freenode/#devuan/ Monday, 2018-11-26

MinceRiirc xchat uses colored dots (iirc yellow for voice) and kvirc uses letter icons (v for voice)00:00
furrywolfyes, because let's totally ignore the + that's been standard forever...00:01
XenguyBut that's progress00:02
Xenguyer, for ya00:03
furrywolfjust because something is change doesn't necessary mean it's better.  :)00:03
Xenguye.g. systemd ! : )00:04
xrogaanyou can untick "use icon instead of text" in the user list preference thing.00:05
filipdevuan_omg iv read some interviews about this lennart poettering and uhh vista macos amazing linux bad and then google knows it all like wtf he promotes google so he can't be good he's evil guy01:39
ChuangTzu1Hi all, finally able to get back on :)01:54
golinuxThe long lost ChuangTzu1 didn't stay for long . . .02:37
XenguyHe was probably dreaming he was a butterfly02:42
Xenguyfilipdevuan_: It's like a turing test:  how can we tell the difference between a really smart guy who's coding the future with vision, and some dummy who happens to have a great deal of confidence?02:44
XenguyWhatever the case, he is fundamentally changing gnu/linux, inextricably02:52
XenguySome of us will try to go ahead with #freeinit02:55
filipdevuan_well, but having windows vista or macos in mind as an example for changing gnu/linux is not a good idea in my opinion, especially that i think 'good windows' has ended on windows xp. and he also mentions google everywhere and this word and company is like a virus or parasite to me, so when somebody tells me google it to me its like she shows no respect to me and wants to poison me03:01
filipdevuan_sorry that i said me too many times im not english native03:01
filipdevuan_but well does he really matter...03:02
pupuser9837261so, is it true that microsoft owns the corp that flung systemd upon our community?06:57
jonadabHeh.  That would be fitting, I suppose.  But no.06:58
pupuser9837261um, don't they own redhat now?06:58
pupuser9837261when i uname -a, does "smp preempt" mean i'm only using one processor?07:00
gnarfacepupuser9837261: IBM bought RedHat.  the answer to the second question is "no"07:01
gnarfacei'm pretty sure those are two separate unrelated flags07:02
jonadabNot sure how unrelated they are, but they're separate and have independent meaning, yeah.07:02
gnarfacethe first one is symmetric multi processing and i think the second one is something about preempt-able interrupts07:03
jonadabSounds right.07:03
pupuser9837261what distro is going to be next to join the WithoutSystemd distro list?07:07
pupuser9837261seems like a short list07:07
Leanderfor questions not directly related to using devuan, you can join on #debianfork07:19
golinuxThank you Leander.07:33
jsl123Hi All!14:17
jsl123Anyone able to help me out with a "ascii lite live" in a VM (qemu)? Can't login as root (no password?) Can't "sudo" as user devuan as she is not sudoers... How are we supposed to become root? :-)14:19
jsl123*is not *in* sudoers14:19
debdogtry toor as root password14:21
jsl123OK. That worked! Thank's debdog :-)14:22
debdognp hf14:22
jsl123While we are at it: ;-) Need to re-factor the live image since I need to get the console to serial. (Just a few changes to inittab, isolinux and/or grub). Is there a wiki or help for remastering?14:28
jsl123Or are there even ready "serial only" images?14:29
KatolaZjsl123: root/toor14:30
KatolaZshould be in the README14:30
KatolaZthis is how live images are created14:32
KatolaZyou have a minimal howto there14:32
KatolaZand you can have a look at the two "blends" currently available14:32
KatolaZdevuan-live is the desktop version14:33
KatolaZdevuan-minimal-live is the minimal live14:33
jsl123@KatolaZ: The second one, the README in the SDK did the trick! Thanks14:49
jsl123@KatolaZ: Found you all over the sources and in the docs... ;-) I now managed to get a complete system with serial console redirection from the BIOS, teh bootloader to the login. (Complete w/o VGA) Runs fine in qemu on a (virtual) "pentium2" CPU. But when I start it on my h/w, it seems to be stuck very early. (Even in isolinux?) Do you know about the CPU specifications which are needed by this kernel?15:45
KatolaZjsl123: how much ram do you have?15:46
jsl123Trying to run on a Vortex86DX15:46
KatolaZthe initramfs might require a lot of ram15:46
KatolaZare you sure it is a 686 CPU?15:47
KatolaZ(not a 586 one?)15:47
KatolaZ(just wondering, sorry if the question is silly)15:47
jsl123It's a Pentium. Only a few things missing. Like TSC15:47
KatolaZjsl123: then it's 586...15:47
jsl123But h/w FPU15:47
KatolaZbad news, I am afraid :\15:47
jsl123Hmmm. My old "2.6.36" kernel was running fine on this! ;-)15:48
KatolaZjsl123: it's not a matter of kernel15:49
KatolaZit's a matter of ABI15:49
KatolaZI guess you were using a much older distro on that15:49
KatolaZnot just the kernel15:49
jsl123No distro. Hand-grown embedded stuff. Which ABI  you mean (essantially) that (g)libc uses h/w facilities from the CPU?15:50
KatolaZthe problem is that Debian-i386 (and thus Devuan) is compiled for i68615:50
jsl123Ah. Yes. That makes complete sense!15:50
KatolaZwe thought about having a i586 minimal system15:51
KatolaZbut the issue is that you need to rebuild most of the repo15:51
KatolaZwe don't have that much man-power for that at the moment jsl12315:51
KatolaZsorry! :\15:51
jsl123I remember about them (i586/i486 distros) a few years ago...15:51
KatolaZI guess the easiest would be LFS15:51
KatolaZjust cross-build15:51
KatolaZI have done it several times15:52
KatolaZor use a distro that still supports i58615:52
jsl123OK. But thank you for your time and patience. And for your work on devuan! I might come back later to your distro with other h/w...15:52
KatolaZhope you do, if you need so ;)15:53
jsl123Perhaps i'll try LFS, though. Bye! Have a nice day15:53
KatolaZ(and BTW, the distro is not mine :P)15:53
jsl123Yes, but you seem to spend a lot of effort into it15:54
linfahello everyone. Is there a way to install devuan as an LXC container?18:34
linfaI found this repo online, but since the last commit is of over 2 years ago I am not sure about it:
jonadabI don't know that much about LXC containers, but it's not clear to me whether the word "as" in your question means "inside of" or "hosting".18:49
jonadabWhich are quite different questions.18:50
linfahi jonadab , well, both. Is a devuan machine, and I'd like to make a devuan lxc =) I tried using that script, but I have an error:
golinuxlinfa: There was someone who set that up a while ago.  I'll see if I can find it.19:10
jonadabThis seems relevant:  E: Release signed by unknown key (key id 94532124541922FB)19:11
linfathanks golinux19:11
jonadabI am guessing you haven't installed/authorized/whatever the public key corresponding to the person who published that root filesystem image.19:11
jonadabAgain, I don't know that much about LXC, but a root filesystem image seems pretty important, so if you're not getting that because of a signature check, that could easily derail your whole install.19:12
epitamizorhow do i update kernel to newer from ascii repo?19:14
golinuxtry ascii backports19:15
nemooooh that reminds me. gotta see if the debian backports with the fix for my laptop is finally out19:15
golinuxIf debian has it devuan will have it19:15
golinuxNever use debian repos directly19:16
golinuxtry pkginfo.devuan.org19:16
nemogolinux: yeah. I know. I established here that you guys don't modify kernel, then like six months ago begged someone on debian kernel team to enable the requisite flag19:17
nemoit's just been taking a loooooong time to filter down to backports ☺19:17
linfathanks jonadab, there should be a way to ignore missing signatures, I'll look for it19:17
KatolaZepitamizor: ascii-backports has 4.17 and 4.1819:18
nemothe bug report was closed with fixed as of 4.18.10-119:20
epitamizoroh ok I was just running apt-get upgrade, but that didn't install kernel i see19:20
epitamizormanual install?19:20
nemogonna guess that means19:21
nemo    linux-image-4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd6419:21
nemodoes not have the fix yet ☹19:21
nemobug was closed 2 months ago, guess I just have to keep waiting19:21
jonadabOr compile your own kernel ;-)19:23
epitamizorthats what i usually do but was thinking it could be via the package manager19:23
golinuxlinfa: I don't have time to do research right now.  Check the DNG mail list and the dev1galaxy forum.Perhaps you could install Debian and upgrade to devuan.19:23
nemojonadab: I did in fact try that19:23
KatolaZnemo: do not look at the package name...19:24
jonadabIt has been quite some time since I compiled my own kernel.19:24
nemojonadab: but... I was hoping to stick to the debian package and it rapidly became an ugly mess19:24
jonadabPretty sure it was before I returned to Debian (which happened when sarge was released).19:24
jonadabSo I probably have never compiled a kernel for an apt-based system.19:24
nemoKatolaZ: linux-image-4.18.0-2-amd64  is the one the bug report says has the fix19:25
nemo.0-2 seems newer than .0-019:25
KatolaZdo not look at the version number you have there19:25
KatolaZlook inside the package19:25
KatolaZapt-cache show linux-image-whatever19:26
nemoKatolaZ: oh. well. I don't want to install the broken one since it's a pain to restore the fragile env I have right now19:26
KatolaZthat will tell you which kernel versio it is (under "Version: ")19:26
nemoKatolaZ: which is based off of hackz and a debian kernel author provided image19:26
KatolaZyou don't need to install it19:26
KatolaZread above19:26
nemothought apt-cache required that19:26
epitamizorso I'm planning on installing devuan, one with runit init and one with openrc init to test usuability19:26
KatolaZapt-cache show linux-image-whatever19:27
nemook. so Version: 4.18.6-1~bpo9+119:27
nemoso not fixed19:27
epitamizori'm thinking it should be possible to install openrc and runit on same system, just tell which init system to boot at grub?19:28
epitamizoris that a good idea19:28
KatolaZnemo: it will get into backports sooner or later19:35
nemosure sure19:35
nemojust impatient19:35
nemosince I'm stuck on this semi-broken kernel19:35
KatolaZDe??aners are never impatient19:35
nemoKatolaZ: symlinked gcc6 to gcc7 just to get it to install19:35
KatolaZnemo: you can use beowulf19:35
KatolaZbe careful: session management does not work for now19:36
KatolaZbut you could help with testing19:36
nemobut I guess can't hurt to try19:37
KatolaZit might hurt19:37
KatolaZso you are warned19:37
ServiceRobotso I heard devuan and debian collaborated on a new sysvinit release?19:38
KatolaZServiceRobot: yup19:38
ServiceRobotah good. I read that an init independent debian was in the works, or at least talk between devs?19:38
ServiceRobotor SOMETHING19:38
KatolaZdunno about that19:40
KatolaZand I don't think there is a plan for that19:40
ServiceRobotI'd have to find the comment about it19:40
golinuxThe work is being described as "init-diversity"19:41
ServiceRobotwell that's better than nothing I guess19:41
ServiceRobotpeople keep dissing devuan as being exactly the same as debian but with sysvinit installed by default, but if it become more init agnostic, that statement would become very untrue19:42
ServiceRobotbeen following the mailing list for a while and seen some very interesting discussion19:42
KatolaZServiceRobot: the true thing is that Devuan will never have systemd19:43
KatolaZand Devuan already allows to choose openrc at install time in ascii19:43
nemoKatolaZ: would rather like to avoid breaking my SO's laptop further so I guess I'll pass on beowulf for now19:43
KatolaZ(in expert install only for the moment)19:43
ServiceRobotI tried beowulf out. it boots and works fine, and has the version of software I want for hosting servers19:43
nemoKatolaZ: might maybe try it on the work laptop19:43
KatolaZso in this sense it's a bit more init-agnostic than Debian19:43
KatolaZServiceRobot: since you are using openrc (IIRC) please help testing the latest unstable installer19:44
ServiceRobotyes, but all it does is install sysvinit installed of systemd, blacklists systemd, as well as other packages that rely on systemd?19:44
ServiceRobotI'm actually using runit19:44
KatolaZServiceRobot: who does that ?19:44
ServiceRobotthat's what I'm asking if that's how it works19:45
KatolaZit's not just a matter of blacklisting19:45
KatolaZDevuan also provides alternative versions of packages that require systemd in Debian19:45
KatolaZthey are forked and rebuilt19:45
KatolaZwithout systemd support19:45
ServiceRobotcould we get opentmpfiles then, as well as elogind? I'd love to help get those in19:45
KatolaZor used with elogind, if session management is what they need systemd for19:45
KatolaZor consolekit, if that is enough19:46
ServiceRobotopentmpfiles is still not available I think though19:46
ServiceRobotconsolekit doesnt' work well for me19:46
ServiceRobotI thought development stopped on it?19:46
KatolaZwe have consolekit2 in unstable19:46
KatolaZthanks to Centurion_Dan19:46
ServiceRobotah, not in beowulf?19:47
KatolaZwill get to beowulf as well19:47
ServiceRobotbeowulf takes in packages from unstable after 10 days like buster no?19:47
KatolaZmore or less19:47
KatolaZafter a while19:47
ServiceRobotprobably would go for beowulf then19:47
KatolaZsometimes immediately, if we know they will not cause breakage19:47
ServiceRobotthat extra 10 days adds a bit more stablity I would assume19:47
KatolaZServiceRobot: it depends19:48
KatolaZit depends on how many people are using unstable19:48
KatolaZand reporting bugs19:48
KatolaZServiceRobot: welcome to help19:48
KatolaZplease join devuan-dev (the ML)19:48
KatolaZif you are not there yet19:49
ServiceRobotI was on there for a bit. seems to be more activity here19:49
KatolaZand/or if you want to help with getting runit as another install option for Devuan19:49
KatolaZServiceRobot: activity is in bursts19:49
KatolaZthere is much activity right now19:49
epitamizori need to get my system set up first19:49
ServiceRobotwell, I've been working on a runit implementation that essentially uses Artix Linux's way of doing things. it's a bit strange19:50
ServiceRobotthen there's aws devuan, who hosts a modified void runit for devuan specifically. I asked the dev directly if he'd be willing to pitch in19:50
ServiceRobotthe thing is there are MANY ways to go about this19:51
KatolaZServiceRobot: if you want to see it in Devuan, just work on it19:51
KatolaZpackage it19:51
KatolaZwe'll build it19:51
KatolaZask for testers19:51
ServiceRobotit's in testing phase at the moment19:51
KatolaZthere are several people in DNG interested in runit19:51
ServiceRobothow important is backwards compatibility in this case? file locations don't make sense with debian's runit implementation19:51
ServiceRobotI spoke on the DNG19:52
ServiceRobotI even spoke with the debian maintainer of runit, who sort of fixed the problems I reported, but not exactly how I'd like19:52
KatolaZServiceRobot: backward compatibility is essential on upgrades19:52
KatolaZbut is less of a problem in new installations19:52
ServiceRobothmmm, well here's the thing about that and runit. services are stored in /etc/sv. that's fine. running services are stored in /etc/service. not fine19:53
ServiceRobotbecause /etc could become read-only19:53
KatolaZwhen should /etc become ro?19:53
ServiceRobotmy solution uses /run/runit/service, but as you said, that would break backwards compatiblity19:54
ServiceRobotalso, /etc/service is symlinked to /etc/runit/runsvdir/default, which creates another problem19:54
ServiceRobotessentially, it's a bit of a mess19:54
KatolaZServiceRobot: I have never run runit19:54
KatolaZplease let's discuss this with other devs19:54
ServiceRobotin devuan-dev?19:55
ServiceRobotI can explain how it works there if you want, although I don't know everything about it19:55
KatolaZbut the best way would be to have packages to test19:55
ServiceRobotnever actually created a debian package myself. I assume it's not hard19:55
mchasardhow to install locales please ?21:47
mchasardi'm under crowz derivative devuan21:47
Centurion_DanServiceRobot: I'm keen to help with packaging and I think we can deal with the transition from debians runit as a part of the pre & postinstall process.23:15
Centurion_Dancome over to #devuan-dev to discuss further, and/or join the devuan-dev mailinglist and start a thread there tagged with [runit-init]23:17

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