bozoniusthere's a point of shrinking returns08:46
bozoniusnacelle:  I usually run very hetero VMs08:48
bozoniusnot sure how much I'd be saving08:48
nacelleyou run ksp on top of a qemu/kvm box08:51
bozoniusgnarface:  I think I shall clear off my desk a bit and place the 2nd monitor and avoid all the drama08:51
nacellebasically, without it, you can run vms until you run out of memory, where they allocate all of their memory at run time.08:51
nacelleno fun.08:51
nacelleso if you want to run 8 2GB VMs on a 16GB box... you can't.  you won't have the room for them with the hypervisor.08:52
nacellebut, run ksp, and you'll likely have multiple things going on08:52
nacelle1) pages that are duplicate are only stored once, with pointers for the vms that need the pages08:52
bozoniusnacelle:  I get how it works.08:52
nacelle2) pages not in use arent counted against the running total... so you can run a ton of extra VMs08:53
bozoniusBut if the VMs you are running are not identical or even similar how much would it save08:53
nacellethey will likely have a small percentage of shared pages, but the bigger savings there is because you can allocate only what you need08:53
nacelleits just a setting to flip on and try08:53
bozoniussure, and I will.  thanks08:54
bozoniusright now, I've got a problem with the monitor port switching between my test and main boxes08:54
nacelleits the big hurdle people have hit in switching to qemu-kvm from vmware/etc. in my experience08:54
nacellethat's the name of it.08:54
bozoniusdoesn't sound like a hurdle to me08:55
nacelleon VMware, they could launch 20 vms on the hardware... then they install linux and run qemu-kvm on it and can only launch like 10 of their vms.. and they're like... "WTF?"08:55
buZzbtw, if you want to run linux VMs , LXC is really good08:55
buZzand has way lower demands on resources08:55
bozoniusLXC testing is on my technology bucket list also...08:56
bozoniusLXC is probably taking advantage of Unix fork()08:57
bozoniusso there's no need for bookkeeping all the checksums08:57
buZzbozonius: yeah and kernel namespacing etc09:00
buZzits quite fancy09:00
bozoniusright, which is all in the kernel to start with09:00
bozoniusbedtime for bozonius09:05
bozoniusthanks gnarface and all who contributed09:06
buZzsleep tight09:06
gnarfaceno problem bozonius, grats on the test machine09:06
bozoniusI'm psyched!09:06
gnarfacei think you'll find stuff makes a lot more sense when you start with bare metal09:06
bozoniusthis will be a load of fun09:07
bozoniusyes, especially when I am not concerned (too much) about corrupting IMPORTANT work09:07
bozoniusit's been ages since I had a real test box09:07
jaromilbuZz: have you tried lxc2 with lxd?11:33
buZzi'm using proxmox to manage it for me11:33
buZzand keep pushing off of trying to install proxmox on top of devuan11:34
buZzbut i do feel a reinstall coming in future when i move to more HA setup11:35
jaromilproxmox supports lxc2 already?11:37
jaromili'm considering it now for the reinstallation of my home server :^P11:38
jaromildefinitely want to leverage lxc but then something to make it easy to manage would help11:38
buZzi think proxmox still uses lxc1 , couldnt find it, but i'll ask ##proxmox11:56
buZzjaromil: fyi, proxmox + containers functions inside of virtualbox, if you wanna try it out11:57
buZzjust kvm doesnt, last i tried11:57
jaromilok. my wish: i'd like to run proxmox on bare metal to manage lxc2 containers. or anything else that can do that easily12:21
jaromilafaik opennebula doesn't do lxc12:22
buZzhmm, lxc 1.0 will EOL in june 201912:42
buZzguess proxmox will move to lxc 2.0 before that12:42
icariousHi. How does one opt for devuan to use OpenRC if one takes the deboostrap installation route?15:51
parazydicarious: You can chroot and install openrc manually with apt.15:52
icariousparazyd: And installing it will automatically set it as the default?15:53
parazydIt'll be the only one. You can have 1 init installed.15:53
parazydIt's gonna remove the existing one and replace it with OpenRC>15:53
icariousOk. Thanks15:53
parazydYou're welcome.15:53
parazydOn another note, does anyone know if wpasupplicant forces having dbus installed?15:53
KatolaZparazyd: it wants libdbus16:00
parazydBut not dbus itself?16:01
icariousOn a side node. Does devuan plans to include as a package? Given not everyone is happy with Firefox Quantum. This could be a "browser-freedom" so to speak16:01
jaromilregarding package inclusion, don't ask what DEvuan can do for you, but ask yourself what you can do for Devuan ... :^)16:03
icariousjaromil: Was a "Suggestion" before the next freeze. if I could do it for Devuan, I wouldn't actually ask. Not a good packager as such. Besides I use Gentoo. Would just migrade my mother's Debian laptop to Devuan + OpenRC16:04
bozoniusI don't have internet on my test box yet, but devuan ascii does boot... to command line.  Tried to install xinit to get x11 -- or what do I need?17:59
bozoniusbtw, this is on REAL hardware this time18:00
fsmithredbozonius, install at least xserver-xorg to get the basics or xorg to get it all.18:09
bozonius all I have is the cdrom now18:18
bozoniusthe deb cdrom: line is not commented, so it should work18:18
bozoniusbut apt-cache search xserver-org comes up bupkas18:19
KatolaZbozonius: is it a DVD?18:20
bozoniusunless it is not available on CD18:20
bozoniusyou know what?18:21
KatolaZbozonius: how many cdroms do you have?18:21
bozoniusI have  netinstall18:21
KatolaZthen you just have the base system18:21
bozoniusnvm guys18:21
bozoniusnvm, nvm, nvm18:21
* bozonius has done it again18:21
KatolaZnetinst gets only the packages to debootstrap18:21
bozoniusgot it18:22
fsmithredcan you get a network connection?18:22
bozoniusI forgot I was using netinstall.  Please forgive me.18:22
bozoniusyes, I can get one, but it is a project and I have to go to a dr appt shortly18:22
KatolaZbozonius: no need to apologize :)18:22
bozoniusI'm going to ask him about a memory transplant18:23
bozoniusseriously, just the chiropractor18:23
fsmithredwhose memories do you want?18:23
bozoniusno, I want empty, clean, virgin memory fsmithred!18:23
bozoniusI've got enough of my own18:23
fsmithredif you wait long enough, they'll all go away18:24
bozoniusactually, it seems I don't have to wait long at all...18:24
bozoniusmaybe coffee will help18:24
* bozonius tells himself18:24
fsmithredI know the feeling. Don't forget your appointment18:24
g0zzyHave been used to using the following (on 'standard' Debian) to display message on remote user's screen but nothing appears with the following on Devuan: sudo -H -S -u roger -- pluma /tmp/upd.txt --display=:0.019:41
g0zzySorry - fixed i think. Not sure what the '--' was. When removed, it works19:48
rseveroHi. I'm trying to install Devuan 2.0 in a brand new AMD Ryzen 2400 G but I'm getting "AMD-Vi: Completion-Wait loop timed out" warnings and eventually kernel panics. Tried with CentOS and got the same problem. Seems to be related to kernel 4.X. Ideas?20:42
muep_I'd suggest trying with some fairly recent distribution to confirm that the hardware works20:45
muep_especially if the kernel version is older than your motherboard chipset, there will often be trouble20:53
rseveroApparently there is some incompatibility with some 4.x kernels, new AMD systems and IOMMU. For me, disabling IOMMU seems to have done the trick: installation is going on. I will see if after installation, with newest kernel available I can get IOMMU enabled again.20:54
rseveroTried with Devuan 2.0, CentOS 7 and XUbuntu 18.04. All presented the same issue.20:55
muep_4.x means a pretty huge range of kernels over many years, including the latest ones20:56
muep_but I would not expect you to get much more success with kernels whose version starts with 320:56
rseveroAs per comments I got in the net, 3.x kernels are fine. I will report back when I finish my installation and update everything.20:59
muep_also 3.x is a huge range of versions21:01
logo4poopi had a issue yesterday and ifixed it21:02
logo4poopthanks gnarface21:02
logo4poopor whatever your username is21:02
logo4poopi fixed it by enabling uefi21:02
rseveromuep_: In case you are interested in more info about this issue:
muep_here to me it does not seem to suggest that it would be specific to having the version number begin with 421:07
muep_the change in linux versions from 3.x to 4.x was purely an aesthetic one21:07
rseveroHumm, I see that the 4.x kernel info really got you hooked. I was just passing along some info other guy got when trying to pin point this issue. But on the above link you can see a commit id.21:08
muep_I'd read that mail more like "you should try something more recent than 4.10"21:08
rseveroReally? It mentions one specific kernel commit.21:09
muep_it might be some other issue, but I really would not expect a brand new ryzen system to work well with a 3.x kernel from three years ago21:10
rseveroBut anyway, I will see if with the latest devuan 2.0 kernel I can get iommu back and report here.21:10
muep_at least based on my limited experience of supporting corporate linux desktops, old kernel + new hardware is good for keeping the admins busy21:11
ponchaleWe are a foundation and we use as based Devuan for build an distro different where we promote the use of web apps inheriting the concept of FFOS21:20
rseveromuep_: Great advice muep_, thanks.21:20
ponchaleWhat can we do to have them published on Devuan's website?21:20
rseveroFully updated devuan 2.0 needs "iommu=soft" kernel parameter to work on Ryzen 2400G with IOMMU enabled in the BIOS.21:20
rseveroI will try now with a newer kernel as devuan is installing
golinuxponchale:  A link would be a good start.  You talked about this some time ago but I forget the name of the project21:57
ponchaleyeah golinux but with centurion and another person that I do not remember well no agreement was reached21:58
golinuxI looked around for FFOS yesterday when I saw you here and it looked dead21:59
golinuxSearch pulled almost nothing.22:00
golinuxIt helps to be active on our channels.  Just stopping by, making a request and disappearing does not build confidence.22:01
ponchaleFFOS yeah is dead but Astian OS is live and we seek the support of gitlab22:01
ponchalenow I send de link of page one moment please22:03
ponchalegolinux, look please
ponchaleand spanish
ponchalewe seek and now we insist on establishing a strong alliance with Devuan22:07
golinuxWhat do you consider an alliance?22:08
golinux"Alliance" assumes some sort of participation.22:10
golinuxI couldn't remember astian. And a FFOS search no longer points to it.22:11
golinuxI will mention astian at our next Devuan meet and provide the link.22:13
ponchalegolinux, an alliance where we both benefit, for example, where the Astian foundation helps Devuan's maintenance, not only with a participation but also providing tools such as an official desk for Devuan help in the translation into Spanish and Portuguese among others and Devuan helps us develop our OS and base a sdk based on Devuan's22:16
golinuxOh he left . . . bummer22:26

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