| mhabets | I'm on Jessie. Tried to install cpp-doc and was surprised to find it's in non-free. Does anybody know the reason for this? | 02:50 |
|---|---|---|
| Xenguy | Must be licensing of course | 03:00 |
| Xenguy | mhabets: ^^ | 03:00 |
| mhabets | Looks like it's due to the dependency on gcc-doc, and that is non-free. | 03:10 |
| NewGnuGuy | mhabets: Debian considers documentation that contain invariant sections as specified by the GNU Free Documentation License to be non-free. | 03:26 |
| NewGnuGuy | mhabets: Devuan, as a Debian downstream, automatically inherits Debian's handling of documentation packages. There has been some discussion recently as to what stance Devuan will take on the issue of the GNU FDL's invariant sections, but those discussions are still ongoing. | 03:31 |
| Xenguy | Choosing a suitable license is certainly a crucial step | 04:57 |
| Xenguy | Meaning you want to take the best step | 04:58 |
| furrymcgee | a different license would be a signal to distinguish | 07:49 |
| DeFender1031 | Hey all. It's been a while since I checked in. What's the status of ASCII? Is it considered stable yet? Is there a sane upgrade path from jessie that won't invole doing anything more than updating my sources.list? Will it work if I'm also including some additional repos which are geared toward debian rather than devuan (specifically virtualbox, deb-multimedia, trinity, and pale moon)? | 08:02 |
| gnarface | ascii is stable now | 08:03 |
| gnarface | no comment on the rest | 08:03 |
| NewGnuGuy | DeFender1031: See the release announcement linked in the channel topic | 08:04 |
| DeFender1031 | NewGnuGuy, I looked at it before I started typing. The "Latest" being Ascii Vs. "Stable" being Jessie in the channel topic confused me. | 08:06 |
| DeFender1031 | Or rather, made it not clear to me. | 08:06 |
| NewGnuGuy | DeFender1031: yes, it could be worded better. ASCII is stable. Jessie is oldstable. | 08:07 |
| DeFender1031 | Okay, so I see the upgrade instructions. No mention of whether the "stretch" versions of the additional repos I mentioned will work with ASCII though. | 08:08 |
| gnarface | safest bet is "no" | 08:09 |
| gnarface | but if you know what you're doing you can probably make it work | 08:09 |
| gnarface | i said i wasn't gonna comment but i changed my mind i'm gonna comment | 08:09 |
| gnarface | - debian would tell you these repos don't mix, too | 08:10 |
| NewGnuGuy | I know of no reason why they shouldn't work, but am not responsible for anything bad happening. Try at your own risk. | 08:10 |
| gnarface | - deb-multimedia was forced to change their name from debian-multimedia because of their persistent will to break everything | 08:10 |
| gnarface | - virtualbox, which i've never used, is up there with pulseaudio and mpv as causing an abnormally large amount of problems in the guise of being "easier" | 08:10 |
| gnarface | - pale moon didn't pass muster for debian either | 08:11 |
| gnarface | - never heard of trinity | 08:11 |
| NewGnuGuy | Trinity is the fork of KDE 3, right? | 08:11 |
| DeFender1031 | the question is really whether any of these things are tightly bound to systemd... as i understand it, only stuff that's systemd-specific will break under devuan | 08:11 |
| DeFender1031 | yes, trinity is kde3 | 08:12 |
| DeFender1031 | pale moon I can live without. the rest I very much rely on. | 08:12 |
| gnarface | https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt | 08:13 |
| gnarface | banned package list here | 08:13 |
| DeFender1031 | would that list the third-party packages though? | 08:13 |
| gnarface | nope, but it might list stuff from debian they depend on | 08:13 |
| DeFender1031 | mmm | 08:14 |
| DeFender1031 | interesting point | 08:14 |
| gnarface | if none of your 3rd party packages depend on any of the packages in the ban list, then likely you can make the upgrade work, though you may still manually have to correct some package dependency snarls | 08:14 |
| gnarface | if you depend on something in here though and don't know how to rebuild the package without it yourself, you're probably gonna have to look for alternatives | 08:15 |
| DeFender1031 | though there's no guarantee that these repos will work even if there's nothing on there that these repos depend on is there? Some package could still have been modified in such a way that they wont play nice, no? | 08:15 |
| gnarface | no guarantees in this universe, period. some would say death is guaranteed but i don't even feel that lucky. there's no guarantee those repos wouldn't cause trouble with debian either, for whatever that's worth. | 08:15 |
| DeFender1031 | sure, but that's not what I mean. | 08:16 |
| gnarface | if you have room to make a backup, you should do that before trying it | 08:16 |
| DeFender1031 | I mean, is it conceivable that something would work with debian's version of a package but not with devuan's? | 08:16 |
| gnarface | conceivable but unlikely, for the case of packages not dependent specifically on systemd or something related to it. | 08:17 |
| gnarface | most the packages aren't even different | 08:17 |
| gnarface | most of them are the same exact package as debian's | 08:17 |
| DeFender1031 | yeah, I'm not sure I'll be able to effectively back up everything that needs backing up... my install is spread over several drives and partitions. | 08:17 |
| gnarface | well make sure you back up /etc | 08:17 |
| DeFender1031 | it wouldn't be so bad if apt had an easy way to undo changes. | 08:17 |
| DeFender1031 | I mean, backing up my system drive should be no problem... I'm pretty sure all system stuff is on the same partition. I'm also worried about my user configs though... but I might just back those up separately... not sure. | 08:19 |
| gnarface | user configs should all be in ~/.* | 08:19 |
| gnarface | there are exceptions, but usually only for really atrociously badly behaved commercial software packages | 08:19 |
| gnarface | the debian release notes have a list of directories advised to be backed up | 08:20 |
| gnarface | here, from the jessie release notes from debian: | 08:20 |
| gnarface | The main things you'll want to back up are the contents of /etc, /var/lib/dpkg, /var/lib/apt/extended_states and the output of dpkg --get-selections "*" (the quotes are important). If you use aptitude to manage packages on your system, you will also want to back up /var/lib/aptitude/pkgstates. | 08:20 |
| gnarface | (i would personally also add /home and /usr/local to that) | 08:21 |
| DeFender1031 | /home is a problem, it has a partition jump in its directory tree... | 08:22 |
| gnarface | you can tell tar "--one-file-system" and it won't jump partitions | 08:22 |
| DeFender1031 | hmm | 08:22 |
| gnarface | the primary cause of 3rd party repo conflicts just comes down to version dependencies | 08:23 |
| gnarface | if they put a version of something in there with a higher number than what is in ascii currently, it would block the upgrade for that pacakge | 08:23 |
| gnarface | *package | 08:23 |
| gnarface | the fix would be to just force removal/replacement of that pacakge, but the error messages may be a little confusing, especially in the case of a chain of dependencies that all have to be replaced in this fashion | 08:24 |
| DeFender1031 | so you're saying it's unlikely that a package of the proper version but with systemd-averting modifications would cause issues with a third-party repo that depends on it? | 08:24 |
| DeFender1031 | yeah, I've encountered dependency chains that were like that and were very much not fun to try to fix. | 08:24 |
| gnarface | yea, that's what i'm saying, but its based on anecdotal evidence | 08:25 |
| DeFender1031 | hmm | 08:25 |
| DeFender1031 | well let's see... the list of banned packages for ascii isn't too long. | 08:26 |
| gnarface | another similar cause of such snags would be "forgetting you used backports for something once" | 08:26 |
| DeFender1031 | I wonder if there's an easy way to get a list of packages that these repos depend on and cross-refrence... | 08:27 |
| DeFender1031 | what do you mean "forgetting you used backports for something once"? | 08:27 |
| gnarface | well backport versions are higher too | 08:27 |
| DeFender1031 | ah | 08:27 |
| DeFender1031 | aptitude usually tends to do a decent job of sorting out backport-sourced version conflicts though | 08:28 |
| gnarface | i'll take your word for that | 08:28 |
| gnarface | i never touch it, myself | 08:28 |
| NewGnuGuy | DeFender1031: `aptitude why pkgname` and `aptitude why-not pkgname` are great for determining the dependency chain of an installed package and what would keep a new package from being installed, respectively | 08:28 |
| gnarface | ah that's a good tip | 08:29 |
| DeFender1031 | I usually use apt, but occasionally when there's something like that, aptitude is sometimes smarter about resolutions... example, I once had a conflict where apt was like "resolve by uninstalling these 513 packages" and aptitude's first proposal was that, but then the second one was "downgrade this one package" | 08:29 |
| gnarface | interesting | 08:30 |
| gnarface | well maybe it will work to resolve any conflicts with the 3rd party repos just as well | 08:30 |
| gnarface | you might want to remove their repos from your sources.list during the upgrade though | 08:30 |
| DeFender1031 | NewGnuGuy, useful, but I'd have to already upgrade to do that... though I suppose I could theoretically install ascii in a virtual machine, add the repos I want there, and then why-not all of the packages I'm using... but that can be a pain and if I forget one, there could be hell to pay. | 08:31 |
| DeFender1031 | btw, I want to say again how awesome I think this channel is for being super chill and patient and not making me feel like an idiot or like just because I don't know how to do these things that I'm just wasting people's time. I get that far too often in help channels and it's refreshing that this one isn't like that. | 08:34 |
| NewGnuGuy | :-D | 08:34 |
| DeFender1031 | hmm... is there a way to get a list of installed packages limited to a specific repo they came from? E.G. if I want a list of every package I have installed that's from deb-multimedia, is there a simple way to do it? | 08:35 |
| gnarface | there should be, but i'm drawing a blank off the top of my head | 08:37 |
| NewGnuGuy | DeFender1031: I can do that trivially in synaptic; I don't know off the top of my head how to do that from the commandline. | 08:37 |
| gnarface | there is usually a distinct version | 08:38 |
| DeFender1031 | I have synaptic installed... I don't care how I get the list. | 08:38 |
| DeFender1031 | NewGnuGuy, how I do dat? | 08:38 |
| NewGnuGuy | DeFender1031: Origin button in the lower left | 08:39 |
| DeFender1031 | NewGnuGuy, dang, that's simple | 08:39 |
| NewGnuGuy | :-D | 08:40 |
| DeFender1031 | Well, I think I still have to go through and look at only those that are installed (I think that's what this green checkbox thing is?) but still, this works | 08:41 |
| DeFender1031 | Or I could NOT be an idiot and actually sort it by that field... | 08:43 |
| NewGnuGuy | that would help lol | 08:43 |
| gnarface | i'm looking at deb-multimedia.org and it appears all their packages contain the version suffix "-dmo#" where "#" is a single-digit number | 08:44 |
| DeFender1031 | hmm... why don't I see the virtualbox repo on here at all? | 08:44 |
| KatolaZ | DeFender1031: you can also use dpkg --get-selections | 08:44 |
| KatolaZ | and then dpkg --set-selections | 08:44 |
| KatolaZ | ... | 08:44 |
| DeFender1031 | or pale moon | 08:44 |
| KatolaZ | (if it's just a matter of getting a list of packages replicated on another box) | 08:45 |
| DeFender1031 | I know I have both | 08:45 |
| DeFender1031 | KatolaZ, nah, this is about whether it's safe to upgrade to ascii and whether a bunch of third-party repos with debian targets will work with ascii if I use their stretch versions | 08:46 |
| NewGnuGuy | DeFender1031: Are they commented out accidently in you sources.list? | 08:46 |
| DeFender1031 | NewGnuGuy, nope. and I know I have them installed, I use them all the time. | 08:46 |
| DeFender1031 | (Well, I use VB all the time. Dunno when the last time I opened pale moon was) | 08:46 |
| gnarface | DeFender1031: check in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ | 08:51 |
| DeFender1031 | what am I looking for? | 08:52 |
| gnarface | any files at all | 08:52 |
| gnarface | files containing the repo urls you thought were in /etc/apt/sources.list | 08:52 |
| gnarface | google and opera's stuff used to put them in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ anyway | 08:53 |
| DeFender1031 | I have two there a devuan.list which is all commented out lines and a google-chrome.list which has the chrome repo | 08:53 |
| gnarface | huh | 08:53 |
| gnarface | i wonder where else they could have gone | 08:53 |
| DeFender1031 | oh, I didn't make myself clear | 08:53 |
| DeFender1031 | the lines are in my sources.list | 08:53 |
| DeFender1031 | but they're not showing up in the origin tab in synaptic. | 08:53 |
| gnarface | oh, yea, i thought you were saying they weren't in the sources.list | 08:54 |
| DeFender1031 | yeah, I realized I was ambiguous | 08:54 |
| DeFender1031 | I also realized that the chrome one is kinda-sorta a third party repo too technically, though given its popularity I can't imagine it wouldn't work with devuan | 08:55 |
| KatolaZ | DeFender1031: apt-cache policy | 08:55 |
| KatolaZ | will show you all your active repos | 08:55 |
| KatolaZ | if that helps | 08:55 |
| NewGnuGuy | DeFender1031: maybe the origin tab only shows repos from which you have installed packages. What repos are listed? | 08:55 |
| KatolaZ | apt-cache policy | 08:56 |
| DeFender1031 | KatolaZ, nah, trying to get a list of all packages manually installed from specific repos so that I can backtrack their dependencies in stretch and make sure none of them are on ascii's banned package list. | 08:57 |
| DeFender1031 | NewGnuGuy, like I said, I know for a fact I have VB installed, but the VB repo isn't showing up in that tab. | 08:57 |
| KatolaZ | DeFender1031: and what's your plan to achieve that? | 08:58 |
| DeFender1031 | what do you mean? I was planning to check each package's dependency chain and cross-reference it with the banned list | 08:58 |
| KatolaZ | mmmhhh | 08:59 |
| KatolaZ | you want to do that on jessie? | 08:59 |
| KatolaZ | to be sure whether you can upgrade to ascii? | 08:59 |
| gnarface | KatolaZ: yes, he said he has virtualbox, deb-multimedia, trinity, and pale moonvirtualbox, deb-multimedia, trinity, and pale moon, and chrome repos | 09:00 |
| gnarface | KatolaZ: i told him it might work but he should make a backup first | 09:00 |
| gnarface | he specifically wanted to avoid having to work out package dependency conflicts manually during the upgrade | 09:01 |
| gnarface | from my recollection i couldn't guarantee that was possible | 09:02 |
| DeFender1031 | KatolaZ, well, my plan was to figure out which third-party packages I actually use currently on jessie, and check their dependency lists in stretch for the cross refrence to ascii, to make sure that an upgrade to stretch/ascii would be viable | 09:02 |
| gnarface | but i also know there's a wide variation on how much trouble the conflicts could be: anywhere from trivial to nightmarish | 09:02 |
| DeFender1031 | KatolaZ, another option for me would be installing ascii in a VM and then seeing if installing the third-party packages works there. but for either option, I'd still need the list of packages I'm currently using to make sure I don't forget any. | 09:03 |
| gnarface | DeFender1031: you might even be able to pull off that test in a chroot install | 09:07 |
| gnarface | for most the packages in question, anyway, it will behave the same | 09:07 |
| DeFender1031 | hmm... perhaps. | 09:08 |
| NewGnuGuy | DeFender1031: FWIW, `apt list --installed | grep --invert-match ,automatic] | grep --invert-match Listing | sed s%/.*$%%` will return a list of all manually installed packages | 09:08 |
| DeFender1031 | I don't even really have to run the programs, just make sure they can install. still, a VM might be safer. I've never done a chroot install before | 09:09 |
| Jjp137 | map | 09:09 |
| Jjp137 | oops wrong window | 09:09 |
| DeFender1031 | map indeed. | 09:09 |
| DeFender1031 | NewGnuGuy, I suppose installing everything I have installed manually (including those from official repos) would test just as well... | 09:11 |
| DeFender1031 | okay, so I guess I'll attempt it in vm with these repos and see what happens. | 09:13 |
| NewGnuGuy | Let us know the results | 09:13 |
| DeFender1031 | (and all I really wanted to do right now is see if I can get OBS Studio working... aw well... down the rabbit hole we go.) | 09:14 |
| gnarface | good luck, man | 09:14 |
| NewGnuGuy | nothing like a good yak-shaving | 09:15 |
| DeFender1031 | yak-shaving? | 09:15 |
| NewGnuGuy | http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/Y/yak-shaving.html | 09:16 |
| DeFender1031 | prettymuch | 09:37 |
| DeFender1031 | welp... after downloading the netinstall and doing the whole installation process... ASCII freezes on startup in VM. | 10:06 |
| gnarface | interesting... | 10:06 |
| gnarface | before or after grub? | 10:07 |
| DeFender1031 | After login... | 10:07 |
| gnarface | oh | 10:08 |
| gnarface | which WM? | 10:08 |
| DeFender1031 | KDE | 10:08 |
| DeFender1031 | oh wait | 10:08 |
| DeFender1031 | uh... | 10:08 |
| gnarface | just slow? | 10:08 |
| DeFender1031 | not sure? | 10:08 |
| gnarface | oh | 10:08 |
| gnarface | xfce is the default | 10:08 |
| DeFender1031 | Are you using WM and DE interchangably? | 10:08 |
| DeFender1031 | maybe just slow... | 10:09 |
| DeFender1031 | or maybe not enough ram? | 10:09 |
| gnarface | yes, interchangeably | 10:09 |
| DeFender1031 | so then yeah, KDE | 10:09 |
| gnarface | it could be a ram issue, i don't know | 10:09 |
| DeFender1031 | I just gave it more ram, let's see if that helps | 10:09 |
| gnarface | if you don't have swap, make sure /proc/sys/vm/swappiness is 0 | 10:10 |
| gnarface | defaults to 60 | 10:10 |
| DeFender1031 | It set up some swap... I basically did default install for everything because I don't actually care about those settings for this test. | 10:11 |
| DeFender1031 | Nope. more ram didn't help. I get the gear-k logo and a spinning trail below it that spins around 3 or 4 times and then stops. | 10:11 |
| gnarface | maybe it is missing some vbox driver package? | 10:12 |
| DeFender1031 | that doesn't make much sense... I've run linux in vbox before. | 10:12 |
| DeFender1031 | with kde | 10:12 |
| gnarface | well ubuntu would have included the package by default | 10:13 |
| DeFender1031 | what package? | 10:13 |
| gnarface | not sure, probably virtualbox-guest-additions-iso | 10:14 |
| gnarface | or one of the ones named virtualbox-guest* | 10:14 |
| gnarface | they're in non-free | 10:15 |
| DeFender1031 | those are usually things that make it integrate better... I've never encountered having it not work at all without it | 10:15 |
| gnarface | my hypothesis consists of blaming the video drivers in the guest of crashing under kde's default-on compositing | 10:15 |
| gnarface | maybe the guest additions can fix it | 10:16 |
| gnarface | you could try disabling compositing first too | 10:16 |
| gnarface | its just a hypothesis | 10:16 |
| DeFender1031 | default-on compositing... huh. | 10:16 |
| DeFender1031 | okay... remind me how to get to a command line inside a vm without logging into the de? | 10:16 |
| gnarface | if you installed a graphical login manager | 10:17 |
| gnarface | you might be able to sidestep it with ctrl+alt+F2 | 10:17 |
| DeFender1031 | that just sends my host system to its own console | 10:17 |
| DeFender1031 | I don't remember how to do that for the guest | 10:17 |
| gnarface | there's some trick to it | 10:18 |
| gnarface | maybe virtualbox specific | 10:18 |
| gnarface | you could try adding the left option/windows key in though | 10:18 |
| gnarface | that works for wine | 10:18 |
| gnarface | ctrl+left_super_L+alt+F2 | 10:18 |
| gnarface | (or something like that) | 10:18 |
| DeFender1031 | that also sent my host system to console... hmm... | 10:19 |
| gnarface | sorry, you'll have to check the virtualbox docs. there's probably a different hotkey to bind the modifier keys to the guest window | 10:19 |
| DeFender1031 | right. | 10:20 |
| gnarface | no sshd running on the guest? | 10:21 |
| gnarface | maybe the whole thing didn't lock up | 10:21 |
| gnarface | it could just be X | 10:21 |
| DeFender1031 | okay, so it's just "host+f2" | 10:24 |
| DeFender1031 | and yeah, the whole thing locks up. can't switch back to the f2 terminal after the freeze | 10:24 |
| gnarface | can you access the filesystem and see the logs? | 10:25 |
| gnarface | by mounting the guest image or something? | 10:25 |
| DeFender1031 | probably. what logs should I be looking at? | 10:26 |
| DeFender1031 | nah, I can get there from the f2 console | 10:26 |
| gnarface | you mean can't? | 10:26 |
| gnarface | oh can | 10:26 |
| gnarface | ok | 10:26 |
| gnarface | i don't know vbox | 10:27 |
| gnarface | anyway, look in /var/log | 10:27 |
| gnarface | syslog, kern.log, Xorg.0.log, daemon.log | 10:27 |
| gnarface | basically all the top-level log files, see what the last things written to them were | 10:28 |
| gnarface | Xorg.0.log may be in ~/.local/share/xorg | 10:28 |
| DeFender1031 | nothing in any of those logs looks off. | 10:31 |
| DeFender1031 | and I'm shaving even more yaks for some reason... | 10:32 |
| DeFender1031 | I think I'm giving up for tonight. this was one yak too many | 10:35 |
| gnarface | sorry, can't say what's going on | 10:36 |
| gnarface | i'd try it with qemu-kvm | 10:36 |
| DeFender1031 | if it IS a problem with kde's default-on compositing, then there's a chicken-and-egg problem. | 10:36 |
| gnarface | you can't disable it by editing a file, then just restart the guest? | 10:36 |
| DeFender1031 | I could if I had any inkling what file i'd need to edit and in what way to edit it. | 10:37 |
| gnarface | for that matter, could you install the guest addition package then restart it? | 10:37 |
| gnarface | you know, just to see if that makes the problem magically go away | 10:37 |
| DeFender1031 | I suppose I could, but adding the repo to the sources list will be annoying without the gui because I can't copy and paste. | 10:38 |
| DeFender1031 | fine... one more yak. | 10:38 |
| DeFender1031 | nope, chicken and egg, guest additions needs display to install. | 10:52 |
| DeFender1031 | so maybe if I install xfce, it will work and I can install guest additions from there? hmm... | 11:02 |
| errandir | Or boot with initlevel 1 (edit the command line in grub), disable the graphical stuff, and then try to boot into text mode. | 11:05 |
| DeFender1031 | nope, xfce freezes too... :( | 11:05 |
| FlibberTGibbet | i installed the debian version of letsencrypt as downloaded from letsencrypt's site. i can see the results of scheduled renewal attempts in /var/log/letsencrypt/* but i'm not sure how, given the entry in /etc/cron.d/certbot: | 11:31 |
| FlibberTGibbet | 0 */12 * * * root test -x /usr/bin/certbot -a \! -d /run/systemd/system && perl -e 'sleep int(rand(3600))' && certbot -q renew | 11:31 |
| FlibberTGibbet | there *is* a /run/systemd directory (courtesy of libsystemd0??) but nothing inside called 'system' | 11:32 |
| FlibberTGibbet | so i'm wondering how the 'certbot -q renew' is ever reached... | 11:32 |
| gnarface | ! EXPRESSION | 11:34 |
| gnarface | EXPRESSION is false | 11:34 |
| FlibberTGibbet | d'oh | 11:34 |
| FlibberTGibbet | so it should just skip that part, yes? | 11:34 |
| gnarface | no, its actually making sure that directory does not exist | 11:35 |
| gnarface | there is a man page for `test` | 11:35 |
| gnarface | it will show you all the dirty details on a very compact few pages | 11:35 |
| gnarface | having had a primer in boolean logic helps a lot to make sense of it though | 11:36 |
| FlibberTGibbet | which i shall now read -- thanks for the hint. wasn't aware that \! was invoking test until now :) | 11:36 |
| gnarface | it's just sort of assumed that you know the formal definitions of "and", "or", and "not" | 11:36 |
| FlibberTGibbet | yup, can even mangle a karnaugh map :) | 11:36 |
| FlibberTGibbet | would be useful to read those pages so i'll put that on today's reading list... | 11:37 |
| FlibberTGibbet | thanks | 11:37 |
| gnarface | no problem | 11:37 |
| KatolaZ | have you tried the test on you shell? | 11:43 |
| FlibberTGibbet | good idea. back in a minute | 11:44 |
| KatolaZ | :) | 11:44 |
| KatolaZ | the condition looks for /usr/bin/certbot being executable AND /run/systemd/system NOT being a directory | 11:44 |
| KatolaZ | just try: test -x /usr/bin/certbot -a \! -d /run/systemd/system && echo true | 11:45 |
| FlibberTGibbet | yup, just did tested both parts and in combination and it worked. was using echo $? on the following line but && echo true is much nicer. thanks. | 11:46 |
| KatolaZ | np | 11:46 |
| KatolaZ | that package should be amended I guess | 11:46 |
| KatolaZ | and maybe pushed upstream | 11:46 |
| FlibberTGibbet | just checked apt-cache policy certbot and it did come from the repos rather than a download from letsencrypt.org so yes, perhaps might be useful to tweak that in the package | 11:51 |
| KatolaZ | yeah | 11:51 |
| FlibberTGibbet | there was another package whose docs mentioned that an example sysv script was only provided as a legacy thing, whereas all sane people would be using systemd, or something along those lines. i'll see if i can find what that was -- didn't sit very well with the devuan box on which it was running! | 11:54 |
| inerkick | Hi.. Need a bit info | 13:16 |
| inerkick | Which ISO to be downloaded? I got i3 machine with 2GB RAM, 64bit machine. And I wanted to instal devuan in it, already have 2 distro , Windows and linuxmint. | 13:17 |
| KatolaZ | inerkick: if you have a good internet connection, you can go for the NETINST image | 13:17 |
| inerkick | i don't have good internet | 13:17 |
| KatolaZ | I reckon my statement depends on the definition of "good internet connection" though | 13:18 |
| KatolaZ | then get the DVD | 13:18 |
| inerkick | I meant like I can't keep downloading and installing . I can try one way as download once | 13:18 |
| inerkick | I was initialy thought of downloading the devuan ascii CD1 installer ISO | 13:19 |
| inerkick | Will that be good enough? | 13:19 |
| inerkick | I heard a long time ago someone said that don't use download live since it can't be used for installation, So I thought to try NETINST but my internet is kind of not so good all the time and I wonder if it's kind of tricky considering I already have data in the drive, so needed something which installs basic features to get up and running and than help me install additional package | 13:23 |
| djph | so just grab the full dvd-sized iso (rather than the netinst), and work from there | 13:29 |
| inerkick | ok | 13:32 |
| Woodi | 'something which installs basic features to get up and running and than helps install additional packages' is netinst definition, IMO :) and with proper distributions like debian-likes almoust everything is inet-updated constantly :) | 14:11 |
| jonadab | Hmm. Installed k3b using apt, but on running, it says "Unable to find cdrecord executable K3b uses cdrecord to actually write CDs. Solution: Install the cdrtools package which contains cdrecord." | 16:06 |
| jonadab | But there doesn't appear to be a cdrtools package, and apt-cache search cdrecord only comes up with rhythmbox-plugin-cdrecorder, which seems likely to be unrelated. | 16:06 |
| gnarface | it has been renamed to wodim | 16:09 |
| gnarface | a really long time ago, actually | 16:09 |
| jonadab | Hmm. wodim is already the newest version. | 16:10 |
| jonadab | I guess I need to create a symlink. | 16:10 |
| jonadab | Heh. Then it has a similar complaint about growisofs | 16:11 |
| jonadab | Which however IS installed. | 16:12 |
| jonadab | Odd. | 16:12 |
| jonadab | Ah, hmm, seems to be working now. Very odd behavior, though. | 16:17 |
| james1138 | General question. I read that Debian 9.5 is out. Since Devuan ASCII is based on Debian 9... how difficult would be a minor upgrade? | 16:50 |
| KatolaZ | james1138: what for? | 16:50 |
| KatolaZ | you just apt-get update && apt-get upgrade | 16:51 |
| james1138 | Just thought about keeping stretch/stable up to date Katolaz. | 16:53 |
| KatolaZ | james1138: apt-get && apt-get upgrade :) | 16:53 |
| james1138 | okay | 16:55 |
| KatolaZ | james1138: we currently have about 30 among install, live, and arm images | 17:02 |
| KatolaZ | most of the users will select security upgrades anyway during install | 17:02 |
| KatolaZ | and will download them | 17:03 |
| KatolaZ | which equals "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" | 17:03 |
| KatolaZ | and the actual number of upgraded packages since ASCII images went out is not huge | 17:03 |
| KatolaZ | about 22 in total | 17:04 |
| golinux | DeFender1031: Palemoon has an issue with their licensing | 17:18 |
| golinux | which is questionable. Actually I think it's with the copyright for the name | 17:19 |
| golinux | But it's a perfectly fine browser. | 17:25 |
| ivanshmakov | golinux: That’s debatable. See http://howtogeek.com/335712/, for example. | 18:24 |
| tradar | that article talks about every one but the most important fork of firefox | 18:28 |
| tradar | GNU icecat | 18:28 |
| Digit | :) | 18:28 |
| ivanshmakov | FWIW, I can’t entirely agree with the article. For one thing, I don’t see how using a less secure browser that works is any worse than using a more secure one that doesn’t. And for me, Firefox > 52 doesn’t work, alas. | 18:45 |
| tradar | actually all that talking about a stronger security from mozilla is delusional. I like that logic only because i find it funny, amusing. At first they somehow admit their browser is bugged like s##t then they basically announce that "all ff forks are bugged." OK no wonder why. They claim their browser is the safest browser and the only one to trust since it is the first one to get bug fixes. Just not | 19:06 |
| tradar | accounting for the several months 0day exploits were in the wild and affected firefox like any other of its forks. | 19:06 |
| golinux | I stumbled on the first sentence that quantum is "more modern". That's NEVER a good thing IMO. | 19:13 |
| tradar | i follow your same way of thinking golinux marketing babbling raises always a red flag | 19:19 |
| ivanshmakov | tradar: Mozilla Corp. still has more employees to fix the bugs than any fork maintainers can hope for. At the same time, diverging from the Mozilla code base opens forks to fork-specific bugs, knowledge of which may never transpire to the public. | 19:43 |
| ivanshmakov | But the problem, as I see it, is not that fork maintainers don’t have necessary workforce for such a complex project, but that the project got way too complex to be any good. | 19:43 |
| tradar | indeed | 19:44 |
| tradar | not to mention the fact that those bugs were likely pushed into firefox right from the /more employees/ at mozilla | 19:45 |
| _stephen_ | do most use browsers from the repos or do you download/compile from elsewhere? | 19:56 |
| ivanshmakov | tradar: “Programming is a strange game: the only way not to make bugs is not to play.” | 20:07 |
| fsmithred | _stephen_, https://popcon.devuan.org/tmp-www/by_votes.html | 20:07 |
| tradar | yes ok, it's a real war game :) | 20:07 |
| fsmithred | I have to agree with that statement | 20:07 |
| tradar | but basically a programmer begins to fail when he forgets about the KISS mentality. a good way 'to make' bugs is to create bloatwares. A good way not to generate extra bugs is not to add extra code, frivolous features. Here is where Mozilla failed. | 20:13 |
| _stephen_ | Is there an estimate of how many people make use of popcorn and an estimate of the number of devuan installs? | 20:14 |
| fsmithred | _stephen_, I don't know what percentage use popcon. My guess is it's small. Default setting is "no" | 20:15 |
| _stephen_ | I was just wondering how useful the numbers were. | 20:15 |
| fsmithred | over 2600 installs that are participating in popcon | 20:16 |
| fsmithred | wild guess that it's 10% | 20:16 |
| _stephen_ | hm, my brain wont let me type popcon it keeps coming out popcorn. | 20:17 |
| fsmithred | the numbers might be useful for looking at relative use of different browsers | 20:17 |
| fsmithred | lol | 20:17 |
| _stephen_ | heh, looks like 1277 participate... | 20:19 |
| fsmithred | where'd you see that? | 20:20 |
| _stephen_ | the line for popcorn | 20:23 |
| _stephen_ | damnit | 20:23 |
| _stephen_ | the line for popcon | 20:23 |
| _stephen_ | from the link you provided | 20:23 |
| fsmithred | 1277 votes means the program ran 1277 times. The first column shows number of installs. | 20:27 |
| _stephen_ | err, isn't that the second column, labeled inst? | 20:28 |
| fsmithred | well, if you want to be that way, we're really talking about the third and fourth columns. | 20:28 |
| fsmithred | anyway, there's no way to tell what those numbers mean | 20:29 |
| fsmithred | some might be duplicates (I installed, wiped it and installed again, twice in the same day) | 20:30 |
| _stephen_ | ah | 20:30 |
| fsmithred | or 100 installs all at the same office | 20:30 |
| fsmithred | popcon can tell multiple votes from the same machine - there's a popcon id number | 20:31 |
| _stephen_ | I'd argue that 100 installs all at the same office is valid, if it's 100 different machines, it would still matter. | 20:31 |
| _stephen_ | But I hadn't considered immediate install, run, uninstall, reinstall, run... | 20:31 |
| fsmithred | however, there may be some duplicates out there, due to an oversight in earlier desktop-live isos | 20:32 |
| _stephen_ | packages providing libraries that dont have explicit binaries can never get votes..? | 20:37 |
| _stephen_ | I should say explicitly executable binaries... err programs. | 20:38 |
| fsmithred | not sure. If you have an example, see if it's on the list. | 20:40 |
| _stephen_ | Anything with a zero in the vote column, but a high number of installs, I guess. | 20:40 |
| fsmithred | yeah. good observation. | 20:41 |
| _stephen_ | Would multiple programs under a given package result in a higher number of votes than installs? | 20:41 |
| fsmithred | libreoffice has the different programs listed separately, but it looks like nobody ever used any of them | 20:45 |
| _stephen_ | How is voting accomplished? | 20:45 |
| _stephen_ | oh, found the readme, reading... | 20:46 |
| _stephen_ | I generally set up my mounts with noatime and nodiratime... | 20:50 |
| _stephen_ | Anyone else getting sick of google asking if they meant Debian? | 20:51 |
| fsmithred | I don't seem to get that anymore. | 20:52 |
| fsmithred | using startpage here | 20:52 |
| _stephen_ | I do a search and its full of debian results, so then I put in quotes, and then it asks me if I meant "debian" | 20:52 |
| _stephen_ | devuan popcon -> Did you mean: debian popcorn? | 20:53 |
| _stephen_ | if you click that the first hit is the debian popcon results... | 20:53 |
| fsmithred | you're right. I see it there, but it was invisible before (I've learned to ignore it.) | 20:54 |
| _stephen_ | I guess I just have to put -debian in all my devuan related searches. | 20:55 |
| golinux | Eventually that question could be reversed. (Positive thinking). | 20:55 |
| fsmithred | might take a long time, but I don't rule out the possibility | 20:55 |
| golinux | _stephen_: I do that all the time for -debian and -ubuntu etc. | 20:56 |
| golinux | You can also do +devuan | 20:56 |
| _stephen_ | +devuan still gives me "did you mean...." | 20:57 |
| _stephen_ | huh, i386 usage still seems high... | 20:58 |
| fsmithred | you looking at the graphs? | 20:59 |
| _stephen_ | yeah | 20:59 |
| fsmithred | it's about 1/10 of amd64, which is what I see on refracta iso downloads | 20:59 |
| fsmithred | over a long period of observation | 20:59 |
| _stephen_ | I wonder if that experienced a boost when others announced dropping it | 20:59 |
| fsmithred | thunder started. I might shut down in a hurry soon. | 21:04 |
| fsmithred | back later... | 21:19 |
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