freenode/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-03-16

Xenguysokan: My understanding is that the Debian project would continue:  they have protocols for who assumes what in the event no one runs for DPL election00:03
Xenguy*assumes what duties00:03
sokanis sddm that gray ugly mess by default or did I do something wrong? :\00:22
dtigueSo I come from an Arch background, but I've been (forced) to use Windows for the past few years and am now trying to get back up to speed with Linux. Is there any documentation someone can point me to that has info about devuan apt sources so I can add more applications?04:08
dtigueSpecifically chromium04:08
Jjp137dtigue, here:
dtigueThanks Jjp13704:31
golinuxThere's also if you're looking for a package.04:31
dtigueCool, thanks golinux04:35
dtigueI'll check them both out04:35
nailykhello ! Do you know if a raspberrypi version of devuan exist please ?11:29
KatolaZnailyk: sure they do11:32
sokanHow can I get me sddm-kcm installed? I don't find it via apt search sddm-kcm11:32
KatolaZ <- nailyk11:32
KatolaZsokan: it's in kde-config-sddm11:33
KatolaZsokan: you should install apt-file11:33
KatolaZthen `apt-file update`11:33
KatolaZand `apt-file search SPEC` will tell you the packages which install a file whose path contains SPEC11:34
KatolaZsokan: ^^^11:34
sokanSPEC is whicher package?11:35
sokangot it working!11:36
sokanWhy on earth can't add a theme on sddm them? :S11:36
KatolaZsokan SPEC is whatever you are looking for11:42
KatolaZapt-file search sddm-kcm11:42
KatolaZkde-config-sddm: /usr/share/sddm-kcm/main.qml11:42
KatolaZsokan: ^^^11:42
sokanfoud it11:43
sokanbased on this, I should be able to change theme on sddm, but I don't see any option at all. Is there another way to "impose" a theme? Do you have any idea KatolaZ ?11:44
KatolaZsokan: I am not using KDE, sorry11:45
KatolaZor sddm11:45
sokanno worries11:45
KatolaZor any other DE11:45
sokanxinit for logging in then I presume? ;)\11:45
KatolaZit's more than enough11:46
sokanany panels/bars?11:46
KatolaZsokan: ?12:00
sokanlike xfce4 panel. To show battery, cpu usage etc12:00
KatolaZyou mean if they are available in the repo?12:01
KatolaZsure they are12:01
sokanno no if yuo use any12:01
sokanhardcore ricing12:01
sokanjust curious is all12:02
KatolaZno, I mean, why you define that "hardcore ricing"? :D12:02
KatolaZI check battery every now and than with acpi12:03
sokanjust one wm no extra bar programs == hardcore in my eyes :P12:03
KatolaZused to have a small bar, but it is a waste of space on my screen12:03
KatolaZand anyway, there is a script which puts the laptop on standby when the battery is low12:06
KatolaZso I don't need to check the battery level12:06
epergnyhello community, very old time Linux user and very likely future Devuan convert here!12:14
KatolaZwelcom epergny12:14
sokanjoinb the club epergny12:14
epergnymy needs are simple: my "workstation" (just a fat PC with no sound: no speakers, no internal speaker, no sound configure) runs basically Emacs compiled from source, a few terms and browsers. I think Devuan would be totally fine here ^ ^12:16
epergnyand I've got a few headless Raspberry Pis running simple things.  sshd, no X, private bare git repositories.  I may test the water first with a RPi.12:18
KatolaZepergny: you should be fine12:18
epergnyI also have a thing of beauty: one of the Debian server with the longest uptime in the world. Now I keep it on (in a datacenter) just to see how many years it reaches.12:19
epergnyI did patch everything I could but without rebooting, so it's not secure. It only has sshd open though. It's of course running pre-systemd Debian.12:19
epergnyAn old Debian of yore, back when Debian didn't have that weird PID 1 rube-goldberg machinery.12:20
KatolaZhow long has it been running?12:21
epergnytwo sec, let me paste the uptime12:21
epergny11:09:24 up 2150 days, 21:04,  1 user,  load average: 0.07, 0.04, 0.0512:22
KatolaZnice one12:22
epergnyLinux 3.2.13-grsec-xxxx-grs-ipv6-32 #1 SMP Thu Mar 29 09:43:21 UTC 2012 i686 GNU/Linux12:22
KatolaZso it's a wheezy12:23
epergnyit's hosted at OVH, in France.  I just replaced its "ks number" with XXXXX because I wouldn't want someone to DDOS it or something : )12:23
epergnybasically I forgot I had it and one day I noticed it was there still running (paying about 10 EUR / month for it) and had a big uptime, like 3 years or so. And I decided to keep it just for fun.12:24
epergnydoes Devuan ASCII offer easy full LUKS disk encryption during install like Debian?12:26
KatolaZepergny: the installer is the same as devuan12:27
KatolaZunless you install from a live12:27
KatolaZsorry, I meant the same as debian12:27
epergny: )12:28
KatolaZarm-images are pre-built though12:28
epergnyI'm running a Core i7 / 4.9-something-amd64 kernel12:28
KatolaZepergny: https://files.devuan.org12:28
KatolaZlook for devuan_ascii12:29
KatolaZunder installer-iso you have the usual netinst, cdrom, dvd12:29
epergnyascii is stretch right?12:29
KatolaZascii is ascii :)12:29
epergnyand the release follow the same cycle as Debian? For example when Buster shall be stable, Beowulf shall basically come out? Or is there a long delay?12:31
KatolaZthere has been a longish delay in the past12:32
KatolaZbut it looks like we might catch up with beowulf12:33
KatolaZmaybe with a small delay12:33
epergnyI'm a Linux (Debian even) power user (since 20 years) but I'm no sysadmin and not a Linux guru. So I may ask silly questions.12:33
BjornnI can one up you on the silly12:34
epergnyheck, even more than 20 years. Started with Slackware 3.0, that was before 1999.12:34
epergnyBjornn: ah ah :)12:34
gnarfacehey slackware! ^512:35
KatolaZepergny: you are in good company here I guess12:35
sokanKatolaZ: do you know if I can install this in devuan?12:35
epergnygnarface: ^ ^  back then we were still all on dialup and d/l ing Linux was too crazy.  So I bought the Slackware book and got a Linux CD with it.12:35
KatolaZsokan: in general you should avoid mixing releases12:36
KatolaZsokan: especially if you don't know your way around De??uan particulary well12:36
KatolaZ(no offence intended, but dealing with sid requires a bit of experience with debian)12:36
sokanthing is I have my passwords in keepassxc and I'd like to stay there12:37
KatolaZsokan: but it's available in ascii as well12:37
KatolaZwhy do you need the unstable version?12:38
epergnyFirst silly question:  I compile my Emacs "--without-dbus --without-gtk --without-sound". I don't use any DE: I just use a simple WM (Awesome WM).  Do I even need dbus on my system?12:38
sokanKatolaZ: oooh. It's in backports12:38
gnarfaceepergny: probably not12:38
sokanhow do i add stuff from backports? :S12:38
gnarfaceepergny: you don't use a graphical login either, right?  you just startx?12:38
epergnygnarface: yup exactly12:39
KatolaZepergny: it depends on whether any of the app you use needs dbus12:39
KatolaZor was compiled with dbus support12:39
epergnyold school text mode login (and I miss my runlevels)12:39
gnarfaceepergny: some WMs might need dbus.  Steam needs dbus.  most of the other stuff that wants dbus can do without it12:39
KatolaZsokan: you should add ascii-backports repos  in /etc/apt/sources.list12:39
epergnyemacs, xterm, browsers. That's basically it.12:39
epergnygnarface: ah good to know.12:40
gnarfaceepergny: (thunderbird and firefox like dbus but they don't do anything particularly useful with it)12:40
KatolaZepergny: some apps need libdbus but won't complain if you don\t have the dbus daemon running12:40
epergnyoh that is very interesting.12:40
epergnyso it wasn't that silly of a question after all ^^12:40
gnarfaceso if you're missing dbus, then thunderbird will make you pick a browser when you click on a link from an email, or something like that.  you lose very little functionality12:40
gnarfaceconversly firefox will make you pick an email client when you click a mailo: link12:41
sokanif I get it straight keepassxc (and other backpots packages) are tested but not quite unstable yet?12:41
epergnyanother silly question: can I run Devuan under Stretch inside a Docker container? (just as a test)12:41
gnarfacebarring Docker bugs...12:42
KatolaZsokan: backports are packages not present in the stable release which have been ported there12:42
KatolaZsokan: backports should work without problem12:42
epergnygnarface: I should switch back to Emacs for email but somehow I fell on the darkside and I'm using a web-based mail atm.12:42
epergnybut Docker is a bit special in that it does something special with PID 1: and systemd too. I don't really understand how that plays out.12:43
gnarfaceepergny: someone had done this recently with Docker and ran into trouble with a bug in Docker but i think they found a fix12:44
epergnyI mean: inside a Docker, PID 1 is not systemd (even if you run Debian stretch say)12:44
gnarfacethe Docker bug might have even been unrelated12:44
epergnyok ok12:44
gnarfacebut i remember a discussion about it12:44
gnarfacei'd recommend qemu-kvm instead12:44
gnarfaceof course12:44
KatolaZepergny: just test it12:44
epergnywell, at least trying with Docker is really easy.12:44
epergnyKatolaZ: yeah12:44
KatolaZdocker is a moving target12:44
eyalrozWould someone be willing to help me out with GLX woes?12:48
epergnyeyalroz: I would if I could but I simply use the mobo's integrated gpu and all I know about GLX is "glxgears" : (13:08
eyalrozepergny: Thanks for taking the trouble to apologize :-)13:09
eyalrozAnyway, a description of my problem appears here:13:09
epergnyand moreover glxgears in full screen on my system shows tearing, so even here it's either not v-synching or not using double-buffering correctly ^ ^13:09
eyalrozAnd I had it both with Debian Stretch and with Devuan ASCII.13:09
epergnybut then I've got a 3840x1600 screen so I guess that the mobo's integrated GPU may be in trouble ^ ^13:10
eyalroz@epergny: I don't even want to do anything demanding, I just want the HW acceleration of various run-of-the-mill desktop stuff to not fail.13:10
eyalrozLike, Cinnamon crashes into fallback mode.13:10
gnarfaceeyalroz: which nvidia gpu?13:16
gnarfacethe nvidia-driver pack age is in non-free13:16
eyalrozgnarface: GeForce GTX 1050 Ti, but - does it matter? I want to have Xorg completely  ignore it...13:17
gnarfaceoh, you're trying to get glx NOT on that?13:17
gnarfaceeverything else uses mesa13:17
gnarfacewhich is in main13:17
eyalrozgnarface: The situation is that I have a GPU, and I have on-board graphics. My monitor is fed from my board's output connector, since I only want to use the GPU for compute work13:18
eyalrozthe nVIDIA drivers are installed (not the Debian package - I used nVIDIA's CUDA installer for drivers and the toolkit),13:19
eyalrozand are loaded, since I do use them13:19
gnarfacewell that shell script shouldn't be used13:19
eyalrozand somehow this situation gets a bunch of software mixed up about itself13:19
gnarfaceit runs roughshod over the package dependencies, it doesn't care about your distro13:20
gnarfaceit breaks things13:20
gnarfacenormally you should be using the packages from the repo13:20
gnarfacebut i thought for compute tasks you want to just install CUDA alone, don't you?13:20
eyalroz1. I realize that might be the case; if I know what's possibly broken, I could try and fix it.13:20
eyalroz2. I don't let the setup script change my X configuration13:20
gnarfacei guess i don't know for sure, i've never been in that situation13:20
gnarfacebut the onboard card, if it is not nvidia, it would be using mesa13:21
gnarfaceyou might have to blacklist the nvidia driver or at least make sure xorg isn't loading it13:21
gnarfaceyou probably will have to have some amount of manual xorg.conf13:21
gnarfacewhich i assume you do13:21
gnarfacenormally it figures out what to do if you are not missing any packages13:21
eyalrozgnarface: in my modprobe.d, I have:13:22
eyalrozblacklist nouveau13:22
eyalrozoptions nouveau modeset=013:22
eyalrozblacklist lbm-nouveau13:22
eyalrozalias nouveau off13:22
eyalrozalias lbm-nouveau off13:22
gnarfacenouveau is the open source nvidia driver13:22
gnarfaceit ALSO conflicts with the non-free nvidia driver13:22
gnarfacebut in this case you may need to blacklist both of them13:22
eyalrozSo, it looks like my X server is trying to load the nvidia driver, and the nvidia module,13:23
eyalrozand the nouveau module...13:23
gnarfaceyea, so you could actually have more than one problem going on there13:23
eyalrozand an "nv" module which it can't find13:23
gnarfacenv is deprecated, long long gone13:23
gnarfacejust delete that13:23
eyalrozI'm looking at the log output; not sure where to delete things.13:24
gnarfacebut it would have conflicted with nouveau and nvidia's official drivers as well13:24
gnarfaceno i mean just delete it from your xorg.conf13:24
eyalrozI don't have  an xorg.conf file, I think it's auto-generated.13:24
gnarfaceso it stops trying to load it13:24
gnarfaceoh hmmm13:24
eyalrozI remember there's something I can do to generate it into a file, and for X to default to loading that13:24
eyalrozbut I forgot how that works13:24
gnarfacewell it does try to auto-config when it can't find a xorg.conf, that is the default behavior now.  but it's not very smart and it tends to fail with multi-head setups13:24
gnarfacemy guess is the closed-source nvidia driver loads first and then tries to take over13:25
gnarfacebut you're probably also missing some mesa glx stuff13:25
gnarfacewhat is the onboard card?13:25
eyalrozjust a sec.13:25
eyalroz" Intel Corporation Device 5912 (rev 04)"13:26
gnarfacewell it's intel13:26
eyalrozit's on a Z170 Intel board13:26
gnarfaceit can probably make at least limited use of mesa13:26
eyalrozI think it uses the i915 kernel module13:26
gnarfaceyea that should already be present, but mesa probably isn't13:27
gnarfacecheck for packages: mesa-utils, mesa-va-drivers, libgl1-mesa-lgx13:28
eyalrozOk, so if I do:13:28
eyalrozXorg :1 -configure13:28
eyalrozit creates a new xorg.conf file for me.13:28
gnarfacei mean libgl1-mesa-gls13:28
gnarfacei mean libgl1-mesa-glx13:28
gnarfacesorry it's late13:28
gnarfaceyea you'll probably have to edit that xorg.conf by hand a bit13:28
eyalrozAll three of these packages are installed13:29
gnarfaceoh hmmm13:29
eyalrozlet's me reinstall them just to be on the safe side13:29
gnarfaceoh i wonder if you're missing firmware-linux-nonfree13:29
eyalrozis there a way to verify the installation of a package? i.e. check if all the files are in place?13:29
gnarfaceonly by hand, that i know of13:29
gnarfacebut you can reinstall them13:29
eyalrozSo, installing firmware-linux-nonfree now and reinstalling the other 3.13:30
gnarfacehave you seen this?
eyalrozthen I'll go read that xorg.conf, edited some stuff out, and then get disconnected when I bring X down then up again.13:30
gnarfacethat wiki page for mesa from debian doesn't contain any systemd specific info13:31
gnarfaceshould be still relevant for you13:31
gnarfaceoh and it can be a permissions error, depending on your setup13:31
gnarface(xorg doesn't run setuid root anymore)13:31
gnarface(not by default, anyway)13:31
eyalroz gnarface: Wouldn't I see permissions errors in the Xorg log then?13:32
eyalrozAnd - Xorg _does_ load, it's just other things that have weird failures.13:32
eyalrozLike Cinnamon crashes to fallback mode,13:33
eyalrozand the Libreoffice spalsh screen usually being black13:33
eyalrozand so on.13:33
eyalrozgnarface: The xorg.conf that was generated for me has _no_ lines regarding nvidia at all.13:33
eyalrozit does have two Device sections, one with "intel" for the driver and one with "nouveau". I'll try removing the second.13:34
eyalrozWell, wish me luck...13:37
eyalrozgnarface: So here's what happened. When I removed the nouveau driver, and an associated screen and monitor - X would not load. It said that no screens were found.13:44
eyalrozSo on one hand, it seems like it's using the nouveau driver. On the other handm this doesn't make sense, since the signal gets to the monitor from the motherboard.13:44
gnarfacetoo many possibilities still13:49
gnarfaceeyalroz: the nouveau driver should be blacklisted though.... mabye comment out all the lines in your modprobe.d files referring to it other than the one that says "blacklist nouveau" and comment out the lines referring to it in xorg.conf13:51
gnarfaceand make sure you're looking at the right Xorg.0.log13:51
gnarfaceif you're running it as root or suid root it will be in the usual place in /var/log/ but otherwise it will be in ~/.local/share/xorg/13:52
gnarfacethen pastebin that xorg log for me, i'll look at it13:53
eyalrozgnarface: So, comment out just that one xorg.conf line which says what the driver is? That doesn't sound right...14:00
eyalrozAnd I think I'm running X as root, since the only Xorg log is at /var/log14:01
gnarfaceeyalroz: no, not just that line, the whole stanza14:13
gnarfacethe whole "Device" section associated with it14:14
gnarfacethere should only be one driver referred to in each Device section14:14
gnarfaceyou will need one for each card14:15
gnarfacebut be careful not to have multiple for any card14:15
gnarfacenouveau, nv, and the official nvidia drivers are all mutually exclusive14:15
eyalrozgnarface: so, should I use the nvidia driver for the second device?14:21
eyalrozoh, sorry, you said delete that whole section.14:22
eyalrozok, but it'll fail like before.14:22
eyalrozdoing this now.14:22
gnarfaceeyalroz: well, for the second device, try it both ways14:25
gnarfaceeyalroz: but it's probably easier to debug the onboard video card alone than to debug them both at once14:25
gnarfaceso for the first try, just comment out the nvidia one14:26
gnarfaceyes, when you get it working, you'd have two "Device" sections, one for the intel card and one for the nvidia card14:26
gnarfacemake sure there is also a "Screen" section and a "Monitor" section14:26
poeinklumgnarface: Initial X server log (no xorg.conf):
gnarfaceyou're also eyalroz?14:29
eyalrozgnarface: X server log with the edited xorg.conf:
eyalrozThe edited xorg.conf:
gnarfacethe first one is just a basic failure of the intel device i've seen before - it tries to load a framebuffer driver and chokes14:30
eyalrozgnarface: But X does load, somehow, with the first one. Not with the second one.14:31
gnarfaceyea but that's why your compositor fails14:31
gnarfacebecause it's just in fallback mode14:31
gnarfacelike with a generic driver14:31
gnarface[347488.301] (EE) No devices detected.14:32
gnarfacedid you add yourself to the "video" group?14:33
gnarfacethere might be a missing package or two still... it's right on the tip of my brain...14:33
gnarfacemake sure you're in the video group14:34
gnarfacefor your second try, the driver clearly loads and can't find any devices14:36
gnarfacebut i think that might just be a normal permissions thing as easily as a missing xorg package14:36
gnarfacei'm booting an intel laptop for reference, stand by14:36
eyalrozchecking the video group14:38
eyalrozalso, use my nickname so I know you've replied...14:38
gnarfacethanks, that's confusing when it starts changing around14:39
eyalrozYes, I'm in the video group14:39
gnarfacealright... can you pastebin me the output of: dpkg -l |grep xorg14:39
gnarfacexserver-xorg-video-intel is present14:44
gnarfacexserver-xorg-legacy does suggest you'd be running it suid root14:44
gnarfacei guess there's no guarantee this card is supported14:45
gnarfacei don't think they all are, but it's been a really really long time since i ran into one that wasn't14:45
gnarfacewhat do you have for: dpkg -l |grep intel14:45
eyalroz6 things actually14:46
gnarfaceis libdrm-intel1 in there?14:47
eyalrozyes, it is in there14:47
gnarfacethat looks normal14:48
gnarfacei must be missing something still14:48
gnarfaceis this from within Docker?14:48
eyalrozI don't use docker, ugh.14:49
eyalrozwhy do you ask?14:49
gnarfacesorry, you weren't the guy who was gonna try this in Docker first, that was the other guy i guess14:49
* eyalroz shrugs14:50
* eyalroz doesn't know about other guys14:50
gnarfacecan you check ps to make absolutely sure that xorg is running as suid root?14:50
gnarfaceon my intel laptop here i'm actually not using it that way14:50
gnarfacei got it running as the current user14:50
eyalrozgnarface: It's running as root, yes.14:50
eyalrozroot     25556  3.5  1.5 718924 254700 tty7    Ssl+ 15:24   0:54 /usr/lib/xorg/Xorg :0 -seat seat0 -auth /var/run/lightdm/root/:0 -nolisten tcp vt7 -novtswitch14:51
eyalrozI really don't remember choosing this to be the case though.14:51
gnarfaceit's because you have that xserver-xorg-legacy package14:51
gnarfacebut it should work either way14:52
gnarfacedo you also have the firmware-linux-free package?14:53
gnarfacecheck for that14:53
eyalrozit looks like that package is empty14:54
eyalrozit just has stuff in /usr/share/doc/firmware-linux-free14:54
eyalroza copyright and a changelog14:54
gnarfaceoh that's because the actual firmware i think it's downloading from somewhere on the fly after install14:54
gnarfaceor generating it somehow14:54
gnarfacedirty tricks, i know14:55
gnarfaceok at this point i have two guesses14:56
gnarfacefirst i need a clarification: was the nvidia kernel module loaded this whole time while testing?14:56
eyalrozI mean, I'm pretty sure it was.14:58
eyalrozCan check for extra safety I guess14:58
gnarfaceblacklist it AND the nouveau driver, comment out the nvidia-related sections in the xorg.conf, then reboot14:58
gnarfaceif that doesn't work, i'm blaming it on the nvidia shell script installer14:58
eyalrozgnarface: Ok, but I do need it running though.14:58
gnarfaceunderstood, but one thing at a time here14:58
* eyalroz proceeds to edit scripts14:58
gnarfacethe nvidia shell script installer may very well have replaced key files belonging to some of these other packages, which might be choking it14:59
eyalrozgnarface: should I just blacklist nvidia, or also other nvidia_XXX modules?14:59
gnarfacethere are others?????14:59
eyalroznvidia_uvm, nvidia_drm, nvidia_modeset14:59
eyalrozand a module which only nvidia depends on: ipmi_msghandler15:00
gnarfaceoh, yea, those.  uh, they shouldn't load if you've blacklisted the main one.  don't bother unless they do15:00
eyalrozYes, you're right. Ok, here goes nothing.15:00
gnarfacegood luck15:00
sokanhow does sysvinit work?15:01
sokanI'm used to `rc-service sshd start` and so on15:02
eyalrozSo, my "blacklist nvidia" line was apparently ignored15:05
eyalrozsince when X came up, the module was loaded15:05
gnarfaceyea, did you remove the other lines referring to that in there?15:07
gnarfacewhen you pasted it, i noticed that *after* the "blacklist nvidia" line you had options nvidia ....15:08
gnarfacei don't know if that'll just override the previous blacklist line15:08
gnarfacein all my files, it comes last in the file and alone15:08
gnarfacenothing else referring to nvidia15:08
gnarfaceyou didn't tell me the name of the file either... at some point they changed it so only files ending with ".conf" are acknowledged in /etc/modprobe.d15:09
gnarfaceyou're aware of that, right?15:09
eyalrozI added it in a file which the nvidia installer created,15:09
eyalrozwhich was originally intended to blacklist nouveau15:10
gnarfacecomment out the lines in there that aren't the blacklist ones15:10
eyalrozThe X log says:15:10
eyalrozernel command line: BOOT_IMAGE=/vmlinuz-4.9.0-8-amd64 root=UUID=acad7fc8-7ba2-4c41-a0d9-ba73f5a4a87c ro quiet nomodeset nouveau.blacklist=1 nouveau.modeset=015:10
eyalroz... but somehow no nvidia.blacklist=115:11
gnarfacethose are set elsewhere15:11
gnarfacelook in /etc/defaults/grub15:11
eyalrozIt's there.15:11
eyalrozI could blacklist through there...?15:11
gnarfaceyes, it should work as far as i know but i can't say from first-hand experience15:12
gnarfacealso worth a try15:12
eyalrozOk, trying again.15:12
eyalrozgnarface: X rudely ignored my kernel line... and loaded the nvidia module.15:18
gnarfacethis is a fully up-to-date ascii install, right?15:18
eyalrozI apt-get dist-upgrade'd about a week ago I think15:19
gnarfacewell, this is an entirely separate problem we need to get to the bottom of before anything else is gonna work15:19
gnarfacebut at this point i'm running out of ideas other than maybe try the live image, see if it behaves better.  if it does, i'm pretty sure the nvidia shell script installer must have broke something here15:19
eyalrozI don't want to take so much of your time if it's inconvenient. I mean, I know this isn't a very typical setup and everything.15:20
eyalrozWhere's the ASCII live image?15:20
gnarfacestand by i'll find you a link15:20
gnarfaceit's more just that i've been up all night and my mental usefulness is waning15:20
gnarfacelive images in here15:20
eyalrozDo you think the module could be loaded through the initrd.img maybe?15:23
gnarfacehmmm.  possibly15:23
gnarfacethat's what the initrd.img is for15:23
eyalrozgnarface: This says the same:
eyalrozI'll try that before the live image.15:24
gnarfaceoh, right15:24
gnarfacebecause you used the shell script installer, it doesn't trigger the update-initramfs automatically either15:24
gnarfacethat makes sense15:24
gnarfacei also note that it seems support for the 5912 card first appears in kernel 4.5, which is not so much older than the stock ascii kernel15:25
gnarfaceso as a last shot if the live image doesn't work, maybe try the kernel from backports15:25
gnarfaceit could just be a bug in the driver15:25
gnarfacebut that's pretty unlikely15:26
gnarfacethat nvidia shell script has a history of mangling stuff15:26
gnarfacei would say it is the prime suspect at this point15:26
eyalrozgnarface: No such luck. Downloading the image now.15:28
gnarfacedamn man, alright15:28
gnarfacegood luck15:28
gnarfacesomething is definitely off if it's ignoring all those changes....15:29
gnarfacethere's just too many things it can be for me to remember them all15:29
gnarfacei suppose it's probably worth checking the output of dmesg for any weird errors at boot or after xorg startup15:30
gnarfacebut we got all the firmware you might need so i can't even think of what15:31
eyalrozNot seeing any weird errors15:34
eyalrozin dmesg I mean15:34
eyalrozAh, oh15:35
gnarfaceonce you get it obeying you, it might just come down to passing the right PCI BusID to each "Device" stanza in the xorg.conf15:35
eyalroznvidia: unknown parameter 'blacklist' ignored15:35
eyalrozI guess it doesn't work that way.15:35
gnarfaceok so i guess that means maybe the official binary driver doesn't pay attention to the kernel command-line like that15:35
eyalrozand nouveau is willing to "blacklist itself"15:35
gnarfacewell, they should both obey the /etc/modprobe.d files15:36
eyalrozBut who's the culprit? It's not the modules that each have to look themselves up in modprobe.d , right? It must be something else15:36
gnarfacethe culprit still could be that you have nvidia driver options *after* the "blacklist nvidia" line in modprobe.d15:37
gnarfaceand you may need to run that update-initramfs line again after changing those files too15:38
gnarfacei don't specifically remember having a problem with that but i've also not gone this direction with these changes before15:39
gnarfaceusually i'm blacklisting nouveau, or *completely uninstalling the nvidia packages* (something the shell script can't cleanly do)15:39
gnarfacei've never actually tried to make an intel and nvidia card coexist in the same machine15:40
eyalrozI did rerun update-initramfs15:40
eyalrozDo you really think the order of blacklist directives could matter? That seems rather unlikely.15:40
gnarfaceto be clear15:41
gnarfacebut i think the order of the *options* directives in respect to them might15:42
gnarfacehaving options for the nvidia driver *after* the blacklist nvidia line might just actually nullify the blacklist line15:42
gnarfacei AM however POSITIVE that it's not worth it to specifically avoid testing that theory15:43
eyalrozI commented-out the options lines in that file after the blacklist directives, so hopefully that shouldn't be an issue15:45
gnarfaceif they're commented out with a # then it should be fine15:45
gnarfaceand the entire nvidia Device stanza is commented out in the xorg.conf right?15:46
gnarfaceconfig snippets in theory could be conflicting with the xorg.conf in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d or /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d, but the packages in the repo would not have done that.  i can't tell you for sure the shell script wouldn't either.15:47
eyalrozNot right now it isn't. I'm dumb.15:47
eyalrozAlthough - it's a nouveau stanza15:48
eyalrozgnarface: Brought the system up via liveimage16:02
eyalrozWill send a Xorg.0.log paste soon.16:02
gnarfaceany different?16:02
eyalrozWell, sort of16:03
eyalroznouveau is loaded16:03
eyalrozBut not mentioned in Xorg.0.log16:03
eyalroz... and it can be unloaded, meaning it's not used.16:04
eyalrozIf I now generate an xorg.conf, it looks just like before: An "Intel" device section and a "nouvea" device section.16:07
eyalroz# glxinfo  | grep "OpenGL render"16:08
eyalrozOpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Intel(R) Kabylake GT216:08
gnarfaceNote: Some (Debian & Ubuntu, Fedora, KDE) recommend not installing the xf86-video-intel driver, and instead falling back on the modesetting driver for fourth generation and newer GPUs. See [1], [2], Xorg#Installation, and modesetting(4). However, the modesetting driver can cause problems such as Chromium Issue 370022. Also, the modesetting driver will not be benefited by Intel GuC/HuC/DMC firmware.16:09
gnarface(that's from the arch linux wiki but i think that's what is going on here)16:09
gnarfaceit is falling back on kms after fbdev and vesa fail16:10
gnarfaceno evidence it tried the intel driver16:11
eyalrozgnarface: Is it actually failing to load those?16:11
eyalrozIt doesn't report failure16:11
gnarfacewell it always tries them first.  they just load then unload normally16:12
gnarfaceso this looks in better shape than your install16:12
gnarfacebut try it with the intel driver now16:12
eyalrozso apt-get install xserver-xorg-video-intel ?16:13
gnarfaceif it's not already there, yea16:13
eyalrozalready installed.16:13
eyalrozHow do I force that?16:13
gnarfacejust use the xorg conf16:14
eyalrozAh. ok.16:14
gnarfacei frankly don't know if it will work better for you than KMS is now16:16
gnarfacethis will be a learning experience for both of us16:16
gnarfacedon't forget that the graphical login manager will also have to be restarted now16:17
gnarfaceor it will feed the old xorg config to the new xorg instance and ignore your new xorg.conf16:17
eyalrozI remembered I can just keep the IRC session live on my laptop...16:19
eyalrozThis is with the nouveau section commented-out16:20
gnarfacethere we go16:21
gnarfacethat looks right16:21
gnarfacenote all these lines: (II) intel(0)16:21
gnarfacethose are the driver initializing16:22
eyalrozYes, I noticed those16:22
gnarfaceas far as i can tell it's working right now16:22
gnarfacehow does it actually look?16:22
eyalrozWell, it's running Xfce, so I can't check whether cinnamon crashes16:22
eyalrozbut I'll do that soon16:22
eyalrozOther than that - it's not like I can tell.16:23
eyalrozIf glxinfo doesn't complain, I'm good I guess.16:23
gnarfacevblank_mode=0 glxgears16:23
gnarfaceglxinfo |grep direct.rendering16:23
gnarface glxinfo |grep renderer16:24
gnarfacethat type of stuff16:24
eyalrozCinnamon works with HW rendering.16:25
gnarfaceglxgears isn't for benchmarking, but you will still normally see a notable framerate difference between it in hardware rendering mode vs software rendering mode on modern hardware, as long as vsync is disabled16:25
eyalrozI see the gears16:25
eyalrozabout 9760 FPS16:26
gnarfaceso, what did we learn here?16:26
gnarfacethis is the quiz section of the class16:26
eyalrozThat the introduction of the nvidia driver - and possible other things I've done - have messed stuff up on my system,16:26
gnarfaceyea, that's pretty much it16:26
eyalrozso that the intel driver doesn't get loaded, and the nvidia driver does16:26
gnarfacemore succinctly i would simply say that the nvidia shell script crippled your install16:27
gnarfaceyou might have thrown a couple other monkey wrenches in there with it16:27
gnarfaceso the lesson to be learned is, don't use that shell script16:27
eyalrozOk, but:16:28
eyalroz1. Xorg still has the correct opinion about what hardware is available16:28
eyalroz2. Since I'm not running  the shell repeatedly, it should be possible to force X to load what we want it to load16:28
gnarfaceso as i was about to say16:28
gnarfaceyou might be able to make your existing install behave if you explicitly pass the correct BusID for each video card to the corresponding "Device" stanza in your xorg.conf16:28
gnarfacenow, you're gonna have to find the correct PCI bus ids for both of those on your own, i'm out of steam here16:29
gnarfacei'll be back eventually though16:29
gnarfacebut right now i've just gotta sleep16:29
eyalrozBut it's the _same_ device stanza both with the live image and in my original system16:30
gnarfaceactually i think that last xorg log you just pasted from the live image even listed both the bus IDs16:30
eyalrozand the same BusID value AFAICR16:30
gnarfacewell this is my only theory as to a correctable issue16:30
gnarfaceif that's not it, the nvidia script did something to your install that i can't undo16:30
gnarface(or... unspecified other changes... )16:31
eyalrozSo, do you suggest I go through the nvidia shell script and see what it does?16:32
gnarfacebut the live image proves it should work16:32
gnarfaceno, i don't.  but if it sounds fun to you feel free16:33
gnarfaceTBH what i did when i realized how badly behaved it was, was i reinstalled from scratch, using only packages from the repo16:34
gnarfaceand then i made a mental note to NEVER use the shell script from again16:34
gnarfacebut you gotta be true to yourself, ya know?16:34
eyalrozbut - the Devuan repos don't have the CUDA versions I need,16:36
eyalrozand the newer versions can't work with older drivers.16:36
gnarfacenot even in backports?16:36
eyalrozActually, just the second point is the problem.16:36
eyalrozDidn't check bacports, TBH.16:36
specing> reinstalled16:36
gnarfacecheck backports16:36
specingno btrfs?16:36
gnarfaceeyalroz: if the one you need is no in backports, consider doing the CUDA stuff from inside a chroot - you can debootstrap an entire install into the chroot, and then probably inside that the nvidia shell script can't break your base install (probably)16:37
gnarfaceheh, and yea, i'd advise making a backup first16:37
eyalrozgnarface: Not sure if this isn't more pain than what I'm experiencing right now.16:38
specingyou should always have backups16:38
gnarfacewell, as a long-time customer of nvidia, i can say i'm pretty much sick of their shit and this is a perfect case study in such shit16:38
specingbut btrfs snapshots are not proper backups, they are snapshots16:38
specingand they are highly useful in OS-is-broken situations16:39
specingespecially as you can reboot straight into them16:39
eyalrozgnarface: I can't find any references to backports on pkginfo.devuan.org16:39
specinggnarface: NVidia is fine, they make best graphics for Linux16:39
gnarfaceeyalroz: no it works like debian backports16:39
gnarfaceeyalroz: ascii-backports16:39
gnarface(instead of stretch-backports)16:40
* eyalroz scratches head to jog /me's memory16:40
eyalrozI need an apt source line for it I guess16:40
_abc_Hello. Is there an efficient way to locate packages and package by file from the devuan cli? I have dlocate installed, does not help with that.16:40
gnarface_abc_: apt-file might still be broken16:41
gnarfacei haven't checked in a while16:41
eyalroz_abc_: How about dpkg -S ?16:41
gnarfaceeyalroz: (that only works for currently installed packages)16:41
fsmithredapt-file works16:41
_abc_That searches installed packages, I need to search all packages, obviously not installed16:41
_abc_Another: sometimes my middle mouse click (button3) paste is out of whack on X11 xfce on devuan ascii. Where does one fix this?16:42
_abc_Clipboard and middle button are out of sync.16:42
fsmithredeyalroz, just copy your ascii main line and change ascii to ascii-backports16:44
_abc_apt-file found what I need but package xinput is not in the list offered by aptitude.16:44
* gnarface afk16:44
_abc_apt-file search xinput ... xinput: /usr/bin/xinput16:44
eyalrozfsmithred: Ok. TBH though, I doubt this will let me recover from the "horrors" of the nVIDIA shell script. On a fresh install perhaps.16:44
_abc_conclusion: aptitude is out of whack16:45
man_in_shackwho does what now?16:45
eyalrozfsmithred: Oh, it seems I already _have_ backports lines in my sources.list:-P16:45
fsmithredeyalroz, are you switching from nvidia binaries to nvidia packages or the other direction?16:45
eyalrozfsmithred: For now, I'm not switching anywhere. But my current state is nvidia binary installation over _no_ nvidia Devuan packages16:46
fsmithredthe shell script has an uninstall option16:46
eyalrozfsmithred: Probably not very useful when you've run it for different CUDA versions;16:47
eyalrozand - I will actually need CUDA 10.0, so I think I'll have to work out how to make the script not bust Devuan.16:47
_abc_Okay, thanks, problems solved so far. The out of sync middle mouse click paste? Any ideas what can bring that out of sync with the clipboard?16:48
fsmithredI've never had problems installing nvidia with the shell script except when I was trying to switch from using the packages16:48
fsmithred_abc_, no, but if you figure it out, please let us know16:48
eyalrozOh, it installs fine. The problem is that I want to _not_ use it in X16:48
_abc_fsmithred: :) :)16:48
_abc_What was that mechanism in X11 for multiple selection choosing again?16:49
_abc_My current behavior is, the middle click pastes the "previous" selection.16:49
eyalrozfsmithred: And right now, I can't prevent the nvidia drivers from being loaded, and X is refusing to properly load the intel drivers and recognize my on-board graphics device; while with a live-image and no CUDA install, X behaves well.16:49
fsmithredwould setting the vid card in the bios work?16:50
fsmithred_abc_, you mean selecting multiple files at once or you mean having multiple clipboards?16:52
_abc_fsmithred: I have one clipboard, one mouse. double clicking a word in a xterm/etc highlights it and the cliboard app shows it current and selected16:52
fsmithredtriple-click highlights a line16:53
_abc_fsmithred: middle clicking pastes the previously selected word in the clipboard. If I re-select (click on clipboard app on word) the word, and middle, click it will be pasted. If I highlight another with double click, the next middle click again pastes the previous selection, not what I lighted recently.16:53
eyalrozfsmithred: Setting in what sense? It's not that X does not recognize the existence of the card - it generates the same xorg.conf for my system both from a live image and with CUDA installed; but somehow, it is not willing to use the intel device and avoid the nvidia one.16:53
eyalrozgnarface: Drats! it seems the nvidia installer is actually a binary; and the shell script is just for decompressing the installer before really running it.16:54
_abc_I unplugged and replugged the mouse just to see, it does not help16:54
_abc_Try to use nouveau not nvidia eyalroz16:54
_abc_nvidia is a can of worms as you discovered.16:54
eyalroz_abc_: I'm trying to _not_ use any nvidia-card-related display drivers. Unfortunately I have to, at the same time, use the nVIDIA drivers themselves, since I'm using the GPU for compute work.16:55
_abc_nouveau is the open source reverse engineered version16:56
fsmithredtriple-click then hold down shift and use down arrow highlights multiple lines16:56
_abc_You can always run in VESA mode up to 1024x76816:56
fsmithredhe wants to use the on-board intel video for video, nvidia for crunching numbers16:57
_abc_fsmithred: that is not what I do. Simple double click or triple click highlights, appears in clipboard as expected, with arrow pointing at it, but middle paste pastes the /previously/ pasted item16:57
_abc_fsmithred: ah, iirc there is a PCI level switch for that somewhere. I do not remember the details. Maybe in the "run dual screen" settings?16:58
fsmithredyeah, you have to right-click and paste16:58
eyalroz_abc_: What fsmithred said.16:58
_abc_fsmithred: right click and paste works but middle click direct paste pastes the previous selection, not the current one.16:58
_abc_Wrong, not even right click and Paste pastes the previous selection16:58
fsmithredno, that would paste the current selection16:59
_abc_pasteIt should but it does not16:59
_abc_That is the problem16:59
fsmithredoh, you have to right-click copy first17:00
_abc_I've had this once before but I am stumped as to how it is possible. X11 has a multiple selection mechanism in the server.17:00
_abc_fsmithred: double click-1 is "copy", single click-3 (middle) is paste17:00
fsmithredhm... it's working here. Double-click to highlight a word, go to another tab in text editor and "middle" click (left and right buttons) and it pastes17:04
_abc_I know. It used to work and now it's crazy17:05
fsmithredused to work how long ago?17:06
fsmithredwith a two-button mouse it only works sometimes - have to click both buttons just right17:07
_abc_This morning.17:07
fsmithreddid you change anything today?17:08
_abc_fsmithred: there's a setting in the xserver, usually settable with a gui option too, to determine the allowed delay for mouse chording17:08
_abc_fsmithred: no, the laptop slept while I was away, and had the problem when I got back after a few hours.17:08
fsmithredslept = suspend to ram?17:09
_abc_I'm going to put it to sleep and wake it again, to see. After all, it once ran windows.17:09
_abc_fsmithred: yes17:09
_abc_rebooting heals everything. In theory.17:09
fsmithredmaybe just restart desktop is enough17:09
_abc_I have too many open windows to restart the desktop17:10
_abc_And no it did not help. Drat.17:10
fsmithredyou in xfce?17:10
_abc_I'll see when I de-clutter the system a bit how I can suss out what causes this.17:11
_abc_I think it's in the server not in the desktop17:11
_abc_ maybe-relevant17:12
_abc_Ok, I am not going to do this right now, was hoping for a shortcut.17:13
fsmithredoh, I need to read that page17:13
_abc_There are several on that theme, that one is decent.17:14
fsmithredbut first I need to go paint a door frame. bbl.17:14
_abc_ another view on the same issues. The ICCCM standard linked in the 1st link above is the definitive answer.17:17
_abc_<aside>One wonders whose "free" linux these nice people copied and are flogging for $35+$8P&P with no links to open source / references.
_abc_I assume they copied the more popular ubuntu. not devuan related...17:27
_abc_I raised that link on ##electronics yesterday, there was a mini discussion.17:27
_abc_Good news: using double click selection and middle click paste ONCE in firefox FIXED it.17:29
_abc_I assume ff's internals are more carefully debugged than the innards of other tools I am using and it does the "Right Thing" wrt the multiple selection jungle in X11 explained in the links above.17:30
_abc_to add to the haze fsmithred :
_abc_DonkeyHotei: good one. I assume they print it on paper and send it by courier? :)17:32
* _abc_ will now take a tea and biscottae break17:33
_abc_I report that the middle click paste in terminals is still not okay, only in firefox17:58
_abc_Meaning, the bug, if any, is in xfcr4-terminal which is reasonable as an assumption.17:58
_abc_Please suggest a way to get the id of a X11 window without user interaction, for a xfce4-terminal, from the terminal running, itself.18:08
_abc_xprop and xwininfo do not seem to have an option to show the "current" window they are running in (as a cli in the terminal)18:09
KatolaZ_abc_: lsw18:18
KatolaZa way to get the id of a X11 window18:22
KatolaZit's in suckless-tools18:26
_abc_xdotool getactivewindow does it18:30
_abc_Hi. Again. Suggest a way to switch (activate) a specific tab in xfce4-terminal preferrably using a cli command, not compiled code?18:34
_abc_just finished my single instance irssi under xfce4-terminal script, with window raise etc:
_abc_ fixed, v1, launches it's own xterm19:43
_abc_ fixed v1.1 small bash scripting fixes with help from #bash -- final, done20:05
_abc_moving on, bbl20:05
_abc_fsmithred: re: selection and such: xsel is a cli tool which permits access to the x server's selection as it is currently.20:48
xrogaanKatolaZ: I just noticed dbus got an update, and that there is no changelog provided for the packages managed by devuan. Is it a limitation of the mirror system?20:50
xrogaanI also noticed a difference in version between debian's dbus and devuan's dbus (1.10.26-0+deb9u1 vs 1.10.22-1+devuan2). Are we staying on .22 on purpose? I'm asking because I'm curious :)20:52
xrogaanalso, why is it so hard to get information through the interface?20:58
fsmithred_abc_, thanks. I was trying to remember that command.20:59
golinuxxrogaan: What info are you trying to get that you couldn't get here?21:16
_abc_golinux: likely a normal "list of projects" alphabetical or whatever. I only see a huge page of icons and vague textes describing the items.21:21
xrogaangolinux: relative to? If it's about, I find everything related to the lists quite confusing.21:23
golinuxxrogaan: Sorry I wandered off22:04
golinuxI agree about the Dyne site -  not well organized, poor navigation etc.  Previous iterations were more accessible.   I don't even like to send people to the Dyne site anymore.22:06
_abc_My opinion: they at dyne went windows 10 look and feel. Barf.22:19
_abc_Ok time to go and zzz a bit soon22:19
golinux<_abc_> My opinion: they at dyne went windows 10 look and feel. Barf.22:35
golinuxI can't imagine that anyone at dyne even knows what Win 10 looks like.  It's it that stupid mobile design - one long page with lots of images and no info that looks dreadful on a real computer..22:36
epergnygolinux: at one point my bank's website went "mobile first" but it was basically "mobile only" and suddenly I had a tiny rectangle for input/ouptut in the middle of a big blank webpage. Was completely silly.22:56
epergnygolinux: they fixed it since then22:56
Nematocystdid an apt-upgrade today and X didn't start. after dbus-x11 and related files updated. startx from shell works, but slim.log gives: slim: open_session: Unable to open session: Failed to execute program org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit: Permission denied23:29
Nematocystugh.  checking for newer updates 'apt update' partially fails with: Error: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Spawn.ExecFailed: Failed to execute program org.freedesktop.PackageKit: Permission denied23:38
xrogaandid you reboot?23:39
xrogaanwell, I don't know. I use lightdm23:39
xrogaanwith elogind23:40
golinuxNematocyst: Sounds like a session management mismatch. Have you read the release note?23:50
sokanAnyone has any idea about a good VPN provider? To cover IP etc23:50
Nematocystgolinux, well i see that XFCE uses slim + consolekit.  i'm using slim + elogind.  but i haven't changed those since installing devuan.  just booted after doing updates earlier today.23:55
Nematocystbeen running ascii since it came out.  though possibly i did an upgrade from whatever devuan 1 was called.  don't remember23:57
golinuxTry it with console kit.23:58
golinuxAfter all these months I still am confused what session manager needs what backend23:59
epergnygolinux: that's why I use none ^ ^23:59
Nematocystgolinux, hm.  maybe i don't know what i'm using.  dmesg has entries that begin with elogind.  but 'apt install consolekit' says it is at the latest version23:59

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