freenode/#devuan/ Sunday, 2019-03-10

golinuxUnfortunately most of the infra team who could fix it are probably zzzzzzzing00:04
Wasphey, can anybody give me a hint what I'm supposed with apt "The following packages cannot be authenticated". Almost every source, also recent sources, tell me to do `apt-key update` but apt-key tells is me depricated but gives no hint what to do instant...01:52
gnarfaceWasp: catch 2201:54
gnarfacekey expired01:54
gnarfaceneeds good key to get updated key package01:55
gnarfacethere's a number of reasons this could have happend, but normally it should not happen after your first install01:55
Waspgnarface: sorry, what do you mean by catch 22?01:55
gnarfacehmm.  are you familiar with something called a "chicken and egg problem?"01:55
Waspgnarface: nah, have it running for a while01:56
Waspso what is the "correct" way to solve it?01:56
gnarfacemanually get the updated key package first01:56
gnarface(or just feed the contents of the key to apt-key directly like it's asking)01:57
WaspI also checked apt-key list but there is no expired key01:57
gnarfaceare you still on jessie?01:57
Waspguess so01:57
gnarfacethere was an issue i remember about this01:57
Wasp/etc/*version* says "9 ascii"01:57
gnarfaceit had happend to me too, but it should have been resolved long ago...01:58
gnarfacewhat's the contents of your /etc/apt/sources.list file?01:58
gnarfacemaybe you're using outdated urls01:58
gnarfacethey changed auto.mirror.devuan.org to deb.devuan.org but there are still cached DNS entries for the old one floating around pointing to outdated repos01:58
WaspI don't know, was trying to check as well but no clue how (also cannot reach devuan.org)01:58
gnarfaceoh, the website is down right now, that has been noticed this afternoon01:59
gnarfaceunfortunately it's the middle of the night for everyone who can do something about that right now01:59
Waspah okay :) Greetings from central europe too ;)01:59
gnarfacehere, start with this, copy and paste the contents of your /etc/apt/sources.list file to paste.debian.net02:00
WaspI can confirm, yeah middle of the nighth here ;)02:00
gnarfacei can proofread your sources.list so at least we can be sure that one is correct02:00
gnarfaceor if you're too paranoid for that, just make a backup of the file and put this in it's place: http://paste.debian.net/1072523/02:01
gnarface(make sure you're really on ascii first)02:01
Waspgrrrr "Invalid format for name (no special chars, max 10 chars)" -- always a good idea to empty all input fields02:01
gnarfaceyikes, i can't imagine why you'd have any special characters in there...02:02
KatolaZWasp: wazzup?02:02
Waspand max 10 chars funny paste site02:02
KatolaZWasp: will be here just for a couple of minutes...02:03
Wasphttp://paste.debian.net/1072524/02:03
gnarfacelooks right at first glance02:04
WaspKatolaZ: sorry don't know who you are but having issues to update packages and possible the whole system02:04
Waspbecause of "The following packages cannot be authenticated"02:04
KatolaZWasp: can you please post the whole output you get?02:05
KatolaZ(on a pastebin not here)02:05
Waspapt-key list doesn't show any expired keys02:05
Waspsure02:05
gnarfaceWasp: i had an issue a while back where the key from the package didn't actually make it to apt-key for some reason... i forget why exactly but i thought this was a problem that later got fixed.  it's possible you could run into it still though if you had not updated since before that....02:06
WaspKatolaZ: https://nopaste.xyz/?a97ba2e6625dc912#futX+bIqwYK6Wa3ehmbrYd97VIGrREG9Zn2Khf55C34=02:07
KatolaZWasp: are you mixing repos?02:07
Waspwhat you mean? I have fish and vivaldi as an extra repo02:08
KatolaZare you sure you don't have what was called "debian-multimedia.org"?02:08
gnarfacehmmm....02:08
gnarfaceKatolaZ: (it's deb-multimedia.org now)02:08
KatolaZyep02:08
Waspyeah maybe i have02:08
fsmithredapt-get install devuan-keyring02:09
KatolaZWasp: that's the reason02:09
KatolaZnono02:09
KatolaZwait fsmithred02:09
Wasp> cat /etc/apt/sources.list.d/deb-multimedia.list                                                                     ⑂ 56d277002:09
Waspdeb http://www.deb-multimedia.org stretch main non-free02:09
KatolaZplease remove deb-multibedia02:09
KatolaZthe repo has nothing to do with debian/devua02:09
KatolaZ~devuan02:09
KatolaZjust remove it02:09
KatolaZthen apt-get update02:09
KatolaZand apt-get upgrade02:09
KatolaZdeb-multimedia is not needed since wheezy, at least02:09
KatolaZsince all the packages that used to be there have been imported in Debian02:09
KatolaZby the debian-multimedia team02:10
KatolaZWasp: ^^^02:10
Waspokay, but even though i cannot remember way, but I'm sure I added it for a reason02:10
KatolaZWasp: trust me, there is no reason02:10
se7enI am unable to run apt-update nor fetch packages. Apt reports it is fetching from the IP 46.105.191.7702:10
se7enIs the server down now?02:10
se7enIt is the packages.devuan.org url02:11
KatolaZse7en: please use deb.devuan.org02:11
KatolaZwe currently have issues on some of the domains02:11
KatolaZincluding packages.devuan.org02:11
se7enOk02:11
fsmithredI would say it's working - I'm running live-sdk right now and it's installing packages02:11
WaspKatolaZ: I grant you that you know better maybet but at least I'm sure I've added it because I've (maybe just thought) needed something from there02:11
se7enI have not heard of that url, is that a perment thing or will I have to change it back02:11
KatolaZWasp: if it was libdvdcss, it's not needed any more02:12
KatolaZthere is a replacement02:12
WaspKatolaZ: right!02:12
gnarfaceWasp: i have a guess as to why you added it.  i note you've enabled non-free there, and for one of your commented out security updates lines in the sources.list, so probably you were looking for something like faac and made a mistake in your sources.list to confirm the erroneous assumption that it was only available in deb-multimedia02:12
KatolaZse7en: it has been a permament thing since at least one year ago02:12
WaspI remeber I needed libdvdcss because I couldn't find it in the regular repo02:12
gnarfaceWasp: yea, when you do that though, ONLY install libdvdcss from whatever repo, then immediately remove that repo02:13
gnarfaceWasp: (i think you should probably be getting libdvdcss2 from videolan.org's repo anyway)02:13
KatolaZWasp: there is no need for it any more02:13
se7enOk, thank you KatolaZ02:14
se7enBtw, has there been any new updates to setnet?02:14
KatolaZWasp: https://wiki.debian.org/CDDVD#Video_DVD02:15
KatolaZyou can use libdvdread4 instead02:15
gnarfacehmm. i had an issue where that didn't work in some cases, and i still needed libdvdcss2, but i can't remember the exact cause of the issue.02:16
KatolaZWasp: alternatively, you can install libdvd-pkg02:16
KatolaZit will build libdvdcss2 for you from the repo02:16
KatolaZyeah gnarface you are right02:18
KatolaZsome dvds are encrypted with CSS02:18
KatolaZthose need libdvdscc202:18
KatolaZ~libdvdcss202:18
KatolaZthe clean way is to install libdvd-pkg from contrib02:18
KatolaZit will download the tagged sources from upstream, build the deb package, and install it02:19
KatolaZI gotta go02:19
KatolaZbbl02:19
KatolaZo/02:19
se7enwait, KatolaZ02:20
se7enmy question on setnet02:20
KatolaZwhat?02:20
KatolaZse7en: which version are you using?02:20
KatolaZthe latest available in the repos should be 0.4 IIRC02:21
* Wasp is up-to-date with apt-packages again02:21
WaspKatolaZ: thank you02:22
KatolaZWasp: yw02:22
Waspgnarface: thank you too ;)02:22
gnarfaceno problem02:22
Waspwhat is the propper way to update the system/kernel?02:23
Wasprefering to wikiepdia 4.9 is a little outdated02:23
se7en0.4, KatolaZ02:23
gnarfaceWasp: if you install the "linux-image-amd64" or "linux-image-i386" package (as appropriate for your computer's architecture) then you'll get the updated kernel packages along with everything else02:23
se7enI am not using repo cersion02:24
se7enGlad to see it's in there now02:24
KatolaZWasp: you have 4.19 in ascii-backports02:24
KatolaZse7en: no new release02:24
KatolaZI have made some improvements but not released them yet02:24
KatolaZI hopw I will have time for that :)02:24
gnarfaceWasp: (same rule applies for linux-headers-amd64/linux-headers-i386)02:25
KatolaZgotta go, really02:25
KatolaZo/02:25
Waspbye KatolaZ02:26
gnarfaceWasp: oh, sorry, overlooked the part about 4.9 being too old.  yea, you'll want to grab the newer one from ascii-backports02:26
gnarfaceif you're using nvidia drivers, you'll want to get them from there too along with it02:26
gnarfaceor if you're using intel/amd graphics, you'll want to get mesa from there02:27
gnarfacecertain generations of things work better when they're paired together02:27
Waspnever managed to install nvidia here .. couldn't never get rid of f*** nouveau02:27
gnarfaceoh, that's super easy but should have happened automatically if you didn't use the shell script installer from nvidia.com02:28
gnarfacethe trick is to blacklist nouveau in /etc/modprobe.d02:28
Waspdon't know anymore, gave up long time ago and just accepted that my machine freezes up randomly from time to time02:28
gnarfacewell, the official drivers might not fix that, but chances are you ran into an easily preventable problem02:29
Waspdon't have this problem with windows nor with freebsd though02:30
gnarfaceyou'd literally just have to have the official drivers successfully installed, and add "blacklist nouveau" to a file with the extension ".conf" in /etc/modprobe.d02:30
gnarfacebsd and windows both have commercial-level support contracts with NVidia02:30
gnarfaceso they're not a fair comparison02:30
Waspwhat else should I copare it to though? plan9? ;)02:31
gnarfaceheh02:31
gnarfacewell the point is someone is paying NVidia to make it work for those two platforms, whereas they've been browbeaten to supporting Linux on their own dime via public outrage.  a fact which is clearly represented in the quality of support02:32
Waspbut supprised to hear that freebsd is paying nvidia02:33
Waspnever heard before. Do you have any source for that? It's kinda supprising to me since freebsd is also a free OS02:34
gnarfacenvidia wouldn't support them at all, so i guess some people over there just purchased a license.  it's something i heard from multiple people but i guess i don't have a link02:34
WaspI always just assumed somebody at nvidia likes freebsd02:35
WaspI mean they also provide drivers for linux02:35
gnarfaceheh, no.  those assholes hate everything open source stands for.02:35
gnarfacebut they'll take any money that's green.02:35
gnarfacethe demand for Linux support is partially justified to them by some high-end computing cluster hardware contracts02:35
WaspI get your point but -- at least at the beginning -- I would wonder that microsoft payed them to provide drivers02:36
gnarfacei wonder that too, but it's probably some percentage of global sales revenue02:36
gnarfaceso it's probably a really shockingly high number02:37
gnarfaceanyway, this is kinda OT stuff.  we should rant about nvidia in #debianfork instead02:37
Wasphaha02:37
Waspto be fair I like nvidia mostly ;)02:37
Waspthere are two things I accept to be proprietary, and one is nvidia02:39
gnarfaceis that one of those optimus dual-gpu laptops you've got there?02:44
Waspno laptop at all. Just a classic desktop02:44
gnarfaceis the gpu a 600 series or later?02:45
Wasplater02:45
gnarfaceyou should be able to get the nvidia drivers in the repo working02:45
Waspit's still in the 1000 generation .. i mean _still_, not again ;)02:45
Wasp8800 or 8600 don't recal atm02:46
gnarfaceOH02:46
Wasphave both02:46
gnarfaceso that's actually older than the GTX 60002:46
WaspI guess so ;)02:46
gnarface6**02:46
gnarfaceok nevermind then02:46
gnarfacethe current official nvidia drivers already deprecated those cards anyway02:46
gnarfaceyou're stuck with nouveau02:46
gnarface(or the official "legacy" drivers, which are pretty much useless now)02:47
Waspin summer they rip themself appart so have actually 3 of them and repair the other two from time to time02:47
Waspwhy is it useless?02:47
gnarfacenot currently updated, so it won't work with anything still compatible with the rest of the distro02:48
gnarfacewell, maybe glxgears or stuff like that02:48
gnarfacebut not stuff that matters02:48
gnarfacenot stuff nouveau can't do now anyway02:48
Waspwhat does matter? ;)02:48
gnarfacehardware opengl acceleration02:48
Waspnouveau can freeze the system02:48
Waspbut that's nothing I like to see02:49
gnarfaceyea, it can, but there might be a workaround02:49
Waspcurrent work arround is moving from vivaldi to opera (again) since it's happening much less though02:49
Waspsomehow related to youtube02:49
gnarfacehmmm, interesting02:49
Waspsomething*02:49
gnarfaceif that's a reproducible bug, you should see if that's something they know about in #nouveau02:50
WaspI thought nouveau is dead .. or at least going to be dead. Cannot remember details but just read that they're ^(tm)^ planning to remove it from somewhere ^(tm)^02:51
gnarfacei don't know about that, but their progress has definitely been halted for newer cards02:52
Waspsorry, just stupid hear-saying with not even recalling the propper context :(02:52
gnarfaceand they'll tell you themselves not to hold your breath on it ever working right02:52
gnarfacethey'll recommend AMD cards across the board02:52
Wasphaha02:52
Waspyeah, but for "classical" reasons (nothing really substantial) I'm not a big fan of AMD graphic cards02:53
Waspand to be fair, for real I'm a freebsd guy and there it runs/ran fine02:54
* Wasp also really have to upudate it's freebsd02:54
gnarfacethe only thing important about AMD in this context is just that they're visibly working on improving02:54
Waspamd on freebsd was always just a pain ** t** a**02:54
gnarfacei've mostly only used openbsd, and mostly only headlessly so i don't have any reference point for comparison02:56
WaspKato*laZ said I should add contrib for libdvd-pkg but acutally there is no libdvd-pkg in contrib but libdvdcss and libdvdread02:59
gnarfacehmm, pkginfo.devuan.org suggests you're wrong about that03:00
gnarfacemake sure you've added contrib and non-free to the end of all those lines in your sources.list03:00
gnarfaceit should go "main contrib non-free"03:00
gnarfaceand make sure you run "apt-get update" after making the change, but before searching for the libdvd-pkg package03:01
Waspwell, `apt-cache search libdvd | wc -l` says: 003:01
gnarfaceright, but that depends on your apt cache, which depends on sources.list03:01
Waspforget my last line03:01
gnarfacewhich will be wrong until you make the change03:01
gnarfaceAND run apt-get update03:01
Wasphowever there id libdvdnav, libdvdnav4, libdvdread and libdvdcss203:02
Waspid=is03:02
gnarfacethose are in main except for libdvdcss2, which is in non-free03:03
gnarfaceoh03:03
gnarfacei mean which would be in non-free on other repos but isn't in devuan repos i mean03:03
Wasphowever my point/question here is, "libdvd" no single package (while the oppisite was kinda implied by KatolaZ) or do I still miss something?03:04
gnarfacei assume the version of it that libdvd-pkg builds will flag itself as from non-free though03:04
gnarfaceyes, you missed something03:04
gnarfacethe part where that must be your mistake03:04
gnarfacehere, look at this: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=libdvd-pkg&release=any03:05
gnarfaceshows as present in contrib for every release03:05
Wasphttp://paste.debian.net/1072530/03:05
gnarfaceok, i'm not gonna lie, you're frustrating me because i already told you and clearly you skimmed it03:06
gnarfacebut stand by and i'll give you an edited version of that03:06
Waspprobably I overread it :/03:06
Wasphowever realizing something03:07
gnarfaceWasp: like this http://paste.debian.net/1072532/03:08
gnarfaceWasp: *THEN RUN apt-get update*03:08
WaspI know apt update03:08
Wasphowever added it to ascii-security what is not helpful03:08
Wasphave it now03:09
gnarfaceyea because it needs to be on the "ascii" and "ascii-updates" lines too03:09
gnarfacebasically you want those parameters to be the same for every line in there03:09
gnarfacewhatever you set them to03:09
gnarface(it's ok to remove contrib and non-free when you're done with this, if you don't want those packages to update further without your knowledge - stuff in contrib and non-free tends to have lower quality than the rest of the stuff)03:10
Waspyeah, didn't know that (even though I added it to the wrong line by mistake, I always understood it as some kind of parameters to the repos)03:11
StackerHello! I am having issues connecting towards devuan.org (and subdomains packages.devuan.org) anyone else experiencing this issue? I am not getting a ping on the addres that 'dig devuan.org' gives me.10:04
debdogyah, it's down10:06
Centurion_DanStacker: for mirrors use deb.devuan.org - the main website is down currently and we're trying to get things back online.10:07
StackerCenturion_Dan: Thanks for the info!10:08
StackerAlright! It's now fetching the package lists correctly, thanks alot!10:09
sokanbuZz: I've ordered my T420 \o/11:47
buZzw00t11:47
buZz420 erry day11:48
specingsokan: so you are fine with the backdoors?11:48
sokanwell... the order will take place on tuesday but I'll have it on Thursday probably11:48
buZzintel ME? you can flash that away on T42011:48
specingnope11:48
sokanspecing: yeah... beggars can'tbe choosers11:48
buZzyep11:48
sokan:\11:48
specingME is hard silicon, can't flash that away11:48
buZzyou can11:48
buZzyou can neuter ME by replacing the code of it in bios11:49
sokanspecing: my desktop is amd ryzen 1700 so it also has some sort of backdoor11:49
buZzit'll run without network capability etc :P11:49
sokanwe can't avoid it these days afaict11:49
buZzwell, we can11:49
buZzyou just need to pay more ;)11:49
sokanhaha11:49
sokanmac?11:49
buZznearly all thinkpads are also made for NSA etc11:49
sokan:P11:49
buZzwithout ME on it11:49
sokan:O11:49
buZzwait, without AMT on it11:50
buZzit'll still have ME11:50
sokanhahah11:50
buZzall cpus after p4 iirc need ME to function11:50
sokanI've give up on trying to be 100% free frome everything :(11:50
specingbuZz: you cannot "replace" the code if it, it is digitally signed11:50
sokans/give/given11:50
buZzspecing: you can11:50
sokantrying my best to just avoid corps, google etc at least :(11:50
buZzhttps://hackaday.com/2016/11/28/neutralizing-intels-management-engine/11:50
buZzspecifically https://hardenedlinux.github.io/firmware/2016/11/17/neutralize_ME_firmware_on_sandybridge_and_ivybridge.html11:51
specingsokan: just get a power9 talos, it even has open source microcode11:51
sokanbuZz: chances of bricking the machine? (I haven't yet read the articles)11:51
sokanspecing: :O :O11:51
buZzsokan: low11:51
buZzyou can flash ME back onto it11:51
buZzthe process has you make a backup copy even11:51
specingbuZz: "neutralizing" is very different to "flash that away". me_cleaner only reduced the firmware to the "bare minimum", whatever that means11:52
specingreduces*11:52
buZzexactly, so neutralizes the impact11:52
buZzas much as humanly possible11:52
buZzwhich is verrrry far from 'cant'11:52
sokannone the less! I'll have a good quality laptop (afai've been told anyway) with devuan on it \o/11:55
buZz\o/11:55
sokanI'm planning on trying out disk encryption on it as well11:55
KatolaZDevuan web accessible already at dev-1.org and dev-one.org11:58
KatolaZ(HTTP + HTTPS)11:58
KatolaZworking to restore www.devuan.org11:58
buZznice nice12:02
buZzKatolaZ: what happened?12:03
booyahwhen your cat thinks server's main power cable is a toy12:35
sokanlol12:38
sokanoh buZz ! I forgot to comment on " 420 erry day ": 'tis a good number name :P14:02
buZz:P lol14:03
sokanmy only worry is how to handle 120 gb ssd... 120 seems...14:05
sokanwell, let's say that it feels like a few MB :S14:05
specing120 is plenty14:10
smkjustice?18:17
smkwhyfor is devuan = [#devuan] Join us, and celebrate in freedom and justice18:26
Xenguysmk: Source?18:28
smk[12:16] -ChanServ- [#devuan] Join us, and celebrate in freedom and justice18:30
smkits the welcome message as set by channel ops18:30
KatolaZsmk: have never see it...18:31
KatolaZanyway, what bothers you?18:31
smki'm just curious about the meaning of the justice part18:33
smkwere the devs that forked with new project wronged by systemd camp in some way?18:34
buZzsokan: keep in mind that small SSDs will perform worse then bigger ones19:39
buZzmarginally, but some19:39
sixwheeledbeastYer aim to keep them less than 60% full at anytime19:45
buZzyeah something that gets harder to do with smaller SSDs aswell ;)19:45
Xenguysixwheeledbeast: Why aim to keep an SSD <60% full?20:08
KatolaZXenguy: 'cause it will last longer20:09
XenguyOK, just curious, why will that cause it to last longer?20:09
XenguyI am using my first SSD in this laptop, and it is currently 80% full20:10
sixwheeledbeastthere is the wear side but also the more full they are the slower they get20:11
XenguyHuh, good to know (fortunately the speedup compared to using traditional HD tek probably more than makes up for that?)20:12
buZzall SSDs have more flash then they report as data20:13
rwpIf it is a good SSD vendor then they will have overprovisioned it sufficiently that lifetime will not be a problem.20:13
buZzif they would have -exact- 120GB for a 120GB model, it would die -quickly- beyond belief20:13
sixwheeledbeastThe drive has to read all partially filled blocks before writing to them whereas an empty block can be written to straight away20:13
Xenguydf tells me this SSD has a 215Gb capacity20:14
KatolaZXenguy: ssd are written by block20:14
rwpI have never seen an Intel SSD nor a Samsung EVO fail due to NAND wearing out.  But I have a stack of failed OCZ SSDs.20:14
specingXenguy: I don't think it should matter20:14
KatolaZand the disk moves the blocks around when writing20:14
specingXenguy: some people swear to leave a gigabyte or so free at the end20:15
rwpXenguy, df tells you how much file system free space is there.  It cannot peer behind the curtain and see what the vendor is using for wear levelling.20:15
KatolaZhence if it has more free space, each cell will be used less frequently20:15
sixwheeledbeastAll SSD's have some over provisioning space wise. There is also TRIM and wear levelling which increases life20:15
KatolaZsixwheeledbeast: over-provisioning is often reserved for bad blocks20:15
* Xenguy decides to read up on SSD's ...20:15
rwpI question the practice of leaving space un-written to.  However with use of TRIM that is possible.20:15
rwpRemember that without TRIM the drive has no way of knowing that the file system free space is actually unused.  It's just data.20:16
buZzkeep in mind that -reading- from SSDs will cause -writes- aswell20:16
buZzas the nand cells will loose power from reading, and will need to get re-written after X time20:16
rwpI have worked with a lot of SSDs and have not yet enabled TRIM on any of them.  I am in the camp that says good vendors over-provision them and wear level in the background.20:17
rwpTRIM should help a low quality vendor that has very little over-provisioning however.20:17
buZzwell for just typical 3-5 year usage you wont run into the issues quickly20:18
buZzunless you have seriously misconfigured something :P like programs that write 100GB logfiles a day or something20:18
buZzyou dont need to enable trim btw, could just run fstrim every week or something20:19
rwpI am many years into an Intel prototype SSD and I have worked it hard for all of these years.  It's in my Thinkpad T61p.  I moved it from my T43p into it.  Could it be 10+ years old now?  Time flies!20:20
buZzhmhm, come back when you tested 100 of them next to each other ;)20:21
rwpThat is how I ended up with a stack of OCZ drives.  Those dropped out rather quickly.  It was a school environment.20:21
buZzright, so you -have- actual data of SSDs failing but fail to see relevance to n=1 testsets next to it ;)20:22
sixwheeledbeastYes, over provisioning is for bad blocks and drive firmware but also it needs somewhere to move data to while shuffling write operations about.20:22
buZzsixwheeledbeast: -and- read operations20:22
buZzwhich cause writes20:22
sixwheeledbeastexactly20:23
buZzso a full SSD will also copy data slower20:23
sixwheeledbeast:nod:20:23
rwp(me laughs) I have a handful of Intels and a couple of dozen of Samsungs running.  No problems with either of those so far.20:23
sixwheeledbeastI still use hard disks for the majority of my system.20:24
buZzrwp: no offense, but keep it around for such occassions ; https://i.imgur.com/pJPYN6p.png20:24
buZz:D20:24
sixwheeledbeast:)20:24
rwpbuZz, Without using TRIM the drive firmware doesn't know the drive isn't full.  But a drive should be designed to operate with the over-provisioned blocks sufficiently without requiring TRIM.20:25
buZzeh, no20:25
buZzdrive firmware always knows20:25
* rwp laughs :-)20:25
rwpbuZz, regarding that the drive firmware always knows, no, that is incorrect! :-)  Which I only say due to your funny that you shared.20:26
buZzrwp: ok, offer evidence :D20:26
rwpIt can only know if you use trim. And cannot if you do not.20:26
buZztrim is 'mark empty blocks as fully empty'20:26
buZzit cant mark those without KNOWING they are empty previous20:26
rwpBasically, yes.20:26
buZzand doesnt have to be done by OS20:26
rwpRight.20:26
buZzso how does it know, magic?20:27
rwpNegative!  *Must* be done by the OS.  Otherwise it does not know.20:27
buZzah yeah, they have nontrimming internally like you mention with drawbacks20:28
buZz> By 2014, many SSDs had internal background garbage collection mechanisms that worked independently of trimming. Although this successfully maintained their performance even under operating systems that did not support trim, it had the associated drawbacks of increased write amplification and wear of the flash cells.[5]20:28
buZzwhich knows the cells are empty , etc20:28
rwpBy 2014?  That is probably talking about some of the newer entries to the market.20:29
buZzwell thats like 2 computer upgrades ago20:29
rwpI guess I will say that I used to work in the cpu design lab but when that was shut down the people all scattered to other places.  Among them various SSD vendors.  I still buddy around with them and we will often talk about SSDs and how they work.  I have had these conversations often with the people who are doing the work.20:30
rwpIf you want to know how much NAND is actually on the device then look at the board and count the chips.  It can be worked out that way.  Then look at the advertised size.  The difference is their over-proisioning.20:31
buZzlol20:32
rwpA file system might write a 4k block (used to be 512 bytes) but NAND flash is written in blocks of megabytes.  Therefore there is always backing cache ram to store and write data.20:32
specingrwp: which cpu design lab?20:32
rwpPA-RISC20:32
buZzthat makes you over 60 years old?20:33
rwpThen Itanium.  But by then I was working in the tools lab.20:33
rwpbuZz is pretty good with the math!  :-)  Not quite that old yet but getting there very quickly.20:33
buZz59 ;)20:33
sixwheeledbeast2 upgrades? I build a machine about every 8 years...20:33
buZzwe dont all live in prosperous nations ;)20:34
rwpIt's OT but I can't resist.  "I'm not old." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng20:34
sixwheeledbeaster?20:35
NephielHi there. Was the devuan.org server outage fixed?20:49
NephielI seem unable to run apt-get update on some servers due to a hash sum mismatch20:50
xinomilomirrors could be syncing, try again in a short while.20:51
xinomilooutage seems fixed : https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=271520:51
Nephiel"Could not connect to packages.devuan.org:80 (2001:41d0:8:2c55::a2). - connect (101: Network is unreachable) [IP: 2001:41d0:8:2c55::a2 80]"20:53
Nephiel*shrug*20:54
Jjp137use deb.devuan.org20:55
Nephiel"W: Failed to fetch http://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/main/Contents-amd64.gz: Hash Sum mismatch"21:00
NephielNothing to do but wait, I guess21:01
stripehi all, anyone know if the raspberry pi 3 image will work on the 3b+ same chip just clocked a bit faster, just want to build a small headless vpn client, so dont need wifi, cheers21:18
xinomilostripe is gone, but yes :)21:26

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