freenode/#devuan/ Thursday, 2019-02-14

HurgotronShort question... which tool do I need for mobile broadband on Devuan?00:58
gnarfacetoo vague to go on00:59
HurgotronWith ubuntu, I used network-manager. wicd doesn't seem to cover it, though. Anything else? manual ppp scripts?01:00
gnarfaceoh, i think you can still use network-manager.  there was a good reason wicd is the default now but i think someone eventually fixed network-manager01:00
HurgotronAh, that might be nice. but wicd doesn't seem half bad either.01:01
gnarfacei thought you were asking about a more low-level question of hardware support.  i've personally seen mobile broadband hardware connected via bluetooth and pcmcia.  i would expect that USB cell modems are a thing too, though i've never seen one.01:02
gnarfaceand that's assuming you mean cellular networking as opposed to just 802.X wifi01:02
gnarfacesomeone might have already posted answers to this question on the forum.  it would seem unlikely for you to be the first person to run into trouble doing it with wicd.01:03
Hurgotronhardware (3G modem) is built in and seemed to be well supported with the distros I used before. It's just configuration for me.01:03
gnarfacewell i don't know for sure wicd won't work.  i don't use either of them.01:06
gnarfacethere might be some trick to it01:06
Hurgotronmaybe. But configuration options for 3g in wicd don't seem to be obvious at least.01:07
gnarfaceanother thing to check would be the firmware01:07
gnarfacei'd assume such a device requires non-free firmware from some or another vendor, and other distros would include all such non-free firmware by default but debian does not, and therefore devuan does not either.01:08
gnarfacebut if you were missing firmware it would most likely complain about it in the dmesg output somewhere01:09
ewlI'm using a light wm that doesn't have a configuration file for what to do when the laptop lid is closed. I know how to do it with systemd, and with slackware you create a "lid" file in the /etc/acpi/events/ directory, but there is no acpi directory in devuan. Does anybody know how I set up pm-suspend when the lid is closed?01:09
gnarfaceewl: are you sure acpi is installed?01:09
ewlIs it a package? Everything seems to be working.01:10
gnarfaceyea it's some packages01:11
gnarfacetry this: dpkg -l |grep acpi01:11
ewlI assumed if it were available it would have gotten installed with the main installation.01:11
gnarfaceeh, it's not strictly required, so it would depend on how you installed.01:11
gnarfaceif it is installed, you should clearly see /usr/sbin/acpid running, and at the very least a /etc/acpi directory with one script and one "events" subdir01:12
ewlDo you know if there's any other way to configure how to suspend the laptop on closing the lid without acpi?01:13
gnarfaceyes, depending on hardware support01:13
gnarfacesome brands have their own hooks in firmware with kernel support01:14
ewlWell it's always worked with other distros.01:14
gnarfacedid it work with debian?01:14
gnarfaceif it worked with debian all you have to do is compare your package list there to figure out what you're missing01:14
gnarfacebut i suspect if you run "apt-get update && apt-get install acpi" it will give you what you were missing01:15
ewlYes, but that's configured using the /etc/systemd/login..something or other file.01:15
ewlokay thanks.01:15
gnarfaceoh, no you can poke at those values by directly manipulating the /sys directory or the /proc directory too.01:15
gnarfacedepending again as i said on available hardware support01:15
gnarface(dell, thinkpads, and really old toshibas have stuff like that i think?)01:16
ewli installed acpi, still no /etc/acpi directory.01:16
gnarface(i mean, they all have it, but support for these features in some major brands leaked into linux occasionally)01:16
gnarfacehmm01:16
gnarfacesuspicious01:17
gnarfacedid it install acpid and acpi-support-base too?01:17
gnarfaceif not, also install them01:17
ewlno01:17
ewlOkay, that did it.01:18
gnarfaceok, you might still be missing stuff you expect to be present.  please run this command to see what else looks familiar so you can install it too:   apt-cache search ^acpi01:19
gnarface(the "^" is not a typo)01:19
ewlI just did apt install acpi*01:23
ewlOkay, it works. thanks.01:24
gnarfaceno problem01:25
Hurgotrongnarface: network-manager works, thanks for the hint. And in general, this page was helpful: https://friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php/devuan-network-managers-and-notes01:51
gnarfaceah, good to know, thanks Hurgotron01:51
HurgotronFWIW, I'm installing an eeePC 901 go with Devuan, and the rather old hardware is really fun again :)01:54
Jolt2boltHi!01:56
fsmithredHi, and thanks for the warm welcome!01:56
fsmithredoh, I guess you joined after I did01:56
Jolt2boltlol01:56
Jolt2boltyep01:56
Jolt2boltI came to resolve some doubt about devuan!:P01:57
fsmithredwhat doubt would that be?01:57
Jolt2boltwell about hardware compatibility and what IF I doesn't have one02:03
fsmithredone what?02:03
fsmithredcomputer?02:03
Jolt2boltI chose devuan because I want a deb based distro that usa openrc as main init...02:03
Jolt2boltis an old canaima02:04
fsmithredok, that's easy to do02:04
gnarfacehardware compatibility should be identical to Debian, Jolt2bolt.  there are differences in permissions defaults and behavior but the drivers and kernel are all the same exact things.02:04
Jolt2boltI wonder that if in case that I might be forced to, Can i add the non free repo of debian?02:04
fsmithredno, add non-free to the devuan lines02:04
gnarfacewell... completely possible, but utterly useless and harmful.02:05
fsmithreddevuan servers will pull from debian repos...02:05
gnarfaceit's not right to start that sentence with "no" technically, fsmithred.  it'll work just as well as shooting yourself in the foot works to test your weapon02:05
fsmithredand run through a filter02:05
gnarfaceJolt2bolt: he means "yes, but don't do that"02:05
Jolt2boltok02:05
fsmithredI meant no, don't add debian repos.02:06
gnarfaceright02:06
Jolt2boltbut devuan have their non free version? or something like that?02:06
gnarfaceit's all the same stuff Jolt2bolt02:06
fsmithredfor the reasons gnarface gave02:06
gnarfaceJolt2bolt: yes, the the non-free stuff from the devuan repos is all the same02:06
gnarfaceJolt2bolt:  if you put in debian urls it just confuses it02:06
Jolt2boltok, that's nice then!02:07
Jolt2boltI was worried. It's a canaima. I don't thing I might need the nonfree to make it work but just in case, I rather have it at hand02:07
Jolt2boltthink*02:07
fsmithredopenrc is not the default, but you can select it in expert install02:08
gnarfaceJolt2bolt: here, for your reference, with the exception of this list of packages, the other 50,000 or so packages from debian are all present in devuan too: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt02:08
fsmithredor add it later02:08
gnarface50,000... 100,000 whatever it is02:08
Jolt2boltI wonder if the ucode are in that list!XDD02:08
gnarfaceonly this couple dozen packages are missing02:08
brocashelmnice, i saw tecmint has articles on devuan already02:08
fsmithreducodes are not banned, they are in non-free02:09
Jolt2boltummm02:09
Jolt2boltbut what is the main init of devuan? is it not openrc? o.o'02:09
fsmithredsysvinit is the default02:09
Jolt2boltummm02:09
gnarface(it's what Debian used to use by default before jessie)02:10
fsmithredopenrc is installable and it works02:10
Jolt2boltthen is nice! I want Openrc!:D02:10
Jolt2boltat least is not that bloated as systemd but it gives almost the same benefit (easy of use)02:11
specingfsmithred: is openrc supported just as well as sysvinit (default)?02:11
brocashelmwhat about runit? thought that one was good02:11
specingI don't know, I am used to OpenRC as I use Gentoo02:11
fsmithredrunit is available, but not from the installer02:11
Jolt2boltrunit is nice but I don't have the time to learn about it either... at least not right now02:12
brocashelmeven using upstart is better than systemd (for ubuntu/mint)02:12
brocashelmsystemd has been proving to be more and more sluggish lately, which doesn't surprise me02:12
Jolt2boltI tried voidlinux and it's amazing, pretty fast and smaller than openrc02:12
brocashelmvoid is great. too bad about the main dev disappearing02:13
brocashelmthey had to clone the repo as they couldn't take over the original02:13
Jolt2boltsystemd is becoming what I predicted it would be... a plummet02:14
Jolt2boltTHe main dev appeared a while ago02:14
Jolt2bolthe took a sabatic without a notice02:14
brocashelmoh, ok02:15
Jolt2boltthe Current devs are struggling about giving it back the project to the dreator but they welcome him02:15
Jolt2boltthey preffer the project be handled by three main person like they have it right now02:16
Jolt2boltto be handled*02:16
specingpower corrupts02:16
Jolt2boltit is not for the power but the fate of the project if the main disapear again02:17
brocashelmfor the best02:17
Jolt2boltit wasn't a sruggle of power at all. It was the main dissapeared02:17
brocashelmyes, he just vanished for a while02:17
Jolt2boltaha02:17
Jolt2boltbut the coomunity is nice, the problem is that the knowledge to intall void is pretty high because it lack a LOT of the basic configuration that most distro have!:P02:19
Jolt2boltyou even have to configure the TTY!XDD02:19
specingso Gentoo level?02:20
specingor worse?02:20
Jolt2boltI think worse... at least gentoo have a pretty basic configuration...02:20
Jolt2boltIt loads the tty but the console doesn't have bash with the basic configuration, like history and so...02:21
brocashelm*cloveros02:21
brocashelmjk02:21
gnarfaceyou can just copy /etc/skel/ from devuan :-p02:21
Jolt2boltit is a REALLY basic BASH02:22
Jolt2boltnot bad, you can learn a lot that way. The problem is that it lacks the documentation like gentoo have02:22
specingJolt2bolt: you mean it is regular sh?02:22
Jolt2boltI know... use "man" but man sometimes is not easy to read and it is harder if you're not a native english speaker...02:23
specing?02:23
Jolt2boltyep, like it is come when you compile from source...02:24
specingsense making you not are02:24
Jolt2bolt(is my case... sometimes I loose in the tecnic language...)02:25
gnarfaceas a native english speaker, i can tell you that most those man pages weren't written by someone who was02:26
Jolt2bolttechnicality02:26
fsmithredsometime being a native english speaker doesn't help02:26
fsmithredto read them, I mean02:26
Jolt2bolta native speaker? is it in elven or dwarvish?02:26
fsmithredmaybe doesn't necessarily help to write them, either02:27
Jolt2boltThanks! That make me feel like smart again. I though I was pretty stupid because I couldn't understand it at all...02:27
Jolt2boltspecially the old man pages one02:28
fsmithred<-- old man who reads pages02:28
fsmithredafter 19 years, they're starting to make sense02:29
Jolt2boltI men the Manual pages that are for pretty old and basic command that seems that was written by an ancient alien civilitation or something like that02:29
Jolt2boltmean*02:29
gnarfaceJolt2bolt: you mean the shorthand notations?  check out "man man"02:30
gnarfacethey really screwed with me for a long time too02:30
gnarfaceif i had known man had a man page itself, it would have saved me literal years02:30
Jolt2boltlol02:30
gnarface(embarrassing too, that i didn't even think to look for it)02:30
Jolt2boltI particulary readthe man page of man and I understood a bit but some part it seems like a encrypted language to me if I'm honest..02:31
gnarfaceoh, also this is a small thing but if you have "less" installed, then search and navigation in man pages is a little friendlier.  you almost always will have "less" installed but it is possible to omit it from in a normal installation.02:31
gnarface(key symptoms of this are not being able to scroll back or navigate with arrow-keys, and not being able to do case-insensitive searches)02:32
gnarface(but emacs has a much nicer man page reader anyway :-p)02:33
Jolt2boltI didn't realize that less is always intalled in most distros...02:33
Jolt2boltwhat about vim?u.u02:33
gnarfacevim should be present by default, if i recall02:33
specinggnarface: far from it02:34
specingvi is, and it provided by busybox02:34
Jolt2boltlol02:34
Jolt2boltneovim?02:34
gnarfacespecing: i thought that copy of vi was just a symlink to vim.  no?02:34
specingI don't know how to use vi and I'm a vim user02:34
Jolt2boltwhat the difference between vi, vim and neovim?02:34
specinggnarface: if you install vim, sure02:34
gnarfaceoh, i didn't realize there was still non-vim vi in the distro02:35
Jolt2boltwhat's*02:35
gnarfacei thought it was always vim, and it just has different defaults depending on how it was invoked02:35
gnarfacebut obviously it's not what i'm using02:35
gnarface"less" is one of the things included in tasksel "standard system utilities" - otherwise man defaults to using "more" for the paging02:36
Jolt2boltlol, vi es different than vimmm02:36
Jolt2boltI didn't realized that until you say so..02:36
Jolt2boltthe commands are different for both..02:37
gnarfaceJolt2bolt: vim is actually a GNU fork of an ancient unix text editor that was actually part of the Posix standard02:37
gnarfacebut effort was made to use it as a drop-in replacement for vi02:37
watchcatthe man pages with good examples are the most helpful.02:38
gnarfacei agree02:38
Jolt2boltoh! so vi is a posix standart editor?02:38
gnarfaceJolt2bolt: yea, technically you couldn't call it Unix unless it comes with vi02:38
gnarface(amongst a number of other things i forget)02:39
Jolt2boltsadly, the manpages with good example are few. FOr example, I LOVE the Tint2 manpage!!02:39
Jolt2boltit is the first manpage wrote by a normal human02:39
Jolt2bolt^.^02:40
Jolt2boltgo ahead and try it...02:40
Jolt2bolttint2 is a pretty nice taskbar!:D02:40
gnarfaceeh, i don't like taskbars, but i'll keep it in mind02:41
Jolt2boltI like it for my openbox setup02:42
Jolt2boltbut I use polybar as my main!:D02:42
Xenguy.oO( nvi )02:43
XenguyJolt2bolt: An 'Examples' section should be *mandatory* for man pages02:45
XenguyAbsolutely02:45
Jolt2boltbut they naver put examples at all...02:45
Jolt2boltwe have to guess ALWAYS!!02:46
fsmithredlots of pages have examples02:46
XenguySomebody said the BSDs have more examples in their man pages?  Dunno02:46
XenguyBut some linux man pages have examples, but too few of them do02:46
gnarfacethe BSDs have better curated man pages in general across the board, but they have less stuff too, so there aren't as many targets02:47
XenguyIt's such a simple thing that makes such a difference02:47
XenguyHopefully it will catch on02:47
gnarfaceit really is, but it's not the fun part of development02:47
XenguyWell, it's true, though as my dear brother loves to opine:  'Completeness matters'02:48
Jolt2boltwhy I didn't try BSD before... I think it was their lack of support in graphic card i think02:48
Xenguy8 -D02:48
XenguyJolt2bolt: I tried OpenBSD in a VM, but hit a snag also02:48
watchcatthe simplest case, a commonly-used case, and a case or two that show non-obvious use or common mistakes would be enough.02:50
XenguyExactly02:50
Jolt2boltamen to that!02:51
XenguyCan I have an Amen?!02:51
* Xenguy thinks of The Eagles of Death Metal, or whoever they are ...02:51
watchcathallelujah brothers and sisters!02:52
Xenguyhah02:52
XenguyLike a gospel revival meeting02:52
Jolt2boltby the way? should download the desktop version or the minimal live?02:52
XenguyAnyhow, probably OT, (sorry about that Chief!)02:52
gnarfaceJolt2bolt: probably the netinstall one if you have to ask02:53
XenguyJolt2bolt: There's a netinstall02:53
Jolt2boltummm...02:53
Xenguyumma gumma02:53
gnarfacethe iso with "netinstall" and either "i386" or "amd64" in the name as appropriate for your machine02:54
watchcatnetinstall > deselect all tasksel options > add only what you want02:54
Jolt2boltI don't want to download byt the installer... to slow conection... I rather download the complete version that aoffers all the packages..02:54
Xenguyhrm02:55
gnarfaceJolt2bolt: the problem with that is it's already out of date enough you'll have to update all the packages afterwards anwyay.  so you think you're just downloading everything at once but you're actually forcing yourself to download most of it twice02:55
Jolt2boltbut if I want to use a custom install I think I need to use the netinstall, right?02:55
gnarfaceno, that's false, only the "live" installers are uncustomizable02:55
watchcatgood point, gnarface02:56
gnarfacebut there's nothing you can do with any installer that can't be changed afterwards if you're patient enough02:56
XenguyJolt2bolt: The netinstall is the best 'minimal' option, and it also offers you maximum flexibility of what you install02:56
Jolt2boltso installer iso or netinstall then, right?02:56
gnarfaceyea02:56
fsmithredif you have a fast connection, just get the netinstall02:57
XenguyYou just need to have a (wired) net connection for it to work02:57
Jolt2boltI want to install a base system in case the electricy or the intenet conection fails...02:57
fsmithredyou're better off installing from a mirror anyway02:57
Jolt2boltI don't have a fast conection at all02:57
XenguyThen netinstall for sure02:57
gnarfaceJolt2bolt: the netinstall should have enough packages on it already to complete a bootable install even without a network connection.  it just won't have much else on it.02:57
fsmithredor borrow a fast connection to get the dvd02:57
XenguyIt's as minimal as it get AFAIK02:57
Jolt2bolt2mb or 50kb ~ 120kb02:58
gnarfaceheh, everyone complaining about 2MB02:58
gnarfaceand i never thought i'd live to see network connections that fast02:58
XenguyI remember leaving my phone on all night to d/l the latest dist-upgrade...02:59
XenguyEverything since then has been gravy train :P02:59
Xenguy^^ Dialup02:59
djphgnarface: heh, how things change, yeah?03:01
Jolt2boltnet install it is then!;D03:01
gnarfaceindeed03:01
Xenguy: -)03:01
Jolt2bolt298mb... so small...03:02
Jolt2boltone hour!:P03:03
XenguyDoable, that's the way we like it03:03
Jolt2boltLOl03:09
Jolt2boltwell, I gotta go, I will leave this downloading the iso!:P03:09
Jolt2bolta nice wget -c url && shutdown -h now03:09
Jolt2boltand go to bed... googd night!;D03:10
watchcatfor the guys who have to use netinstall without network, it would be great to have generic /etc/network/interfaces and etc/apt/sources.list to just plug in later to get network up. wicd and dependencies would be nice for wifi users, too, in that case.03:11
roo^yAfter gparted didn't start for me on the live boot of Refracta, it worked 1st try with 'sudo gparted' on the full install11:37
josuahA colleague just asked me: did you know about Devuan?21:43
josuahSure! I said...21:43
josuahHe said for fun: what about moving everything to this?21:43
josuahunfortunately, even though he would be willing to, he might not be in position to take this decision.21:43
josuahWe are running VMs for our clients.  But there are things that are for infrastructure.  I'll install one more VM for mail-related stuff (filtering & co.)21:45
josuahso I'll sneakily put devuan on it and nobody will notice ^_^21:45
sixwheeledbeastUnless there are systemd services written noone would notice.22:32
josuahsixwheeledbeast: usually whaterver comes by default is what we use, so that'd work.22:36

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