freenode/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2019-01-15

gnarfacethe stuff systemd changed in debian includes default device permissions and power management stuff00:02
gnarfaceiatrogenic: what does dmesg say when you plug in the kindle?00:07
iatrogenicKindle does show up "Bus 003 Device 023: ID 1949:0004 Lab126, Inc. Amazon Kindle 3/4/Paperwhite"00:07
gnarfacedoes it refer to a specific /dev/ file anywhere in the output?00:08
gnarfacemaybe more than one?00:09
iatrogenicAh, it's a permission issue. Running it as root works00:10
gnarfaceyea, that's a common problem people run into.  systemd (insecurely) grants full access to all devices by default to the currently logged-in console user.   devuan (and debian wheezy and earlier) makes no distinction, and obeys the filesystem.00:11
gnarfacethis will bite you in the ass if you're trying to get a Steam Controller working too, just fyi, but i can provide you help fixing the udev rules00:12
iatrogenicHow do I specifically grant full access to it, gnarface?00:12
gnarfacetemporarily or permanently?00:13
iatrogenicpermanently00:13
gnarfacethere's a few ways00:13
gnarfacebut permanently the two primary ways would be either you 1) edit the udev rules or 2) edit the user's group memberships00:14
gnarfaceif you're really a control freak like me you can do both00:14
gnarfacewhat are the default user and group memberships for the file?00:14
gnarfacemaybe the default udev rules already put it in a useful group you can add your user to00:14
gnarfacelike, a lot of cameras go in the "video" group, which you have to be in for nvidia drivers too00:16
gnarfaceso in that example it's easy enough to just add your user to the video group00:16
gnarface(then relog)00:16
gnarface(for group memberships change everywhere you'll want to log out and log back in as part of the standard procedure)00:17
gnarfacei can help you with specifics but fyi the debian *wheezy* documentation on how to do this stuff should also be still pertinent, if you're having trouble finding the right info00:19
gnarfaceiatrogenic: sorry, maybe i wasn't clear enough, what are the permissions on the /dev/ node?00:19
iatrogenicgnarface: brw-rw---- 1 root disk 8, 16 Jan 14 22:44 /dev/sdb00:22
iatrogenicWhat do I look for in the documentation, gnarface?00:23
gnarfacewell, there's a debian wiki that's still a lot better populated than anything we have00:23
gnarfacethough i suspect someone has written something about this stuff on the forums too (mentioned in channel topic)00:24
gnarfacethis is a bit of a tricky issue00:24
gnarfaceit's in the "disk" group by default, which would be a security risk to add your user to, as all your disks are in the disk group00:24
iatrogenicWell, it's fine. For now just running it as root should do00:24
gnarfacei can help you add yourself to the disk group, that's really easy00:24
gnarfaceeasier than always running it as root00:24
gnarfacethough arguably maybe not any more or less secure00:25
gnarfacemaybe less actually00:25
gnarfacei'm not sure00:25
gnarfacebut you could also make a udev rule to give this one device a custom group00:25
iatrogenicIsn't that just "useradd -G disk myuser" ?00:26
gnarfaceor make it globally readable and writeable (not sure if that's a safer idea or not, overall... it's less safe for the kindle but more safe for the rest of the computer)00:26
gnarfacei'm pretty sure you can use useradd still, but the "debianized" tools are adduser/addgroup00:26
gnarfaceyou can still just edit /etc/group and /etc/passwd by hand too00:27
gnarfacethe most secure approach would be to write a custom udev rule for this one device but that's a pain in the ass to figure out00:28
iatrogenicSo sudo adduser me disk ?00:28
gnarfacelemme look...00:28
iatrogenicAh, security isn't a big concern for me00:28
gnarfaceok, just as long as you're sure you understand the implications00:28
gnarfaceraw disk access is something you could do a lot of damage with00:29
gnarfaceand yes00:29
gnarfaceit's "adduser user group"00:30
iatrogenicBut didn't you say systemd does this by default? Are distros that use systemd that insecure?00:30
gnarfaceheh, yes00:30
gnarfacebut so is windows so people don't care, i guess.  :(00:30
iatrogenicIt's more about the time it takes to learn and get used to this stuff00:31
iatrogenicToo often I just end up looking for step-by-step instructions instead of taking some time to read a man page..00:32
iatrogenicBad habits00:32
iatrogenicBut I picked devuan with the intent of making an effort of actually learning something00:32
gnarfacetry to remember you gain more than a solution to the immediate task, you gain understanding that will simplify future tasks in unexpected ways00:33
gnarfaceand most of it you'll only have to learn once :)00:33
gnarfacethe hardest part about learning it is just how humbling it all is when you understand it well enough to know when it's actually your fault or the software's fault00:34
gnarfacebut everyone goes through that00:34
iatrogenicAnd usually, blindly following that sort of stuff just ends up breaking things and having no clue on how to fix it00:34
gnarfacewindows also sets low expectations on payoff - it's often inscrutable even after reading the built-in help00:35
gnarfacethe built-in help for linux isn't as good as BSD but it's a lot better than windows, and worth reading00:36
gnarfaceit'll pay off, have faith in that00:36
gnarfaceand people on irc will always be willing to help if you're patient enough00:36
iatrogenicI'll keep at it. Thanks for the words of wisdom00:38
iatrogenicRestarting to see if it worked00:38
bsd4meGot a few problems, but running devuan with 4.19 kernel :)00:40
gnarfaceheh, nice.  custom build, bsd4me?  or did you pilfer a kernel from another distro?00:41
bsd4melol, just used the mini.iso and went from there00:42
gnarfaceoh i see00:42
gnarfaceso that's based on beowulf?00:43
bsd4meLinux devuan 4.19.0-1-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.12-1 (2018-12-22) x86_64 GNU/Linux00:43
bsd4meyes00:43
gnarfaceif you're having problems getting the graphical environment to work right, i'm pretty sure there's a thread on the forums about it00:43
bsd4menow trying to find all the firmware I need that wasn't installed at installation :)00:43
bsd4meI'm on xfce4 now :)00:44
gnarfacecool00:44
bsd4memainly trying to find all firmware files for ath10k wireless. Found one, but missing couple others evidently.00:45
gnarfacei think there's a firmware-atheros package00:47
gnarfacein non-free00:47
gnarfaceas well as a firmware-linux-nonfree package00:47
gnarface(which i don't know if you need)00:47
gnarfaceand also a firmware-linux-free package, which i also don't know if you need00:47
gnarfaceand various other vendor-specific firmware packages00:47
bsd4meyes, installed the firmware-atheros pkg, but still missing couple of files. But I'm getting there :)00:48
gnarfaceit is also possible they're that new00:48
gnarfacethe files, that is00:48
gnarfacethat they're not in the package yet00:48
gnarfacebut maybe they're just in another package too00:48
gnarfacei'm not sure00:49
bsd4meugh...hope that isn't true, since I really need wireless00:49
gnarfacewell, if you know for sure they're supposed to be in the firmware-atheros package, check to see if there's a newer copy in ceres00:49
bsd4meI'm looking at the wiki/firmware page and going thru all the files.00:49
gnarfacenormally you'd expect a complaint of some sort in the dmesg output if firmware files are missing00:50
bsd4mewhere do I look for ceres packages?00:50
bsd4meyes, that's what I'm seeing00:50
gnarfacepkginfo.devuan.org00:50
bsd4meah, thank you much!00:51
gnarfacethough, looking now it seems like beowulf should have the same version of that package as ceres as well as ascii-backports00:51
gnarfaceyou might actually need to get the files from atheros's website or something like that00:52
gnarfaceit might be a known bug00:53
gnarfacei'd check debian's bug tracker for issues related to that package00:53
bsd4mesearch brought up name, but no file?00:53
bsd4meok, shows files under stable tho00:54
bsd4meoops, spoke too soon :)00:55
gnarfacehttps://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=90343701:00
gnarfaceis this the same issue?01:00
gnarfacethere appears to be evidence this happens a lot with this package :(01:01
bsd4me:(   yes01:06
bsd4mebut works fine with other distros that I've been trying on this laptop01:06
gnarfaceoh?  well that means those files exist somewhere01:07
gnarfaceyou can just copy them into this directory manually01:07
gnarfacethat will work if they're the right version and everything01:07
gnarfacedid you try other distros using kernel 4.21 or something?01:08
bsd4meI have Slackware current with 4.19, linuxmint with 4.2001:09
bsd4melol, also used fedora and manjaro. Been trying different distros to see how they work on this laptop. Wireless worked fine on all of them, but I have a very strong dislike for systemd :)01:10
gnarfacehmmm.  interesting.  well, like i said.  copying in the files manually should work.  i wonder what the hold up is, but i'm sure someone will fix it eventually.01:12
bsd4meWas just looking at /lib/firmware. Probably what I'll do is as you suggested, copy from another.01:14
gnarfacethat should be a suitable temporary fix anyway01:14
gnarfacehopefully they'll fix it soon01:15
golinuxbsd4me: Did you reade the Release Notes?01:15
bsd4megolinux: ummm, nope, just installed from iso you mentioned.01:16
gnarfacegolinux: i think it's legitimately a bug in the package from upstream01:16
gnarfacemissing firmware files01:16
gnarfaceunless you know something specific about it01:17
bsd4megolinux: I did read the readme.testing file tho01:17
golinuxsources.list?  Yeah, right.  No release notes for beowulf yet.  But the ascii release notes will be helpful to sort polkit stiff.01:18
golinuxThis was my solution for xfce desktop: https://forum.xfce.org/viewtopic.php?pid=50562#p5056201:18
golinuxYou need to have non-free enabled. Sources should point to pkgmaster01:20
golinuxHi prkman.  Long time no see01:20
golinuxTrying again . . . pekman01:20
pekmanhi golinux01:21
golinux:D01:21
drwhitehi folks01:41
drwhiteI just heard that Devuan is going to become SystemD, is this true?01:42
Xenguybjb: You oot and aboot?02:09
Xenguydrwhite: What?  Citations please!02:09
fsmithredWere there any messages for me while I was away?02:10
Xenguyfsmithred: I recall your nick was mentioned02:10
Xenguywb02:10
golinuxdrwhite: hahahaha!  Not while we still draw breath.02:11
fsmithredthanks02:11
XenguyThey'll pry my non-systemd system out of... oh, never mind02:11
fsmithredwe'll just hack them and shut them down before they can take it away from you02:12
XenguyI like that scenario02:16
drwhitegolinux: Good to hear. I heard it was because so much software is coming out as systemd integrated and it was a pain and hard to keep up with it all to revert it back to sysvinit02:34
drwhitegolinux: Or will they just remove sysvinit and go openrc or other selection?02:35
golinuxopenrc is already and option02:37
golinuxAnd yes, it requires more effort with each release.  We can always use more help to clean contaminated packages.02:38
drwhitehow does one clean them?02:38
fsmithredbbiab02:39
golinuxBy removing hard systemd dependencies02:39
drwhitegolinux: So there has been nothing stating anywhere that devuan is switching to systemd?02:39
golinuxNot a chance.02:39
drwhiteOkay, good to hear02:39
drwhitegolinux: I'll try to find out where this information originated from02:40
golinuxThanks.02:42
golinuxI heard this morning from a good source that Devuan is trending on social media.  Might be because of the latest vulnerabilities02:44
XenguyWhat they have 'social media' (what is IRC?) and they just found about Devuan now?02:45
XenguyNice to have more eyes focussed on Devuan though02:45
golinuxIndeed.02:48
drwhitegolinux: Still trying to find out..03:07
drwhitegolinux: I was unable to post in the dev channel earlier. lol03:07
drwhitegolinux: aparently it was a report where it was discussed. Not a report saying that it was.03:54
drwhiteJust discussed as in saying about how it was hard to get all that stuff dont.03:54
drwhitedont -> done03:54
drwhiteIf I knew how to get rid of systemD requirements from things, I'd help out. But unfortunately I don't know how.03:55
proteus-dudegolinux, what vulnerabilities are you referring to? I'm just curious.04:05
proteus-dudewas something new found in systemd?04:06
golinuxproteus-dude: https://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/all/2019/01/10/systemd_bugs_qualys/04:22
golinuxI think the bugs have been fixed04:22
golinuxBut no doubt, more to come.04:22
watchcatif ascii had been the first devuan release, i think it would have taken off bigtime. the jessie release might have given people a bad impression.04:24
proteus-dudegolinux, geeez.....04:25
proteus-dudethanx for the pointer04:25
* proteus-dude runs kubuntu 14.04 which is the last pre-systemd version and is about to hit end of life. Buying a new laptop soon and will be giving devuan a whirl. Tried funtoo last year but was too much work keeping it running and updated.04:26
watchcatproteus-dude: ascii is the cat's ass. i can't believe how good it is.04:28
proteus-dudewatchcat, will give it a try in a couple of weeks.04:29
furrymcgeehow to apache2ctl start with devuan chroot? apache2ctl start reads pid 1 and is requesting systemctl but this does not exist with devuan in debian chroot10:51
Guest52438hi guys. I removed systemd and installed sysvinit from Jessie. Now ctl-alt-f2 to f5 doesn't work.ctl-alt-f1 and f7 do. OS works fine otherwise. You guys have any idea why?14:11
buZzGuest52438: those terminals are spawned from config in /etc/inittab14:13
buZzctrl-alt-f1 ; 1:2345:respawn:/sbin/getty 38400 tty114:13
buZzctrl-alt-f2 ; 2:23:respawn:/sbin/getty 38400 tty214:13
buZzetc14:13
Guest52438my /etc/inittab looks like this14:15
buZzGuest52438: pastebin.com14:17
Guest52438sorry, paste is not allowed?14:17
buZznot when >3 lines14:19
buZzits pretty offensive to paste endless txt to >200 people just cause you dont want to use pastebin.com ;)14:19
Guest52438sorry, newb. https://pastebin.com/jCkxQuFg14:20
Guest52438it's identical to /usr/share/sysvinit/inittab14:21
Guest52438except for run level14:21
Guest52438changed to 4 instead of 214:22
buZzwait, does ctrl-alt-f2 etc also not work -BEFORE- starting X?14:23
Guest52438never tried it. I've only tried while using openbox.14:24
Guest52438so GUI to console14:25
buZzwell, your xorg config needs to allow it aswell ;)14:28
Guest52438which file?14:29
buZznot sure14:31
furrymcgeeregarding my question apache2 in chroot: export APACHE_STARTED_BY_SYSTEMD=false in apache2/envars for what its worth14:32
Guest52438thanks. we'll see.14:34
AntoFoxo/14:37
Guest52438btw, is devuan libre only OS? I tried Refracta and the resolution was 1024x786. I couldn't figure it out so I gave up at that time.14:41
fsmithredGuest52438, you can use non-free and contrib sources, same as debian14:53
Guest52438thanks.14:55
fsmithredwhat's your graphics card?14:55
fsmithredand what happens when you try ctrl-alt-F2? Nothing? Go to black screen?14:56
buZzrefracta is only based on devuan ;) like ubuntu is based on debian16:24
buZzthey're not specifically related, per-say16:24
fsmithredbuZz, that's not exactly right - refracta uses devuan repos.16:28
fsmithredit's just a re-spin, not a truly distinct distro.16:28
buZzfsmithred: ah yeah,. true16:28
buZzbut refracta could just split off to a different base without 'devuan's actions16:29
fsmithredmaybe some firmware package was needed. No non-free or contrib are installed in refracta.16:29
fsmithredwhat are you getting me into???16:29
buZz<316:29
fsmithredyeah, I could switch it back to debian if I wanted.16:29
buZzrefracta was debian prior?16:30
fsmithredyes16:30
buZzare you the maintainer fsmithred ? :P16:30
fsmithredversion numbers are still in sync with debian versions16:30
fsmithredyeah, that's mine16:30
buZz:) ok, TIL16:30
niknakI have a question: what is latest live in download repos? Jessie or ascii?18:44
niknakascii looks like it, per /topic?18:44
LiebachHello18:55
iatrogenicDoes anyone know what could be causing fonts to look like this? Present in other websites like twitter, etc... https://i.imgur.com/kIpSa8f.png20:02
gnarfaceiatrogenic: looks like anti-aliasing is off.  there's a few things that might have caused it, like not having any truetype fonts installed and it falling back to some older format that didn't support anti-aliasing20:08
gnarface(try installing ttf-bitstream-vera and restart the browser then see if it goes away)20:08
gnarfaceactually you might need to restart Xorg20:09
gnarfacenot sure about that20:09
iatrogenicI have some truetype fonts installed so it's not that20:10
iatrogenicJust installing that package and restarting firefox didn't work. I'll try restartin xorg20:10
iatrogenicIt did not work, gnarface20:15
iatrogenicOnline people recommend installing infinately. But I've read elsewhere that it's outdated20:16
_abc_I've tried to move var etc home and tmp as leaf mounts on root in ascii, then remount root as ro. I could not. Why is this not possible?20:19
_abc_I could use lsof etc to find out what holds root open ro, but I would like an official answer?20:20
KatolaZ_abc_: defide "I coudl not"20:20
_abc_mount / -o remount,ro - failed, device in use20:20
_abc_with -f it succeeds but nothing happens to fstab/mtab20:21
KatolaZ_abc_: when are you attempting to remount?20:21
KatolaZ(at which stage of boot?)20:21
gnarfaceiatrogenic: i've never heard of that so i can confirm you don't need it.  you shouldn't be having this problem anymore though unless you broke something yourself.  typically it would be in the form of an omitted package, or an omitted line from your xorg.conf, or an invalid path to the fonts in your xorg.conf.... any of that ring a bell?  was this a minimal install?  an upgrade from another system?  do you have a custom20:22
gnarfacexorg.conf left over from an earlier era perhaps?20:22
KatolaZiatrogenic: are you sure you didn't uninstall xfonts-*dpi?20:24
gnarface_abc_: that doesn't work.  you can't remount the root partition you're currently running from.  you have to pivot_root to another root filesystem first while you do that.  (fyi it would be WAY easier to just set it to be read-only already at boot time in /etc/fstab)20:24
_abc_gnarface: if it is read-only can I leaf mount etc var home on it?20:27
_abc_I mean can the system?20:27
gnarface_abc_: i'm not sure what you mean by a "leaf mount"  ... you mean can those be separate partitions?  if so, yes.20:27
_abc_I set option ro on root in fstab and it is ignored. The rootfs is mounted rw20:28
gnarfacein fact it's advisable that /var is a separate partition20:28
gnarfaceit's NOT advisable that /var is read-only20:28
gnarfacebut i'm not your momma20:28
gnarfacereally?  lemme see your fstab20:28
KatolaZ_abc_: /var cannot be read-only...20:28
KatolaZjust for the fact that you have /var/log into it20:28
KatolaZunless you are going east with your setup20:28
_abc_var is obviously not ro, root is marked ro, and is mounted rw anyway20:28
gnarfaceKatolaZ: is that strictly true?  i think it'll work if you kill off literally every daemon, as well as kernel logging...20:29
gnarfacei admit to never trying it though20:29
_abc_var has to be rw20:29
KatolaZgnarface: sure, but you would be as blind as a blinfolded blind person in a black chamber...20:29
gnarfacesure, true20:29
KatolaZ:D20:29
_abc_In general, var, tmp, etc (sometimes), home should be rw, root can be ro20:29
gnarfaceroot can be ro, but it's probably not what you're going for.  i think you probably want /boot to be ro, and leave the rest as normal20:31
gnarface(obviously implying you have /boot as a separate partition)20:31
gnarfaceroot should be the only one with access to / anyway20:32
gnarfaceer, the only one with write access20:32
gnarfacei honestly can't tell you why your fstab would be getting ignored unless it was a syntax error though20:32
golinuxiatrogenic: serif fonts suck.  That is the first offense of that screenie.21:17
golinux_abc_: Still here/21:17
iatrogenicIt's from a random blog, golinux21:24
golinuxYou can choose the font your browser uses,21:24
iatrogenichttps://i.imgur.com/5FhXLWO.png an example of how it looks on twitter21:25
gnarfaceiatrogenic: yea can you just make sure your firefox preferences aren't doing this to you?21:26
gnarfaceanother possibility would involve all your tests so far being through Wine21:26
gnarfaceyou aren't doing that to us without saying so, are you?21:27
gnarfacecause Wine doesn't enable font anti-aliasing by default either21:27
iatrogenicI've only changed the font before and now changed it back to the default21:27
gnarfacehmmm21:27
iatrogenicI don't have Wine installed21:27
gnarfaceok21:27
gnarfacedo you have the packages fontconfig and fontconfig-config installed?21:27
gnarfaceif not, install them both.  if so, run "dpkg-reconfigure fontconfig-config"21:27
iatrogenicYes, I have them21:28
golinuxiatrogenic: I noticed in that text a recommendation to use a PPA.   Please don't do that.  It could break your system.21:28
golinuxOnly use packages from devuan repos not even from Debian.21:29
iatrogenicThanks, I was only considering it if nothing else worked21:33
iatrogenicAnyway this is not system-breaking I'll try looking a bit more into it later, thanks for the help21:33
_abc_golinux: sorry was away with chores and norsing my mozzie bite. In January. I sprayed etc. Terrible.21:40
_abc_golinux: go ahead21:40
golinuxYou were asking about the location of a script in in live installer.21:42
_abc_Oh I think I've moved on.21:42
golinuxI talked to fsmithred and he said to look in /lib/live/boot and /lib/live/config21:42
_abc_The fsck is however a clusterf* currently. At boot, initrd has a go at fsck, then the scripts in /etc/init.d/checkroot.sh has a go then the /etc/init.d/checkfs.sh has a go. Crazy.21:43
_abc_golinux: ok, thanks. All the best to fsmithred heh. Whatever his problems are.21:43
golinuxHe got reconnected last night so will be around again21:43
golinuxIn fact is is right now!21:44
_abc_Another way to skin this cat is to use fsmithred's refracta2usb but put the live system on the hdd, and handle the ro mounts I need as overlayfs's21:44
golinuxhe is . . .duh21:44
_abc_Duh?21:44
golinuxcorrected a typo21:44
* _abc_ waves welcome to fsmithred 21:44
golinuxMy brain and fingers are not well-connected21:45
_abc_No problem. Deep Winter here, been ambling outdoors for 5 hours today, I am broken. Also flu end. Great combo.21:45
_abc_Are modern devuans like ascii even able to boot without initrd? What happens if I set it to none in the boot kernel cli?21:46
_abc_I'll be in and out myself a bit, aka abcabc_* sometimes (phone)21:46
golinuxI have no idea.  Probably depends on your setup.  With a DE probably not.21:47
_abc_DE?21:47
golinuxDesktop Environment21:47
_abc_Hm? What has the DE got to do with it?21:49
golinuxautomagic stuff.21:49
gnarfaceiatrogenic: lemme know if you figure it out... could be a bug but in most cases this type of thing is a user error21:49
gnarfaceiatrogenic: it's fringe, but it might be even be some gtk theme issue21:50
gnarfacesee if you can find some programs where the fonts look right ... that might be a clue21:50
golinuxgtk would affect the browser frame but not the contents.  From my theming experience same goes for guis.21:54
golinuxgnarface: ^^^21:55
gnarfacegolinux: can't the theme disable type hinting and font anti-aliasing for truetype fonts, even within the browser rendering window?  i thought it could but i don't know for sure.  i know none of them do but the options are available in gtk2 at least, someone could do this to themselves.  but like i said earlier, it would likely be self-inflicted...21:58
gnarfacegtk-xft-antialias=021:59
gnarfacegtk-xft-hinting=0?21:59
gnarfaceno?21:59
gnarfacegtk-xft-hintstyle-?21:59
_abc_Is it possible to write a live devuan image to a hdd/ssd and simply boot from it without further need for manual settings?21:59
_abc_It is a hybrid, so it should boot, no?21:59
_abc_sata drive, appears as sda when the system is running.22:00
_abc_I'd like to try that with a refracta2usb image22:00
gnarface_abc_: good question...22:00
_abc_Well I will try this, there is nothing to lose.22:00
gnarface_abc_: if you're using refracta anyway, you don't need a live image.  however i was under the impression that the "install" icon in the existing live image basically just does this.22:01
gnarfacenot a raw dd of the image22:01
_abc_Also I turned off swapfs in ascii installed to hdd, does not seem to change anything.22:01
gnarfacebut a clone of the contents at least22:01
gnarfaceyou should not disable swap22:02
_abc_gnarface: why22:02
_abc_It seems to work better with it gone. Faster boot22:02
gnarfaceif you need it but don't have it, things crash22:03
gnarfaceuntil that point you don't notice22:03
_abc_I don't expect that to be needed.22:03
gnarfaceit would be safer to just set /proc/sys/vm/swappiness to 022:04
gnarfacethen it will avoid using it unless it does need it22:04
golinux_abc_: So you just want to boot from the line, not install it?22:04
_abc_I am aware of the various tuning options yes22:04
golinuxline > live22:04
_abc_I want to use the live image with persistence later but with recovery to a snapshot of the persistence image when needed.22:05
golinuxThen just dd to a usb stick22:05
_abc_Kiosk mode.22:05
_abc_I want it internal.22:05
nemoheh. our FOSS game feedback mechanism just got someone demanding their money back22:07
nemothey are on a version we released in 2013 and an ubuntu from 2013 too - I bet someone sold them a bootable CD22:08
gnarfacehow rude22:08
Wonkadafuq?22:08
nemowe've had it happen before22:08
nemoat one point we had a tip about the game being free and you not having to pay for it, but decided that was against spirit of FOSS so pulled it from our tips file22:08
nemohis response was a bit uncool tho22:08
nemo"Bonsoir à toute l'équipe de ce jeu merdique! J'aimerais reçevoir un remboursement immédiat sur l'achat de ce jeu"22:09
nemoⒶ We didn't sell it to you Ⓑ You're trying to run something from 2013 on your machine, ofc it has problems. Bet it is running at 15fps in software rendering mode22:09
nemo(this is Hedgewars FWIW)22:10
Wonkawell, stuff from 2013 could actually run quite fast ...22:10
nemoWonka: oh, the game itself in theory still runs on cards w/ 512 max texture size - we even got it running on first gen iphone22:11
nemoWonka: but we don't do well in software emulated gl22:11
WonkaI'm on a 2011 MacBook Pro, that should be supported quite well too ;)22:11
nemoOSX builds are entirely dependent on who is willing to do them22:12
nemoso I think old MBP is desupported, although you could probably get it working yourself22:12
nemowe don't actually have OSX for latest release.  ☹22:12
WonkaI'm running Devuan on it.22:13
nemo++22:13
Wonkawith, currently, Linux 4.2022:14
WonkarEFInd boots that quite nicely in EFI mode22:14
nemoWonka: my poor boss when Apple went pure composited window manager only.22:14
nemothere were a bunch of oldish macs at the office w/ like 256MB of vRAM or something like that22:14
nemoI should've turned 'em into linux machines22:15
nemobut there were useless as macs after updating22:15
gnarfaceperfect for linux, and for heating the room!22:15
Wonkamy first Linux box had 1MB of VRAM (and 40MB of main RAM)22:15
gnarfacei hear they also make good fish tanks22:15
nemognarface: in wintertime, all computing is 100% efficient22:15
Wonkagnarface: cat caves22:15
nemoWonka: you've got me beat there, but I did have a laptop for a long while w/ 96MB of RAM22:16
nemoWonka: I ran a surprisingly usable XFCE desktop w/ Seamonkey and Abiword22:16
Wonkafluxbox, iirc...22:16
nemoWonka: was the only gentoo where I used -Os22:16
nemoto try and cut down on ram  consumption22:17
WonkaSuSE 4.4 in the beginning22:17
Wonkalater Debian22:17
nemoWonka: I started linux w/ redhat 'cause my roommate was their webmaster at the time22:18
Wonkahmmm... I had a RedHat 7.2 on a different machine inbetween22:19
nemoWonka: I think I started on RH422:20
WonkaSuSE 4.4 with some Linux 2.0.x... later that RedHat 7.2 with Linux 2.4.x...22:22
Wonkaleft out 2.2.x22:22
Wonkanow nearly on 5.0-rc22:22
nemoWonka: guess we started at roughly same time then22:23
Wonkasome time '97, '98 it must have been22:23
nemoah. ok. I'm slightly ahead then ☺22:24
nemo'9622:24
Wonka:)22:24
golinuxThis is a devuan channel not a redhat or mac one.  ;)22:24
watchcatslackware -> debian -> devuan22:24
nemogolinux: or a linux-one-upmanship channel?22:24
golinuxYeah.  More suited to #debianfork22:25
Wonkawell... gotta go to bed anyway. sleep well!22:27
nemohttps://m8y.org/tmp/console_images/  chafa vs catimg for those of you who spend a ton of time in terminal windows like I do. catimg also took 15 minutes to render the "high res" vs a couple of seconds for chafa22:27
nemoWonka: 'n822:27
fsmithredping _abc_23:21
fsmithredrefracta2usb won't list internal drives - only usb drives.23:21
_abc_.23:21
fsmithredhi23:22
_abc_Hi fsmithred wb23:22
fsmithredthanks23:22
_abc_I'll try to shoehorn it in then?23:22
_abc_Manually.23:22
fsmithredyeah, that would work. dd would work, too, but then you probably can't make other partitions.23:22
_abc_Do you think a live hybrid ascii dvd dd'd into a hdd will boot?23:22
_abc_Oh I did the other partitions thing yes23:23
fsmithredyeah, I've done it23:23
_abc_fdisk on the dd'd image23:23
fsmithredI think it will only work with the i38623:23
_abc_but what I really want is the refracta boot env which permits editing the boot cli of the kernel on the dd'd image23:23
_abc_It's an i386 ok23:23
fsmithrednot sure I understand - you can edit the boot command with grub or syslinux23:24
fsmithredpress e or tab, respectively23:24
_abc_fsmithred: not persistently?23:24
_abc_That I know of.23:24
fsmithredno, just a one-off that way23:25
fsmithredcan't edit the isohybrid image23:25
_abc_I used your multi-boot refracta installer? That allows this. That;s the one I would like to use, but you said it won't do hdd.23:26
fsmithredif you manually do what refracta2usb does, then you can edit the boot menu, but only after you do one of two things...23:26
_abc_I am aware.23:26
fsmithredeither boot a live-CD(USB)23:26
_abc_I would like to not do all the edit manually.23:26
_abc_I.e. refracta2usb manual full workflow.23:27
fsmithredor patch the initrd so you can write to the first parttion23:27
_abc_Use as much as possible from the automation.23:27
gnarface_abc_: i thought about something else about the read-only mountpoint issue - i suddenly recalled that i don't think all filesystems even support that option, and rather rely on the permissions of the top-level directory of the filesystem on that partition itself23:27
fsmithredoh wait, there's one more way23:27
_abc_gnarface: no23:27
fsmithredboot the live system with the word, persistence in the boot command23:27
_abc_gnarface: the mount mode has precedence over the permissions23:27
fsmithredbut don't tell it to use a persistent volume23:27
gnarface_abc_: i'm telling you that i'm not sure that's true for every filesystem driver23:28
fsmithredand then root will be able to write to the fat32 partition when it's running23:28
_abc_fsmithred: ah, and then do refracta?23:28
_abc_I think I see what you mean.23:28
_abc_An isohybrid is always a FAT32? I think not?23:28
fsmithredphone - brb23:29
_abc_What is that thing called that you made, I am using it on an usb stick. FAT32 holding grub and several devuan/etc images.23:29
gnarfacepart of it is a fat32 partition, but most of it is not23:31
_abc_:)23:31
fsmithredif you make a live-usb with refracta2usb, the first partition is fat3223:31
fsmithredand is read-only unless you do some tricks23:31
_abc_Yes. But is there a recipe to do that manually without reading refracta2usb source?23:32
fsmithredwould be the same if you put it on a hard drive instead of usb23:32
fsmithredyeah, I can help you with that23:32
_abc_Ok. Will keep this in mind when I get to it. The relevant computer is not in my hands now.23:32
fsmithredor maybe we can modify r2u to see the internal drives23:32
fsmithredprobably just make a small change in the hwinfo command that the script uses23:33
_abc_Oh, another: in a r2u system, after booting into the gui, thunar etc shows the "hidden" drives in the drive volume table side pane. Is there a way to hide them?23:33
fsmithredI don't know23:33
_abc_Ok.23:33
fsmithredI think that function might be broken anyway - I have my desktop set to show removable drives, and it shows the internal drives, too23:34
fsmithreddidn't do that in wheezy23:34
_abc_There should be a way to mark the drives or to set thunar to ignore the wanted drives23:35
fsmithredyeah, put them in fstab and they won't show up on the desktop or in thunar23:35
fsmithreddon't know if there's a way to put something in fstab and tell it to do nothing23:35
_abc_I tried today to move a hdd installed ascii to etc tmp var home mounted as separate partitions, that worked, but then I tried to make rootfs ro mounted and the scripts ignored my ro option on the options in fstab, mounted rootfs rw23:35
_abc_I have var etc home in the fstab and thunar showed them.23:36
fsmithredbrb23:36
fsmithredback23:38
fsmithredwhat happens if you remove thunar-volman?23:38
fsmithred(just a guess)23:38
fsmithredyou can also try copying the iso to a hard drive (on a linux formatted partition) and boot from grub23:41
fsmithredusing the findiso option23:42
fsmithredthat'll work with or without persistence23:42
_abc_Ah. Yes that is one way to try.23:44
_abc_Removing thunar-volume completely removes volume management. I need to to see usb sticks instered and cds. Eventually.23:44
_abc_I will look into this deeper.23:45
_abc_*inserted.23:45
_abc_I will work on the ideas you gave me now. ext2 fs + grub + iso image with findiso would work for sure.23:45
gnarfacei think you just need udisks2 to see usb and cds being inserted23:46
gnarfacemight require some scripting to check /dev but /dev should update right then at least23:46
_abc_I really don't know anything about that. I remember good days 20+ years ago with hotplug on slackware and automounter scripts I wrote which did everything without udev nightmares23:47
_abc_I'll learn.23:47
gnarfacehotplug still exists23:48
_abc_Close to 1AM here and I am dead tired. Am going to move towards the bed and snore a bit soon23:48
_abc_Sure hotplug exists, it's not used in the usual way anymore23:48
gnarfacei don't think anything is stopping you though23:49
_abc_gnarface: so much is automated now that if you touch one stone in the arch it all comes down23:49
gnarfaceyes, that's true.  the trick is to start at the top23:50
_abc_The top of an amoeba is...23:51
gnarfacei think starting with thunar probably was a good choice23:51
gnarfacegui userspace tools in general would be the top of this particular arch23:51
_abc_Yes. Well I could source build Thunar and then use some tricks to insert a custom filter external script call or such.23:52
gnarfaceyea, altering it to behave would be an option.  i can't help with specifics on that, i've never touched it.23:53
gnarfaceactually you should ask with their support.  maybe this is a solved problem already for people familiar with thunar.23:55
_abc_I have a doubt.23:56
_abc_But I'll ask. Ok, moving towards $bed23:56

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