freenode/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2018-09-18

golinuxwill_haven: Can't remember anyone ever trying that.  If it's a rolling release based on Buster, probably not because our Beowulf hasn't seen much love yet.01:30
drwhitehi folks, got a small query.. I tried to install something but I was unable to install it because it could not install itself. is this typical of some Debian things?02:25
EHeM"Could not install itself"?02:28
gnarfacedrwhite: no.  you're gonna have to be more specific.02:28
buZzmaybe denote what you tried to install02:30
buZzand post the actual error02:30
buZzqmail/stable 1.06-6+b1 amd6402:31
drwhiteI performed an install, it tried to install another thing alongside it, and it failed to install both because qmail requires qmail02:31
buZznow, whats the error?02:31
buZzapt install qmail works totally fine here02:32
buZzdrwhite: perhaps you forget to do 'apt update'02:32
drwhiteDevuan Ascii?02:32
gnarfacedrwhite: when you say "along side it" do you mean that you tried two installs in parallel?02:32
buZzdrwhite: yes02:32
drwhiteapt install qmail        tried to install qmail and qmail-core02:32
buZzdrwhite: do apt update first02:33
drwhiteqmail required qmail.02:33
buZzit should totally just work without effort02:33
drwhiteI did update02:33
drwhiteThis is why I am confused02:33
buZzthen start posting a log to pastebin02:33
drwhitebecause it shold just have worked, but didn't.02:33
buZzas your description isnt making sense02:33
drwhitenow I just have to work out how to copy and paste it to a pastebin02:34
Xenguy /var/log/messages ?02:34
buZzdrwhite: select in terminal , middleclick in pastebin02:34
drwhiteI'll have to just type it..02:34
buZzdont type ffs02:34
drwhiteif it was that easy I would02:35
buZz02:34:46 < buZz> drwhite: select in terminal , middleclick in pastebin02:35
buZzit literally is that easy02:35
Xenguy  <-- I think02:35
drwhiteI'll have to unblock some things to get acess to one of those insecure pastebin websites.02:35
Xenguydrwhite: This one should play nice02:36
buZzi'm sure you can be capable of finding a etherpad or pastebin you DO trust without complaining02:36
drwhiteno, I don't really trust any..02:36
buZzso you're hosting your own?02:36
drwhitemy trust is very very very hard to earn02:37
drwhiteI have my own servers, yes02:37
drwhite(not in the cloud)02:37
buZzyet, hosting a txtfile is too much effort?02:37
drwhitei.e. (not on someone elses PC)02:37
drwhiteYou said to use a pastebin.02:37
gnarfacedrwhite: just paste it to me privately and *i'll* pastebin it for you02:38
buZzsure -a-02:38
buZzdrwhite: that wasnt a invitation to boast about your mistrust of them02:38
buZzi was a attempt to help you02:38
buZzif you dont want help, the complaining is a good route02:38
drwhiteI'm waiting for it to start. loil02:38
gnarfacelets see here... i'm seeing in ascii, qmail, qmail-run, qmail-tools, qmail-uids-gids...  no qmail-core.  is it possible you're just looking for a package that has been renamed, drwhite?02:42
drwhiteit wasn't core02:43
drwhiteit was run02:43
gnarfacejust making sure02:43
gnarfacedetails matter here02:43
drwhiteyeah, understandable, it is the core that it couldn't install to install run which tries to install when I install qmail02:43
drwhiteI know they matter, that's why I am gettign the log02:43
buZzqmail and qmail-run just install fine here02:43
XenguyAre you running the same issue?02:44
gnarfacewait, qmail-core shouldn't exist drwhite.  if you're even seeing that in your error output you've got a non-devuan problem on your hands.02:44
buZzXenguy: both ascii02:44
gnarface(typically this type of thing is caused by incomplete upgrades from another distro or mixed repository munging)02:44
gnarface(sometimes it can even be the result of a pre-upgrade package tree corruption)02:45
gnarface(using ubuntu PPAs causes this alot)02:45
gnarfacemaybe we should have a look at your /etc/apt/sources.list, drwhite?02:46
drwhitethe sources.list is what was defined on the Devuan website02:47
buZzragequit? :P02:47
XenguyNot sure02:47
buZzor figured out he just had a typo02:47
gnarfaceoh, he is probably using auto.mirror.*... someone really outta update that02:48
buZzmaybe he finally noticed the 404's ;)02:49
golinuxWe can't decommission auto.mirror because the isos ship with it.02:50
golinuxWe've talked about creating new isos but even then someone might have an old iso laying around and try to use it.02:51
gnarfaceand we can't update it to redirect to either?02:51
Xenguyredirects, aha02:51
golinuxIt requires the new key to be installed.02:52
golinuxA simple redirect will fail without it.02:53
gnarfaceand it's no good just changing the DNS entries?02:53
gnarfaceoh, right because you'd still need a new key on the disks02:53
gnarfacewell that's annoying02:53
golinuxIf it were, don't you think it would have been done by now?02:54
buZzwho knows golinux02:58
buZzit helps to talk about it, to grow realisation ;)02:59
golinuxKatolaZ knows how all the repos are set up and their limitations.  Other too.03:03
golinuxbuZz: are you in the right thread?03:03
buZzno, i'm in the 6th one over from the middle03:04
golinuxNow I'm really confused.03:05
buZzgolinux: hi really confused03:10
buZzi am buZz03:10
XenguyTo Infinity and Beyond!!!03:12
buZz> Contact light.03:23
buZzthats the only buzz quote that matters03:24
EHeMgnarface: The dependancies are qmail-run depends on qmail depends on qmail-uids-gids; qmail *recomends* qmail-run, so it may be trying to install qmail-run before qmail, which won't work.03:24
EHeMgnarface: Try `dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/qmail_*.deb`, then do back to APT.03:24
buZzi just did apt install qmail , and got qmail-run added03:25
EHeMbuZz: Which means you're auto-installing recommends.03:25
gnarfaceEHeM: noted, but i wasn't the one having problems with it.  that was drwhite who left before giving us enough info to go on.03:25
EHeMMy eyes were elsewhere, I already have qmail installed and configured so I'm in a good position to give advice if I'm looking at the right place at the right time.03:27
XenguyGood info in any case03:27
EHeMThe next project after purging systemd should be to start making library dependancies optional, those are a really knotted web and making a few optional (libtool, or other) would be a massive improvement.03:28
buZzEHeM: too bad the dude who needed help didnt like to stay around for it03:29
XenguyHe got triggered as you say, perhaps03:29
XenguyEven when IRC was busier, you still have to commit and engage to get answers you need03:30
EHeMEver tried to build a desktop *without* *any* SQL library?  This is very hard to do, though MySQL has heavily improved their security track-record (no more security hole of the week, now Qemu is taking a hit).03:30
XenguyIf people don't hang around, what can we do?03:30
gnarfacehope they read the public lgs03:31
golinuxYou do know that botbot is going away in Nov. IIRC04:02
gnarfaceno, i didn't know04:02
gnarfaceor at least, if i did, i forgot04:03
golinuxJoerg has public logs and there is another one on dev1galaxy server but don't know how much traffic it can handle.04:06
FatPhilEHeM: I think some cleaning up can be done just in the declared package dependencies - many "depends" are in reality "recommends" or even "enhances" relationships.04:26
FatPhili once forcably nuked avahi off my system, whatever thing that depended on whatever thing that depended on whatever thing that depended on avahi worked just fine afterwards (some media player, possibly samba in the middle)04:28
EHeMFatPhil: Libraries tend to be genuine "requires"; however, often the functionality provided by the library is optional, instead the libraries should be dlopen()/dlsym()/dlclose() so that they really become optional.04:46
EHeMAlternatively the build-time portion of linking needs to have a simpler way of marking dependancies as optional so developers take advantage more often.04:47
FatPhilEHeM: yup, the ones that nark me are inter-app deps, not lib ones. I have to just trust lib deps without looking at the code.05:09
EHeMLibrary dependancies are nearly always linked in at runtime, which means things break if the library is absent; meanwhile far too often extra libraries are nice in some circumstances, but bad in others.05:23
FatPhilyup, and of course some "lib*" packages aren't even linked objects, they're scripts for perl/etc.05:25
FatPhiljust noticed a weird one, aptitude why libfcgi-perl just lied to me - it didn't mention libcgi-fast-perl at all.05:26
EHeMThe standard libmailutils5 package depends upon guile-2.0-libs, libkyotocabinet16v5, and libmariadbclient18; the latter two are valuable for large sites, but a security liability for small sites; worse what if a site wants to use PostgresSQL for *everything* and wants to nuke MariaDB?05:27
FatPhiljust doing a quick purge of unwanted pkgs, and I notice btrfs-tools, which is optional, depended on by noone, and certaily not selected by me.05:31
FatPhilsimilarly fbterm - what's that doing on my device?05:41
snowbumI have upgraded to 2 from 1. So perhaps this problem only occurs with an upgrade. I and am now using sddm with KDE 5 (Plasma 5 etc.) I noticed that there are now suspend and hibernate options on the K menu. However these only show up when sddm is restarted. Is this a dbus problem?06:55
snowbumWhen I have time I will try a fresh install.07:04
DocScrutinizer05hey FatPhil! long time no see :-)11:39
DocScrutinizer05though no surprise to find you in the "untainted linux" camp11:40
baimafeimaHi Devuan team, what do you think about
DocScrutinizer05bidevuan already has its own CoC12:37
DocScrutinizer05baimafeima: devuan already has its own CoC12:37
DocScrutinizer05apart from that, it's probably one of the cuter approaches as far as I can tell from scanning that document diagonally12:38
baimafeimai see12:40
DocScrutinizer05~seen jaromil13:17
DocScrutinizer05!seen jaromil13:17
infobotjaromil <~jaromil@devuan/developer/jaromil> was last seen on IRC in channel #devuan, 61d 21h 11s ago, saying: 'welcome'.13:17
DocScrutinizer05actually I think is quite possibly complementary to any CoC I would consider acceptable from my perspective, and thus I could imagine some of the  devuan VUAs want to sign it13:19
DocScrutinizer05maybe even refer/link to it from devuan's own CoC as complementary/background material on the topic13:20
DocScrutinizer05a 2 or 3 of the points in there are maybe arguable in their ambiguity though13:22
will_havenCoC for normal people: 1. don't be a cunt 2. see one13:47
Centurion_DanDocScrutinizer05: stop trolling...14:08
[_Deveryone who proposes a CoC, should be lynched14:40
[_Dit's just better that way14:40
[_Ddidn't Debian Woman genderbaiting campaign had impact in swaying Debian into systemd btw14:41
DocScrutinizer05Centurion_Dan: huh?14:48
DocScrutinizer05sorry when CoC is a blacklisted term, I don't kbnow the correct one14:49
Centurion_DanCoC's are the mark of the SJW...14:51
Centurion_DanSJW's bring us nothing but badness...14:51
* booyah woke-fives Centurion_Dan14:51
DocScrutinizer05Centurion_Dan: but seriously, please explain to me what exactly in my 6 lines answer to >><baimafeima> Hi Devuan team, what do you think about<< qaulified as trolling, otherwise I'm lost on how to stop it14:51
Centurion_DanDevuan has enough challenges to worry about CoC...14:52
DocScrutinizer05sorry, what's a SJW?14:52
booyahCoC is a codename for idiotic political correctness14:52
Centurion_DanAnd that particular example is absolutely dripping with SJW drool...14:52
Centurion_DanSocial Justice Warrior14:53
DocScrutinizer05meh, sorry seems this is a quicksand topic. I'm out, please delete my posts from all logs14:53
KatolaZyou see14:53
KatolaZnothing good out of CoC discussions :)14:54
DocScrutinizer05you said "CoC"!!!!14:54
Centurion_DanDocScrutinizer05: also happens to be off topic.14:54
KatolaZ(and we got a couple of releases out without a CoC...)14:55
DocScrutinizer05umm, really?14:55
DocScrutinizer05I recall hellekin and jaromil and a few others once wrote a document that somehow was as much on/off-topic as this discussion now14:55
Centurion_Dansure... and we've all done it... but the timing given what's suddenly occurred with Linus, it felt like trolling...14:57
DocScrutinizer05huh? what happened with linus?14:57
DocScrutinizer05what happend with the linux community? are you all overstressed?14:57
Centurion_Danhe apologized for being harsh in his criticisms of bad code...14:58
mns`" I've talked to Greg to ask him if he'd mind finishing up 4.19 for me,"14:59
DocScrutinizer05now when you mix this with the above stuff, thats a disgusting cocktail for sure14:59
mns`The new Boss, greg kroah-hartman A systemD apologist14:59
Centurion_Danand has taken time away from kernel dev'ing to get re-edumacated into understanding peoples feelings..15:00
DocScrutinizer05Centurion_Dan: no trolling intended on my side, no such context was available to me. I agree on CoC being an annoyance mostly, and I'm not in the modd to discuss any of this any longer at least today, since I'm sure I would get grumpy from doing so. So I'm out. Sorry again15:02
Centurion_DanI posted a few choice words about my thoughts on it in #debianfork yesterday....15:02
DocScrutinizer05I'm not in #debianfork for pretty much exactly same rationale15:03
Centurion_DanDocScrutinizer05: It's ok, I had my tongue firmly stuck in my cheek when I used the term trolling ;-)15:03
Centurion_Danbut enough said..15:04
DocScrutinizer05on a completely different topic (maybe only linked via idea of "meritocracy"): I wondered if a few new @devuan/* cloaks are due15:13
DocScrutinizer05devuan/developer, devuan/community, devuan/supporter15:14
DocScrutinizer05very effective and low expense for community-building and fostering visibility15:16
DocScrutinizer05I think particularly @devuan/community/<USER> cloaks should and could get handed out very liberally15:18
Centurion_DanDocScrutinizer05: now that's a good idea!!15:34
DocScrutinizer05let me know what you want, I'll manage the FN "bureaucracy"15:38
DocScrutinizer05needed: list of *account* (NOT nick) names, and cloak to assign to each15:39
DocScrutinizer05a possibly simple approach: assign @devuan/community/<USER> to all users in #devuan-community-cloak at 2018-09-2915:43
DocScrutinizer05whatever "authority" or council may have a review prior to that15:44
DocScrutinizer05maybe a topic for your meetings?15:45
DocScrutinizer05make that " all VOICED users in #devuan-community-cloak..."15:47
DocScrutinizer05voicing/unvoicing should be allowed for all devuan team members as in #devuan-dev (+v there)15:49
DocScrutinizer05IOW *!*@devuan/developer/*15:50
DocScrutinizer05[Notice] -ChanServ- Flags +v were set on *!*@devuan/developer/* in #devuan-community-cloak15:52
DocScrutinizer05use it or ignore it, anyway it's available now15:52

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