freenode/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2018-09-19

DocScrutinizer05Centurion_Dan: @all: how to proceed with devuan cloaks?12:12
KatolaZdon't we have anything more interesting to deal with than cloaks?12:15
KatolaZsorry but I just don't see the point12:15
KatolaZI am sure it's just me12:15
DocScrutinizer05sure, if you want to find an excuse to not deal with proper IRC maintenance and community management, you for sure can find "something more important" - however note that this excuse only works for you and your competence in a particular topic. I'm pretty sure *I* can't find such excuse and I wouldn't want to either12:22
KatolaZDocScrutinizer05: please explain a reason to have cloaks12:23
KatolaZI just don't see why we should do "community management"12:23
DocScrutinizer05community building, IRC maintenance12:23
KatolaZso people need a label in order to "build" the community?12:23
DocScrutinizer05please see definition of purpose of a cloak, in Freenode Knowledge Base: "to SHOW AFFILIATION to a project..."12:24
DocScrutinizer05some people like that, yes12:25
DocScrutinizer05and in some channels a cloak even raises your "permissions", e.g. devuan/developer/* may spam the channel with lengthy pastes without getting kicked immediately by the FreeNode antispam bot12:26
DocScrutinizer05for newcomers it's incredibly useful to learn to know whom they are chatting with when they see their peer has a /devuan/whatever cloak12:28
DocScrutinizer05sure they also could scan all git commits for half an hour to see who is a devel and who's not12:29
DocScrutinizer05IF people would provide their IRC nicks in git12:29
KatolaZpeople who come here for help, need help, and are happy if they get help. irrespective of where it comes from12:30
KatolaZI have never looked at anything apart from nicks12:30
KatolaZon IRC12:30
KatolaZor on a ML12:30
DocScrutinizer05that's your individual approach12:30
KatolaZbut again, this might be just me12:30
KatolaZyes, it is12:30
KatolaZI value the contribution of people, notwitstanding their name, or affiliation, or label12:31
KatolaZas simple as that12:31
DocScrutinizer05it's strange you think everybody coming here is just looking for help12:31
KatolaZI am not12:32
DocScrutinizer05there might be users who come here to contribute and want to know their peers12:32
KatolaZso they look at the labels on top of names?12:32
KatolaZanyway, more important stuff to do12:33
DocScrutinizer05axactly to the point where this started: *you* have more important stuff to do, I don't12:39
DocScrutinizer05then, you already *have* your cloak, right?12:40
DocScrutinizer05and it seems you don't care either way if others get a cloak or not, so it's completely fair you care for other stuff and don't waste your time discussing this topic with me12:41
DocScrutinizer05generally cloaks are like badges or name plates, a lot of people love to carry them with pride to show their affiliation and support for a certain group/community and when it's a nameplate giving away your degree of competence in a particular domain, it's highly appreciated by newcomers who otherwise have no idea who you are12:57
DocScrutinizer05also note how cloaks are quite well supported by FreeNode ircd7: /who devuan/*/*13:12
will_havenyou still here talking bollocks? lol13:56
queipjust for lols: #debian quieted someone because he said "Jews" lol16:08
cehteh#debian isnt debian .. i dont like the #debian attitude, but this hostility between devuan and debian isnt nice either16:17
queipand OPs can't be reasoned with about it16:21
queipseems SJW conquered debian16:22
queipthey will conquer devuan in time too16:22
queipsome faggot will ask about some CoC, you will yield, just one thing for now, then another16:23
queipit will probably ruin most FOSS by 202016:23
DonkeyHotei"suck my CoC"16:23
cehtehyeah i dont like this, just use some common sense and good16:25
furrywolffun fact:  it's idiots like you that are why the CoC now exists.16:26
queipfurrywolf: what now?16:26
furrywolfpeople who feel the need to express themselves rudely and with various slurs.  like, for example, "faggots".16:27
KatolaZcehteh: but where is the hostility between debian and devuan?16:27
furrywolfbbl, back to wiring16:28
queipfurrywolf: you know how to use /ignore right?16:28
cehteh*but* when you have the attitude that you are better than they because you feel this way and you despise such CoC and the SJW stuff then you are already not better than they16:28
cehtehKatolaZ: i shouldnt generalize, i meant between some people on either side16:28
queipfurrywolf: I can show you, you type "/ignore foo" where foo is a nickname, and you then do not see them. Or just call them a faggot back and move on back to writting indeed :)16:28
KatolaZI see cehteh16:29
KatolaZjust wanted to note that it's not a general attitude here16:29
cehtehyeah sorry you are right16:29
KatolaZ(no need to be sorry: we don't have a CoC! :P)16:30
queipit's funny that a furry* replied tho :P16:30
cehtehbtw is there a plan to add systemd to devuan? :) .. i mean seriously. imo the goal should be to make it optional for the users preference, i have lots trouble with it, but there are also some good points about it. ideally it would be a nice option for the cases where it works16:33
muepthere is already a good Debian for those use cases16:34
queipwhich initd is best?16:35
queipjust initd is now in devuan? there were some faster (or smth) replacements?16:35
KatolaZno cehteh16:37
KatolaZthere is no such plan16:37
KatolaZDevuan + systemd == Debian16:37
queipa choice sounds like an intereseting option16:38
queipbut if it adds much more work to support "both sides", then yeah maybe a bad idea16:38
KatolaZqueip: you can also ask Debian to support other init systems16:38
KatolaZDebian has some 900+ devs, right?16:39
queipactually it does, to an extent doesnt it?16:39
KatolaZit shouldn't have been too difficult for them to do that16:39
queipdidnt tested it n a long time16:39
KatolaZyou can't install a Debian without systemd16:39
muepafaik debian still supports e.g. sysvinit well for many use cases16:39
KatolaZyou can remove systemd later on16:40
telst4rI thought there's openrc on devuan16:40
KatolaZthere is telst4r16:40
telst4ryes. so there is a choice for init.16:40
muepnot necessarily that well for running gnome, though I have not tried16:41
KatolaZmuep: it's not just gnome16:41
KatolaZnone of the session-related stuff works without systemd in Debian16:41
telst4rlennartd is pretty evasive16:41
muepit was just an example of a more problematic use case16:42
cehtehKatolaZ: from a 'users'/technical perspective it would be nice when devuan and debian can merge eventually.. becoming one again, prolly making devuan obsolete ... but i am not thinking about the social/political impact of such :)16:42
KatolaZcehteh: it would have been better if a fork was not necessary at all16:42
furrymcgeeits good to have a choice16:44
telst4rIsn't that that what free software is about?16:45
cehtehfreedom for me is that the user has the freedom of choice, that includes init systems as well as non-free software. Then when someone replys me "of course you have the choice, just use something else, but we wont support/help you (for potitical reasons), you are on your own" .. the this reply already indicates that the person doesnt respect my freedom. Of course there are plenty of technical reasons for not supporting certain ideas, i can accept that.16:47
muepI do not think it is useful to generalise that it is about choice16:47
cehtehno voluntary project has the resources to cover each and everything, different kernels, all init systems, bundling non free stuff (possibly infrige some licenses/eula) ...16:48
cehtehi am only against the attitude when someone says "no i dont help you, i could, but i know whats better for you"16:49
muepeven if you typically get more choices available to you when you use free software instead of proprietary16:49
cehtehi am absolutely pro free software16:49
cehtehfree as in gnu, not beer16:49
queipcehteh: yeap, especially watch out that such requests are multiplitive16:50
cehtehbut there are reasons sometimes where non free stuff needs to be used, might be politically incorrect, sad, whatever .. still there are such causes16:50
KatolaZcehteh: reality is that we don't have infinite time16:50
queip3 kernels, 4 inits  = 12 groups of problems ;)16:50
KatolaZand we are humans, and as such we all have *preferences*16:50
cehtehKatolaZ: yes, i completely understand when someone argues with technical reasons16:51
KatolaZsomebody said you should only write a software you are willing to use16:51
KatolaZwe could re-arrange it in "you should only support a software you are going to use"16:51
cehtehbut not the "I define freedom for you"-attitude16:51
KatolaZcehteh: that's not freedom16:51
KatolaZneither the opposite is16:52
cehtehsadly that happens in a lot (gnu and other free software) communities16:52
KatolaZ(like in "I define freedom as what you should include in the distro you prepare") :D16:52
cehtehthis sjw syndrome16:52
KatolaZthis is what many people expect the others to do for them16:53
telst4rThe rudeness sometimes bugs me too. And yet I find myself falling into it16:53
cehtehin guix some longer time someone asked about removing 'mame' from the repo, just because one 'could' run non free software in that emulator. of course that request was turned down, but still just alone that line of thought is poisonous for freedom16:54
telst4rofcourse the, let's say, fsf have a saying which distros they choose to endorse. or a fsf-endorsing distro have a saying of refusing to help with non-free software, but the other side is that it's probably gonna backfire.16:55
KatolaZcehteh: that's like banning knives because someone can get stabbed :D16:55
KatolaZtelst4r: anybody is free to endorse what they want16:56
KatolaZand to choose a criterion for that16:56
cehtehi was thinking about posting a bash snippet to the ML with "all rights reserved" notice .. and then request to delete the ML :)16:56
KatolaZcehteh: that would have been invalid16:56
cehtehyep :)16:56
KatolaZsince by accepting to post to the ML you accept your messages to be public16:56
cehtehall rights reserved doesnt mean my code cant be public16:57
cehtehit just says the code is non-free16:57
KatolaZI was referring to the request to remove the ML16:57
KatolaZnot to the code16:58
cehtehwell by such standards that "no we dont even get close to non free stuff"16:58
cehtehits not my problem its theirs16:58
cehtehstill i like the guix project and should work more with it. while hardcore gnuism is for once a political necessity but also a bit unpractical for getting things done17:00
cehtehin fact even with coreboot and other free software, there are so much microcontrollers on a modern mainbard which run on non updateable propietary software, you cant get a real free software computer nowadays17:00
cehtehas in 100% free17:01
cehtehanyway out of topic and i doing something else17:01
KatolaZcehteh: if it were not for entities like FSF we would probably have no free firmware at all, today :)17:02
KatolaZbut yes, OT and distracting (yet interesting, though;) )17:02
telst4rmm. it's on a good cause and I support it. But the current situation is that it's not yet a 100% reality for most people, or businesses. Sadly, but so it seems.17:05
cehtehKatolaZ: i highly respect rms and accept his extremist stance, but he created free software for the freedom of people, this is no green/organic software farm where we pet and care free bits and bytes, the only reason for free software is to ensure freedom for people to have choices and help themself and others.19:01
KatolaZsure cehteh19:02
KatolaZI miss the link with the previous discussion though19:02
KatolaZ(I am on and off anyway today)19:02
DocScrutinizer05FSF is pushing an ideal. They don't honestly care about usability. And that's fine for achieving FSF's goals, they have no other way ro go19:51
nailykhi all. Where can I open an issue for logrotate please?19:51
MinceRthey used to be pushing an ideal19:52
nailyk(debootstraped devuan ascii)19:52
MinceRnow they're pushing systemd19:52
DocScrutinizer05nailyk: you first find out if the bug you found is related to patches devuan introduced, or it's generic to all logrotate packages. Then you open the ticket where the package upstream is19:53
DocScrutinizer05cehteh: Free Software Foundation19:53
cehtehi meant they push systemd, i doubt19:54
DocScrutinizer05MinceR: wait WHAT??19:54
nailykDocScrutinizer05: Filename: pool/DEBIAN/main/l/logrotate/logrotate_3.11.0-0.1_amd64.deb (reported by apt-cache). Should that mean it is a debian upstream package?19:54
cehtehthey 'accept/tolerate it'  because its free software19:54
DocScrutinizer05cehteh: aah, me too19:54
cehtehbut also it wont run on hurd and is not written in guile :D19:54
infobotfrom memory, #devuan packagelist is on our gitlab's group
nailykso no. Gonna open the issue on debian then. Thanks!19:55
DocScrutinizer05nailyk: out of curiosity, hwta's that bug?19:56
nailykjust a sec please.19:56
nailyk+ 'tmpfs on /var/log type tmpfs (rw,relatime)'20:00
MinceRDocScrutinizer05: i thought it was common knowledge here that rms publicly endorsed systemd as "free software" despite the vendor lock-in20:00
MinceRand that other FSF members support it as well20:01
nailykit's not a bloatwareD free chan?20:01
* nailyk run away20:02
DocScrutinizer05MinceR: yes, that's common knowledge20:02
DocScrutinizer05arguably their notion of "free software" is sigject to review and improvement20:03
MinceRtheir notion of "free software" used to be the FSD, which did cover such things implicitly20:04
MinceRbut apparently now it's just a synonym for "open source" (per the OSD), as rms referred to the license when making his statement in support of systemd20:04
KatolaZMinceR: rms did not make any statement in support of systemd20:05
KatolaZhe simply said that systemd is free software20:05
KatolaZ(which is factually true)20:05
MinceRwhich is not factually true and which is in support of systemd20:05
nailyklike android20:05
* nailyk stop trolling20:05
KatolaZno MinceR20:05
KatolaZsystemd is free software20:06
nailykDocScrutinizer05: what do you think about the paste please?20:06
KatolaZis distributed under a free software license20:06
MinceRdoesn't make it free software20:06
nailykKatolaZ: your right, AOSP, sorry20:06
KatolaZnailyk: ?20:06
MinceRit's designed to encroach on the freedoms of its users, hence, the opposite of free software20:06
KatolaZMinceR: you are free to not use it, as a matter of fact20:07
nailykKatolaZ: nothing. Just the same applies to AOSP20:07
MinceRlike i said, argumentation on the basis of copyright license is "open source" (per the OSD), not "free software" (per the FSD)20:07
DocScrutinizer05nailyk: (logrotate bug) strange20:07
KatolaZas you are free to not use hardware that requires non-free firmware20:07
MinceRKatolaZ: yeah, unless i need software that locks me into it20:07
KatolaZMinceR: then work for alternatives20:07
MinceRwell, at least applications are rarely locked into particular hardware yet20:07
DocScrutinizer05nailyk: only thing that comes to mind: ACL20:07
KatolaZMinceR: great :)20:07
nailykDocScrutinizer05: dunno what it is :p You mean selinux?20:08
DocScrutinizer05access list20:08
DocScrutinizer05you don't see ACL permissions via ls20:08
KatolaZnailyk: which release are we talking about?20:08
DocScrutinizer05nailyk: please ls -ld /var/log20:14
DocScrutinizer05your ls is only covering the files _inside_ the parent dir (/var/log/) which allegedly has incorrect perms20:15
nailykoh, it on the 'root' folder!20:15
nailykThanks for the tip!20:15
nailykyes, /var/log have uncorrect perm caused by the fstab20:16
DocScrutinizer05>>error: skipping "/var/log/btmp" because ***parent directory*** has insecure permissio<<20:16
DocScrutinizer05TYL: use l instead ll ;-)20:19
DocScrutinizer05nailyk: so WHY is your fstab causing incorrect permissions on /var/log/? Did you edit it?20:29
KatolaZDocScrutinizer05: sure he did, since it's a debootstrapped image, as nailyk said20:29
TashtariHey guys.  Is there a way to reduce the size of initrd in a devuan installation, or is it just shipped as is?20:29
DocScrutinizer05aah, missed that, Sorry KatolaZ20:29
KatolaZTashtari: you can recreate it20:30
KatolaZDocScrutinizer05: no need to apologise :)20:30
KatolaZTashtari: you can strip stuff by hand20:30
KatolaZor have a look at the script in minimal-live20:30
KatolaZhold on20:30
TashtariWhat tools would I use to strip stuff out by hand?20:31
KatolaZTashtari: hold on20:31
KatolaZretrieving the link :)20:31
KatolaZ <- Tashtari20:31
DocScrutinizer05is it actually about strip(8)?20:32
DocScrutinizer05oops (1)20:32
TashtariKatolaZ: Aha, cool.  Thanks, I'll see what I can do with this.20:32
KatolaZnope DocScrutinizer0520:32
KatolaZthat script removes normally unwanted modules20:33
KatolaZTashtari: have a look and edit as needed20:33
KatolaZTashtari: that script should reduce the initrd shipped with ascii by about 60%20:33
KatolaZmaybe more20:33
KatolaZTashtari: you might also remove more stuff, maybe, depending on your config20:34
TashtariIf I remove one of those filesystem drivers, will I lose the ability to mount filesystems of that type, or just to -boot- from filesystems of that type?20:34
KatolaZthe stuff in initrd is useful only during early boot20:35
KatolaZbasically, until you mount /20:35
TashtariOk, that's not a problem then...20:35
KatolaZbut the normal way this stuff is put together is by throwing in everything and the kitchen sink20:36
TashtariDoes initrd ever get regenerated automatically, like when you install certain packages?20:36
KatolaZwhen you install a kernel20:36
KatolaZor update it20:36
KatolaZor grub20:36
TashtariBut there's not, say, some package that includes support for another filesystem that would then kick off some scripts to add that filesystem's driver into initrd?20:37
KatolaZTashtari: how can I know? :)20:37
KatolaZin principle, a dkms package might want to rebuild the initrd20:37
KatolaZbut I don't know if any specific package does that20:37
TashtariWell, I suppose I should ask if it's -normal- for that to happen, not to say "does any package ever do that" :)20:38
KatolaZwell, the worse that can happen is that you boot with an initrd that should work in 99.999% of the cases :D20:38
KatolaZTashtari: it's not normal, but in principle the post-inst of any package could do that (eve if that would not be reasonable)20:39
TashtariAll right.  Thanks for your help, I think I should be able to run with this.20:39
KatolaZI guess only -dkms packages would really want to do that20:39
DocScrutinizer05the root question is how to deal with that. Is there a best practice to pin the initrd package or whatever?20:39
DocScrutinizer05or edit some initrd build script which usually doesn't get updated when customized, or somesuch?20:40
KatolaZDocScrutinizer05: yep, nuke update-initramfs :P20:40
TashtariYeah, that's going to be interesting... the reason I'm trying to pare down initrd is because I want to fit it all into my BIOS chip and coreboot directly into the kernel.20:41
DocScrutinizer05or a hook in apt that runs your cleaning script again after a new initrd got triggered to get built?20:41
KatolaZDocScrutinizer05: kidding20:41
TashtariBut... first make it work, then make it sustainable, I suppose.20:41
KatolaZhave a look at /etc/initramfs-tools/initramfs.conf20:42
DocScrutinizer05I found the other way around works better for me personally ;-)20:42
nailykindeed :p 'tmpfs                                           /var/log        tmpfs   defaults                                        0       0'20:42
DocScrutinizer05since usually I'm so happy when it works, that sustainability gets postponed until I have to redo all the stuff next time20:43
DocScrutinizer05so meanwhile I often try to start with a script that does the stuff for me20:44
DocScrutinizer05so when it works I already got a script for next time20:45
fsmithredTashtari, yes the initrd gets rebuilt when you install packages for other filesystems. I just tested it by installing btrfs-tools. It also gets rebuilt when you install cryptsetup or mdadm, and maybe lvm2, too.21:05
Tashtarifsmithred: Ah, good to know.  Thanks.21:07
Tashtaridevuan is not one of the linux distros that incorporates ZFS, is it?21:07
fsmithredno, not by default21:08
fsmithredzfs is available in the repo21:08
KatolaZ[#devuan]    mb b21:23
KatolaZ[#devuan]    mb b21:23
KatolaZ  uff next time21:23
KatolaZ20:46 -!- aitor [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]21:23
KatolaZ20:46 < DocScrutinizer05> so meanwhile I often try to start with a script that does the stuff for me21:23
KatolaZ20:46 < DocScrutinizer05> so when it works I already got a script for next time21:23
KatolaZ20:48 -!- spsurya1 [~spsurya@] has joined #devuan21:23
KatolaZ20:48 -!- spsurya1 [~spsurya@] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))]21:24
KatolaZ20:51 -!- jack_rabbit [] has joined #devuan21:24
KatolaZ20:52 -!- _0bitcount [~Big_Byte@] has joined #devuan21:24
KatolaZ21:02 -!- hplar [] has joined #devuan21:24
KatolaZ21:07 < fsmithred> Tashtari, yes the initrd gets rebuilt when you install packages for other filesystems. I just tested it by21:24
KatolaZ                   installing btrfs-tools. It also gets rebuilt when you install cryptsetup or mdadm, and maybe lvm2, too.21:24
KatolaZ21:08 < Tashtari> fsmithred: Ah, good to know.  Thanks.21:24
KatolaZ21:09 < Tashtari> devuan is not one of the linux distros that incorporates ZFS, is it?21:24
KatolaZ21:09 < fsmithred> no, not by default21:24
KatolaZ21:10 < fsmithred> zfs is available in the repo21:24
KatolaZ21:16 -!- AntoFox [~Thunderbi@] has joined #devuan21:24
KatolaZ21:17 -!- Blacker4716 [~Blacker47@] has joined #devuan21:24
KatolaZ21:17 -!- Blacker4716 [~Blacker47@] has quit [Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.))]21:24
KatolaZ21:24 -!- wasp is now known as Wasp21:24
KatolaZ21:25 < KatolaZ> ,4,5,6,7,9,10,11,15]21:24
KatolaZ21:25 < KatolaZ> [#devuan]    mb b21:24
KatolaZ21:25 < KatolaZ> ,4,5,6,7,9,10,11,15]21:24
KatolaZ21:25 < KatolaZ> [#devuan]    mb b21:24
KatolaZ [21:25] [KatolaZ(+RZi)] [2:#devuan(+cntz)] [Act: 3,4,5,6,7,9,10,11,15]21:24
KatolaZkid on the keyboard :\21:24
fsmithredlol, was wondering what all that was21:26
MinceRkid might make a fine cat eventually21:33
Tashtari..Hmm.  Can I compress an initrd with xz and have it just work or does it have to be gzip?21:35
DocScrutinizer05KatolaZ: did you get a friendly warning of sigyn?21:42
DocScrutinizer05oops even21:43
KatolaZDocScrutinizer05: dunno21:45
MinceRand an unfriendly one? :>21:45
DocScrutinizer05she's on your /ignore or why?21:45
KatolaZwho is sigyn?21:46
KatolaZhold on21:46
DocScrutinizer05/whois Sigyn21:46
KatolaZmaybe the status window21:46
DonkeyHoteiauto-kline bot21:46
KatolaZoh ok21:46
KatolaZYour actions in #devuan tripped automated anti-spam measures (flood.....21:46
KatolaZDocScrutinizer05: ^^^ is this one?21:46
DocScrutinizer05so it was a friendly last warning, taking into account your time in chanel?21:47
DocScrutinizer05(sorry for pestering you with this, just want to check if everything works as it should)21:48
DocScrutinizer05I guess your cloak could have helped as well#21:49
KatolaZDocScrutinizer05: it was not so friendly, indee21:50
DocScrutinizer05please quote21:50
KatolaZstop now, or automated action will still be taken.21:50
DocScrutinizer05yeah, that's as friendly as sigyn gets :-)21:50
DocScrutinizer05if sigyn ever hits on a flase positive, please holler immediately, there's a 30 minute time window to revert klines21:51
DocScrutinizer05if we miss that window, it's the usual "please user send an email to" or whatever, taking a few days to proceed21:52
banshido we have network-manager in the latest devuan?21:52
KatolaZbanshi: apt-cache search -n network-manager21:52
banshiKatolaZ, I would do that if I had installed devuan21:53
KatolaZbanshi:  http://pkginfo.devuan.org21:53
banshinetwork-manager-gnome is there21:54
banshiso yes21:54
banshithere is21:55
infobotsomebody said #devuan packagelist was on our gitlab's group
DocScrutinizer05!pkg is also http://pkginfo.devuan.org21:55
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay21:55
infobotit has been said that #devuan packagelist is on our gitlab's group
DocScrutinizer05I'll "flood the channel" with bot admin to show what I did wrong21:58
DocScrutinizer05!literal pkg21:59
infobot"#devuan pkg" is "<reply>see #devuan packagelist"21:59
DocScrutinizer05!literal _default pkg21:59
DocScrutinizer05!_default pkg21:59
DocScrutinizer05!#devuan packagelist is also http://pkginfo.devuan.org22:00
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer0522:00
infobot#devuan packagelist is probably on our gitlab's group, or http://pkginfo.devuan.org22:00
DocScrutinizer05  - and sorry for the noise22:02

Generated by 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!