freenode/#devuan/ Monday, 2018-08-06

Joerg-Neo900gnarface: thanks!
Joerg-Neo900sdiff honestly now? dosn't even bother about $EDITOR and simply used ed(1) - WHAT ELSE?01:06
Joerg-Neo900hoestly, who in here really speaks ed?01:07
Joerg-Neo900I did, like 30 years ago01:07
Joerg-Neo900mcdiff FTW ;-P01:09
Xenguy.oO( vimdiff FTW : -)01:16
Joerg-Neo900lol. looks *exactly* like a screen copy of my ed session01:48
Joerg-Neo900I also tried . and !x01:48
Joerg-Neo900and ESC01:48
Joerg-Neo900gnarface: lol, seems the >>2018-08-06T02:33:07+02:00 UbiqPKD kernel: last message repeated 4 times<< (UbiqPKD being the romote device) is generated on remote device and sent verbatim to lacal rsyslogd02:36
ServiceRobotso I haven't checked up on devuan in a while. how is openrc support going? reading the front page it was added in the latest release05:25
gnarfacei haven't tried it myself, but it's supposed to work.  it's an option in the expert mode of the installer05:25
ServiceRobotthough it seems it's version 0.34 that allows me to completely remove sysvinit and depend solely on openrc05:25
gnarfaceyou could always have installed openrc after the fact though, even before the installer had the option.  that's all that's really changed05:26
ServiceRobotbut that's in Beuowolf, which doesn't have any available downloads as of yet. unless I'm mistaken05:26
gnarfacebeowulf is still heavily broken, don't use it unless your primary goal is to help unbreak it05:26
ServiceRobotalways good to have options on the installer itself05:26
ServiceRobotwell I've taken a look on without-systemd's website, and when it comes to STABLE distros that have something other than sysvinit, I don't have many options05:27
gnarfaceyou would actually have better luck with ceres than beowulf right now05:27
ServiceRobotoh? are there downloads available for ceres? it seems that also supports openrc without sysvinit05:27
gnarfacethere's no installer for ceres. you'd have to install ascii then upgrade to it05:28
ServiceRobotthough I'm not sure how the init scripts would fair05:28
ServiceRobotor use debootstrap?05:28
gnarfacedebootstrap would work too05:28
ServiceRobotdo you think ceres is stable enough for production use though?05:29
gnarfacedepends on your definition of production use05:29
gnarfaceyou mean getting real work done that you're being paid for?  no, don't use it for that.05:29
ServiceRobotrunning a LEMP setup along with certain game servers05:29
ServiceRobotmore of a personal thing05:29
gnarfaceyou mean playing games on Steam though, it's fine most weeks.05:29
DocScrutinizer05golinux: so any new decisions regarding the topic?05:29
ServiceRobotno, playing games on steam I'd use something like Artix05:30
ServiceRobotbut for running servers I want something stable that throws systemd out05:30
gnarfaceServiceRobot: don't get me wrong i'd still pick it over any version of Ubuntu to put in production, but ascii is significantly more stable05:30
ServiceRobotya, but I'd like to avoid sysvinit as well. mind you I'd take it over systemd but if there's an option to use openrc instead...05:30
ServiceRobotfrom what I can tell in ascii it just builds upon sysvinit05:31
gnarfacelike i said, should be there in expert mode of the installer (note, NOT the live image)05:31
gnarfacei know what you're talking about05:31
gnarfaceyea i think the openrc install in ascii preserves a bunch of sysvinit scripts for compatibility05:31
ServiceRobotin version 0.34 openrc has openrc-init that allows me to replace /sbin/init?05:31
gnarfacei guess i don't know that much about it, sorry05:32
ServiceRobotblagh, I'd like to dump sysvinit05:32
gnarfaceyou need to talk to someone in here who's actually using openrc05:32
gnarfaceopenrc is cute, but i actually like sysvin it05:32
gnarfacewhat i don't like, are poorly written init scripts05:32
gnarfacebut they're super easy tof ix05:32
gnarface*to fix05:32
ServiceRobotfrom the usage and what others have said, isn't it "on the way out"?05:32
gnarfacei keep hearing that said, but then i ask around in a panic and find out that if it's official talk, it's being officially hidden05:33
gnarfacei suspect at this point that's just wishful thinking05:33
ServiceRobotmy pipe dream is runit support. if devuan had a system like artix I'd help in a heartbeat05:33
ServiceRobotbut openrc is a close second05:33
furrywolfwe are borgd.  you will be assimilated.05:34
gnarfaceServiceRobot: you know that runit is in the repo too, right?05:34
golinuxDocScrutinizer05: Don't quite get what you're asking05:34
ServiceRobotyes, but it doesn't have the same support as Artix or Void, no?05:35
gnarfacei can't answer that, sorry05:35
DocScrutinizer05golinux: there was a debate about a pending topic update05:35
ServiceRobotI tried using runit once by slapping void's configuration onto devuan manually, and I did get it to work to a degree05:35
ServiceRobotbut ran into other problems I can't remember05:36
DocScrutinizer052 days ago05:36
golinuxHaven't given it a thought actually.   Been de-spamming gdo prior to the migration to the new server.05:36
DocScrutinizer05[04.08.18 08:41:08] <DocScrutinizer05> golinux: btw chanops can edit /topic  [04.08.18 08:44:37] <golinux> I need to get off my a$$.  Been sitting too long. biab05:37
golinuxI'm still sitting and my but is getting sore.05:38
golinuxbutt really05:38
ServiceRobotwell I don't plan to run a full on desktop on ceres. I like to avoid overhead for servers. I'm assuming it should run fine for my needs?05:38
gnarfaceyes, the big difference between ceres and ascii will be just the difference between ubuntu and debian;  you lose the guarantee that they tried not to put broken shit in the repo05:39
golinuxServiceRobot: Part of the problem is that there are newer packages in ascii than in ceres05:39
gnarfaceyea, it's worth noting some of the devuan patches have skipped testing due to beowulf not being testworthy yet05:39
gnarfaceso you'll lose those too, i forgot about that (thanks golinux)05:40
ServiceRobotoh, ceres is even older huh. ya, that might pose a problem05:40
gnarfacejust a couple packages05:40
golinuxThat's changing.  Work will be introduced in ceres in the future05:40
gnarfacegolinux: what were the packages?  just dbus and polkit stuff right?  he wouldn't need those if he's not using a desktop, right?05:40
ServiceRobotmaybe I should keep waiting then. *sigh* seems it'll be a few more years before choices become viable for me05:40
golinuxI have no idea.05:40
gnarfaceServiceRobot: it is my professional advice that you go with ascii and just be happy with it for 2-3 years05:41
golinuxServiceRobot: You could try ASCII > Beowulf + backports05:41
ServiceRobotthat sounds like it would introduce instability real quick05:41
golinuxBut open RC does work on ASCII.  There is discussion on the forum05:42
ServiceRobotmind you I'm very tempted since getting game servers working requires libraries that other distros I've tried don't have05:42
golinuxDepends what you need05:42
ServiceRobotit works on top of sysvinit? I guess I just need to take what I can get05:42
ServiceRobotone other thing I'm curious about though. I read somewhere that libsystemd0 had to be readded?05:43
gnarfacelike i said, i don't think the openrc in ascii works on top of sysvinit.  i think it just contains a bunch of the same init scripts to preserve their interface functionality.05:43
gnarfacelibsystemd0 couldn't be completely removed, but it's currently believed to be safely vestigial05:44
golinuxYou can search for more05:44
ServiceRobotright, but then at that point what is the difference between devuan and debian? wasn't the point to purge systemd?05:44
gnarfacesystemd is a running userspace daemon05:44
gnarfacelibsystemd0 *IS NOT*05:44
golinuxWe are working on a way to remove it without having to repackage everything (which we don't have the (wo)man power to do.05:45
gnarfacesystemd was purged, that was accomplished05:45
ServiceRobotso it's just a compatibility package for packages that use the library then?05:45
ServiceRobotare there future plans to eventually remove it as well?05:45
gnarfaceman power willing05:46
golinuxServiceRobot: ^^^ link above explains it05:46
gnarfacewe're talking about literally thousands of packages here05:46
ServiceRobotalright, gimme a minute to read it. I want to make sure I'm informed so I don't spout crap in other places05:46
golinuxgnarface: (wo)man power, please.  :)05:46
gnarfaceright right, sorry05:47
gnarfaceforce of habit05:47
gnarfaceit's just muscle memory in my fingers at this point05:47
ServiceRobotI see a lot of nasty stuff said about this distro on reddit and forums. I want to decide for myself05:47
gnarface90% of it is paid astroturfing05:47
gnarfacethe other 10% is just people with weak will05:47
golinuxWhen people are threatened they strike out05:47
ServiceRobotwhat makes you say that?05:48
golinuxThat is a very common response05:48
golinuxEspecially if it's ideas05:48
gnarfacebasic psychology05:48
golinuxpeople cling to them and jump to defend them.05:49
golinuxbasic stupidity05:49
gnarfaceyou only have to take ONE psych class to learn that stuff, it's a bit scary how rare that is to actually do05:49
golinuxI've gotta get back to work de-spamming our gitlab05:49
ServiceRobotoh, you guys are moving to gitlab?05:50
golinuxWe run on our gitlab installation05:50
gnarfaceit's a private instance, ServiceRobot
golinuxWe run most everything on our own infra.  These days you can't entrust it elsewhere05:51
ServiceRobotone other thing I was considering was installing debian and simply purging systemd myself... but the support for other inits like openrc turned me off from that idea05:51
ServiceRobotor lack there of05:52
ServiceRobotah I see. so the whole debacle with libsystemd0 is overblown then05:54
ServiceRobotalso, currently I'm giving Hyperbola a spin and I quite like what it's aiming for, but for some software I've tried it doesn't work properly05:55
ServiceRobotso Devuan is really my only alternative unless I go with Debian05:55
ServiceRobotor I wait for the devs on the issue tracker to fix the things I've reported. might as well help them even if I switch05:56
ServiceRobotwelp, I think I might give devuan another try now that ascii is released. I probably shouldn't mess with ceres for a couple more months06:03
gnarfacei think that's the safest choice06:04
ServiceRobotya, mind you I really am liking Hyperbola since I honestly like pacman more than apt, buuut this distro has way more support so I think I have to cave06:05
ServiceRobotalso what are your opinions on btrfs with snapper? I tried it out and quite like it06:06
gnarfacehaven't tried btrfs yet, haven't heard of snapper06:07
ServiceRobotsnapper uses btrfs to take snapshots06:07
gnarfaceof all the people i've asked who are using btrfs themselves, most of them say it's not ready for production yet06:07
ServiceRobotreally? from reading online a lot of those responses seem outdated06:08
ServiceRobotit seems like it's been stabilized06:08
gnarfaceit could be better now, it could have changed in the last 6 months06:08
gnarfaceit was getting close06:08
ServiceRobotseems to be okay for the most part06:08
ServiceRobotI use it on my USB for booting multiple different distros06:09
ServiceRobotfor installation06:10
ServiceRobotit works quite well06:10
gnarfaceeh, i'd still be hesitant to use it in production06:10
ServiceRobotwell I don't know about production, but for personal server use I'm liking it06:10
gnarfacebut then i'd even be hesitant to use ext4 in production after the problems that have cropped up with it over the last couple years06:10
ServiceRobotproblems with ext4? but ext4 is the standard?06:11
gnarfaceyea, i hate it when that happens06:11
ServiceRobotwhen something becomes defacto?06:11
gnarfacewhen it does but doesn't deserve to06:11
ServiceRobotlol. like GNOME?06:12
gnarfacehah yea06:12
ServiceRobotI tried using GNOME once when I first moved to linux06:12
ServiceRobotwhenever I tried to figure out how to modify it, I always got "just use extensions"06:12
ServiceRobotthat was a red flag06:12
gnarfacewell, software in linux tends to be made by the people who want it06:13
ServiceRobotthing is it's it not defacto, people will use the "it's not official so how can you trust it" argument06:13
ServiceRobotit's a catch 2206:13
gnarfaceso GNOME was made by people who thought Enlightenment was too complicated, and the way to fix that was by making it more complicated06:13
gnarfacethe result is... utterly expected06:13
ServiceRobotI just want a modular desktop where I can remove and add whatever I want. change the file manager, panel, etc to whatever I want06:14
ServiceRobotonly de I've found that does this is XFCE06:14
gnarfaceyea i think it's starting to get there06:14
ServiceRobotmind you XFCE has some problems I wish were resolved but I've been able to work around them06:15
ServiceRobotI would diffidently use KDE if the theme support was better and it was MUCH more modular06:15
ServiceRobotsame with Cinnamon06:15
Joerg-Neo900(btrfs) SLES using it as default now, afaik06:16
Joerg-Neo900for sure OpenSuse suggested it per default since quite a while now, like over a year06:17
ServiceRobothuh. wasn't aware of that. never used OpenSuse before though06:18
Joerg-Neo900I'm using a btrfs-RAID1 on my 1.8TB /home06:21
Joerg-Neo900wouldn't do that again. Too large06:21
Joerg-Neo900you want smaller btrfs volumes, like maybe 50GB max06:21
ServiceRobotI thought it would be better since they're dynamically sized. better than partitioning /home from what I can tell06:22
Joerg-Neo900don't get me wrong, it works fine, just some tools tale forever on a volume of that size06:22
ServiceRobotdepends on the use case06:22
Joerg-Neo900also taje damn care you're not backing up the .snapshot dirs!06:24
Joerg-Neo900a careless `cp -a /home /mnt/backup/home" could easily cost you a lot of your hair06:25
Joerg-Neo900and unlike (sym)links not even tar knows to deal with btrfs dup files in snapshots06:26
ServiceRobotI use snapper so that shouldn't happen06:26
Joerg-Neo900so df and du are also a tad tricky06:27
Joerg-Neo900sorry? snapper is related how here?06:27
ServiceRobotoh, are we still talking about btrfs?06:27
Joerg-Neo900maybe snapper can do file snapshots for backup purposes, don't know06:28
ServiceRobotIt can create and compare snapshots, revert between snapshots, and supports automatic snapshots timelines. very easy to use cronjobs with it06:28
Joerg-Neo900I know06:29
Joerg-Neo900but how's that related to backups?06:29
ServiceRobotremote backups?06:29
ServiceRobotsnapshots in the way that I have them set up can be used as backups06:30
Joerg-Neo900are there other backups too?06:30
Joerg-Neo900lol, good luck with swapping your broken HDD for a new one and restoring data on it, then06:30
Joerg-Neo900a snapshot is no backup06:31
ServiceRobotwell that's 1 situation you can't avoid unless you remotely back up it to another service06:31
ServiceRobotthough I use Nextcloud for that. snapshots are for if I fuck up the system myself by accidentally deleting something06:32
ServiceRobotnot for harddrive failures06:32
Joerg-Neo900that's what I use btrfs for too06:32
ServiceRobotfor harddrive failures I might as well reinstall the system06:33
Joerg-Neo900where does a system install restore my data?06:33
ServiceRobotI use a different service for restoring documents and other information I like to keep06:33
ServiceRobotjust install Nextcloud again and boom, got my files back06:34
Joerg-Neo900yeah, I gonna get me a nextcloud installation on one of my servers eventually. Not because I need that stuff for backup, there's rsync and whatnot for that purpose. But it's convenient for sharing06:35
ServiceRobotI just use 2 nextcloud providers that I found. very handy and much safer than dropbox06:36
Joerg-Neo900ugh, providers. Well...06:36
ServiceRobothey, at least nextcloud has clientside encryption06:36
ServiceRobotso if they become compromised they can't read my data anyway06:36
ServiceRobotalso, if you wanna backup your snapshots off-drive, this is another option. never used it though:
Joerg-Neo900that's what I wondered if snapper already has it06:38
ServiceRobotsnapper doesn't unfortunately06:40
Joerg-Neo900yeah, but a lot of what btrbk does is already in snapper06:42
ServiceRobotexcept for remote management06:43
Joerg-Neo900at least on suse. maybe it's a yast wrapper around snapper06:43
ServiceRobotnah, it seems to be its own thing. maybe better than snapper. idk06:43
Joerg-Neo900suse42.x came with hourly snapshots OOTB. They nuked that with leap1506:45
Joerg-Neo900and when you opened the Yast snapper module, it took a 3h until it read in the complete dir of my 1T8 /home and got responsive again ;-P06:46
Joerg-Neo900ridiculous when all you want is to restore a 500 byte /home/.snapshots/1362638//me/.kde/share/konversationrc file06:50
Joerg-Neo900I used mc then, got it done in 90s06:50
ServiceRobotwell maybe for a single file. but it seems better for whole sets of files/folders06:51
Joerg-Neo900sure, it's fine as long as it doesn't think it has to find all diffs between your active filesystem and an arbitrary snapshot you highlight in snapper06:52
ServiceRobotwell that's because it doesn't store a complete copy. keeps file sizes down06:53
Joerg-Neo900alas this was exactly what snapper did as soon as you clicked on a snapshot06:53
Joerg-Neo900no, that's because devels are idiots06:53
ServiceRobotI don't know if I'd say that06:53
ServiceRobotalso click? are you using a ui?06:54
golinuxPeople do use UIs06:54
Joerg-Neo900I told you I used Yast snapper module06:54
ServiceRobotI see. never used it. I mainly stick to the cli for server use06:55
Joerg-Neo900and it populates a fully expanded filesystem dirtree, with diffs highlighted, as soon as you select a snapshot06:55
ServiceRobotis that a fault of snapper of the module?06:55
Joerg-Neo900which inevitably takes ages on a 1T8 of data in volume06:55
Joerg-Neo900it obviously is the fault of the part that creates that treeview06:56
ServiceRobotshould report it to the devs then06:57
Joerg-Neo900already did, and they almost agreed to be idiots ;-P06:57
ServiceRobotagreed to be idiots?06:57
Joerg-Neo900they admitted that's very poor design and needs to get fixed06:57
ServiceRobotwell that's progress at least. lol06:58
ServiceRobotyou could also try this:
Joerg-Neo900since... why the heck would I *always* be interested in a fully expanded dirtree with all diff'ing giles tagged, when I select a snapshot to do arbitrary operations on it?06:59
Joerg-Neo900files even06:59
Joerg-Neo900particularly when I already know the single file I'm interested in is  /home/.snapshots/1362638//me/.kde/share/konversationrc07:01
ServiceRobotdoes anyone know how to install openrc by default using the debootstrap method?08:08
gnarfacedid you just try --include=openrc and --exclude=sysvinit?08:10
ServiceRobotoh, well I'm a dumbass if I didn't see that on the wiki08:10
gnarfacetry the man page08:10
ServiceRobotthat would probably have been a better place to look08:11
gnarfacei don't even know what's on the wiki08:11
gnarfacealso, i don't know if that will actually work.  i know --include and --exclude are options, but i don't know if you can use them on conflicting packages in that fashion.08:11
gnarfacei do know however, that if you chroot in and install openrc after finishing the debootstrap, it should remove sysvinit for you in the process08:12
gnarfaceor at least.. disable it08:12
gnarfacethen you could remove it08:12
gnarfacebut i think it won't actually let you install them concurrently08:12
gnarfaceas in, it's probably hard to screw this up08:13
ServiceRobotoh really?08:13
ServiceRobotI thought openrc used sysvinit?08:13
ServiceRobotmaybe just certain subpackages08:13
gnarfaceyou should be more worried about how you're gonna make grub find your MBR08:13
gnarfaceand don't forget that debootstrap won't install a kernel by default08:13
ServiceRobotah, don't worry. I don't use grub. I use refind08:14
gnarfaceyou'll need one of those to boot, too08:14
gnarfaceoh, well more power to you08:14
ServiceRobotthe interface is nicer in my opinion. easier to configure too08:14
gnarfacegrub's not my favorite either08:17
gnarfaceit usually doesn't get in my way anymore so i usually still use it08:17
ServiceRobotthing is refind, as in the name, only supports uefi, which I use by default anyway08:17
ServiceRobotone big reason I choose arch/debian is multiarch support, mainly because of steam.... god they really need to update it already08:20
ServiceRobotif they could just open source the API for downloading games, friends list, chat..... then people could make their own clients08:21
gnarfacei gotta be honest with you, i don't think they'd know how to even start08:24
gnarfacetheir linux client doesn't exactly represent top-shelf expertise08:24
ServiceRoboteh, it's certainly better than nothing. if it weren't for it I wouldn't be on linux as much as I am... and by that I mean 100%08:24
gnarfacei'm not questioning that it's the best we've got08:25
gnarfacei've been fairly excited by the progress myself over the past couple years08:25
ServiceRobotif someone could reverse engineer how it all worked, someone could make a third party client I bet08:25
ServiceRobotI mean I'm already seeing extensions and such for discord even if it's not supported at all08:26
ServiceRobotand yes, I rather be using Matrix but defacto and all that08:26
gnarfacei don't trust discord one bit08:26
ServiceRobotsame here. their privacy policy makes me want to vomit08:26
ServiceRobotalso I think it's sysvinit-core, not sysvinit08:31
gnarfaceyou might be right08:32
gnarfacei have sysvinit, sysvinit-core and sysvinit-utils, but sysvinit is marked as transitional08:32
ServiceRobotya, I saw that too. do I exclude all sysvinit related packages, or just core?08:33
ServiceRobotor will excluding core exclude utils as well?08:33
gnarfacedamn good question08:33
gnarfaceDepends: insserv, libaudit1 (>= 1:2.2.1), libc6 (>= 2.16), libeinfo1, libpam0g (>=, librc1, libselinux1 (>= 2.6)08:33
gnarfaceConflicts: file-rc, sysv-rc08:33
gnarfaceReplaces: sysv-rc08:33
gnarfacemaybe it's none of them08:34
gnarfacemaybe it's actually sysv-rc08:34
ServiceRobotI just need to know what to exclude. I'm pretty sure I can't completely remove sysvinit until ceres I think08:34
gnarfaceman i've been upgrading this ceres system since it was debian sarge08:34
gnarfacegod only knows how much cruft i have here08:34
ServiceRobotI always try to be clean08:34
gnarfacei think that the first thing i would try would be to include openrc and see if it is smart enough to block the relevant conflicting packages on it's own08:35
ServiceRobotdoes openrc actually conflict with sysvinit though?08:36
gnarfaceit wouldn't have to if it conflicts with one of the dependencies instead08:36
gnarfaceah, yes, sysv-rc depends on sysvinit-utils here08:37
ServiceRobothmm, while I'll just exclude sysvinit-core. I used devuan a couple months back and remember that was what it used08:37
ServiceRobotsysvinit-core depends on sysv-rc and utils it seems08:37
ServiceRobotso just exclude core08:37
gnarfaceyea, what i'd do is try include openrc and see if that blocks the relevant stuff, and if it didn't, i'd block sysv-rc, or sysvinit-core, or maybe all of the packages with the substring "sysv" in their name, depending on what type of error i got08:38
gnarfaceyour logic might be sound, but in that case i think that it would be sysv-rc you'd want to block instead of sysvinit-core, since sysv-rc is the common ancestor08:39
gnarfacei guess i don't know for sure though, i'd just have to try it08:39
ServiceRobotoh, sysv-rc is the root of it all? the debian website makes it hard to see the pattern08:39
gnarfaceit shouldn't be hard to recognize it blowing up08:39
gnarfacebut if you run "apt-cache show [package name]" you can see the Depends and Replaces headers and such08:40
ServiceRobotwell I'm using debootstrap from arch (arch has it for some reason). I copied the script file from the git and it seems to be working08:41
gnarfacegood for them08:41
gnarfacelast i'd heard the debian one didn't work with devuan repos08:41
ServiceRobotwell it's just debootstrap. I can point it to a url08:42
golinuxI have a process xmrigminer that's using 100% cpu and I can't kill itcpu16:51
golinuxSorry that was garbled.   Not finding much with a search.16:51
djphknowing zero about it, I'd call it a cryptocurrency miner16:54
golinuxdjph: The only instance found was in .ttp/a/x86/xmrigMiner but in another user directory!17:09
golinuxSo why was that running on my default user?17:10
djphdunno.  kill it with prejudice.17:29
fsmithredsearch for xmrig miner and you'll get hits. It is a currency miner. I don't know how to figure out where you got it.17:56
mbufWhich image do I need to use for Asus C201PA-DSO2-PW? Can I flash it to the internal storage?19:37

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