libera/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2018-08-08

m3lst4dis there a great need for packagers?  Is it basically like backporting, but just removing systemd?  I've done quite a bit of backporting in the past, but I see you have your own method which doesn't seem to difficult to learn.  Thanks!00:27
golinuxm3lst4d: Sorry I've been out all day.00:40
golinuxPackagers are always welcome. Please look at the d1h walkthrough here: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=54900:42
ServiceRobotso update report on openrc. I gave the installer a try in a vm and it worked perfectly. but for all intents and purposes I want to stick with debootstrap when I set it up on my server machine01:00
ServiceRobotwhen I tried getting openrc working by simply installing it along with minbase I didn't get the same result unfortunately01:01
golinuxServiceRobot: Thanks for the report.01:01
golinuxHappy to hear you're making progress.01:02
ServiceRobotwhen I do rc-status, it shows all services as [started]. but when I debootstrap install openrc, all services show as [stopped]01:02
ServiceRobot1 detail I noticed in the different output: when I use the installer, Runlevel: default. when I use debootstrap, Runlevel: sysinit01:03
ServiceRobotso there's something the installer does that I'm missing. I'm not sure what it is and I can't find documentation anywhere01:04
ServiceRobotonly thing I've found is this: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-packages/choose-init/blob/master/debian/choose-init.postinst01:04
ServiceRobotit seems all it does is install openrc? because that just leads to further questions01:04
golinuxYou might ask on #devuan-dev but most everyone is on holiday atm01:08
golinuxAnd by now sleeping in EU.01:08
ServiceRobotwell it is summer. most devs live in EU?01:08
golinuxQuite a few.01:08
golinuxThe ones that most likely could answer that question about the installer01:09
ServiceRobotactually, I think I may see what I'm missing01:09
golinuxCool01:09
ServiceRobotbut I'm not 100% sure it's the solution. I'll give it a try and if nothing works I'll check out the dev channel01:10
golinuxLet us know the result01:10
ServiceRobotso it seems that it's working now. rc-status is using the default runlevel and all services are started01:39
ServiceRobotwhat I had to do was purge sysv-rc even though it was reported as uninstalled. very strange01:40
ServiceRobotI guess debootstrap screws something up on installation or something01:40
cehtehhum i need some ssh heartbeat, when connection dies, then it reverts everything in /etc (etckeeper) and reboots .. does such a tool exist?02:03
koollmanit seems a bit extreme. easy enough to make, I guess. starting a script that checks if your sshd process is still running, and when it stops, revert and reboot02:10
cehtehi wonder if such doesnt already exist02:12
cehtehuse case: tinkering with network configuration on a remote machine02:12
cehtehonly enable that while one is testing things02:13
koollmanyeah, I get the idea :)02:13
koollmanI've done similar things in the past, but limited. usually mostly for firewall rules, and then iptables-apply was created and I was set02:13
koollmanI guess for ssh or interfaces changes, it could still be useful02:14
cehtehfirehol has the 'firehol try' command .. when the firewall is loaded you have to enter 'commit' within 30 secs02:15
cehtehbut i am about more generic things, changing bridges etc02:15
koollmanyou could reuse the idea of iptables-apply ... make a script that do the changes (like restart networking, or restart sshd), then ask for input/confirmation that all is fine02:15
cehtehor testing vm's which may clash with network configs and so on02:16
koollmanhow would you revert a vm test ?02:16
cehtehlibvirt configs are stored in /etc too02:16
cehtehi mean its enough when it reverts the VM's start/autostart02:17
koollmanrebooting in a state were the vm is not started ? what if it was started but you did a change in it ... then you would still probably be in trouble02:17
cehtehsure02:17
cehtehthere are plenty ways to fuck up :)02:17
koollmanbut, yeah, it can be useful anyway02:17
cehtehwell you could start the same thing within the vm02:17
cehtehanyway while we talking i am fixed the network here and have the first vm running02:18
cehtehso this heartbeat idea died for now :D02:18
koollmanstill a good idea, might be useful to work on it :)02:18
cehtehwhen i need it again i may hack something together02:18
cehtehbtw is the packager of libvirt present here, or where do i file issues/wishlist things?02:20
koollmanbase idea: while kill -0 pidtowatch ; sleep 1 ; done ; cd /etc ; git stash ; shutdown -r +5 "Server restarting because pidtowatch is gone"02:22
Joerg-Neo900so what about the channel /topic? would any of you channel users want it changed to be more up2date?02:22
koollman(and you can shutdown -c, then git stash apply, to keep your changes)02:23
cehtehyeah something like that02:23
Joerg-Neo900cehteh: echo -e '#!/bin/sh \n sleep 300 \n wall -n "mywatchdog is going to reboot system in 90s. To abort this, do sudo killall mywatchdog" \n shutdown -r now' >/usr/local/sbin/mywatchdog; chown root /usr/local/sbin/mywatchdog; chmod +x /usr/local/sbin/mywatchdog02:34
Joerg-Neo900then on local system run a `while sleep 240; do ssh root@myserver "killall mywatchdog; /usr/local/bin/mywatchdog; done`02:36
cehtehJoerg-Neo900: yes sure, pretty simple02:37
cehtehhi btw, ltns02:38
Joerg-Neo900hi! long time no see02:38
Joerg-Neo900cehteh: actually sorry, this suggestion of mine has a bug; you need to detach mywatchdog process from terminal, aka "daemonize". So it doesn't get killed when your ssh connection closes02:43
cehtehi dont need it anymore, box is working02:44
Joerg-Neo900a lot of systems have a similar thing OOTB. E.G my router (vyos/EdgeMAX) has:02:48
Joerg-Neo900  commit-confirm02:48
Joerg-Neo900                Commit the current set of changes with 'confirm' required02:48
Joerg-Neo900  confirm       Confirm prior commit-confirm02:48
Joerg-Neo900when you don't give `confirm` a 10 min after commit-confirm, the system reboots02:49
cehtehbefore etckeeper existed i hacked my own etc-in-git thing02:49
cehtehsomone suggestd me the briliant idea (on a shared administrated host) that instead having a daily autocommit do a daily autorevert :)02:50
Joerg-Neo900and yeah, usually you want the watchdog to also boot to a known-good config02:51
cehtehwell some automatism for etckeeper to commit changes on a successful boot and revert changes from a failed boot would be nice, i am pretty sure someone done that somewhere (iirc you can hook things into that)02:52
cehtehand you want to push people to commit their changes with meaningful comments02:52
Joerg-Neo900hehe, would you be surprised to hear maemo had this stuff since ... maemo5 for sure, maybe maemo4 or earlier?02:53
Joerg-Neo900I'm not entirely sure what exactly it protected02:54
Joerg-Neo900(02:54
Joerg-Neo900(still protects)02:54
Joerg-Neo900anyway /rescue/*02:57
Joerg-Neo900https://pastebin.com/z1zVarEt02:59
Joerg-Neo900prolly it monitors all HAM (apt) package manager activities03:03
Joerg-Neo900in /etc/init.d/rcS: https://pastebin.com/bBEDi0bK    --  and the ham-rescue.sh: https://pastebin.com/92iWT5q003:11
Joerg-Neo900/me flares at " export BOOTSTATE="USER"   \n  touch /tmp/$BOOTSTATE   \n  echo $BOOTSTATE > /tmp/STATE" and scratches head. ---    IroN900:~# ls -l /tmp/U* /tmp/STATE03:19
Joerg-Neo900-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 5 2018-07-11 03:22 /tmp/STATE03:19
Joerg-Neo900-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 0 2018-07-11 03:22 /tmp/USER03:19
Joerg-Neo900either legacy cruft or a nasty mistake03:20
Joerg-Neo900cehteh: is etckeeper some established thing?03:21
cehtehyes03:21
Joerg-Neo900nm https://help.ubuntu.com/lts/serverguide/etckeeper.html.en03:21
ServiceRobotso I've cracked the mystery of openrc I think. if you attempt to install it during installation as a replacement for sysv-rc, it doesn't work. you need to install sysv-rc first, and then replace it with openrc04:23
ServiceRobotI'm not exactly sure why it works that way, but at least I figured out how to make it work04:23
ServiceRobotin fact, the graphical installer makes you do it this way. choose-init doesn't work until you've installed the base system04:25
ServiceRobotvery strange indeed04:25
gnarfaceServiceRobot: it's something to do with the post/pre install scripts04:28
gnarfacenone of it is magic, they all have to be painstakingly made to play nice with each other by hand04:28
gnarfaceoften, that includes building in assumptions about what order certain things are installed in04:28
ServiceRobotya, it's just weird how I need to install sysv-rc first, then replace it instead of just have openrc04:29
gnarfacethey try to cover all the bases, but ad-hoc installation isn't really in the budget for debugging most the time04:29
ServiceRobotad-hoc?04:29
ServiceRobotright, but at the very least I've solved the mystery. I think04:30
gnarfacethat's the important part04:30
ServiceRobotone reason I want to use openrc is netifrc (although I would prefer runit but I don't think it's supported currently)04:39
ServiceRobotthere's a compatibility script called runit-sysv but that's not the same role openrc fills in sysv-rc's absence04:40
ServiceRobotbut options are always good04:40
mbufWhich bootloader does the devsus.sh use? https://github.com/dimkr/devsus/blob/master/devsus.sh07:40
ServiceRobotso I'm trying to understand how Devuan sets itself apart from Debian other than the removal of systemd and sysvinit by default08:27
ServiceRobotare packages from debian modified in anyway?08:28
ServiceRobot*any way08:28
dethaWhere necessary to remove systemd dependencies, they are modified.08:31
ServiceRobotan example?08:31
dethadesktops (login needs some systemd stuff)08:33
ServiceRobotlike GNOME?08:33
ServiceRobotwhich I don't use btw08:33
dethaneither do I (xfce), but that is one example08:34
ServiceRobotI imagine it must be hell stripping systemd from GNOME08:34
MinceRthe worst part is that you still end up with gnome08:35
ServiceRobotwhen I first moved to linux and eventually settled on xfce, I was afraid by the lack of features compared to the windows desktop... then I soon realized I didn't need much more than what it provided08:36
ServiceRobotkind of a big wake up to me that more doesn't really mean MORE08:37
ServiceRobotif you catch my drift08:37
MinceRi found more features than in the windows desktop, and probably used more too08:37
MinceRlike virtual desktops and non-crippled panels08:37
ServiceRobotwell more on the terminal, sure08:37
ServiceRobotnon-crippled panels?08:37
ServiceRobotxfce panel still has a few kinks I wish would get worked out. same with thunar08:38
ServiceRobototherwise it's a golden desktop08:38
MinceRwell, xfce panel has gone to shit since then08:38
ServiceRobotwhat happened to xfce panel? it works fine for me with only a few issues08:38
MinceRnow on most systems it's enough to try to remove one of the panels to make it crash and restart with all panels still there08:38
MinceRthey jury-rigged some sort of settings daemon under it, among other things08:39
ServiceRobotfor xfce panel? how is that a problem?08:39
MinceRmakes it heavier and more difficult to configure08:39
MinceRespecially if you have to edit the config file to work around a bug08:40
MinceRlike the one i mentioned08:40
ServiceRobotwhich bug?08:40
MinceRthat trying to remove the second panel often makes it crash08:40
MinceRinstead of removing the second panel08:40
ServiceRobotoh? I've installed and removed the panel plenty of times with no crashes08:41
ServiceRobotyou mean the default bottom panel that emulates a macos feel?08:41
ServiceRobotthe dock?08:41
MinceRyeah08:41
ServiceRobotI can delete it without crashes. I've never had a crash from removing it08:41
MinceRi'm not sure which version has this issue, but i've struggled with it on 2 machines, including one at work08:41
ServiceRobotwhich distributions?08:41
MinceRfuntoo08:41
ServiceRobotand what versions?08:41
MinceRdunno, haven't checked08:42
ServiceRobotnever used it. might be how the distro handles it. I use Artix and never had crash issues08:42
ServiceRobothttps://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/7/74/Heavy_yes02.wav08:51
ServiceRobotwoops08:52
ServiceRobotwrong channel08:52
MinceRat any rate, if it depends on a settings daemon, it isn't lightweight08:52
ServiceRobotI suppose. maybe complain on their issue tracker to make it more modular?08:53
ServiceRobotit's still more modular than most desktop environments08:53
ServiceRobotcan't have everything08:53
MinceRi'm looking for other panels instead09:06
MinceRi switched to fvwm anyway09:06
gnarfaceServiceRobot: there's a list of packages that could not be sanitized of systemd, and have been removed entirely because of that.  besides this list, and the re-packaging of tons of other packages, every effort has been made to preserve expected behavior. (the behavior WE expected from years of prior work with Debian, not the behavior all those systemd monkeys expected their 6-month unix crash course certified by09:24
gnarfaceMicrosoft, Inc.) https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt09:24
bozonius+109:25
gnarfaceyou'll find that in most cases it's so much like debian that the word debian is still floating about in places it doesn't belong09:25
gnarfacethe vast majority of packages haven't actually even been changed, and in fact are dynamically pulled from the debian repos directly09:25
ServiceRobotwhich begs the question why we needed to fork debian if it's mostly the same09:26
ServiceRobotwas adding an extra repo not enough?09:26
gnarfacebecause you can't actually get systemd out of debian09:26
bozoniusxfce is gnome right?09:27
gnarfaceif you actually try (on a machine that's not headless and using ext4) you'll find all sorts of regressions and blockages09:27
ServiceRobotI see "replace systemd with debian" from google results but I guess it's bullshit09:27
ServiceRobot*with sysvinit09:27
ServiceRobotI've been seeing a lot of astroturfing instead of legitimate talk and it makes it hard to form any sort of opinion09:27
bozoniusxfce is built on gnome, I mean?09:28
ServiceRobotno09:28
ServiceRobotMATE is a fork of GNOME 209:28
ServiceRobotthat must be what you're thinking09:28
bozoniusso xfce is distinct from gnome then?09:28
gnarfaceServiceRobot: their aggression style is a systematic set of regressive patches in the form of "nobody was using this anymore right? -> purge" and "oopses, we didn't test sysvinit with your filesystem!"  that fly under the radar of public discussion.  to see what they're doing wrong you actually have to seriously try not to use systemd.  it helps if you were already familiar with how things worked before it came on the09:29
gnarfacescene.09:29
gnarfacebozonius: yea, xfce is not related to gnome09:29
bozoniusok09:29
bozoniusI heard ServiceRobot say he had problems with xfce  and you were talking gnome, so I thought maybe...09:30
bozoniusI mean you were talking *systemd09:30
bozonius(sorry)09:30
bozonius(it's late here)09:30
* bozonius is not helping here... at all09:30
gnarfaceServiceRobot: when you've been upgrading debian systems without problems for more than a decade and the FIRST upgrade fails because of systemd, then you find out WHY and it's because they replaced a symlink with a broken script that nobody tested IN A PACKAGE THAT DOESN'T EVEN DEPEND ON IT... then you realize they're breaking shit on purpose.09:30
gnarfaceor when you try to uninstall systemd and find out no window managers are installable anymore09:31
gnarfacethat sort of shit09:31
gnarfaceor how they scuttled lm-sensors09:31
gnarfaceand then went right after the login process09:32
* bozonius stomach is turning09:32
bozoniussavages09:32
ServiceRobotnah, I said I wasn't having problems with xfce09:32
ServiceRobotthat was someone else09:32
gnarfacethey're systematically replacing stuff that's been working for literally decades, because they think it's old and crufty.   but then they can't walk the walk they talk, and everything they replace is broken09:32
bozoniusoh, sorry ServiceRobot   my bad09:32
* ErRandir re-installed sysvinit before devuan existed. That worked for a while but over time systemd invaded and broke more and more stuff09:33
gnarfaceand every time, their justification is itself based on a sophomoric level of understanding of the way it was meant to be used09:33
ServiceRobotpeople seem to be using that same argument for wayland09:33
gnarfaceyea, the same argument can be made for wayland, and i've in fact made that argument myself, but wayland currently isn't an active threat because it doesn't build and it doesn't work with Steam09:34
gnarfaceit doesn't work with NVidia binary drivers, and probably never will09:34
ServiceRobotthe claim that systemd makes is that traditional initscripts are "hard to maintain" and "prone to errors"09:34
ServiceRobotisn't that with anything you do?09:34
gnarfacethe traditional init scripts are only hard to maintain if you're a shitty programmer09:34
gnarfaceq.e.d.09:34
gnarfaceis that a qed?09:34
gnarfacei dunno, it felt clever though :)09:35
ServiceRobotmind you I only started using linux in 2016 so I can't speak from experience09:35
gnarfaceoh09:35
gnarface1997 here, and i'm still feeling dumb for not finding out about it sooner09:35
bozoniusI started using Linux in the mid-1990s and got serious about it in the early 2000's09:35
bozoniusI didn't know about systemd until about 2014 or so when I upgraded mageia 4 to 5 and discovered the missing log files...09:36
ServiceRobotholy crap. I was born in 1997...09:36
gnarfaceyou sound a lot older than that.  good for you.09:36
gnarfaceyou've obviously been packed full of a lot of crap, but you're asking the right questions.  that's good.09:37
bozoniusthe missing log files made me angry09:37
ServiceRobotreally? I don't know what I'm doing most of the time. I just follow directions and try to get ideas from other people09:37
gnarfacemore people need to be asking the right questions in this world.09:37
bozoniusmaybe it is time to kind of "start all over"09:38
ServiceRobotif I were to go into software development now, what linux has taught me is that modularity is very important09:38
ServiceRobotsystemd seems to be splitting the community heavily. that already tells me something is wrong if it has to come to that09:38
bozoniusit would be a LOT of work, but I wonder if it might actually make things better in the long run09:39
ServiceRobotmind you I used systemd when I first started linux. the only bug I encountered was a message that would say "A stop job is running" when I try to shut down my system09:40
ServiceRobotdrove me crazy after a while09:40
ServiceRobotI talked to someone else that said I shouldn't "deviate to a distro that has little support compared to what everyone else uses"09:41
ServiceRobotbut I like taking risks09:41
bozoniusof course they would say that09:41
ServiceRobothe's a sysadmin09:41
bozoniusF.U.D.09:41
bozoniussad09:42
ServiceRobotfrom his perspective, most production servers use debian, centos, or fedora (I think).09:42
ServiceRobotno one has forked centos or fedora like devuan did though09:42
bozoniuswhen I tried using Mageia 5, which was their first release with systemd, I felt like a stranger in my own house09:42
bozoniuswhere are my log files I wondered09:43
ServiceRobotI've seen that argument used as well. "binary logs"09:43
bozoniusoh, you have to run this contorted bunch of options to a new program so you can see the entries09:43
bozoniusit's much better that way I was told09:43
gnarfacebinary logs are a great idea if you're trying to install linux on a pocket watch with 256MB of storage, but when you're trying to get work done, logs need to be complete and reliable09:44
bozoniusstandardizing the format of the log files -- great idea.  But no reason to crunch them down into binary!09:44
ServiceRobotI'd be down for a linux watch actually. like WearOS. lol09:44
ServiceRobotis there no option to use regular logs?09:45
bozoniusyes09:45
ServiceRobotI mean an option is at least something09:45
bozoniusthere is a way to disable journalctl mechanism09:45
gnarfacei thought systemd will let you turn them back on but it just copies them from journalctl so if you crash you still lose all the last logs?09:45
gnarfacei could be wrong about that, that's just something i thought someone else said in here09:46
bozoniusi thought there was a way to tell systemd to log to somethng like syslog-ng or the like09:46
bozoniusI coudl be wrong09:46
bozonius*could09:46
ServiceRobotthat seems like a hacky solution09:46
gnarfaceyea i thought it was just pointing journalctl to rsyslogd09:46
* bozonius fingers: pay attention please!09:46
bozoniusmay be, idk. I've never tried it, nor have I wanted to.09:46
gnarfaceanyway, the summary is, systemd is the type of thing that sounds like a great plan in an executive board-room meeting, but we're all here because they couldn't prove it in practice.09:47
bozoniusAside from devuan, are there any other "linux" projects that are trying to establish some kind of bulkhead against further intrustion of systemd?09:47
gnarface(and we didn't think the old system was broke to begin with)09:47
bozonius(agreed!)09:47
ServiceRobotthere's a whole website that lists systemd-free distros09:48
bozoniusI loved CentOS until 709:48
gnarfacebozonius: slackware is still standing against the tide but it's literally one guy and he desperately needs donations09:48
bozoniusI looked09:48
ServiceRobotArtix is by far the best rolling release solution for me09:48
bozoniusI don't care for the way most of those distros are packaged.  Many lack straightforward installation scripts09:48
ServiceRobotas for stable releases I haven't settled yet. but devuan seems to be what I'll use09:48
dethathe old system was good. the motivation for the binary logs was good, but it should have been an optional extra09:48
bozoniusI also don't care for rolling release for my host systems09:49
ServiceRobotI gave Hyperbola a try but ran into problems with it09:49
bozoniusme too!09:49
ServiceRobotyou tried Hyperbola?09:49
bozoniusTried parabola also09:49
bozoniusyeah09:49
bozonius(trying to recall what the problem(s) was)09:49
ServiceRobotmain issue is that they are strictly libre so it won't work with game server software09:49
ServiceRobotnor do they offer help with it09:49
bozoniushave you ever tried to get help from Artix?  Or Anti-X?09:50
bozoniuszip09:50
ServiceRobotif you want to just run a LEMP setup, it's great for that09:50
ServiceRobotyes. they have an irc channel and a forum09:50
bozoniusI've even posted requests on their forums, and no response09:50
ServiceRobotthough I figure out most of my issues through google and only get advice from forums and irc09:50
bozoniussame here09:50
ServiceRobotsince I don't want to end of asking questions that can be solved with research09:51
ServiceRobot*end up09:51
bozoniuswhen they do respond, it feels like they are saying I am not capable of running a Linux box09:51
bozoniusbecause I can't decode their odd, incomplete way of  installing and configuring09:51
ServiceRobotthough I hate coming across someone with the same problem as me from like 2007 and no responses. google has no way of knowing if there are responses09:51
bozoniuslol.  Yeah, I find myself turning on custom filter in google search09:52
bozoniusrequest like the last 3 years worth09:52
ServiceRobotthose filters never save for me09:52
bozoniusthey are not helpful, no.  I think a lot of people gave up years ago09:52
ServiceRobotI'd say a problem worse than systemd at the moment is browser choice09:52
ServiceRobotcurrently I'm stuck between chromium or firefox09:52
bozoniusdesktops are limited on some of these distros09:53
ServiceRobotI could use something simpler but extensions extensions extensions!09:53
bozoniusunless you want to do a lot of manual configuring yourself09:53
ServiceRobotArch taught me the value of manual configuration09:53
bozoniusmanual configuration has its pluses09:53
ServiceRobotalso, I got devuan working on my usb with openrc. I don't use direct isos on my usb like I used to09:54
ServiceRobotI was getting tired of constantly reformatting it for other distros09:54
bozoniusbut what I really want for my main host system is a fixed release with mostly preconfigured default desktop and other programs.  I save the fun (Artix, Anti-X, Alpine, etc) for my VMs09:54
bozoniuscool09:55
ServiceRobotso I installed refind to a fat partition, and a btrfs partition with subsolvumes for different distros09:55
bozoniusany hard drives?09:55
ServiceRobotthough idk if btrfs is really meant to work on usbs. seems to work for me09:55
ServiceRobotI would use Alpine but I need multilib support09:55
ServiceRobotseems like Alpine would be a good router distro though if I ever build my own router09:56
bozoniusI've heard solid state drives like USB kind of break down after a while... they are limited to a certain number of writes or something09:56
ServiceRobotwell I only install the absolute minimum packages on the usbs. isos tend to have more than I want09:56
bozoniusI'd be using Alpine if it had a decent installer and, moreover, supported VirtualBox, which is my preferred VM tool09:57
ServiceRobotthis way I can modify the usb without reformatting it09:57
ServiceRobotand not dealing with squashfs09:57
bozonius(I've been using vbox since about 2010 or so and I like it)09:57
dethaalpine would make a decent router distro, but for a router I'd rather use openBSD or freeBSD09:57
ServiceRobotI was having trouble with virtualbox without systemd but got it working eventually09:57
ServiceRobotI heard openwrt is also good09:57
bozoniusI'm using IPfire and EndianFire for routers -- they are running as VM appliances!09:58
ServiceRobotthe router in our house has been replaced several times over the last few years from comcast. absolute garbage09:58
bozoniusamen to that!09:58
bozoniusand add TV service to that09:58
ServiceRobotI just took a networking class and have my final tomorrow, so I understand how to setup a network now09:58
bozoniussummer classes?09:59
bozoniusor is this for work?09:59
ServiceRobotsummer classes09:59
ServiceRobotI don't do much else with my time anyway09:59
bozonius:)09:59
bozoniusI think EndianFire has a very nice interface, though it is far more complicated than IPFire10:00
bozoniusI like both, actually.10:00
ServiceRobotwhat's EndianFire and IPFire?10:00
bozoniusI'm still learning how to do stuff with them10:00
bozoniusrouters10:00
ServiceRobotah10:00
bozoniusfirewall routers I  guess you'd say10:00
ServiceRobotwhat type of hardware would you need to custom build a router?10:00
bozoniusanything10:00
dethawhat throughput do you need for the router?10:01
ServiceRobotnot sure10:01
bozoniusfor a few years maybe 10 years ago, I was using my old Compaq Presario 486 for IPcop (from which IPFire forked)10:01
detha<100Mb/s: any old PC or single-board10:01
ServiceRobotI can just use a normal pc as a router?10:01
detha>100Mb/s: something with a decent NIC and some CPU power10:01
bozoniusI slipped in a couple of NICs (only 2 slots then, and they were ISA slots!)10:02
ServiceRobotif that's the case I can use the computer I was given by a friend to do it10:02
bozoniusgot excellent performance10:02
ServiceRobotit's a nice modifiable case that was used in production I think10:02
bozoniusdetha: eh, don't need much power for firewall router for a home system10:02
ServiceRobotwhen it was given to me it had windows 10 installed on it. wiped that shit fast10:02
bozoniusif you are going to run the filters they provide, then you'd need more horses I think10:03
bozoniusthe filters slow things down a lot, I found10:03
dethabozonius: exactly. my home router is a 386 deskpro that refuses to die10:03
bozonius:D10:03
bozoniusThe only reason I  stopped using the Compaq Presario 486 was because it ran extrmely hot and was starting to melt10:04
bozoniusit made my bedroom extemely warm especially in summer even with the A/C on10:04
ServiceRobotthat sounds pretty dangerous actually10:04
bozoniusand to think I paid about $2500 for that box new...10:04
ServiceRobotdid you clear the dust out?10:05
bozoniusMaybe I needed to clean it out or something10:05
bozoniusexactly10:05
ServiceRobotlol10:05
bozoniuslol10:05
bozoniusif you saw the thing, you'd understand.  It was an "all-in-one" which I think was Compaq's response to Apple's10:05
bozoniuswhat was that called again?10:06
bozoniusanyway, it had very little clearance inside or out10:06
bozoniustiny screen, low res10:07
bozoniusthough it was color...10:07
bozoniusI maxed it out to the full 20MB of ram10:07
bozonius(not kidding)10:07
bozoniusand if you think that is funny, it only came with 4MB!!!10:08
bozoniusoh, it was called the G3 (Apple)10:08
bozoniusdetha:  As long as it works and doesn't run up your electric bill too badly, no reason not to let it run forever10:09
dethabozonius: those things are fairly light on power, I've got a total of 7Mb/s on all outgoing links, so yeah. It works. It maxes out openvpn at about 40Mb/s though10:11
dethaso vpn into wifi routers can be a tad slow10:11
bozoniuswhat does your ISP provide though?10:11
ServiceRobotanyway, in the next couple of days I'll be setting up Devuan and praying nothing breaks10:12
dethathere's 3 links, one 5Mb/s, one 2Mb/s, one 3g of varying slowness10:12
bozoniusback when I used the compaq 486, I was only getting about 1Mb down (2005?)10:12
ServiceRobotsee y'all10:12
bozoniussee you ServiceRobot10:12
bozoniusso even at 10Mbps, those 2 NICs on my compaq were actually much faster than anything I was getting from the net10:13
bozoniusplenty fast enough10:13
bozoniustoday, that would be a huge bottleneck.  Even if I put in 100Mbps NICs (I don't know, did they ever make 100BaseT for ISA cards?) it would still be a bottle neck now, since we get around 200Mbs down around here10:14
bozoniusabout 10-12 up usually10:14
bozoniusdetha: Haven't tried VPN really.  A few years ago, briefly, at home, but not seriously10:15
bozoniusI should play with openvpn a bit...10:16
dethabozonius: anything wireless is automatically untrusted, so it gets a VPN on top of it10:17
bozoniusI agree about wireless, which is why I avoid it at all costs10:17
bozoniusI ran a cat 6 cable from my room to the Comcast router!10:17
bozoniusnot only more stable and trusty, but Waaaaaaay faster10:17
bozoniusare you running wireless "ac" or still on "n"?10:18
bozoniusmultichannel?10:18
bozoniusalso, detha, both IPFire and Endian FW provide separate zones for hardwire and wireless10:20
bozoniusyou can have up to 4 zones (so called red, green, blue and orange)10:20
bozoniusthe blue and orange are for wireless and dmz, but I forget which is which now10:20
bozoniusthat isolates the wireless portion of the network from the rest of it10:21
bozoniustime to reboot my host... later10:29
dethalaters10:29
xrogaando you guys know if it is possible to request a backport?14:59
golinuxxrogaan: I know it is possible to build and offer a backport.  ;)15:12
_abc_SegmentSmack -clean kernel update for devuan already out?18:15
_abc_*ascii18:15
_abc_??18:27
_abc_fsmithread not in? What is going on? Abandonware? ;)18:33
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: here?18:33
_abc_references: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/08/07/segmentsmack/18:35
_abc_Debian already have a kernel out to mitigate this bug18:38
_abc_Is it too early for serious questions Wednesday?18:45
MinceR"Does it matter?"18:46
_abc_"no", what's your public IP, I would like to test the exploit on your machine now19:01
_abc_MinceR: ^19:01
djph_abc_: 127.0.0.1; or if you prefer IPv6, ::119:15
_abc_djph: It was meant as a sarcastic joke.19:41
_abc_djph: erm, you do not have a cloak. /whois knows who you are by ip19:41
djph_abc_: so was the 127... as for the cloak ... meh20:01
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: hmm?20:14
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: scroll back , there's an exploit against kernel 4.9+; ascii has that; debian has the patched kernel, what about devuan?20:15
DocScrutinizer05I see20:15
DocScrutinizer05devuan using debian kernel20:16
_abc_ok20:16
DocScrutinizer05it's a metadistro, you know?20:16
_abc_no system contamination in the kernel? I thought kernel log daemon lives in it now20:16
DocScrutinizer05I guess there are no systemd specific patches needed in kernel and IP stack, so devuan==debian20:17
DocScrutinizer05I'm not an expert, wait for the kernel guys20:17
DocScrutinizer05I also guess when we need a kernel patch to keep systemd out, this will be the day Linux dies20:19
DocScrutinizer05Linus**  Torvalds20:19
DocScrutinizer05linux too20:19
DocScrutinizer05_abc_: many thanks for hollering anyway20:20
_abc_DocScrutinizer05: https://thenewstack.io/systemd-vs-linux-kernel/ and many more20:21
_abc_https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/20:23
DocScrutinizer05loooomg stories with old stuff. Nothing indicates Linus will allow systemd dependencies in kernel20:27
DocScrutinizer05at least I can't see anything indicating that20:28
furrywolfI suspect that if you tried putting anything systemd into the kernel, he would explain to you exactly where you should insert it instead, using many four-letter words.20:29
DocScrutinizer05Linus might imlement anti-systemd measures to kernel when he gets fed up with some particular nasty behavior but the kernel will not depend on systemd being present due to them20:29
DocScrutinizer05furrywolf: exactly :-P20:29
Ryccardo|Adoesn´t systemd have a text editor yet?20:31
DocScrutinizer05for Lennart:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjPlhb4f9P820:33
DocScrutinizer05>> So take your meditations an' your preparations An' ram it up yer snout<<20:35
* MinceR didn't get the joke20:37
DocScrutinizer05well, for me Lennart is the prottype of a snake oil doctor20:38
DocScrutinizer05or was that about the text editor? I guess there's no joke in it20:39
DocScrutinizer05^^^ was a joke ;-) Though I'm afraid a joke that will turn bitter soon20:44
MinceR_abc_'s "joke"20:56
premobossi'm using devuan 2.0. i can not install vlc, apt report unmet dependange. even if i try to install dependances, no way to install. what is wrong with vlc on devuan?21:03
debdogpremoboss: can't install it here either. seems to be something wrong with a server/repo21:16
debdogErr http://deb.devuan.org//merged ascii-security/main i386 libavutil55 i386 7:3.2.12-1~deb9u121:16
debdog  404  Not Found [IP: 185.183.113.129 80]21:16
premobossdebdog, ok. nice to see is not my fault.21:16
debdog--- 185.183.113.129 ping statistics ---21:17
debdog4 packets transmitted, 4 received, 0% packet loss, time 2998ms21:17
debdogserver itself does respond21:17
premobossif i try to install, i get error of unmet dependences21:18
aggrorapremoboss: does it tell you which ones?21:19
premobossvlc : Dipende: vlc-plugin-base (= 3.0.3-1-0+deb9u1) ma non sta per essere installato21:19
premobossan many others after that21:19
debdogare these by chance libavutil55, libswresample2 and libavcodec5721:20
premobossshall i install those libs previously than vlc?21:20
* debdog is using aptitude since it has more helpful error messages than apt-get.21:20
debdognever tried apt TBH21:21
premobosslibavutil55 is already installed21:21
premobosswhaty menas TBH?21:21
debdogto be honest21:21
aggroraI have had to install packages in a specific order sometimes to make it work. Like dependencis first yes.21:22
premobossdebdog, how do you install sithount apt-get?21:22
premobosswithout*21:22
debdoglike "aptitude install vlc"21:22
MinceRhm, i should try aptitude then, i'm sick of apt excuses for error messages21:22
debdogor "apt ...."21:22
MinceR"but it's not going to be installed"21:22
premobossok, go to install aptitude21:23
debdoghere is my entire output: https://dpaste.de/1CLA/raw21:23
debdogno clue how to solve it though21:24
premobossalso aptitude has problems to install vlc21:24
debdogmayhap it's just a temporary issue21:25
premobossvlc : Dipende: vlc-l10n (= 3.0.3-1-0+deb9u1) but it is not going to be installed21:25
premobossvlc-plugin-base : Dipende: vlc-data (= 3.0.3-1-0+deb9u1) but it is not going to be installed21:25
aggroraare you able to install other packages?21:25
debdogpremoboss: yes, but it might return a more helpful error message? what's the entire output?21:25
premobossdebdog, can you try aptitude install vlc to see if you get problems too?21:25
debdogpremoboss: I did: https://dpaste.de/1CLA/raw21:26
premobossthen press "q" to refuse install.21:26
premobossmmm that repo semms to fail. i use another one.21:26
debdogalso, are backports involved?21:27
premobosstry deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/ jessie main contrib non-free21:27
premobossi activated also ascii-backport, yes21:27
saptechprembossm have you ran apt-get update?21:28
premobosssaptech, of course21:29
saptechare it should have addressed to debdog21:29
debdogpremoboss: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt  "IMPORTANT NOTE: Devuan has planned to eventually discontinue the original set of Devuan mirrors available at auto.mirror.devuan.org and21:36
debdog{CC}.mirror.devuan.org. As a consequence, users are strongly encouraged to use the new set of mirrors at "deb.devuan.org" and "{CC}.deb.devuan.org"."21:36
premobossdebdog, i changed the repos ,but vlc still cdoes not install21:44
debdogyes21:54
debdogbut do you get the same error than I do? also, backports adds another layer which I am not familiar with, so I am probably unable to help21:55
debdogpremoboss: ^21:56
premobossdebdog, i have the same problem i had before, i have not the problem that you paste.21:57
debdogwithout checking further I assume it might be an issue with version mismatch of backports vs. std. repo21:59
premobossok, you did also enough. thanks for your effort22:00
premobossi wait some days and try again.22:00
debdogplus stick around, mayhap with more knowledge will chive in22:01
debdoghmm, chive is not the word I was looking for22:01
debdog*chime in22:01

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