freenode/#devuan/ Thursday, 2018-07-12

nullawkI recently picked up some wifi adapters that are based on the atheros AR9271, ath9k_htc driver. If I understand correctly firmware-atheros is a non-free package, but ath9k_htc is 'libre' - I specifically have this card thinking it would be extra devuan compatible. https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-usb-adapter-gnu-linux-tpe-n150usb - I have a feeling I am suppose to modify the kernel and or modprobe something?03:35
gnarfacedid you install the firmware from non-free?03:39
gnarfaceyes, you may also have to modprobe the module03:40
nullawkNegative. I was trying to avoid touching that repository.03:40
gnarfacefor this device you'll probably need to03:40
gnarfacebut you can just turn it back off once you've added the firmware03:41
gnarfacefor wifi devices that have "optional" non-free firmware, usually they can only operate in unencrypted or wep mode without it.  sometimes there is also a performance penalty03:41
gnarfacethe module itself IS in the stock kernel though03:42
gnarfaceit is open source, for whatever good that is03:42
nullawkI imagine that package also contains non-free drivers / blobs, even if I never load it I would prefer it not installed on the computer. A bit of a passion / learning project.03:42
gnarfaceuh03:42
gnarfaceno i'm pretty sure that package only has firmware bin files in it03:42
gnarfacedon't think of it as an alternate driver03:43
gnarfacethink of it as the key for the existing driver03:43
gnarface(it's probably actually a stack of firmwares for all their devices)03:43
nullawkThank you so far gnarface. I figured it was a stack of firmwares for all their devices, free and non free, which is why they had to put it in the non-free repo. I have a feeling I should just get a different wifi adapter (ath5k??) that will load out of the box to keep from loading the non-free repository, or having to manually update the kernel everytime03:45
infobotnullawk: no worries03:45
gnarfacewtf infobot?03:46
gnarfacestay outta this03:46
nullawkxD03:46
gnarfacei don't know what in that sentence triggered it03:46
nullawkThank you03:46
nullawkmaybe not.03:46
gnarfacebut yes, if you think this seems like a dirty way to subvert the intent of open source by claiming to release open source drivers but not really releasing all of the source and just hiding the main parts in a closed-source black box binary, yea we all see that too.03:47
gnarfaceand you're right, the only plausible fix that doesn't involve clean-room reverse-engineering or corporate espionage would be to choose hardware more carefully next time03:48
gnarfacein general for wifi, i'd avoid atheros, broadcom, and intel03:48
gnarfaceif you're trying to avoid dependencies on non-free binary blobs03:48
gnarfacei can't give you any good advice on wifi devices though03:49
gnarfacei still try to use physical wires whenever possible03:49
mtnmanheh my laptop's ethernet quit working the other day and now i'm relegated to wifi only.03:50
gnarfaceouch03:50
gnarfaceit quit after an upgrade, or you think it fried?03:50
mtnmanwell i also have a usb-ethernet connection to the beaglebone03:51
gnarfacefun03:51
mtnmanslow03:51
nullawkI am exactly trying to avoid dependencies on non-free binary blobs. I completely agree on more research, and trust me, I thought I had. In fact I dont know how to find what you just told me other than figuring out that package is in the non-free repository and ALSO includes their libre drivers. I have been using hardwire exclusively for a long while and am ready to hit the road.03:51
mtnmanfortunately usb wifi adapters are cheap these days03:52
gnarfaceyea i think d-link sells some 9$ usb a/b/g/n adapters that don't require firmware, don't they?03:52
gnarfacei dunno how reliable or secure they are03:53
gnarfaced-link isn't exactly known for quality03:53
mtnmani've had good luck with realtek but i don't know if their drivers are blob-free03:53
nullawkI mean, I got money to throw away on this03:53
gnarfacei think realtek is all over the board, some of their devices require non-free firmware and some don't03:54
gnarfacethey seem to lend their chips to a lot of 3rd party vendors03:54
nullawkdoesn't "less /proc/modules" list all the available modules for loading?03:54
gnarfacethen maybe those vendors make different decisions about the firmware03:54
gnarfacenullawk: probably just the ones that are currently loaded.  compare the output to `lsmod` to be sure03:55
gnarfacenullawk: all the installed modules are in the kernel package and put into /lib/modules/[kernel version] on disk03:55
gnarfacenullawk: try this:   `find /lib/modules/ -iname 'ath*.ko'`03:56
nullawkI think ill have better luck looking at the available drivers, and working backwards to find a chipset / manufacturer.03:56
gnarfacenullawk: or better yet:  `find /lib/modules/ -iname '*.ko'`03:56
gnarfacethe kernel has pretty much everything included03:57
gnarfacei almost never have to rebuild to add an ethernet driver03:57
gnarfacehowever03:57
gnarfaceif you want to see the EXHAUSTIVE list, you'll have to actually open the kernel source03:57
gnarfacerun make menuconfig in it03:57
gnarfaceand then actually navigate to the network devices section03:57
gnarfaceits ugly but its the only way to get an accurate up-to-date list03:58
gnarfaceyou can't trust web pages to be up to date on device support anymore03:58
nullawkwell haha I just found the ath9k driver but I also just read on https://wikidevi.com/wiki/Atheros_AR9271 in Debian the firmware-atheros package includes files: /lib/firmware/ar9271.fw /lib/firmware/htc_9271.fw - Without these modprobe ath9k_htc does not create wlan0 device and dmesg shows: => Failed to load firmware03:58
gnarfaceheh, yea that is not hugely surprising to me03:59
nullawkdirty bastards03:59
gnarfacehonestly for now i would just bite down and install that one non-free firmware package03:59
gnarfaceand then just disable non-free again so as not to accidentally get other stuff from there during a future upgrade04:00
gnarfaceand then maybe i would also delete the firmwares for other devices, and just keep the two files this device needs04:00
mtnmanand don't tell anyone!!04:00
gnarfacebut i fully support your reluctance to trust them even that much04:00
gnarfacelol mtnman yea04:01
gnarfacesecrecy silence obedience :-p04:01
nullawkNah. This is my freedom laptop. I will just closet these adapters.04:01
mtnmanthe first rule of using non-free...04:01
gnarfacehmmm.  who even is making the best fully free wifi devices these days?04:02
gnarfacei realize i have no idea04:02
gnarfacethe last wifi device i actually liked was a pcmcia card04:02
mtnmani did a search and it wasn't readily apparent where to even look04:02
gnarfacethat's a good sign nobody knows04:02
gnarfaceunfortuantely04:02
gnarface*unfortunately04:02
mtnmanheh i just went through some old hardware and found a pcmcia wifi card04:02
gnarfacemaybe someone in here has some anecdotes to share though04:03
gnarfaceanyone using wifi without binary blobs here?04:03
mtnmangnarface maybe try #hardware04:03
gnarfacenah fuck those haters04:03
mtnmanhmmm.... who's the hater??04:03
gnarfaceall they'll do is purposefully give you bad advice and then tell you that you live in your mom's basement04:03
gnarfaceseriously,04:03
mtnmanactually i got some good help in there yesterday04:04
gnarfaceand it's ##hardware fyi for a good reason04:04
nullawkto let you know where I'm at: I have ath5k cards that work full libre out of the box. They are usually bigger and always B/G, not N. It appears N (ath9k) requires the non-free.04:04
gnarfacei'm not saying i didn't once get good advice from there too... after a gauntlet of verbal abuse and misdirection04:04
gnarfacenullawk: that's very interesting... the B/G ones that work without the firmware... do they work for wpa2 encryption?04:05
nullawkYup04:05
gnarfacehmmm. good to know04:05
gnarfaceso wireless N may be under some sort of secret trade embargo towards linux04:05
gnarfacelike the HDMI thing04:05
mtnmangnarface i guess some abuse is the price one pays for help there04:06
gnarfacemtnman: none of them are actually smart or experienced enough to deserve to treat people like that04:06
gnarfaceknowing ONE thing someone else doesn't, doesn't make you inherently better than that person04:07
mtnmangnarface the guy who helped me wasn't abusive but he did have a slightly condescending attitude.04:07
mtnmanit was slight enough for me to mostly ignore it.04:07
mtnmanand he knew what he was talking about.04:08
gnarfacesomeone once helpfully warned me about over-volted RAM with a tone that was no more derogatory than appropriate, but he wasn't a regular there.04:08
gnarfaceonce the regulars start to remember you though, they get clique-ish and mean04:08
gnarfacethey were actually busted down to ##hardware from #hardware over their misbehavior04:09
gnarfacethat's not the official reason, but i ... know things04:09
mtnmanactually, now that i think about it wasn't #hardware but a different channel. hehe04:09
gnarfaceso the other things i'm having trouble finding drivers for in linux are to do with video and audio capture in HD04:10
gnarfaceit seems as though there's another one of these meta-trade-embargos on linux for component and HDMI video inputs, as well as digital audio04:11
gnarfaceoutputs seem to be fine04:11
gnarfacebut finding a working driver for something above standard definition with a non-analog audio input is as near to impossible as i can estimate04:12
mtnmangnarface: the thing is that the media industry is behind it from what i've read.04:14
mtnmanthey don't want you to be able to decode an hdmi stream unless your device is drm'd04:16
nullawkmtnman, gnarface. It is my understanding there is _no_ libre HDMI driver. It is one of the main issues with the Pi, wont even boot without it.04:18
mtnmannullawk that is what i was describing04:18
nullawkI am just curious how one can get even substandard video output if that is the case. It's my understanding HDCP hasnt been broken.04:20
nullawkAnyways, I'll be in here but not active if anyone wants to chime in on a USB / PCI libre wifi - or a point in the right direction (ath5k usb that doesnt suck?)04:22
gnarfacewoops04:24
gnarfacenot sure if you guys got all my messages04:24
gnarfacei didn't get any responses04:24
gnarfaceseems like someone upstream of me didn't like my rant and decided to pull the plug on it...04:24
gnarfacehmmm04:25
nullawk(02:11:51 AM) gnarface: but finding a working...04:25
gnarfacemaybe its not just me04:25
gnarfaceok that was the last thing i said before i noticed it was down04:26
gnarfacethe rest was just testing04:26
Centurion_Dangnarface... brightsign produce kit that has hdmi input...04:26
gnarfacecan you guys resolve debian.org right now?04:26
gnarfacemaybe there was just a massive internet outage not just me...04:27
Centurion_Danhttps://www.brightsign.biz/digital-signage-products and they use debian on their kit...04:27
gnarfaceinteresting, this one is new to me, thanks Centurion_Dan04:27
gnarfaceCenturion_Dan: do you know if their driver for it is open source or not?04:28
Centurion_Dana colleague that does work in AV was asking me to help him solve some problems with stream hd captured from hdmi04:28
gnarfaceor are they just using a debian backend with some proprietary in-house hardware and blobs?04:28
Centurion_DanI don't know...  uses a broadcom chipset...04:30
gnarfaceoh04:30
gnarfaceso yes, probably04:30
gnarfacehmm, but if it works that would still be useful04:30
Centurion_DanI have a sneaking suspicion that hdmi may be a simply a multi-channel serial protocol and it's possible that the hardware does bi-directional....04:32
Centurion_Danthe underlying streams seem to be mpeg-ts encapsulated...04:33
Centurion_Dangnarface: just a bit of web searching (duckduckgo) turns up hdmi framegrabber/capture cards are reasonably available and work with existing v4l2 in kernel drivers.04:44
gnarfaceCenturion_Dan: someone else told me that once and when i went to look, there was only vendors in the UK that would not ship to the USA04:45
gnarfacei guess it's been a couple months since i looked04:45
gnarfacebut it was actually shockingly rare still04:45
Centurion_Danhttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1198526104:45
cygEatWinHi, there~04:46
gnarfacehmmm, not brands i've heard of, but i'll look into them, thanks Centurion_Dan04:46
* Xenguy uses cygwin at work, mostly for 'find' and 'grep'04:47
gnarface(i also wasn't aware that the uvcvideo driver may randomly support undocumented HDMI input devices - i thought that was only for USB webcams.  in fact, i'm using it for USB webcams...)04:47
cygEatWinI have a question when using d1h:  what's the substitute of anonscm.debian.org ?04:48
XenguyIIRC KatolaZ knows about that stuff?04:50
cygEatWinfor now, which git URL does d1h cache from ?04:51
gnarfaceis it something on git.devuan.org maybe?  i don't actually know.04:51
golinuxcygEatWin: Have you seen this? https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=54904:53
cygEatWingolinux: yes. that's where I konw d1h cache from the old debian git repo which is now deprecated.04:54
cygEatWinand they move to salsa.debian.org04:54
golinuxI remember that now.  anonscm has been deprecated but d1h hasn't been fixed to reflect that yet.04:58
golinuxAs Xenguy suggested, catch KatolaZ or you could file a bug at bugs.devuan.org (if one hasn't been submitted yet).04:59
cygEatWinokay. thanks, golinux05:00
Centurion_DanI'm really pissed off with debians handling of anonscm...  if it's moved they should have put in place a redirect to the new home - for the simple reason - all the VCS links in the package meta-data is now broken...05:01
Centurion_Danshows how little debian cares....05:01
golinuxThat would be one way to give us a headache.05:01
golinuxAnd more work to do.05:02
gnarfacewe all knew it was inevitable05:03
gnarfacetheir vandalism and hostility will increase in direct proportion to the rate our own user base increases05:03
gnarface*at least*05:03
gnarfacebut something else interesting seems to be happening05:04
golinuxyes . . ?05:04
gnarfacei am seeing signs their own internal awareness of the inner workings of their own distro seems to be slipping05:04
gnarfacethey're not just taking out stuff they know we're using05:05
gnarfacethey're taking out stuff when they don't know what it's for05:05
gnarfacewhich is a horribly bad default position05:05
gnarfacesuggests to me collective competence is slipping over there05:05
golinuxThey have had a brain drain05:06
gnarfaceinferred promises of smooth transitioning from legacy versions and preservation of expected behaviors are being broken05:06
gnarfacebasically their community compact is being broken05:07
gnarfaceand it's not always clear they even realize it05:07
gnarfaceso yea, that's bad05:07
gnarfaceand not just for us and debian05:08
gnarfacethat's bad for the whole internet05:08
golinuxMaybe that's the price to have a shiny, 'modern' desktop.05:09
* golinux needs a stretch.05:10
Centurion_Danwell... my view, and nextimes view has always been that we have to plan for Devuan to become a fully independent distrobution, where we build all our packages and support them properly.  Debian can't be trusted and it's increasingly obvious that we won't be able to rely on them.05:29
Centurion_DanThis is not what we wanted... it just appeared obvious already before jessie was released that Debian was fundamentally in trouble and the people who carried it through the tough times in the past had either left in dilusionment or been forced out...05:31
Centurion_DanWhat scares me more, is the nay sayers, who say we can't become independent of Debian because "there is too much to do"... "we can't even provide security support for the few packages that we have already forked"...05:33
gnarfacelol neither can ubuntu but that's not hurting them05:34
Centurion_DanI think this is simply small minded thinking and ultimately it's destructive...05:34
gnarfacei agree, they lack vision05:35
Centurion_Danthat's coming from some people within our own Devuan development team...05:35
gnarfacewell Devuan does need more staff and while i admit i'm not helping in any measurable way, i think that's an entirely solvable problem05:36
Centurion_Danwe need to stop looking at the seemingly insurmountable mountain and work on one task at a time and only take in enough of the view to build a good strategy and series of tasks to ensure we are working on the most important problems first...05:37
gnarfacemaybe the most important problem should be training new developers05:41
gnarfaceor poaching them from other projects...05:42
gnarfacethe problem about deciding what is important first comes down to too many differences in what we're using it for05:44
Leandermy question is: how will Devuan avoid the errements of Debian if it takes in many new developers and they have conflicting ideas about what's best for the distro?05:44
gnarfaceLeander: probably just fork some more05:44
gnarfaceit would be nice to get everyone on the same page though05:45
gnarfacebut if i had to list showstoppers for devuan for me, none of them would include the window manager, or firefox version, for example05:45
gnarfacei'd care more about http, smtp, ssh, vpn, and such05:45
gnarfacebut for a lot of people here, a working out-of-the-box desktop is a bigger priority05:46
gnarfaceso its clear that if we can't get enough developers in time, some packages may slip in quality05:46
gnarfacebut i think thats already happening in Debian, frankly05:46
gnarfaceand i had some ideas about mitigating the problems, as a sort of transitional plan05:46
gnarfacethings like a grading system for the packages' respective maintenance quality, up-to-datedness and security05:47
gnarface(not just popularty)05:47
gnarfaceor maybe something more extreme if it became a critical issue; like a tiered temporary freeze on packages that were no longer getting many updates but for whom new updates were not known to be trustworthy enough to spend time reviewing yet05:47
gnarfacebut on the other hand, getting new developers organically is almost the slowest possible way to do it05:48
gnarfacemaybe the real effort should be put behind throwing a few mega parties05:49
gnarfacethat worked for Mozilla in the early days05:49
gnarfacewhen they needed more community involvement, they just hired a DJ, rented a bar, and sold cheap drinks all night05:49
gnarfacethey did that yearly for a few years and it seemed to work in the sense that now Mozilla is a monster that also must be destroyed05:50
gnarfaceso finding staff doesn't seem to be their problem05:50
gnarfaceso as disgusting as it sounds, maybe all Devuan needs is some artificial hype05:50
gnarfacei can think of a few other things that would generate realistic hype too05:51
gnarfacegamers don't feel very at home in any linux distro05:51
gnarfaceadding some new tasks like "task-linux-gaming" could go a LONG way05:52
gnarfacetrying to get Steam up and running is WAAAAY harder than it should be05:52
gnarfaceeven using the closed-source nvidia drivers to accelerate glxgears takes way too much knowledge of Nvidia's package layout in non-free for most new adopters05:53
gnarfacethere's simple things we could do to surpass all other distros in practical usefulness for the entertainment-minded05:53
gnarfacethings that have typically been scoffed at by other distros, more for idealogical reasons than practical ones05:54
* gnarface puts the soapbox away and goes to dinner05:57
Leanderyes, I very recently realised that my mpv didn't use hardware acceleration for some videos just because I didn't have some libva* or libvdpau* packages, and I can't even remember how I fixed it now05:57
ivanshmakovGiven the GOG.COM well-known anti-DRM stance, I’d very much rather have /that/ than Steam. Then again, my favorite games are Emacs and GCC, and they already pose no problem for any decent GNU/Linux distribution.06:07
Leanderthat's exactly the question though: how pragmatic can we get to make Devuan more prominent?06:11
LeanderI don't know a single windows gamer who doesn't have steam06:12
ivanshmakovLeander: Another question is: should we? I’m not as of yet sure that those coming to Devuan from Windows gaming are going to contribute much to the project.06:24
golinuxLeander: I don't think that courting gamers would be a good move.  It would be a more attractive option to offer a Devuan-Libre.  Those would be the folks likely to contribute and appreciate what we're trying to do.06:40
LeanderI don't have a clear opinion about that06:43
nacellethe gcc cheat codes dont always work like the did in other versions of gcc06:44
nacelleits a weird game to play06:44
Leanderto me, it's still not clear who in Devuan takes the strategic decisions, and how06:45
Leanderand I see it as the first issue, because without a clear and trusted leadership. how can the distro move forward?06:46
Leanderand how can it avoid the pitfall that Debian seems to have fallen into?06:46
golinuxLeander: If you participated, you would understand how the process unfolds.06:51
Leandermaybe this should be reflected to all users, but of course I can understand that by lack of manpower it wasn't done yet06:53
golinuxLeander: Imagine a creative think tank where magic happens.  There is no formal process to reflect.07:02
Leanderback in the days, I was a translator for the Gentoo Weekly Newsletter (yes, Gentoo, and I stand by it), so I can imagine having a monthly (because things don't go as fast) newsletter to regularly update users about what is going on07:03
golinuxWould you like to take that pon?07:05
golinux-p07:05
golinuxEvery attempt to get that going again has gone nowhere.07:06
Leanderahah, that's not very encouraging, given that I have no experience as an editor or such position07:07
golinuxThe initial effort burned out very quickly.07:07
golinuxIf no one takes it on, it's not going to happen.07:07
LeanderI think the timing can be right, because I'll be on leave until the end of August, which means a lot of spare time to read things and participate07:08
KatolaZCenturion_Dan: dreaming large is easy. Getting things done requires people who do those things.07:10
golinuxLeander: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/home07:10
KatolaZthe fact is that by keeping our feet to the ground we now have two Devuan releases07:10
KatolaZif we had to rebuild and maintain the whole Debian, we wouldn't have any07:11
KatolaZ:)07:11
golinuxBut dreaming is so much more fun than all-nighters at the keyboard07:11
golinux:D07:12
KatolaZwe all would like to have grand visions07:12
KatolaZin terms of manpower Debian is about 100 times larger than Devuan07:13
KatolaZCenturion_Dan: we have been actually working at many more than one task at a time, even if the average across07:19
KatolaZtime is obviously not constant07:19
KatolaZLeander: any help is welcome07:19
KatolaZthe best way to see something happen is to do it ;)07:20
KatolaZand concerning steam and other stuff, my personal opinion is that (apart from it being not free software) it wouldn't be a major drive for masses of user to come to Devuan07:21
KatolaZsteam works on almost all the distros07:21
KatolaZalready07:21
KatolaZyou don't move masses of users just on one feature07:21
KatolaZand if you do, you'll most probably loose them when the-next-cool-feature comes around07:22
KatolaZIMHO07:23
gnarfacewell that's the logic Debian used, but then Ubuntu proved that you can move tons of people with just driver support out of the box07:23
gnarfacenot that you're wrong in principle07:23
gnarfacewe shouldn't have to bother with ungrateful windows refugees07:23
gnarfacei just think its a missed opportunity to actually enlighten a few of them07:23
gnarfaceeven if most of them will just bail for the next fad07:23
gnarfaceand i'd rather have GoG over Steam any day too, but the ball is in GoG's court on that one07:24
KatolaZgnarface: 99.5% of the Ubuntu users don't give a toss to the init that their distro is running07:25
gnarface(and they're not passing it back, so comparatively, Valve looks very friendly)07:25
KatolaZand 90% of them does not even know what an init is useful for07:25
gnarfacei doubt Debian users are much different these days07:25
KatolaZso07:25
KatolaZwhy should they go for Devuan?07:25
gnarfaceso, i'm not mad at the users about that07:26
KatolaZ:D07:26
KatolaZI am not mad at them either07:26
gnarfacethey should go for Devuan because in the long run its better for them intellectually, ethically, and logistically07:26
KatolaZgnarface: and we explain it by supporting steam?07:27
KatolaZ:)07:27
gnarfaceyou can't expect everyone who deserves to know that to be capable of knowing it without help07:27
KatolaZgnarface: steam won't help them, IMHO07:27
gnarfacewell you're getting hung up on your prejudice against Valve here07:27
KatolaZDevuan has already made the quite corageous move of including non-free firmware in the install media07:27
gnarfacemaybe i shouldn't have brought steam up as part of the example, it distracted you too much from the point of my statement07:27
gnarfaceits hardly a single point on the line of shit that is broken out of the box for sheer prejudice and nothing else07:28
KatolaZgnarface: I don't have any clue of who or what Valve is07:28
gnarfacethey own Steam07:28
KatolaZso I can't have any prejudice on them07:28
KatolaZor on steam07:28
gnarfaceempirical evidence suggests otherwise07:28
KatolaZmy point is that a single package won't move masses07:28
gnarfacedid you miss my statement about the takss?07:28
gnarface*tasks??07:28
KatolaZespecially if that single package is already provided by hundreds other distros07:29
gnarfaceit wasn't about a single package though07:29
KatolaZmaybe I missed id07:29
KatolaZit07:29
gnarfaceit was about dozens of packages that need to be grouped manually that shouldn't have to be07:29
gnarfacea nice side-effect would be Steam support but really you can just swap that statement out with [any commercial software, period]07:29
gnarfaceand [most the open-source games made this decade]07:30
gnarfaceif new users can get find that information easier for Ubuntu, they'll never know why its a crappy distro07:31
KatolaZthere is a lot up there gnarface, sorry07:31
KatolaZ:\07:31
KatolaZwhat do you refer to when you talk of "dozens of packags that need to be grouped"?07:32
gnarfaceall the steam dependencies, just for an example, that are different based on which video card you're using.  that's a bewildering quest to find that information when it could just be a task meta-package07:33
gnarfaceand the only reason its not is because i guess there's a tradition against making task meta-packages that include non-free stuff?07:34
gnarfaceand like Leander mentioned, this affects basic multimedia functions like video playback just as badly07:34
gnarfacesince most cards now rely on some components of the commercial opengl drivers to accelerate HD video07:34
KatolaZgnarface: there is currently no task-* package that includes non-free software07:35
KatolaZit's not a matter of tradition07:36
gnarfaceDebian's stance on this has always been "eeeww, gamers are dirty! get out of open source and go back to windows!" and i feel like that's unnecessarily hostile and short-sighted07:36
gnarfaceand not only that07:36
gnarfaceREALLY easy for us to fix07:36
KatolaZgnarface: do not blame me for what you think is Debian's stance :)07:36
gnarfacei didn't until i started hearing you echo it07:37
KatolaZgnarface: where have I echoed that? o_O07:37
gnarfacefrankly i'm a little disappointed by your response07:37
KatolaZ07:21 < KatolaZ> and concerning steam and other stuff, my personal opinion is that (apart from it being not free software) it07:37
KatolaZ                 wouldn't be a major drive for masses of user to come to Devuan07:37
KatolaZgnarface: ^^^^ this was my point07:37
KatolaZplease read the backlog07:38
KatolaZI have nothing against gamers07:38
KatolaZnothing at all :)07:38
gnarfaceoh man07:38
gnarfaceread YOUR backlog07:38
KatolaZo_O07:38
gnarfaceyou go on to state that any people who we MIGHT pull in that way will just jump ship immediately07:38
gnarfacefor whatever other "new feature" appears on some other distro07:39
KatolaZnono gnarface07:39
KatolaZI am not saying that07:39
gnarfaceand i think that shows dimwitted prejudice and a lack of faith in yourself and us07:39
KatolaZI am saying that supporting a single package won't save masses07:39
KatolaZfullstop07:39
KatolaZ:)07:39
gnarfaceand you're missing my point if you thought i was suggesting that07:39
KatolaZthe rest of the derivation is yours, not mine07:39
KatolaZthen please clarify07:39
gnarfaceyou think this is about steam support vs no steam support.07:39
KatolaZnope07:40
KatolaZit's avout focusing on one package07:40
KatolaZone feature07:40
gnarfacewhereas the truth is "Steam" in this situation is more like a canary in the coal mine07:40
KatolaZthe "kille-feature"07:40
gnarfaceyea, you're not hearing me still07:40
gnarfaceyou're still hung up on Steam07:40
KatolaZo_O07:40
KatolaZagain07:40
KatolaZchange the name07:40
KatolaZsame response07:40
gnarfaceits not just one package though we're talking about here07:40
KatolaZgnarface: please clarify07:41
KatolaZreally07:41
gnarfaceok let me try to boil it down as simple as possible07:41
gnarfaceits difficult to compose my thoughts because you've really derailed me with your apparent lack of knowledge about package dependencies07:42
gnarfacehow about i pose to you a counter-question07:42
KatolaZgnarface: no, please clarify your point07:42
gnarfacehmmm07:42
KatolaZI haven't derailed you o__07:42
gnarfaceSteam has dependencies07:42
gnarfacewe can agree on that, right?07:43
KatolaZany package has07:43
KatolaZyes07:43
gnarfacegood07:43
gnarfaceany package can have some dependencies that are shared with other packages, right?07:43
KatolaZ...07:43
gnarfaceright?!07:43
KatolaZyep07:43
gnarfaceok07:43
gnarfacegood07:43
KatolaZa library can be used by many packages...07:44
KatolaZso07:44
gnarfacesome packages then can have dependencies that are the same, or a superset of other packages' dependencies, right?07:44
KatolaZthat's pretty unusual, but can happen...07:44
gnarfaceyou at least admit that is theoretically possible, ok good07:44
gnarfacehere's the problem07:44
gnarfaceyou're wrong in thinking that it is unusual07:45
gnarfaceunless you misunderstood the word "superset"07:45
KatolaZstop gnarface07:45
KatolaZif you install all the possible packages in the repos, that is definitely a superset of all the dependencies...07:45
gnarfaceno no no no07:45
gnarfacenow you're stopping me before i'm getting to the point07:45
KatolaZdo you have a concrete example?07:46
KatolaZok sorry07:46
gnarfaceSteam?07:46
KatolaZplease go on07:46
gnarfaceffs07:46
KatolaZyes07:46
KatolaZlet's talk about steam, if you like07:46
gnarfacesteam07:46
gnarfacefirefox07:46
gnarfaceglxgears07:46
gnarfacemplayer07:46
KatolaZ(but don't blame me :))07:46
gnarfacempv07:46
gnarfaceaudacious07:46
gnarfacedo you want me to just list every multimedia program ?07:46
gnarfaceeverything that depends on sdl or opengl?07:46
gnarfacedoes that make sense yet?07:46
KatolaZwhat?07:46
KatolaZthat they depend on sdl or opengl?07:47
KatolaZyes07:47
KatolaZthey might07:47
KatolaZor they do07:47
KatolaZkeep going07:47
KatolaZ(and if they do, those deps are listed in the corresponding package)07:47
gnarfacei'm asserting that Steam's client and various library of games' dependencies are a superset of pretty much MOST of the multimedia productivity and entertainment programs, closed or open-source, on Linux07:47
gnarfaceif you can't get Steam to work with opengl, probably glxgears and firefox aren't able to use it either07:48
KatolaZthe latter one is probably speculation, though :)07:48
gnarfaceno, i do this a lot so it's not speculation.  i know what i'm talking about here.  i know how much trouble this is to set up (almost none) and how much trouble it is to find the information on how to set it up (damn near impossible without a Sherpa guide) and i'm just asserting we can just bundle some of that stuff into a task07:49
KatolaZbut go on please07:49
KatolaZgnarface: then put ut a webpage07:49
KatolaZwith instructions07:49
KatolaZget feedback from the users07:49
gnarfacealready too much work and those exist07:49
KatolaZput together this "meta-package"07:49
gnarfacethere's no reason there can't be non-free tasks too07:49
KatolaZhave users using it07:50
KatolaZand testing it07:50
gnarfacethere'd need to be realistically probably 307:50
KatolaZgnarface: the reason is that non-free stuff is not part of the distro07:50
gnarfaceone for AMD, one for Nvidia, and one for Intel07:50
KatolaZno gnarface07:50
KatolaZthere would need to be one for any specific hardware conf07:50
gnarfacearen't tasks just meta-packages though?  can't tasks go in non-free though?07:50
KatolaZif it were that simple07:50
KatolaZthree sets of instructions would have been enough07:50
gnarfacethere's only 3 base hardware configurations relevant here07:51
KatolaZand you said that it varies a lot across different hw configs07:51
KatolaZgnarface: if you want that task, work on it please07:51
KatolaZI am serious07:51
gnarfacei thought you were just pissing on it and trivializing the idea though?07:51
KatolaZif there are enough people interested on it, please do it07:51
gnarfacebut then we'll get a bunch of users you hate07:52
KatolaZI am triviliasing the idea that one can ask for anything and whining if it is not done by *others*07:52
KatolaZgnarface: o_O07:52
KatolaZI am not capable of hating anybody man... :\07:52
gnarfaceyou do seem ready to leave the unindoctrinated out in the cold07:53
KatolaZI am fighting to get Devuan as much inclusive as possible07:53
gnarfaceif that's not hate i don't know what is07:53
KatolaZI don't run a DE and I have helped a lot people wanting to include elogind and other stuff to support DEs07:53
KatolaZo_O07:54
gnarfaceoh wow you don't even use a linux desktop??07:54
KatolaZgnarface: you are shooting the wrong bird mate07:54
KatolaZI use xmonad07:54
gnarfaceyes, i realized i'm having the conversation with the wrong person here07:54
KatolaZif that is of any interest to you07:54
KatolaZI am just saying, if you want something to happen, work for it07:54
KatolaZwaiting for others to do that won't lead anywhere07:54
KatolaZand please, read again what I have said tomorrow. go through it and you will not find any hate or prejudice07:55
KatolaZbut please, don't ask me to work on something I don't have a clue about07:56
gnarfacethat's a fair statement, now i understand that you thought i was asking you for help with something you don't give a shit about.  that's where our miscommunication happened.  i was offering my help with something it seemed obvious was needed.07:56
KatolaZgreat gnarface07:56
KatolaZplease help with that then07:56
gnarfaceand i met INSTANT resistance and from you07:56
KatolaZo_O07:56
KatolaZresistance?07:56
gnarfaceand you failed to even read my whole statement07:56
gnarfaceyea07:56
KatolaZoh lord07:56
KatolaZI said, go for it07:56
KatolaZdo it07:56
KatolaZput it together07:56
KatolaZmake it real07:56
gnarfaceyou wanted to rant on about how Steam will bring hordes of freeloaders and nothing of value07:56
KatolaZgnarface: my point was not about steam man07:57
KatolaZagain07:57
KatolaZI have tried to explain it several times07:57
gnarfacewithout realizing that getting Steam working is a super-set for getting nearly everything working07:57
gnarfacelike EVERYTHING07:57
KatolaZgnarface: for some definition of "working" man07:57
gnarfacefrom a desktop-users perspective07:57
gnarfaceyea07:57
gnarfaceworking07:57
KatolaZgnarface: we don';t have that hordes of Devuan desktop users moaing about their desktops being non-functional07:58
KatolaZso maybe you should also consider that what is "right" for you, might not be even a need for others07:58
gnarfaceno of course not, we have about 2-3 a week07:58
KatolaZI am just saying :)07:58
KatolaZgnarface: and they whine about steam, probably :)07:58
KatolaZwhich is fair07:58
KatolaZgiven that probably there are 40-50k Devuans out there07:59
KatolaZmaybe more07:59
gnarfacewe get a solid 2-3 a week rage-quitting after fumbling around with video driver support in general.07:59
KatolaZok gnarface07:59
KatolaZif you are willing to help on that, please do07:59
gnarfaceDebian has always been dismissive of those people and i don't think its smart07:59
KatolaZbut don;t expect others to do it for you ;)07:59
gnarfacemy shit already works dude!07:59
KatolaZgnarface: have you read what I have been saying?07:59
KatolaZoh ok08:00
KatolaZthen problem solved :(08:00
gnarfaceyea and you're still really looking down from what you think is a high perch above me and i don't like it08:00
KatolaZmy shit would work on Debian as well08:00
KatolaZo_O08:00
gnarfacehow's that relevant to the conversation?08:00
gnarfacei never suggested it wouldn't08:00
KatolaZthat I could avoid to contribute a little to Devuan08:01
KatolaZif I was only looking at what works for me08:01
KatolaZ:\08:01
KatolaZfinal statement: if you want something to happen, make it happen08:01
gnarfaceyea, so why do you think that is what i'm talking about here?  i still get the picture that you think i need help installing nvidia drivers and that's why i'm asking for this task08:01
KatolaZnope gnarface08:01
KatolaZI know you don't need that help08:02
KatolaZyou are the one who helps people with that here08:02
gnarfacewhereas we had an earlier conversation about gathering man power and i was merely suggesting some things i knew Debian would never try to accomplish that08:02
KatolaZgnarface: this is not Debian08:02
KatolaZit's Devuan08:02
KatolaZI am saying, get your knowledge to work08:02
gnarfaceone of those things would be to not leave gamers out in the cold, but right now we still do.08:02
iv4nshm4kovAIUI, both Debian and Devuan are, first and foremost, a bunch of unpaid volunteers. When they get interested in something – phylology, astrophysics, Steam – they make it happen. When not – well, you get from them about as much as you’ve paid for.08:02
KatolaZmake it available to others08:02
KatolaZdo something08:02
KatolaZbut waiting for others to do something it's not gonna work08:03
KatolaZI don't want to leave gamers in the cold08:03
gnarfaceif i were to submit the very first non-free task .deb to devuan, what are the chances you'd actually let it go in the distro?08:03
KatolaZgnarface: make it work first08:03
iv4nshm4kovgnarface can be one of these volunteers. Or not. It’s what software freedom is all about.08:03
KatolaZI started working on the minimal live without knowing that it would have been accepted as one of the official images08:04
KatolaZI just worked on it08:04
KatolaZfor about one year08:04
KatolaZgetting feedback08:04
KatolaZimproving it08:04
KatolaZmaking it work08:04
KatolaZand then it was felt that it was a useful addition08:04
KatolaZit's really that easy08:05
KatolaZI didn't expect any of that to happen08:05
KatolaZI was just scratching a personal itch08:05
gnarfacemy intentions are more altruistic than that08:06
iv4nshm4kovKatolaZ: So, it boils down to Will and Presentation? (SCNR.)08:06
KatolaZgnarface: do it08:06
KatolaZmake it happen08:06
KatolaZif it has value, it will fly08:06
KatolaZin whatever form08:06
KatolaZiv4nshm4kov: it boils down to will, IMHO08:06
gnarfaceso you say, but right now you're leaving me with the impression you're gonna 90% certainly say it has no value without even trying it08:06
KatolaZgnarface: I haven't said that08:07
KatolaZand I am pretty bored of your attitude08:07
KatolaZyou can keep making any retro-thinking08:07
KatolaZthat won't hep08:07
iv4nshm4kovKatolaZ: If you fail to present your work as useful to the community, it has little chance to be accepted, IMO.08:07
gnarface*MY* attitude?08:07
KatolaZI am *encouraging* you08:07
gnarface*MY* retro-thinking?08:07
KatolaZcan you see that?08:07
gnarfaceyou're dismissing me08:07
KatolaZI am *encouraging* you to *contribute*08:07
iv4nshm4kovKatolaZ: But I was just referencing a rather well-known book.08:07
KatolaZgnarface: this is silly... where I am dismissing you? o_O08:08
gnarfaceyou just said you were pretty bored of my attitude08:08
KatolaZyes because it leads nowhere08:08
KatolaZgo do the damn thing :)08:08
KatolaZmake it happen08:09
gnarfaceand that's not the only dismissive statement you've met my suggestions with08:09
KatolaZinstead of saying "oh, but you won't like it"08:09
KatolaZgo for it08:09
KatolaZdo it08:09
KatolaZmake it happen08:09
gnarfacedude you shit right on my head and made me re-explain my argument repeatedly08:09
KatolaZgnarface: your argument won't get a task-package done08:10
gnarfaceif you think that closing with "fine go make it happen" is encouraging after THAT ...08:10
KatolaZonly your work will08:10
KatolaZthis is a fact08:10
gnarfacehere's the problem08:10
KatolaZyou might not like it08:10
KatolaZbut this is how things happen08:10
gnarfaceyou're STILL arguing with a cartoon interpretation of me08:10
KatolaZgnarface: I am not interpreting anything, and even less you08:10
KatolaZit's not about you08:10
KatolaZor about me08:11
gnarfaceit is, right now08:11
KatolaZok08:11
gnarfaceright now, this is about YOU and ME08:11
KatolaZ:D08:11
KatolaZshall we have a proper 15th century duel at dawn then? :D08:11
KatolaZI can just tell you that every single thing that has happened in Devuan in the last four years has happened because somebody has cared about it08:12
KatolaZand made it happen08:12
gnarfacenext time lead with "i don't care about that but its fine if you do"08:13
gnarfaceinstead of all the rest of the derogatory bullshit08:13
KatolaZgnarface: please cite where I have been "derogatory" or said "bullshit"08:13
gnarfaceno08:13
gnarfacei'm sure you know very well08:13
KatolaZor avoid to make sush statement08:13
KatolaZbecause it does not let you shine at all :)08:14
gnarfaceno, i'm done arguing in circles with you, you've made your point clear enough.08:14
KatolaZgreat08:14
KatolaZI won't add more08:14
KatolaZ:)08:14
gnarfacebtw just for reference08:14
KatolaZluckily the backlog is public :)08:14
KatolaZHND08:14
gnarfaceall last 5 lines were obviously derogatory08:14
gnarfaceseriously08:14
gnarfacei didn't bring up steam to offend you08:14
gnarfacebut i obviously did and you felt the need to retalliate08:15
KatolaZgnarface: there is nothing you can do to offend me08:15
KatolaZnothing at all08:15
gnarfacenow you're lying08:15
gnarfacebut we're also off topic08:15
KatolaZyes, please kick me out :)08:15
gnarfaceoh wow, you really DO need to get the last word in, don't you08:15
gnarface?08:15
gnarfacewtf is your problem today anyway?08:15
KatolaZit's nothing of your business mate :)08:16
gnarfacethan STOP TAKING IT OUT ON ME08:16
gnarfaceyou make it everyone's business when you pull this08:16
KatolaZo_O08:17
gnarfaceyou've not only trivialized my idea, you went further by making it personal08:17
gnarfacethat's ALL oh you08:17
gnarface*on you08:17
KatolaZgnarface: keep going if you like08:17
gnarfacewould you enjoy that?08:17
gnarfacewell, one thing is for sure, that's not gonna be a good way to attract new help08:24
Centurion_Danwhat is going on???10:10
Centurion_DanI step away and I miss all the fun??10:10
Centurion_DanKatolaZ, you really seem to take offence far to easily - I've never said we need to build everything now..... but I10:12
Centurion_Danwill continue to press the point that we do need to have a vision... not a fanciful dream, but real vision and think beyond just the bare minimum required to get the next release out.10:13
Centurion_DanWe need to realise that Debian might not be around next release... and if it is, it will require more work to remain tied to Debian's packages... this will continue... sometime it may not be possible to continue to use Debian's packages, so we need vision, we need to plan for that eventuality rather then just hoping Debian won't break too much for us for the next release.10:16
Centurion_DanKatolaZ, you've done very well to lead the push to get ascii over the line...10:17
Centurion_Danbut we need to be always looking forward and not simply dealing with the obstacles debian developers throw our way... and the next release is only part of that picture...10:19
KatolaZCenturion_Dan: I haven't taken any offence :)10:24
KatolaZI just made the point that "pressing" for something is not enough for that something to happen10:24
KatolaZand we know that very well10:25
KatolaZI really would like to have Devuan independent from DEbian10:25
KatolaZbut I realise it is not possible in the immediate future10:25
KatolaZI can keep working towards that goal, but the immediate future is working on beowulf10:25
KatolaZand putting in place the experimental/unstable/testing/stable pipeline10:25
KatolaZthat alone will require a lot of work10:26
KatolaZhaving a vision is fundamental10:26
KatolaZbut then we need people who actually implement that vision a10:26
KatolaZand *do* things10:26
cr1mson_kingHi, I couldn't find a wiki page about sysvinit, how to enable, disable, start, stop...14:05
fsmithredcr1mson_king, 'man update-rc.d'14:07
cr1mson_kingfsmithred, thanks14:08
fsmithredyou can also use the service command14:08
fsmithredfor start|stop|restart14:08
cr1mson_king'service apache2 start' for example ?14:08
fsmithredyes14:09
fsmithredor /etc/init.d/apache2 start14:09
FlibberTGibbetsilly question perhaps. have just set up a local dns server (bind9). all good using it over eth0 from local clients. but how do i prevent the laptop from querying that local IP when i'm connected to someone else's lan?15:30
FlibberTGibbetip address, should have said15:30
KatolaZFlibberTGibbet: is the DS server on the laptop?15:31
KatolaZs/DS/DNS15:32
KatolaZoh no15:32
KatolaZwait15:32
KatolaZit's on a local serve15:32
KatolaZserver15:32
KatolaZon your LAN15:32
KatolaZow do you configure the DNS on your laptop?15:32
KatolaZDCHP?15:32
FlibberTGibbetthe dns server is on a pi15:35
FlibberTGibbetlaptop uses dhcp15:36
KatolaZok15:36
KatolaZdoes the laptop get the DNS stuff from the dhcp server?15:36
FlibberTGibbetah.15:37
KatolaZor you set it up manually in resolc.conf?15:37
KatolaZ~resolv.conf15:37
FlibberTGibbeti put the dns server directly into resolv.conf on the laptop15:37
KatolaZthen you have answered yourself ;)15:37
FlibberTGibbetheh :)15:37
FlibberTGibbetyes, so remove it from resolv.conf and add the nameserver on the dhcp server settings...15:38
FlibberTGibbetd'oh15:38
KatolaZyes, may be an option15:38
KatolaZnormally the DHCP server provides a DNS server15:38
FlibberTGibbetwell,  currently the dhcp server is my router, so i could set it there and it's good for all automatically configured clients15:39
KatolaZyep15:39
KatolaZthis is how pretty much any other LAN you will connect to is configured to work15:39
KatolaZyou get a DNS server via DHCP15:39
FlibberTGibbetindeed. had forgotten doing exactly that at work in the old days :)15:39
* FlibberTGibbet needs to eat more omega 3 to boost the memory...15:40
FlibberTGibbetthanks anyway, KatolaZ15:41
KatolaZhaven't done much FlibberTGibbet :D15:43
KatolaZI should get omega3 as well15:43
KatolaZ:D15:43
FlibberTGibbetsometimes a reminder of the obvious is the biggest help!15:46
james1138_Hello all. The eariler tips about Whisker menu worked after all. Thanks!  New question. For some reason Kodi jumps to maximum volume when first starting up. Other apps like RadioTray do not. Is this a Kodi issue or PulseAudio issue?18:44
holla_james1138_: 1. try to toggle 'flat-volumes' in '/etc/pulse/daemon.conf' -- if that doesn't help, try to run without pulse: 'pasuspender kodi'19:18
james1138_I shall give that a try here later today. Thanks Holla19:18
james1138_I just looked now and it is set to "yes". Holla... should it be "no"?19:20
xrogaanso the ntp thing gets shut down with the network, but there is no provision for it and thus try to restart.20:04
xrogaanthere is a if-up.d/ntpdate but no if-down20:05
fsmithredxrogaan, ntpdate is a one-shot deal20:09
xrogaanI remember reading something about that, yes.20:09
fsmithredI usually just run it from command line when I want to calibrate20:09
fsmithredat home, that is20:09
xrogaanby the way, there is a bootlogd but it doesn't log shutdowns?20:09
fsmithredI don't think so20:10
fsmithredthere's some shutdown info in /var/log/messages20:11
xrogaanwhat I get during shutdown is this: WARNING: invoke-rc.d called during shutdown sequence\n enabling safe mode: initscript policy layer disabled20:43
xrogaanit just triggers me a bit.20:50
xrogaanoh, I'm not alone. https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=212620:51
xrogaanyay20:51
mtnmanhelp22:26
james1138I resolved the volume issue with pulseaudio. I just turned it off and use ALSA - https://kodi.wiki/view/PulseAudio/HOW-TO:_Disable_PulseAudio_and_use_ALSA_(without_removing_PulseAudio)_for_Ubuntu22:53
james1138...and install Volume Icon - https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=volumeicon22:54
james1138Things are A LOT Better. No app goes straight to max volume. Nice especially with headset.22:55
bozoniusjames1138:  :)   I got rid of pulse everywhere and I also feel better these days23:58

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