freenode/#devuan/ Thursday, 2018-12-06

Centurion_Danesr has given us much, and now maybe a little of our work, inspired by his, will give him a return on his investment ;-)01:41
golinuxFull-circle01:43
XenguyMay it be unbroken02:40
* esr blushes05:56
esrSo, I finall fixed my experimental Devuan installation when a hacjing buddt of mune noticed that it needed the proprietary Radeon blobs to crank a 2K display.05:57
esrNow I can consider using it for production.05:58
golinuxesr: That's great news!06:16
golinuxWelcome aboard06:17
esrgolinux: I'm runmning Devuan on a fanless Chinese compute brick caklled a Jetway.  I have anothe Jetway running Uvbuntu that's my mailserver/bastion host - the medium turm plan is to configure the Devuan brick for that job, swaopi ut in, and then scrunb the old mailserver and Devuanize it.06:19
esrExcuse my typos.06:19
furrywolfyou don't sound like the esr I know...06:19
esrMy main machine, the Great Beast, probably won't migrate until the next hardware upgrade.06:20
esrfurrywolf: I'm, not awqare that I know anyone named furrywolf, so that sort of make s sense.06:21
furrywolflol, I played with the fetchmail logo about two decades ago.  don't think we've talked otherwise.  glad to see you're a devuan user.  :)06:23
esrfurrywolf: Well, Devuan-curious anway.  It's got rough edges.06:24
golinuxLinux always has rough edges.06:26
golinuxEspecially if you want to do it your way06:26
golinuxThere is no one-size-fits-all06:27
furrywolfof course there is.  it's called systemd.  just ask them.  :P06:28
furrywolfor anything freedesktop06:28
esrNo, but Mint and Ubunti (whatever their other failings) do a better job of covering a briod range of use cases.  You guys may decide that's not important, but it's true.06:29
golinuxIt's not us.06:30
esr?06:30
golinuxI played with ubuntu a decade ago and it was always broken.06:30
furrywolfbbl, wolfy bedtime06:31
golinuxThat drove me to debian squeeze which was quite stable.  Then wheezy.  Then the wheels fell off.06:31
esrIt has improved freeatly since.  I run it on the Beast and my latop.  Looking to get away from it now because of systemd, but I also know what I'll be giving up when I do that.06:31
golinuxYou'll be gaining freedom not losing06:32
golinuxDevuan has been solid as a rock on my desktop.06:33
golinuxMy daily driver is still jessie.06:33
golinuxBut we all have our use cases06:34
Digitrawr.  cant comment on peertube videos for some reason.  https://peertube3.cpy.re/videos/watch/c378f2e9-8c50-44a4-98ce-ed12ccafd44b  wanted to tell them "or #devuan as its #debian #withoutsystemd and not splitter" or some such06:34
Digitso instead i just moaned that in here.  n_n maybe someone else will mention it.06:35
esrExample:  On installation, Ubuntu asks if you want to load proprietary firmware for things like the Radeon chip in my Jetway brick.  Being able to to say yes to that would have saved me a bunch of troubleshooting time.  Sure, I'd like for proprietary blobs to go away, but doctrinal purity on Devuan's part does nothing to advance that; the manufacturers don't give a crap about a market sliver as small as us.06:38
esrTo beat proprietary crap you have to outcompete it, not just hold your nose and virtue-signal.06:38
golinuxesr: Those blobs are available on the -live disks and it's really pissed some people off.06:42
* golinux goes to find the link06:42
golinuxhttps://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=12682#p1268206:44
esrgolinux: Well, you can tell them ESR is unimpressed with their pissedness.  If you want to obsolesce proprietary software, don't preteend it isn't handling important jobs. *Do better.*  And if yoy can't so better, stop pretending that virtue-signalling about your purity is going to help.06:45
esrs/so better/do better/06:46
golinuxI'm not the one to debate that with you.  I don't have need for proprietary stuff but others do.  The explanation of how non-free is available in Devuan is pretty clear.in that link is pretty clear.06:51
golinuxWe have talked about doing a devuan-libre at some point for those who want it.06:52
golinuxSorry for the muddled sentence.06:52
golinuxYour input of how we can make devuan better is welcome.  You have a unique perspective that we can learn from.06:54
esrgolinux: Thanks.06:54
golinuxFeel free to join the forum and voice your opinion there.06:55
esrThe things I've run into so far are mostly weirdnesses in the installer where a way forward isn't readily discoverable.06:55
esrHit one of those pretty hard trying to install on an Intel NUC.  That failed; I had to do Mint 19 instead.06:56
esrWhich forum?06:56
golinuxThose option are available with an expert install (or so I've heard - I've been doing -live installs with the refractainstaller for years).06:57
golinuxdev1galaxy.org06:57
golinuxThis is the thread with a non-free debate: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=12682#p1268206:58
golinuxThere are others in there too. It's a recurring theme06:59
esrI just registered.07:00
esrgolinux: So you don't recommend the "classic" image?07:01
golinuxOh I'm just lazy07:01
golinuxRefractainstaller takes 10 minutes07:01
golinuxJust rsyncs the running system07:02
esrLazy is OK.  I like installers that allow laziness.07:02
golinuxNon-free is also discussed in the release notes.07:02
golinuxhttps://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt07:03
golinux### Non-free firmware is about half way down the page.07:03
golinuxI hadn't used the d-1 in many years till I installed the beowuld test iso a few days ago.07:04
golinuxThat would be d-i07:04
esrgolinux: See, that's all very well but it doesn't apply to the classic installer the download site encourages people to use.07:04
esrgolinux: Furtermote I'd say having multiple install images (as oppose to one with good customization options) is part of the problem, not part of the solution.07:05
golinuxActually the d-i is 3rd on the list.07:06
golinuxdesktop-live/                                      06-Jun-2018 23:47       -07:06
golinuxembedded/                                          06-Jun-2018 11:28       -07:06
golinuxinstaller-iso/                                     06-Jun-2018 18:59       -07:06
golinuxminimal-live/                                      06-Jun-2018 15:33       -07:06
golinuxvirtual/07:06
esrYeah, I'kll go grie about this on the forum.  That's *way* too many distinct images.07:07
golinuxOur user-base is diverse.07:07
esrYes?  So what?07:08
golinuxThose options provide C-H-O-I-C-E07:08
esrIf you're not smart enough to write a oolymorphic single installer what are you doing in this game?07:08
esr*polymorphic07:08
golinuxMaybe you'd like to take on that task?07:09
esrNot intil I'm more sure I'm going to fully commit my house systems.07:09
golinuxWe could use more hands on deck.07:09
esrI get it.07:10
golinuxFair enough.07:10
golinuxJust for giggles try the desktop-live installer07:10
esrMaybe when I put the third Jtway back together, it's in poeces on my bench right now.07:12
golinuxI'm going to head to bed . . . or at least try to.  ttyl07:23
KatolaZesr: what's the matter?08:08
KatolaZthere are not that many installers indeed08:14
KatolaZsince virtual, minimal-live, embedded, and desktop-live come from the same tool (devuan-sdk)08:14
KatolaZso there are basically two main flavours08:14
KatolaZthe classical installer (under installer-iso)08:14
KatolaZand different kinds of live or ready-to-boot images08:15
devoid_hello esr, how are you doing today?08:19
devoid_i dont want to hear it my fellow heterosexual friend08:23
devoid_you are a motherfucking nice heterosexual man for knowing how to join a channel08:23
KatolaZdevoid_: o_O08:25
esrKatolaZ: It doesn't matter how many installers *you* think there are in some genetic sense.  It matters how many you present as possibilities to a user. More = moe confusion and uncertainty, and more ways for them to have inconsstent behavior.  When you find yourself saying "basically two main flavors" you are already in the land of too many.12:09
* Humpelstilzchen would like to replace installers with init daemons in the above sentence..12:14
HurgotronHumpelstilzchen: AFAICT, Devuan doesn't have too much confusing choice when it comes to init deamons. :)12:16
esrHurgotron: A;so, the case isn't parallel because it's not really that difficult to write a polymorphic installer that covers all use cases by asking you to select an installation type. The paralle, move with init daemons would be a lot more difficult and dubious.12:18
Hurgotronesr: Understood. But if you have a polymorphic installer that covers all use cases, should it get most packages ofer the net, or be self-contained? One main difference of the various installers seems to be their size.12:21
HumpelstilzchenHurgotron: to be honest, I have not tried alternatives in a long time, but the last time I tried e.g. runit and the others I was confused by the amount of choices12:23
HurgotronHumpelstilzchen: runit doesn't replace initd, just the startup scripts, AFAIK.12:24
HumpelstilzchenHurgotron: at least in the past there were two versions, one integrated with sysv, one did replace /sbin/init12:26
arminhttp://smarden.org/runit/runit-init.8.html12:32
arminit does replace /sbin/init12:32
HurgotronIndeed, I just checked. Weird. sysv init is supposed to be minimal, and why replace? NIH?12:33
arminwell runit is designed to be minimal, too12:33
arminit just works a bit differently, and there's no problem with that i think12:33
esrHurgotron: I don't see that size is an issue these days.  Large thumb drives are cheap.12:36
* esr is still rather a fan of upstart12:37
armini love the simplicity of runit to be honest12:37
djphspeaking of "large" drives -- I found a 128MB (!!!) microsd in an adapter yesterday when going through a box of backups from college that I'm finally getting rid of12:37
esraesin_: I think that is a reasonable position.12:37
esrarmin: ^12:38
HurgotronI'm mostly indifferent to init systems as long as they don't get in my way. Ubuntu was ok.12:39
djphupstart was kind of nice -- but jarring when it first came out, beacuse I was still really bad12:39
arminesr: it's super understandable and hence very hacker friendly. the ps output is sane, the shell scripts you write to actually start your daemon is often just a 5 liner or so, and stopping the service is done by some very trivial runit programs that it comes with. also it works 100% just like DJBs good old daemon tools and you can just use runit in addition to your current init system (e.g. simply not start it12:40
arminby the kernel but rather via an upstart job or init script or whatever you choose)12:40
esrdjph: I mut have only seen later versions.  I liked the concept of no runlevels, instead traversing a dependency tree.12:40
armini have to admit being quite a fan of runit :D12:40
djphI mean, I think I had played with fedora (core) 2/3 for a bit, but kept coming across "do xyz on ubuntu" ... so I switched to ubuntu uhh... whatever was back then12:41
arminthe beauty of devuan is that you get the simplicity of ubuntu without the mind squashing of systemd12:41
armin:)12:41
arminin the beginning i had concerns if devuan would ever become a mature and usable desktop operating system. my concerns couldn't have been any more wrong. it totally did.12:42
armin<3 devuan12:42
arminyesterday me and a friend watched a talk by lennart poettering on youtube in 1.25x speed. (systemd in 2018)12:43
arminthe recursion that guy mentally does (constantly) is just infinite12:43
arminyou can even track his yak shaving much better at 1.25x speed12:44
esrarmin: Installation is still pretty user-hostile, though.  I plan on uttering an extended rant about how and wiy on either Galaxy or my blog.12:44
arminesr: why do you think so? e.g. what exactly is user-hostile for you?12:44
arminesr: off-topic: finding an ibm spacesaver tenkeyless keyboard in ISO is almost impossible... :/12:45
esrarmin: Too many installation images, for a start - they have inconstent behaviors.  There should be only one.12:46
arminesr: oh, very good point. there's some very minimalistic one though...12:46
esrWith option selects.12:46
r3bootGhe, and here I was, thinking that devuan was for and by UNIX admins, who know how to figure out an init system ;+ (j/k)12:46
arminesr: i hate that on the starting page you approach with a graphical webbrowser just see jessie and ascii on the page and only see that ascii is the 2.0.0 version when clicking on them.12:47
KatolaZesr: as a matter of fact, all the install images get used :)12:47
esrI also gut bt by the purity fetish.  Some of my hardware needs Radeon firmware blobs and the Cllassic installer doesn't offer to install those - you have to dig into the Release Notes to learn that. Bzzt!  Crash landing!12:48
r3boot(or that people know that both ubuntu and devuan are derivatives of debian ;P)12:48
KatolaZesr: the classical installer has all the non-free firmware available12:48
KatolaZif anything is missing just shout12:48
arminnon-free is meh, you're approaching breakage land there12:48
KatolaZand the live images have non-free firmware available as well12:49
esrKatolaZ: I did see it offer when I went through the standard install.12:49
KatolaZyep12:49
esrdid *not*12:49
esrSorry.12:49
KatolaZuh12:49
KatolaZ?12:49
esrMy typo.12:49
KatolaZis the firmware in Debian/Devuan repos?12:49
KatolaZoh12:50
KatolaZyou mean the x11-drivers for radeon12:50
esrI mean the Classic insaller didn't offer me the blobs when I went through a standard install.12:50
esrKatolaZ: Yes.12:50
KatolaZyeah12:50
KatolaZthis is not Ubuntu ;)12:50
KatolaZor Mint12:50
gnarface(neither of whose "polymorphic" installers cover every hardware type that all the devuan ones do anyway)12:50
esrWell, in that fespect it should be.12:51
KatolaZwell, that's not the mission of Devuan12:51
KatolaZthe mission is to have a Debian without systemd12:51
KatolaZnot an Ubuntu without systemd :)12:51
r3bootDebian comes with those blob drivers, why doesnt devuan? :)12:51
KatolaZr3boot: debian does not offer to install them at install time12:51
KatolaZDevuan has them in the repo as well12:51
KatolaZ(they actually come straight from Debian)12:52
r3bootAh, check, missed that detail12:52
esrSo, that's just stupid.12:52
KatolaZyeah, the difference is in the details...12:52
KatolaZno esr12:52
r3bootesr: mja, that's what you get with floss distro's. The design goal is more blob-free then having a working desktop12:52
KatolaZis just that we don't have enough developers to cater for all the possible use cases12:52
r3bootesr: it's possible, but you have to work around it12:52
esr"The design goal is more blob-free then having a working desktop" = "We crave irrelevance and failure"12:53
arminesr: it's a binary blob anyways, why should devuan include binary blobs?12:53
r3bootesr: look, you /chose/ to use devuan, so deal with their design goals ;)12:53
KatolaZesr: where did you read |"the design goal is more blob-free?"12:54
r3bootesr: if you want a working desktop, use ubuntu, mint, osx or windows or so12:54
KatolaZthat's not the Devuan goal12:54
r3bootKatolaZ: I wrote that.12:54
KatolaZo_O12:54
KatolaZr3boot: oh, but you said you had not even installed Devuan, and now you know about its goals :D12:54
r3bootKatolaZ: kinda, yeah, since I'm following quite some distro's12:55
esrr3boot: I can unchoose because I think the design goals are wrong.12:55
KatolaZthe design goal of Devuan is to have a debian without systemd12:55
KatolaZthat's it12:55
KatolaZas easy as that12:55
KatolaZr3boot: please do not set goals to others12:55
KatolaZunless you are working towards achieving them12:55
KatolaZ:)12:55
KatolaZesr: fine, you don't have to love Devuan12:56
KatolaZnoone has12:56
KatolaZor must12:56
KatolaZthe design goals are clear: debian without systemd and with alternatives available12:56
r3bootKatolaZ: you mean that devuan /does/ have working desktops as a design goal?12:56
r3bootah, here, see12:56
KatolaZr3boot: you should not assume anything12:56
r3bootI dont12:57
KatolaZyou should just read on http://devuan.org12:57
KatolaZr3boot: devuan is striving to have working desktops as well12:57
KatolaZand in fact ascii does have 5 working desktops12:57
KatolaZwithout systemd12:57
djphI really gotta put ascii back on the daily driver -- it broke a few things while it was unstable, so I had to move to something else for a while12:58
r3bootthat implies binary blobs, and preferrably on the installation phase, since having a working desktop takes quite a bit more effort then having a a12:58
KatolaZ(where "working" means having session-related stuff working)12:58
r3boot*systemd free debian12:58
r3bootBut I think we have different ideas of a working desktop12:58
KatolaZr3boot: you can define "works" as you like12:58
KatolaZif you want that to happen in Devuan, the easiste way is to help out12:58
KatolaZ:)12:58
KatolaZ~easiest12:58
djphI found XFCE to be quite nice when I needed it.  Although, I have to remember to fix the runlevels.13:00
r3bootI am here for giving support, not helping you out with developing devuan. I have talked with jaromil enough about the benefits and I've got a warm heart towards the developers, but I'm not some kind of noob who does not know how disto's work, and what needs to be done to get a *modern* box to work as a competitive desktop.13:00
KatolaZr3boot: knowing is not enough :)13:01
KatolaZ"doing" is actually needed13:01
KatolaZ:)13:01
KatolaZyou know what I mean13:01
r3bootMja, if I'm going to spend time on development (have worked on gentoo, arch, debian, centos, rh and suse on the distro level), it needs to be worth my while as well, and for me debian-without-systemd is not a productive way of building desktops. As a server, it will likely work out just fine (but it cannot compete with RH for instance), but as a desktop, I'm just not seeing that happen anytime soon13:03
djphso then stick with Debian13:04
r3bootwhile I would *love* to see that happen, so instead of just blanketly ignoring devuan, I'm spending my time helping out beginners to use linux/devuan13:04
r3bootdjph: that attitude does not help as well ;)13:04
* esr agrees with r3boot13:05
djphwell, if you want systemd-on-the-desktop ... or did I misunderstand that statement?13:05
r3bootyou mis-interpreted me, indeed13:05
esrdjph: You did.13:05
r3bootdjph: I want devuan to be a *competitive* desktop. Competitive to Arch, OSX and Windows13:06
djphesr: /me goes to refill coffee13:06
KatolaZr3boot: great. We don't have enough man-power atm to become a major desktop distro13:06
esrI think r3boot is arguiing that if you want users, you need to have an aim more like "Ubuntu without systemd".13:06
esrAh, I se I was correct.13:06
r3bootif it's going to be yet another linux desktop, with the same old boring non-accelerated apps, well, you might as well use any other distro or BSD for that matter13:06
KatolaZaccording to the well-informed, Devuan had to be dead 4 years ago already13:06
gnarfacelol yea i heard it only has a tiny fraction of the packages that debian does anyway :-p13:07
gnarfacewho would switch to a micro-distro??13:07
gnarfacei'm sorry, i'll stop13:07
r3bootKatolaZ: to my surprise, it's still working, and again, I was talking with Jaromil last summer about this, and there is enough drive behind it, but some big steps need to be taken to solidify it's position among the other systemd-based distro's13:08
r3boot(drive + money, btw)13:08
KatolaZr3boot: drive == developers interested in developing for the desktop13:08
KatolaZso far devuan is a voluntary effort13:08
KatolaZtotally voluntary13:08
r3bootlike most other distro's, yeah13:08
KatolaZUbuntu got there with a feew dozens developers13:08
KatolaZdedicated just to transform debian into a desktop distro13:09
r3bootAnd guess what the 2nd most popular server distro is? :)13:09
KatolaZwe don't have a few dozens developers13:09
KohlrabiI'd love to see less fracturing of the "Linux world", and more combined effort, the systemd nonsense has been an evil schism13:09
r3bootso how about working on PR then?13:09
esrI want to be able to put a systemd-less Linux on my wife's productioj desktop.  I couldn't - I had to got to Mint 19.13:09
KatolaZr3boot: because PR does not solve the problems on the desktop side alone13:10
r3bootKatolaZ: imho, it does not help that devuan has taken such a political stance against systemd. In doing so, it took on the risk of alienating a lot of developers13:10
KatolaZIMHO13:10
KatolaZo_O13:10
KohlrabiWe should focus our efforts on setting up angry feminists against Poettering13:10
r3bootit's part of a much bigger plan around building distro's13:10
esrI'm OKJ with being anti-systemd.13:10
KatolaZr3boot: and what should Devuan do instead?13:10
KatolaZo_O13:10
esrI'm not OK with being user-hostile.13:10
KatolaZDevuan was born exactly as a response to the systemd avalanche13:10
esrKatolaZ: Yeah, I'm not with r3boot on that part.13:11
r3bootKatolaZ: be more open to the developer community. Be more welcome to new users. Embrace new users. Get a huge usebase. Get populair and neutral enough that devs *want* to help developing13:11
KatolaZesr: I am not OK with user-hostile either, but user-friendly requires much more effort and we don't have that energy13:11
KatolaZthe rest follows13:11
KatolaZoh r3boot13:11
KatolaZI see :)13:11
Kohlrabir3boot: Developing Devuan basically means writing more and more patches to upstream stuff depending on systemd and friends?13:11
r3bootKatolaZ: people have been pretty hostile to me just because I'm neutral wrt systemd, just to give an example ;)13:12
KatolaZr3boot: not me for sure13:12
r3bootI know, not putting any blame on you for sure13:12
KatolaZbut you have also said that you are not interesting to help with devuan development, if I understood you  correctly13:12
r3bootat this moment, yes13:12
KatolaZok13:13
KatolaZfine13:13
r3bootbut I've been monitoring devuan a bit more closely since just a month or so, so maybe my attitude will change, dont know yet13:13
KatolaZwhen you are, just shout13:13
KatolaZ:)13:13
r3bootit'll kind of depends how I 'feel' in this community :)13:13
r3bootoh, thnx :)13:13
KatolaZI have learned that chatting is cheap and easy, while getting stuff done without driving the users crazy require actual work and dedication13:14
KatolaZI am not saying opinions are not important13:14
KatolaZquite the opposite13:14
r3bootI agree with you on that. That's also why I'm trying to help out with support here13:14
KatolaZI am just saying that opinions become changes only if somebody embraces them and does something in that direction13:14
esrRight, I too would need to believe thee's interest in being more friendly to new users before I'd consider putting time into Devuan development.13:14
r3bootKatolaZ: I see what you mean there13:15
KatolaZr3boot, esr: I am normally very direct and honest, with the risk of appearing harsh13:15
KatolaZbut this is how things work. unfortunately13:15
r3bootKatolaZ: you're not that bad tbh :) I've met much worse13:15
KatolaZthe mission of devuan so far has been to *exist*13:16
esrindeed he isn't.13:16
KatolaZagainst all odds13:16
KatolaZuntil 6 months ago we had put out only one release in about 3.5 years13:16
KatolaZnow we have 2 of them out13:17
KatolaZand actively working on the third one13:17
r3bootAnyway. esr, if you want to get your radeon card to work, install in text-only mode, and install the drivers afterwards13:17
esrKatolaZ: That's another problem I hit.  Your kernel is so old that it couldn't see the NIC in my wife's Intel NUC.13:17
r3bootKatolaZ: how big is the development team btw?13:17
KatolaZesr: just install the 4.18 from backports13:18
KatolaZr3boot: about a dozen people13:18
KatolaZmore or less13:18
r3bootOh, not too shabby13:18
KatolaZhttps://devuan.org/os/team/13:18
r3bootHey, I recognize multiple names there.. Hi :)13:19
KatolaZesr: I know it's not an answer for a newbie, but still, it's doable13:19
esrKatolaZ: Dude, *How was I supposed to know to do that?*  <Perform arechcane ritual involving sacrificing a goat at midnight> is never a good answer to an installation problem.13:19
KatolaZesr: it's just a line to add to sources.list, not a about sacrificing a goat :P13:20
KatolaZ(unless you use some arcane editor to do that, admittedly :P)13:20
r3boot.. must be nano .. ;+13:20
KatolaZindeed13:20
KatolaZ:D13:20
esr*grumble* You appear to be missing the point.13:20
KatolaZesr: I totally understand your point13:20
KatolaZbut you don't seem to be able to get mine :)13:21
r3bootesr: you cannot expect volunteers to fully cater for your needs. Not without you actively volunteering to get your things in there.13:21
KohlrabiIsn't it common knowledge to not install Debian stable when youu have semi-current hardware?13:21
KatolaZthere is a good community of Devuan users on dev1galaxy.org and here, that is very helpful with newcomers13:21
esrr3boot: Oh, I get that.  But...13:21
r3bootand what you need to do to get the radeon card to work is really not rocket science, but basic debian-distro knowledge13:21
KatolaZ(I guess)13:21
KohlrabiSame goes for Devuan I guess13:21
KatolaZesr: most of the user-friendly stuff relies on the shoulders of the Devuan community13:22
KatolaZlet's say it is like it was in the Linux world maybe 15 years ago13:22
esr...installation s a special case. If you don't mak e that really frictionless it is highjly unlikely that you'll grow the user- and support-base to solve your other scaling problems.13:23
KatolaZwhen the community around a distro was the main point of reference for user problems13:23
KatolaZesr: I know, but I can't do more than I am doing now for Devuan13:23
KatolaZyou won't believe that, but I know the theory very well :)13:24
KatolaZI hear you, but the only way out is to have people working on that13:24
KatolaZin this respect, some of the derivates have done a pretty good job13:25
KatolaZ(i.e., in careting for specific desktop needs)13:25
esrI don't think getting it right would necessarily involve a lot of effort.  I'm arguing, rather, for a shift in proorities.  More attention to newbie issues.13:25
KohlrabiKatolaZ: Isn't it possible to offer Beowulf images for users with newer hardware?13:26
KatolaZKohlrabi: ?13:26
r3bootesr: getting an idiot proof distro is really, really hard to do, and requires a lot of work. At the point where devuan is right now, I get the feeling that they are still dealing with the fallout that happened after the rest of the linux world moved to systemd, (think elogind for instance)13:26
KatolaZesr: I really hope we will be able to get there13:26
KohlrabiKatolaZ: From what I gathered esr complained that his NIC was not detected because of old kernel13:26
esrThat waas one problem, yess.13:27
KohlrabiSo usually if you have new H you install testing13:27
KohlrabiInstead of stable13:27
KatolaZKohlrabi: you could possibly use a beowulf mini-iso, but that's even more bare-bone than the netinst, atm13:27
KatolaZKohlrabi: in testing session0-management is not working yet13:27
KatolaZdue to problems with elogind + policykit13:27
KohlrabiKatolaZ: Oh, OK :(13:28
KatolaZthat's why I wouldn't suggest that as an opton to a newbie13:28
KatolaZwe are working on that13:28
KohlrabiOK, thankss13:28
esrThat NU is pretty old, actually. I got it on sale because it it's an i3 version, I don't think Intel ships those anymore.13:28
esrs/NU/NUC/13:28
KatolaZand we will probably have a Beowulf beta at some point13:29
esrIf it were really new haedware I'd be less critical.13:29
KatolaZesr: is the support available in recent kernels?13:29
esrKatolaZ: Yes. No issue under Mint 19.13:29
r3bootwhich kernel/driver was used under mint esr?13:30
man_in_shackew mint13:30
man_in_shacktoo much ubuntu in that mint13:30
esre1000.  Problem under devuan was just a missing alias.13:30
r3bootOoohhh13:30
KatolaZo_O13:31
esrman_in_shack: I agree, but I wasn't left with much choice.13:31
KatolaZesr: what do you mean by "was just a missing alias"?13:32
KatolaZwhere was the alias missing?13:32
KatolaZis it a problem of vendor-id?13:32
esrKatolaZ: Yes, the list of vendor-sybtype pairs just did not happen to have the right thing in it.13:33
KatolaZoh FFS13:33
KatolaZ:\13:33
esrMissing subtype, really.13:33
KatolaZthen it's down to the kernel device list really13:33
esrYes.13:33
KatolaZman, you see...13:34
Mithrandir__ciao KatolaZ ^^14:41
KatolaZhy Mithrandir__15:27
KatolaZnice to see you here :)15:27
Mithrandir__hi KatolaZ, nice to be here for me too15:42
Mithrandir__=)15:42
golinuxJust for the record . . .16:41
golinuxesr et al . . . I loathe shiny, shiny on my desktop.  I never even installed Mint but iirc, did play with a live cd and their tools totally suck.16:43
golinuxIt was a real turnoff.  Ditto ubuntu.16:44
r3bootgood :)16:45
golinuxMX Linux suffers from this too.16:45
golinuxThat whisker menu is an abomination16:46
r3bootI heard that having a LS-120 terminal is all the craze atm16:47
r3bootyou already have one? :P16:47
golinuxI prefer to have everything install as close to what I want and not have to rebuild the desktop entirely.16:48
golinuxNope.16:48
golinuxI am a minimalist in all things though.16:48
* golinux goes back to reading the logs from when I was sleeping.16:49
grillonhi there18:32
grillondoes anyone know avahi?(for zeroconf); when I don't have dhcp and dns in my network I cannot resolve name in .local :( I need to do avahi-resolve-host-name then use ip18:34
KatolaZgrillon: why do you need avahi at all?18:42
grillonhi KatolaZ19:15
grillonI have a mini cluster of orange pi PC I would like to be able to add and remove host anytime and port the whole ensemble anywhere19:17
grillonI would like anyone host to be main19:17
KatolaZok grillon but how does avahi get into play?19:18
KatolaZ(and why, more importantly?)19:18
grillonzeroconf for ip(dhcp), zeroconf for dns(mdns)19:18
grillonhosts are talking to each other by hostname19:19
KatolaZagain, since the hosts are known, why not having a local DNS19:20
KatolaZor sharing an /etc/hosts file?19:20
grillonthat's what I do now but I would like it to be dynamic. Because I would like it easy to reproduce19:20
grillonzeroconf pretend to need zeroconf and zero knowledge19:21
KatolaZthis is what they put in the advertisement, yes19:21
KatolaZbut reality is often different from advertisement19:21
KatolaZand nothing comes for free :D19:21
grillonyes seems so :(19:22
KatolaZgrillon: if the thing is a mini cluster, providing an easy way to share an /etc/hosts looks the easiest option to me19:23
grillonYou may be right. I thought zeroconf really need zeroconf :/19:25
KatolaZI know little of zeroconf, TBH19:25
KatolaZnever been able to put it at work in a real use-case19:26
KatolaZit's far too complicated19:26
grillon:)19:26
KatolaZIMHO, automatic stuff gonna get broken, and zeroconf normally does :D19:26
esrKatolaZ: Uh oh. Does seroconf not work in a default Devuan install?19:27
KatolaZno idea esr19:27
KatolaZI never install avahi&friends19:28
esrActually I can test this.19:28
grillonesr: it works if I already have dns and dhcp but without these I cannot resolve names so devices are not able to communicate by name19:29
grillonin my nsswitch I put mdns first19:30
KatolaZgrillon: be sure you have no restrictive firewall in place though19:30
grillonI did a iptables -F, it's wide open19:32
fsmithredFTR, avahi gets installed with the default desktop install. I would assume it works in devuan if it works in debian.19:36
esrConfirmed. I just tested on my expeimental ASCII install: zeroconf works out of the box.19:43
fsmithredcool.19:43
fsmithredI'm another one who doesn't install it, so I didn't know.19:44
grillonesr: what do you mean out of the box?19:51
esrgrillon: Fresh ASCII install.19:52
esrNo local mods.19:52
grillonso without any dhcp/dns you can obtain an IP and resolve it?19:52
grillon(resolv  name in .local)19:53
esrI don't know whether it's using dhcp for not. Probably is.  What I do know is: 1. I boot up with Ethernret plugged in, 2. I open a terminal window, 3. I do "ping snark.local" (snark being the name of another lost on my house net), and 4) it resolves to a local address and ping works.19:55
esrgrillon: I can also ssh from snark to grue.locl and the right things occur.19:56
esrdhcp may be involved in getting an IP address on boot - I don't know, I'm not a wizard in that area.19:57
esrBut that looks like "working correctly" to me.19:58
Leandernot needing a DHCP server is the point of zeroconf, but same here, never used it20:02
esrI think my router is a dhcp server.  But I have no clue how acahi and dhcp interact.20:03
djphesr: avahi?20:13
djphavahi / zeroconf / etc. relies on a functioning network20:14
djpheither via properly set static IPs, or DHCP20:14
esrdjph: The Linux zeroconf implementation.20:14
grillonas I said earlier when I have a dhcp it works20:14
djphesr: yeah, avahi-daemon is the mdns/bonjour/(zeroconf?) thing.  It's ... well, it tries to be useful...20:15
grillonI just cannot resolv when it's a 169.something address20:16
djphgrillon: yeah, you need *something* valid.  APIPA addresses (much like avahi) don't always work.20:16
djphAPIPA is more supposed to be "plugged the old desktop into the new one so I could transfer files because I don't have a real network"20:17
djph... or USB keys, etc...20:17
grillonyou mean it should be only for transition?20:19
KatolaZthe original reason to have zeroconf was net devices like printers and NAS devices20:20
KatolaZwhich in a home environment need to stay local20:20
KatolaZAFAIK20:22
grilloneach device are local for each other in my case20:23
grillondoes anyone use ipv6?20:27
golinuxNope.  Not me20:30
esrHave begun writing rant on Galaxy. "A philosophical diatribe: How to avoid having users - and how not to"20:31
grillonnow it works :)20:33
grillonseems I have forgot avahi-autoipd on one side20:33
grillonnot sure it's the cause but I have installed it and...euhh no it's not working...20:35
djphjust use a proper network (i.e. NO APIPA)20:37
djphI have a dualstack test network, but most everything is v420:37
grillonI have dualstack network to and sometimes with APIPA only ipv6 is up20:38
grillonif I ssh a domain name with an ipv6 behind I have "ssh: connect to host devuan.local port 22: Invalid argument"20:39
grillondevuan.local is the domain name of one of the SBC20:39
grillonso I have to use ssh -6 my_ip_v6%my_link instead of ssh my_domain_name20:40
grillonI have read it's because the scope of my ipv6 addr is link20:42
grillonis it possible to ssh a domain name instead of an ip? or is it really normal to use ip in ipv6?20:43
grillon(and I think I know how to be sure to resolve APIPA : declare services in /etc/avahi/services) unfortunately I could not make it work in dual stack or ipv620:45
djphno, v6 uses dns more than ip addresses20:55
grillonhow could I ssh a local domain? djph20:56
grillonlocal domain reachable via an ip of scope link20:57
grillonhehe sorry to polute :(21:08
grillonthe answer is in the man ...21:09
grillonman avahi-autoipd21:09
grillonnow everything works but it's not zeroconf. few things to do are install avahi package everywhere, launch avahi-autoipd, declare ssh service, make static routes21:12
grillonconfigure hosts in every device is much easier thank you for advices and I'm happy it works anyway :p21:13
system16should i install apache http on my sftp server ? by doing so everyone can access the data on the server without using a sftp client21:21
system16ONLY on LAN tho21:21
system16or i can create my own website (lets say something like a vlog website idk)21:23
djphsystem16: what?21:54
system16djph, nothing21:55
system16i dont need apache21:55
djphunless you want to run a webserver21:55
system16man. i really like running a web server but i have no idea how to create a .html file21:57
system16aka a good website21:57
djphvi file.html <- bam, done.22:03
system16i know that22:04
system16i mean22:04
system16i want to create a nice looking web site22:04
system16but i have 0 knowledge about designing web sites22:04
djphstatic html looks nice22:23
system16wat22:23
system16^^see thats the problem22:23
djphthere is literally nothing wrong or ugly about black text on a white background22:24
system16well i cant even do that22:24
system16(also in my opinion , it does look ugly)22:24
djph<html><body> ... </body></html>22:25
system16and how do u put a file on there so ppl can download it22:27
system16directly from the server22:27
system16cause you know, its actually a file server too.22:27
djph<a href=/path/to/file>texthere</a>22:29
system16so :22:29
system16<html>22:29
system16<body>22:29
system16<a href=/path/to/file>texthere</a>22:29
system16<html>22:30
system16<body> ?22:30
system16oh wait that just shows the file22:31
system16add hi welcome to this server before <a href=/path/to/file>texthere</a>22:31
golinuxCheck out W3C22:31
golinuxAnd please take an html lesson to #debianfork22:32
system16yup22:33
golinuxThanks.22:33
system16i succ at developing websites :)22:33

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