freenode/#devuan/ Monday, 2018-08-20

gnarfacejust state your problem as clearly as possible00:00
gnarfaceif you ask a question you might get an answer00:01
andi89giokay sry - well maybe you've all heard the question x-times; but I'm interested in installing Devuan instead of Debian. The only difference is that Devuan doesn't use systemd?00:03
gnarfacefor the most part00:05
gnarfaceyou'll probably want to see this https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt00:06
fsmithreddownload one of the installer isos and you'll install with a modified version of the debian installer00:06
gnarfaceyea the installer will be the same basically00:06
fsmithredthe live isos use refractainstaller, which copies the running live system to hard drive00:07
andi89giah thx - I00:07
fsmithredthe default desktop is xfce400:07
fsmithredbut you can have others instead00:08
fsmithredjust don't ask for gnome00:08
andi89giI have read this - and why is it better to use init than systemd? - I don't know much about this discussion00:08
fsmithredgoogle is your friend00:08
andi89gixfce4 is good - gnome is not my favourite00:08
golinuxSo is #debianfork00:08
andi89gihehe yes that's true00:08
fsmithredif you've been using debian for more than a couple years, devuan will feel very familiar00:10
andi89giWell I just used it for 2-3 month for testing it -it was a stable system. But sometimes I want to have some updated versions of browsers or programs. Hmmm as I undersand the discussion between systemd/init is that info&ip server datas will be send to google etc.?00:12
gnarfacethey're saying it's about sending data to google?00:15
gnarfaceinteresting...00:15
golinux#debianfork00:16
gnarfaceandi89gi: nobody wants to talk about this in here, because it always starts a fight, go to #debianfork if you want to talk about it00:16
gnarfacei'll explain it to you there00:16
gnarfacethe short version is that the old init wasn't broken00:16
andi89giok gnarface I've joined the channel00:19
cehtehcurious question, can one upgrade a debian jessie to devuan ascii?00:28
fsmithredcehteh, yes00:31
cehtehah thanks00:32
fsmithredhttps://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/migrate-to-ascii00:33
fsmithredcehteh, ^^^00:33
cehtehnot so important yet00:36
gmcastilhave an older inspiron 1525 and the live USB installer just hangs on boot - any suggestions for debug from here ?08:55
gmcastilcomplains about a problem reading data from a CD-ROM08:56
gmcastiland thats as far as i can get08:56
andi89giHi, I have a problem to configure wifi - i installed broadcom drivers via synaptic - but i do not have any wifi connection13:20
hollagmcastil: i'n not aware of this issue but since no one else answered yet, here are some suggestions: 1. check checksum to make sure your dl isn't corrupted -- 2. null your stick: 'dd if=/dev/null of=/dev/sdX' where '/dev/sdX' is your pendrive !!double check to make sure you choose the right device!! -- recreate mbr on your pendrive by gparted, or (s)fdisk, or fixparts -- redo the copy 'dd13:44
hollaif=/path/to/devuan-live-desktop.iso of=/dev/sdX conv=sync && sync' -- try again13:44
xrogaanif I remember correctly, it's feasible to move from jessie to ascii in one go, right?15:58
Leanderif by "one go" you mean editing your sources.list then apt update, apt dist-upgrade, then yes15:59
xrogaannevermind, I need to format the disk anyhow16:45
xrogaanI recuperated an old Dell optiplex GX62016:46
xrogaanit has 2 drives: 80gb and 160gb16:46
baimafeimaHello Devuan team, are there any plans to make Devuan more accessible for beginners?17:37
baimafeimaotherwise justice and freedom is mostly for intermediate users or experts17:37
baimafeimawhich wouldn't be very just, would it?17:37
gnarfacewell17:37
gnarfacethere is17:37
gnarfaceit's your lucky day17:37
gnarfacewe have a plan to make beginners more accessible for devuan17:38
gnarfacestate your problem or question and someone will answer it17:38
gnarfacebefore long you won't be a beginner17:38
baimafeimaif there is any way I can help, I'd be happy to17:38
baimafeimaI'm a new Linux user and my fresh perspective may help increase accessiblity17:39
gnarfacewell whether you're a beginner or not, the best way to figure that out is hang out in here for a while17:39
baimafeimawho is the main developer or orginator of devuan?17:39
gnarfaceteam list here: https://devuan.org/os/team/17:40
gnarfaceand a great forum post here: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=58917:41
baimafeimagnarface, thanks, just read through it17:45
baimafeimais there a flagship desktop environment? I clicked on download but didn't find any info about this17:45
baimafeimaso I'm not sure what I'll actually install with a download17:46
gnarfacethe default is xfce417:46
gnarfacewith i think slim for a gui login manager17:46
gnarfacebut those are just defaults, you can change them17:47
golinuxbaimafeima: You can try default Devuan by booting from the desktop-live iso17:47
golinuxYou can also install from there if you like what yousee.17:47
baimafeimagnarface, I didn't find any information that xfce is the default desktop environment and also cannot find the live iso images17:48
gnarfacewhere are you looking?17:48
baimafeimagolinux, it looks like it's not very accessible for beginners yet17:48
xrogaanwhat to do when a mirror returned by deb.devuan.org doesn't have certain packet?17:48
baimafeimathe download section on the website17:49
xrogaanpackage*17:49
baimafeimahttps://devuan.org/get-devuan17:49
gnarfacexrogaan: take a deep breath and try again17:49
xrogaanthe same mirror gets used, is there a way to blacklist it temporarily?17:49
xrogaanit's just one ip address17:50
gnarfacehmmm.  maybe it's the only one in your region...17:50
xrogaanI doubt it17:50
baimafeimagnarface, https://devuan.org/get-devuan I cannot find anything suitable there17:50
baimafeimai'm looking for something as easy as Solus17:50
gnarfacebaimafeima: go into the /devuan/devuan_ascii/ directory and read the README.txt17:50
baimafeimahttps://solus-project.com/download/17:50
baimafeimabut unfortunately solus is committed to open source but not free software17:50
baimafeimagnarface, that's too complicated for me, sorry17:51
gnarfaceit's not, you can do it17:51
gnarfacei have faith in you17:51
baimafeimagnarface, found it17:53
baimafeimamy point is not to make it accessible for me but for everyone, so that it won't be necessary where to find these versions here on IRC17:53
baimafeimaI hope that Devuan strives to become the easiest to use operating system, something which Debian failed to do17:54
gnarfacethat's a more difficult task than you think17:54
gnarfacehere's what i can promise you17:54
baimafeimaI'm willing to help out as much as I can by pointing in the right direction from my beginners's perspective17:55
gnarface... if you forget all about that and just work on learning devuan, soon you won't care17:55
baimafeimagnarface, yeah but that's the problem, then I will grow into an intermediate user but it remains inaccessible for others17:55
gnarfacepossibly, but also there may be a threshold below which you just can't feasibly help someone who refuses the READMEs17:56
baimafeimagnarface, the more I will hang out in the devuan community, the more I will get used to how things run and this is precisely the danger...I'd like to keep a distance, to participate but yet remain a distant observer who looks at the subject matter for the first time17:56
baimafeimaonly then it's possible to see flaws which others don't see17:56
gnarfaceeh, that's less of a risk than you think17:57
gnarfaceyou'll still remember what it was like to be new17:57
baimafeimagnarface, what about striving for accessibility without the need for a readme file, everything necessary could be on the website itself, right below the download link17:57
gnarfaceuh, honestly that task may be lacking little other than consensus of what to put there and a volunteer to do the work17:58
gnarfacethere's a lot of little changes that could be made to the website to help like that17:58
gnarfacebut keep in mind, you're still trading reading for reading17:58
baimafeimagnarface, do I understand it correctly that Devuan strives to be wholly independet from debian?17:59
gnarfacethat is not quite accurate17:59
gnarfaceit's a huge oversimplified statement17:59
baimafeimagnarface, what would be the best format to help initiate these changes or talk about it? here on irc or elsewhere?17:59
gnarfacedevuan is compeltely independent of debian except for the fact that most the packages come directly from debian, unaltered17:59
gnarfaceso it's no more independent of debian than ubuntu, for example18:00
baimafeimagnarface, so packaging technology will stay the same or are there any plans on using a different package manager? I have been around for around two years in the Solus community and I like some of their ideas, such as that a package manager should only be there to deploy software but not to install software, so ideally a user should not have any contact with the package manager at all18:01
koollmanWould it be useful to autoinclude the readme content on the related pages (or simply add a link to it) ? :)18:01
gnarfacebaimafeima: there is a forum, there is a gitlab, and there is a mailing list https://devuan.org/os/development18:01
koollmanbaimafeima: unlikely to change unless you can get very very convincing18:01
gnarfacebaimafeima: i'm not actually in the loop but i know currently of no plans to alter fundamental components of the distro that haven't been tied to systemd in a way that makes it necessary to do so18:02
baimafeimaI see18:02
koollmanmaybe if dpkg or apt-get start to require systemd ...18:02
gnarfacebaimafeima: (maybe the part you're missing is we all actually liked the way debian used to be)18:02
gnarfacekoollman: my idea would be more along the lines of a "quick start" page that just directs them to the live image18:03
baimafeimaI'm an absolute Solus fan, I think architecturally they get things right (let's forget about systemd for a second, I don't really have much of an opinion and don't understand it) but concerning how they build the distro from the ground up which a permanent questioning attitude: just because it works doesn't mean it should stay that way...I perceive it as extremely innovative...the only issue I have with Solus is the open18:04
baimafeimasource/free software commitment, so esssentially they lack ethical awareness to put it simply18:04
koollmanbaimafeima: we're more likely to want to not change things. Because they mostly worked, and stability is nice :)18:04
gnarfacebaimafeima: oh, that sounds exactly opposite of this distro's current goals.18:04
baimafeimagnarface, yeah...18:04
gnarfacebaimafeima: but!  if you wanted to make YOUR OWN distro in the lines of something like Solus, devuan could be a good choice for a base18:05
Akulia quick start page might be nice18:05
gnarfacebaimafeima: there are actually other distros already using devuan as a base.  some new ones, and some that used to be using debian.18:05
baimafeimagnarface, I'm too far away knowledge-wise to be able to pull this off :D18:05
Akulinot much work to write or maintain, but makes it much easier to find wit18:05
Akulii think googling for "devuan download" should bring to a page with clear instructions18:05
Akulialso i wish the README said which version is newer, ascii or jessie18:06
gnarfaceit's ascii, just fyi18:06
Akulii know18:06
Akulibut it wasn't easy to figure out from the readme, and i don't want to read lots of stuff just to get an iso downloaded18:06
baimafeimattyl, need to be out for a while18:10
BeerbelottDoes anyone know why old kernels seem not to be removed on kernel upgrade anymore?19:15
Beerbelotthttp://paste.debian.net/1038655/19:17
gnarfaceit'll remove them eventually19:18
gnarfacelike when it thinks you can't boot them anymore19:18
gnarfaceyou don't actually need to keep them around19:19
gnarfacebut it's a good idea to keep the previous one or two versions just in case of emergencies19:19
gnarfaceyou might need to have the linux-image-amd64 and linux-headers-amd64 meta-packages though19:21
gnarfaceit won't upgrade to new ones without those anyway19:21
gnarface(i presume linux-image-i386 and linux-headers-i386 if you're not on 64-bit)19:21
BeerbelottFrom what I understood from /etc/kernel/postinst.d/apt-auto-removal, it is supposed to merely keep the last 2 versions only19:23
BeerbelottI ran commands from this script manually and it correctly lists more than that19:24
gnarfaceoh, i dont' know19:24
gnarfacei guess i don't know what it's "supposed to do" but i think typically i see them kept them around until the gcc version that went with them gets removed19:25
gnarfacewhich usually doesn't happen until you're doing a dist-upgrade19:27
BeerbelottI run the script I mentioned earlier by stripping the modifying parts in the end, just to display what would otherwise be written to a conf file: http://paste.debian.net/1038657/19:28
Beerbelottthat's actually the content of /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/01autoremove-kernels, where it's written19:32
BeerbelottOK I am still running 4.9.0-7-amd64, not having rebooted on the latest update, thus it shall keep this and 4.9.0-619:34
Beerbelottbut this 4.9.0-5 is awkward19:35
gnarfacehmmm19:38
gnarfaceno i don't think it should be doing that19:38
gnarfaceit the -?- number is the debian package revision19:38
gnarfaceit should have replaced 4.9.0-5 with 4.9.0-6 and then 4.9.0-7 after that19:39
gnarfaceit shouldn't have all 3 at once19:39
gnarfaceif you reboot, 4.9.0-5 and 4.9.0-6 should no longer be an option because 4.9.0-7 has replaced them19:39
gnarfacei haven't run into any problems with that happening here19:40
gnarfacebut ymmv if you started mixing kernels from other distros19:40
gnarfaceBeerbelott: ^19:40
gnarfacemaybe during the upgrade you were looking for it to say it removed the old ones, and missed that it said it actually overwrote them?19:42
gnarfacemy own /etc/kernel/postinst.d/apt-auto-removal file on ceres looks like a set of masks that matches all the kernels going back to 3.119:44
gnarfacemaybe it keeps them longer if you installed them manually instead of as part of an upgrade to linux-image-amd64?19:45
golinuxgnarface:  My upgrades on Devuan have never kept the old kernel.  :( You know where to configure it to keep the last one?19:49
BeerbelottMmmh wait: Your version (1.4.8) of apt appears to be out of date.19:50
BeerbelottSomething is WRONG on the Internet :P19:50
BeerbelottIs using 'http://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged ascii' a problem?19:51
gnarfacegolinux: no, i'm really not sure what the pattern is now.  i know if you don't have the "linux-image-[arch]" and "linux-headers-[arch]" package installed it won't upgrade the kernel automatically though, so i'm hypothesizing that maybe installing them by their full package names and NOT having the meta-packages installed is the difference?19:52
gnarfaceafter all, if it's not upgrading the package for you, it's not removing the old one either19:52
gnarfacebut then you have to search the repo for kernel updates to get them :-/19:52
BeerbelottOh crap...19:53
Beerbelottpkgmaster.devuan.org.   1222    IN      A       5.196.38.1819:53
Beerbelottdeb.devuan.org.         3589    IN      CNAME   deb.roundr.devuan.org.19:53
Beerbelottdeb.roundr.devuan.org.  86390   IN      A       185.26.197.819:53
Beerbelott[...]19:53
BeerbelottSomeone on this channel advised me to use pkgmaster in the past ^^19:53
gnarfaceit's a tradeoff19:53
gnarfacei tend to do it one way for servers but the other way for desktops19:53
BeerbelottIt was at the time auto.mirror was doing strange stuff19:53
gnarfaceberndj: it's now just "deb"19:53
gnarfaceberndj: ignore me19:53
gnarfaceBeerbelott: it's now just "deb"19:53
gnarfacedeb.devuan.org is the new auto.mirror.devuan.org19:54
BeerbelottI read about that but did not actually check if it was a mere alias or not...19:54
gnarfaceit's a round-robin19:54
berndjhaha, set your tab nick completion to last-spoken order :p19:54
Beerbelottpkgmaster does not seem to provide the same versions19:54
gnarfaceBeerbelott: (using pkgmaster directly was a temporary measure)19:55
golinuxYes, please use deb.devuan.org19:55
golinuxIt was in the Release Notes and on the website.  ;)19:55
golinuxDang . . . he left . . .19:57
golinuxBeerbelott: Yes, please use deb.devuan.org20:00
golinuxIt was in the Release Notes and on the website.  ;)20:00
BeerbelottYup, it was a remainder of past troubles20:02
Beerbelottanyway wrong lead: reportbug is merely talking about stuff in unstable branches from debian20:02
BeerbelottSHall we use reportbug for Devuan bugs? Is it routed properly to Devuan bug tracker?20:02
fsmithrednot sure if the bugtracker is working right now20:12
fsmithredthere are a bunch of bugs filed against it20:12
fsmithredand I know that the bug I filed about a month ago didn't show up. Not sure what happened with that - went on vacation.20:13
fsmithreddid that by email as usual, to submit@bugs.devuan.org20:14
fsmithredso...20:14
fsmithred  /dev/md0 doesn't work anymore20:14
fsmithredto be more specific, during update-initramfs, cryptsetup complains if you have something like /dev/md0 in crypttab20:15
fsmithredbut /dev/md/0 or /dev/md/some-name works20:15
fsmithredand I now know how to do encrypted raid with lvm using refractainstaller20:17
golinuxI have only used email to report a bug to bugs,devuan.org20:18
BeerbelottWell I used reportbug to help me craft a mail message20:20
Beerbelottand I sent it manually20:20
fsmithredcheck in a little while to see if it shows up20:21
BeerbelottIt has been delivered (250) to submit@bugs.devuan.org... That's all I know20:21
fsmithredI think you'll get a response that gives you the bug number20:21
fsmithredthen you can go to bugs.devuan.org to see your report20:22
gnarfaceberndj: thanks for the tip, but it turns out it was already set to that.  i guess case-sensitivity throws it off though.20:25
Beerbelottfsmithred: I sure will be axiously awaiting for that email ;)20:28
Beerbelottgnarface: Sry to break auto-completion :p20:29
xrogaanerr, anybody knows how to send a machine into hibernation from cli?22:42
xrogaanoh, pm-hibenate22:49
BeerbelottWell... No mail from bugs.devuan.org. I guess that's a fail23:22
gnarfaceyou used reportbug to submit it?23:25
gnarfacei'm not sure if it's wired up right by default23:27
gnarfaceit may need a config file changed to point to bugs.devuan.org23:27
golinuxDid you send it by email?23:29
golinuxI could never get reportbug to work properly.23:29
gnarfacei thought i remembered someone saying it worked if reconfigured23:30

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