freenode/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-02-16

brocashelmYES! i got beowulf repos switched03:14
brocashelmi followed this tutorial: now i'm on kernel 4.1903:15
golinuxbrocashelm: congrats!03:22
brocashelmthank you!03:22
brocashelmjust need to fine-tune it some more03:23
brocashelmits previous distro (mint 18.3 xfce) used about 300 mb on idle, but devuan so far is using 500 mb on idle (even though i unchecked useless services at startup). i also have problems getting the mouse to automatically be fast and responsive like it used to be. having problems with xfce-dusk-gtk3 because whiskermenu (for example) looks crappy, and that's really my preferred dark theme for xfce (adwaita has a good one, too, though). i'm also hoping i can03:25
brocashelmalso, if i can find a way to have eth0 stop auto-connecting aggressively via network-manager and let it wait before i choose to connect, that would be excellent03:27
fsmithredxfce doesn't normally use that much04:02
gnarfaceyea that's a puzzle to me too, i wonder if the difference could be kernel related, or if there's a compositor present or something else that wasn't there before04:02
brocashelmya, it's really pissing me off04:03
fsmithredbrocashelm, did you migrate mint to devuan, or did you do a fresh install?04:03
brocashelmfresh install04:04
gnarfaceupgraded from ascii, right?04:04
gnarfaceor is this from one of those test installers?04:04
brocashelm ascii04:04
brocashelmi followed that thread's instructions above04:04
gnarfacethe first thing i would check is to see what all drivers it's loading that didn't exist in that kernel mint was using (4.4?)04:05
fsmithredyeah, that should work04:05
fsmithredyou don't need to pin all the packages listed there04:05
gnarfacethe second thing i would check is to see what else xfce is launching that you might not have been aware was installed04:05
fsmithrednew policykit in beowulf works04:05
fsmithredSession and Startup04:06
brocashelmi removed things like evolution-calendar04:06
gnarfacethe third thing i would check is to make sure it's not just different caching behavior, or a side-effect of forgetting the consequences of omitting a swap partition while being low on ram, or something like that....04:06
fsmithredApplication Autostart04:06
brocashelmthe latest kernel i used with mint was 4.15.4304:06
brocashelmi don't use swap (file or partition) anymore04:06
gnarfacedid you on mint though?  that extra data has to go somewhere04:07
brocashelmnot at all04:08
fsmithredrun ps_mem.py04:08
brocashelmanother issue is that just by removing slim, i'm not authorized to do things like mount/umount drives or connect to the internet (via nm)04:09
gnarfacethat's expected behavior04:09
brocashelmwell, i want graphical greeters gone and just load up xfce via .xinitrc04:10
brocashelmthis was not a problem on ubuntu mint04:10
gnarfacemint was using systemd?04:10
brocashelmalthough i switched the init to upstart04:11
brocashelmtried whatever i could to switch some packages to systemd-purified versions, but failed as things like udisks2 and gvfs were complaining04:11
brocashelmas well as policykit-104:11
fsmithredcheck if elogind and libpam-elogind are installed04:11
gnarfacebrocashelm: there's a few ways to skin this cat04:12
brocashelmboth are installed04:12
fsmithredok, now that I think about it, those won't give you the powers you seek, but do allow you to run X without a display manager04:13
gnarfacethere is the sudo/su/gksu approach, or you could launch Xorg as suid root, or you could just add yourself to the right groups04:14
gnarfacethere's probably a couple other methods i'm forgetting too04:14
fsmithredfor window manager only, I set up sudo for shutdown/reboot and use pmount for removable drives04:14
fsmithredsometimes sudo for network, too, but I don't need to use that much04:15
gnarfacei use su for mounts but groups for most the other stuff04:15
gnarfacebut i had already learned to do it that way before there were any other options04:16
fsmithredoh yeah, no gksu in beowulf. We're supposed to use pkexec instead.04:22
golinuxYeah. gksu is deprecated04:39
va7lnxis webmin dead? or is there a better tool for administering samba using a web browser?05:08
gnarfacei don't think debian supports it05:16
gnarfacethere are packages out there but they kinda run roughshod on your system05:16
gnarfaceif you're gonna install that, i recommend you make a backup of your system first05:19
gnarfacemaybe it's also dead now, i don't know, but the thing about it not being in debian is old news05:20
va7lnxgnarface: well, it's a new system so I don't care much05:35
va7lnxi really only want to manage samba05:39
va7lnxmaybe I could use "swat" instead05:39
DroidusHi , just sucessfully installed devuan x86 on three Compaq Evo n610c (Pentium 4 , 750 ram) peformance equals the lubuntu bionic install on equal machines.12:32
DroidusLubuntu newst version needs 1 gig, also using qt.12:33
xcmAnd I thought my T2130 was old16:36
zalewskikill -9 pulseaudio17:08
_abc_Hi. I have a cp -adr problem on ascii. Copied a large ~10GB tree ($HOME) to backup as above, then diff -rb on the 2 yielded differences and diff got stuck, there are circular links.17:29
_abc_Then I did find ./ -fprtinf $here '%p %s\n' on each, which ran in 3 secs or so17:29
_abc_Then I sorted the 2 outputs and then I ran diff on the sorted outputs.17:30
_abc_Result: the directory sizes were different. Some were larger, some were smaller. The smaller one were explained by someone in #bash who said dirs grow in size when things are added to them but never shrink. The increases in size are unexplainable.17:30
_abc_Question: should I worry? Any kind of backup or forensic copy would go ape$it from such behavior.17:31
_abc_Should I worry? (I worry, the people on #bash told me not to - so I worry more)17:31
KatolaZ_abc_: are you using different filesystems on the two partitions?17:34
fsmithredKatolaZ, you here?18:29
fsmithredor parazyd18:29
KatolaZfsmithred: ?18:31
KatolaZonly briefly18:31
fsmithredI want to push changes to live-sdk18:33
fsmithredand I want to make sure I'm doing it right before I do it18:33
fsmithredI wanted to change the name of my blend and update it so it's accurate18:33
fsmithreddeleted the devuan-live dir and made devuan-desktop-live18:33
fsmithredorganized like the minimal live with separate dir for the release18:34
fsmithredtested it and it works18:34
fsmithredgit status shows me all the files I deleted and just the directory I created (not the files)18:34
fsmithredcan I just git add -A, git commit -a and then push?18:34
fsmithredKatolaZ, ^^^18:35
_abc_KatolaZ: the 2 partitions are ext218:36
_abc_Hi fsmithred. I don't know anything about git. Git is rumored to have too many options.18:37
fsmithredI know a little18:38
fsmithredand I can't argue against you on that point18:38
furrywolfI've failed to figure out git too.18:38
_abc_I think you're at reply #3 in cartoon #1 now18:39
fsmithredyeah, reading the first one, I see that I do know git!18:40
furrywolfI spent more time fighting with git when I was fixing alsa-lib bugs than I did fixing bugs.18:42
furrywolfgit's incredible unfriendlyness makes me think it reduces community involvement in fixing bugs.  heh.18:44
furrywolfat no point did I understand why any of the directions I found online would do something, or why git did what other thing it did instead.18:44
KatolaZfsmithred: did you add the new folder?18:49
fsmithredno git add yet18:49
fsmithredI have to do that first and then the files?18:49
KatolaZdid you already moved the folder?18:49
fsmithredyeah, I moved the original18:50
KatolaZgit mv?18:50
KatolaZyou need to use git mv18:50
KatolaZso that the history is preserved18:50
fsmithredah, ok18:50
fsmithredI can move it outside the repo with git mv?18:50
KatolaZwell no18:50
KatolaZif you want to rename FOLDER_OLD into FOLDER_NEW18:51
KatolaZjust do18:51
KatolaZgit mv FOLDER_OLD FOLDER_NEW18:51
fsmithredand then I can replace the files?18:51
KatolaZno need18:51
KatolaZI mean, you will have the folder in place18:51
KatolaZwhat do you mean by replace the files?18:51
fsmithredyeah, I'm not going to edit the files that are there, easier to replace them. Some just get deleted.18:52
KatolaZafter you do `git mv` you will see with `git status` that git did the intended thing18:58
KatolaZ(it deleted the previous stuff and added the "new")18:59
fsmithredI got a big list of renamed files (new path)18:59
fsmithreddo I have to do git rm on each file, or can I just rm them and then git add -A?19:00
KatolaZyou must `git rm` if you want them to be removed from the repo19:01
fsmithredlooks like I need to add and commit before I can do other stuff19:01
KatolaZyou need to commit19:02
fsmithredit's also telling me that I need to add sdk because I modified it19:03
fsmithredbut it's not a new file19:03
fsmithred(I just changed the name in the blend map)19:03
_abc_ #2. seems to address what you want? Unless I misread? /me knows how to git clone * and then rm -rf and repeat19:06
fsmithredI'm getting there...19:07
_abc_Git + spaghetti = spagitty ;; +10 points /me likes19:07
_abc_from link above19:07
furrywolf500 error on that url.  :(19:08
furrywolfworked the second try.19:08
_abc_ maybe so?19:08
_abc_Deleted tracking cookie19:08
_abc_Is linus still involved with git development or is this like linux, he dropped the load on the world and moved on? :)19:14
* _abc_ will never forgive him for letting systemd into the house19:14
_abc_Haha. Reading headlines: Germany's Saxonia state has decided to move government over from Linux back to Windows. And now they are getting sued for trying to do that.19:26
fsmithredKatolaZ, I'm not allowed to push code to this project.19:40
xrogaan_abc_: near Denmark20:35
xrogaanwell, south of berlin.20:36
xrogaanwow, I was totally wrong. I need to review my geography :P20:37
xrogaanI was refering to
_abc_South-Eastish of Berlin :)20:38
_abc_Well Westish in fact20:39
xrogaanBut the modern Saxony is on the east side of Germany, bordering the Czech republic.20:39
_abc_ nyet20:39
xrogaanThat's Saxony-Anhalt, you also have Saxony (free state of):
_abc_Oh yes Sachsen is South of Berlin, S-Anhalt is the other one20:40
_abc_I think the Linux debacle is in Sachen20:40
_abc_Err the ex DDR states were Sacshen Sachsen-Anhalt Brandenbug Berlin and err the northern one I always forget with Rostock in it20:41
_abc_Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. And that's why I don't remember it. Can't :)20:42
_abc_And Thuringia I think. Now I crave a Thuringian Weisswurst.20:42
_abc_This is way off topic.20:42
xrogaanI can't find any recent news about the linux desktop and saxony20:43
_abc_It's too recent. It's in in German20:43
_abc_It's not the desktop it's the tax authority/IRS.20:43
* furrywolf doesn't know much about germany20:43
furrywolfsomehow having several Eisbrecher albums on my playlist hasn't improved my knowledge of german one bit.  :)20:44
xrogaanGermany is what remains of the HRE, if I recall correctly.20:45
_abc_And it's in Niedersachsen which is again another state20:45
_abc_ this is the article in German20:45
xrogaanwho's suing them?20:46
_abc_Google translate is the only option for now :) I read German, I read it.20:46
_abc_ this is about the lawsuit20:47
_abc_Axel Braun, CEO of the company Axxite is suing.20:48
fsmithredhow does he have standing?20:48
_abc_Hm? It says the lawsuit is half gag. But he is a taxpayer and he can sue.20:49
_abc_Interestingly, he's in another state.20:51
_abc_No Germans here to explain better? DocScrutinizer05 ?20:51
fsmithredwhat I'm reading says he's filing criminal charges, not suing.20:51
_abc_Yes for sabotage and breaching GDPR/data protection law and such20:51
furrywolfspeaking of google translate, someone in another channel I'm in was having great fun translating various ascii faces...  for example, it translates "owo uwu" to "cheapest", "owo uwu owo" to "human trafficking", and other utterly random things.  :)20:52
_abc_furrywolf: those characters probably mean something in a language or several. African probably? Or Asian.20:52
_abc_It's like Perl. Every character does something, including punctuation.20:53
_abc_(but Python leads there - significant whitespace!)20:53
xrogaanor actual criminals uses google translate to talk to each others.20:55
xrogaanThe translation being user based and all.20:56
furrywolfthe things it translates to get incredibly random20:58
furrywolf"owo uwu uwu uwu owo uwu owo owo" => "fishing unemployment rates for people", owo uwu uwu uwu owo owo owo owo" => "a low cost car hire", etc.  :)20:59
furrywolf"owo uwu uwu uwu owo owo owo owo uwu owo owo uwu uwu owo owo owo uwu uwu owo owo" => "No local traveler's duty is to hire a person who is a legitimate traveler"21:00
furrywolfeventually it starts turning into complete paragraphs.  :P21:00
xrogaanIgbo, people from Nigeria.21:05
furrywolfwho either have a language where faces and animal sounds translate into complex sentences, or who have a language that breaks google translate.  :)21:05
_abc_There's Ningbo from China I think21:05
DonkeyHoteithere are many internet memes about google translation from somali21:07
_abc_There's this click and whistle based North African language. I wonder how google translate would fare with that.21:10
DonkeyHoteibeing bilingual, it never ceased to amaze me just how badly google translate handled _english_21:10
_abc_Well a lot of people only speak their local regional incomprehensible accent and the same thing much louder when asked "ey?"21:11
furrywolfyou could just paste the input and the output, not the url, you know.  :P21:22
furrywolfLOL, if you take that exact string, and add "!!!!!" to the end of it, it changes to "A person who is a victim of a lack of adequate accessibility to a person who is a legitimate person does not have the right to live in a state of emergency .!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"21:24
furrywolfevery excalamation mark you add entirely changes the translation21:25
DonkeyHoteiwhat you are seeing is google translate's complete inability to parse natural language21:26
MinceRwhat we're dealing with here is a total lack of respect for the law21:26
furrywolf....  LOL.  adding "!!!!!!!" to that same string gives you...  "hijackers hijackers hijackers hijackers hijackers hijackers hippopotamus hippopotamus hippopotamus hippopotamus hippopotamus pecunia pecunia pecunia pecunia pecunia pecunia pecunia pecunia facilius !!!!!!!"  I bet you cold make a meme out of that...21:26
DonkeyHoteiit's not especially better if you tell it to translate actual correct english into something else you speak21:26
furrywolfMinceR:  stop making me waste time.  :P21:27
* furrywolf goes back to figuring out clearances around breaker panels per nec 110.2621:27
_abc_Sounds like google translate talked a bit to those ai programs they got to talk to each other to see how they would communicate.21:29
_abc_They had to stop it since they evolved a language just like that, just some letters which kept growing or repeating. Very efficient.21:29
_abc_The researchers got exactly what they asked, just did not like the result.21:29
MinceRThen the customer exclaimed with a snarl and a taunt,21:30
MinceR"It's just what we asked for, but not what we want!"21:30
_abc_Real life memories.21:30
furrywolfI like how even the slightest punctuation change changes the _entire_ translation.21:31
_abc_The ai's who made up the funny language I alluded to worked like that. It was very efficient since it was a huffman tree index code.21:32
furrywolfI just got "cashier? A lawyer is a member of the National Assembly of the United States of America." from that same string.21:32
_abc_Of course every change changes the meaning, that is the point.21:32
DonkeyHoteifurrywolf: in some languages, that really happens21:32
_abc_furrywolf: that is falling off the rails fast.21:32
furrywolf" A fishing boat can not be leaked enough for a traveler to stay awake."21:33
furrywolfsame string.21:33
DonkeyHoteianyway, i suspect that at some point there will be a request to take this convo to #debianfork21:33
_abc_Soon soon.21:33
_abc_furrywolf: now try the reverse: feed it the output it gave. This is an important translation machine test.21:34
_abc_I am not even half kidding21:34
furrywolf"owo owo uwu uwu owo owo uwu uwu uwu owo awwoooooo?" => "The unemployed traveler is not allowed to travel to the beach" => "A naghị ekwe ka onye njem na-enweghị ọrụ gaa njem n'ụsọ osimiri" => "An unemployed traveler is not allowed to travel on the beach" => "Enweghị onye njem na-enweghị ọrụ ịga njem n'ụsọ osimiri" => "No traveler traveling on the beach" => "Enweghị onye njem na-agagharị n'ụsọ osimiri" => "No traveler tr21:37
golinuxWhat does any of this have to do with Devuan support?  Please take it to #debianfotk to keep the loges manageable.21:39
hijackhi guys21:40
hijackis libsystemd0 removed yet?21:40
furrywolfhrmm, no abc over there...21:41
golinuxhijack:  No. Please read
xrogaanlibsystemd0 is required by quite a bit of softwares now21:55
hijackyeah thanks21:55
golinuxfurrywolf: Thanks for moving the chat.21:56
golinuxxrogaan: Please read the link I just posted21:56
_abc_What's in libsystemd0 ? I would like to know how long it takes to replace it with safe stubs...21:56
hijacki think you can do that right now actually21:56
hijackthe only thing that is in it systemd socket activation, probably21:57
golinuxThe current file is harmless according to those who know better than I21:57
golinuxhijack: If you want to do that talk to the dev team.  Tehy don't have time for cosmetic work.21:58
xrogaangolinux: I know, 'just saying the lib is required by quite a lot of software now. How does it deviate from the link you posted?21:58
hijacki mean xrogaan can replace it himself21:58
* _abc_ is unable to find a systemd.h file that is coherent.21:58
golinuxIt doesn't if you understand that it doesn't actually do anything.21:58
xrogaanreplace what?21:58
_abc_locate libsystemd0. -> nada21:59
_abc_So it would be provided as an empty dependency?21:59
golinuxIt is just more trouble than it is worth to repackage several hundred packages to reomve something that does noting22:00
xrogaanthat's silly.22:00
* golinux actually has work to do22:00
xrogaan$ ldd mb_warband_linux |grep systemd >> => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/
hijacki wonder why22:01
hijacki guess it might try to check for some services or something?22:01
xrogaanthe list is quite huge though
xrogaanI'd assume they're trying to be available on a wide range of systems?22:04
xrogaanisn't systemd is a networkmanager too?22:05
MinceR16 215844 < golinux> It doesn't if you understand that it doesn't actually do anything.22:05
MinceRfor now.22:05
MinceRand updates come from debian at rh/ibm's behest which could change that22:06
hijackit has networkd but its optional22:06
hijackand only intended for wired connections, for what its worth22:06
hijackalso had a remote code execution vuln recently i think22:06
golinuxMinceR: We'll deal with it if/when it becomes a problem.22:07
hijackthough i dont think any distro uses it by default22:07
MinceRgolinux: there will be a significant delay before it will be noticed.22:07
golinuxMinceR: Well you could volunteer to monitor it and sound the alarm.  Or start repackaging . . .22:08
MinceRi could, but i have various issues that hold me back22:09
golinuxWe don't have the (wo)man power to do that.22:09
hijackyeah same22:09
golinuxWell, there you have it.22:10
golinuxEither fix it or live with it22:10
MinceRi workaround it for now22:10
golinuxHow does that help Devuan?22:10
golinuxOh, it doesn't . . .22:11
_abc_Wait, a GAME is pulling in systemd deps? mb_warband_linux ?!22:15
_abc_What the. We are doomed. Next they'll link nethack against systemd. What IS in that thing. Still have not found a header file.22:16
_abc_haha. Looked up systemd on alis, there is #systemd. Topic is proud: released version 241. Two hundred forty one.22:17
_abc_We need spies to lurk in #systemd22:19
xrogaan_abc_: #debianfork22:20
xrogaanbecause this is becoming off-topic :P22:22
_abc_Can anyone please tell, in a devuan context, what functions does provide? And where are it's headers? Other than in systemd git?22:24
_abc_The src debs for ascii are where on devuan servers? Or not at all on devuan servers?22:24
_abc_xrogaan: I agree it is somewhat off topic but you made me curious, now I need to know what's in that box.22:25
MinceRit provides a bunch of functions which allegedly detect whether systemd is running and return doing nothing if it isn't22:25
_abc_Ah. And why would a game need to know about systemd?22:25
hijackwho knows22:26
MinceRbecause everything must depend on systemd22:26
_abc_Well if a game would prepare to take over the system by privilege escalation it would need to know that imo.22:26
MinceRnobody should be allowed to miss out on the nsa backdoor22:26
hijackmaybe a steam lib depends on it22:26
MinceRit can do some damage even as your own user22:26
_abc_At some game motivational screen there will be a button unlocked by having 999 pink crystals collected marked "click take over system using systemd"22:27
xrogaanIt's not steam.22:28
xrogaanSteam has it's own api and its own runtime.22:28
_abc_ascii relevant libsystemd0 is at v 232
xrogaanwouldn't apt-get source libsystemd0 give you the said sources?22:29
_abc_It would but I just want to see the whole picture now.22:29
xrogaanYou could try asking taleworlds, or reverse engineer the binary.22:30
_abc_4.3MB .xz src is a bit much for just some functions which look inside it.22:30
xrogaanThere is more than just the libsystemd in there.22:31
_abc_lol the package has a dir called doc which has 2 README files, 1172 and 1046 bytes in size each22:31
_abc_That's it folks. The real docs are the source. Not in the source, the source.22:32
r3boot.. except .. who actually reads sourcecode ... ;)22:32
_abc_I do.22:32
DonkeyHoteii used to22:32
_abc_It's worth browsing that packages just as a memento as to why we really do not want that. It has a complete hw device database in it, duplicating the one used by dbus/etc22:33
_abc_under hwdb22:33
_abc_I meant udev22:34
r3bootglad you have the time to actually do that. I bet it can consume a lifetime reading up about all the code you're running on a daily basis22:34
r3boot(and keeping up with changes, etc)22:34
_abc_yes, but I do not read everything. Just interesting bits. I've re'd some things to improve them before. See
_abc_keeping up with changes will be interesting. version 241!22:35
_abc_the systemd really handles everything. There's src/backlight/backlight.c 15.5kbytes. Wow!22:35
r3bootYou're talking about btw ?22:37
_abc_Probably. Insane.22:37
_abc_efi boot hooks too22:37
_abc_Did Linus allow the systemd people into the kernel or not?22:37
r3bootdid you actually read what it does?22:37
_abc_I just glazed over when I saw the file size.22:38
specinghe did not22:38
r3boot_abc_: it's a service which saves/restores the backlight values which you define, the linux way, under /sys22:38
_abc_why would a function called find?pci?or?platform?parent() live in backlight.c? Would it not be shared across several utils?...22:39
r3bootdepends, what does it do? Can you explain it in your own words?22:40
_abc_Just reading that makes me sick. So a generic system resource walking function is in a specific device related file and not shared, and then it is hard coded used just below in validate_device which is again probably a generic function which should be parametrized and shared.22:40
_abc_validate_device walks down a the udev tree and checks against devices called "backlight"22:41
golinuxPlease take systemd-reloated discussion to #debian-fork22:41
_abc_Right golinux you are right.22:41
golinuxThis is a support channel.  Thanks22:42
xrogaan(it's #debianfork ; mind the typo if you're trying to join ;))22:44
_abc_ /join #devuan-defocus with me to continue this "fun"22:47
DonkeyHotei_abc_: the channel is #debianfork22:48
_abc_I am on #devuan-defocus now22:49
_abc_alone for now22:49
DonkeyHoteihorse: water.22:50
golinuxOops sorry for the typo22:50
xrogaan_abc_: are you being obtuse on purpose?22:51
_abc_What do you mean?22:51
xrogaanwe keep telling you to join #debianfork22:52
_abc_I noticed.22:52
xrogaanI know.22:52
DonkeyHoteixrogaan: like people keep saying to use systemd? :D22:53

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