freenode/#devuan/ Sunday, 2019-03-17

Nematocystoh great. can't run synaptic.  probably due to the above gdbus error mentioned above.00:02
Nematocysti hate these kind of problems.  i don't know jack about X00:03
golinuxepergny: Yeah, it's a royal pain mostly thanks to having to deal with systemd dependencies00:05
golinuxAre you still on ascii?00:06
Nematocystme?  that's what /etc/issue says.  haven't done a system upgrade00:07
Nematocystthat's what everything in sources.list says00:08
golinuxOr did you upgrade to beowulf which is a bit of a hairball due to merged /usr, no more gksu and other annoyances.00:08
golinuxOK.  I have no idea then.00:08
Nematocysti think i'll revert the dbus related security updates, reboot and see00:09
rrqNematocyst: there's a version confusion with slim which you might have hit with your upgrade00:10
rrqyou should use 1.3.6-5+devuan6, which is the "bestest" version right now00:11
rrqunfortunately that's a lower version code than ascii's 1.3.6-5.1+devuan200:11
rrqeven though it's temporally later00:11
Nematocysthm.  my slim version is 1.3.6-5.1+devuan2 since feb 1300:12
rrqyoah. I'm not sure that does elogind.. does it?00:13
Nematocystno idea.  nothing display related is my thing.  oh.  feb 13, 201800:13
rrq1.3.6-5+devuan6 is in experimental ... still being tested, but good afaik (I'm using it)00:14
rrq(doesn't say much of course)00:14
Nematocysti don't know where to download the dbus packages that were replaced00:27
rrqmmm that slim should be fine with the ascii versions... have  dbus=1.10.22-1+devuan100:30
rrqwhich packages?00:31
Nematocystthese are what i need:
Nematocystthey are all devuan2 atm00:34
rrqthat's all ascii/main00:34
Nematocystso how to downgrade them?00:34
rrqah; bad advice from me: when using "experimental" as a source.list point you *must* also add a Pin to it!!00:35
xrogaanwhat replaces gksu?00:35
Nematocysti don't have anything experimental, btw00:35
fsmithredpkexec is the "replacement" for gksu, but it's more complicated00:36
rrqwell all those dbus -devuan2 packages are from experimental00:36
rrqsame version but -devuan1 are ascii/main00:36
Nematocystrrq, here's my sources.list.  shouldn't that just be stable?
fsmithredI have 1.10.22-1+devuan2 in a live iso I made an hour ago00:38
xrogaanNematocyst: you shouldn't use pkgmaster00:39
rrqNematocyst: yes those don't point out experimental. Do you have anything in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/* ?00:39
xrogaancp /etc/apt/sources.list /etc/apt/sources.list.backup && sed -i 's/pkgmaster/deb/g' /etc/apt/sources.list00:40
* rrq just realized I should apt-get update before talking....00:40
Nematocystonly two things in sources.list.d.  one for palemoon browser, and the other completely commented since may 201800:41
* rrq still updating. Oz is far away :)00:43
fsmithredblocked tubes?00:43
fsmithredI assumed you could use more than one tube at a time00:44
fsmithredor that the path went through many tubes (traceroute supports this theory)00:45
Nematocystso going offline is what, getting your tubes tied?00:45
fsmithredlive-iso gets a new dbus/machine-id on every boot now! :) :) :)00:45
fsmithredmetal test next00:46
rrqwho is providing remote dbus services? anyone?00:46
fsmithredI don't understand the question00:47
rrqthat machine-id is used for dbus to distinguish between local and remote comm's00:47
fsmithredthere's a new version today that fixes a potential problem00:47
fsmithredyou can set it to be static in /etc/default/dbus00:48
fsmithred(power of choice)00:48
rrqso I was wondering (while updating) who is using dbus remotely?00:48
fsmithredno idea00:48
fsmithredum, does vnc over ssh count?00:48
rrqwouldn't think so00:49
rrqwhat's the dbus port?00:49
fsmithrednever heard of it00:50
rrq(still 35 min's to go...)00:52
fsmithrednew dbus feature works on metal too.00:52
fsmithredjust to update the cache, or is it downloading packages now?00:53
rrqit's currently doing Contents for beowul/main00:53
rrqbeowulf/main i386 I meant00:54
rrqanyhow, surely someone must do remote dbus comm's, since it has this bunch of code to recognize it...00:56
furrywolf... it needs a machine id to figure out if it's local or remote?  :)00:58
furrywolfhow about just hacking it to use "local" whenever it reads the local machine id, and to send "remote" whenever it sends to another machine?  :)00:59
furrywolfor, even better, having the receiving code used a fixed "remote" machine id whenever it gets a remote message, to prevent impersonating a local connection.00:59
rrqNematocyst: I'm still at least half an hour away from continuing...01:01
Nematocystrrq, i'm not even sure i want to downgrade.  i guess to be 100% sure those updates were the problem.  but i figure there's just a bug that will get addressed soon enough.  not the end of the world to login console and issue startx01:03
rrqfair enough01:03
Nematocystof course, there's the issue of 'apt update' partially failing due to these issues... ii do actually need to be able to update. heh01:07
rrqNematocyst: check which is my current 'apt-cache policy' result for your packages01:20
rrqI'm still updating though; those would be as of some month ago, but they suggest all those -devuan2 versions come from experimental.01:22
Nematocysti don't know how to obtain the old packages.  i think downgrading is preferable b/c of: Error: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Spawn.ExecFailed: Failed to execute program org.freedesktop.PackageKit: Permission denied when trying apt update.01:51
rrqok. I'm wrong. The -devuan2 packages are now in ascii/main .. hmm01:51
Nematocystprobem is i rgularly clean my apt cache just to save backup space.  i do have a recent backup with the old stuff installed.  just the apt cache is empty01:52
rrqyes. hmm. let's see what the iso has...01:55
Nematocystmaybe that's easiest.  restore the backup, omitting /home...01:56
sokanI'm in love with dev1 so far :302:01
rrqNematocyst: ok, my devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_cd-1.iso has dbus_1.10.22-1+devuan1_amd64.deb if that's your platform.02:03
Nematocystrrq can't i just pin the earlier version and update it?02:04
rrqmaybe. we're straddling the borderline of my knowledge :)02:05
Nematocystok.  my backup is Mar 2.  i think i'll just use that, omitting /home02:06
rrqI'm a little surprised that the ascii/main version has changed; esp as it's a devuan package. But I'm not a process fundamentalist, and anyhow, I haven't read any release process documentation to begin with...02:08
Nematocystback of my mind says this is something gonna cause issues for several ppl, thus spawning a fix + exact instructions... makes me want to ignore it for now02:09
rrqif you find the deb's, I think you could "dpkg -i" them, and pin the versions02:10
rrqyes, I certainly won't upgrade my work horse for a while02:12
fsmithredyou want to keep the older versions?02:12
Nematocystprobably not.  once things are fixed.02:13
fsmithredto downgrade you would do something like 'apt-get install dbus=1.0.whatever02:13
fsmithredand same for the other packages you want02:13
Nematocystsays not found02:14
fsmithredbut you'd still need to pin them02:14
fsmithredlemme try02:14
fsmithredok, do you have the older packages in /var/cache/apt/archives?02:15
Nematocystheh.  no.  that's why i assume02:15
fsmithredI do. You want them?02:16
Nematocystclean my cache prior to backups...  might have to stop that02:16
fsmithredyou actually have to change configs to get apt to keep the packages now02:16
Nematocystfsmithred, yeah.  do you have the i386 and amd64 version of libdbus-1-3?02:18
fsmithredjust amd6402:18
Nematocysti had a pastebin with all the ones i needed earlier.  but i restarted chat02:18
Nematocysti'll restore from backup then.  thanks02:18
fsmithredI think it was 4 packages02:18
rrqlibdbus-1-dev:amd64 dbus-x11:amd64 libdbus-1-3:i386 libdbus-1-3:amd64 dbus:amd6402:20
Nematocystmoment of truth.  reboot time02:23
Nematocystwell that was mostly painless.  just have to update streamlink again...02:25
Nematocystcan you pin multiple packages in one pref file?02:31
rrqyes, put a blank line between them02:32
rrqbetween the "stanzas" I mean02:32
rrqmmm maybe many packages on same line with space works too...02:33
fsmithredI think either globbing or regex works. Not sure which.02:36
Nematocysti didn't have much luck pinning it.  for the time being, i'm content to install other updates manually, on the theory this problem i'm having is temporary and that no pin is ultimately needed03:10
rrqNematocyst: possibly the terminology should: to *hold* the packages rather than "pin" them.03:42
rrqyou'd use eg "apt-mark hold dbus" for that; holds that package at its current version.03:43
Nematocystrrq, perfect.  that works well03:44
sokanhey. Is it possible to have KDE installed but without sddm?12:45
furrymcgeesddm is the default x-desktop-manager installed with task-kde-desktop, there are other display managers aptitude search ~Px-display-manager12:56
sokanfurrymcgee: I was thinking of logging in via xinit only and get away from any dm15:58
KatolaZsokan: you can do that in ascii, but please read the release notes16:15
sokanwill do KatolaZ :)16:15
sokanceres is rolling as in arch/gentoo or pure chaotic unstable?16:33
sokanhad a talk with a friend about rolling releases and mentioned that dev1 can turned to rolling as well16:34
KatolaZsokan: who said that?16:35
sokanthat's a false acusation?16:36
KatolaZsokan: I don't get what you mean16:36
sokanKatolaZ: arch and others are rolling releases. devuan, ubuntu etc are stable (afaik). Is Ceres rolling in the arch way?16:37
sokanAs in not needing a massive upgrade after 2 years or something16:38
KatolaZsokan: debian/devuan is not a "stable" release16:38
KatolaZit's just non-rolling16:38
KatolaZin de??an a stable release only gets security updates16:38
KatolaZso no new versions of the software16:38
sokanok. I see16:39
sokanSo difference between say ASCII, Beowulf and ceres is?16:39
KatolaZascii is stable16:39
KatolaZbeowulf is more or less the equivalent of debian testing16:39
sokanso no new software and only security updates?16:40
KatolaZno new versions or new packages in a stable release16:40
KatolaZall the development in Debian happens in unstable16:40
KatolaZnew packages are uploaded always to unstable16:40
KatolaZthen, if they are behaving well, they are moved to testing after a period (normally 10 days)16:41
sokantesting is "in development"?16:41
KatolaZtesting will become the new stable16:43
KatolaZthe process involves a period called "freeze"16:43
KatolaZduring which testing does not receive any new packages or package versions16:43
KatolaZonly bug fixes16:43
KatolaZat the end of freeze, testing becomes the new stable16:44
KatolaZand the whole unstable branch becomes the new testing16:44
sokanaha. so eventually beowulf will become the new stable and ceres the new testing etc16:45
KatolaZceres will always remain unstable16:45
sokanoooooh. I see16:45
KatolaZas sid will always be unstable in Debian16:45
sokanand kernel change comes when exactly? Update to a newer version16:54
KatolaZsokan: which kernel change?17:10
sokancurrent version is 4.9.0. When does a bump occur?17:21
KatolaZin ascii?17:23
KatolaZoh forget the .017:23
KatolaZthat's just the package name :)17:23
KatolaZit's 4.9.110 I guess17:24
KatolaZsokan: sorry, it's actually 4.9.14417:24
KatolaZapt-cache show linux-image-4.9.0-8-amd6417:25
sokanokey doke17:29
sokanand in ceres one can upgrade the kernel as well?17:29
sokansay from 4.9.x to 4.1117:29
KatolaZsokan: if you need a newer kernel in ascii, just use the one from ascii-backports17:30
KatolaZascii-backports (as any stable-backports) includes some updated packages17:31
KatolaZnormally coming directly from unstable17:31
KatolaZbut guaranteed to work well on stable17:31
sokanIf I go ceres, the system will most probably break at all times?17:32
KatolaZsokan: it might not break as in totally broken17:34
KatolaZbut you need to know your way around De??an if you want to use sid17:34
KatolaZwell, unstable in general17:34
KatolaZtesting is a good compromise17:34
KatolaZbut YMMV17:34
sokanhow can I check which packages are in ceres and in beowulf?17:35
KatolaZwhat do you mean exactly?17:35
KatolaZeach of them have 55k+packages....17:35
KatolaZthat can be a good place to start17:35
KatolaZ(please consider that atm reports only packages in amd64)17:35
sokanthanks for the info KatolaZ . You've been MORE than helpful and informative ^^17:36
sokanKatolaZ: one final question: I can install (amd64 .deb package) and install it on devuan as well?17:40
KatolaZit's your call sokan17:41
sokanit is possible right?17:42
gnarfacesokan: risky business17:43
gnarfacei advise against mixing distro packages in general17:43
gnarfaceyou'll probably get away with it, but if something goes wrong it's likely to be the type of thing that unravels your whole install sometime later after you've forgotten about this17:44
gnarfaceif the package doesn't have any dependencies though, it's probably fine17:44
KatolaZsokan: with third party repos you are on your own, as in Debian17:44
sokanokey doke. :)17:44
gnarfacein my experience, usually it works, but then breaks some future upgrade of everything else, in an unrecoverable way17:45
gnarfaceso you know... if you decide to do it, make a backup first17:45
KatolaZwell, nothing is unrecoverable in De??an :)17:46
gnarfaceok that's technically true but practically ... eh, it sometimes can be such a mess it's actually faster to reinstall17:46
gnarfaceand i personally don't know how to manually correct all the package dependencies at that point17:46
KatolaZwith pins gnarface17:47
gnarfaceplus who even knows what the preinst/postinst scripts do...17:47
KatolaZpins can make magic17:47
KatolaZwith pins you can also downgrade a beowulf to jessie17:47
gnarfaceoh hmmm.  heavy pinning ... interesting ida17:47
KatolaZI have done it several times17:48
KatolaZfrom one release to the one before17:48
gnarfacesokan: as they used to tell me in #debian... if you break it you get to keep all the pieces, and you're entitled to a full refund :)17:49
KatolaZas long as the packages are still in the repo ;)17:49
sokangnarface:haha good one17:49
sokanthe main issue with that plex is that it's systemd I think... So it'sll painful to get it to work under sysvinit/openr17:50
KatolaZsokan: the only way to be sure something won't work is by proving it won't work ;)17:51
sokanscientific method :P17:52
sokandamn it! why couldn't it be in main repos XD17:52
gnarfacesokan: do they have a src package available?  you could try to build it against devuan deps, without systemd.  sometimes that's possible17:52
KatolaZsokan: it's quite possible it is non-free software?17:53
sokanyeh... :\17:53
sokanplayer is open, server isn't17:53
KatolaZthat's why than17:53
sokanstupid closed-source17:54
gnarfacewhat is plex?  is there a free alternative?17:54
gnarfaceoh, media server17:54
gnarfacethere's tons of those17:54
gnarfaceman don't even bother with it17:54
sokangnarface: nothing that's really on part with it atm. It's a media server with streaming and transcoding capabilities17:54
gnarfacei do that with ffmpeg and bash ...17:55
sokanbut I"m all ear with alternatives17:55
gnarfacemythtv is popular17:55
gnarfacevlc is janky but also has such features17:55
unixman_homeYeah, I was wondering what does Plex provide that MythTV doesn't?17:56
gnarfacei don't know plex, maybe it's got a really nice interface, but i'm sure you can still get the job done with stuff that is in the repo17:57
KatolaZsokan: there is really plenty of them17:57
KatolaZeven vlc can do streaming nd transcoding online17:57
gnarfacethe only problem i had with vlc was just that it's not smart enough to know when you're giving it impossible transcoding settings.  it'll try it and just choke...17:58
gnarfaceso you have to know what your encoders and decoders can do17:58
gnarfacebut they do have some info on their website about compatibilities17:58
KatolaZyeah indeed17:59
gnarfaceformat/container/codec compatibilities, and such.  there's a whole chart on their site17:59
KatolaZthat's a nightmare :D17:59
gnarfacethat's why i ended up just streaming with ffmpeg directly18:00
gnarfaceby the time i'd figured out enough about vlc i didn't need it anymore18:00
gnarfacebut that's personal preference, entirely subjective18:00
gnarfacei like bash scripts18:00
gnarfacesokan: hmmm.... i'm seeing something in the repo called "pipewire" too18:20
gnarfacemight be useful, i don't know18:21
gnarfacei'm also seeing icecast2, but i thought that was for music only18:21
gnarfaceit's been a long time since i tried it though18:22
sokanah! correction: that plex package is for debian 8+ as well20:58
sokanI just realized20:59
sokanthere's also erm20:59
sokanwhat was the name again20:59
DonkeyHoteivlc will also stream to icecast iirc21:02
furrymcgeedo /etc/mtab and /run/shm exist in devuan?21:22
gnarfaceyour go missing?21:35
furrymcgeeyes in debian with sysvinit21:36
furrymcgeewhat packages creates this files in devuan21:36
gnarfacenot sure honestly21:38
gnarfacethe kernel, or udev21:38
gnarfacei would think21:38
gnarfaceif you have a custom kernel, maybe you forgot something?21:39
gnarface /dev/shm might be something that could have been disabled in sysctl.conf too21:40
gnarfaceor a kernel command-line parameter, or something...21:40
furrymcgeeI mean what package is creating the links, not the /dev /proc files21:42
gnarfacenot sure about that either but if it's not the kernel or udev, it's gotta be something in the startup scripts21:43
furrymcgeether is /usr/lib/tmpfiles.d/debian.conf in debian21:43
gnarfacei think /etc/mtab is created by sysv-rc21:46
gnarfaceat boot time21:46
gnarfacedid you change your init system?21:47
furrymcgeeyes there is a shell function mtab_migrate, thank you21:52
sokanhow can I migrate from ascii to ceres? (or even beowolf)23:19
Evilhamceres ~~ sid on debian, that means, thints do break sometimes23:21
Evilhamif you want to migrate to beowulf, you should just change your  sources.list23:21
Evilhamand point them to beowulf (if you use testing, you'll be pulled to next testing once beowulf is released, so you better use codenames and change manually)23:22
Evilhamcheck here:
sokanso it's only a nvim /etc/apt/sources.list and s/ascii/beowulf?23:23
rrq.. except that there is no beowulf-backports23:26
sokanit's to be expected I reckon :P23:29
Evilhamyup, there's nothing speciall about it :-D23:30
Evilhamjust usual disclaimer: beowulf is not out-out yet, so upgrading is not necessarily painless, that being said, many people have experienced painless transition, so anything odd that happens should be reported23:31
sokanwill keep it in mind :)23:33
sokanI'm used to living on the edge so... I can't go "stable" now XD23:34
sokanEvilham: I presume going ceres is more complex than the above23:44
EvilhamNot really23:47
EvilhamJust riskier23:47
sokangoing to check it out now. Anything I should be extra careful before trying it out? :P23:53

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