freenode/#devuan/ Friday, 2019-04-05

XenguyFriendlyMan, Hello, are you a giant?03:45
XenguyPardon the whimsy, but of course03:50
mlsmithXenguy, I had to look that up. Never seen the show.03:52
XenguyIt's in the past, for sure03:53
XenguyLook up... Look waaaaayyyyyyyyy up03:53
XenguyHe was the most friendly and chill giant ever03:54
mlsmithYeah that is an old show. It ended the year after I was born.03:54
XenguyYou could have worse people influencing your child ; -)03:54
XenguyI adored Rusty (the rooster?)03:54
XenguyAnyhow, dating myself here, as it were03:55
mlsmithHaha, no worries. age = experience & wisdom03:56
XenguyI'm still a sprite it turns out, mwuhaha03:57
XenguyI'm all for wisdom though03:57
XenguyIf we can't learn from mistakes, what's the point?03:57
mlsmithAre all sprites mischievous?03:57
XenguyIt's a hotly debated topic!03:58
XenguyBut yes, I think so03:58
XenguyIt goes with the territory03:58
furrywolfI've heard of it, but never seen it...  never been a tv fan.03:58
Xenguy.oO( Are we off-topic yet ? )03:58
mlsmithIs there an off-topic channel?03:59
Xenguyfurrywolf, TV was, and is, shite, but some of us got brainwashed by it before people knew it was a negative influence03:59
Xenguymlsmith, debianfork04:00
XenguyC'mon down04:00
mlsmithOkee dokee04:00
furrywolfXenguy: ... I haven't noticed that happening yet.04:00
furrywolfthat is, people still don't seem to think it's a negative influence.04:01
XenguyLike Jules said, "It's all Koolio and the Gang"04:01
fsmithredpanorain, if you have a question, ask, and eventually someone will answer.07:29
panorainfsmithred: Thank You07:57
emdetehi, can i install a minimal booting (to shell) system to hd with netinst when network is not available?10:20
Digitis devuan conf gonna have live streams to watch?11:05
Digitoop, asked too soon, just read down to that.  yep.11:06
tuxd3vHello Freedom lovers out there11:24
fsmithredis it still without audio, or do I have a problem here?11:46
golinuxWhere are you?11:46
fsmithredat Cor's11:47
fsmithredgonna leave here soon and come to bridge11:47
golinuxEveryone is asking including parazyd11:47
fsmithredbe about an hour11:48
golinuxYou feeling better?11:48
fsmithreda little. I slept well.11:48
djph"it'll be livestreamed...", well where?11:48
fsmithredum, ok. Maybe I'm not really awake. I was just looking for my laptop to put it in the bag.,11:49
djphfriday april 6 2019 <-- uh guys, you're off by a day ...11:50
parazyddjph: #devuan-conf11:52
parazydSee /topic11:52
djphheh, i actually meant to paste that in a different window :|11:56
djphwhere'd me coffee go11:56
fsmithredoh, I pasted the wrong link. Use this one instead:
fsmithredon my way...12:01
premobosshi, i use the last version of devuan on amd4. everytime i start devuan, no audio present. i must go to pulseaudio control, turn of internal audio and then set the volume level i want. the problem is the system dont take memory of changes an i have to do every time i turn on the system. hany help?12:41
plasma41premoboss: The internals of pulseaudio are anything but simple. I wish I could help, but unfortunately that's outside my area of expertise.12:48
* Digit regrets he'll be asleep before he gets a stream download set up... will have to catch it later12:59
specingCan't you people just build stuff without pulseaudio?13:00
djphheh, they're too busy de-systemd-ifying the whole mess.  pulse is next13:01
specingthere was an interesting proposal a few weeks ago: to have Gentoo's portage operate on top of debian source packages13:06
plasma41specing: Where was this?13:07
specingin one of the gentoo channels13:07
specingI personally think portage needs a redesign, just resolving dependencies on my gentoo systems takes north of 15 minutes (core2duo)13:08
* Digit wonders ... paludis13:09
specingthere are two replacemtns for portage: paludis and pkgcore13:09
specingbut so far ... portage is yet to be replaced13:10
Digit"ERROR: m3u8 download detected but ffmpeg or avconv could not be found. Please install one."   gentoo's installing it!  gentoo's installing it!   calm down youtube-dl!  it'll be ready when it's ready.  ;313:14
Digiti am still fond of portage tho.  :)13:14
Digitmore fond of it than any other.   (tho the stuff guix gets up to is worth investigating)13:15
plasma41Guix is pretty cool. I've been meaning to try it out.13:16
Digita novel accompanyment to any distro.13:17
specingDigit: it used to be that ./configure took the longest, now its dependencies > configure > compile13:18
specingwith exceptions of some C++ shits (libreoffice, kicad, firefox), compile time is <30% total time13:19
premobossplasma41, ok no prob.13:20
golinuxspecing wrote: Can't you people just build stuff without pulseaudio?13:31
golinuxDo you want to be that person?13:31
specingdunno, I haven't yet decided whether to switch to devuan or centos or continue suffering on gentoo13:32
plasma41avoid centos if you want to avoid systemd13:33
specingplasma41: centos has something devuan doesen't: SELinux13:38
MinceRgood thing devuan doesn't have that13:39
specingwhy MinceR ?13:39
MinceRextra bloat in the name of "security", carrying its own risks13:39
plasma41really? I just assumed SELinux was in Debian13:39
MinceRafaik it was already discovered to have at least one vulnerability which a SELinux-less system wouldn't have13:40
MinceRand to top it off, (almost?) nobody can write a policy for it13:40
MinceRiirc even red hat's distros had policy issues even though it's their thing13:40
dethaMinceR: selinux is pretty magic. And against 1 vuln, I have been able to say 'haha, doesn't affect my C6 boxes because of selinux, patching can wait until normal scheduled downtime' many times.13:45
detha(and writing policies is pretty simple nowadays. It was an issue in the early days, when tooling was primitive)13:46
specingI'm impressed by SELinux13:47
specingtry rooting >5.0.0 android phones13:47
specinggo to xda developers and you'll see how rooting-by-exploit drops after SELinux was introduced13:47
specingit works and it works well13:48
MinceRin that case, i can recommend rHELL to you14:04
MinceRit has more of these intricate and beautiful complexities :>14:05
dethaHeh. There are two things wrong with RHEL: systemd, and the fact that towards EOL of a release the base packages become really ancient.14:08
djphdetha: so, the same problems that Debian has these days :)14:12
plasma41"towards EOL of a release the base packages become really ancient" -- that's true of every LTS distro14:13
dethaOnly half. RH has a pretty hard policy of 'No major version bumps in any package'14:13
dethaAnd because RH attempts to be a 'stable' distribution, they already start with old-ish packages every release14:14
sxpertthere are 2 versions of debian... "stale" and "usable"14:15
MinceRinteresting method of getting to a "stable" distribution, building it all on a piece of software that isn't even nearly mature and probably never will14:20
dethaIt works. Until they started giving in to the 'we need newer packages' cries, in >10 years RH/centos I have only had one case where an upgrade broke prod14:22
MinceRyeah, except when it just doesn't14:25
MinceRlike when it freezes on shutdown, or when it forgets to start a service or two at boot14:25
MinceRor it waits for some network resource or filesystem forever at boot14:25
MinceRi don't know how anyone gets to call a distro release that ships with systemd "stable" with a straight face14:26
dethaThat would be 7.x. We have never put 7 in prod, and even 6 can be made unstable by using SCL stuff.14:28
jellyplasma41: yes and no.  RH care about some select packages, you15:02
jellywill always have latest lvm and device-mapper even on EL6 or EL5 if you keep it up to date15:03
jellyCanonical push Firefox release branch into LTS.15:03
jellyand both have customers that nag if things break15:04
jellydetha: "no major version bumps" really means "we'll introduce new features going from 2.101 to 2.103"15:05
dethatrue. different upstreams have different ideas about what a point version means15:08
MinceRmost customers seem to be OK with broken things15:09
MinceRespecially apple and microsoft customers15:09
dethaRH tries to stick to 'if it worked on x.0, it should still work unchanged on x.1515:09
dethaWhich is a good thing for systems that are certified at 'Using ELx, OS needs to be kept patched, any changes to app means re-certification'15:11
SigmaTelHello! I have a problem with "nvidia-driver" in Devuan ASCII 2.0.0 (amd64, kernel version 4.9.0-8). In the beginning of the init process I get error message from udevd: "Error running install command for nvidia". Is there a way to resolve it?16:29
SigmaTelMy GPU is NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050.16:30
gnarfaceSigmaTel: just a guess but maybe you're missing the linux-headers-amd64 package (or linux-headers-i386, depending)16:32
SigmaTelgnarface: linux-headers-amd64 for this kernel is present and installed.16:33
ashleykyo yo yo16:35
ashleykubuntu 18.10 seems to detect the network card on this intel NUC, but devuan ascii netinstall couldnt16:35
ashleykwat do16:35
plasma41ashleyk: What's the pci id of the nic?16:36
SigmaTelDoes netinstaller request firmware or else?16:36
ashleykplasma41, let me check16:36
gnarfaceSigmaTel: anything else to that error from nvidia-driver?16:37
ashleyk00:1F.6   I219-V Rev3016:37
SigmaTelgnarface: It does start up nvidia-drm afterwards.16:38
SigmaTeludevd's error with nvidia module is the first message during init process.16:39
plasma41ashleyk: what's the hexidecimal Vender_ID:Product_ID from the output of the `lspci -nn` command?16:40
gnarfaceSigmaTel: is nouveau not blacklisted?16:40
ashleykplasma41, 8086:15be ?16:41
SigmaTelIt is blacklisted.16:41
SigmaTelglxinfo -i says "X Error of failed request: BadValue".16:41
gnarfaceall this should work16:43
gnarfacedunno what you meant about nvidia-drm though, i don't have that here16:43
gnarfacei don't think that's the part we're overlooking here though16:43
gnarfacecan you think of anything else weird about the hardware or the install?16:45
SigmaTelI have fresh installation of Devuan.16:45
gnarfacehmm. i wonder if that 1050 is actually new enough you need the backports kernel and nvidia-drivers16:45
gnarfacei wouldn't have expected the hardware to fail though16:46
gnarfaceer, the install command16:46
gnarfacei would expect it to error later16:46
SigmaTelIt errors right after the startup.16:46
gnarfaceanything in dmesg?16:47
SigmaTelThat *is* dmesg.16:47
plasma41ashleyk: Those are the IDs I need. Unfortunately I can't find reference to that nic in the database.16:47
gnarfaceSigmaTel: sorry i didn't look at your jpg.  i can't be that cavalier about what i click on.  try instagram16:48
SigmaTelI don't use Instagram, I don't need it.16:49
plasma41ashleyk: What kernel version are you running?16:54
ashleykplasma41, 4.18.0-17-generic  March 13 201916:56
ashleykanyway, im up and running...may just have to roll with this because of time constraints16:57
ashleykoh...while im thinking about it....17:00
ashleykwhat is the deal with having ethernet and wifi both connected to the same network/subnet, and why cant i ever get it to work right (especially dhcp makes the devices start trading ip addresses @_@)17:00
SigmaTelgnarface: What do I have to do with this udevd error?17:01
ashleykseems like dhcp renew responses come into the wrong network17:01
ashleykoriginally i was going to force a setup where ifplugd will make only one active at a time (plug in wifi adapter and ethernet shuts off), but this new board has both wifi and ethernet at all times, so no option to limit it that way17:02
gnarfaceSigmaTel: no idea, just based on the information you've given me, but to be clear, i haven't seen the jpg17:02
ashleykare there nightly install images with newer kernels i should try though, before i ...deploy ubuntu17:04
gnarfaceashleyk: backports17:05
* SigmaTel sighs17:05
ashleykgnarface, what does that mean17:05
gnarfaceashleyk: there are newer kernels available in ascii-backports, along with newer mesa, nvidia-drivers, and several other things.  threatening to install ubuntu won't get you a different suggestion.17:06
buZz> 17:00:55 < ashleyk> what is the deal with having ethernet and wifi both connected17:06
ashleykno, i already installed ubuntu, i just dont have a lot of time17:06
buZzif you do so, you get two default routes for the same network17:06
plasma41ashleyk: might be worth a shot17:06
buZzover two different interfaces17:07
ashleykplasma41, thanks17:07
ashleykbuZz, i just know its screwy and..i dont know if there is a way to fix it...slackware didn't seem to have the problem but i cant figure out why17:07
buZzashleyk: wicd is really nice for network interface management , imho17:08
buZzit can disconnect wifi on eth connection, at least17:08
ashleykmy software writes /etc/network/interfaces17:08
buZzprobably also the reverse17:08
gnarfaceSigmaTel: did you install nvidia-kernel-dkms?  there might still be missing nvidia-* packages17:08
buZzoh ok, wicd actually manages the interfaces17:08
ashleykbuZz, yeah, i need programmatic control...17:08
buZzyes, wicd is a program :P17:09
gnarfaceSigmaTel: (nvidia-kernel-dkms is the thing that needs linux-headers-amd64)17:09
SigmaTelIt depends on nvidia-driver, so it it installed.17:09
SigmaTelit is*17:09
gnarfaceand linux-headers-amd64 was already installed before that?17:10
ashleykis this normal? This server could not prove that it is; its security certificate is from This may be caused by a misconfiguration or an attacker intercepting your connection.17:10
SigmaTelYep, for 4.9.0-8 amd64.17:10
gnarfaceashleyk: their https is messed up i think17:10
SigmaTelMaybe I need CUDA thing installed also?17:11
plasma41I think is one of the mirrors in the round-robin17:11
ashleykall good, im downloading17:12
SigmaTelI notice that nvidia-driver-libs-nonglvnd is installed but the nvidia-driver-libs.17:12
ashleykbuZz, do you know what directive or rule i need to prevent that?...17:14
ashleyklike whatever wicd is doing, i should be able to do it manually.....somehow17:14
buZzto prevent what?17:15
buZzsetting a route?17:15
ashleykwhatever is causing screwyness when ethernet and wifi are dhcp on the same network subnet17:15
buZzscrewyness? it should cause any issues17:16
buZzwhat exact issues are you seeing?17:16
ashleykthe most obvious one is that when a dhcp renew happens (lease expires) the devices will either get new ips or trade ips17:16
buZzyou cant prevent 'whatever' , you need to define what you want :P17:16
ashleykso wlan will switch ips with eth017:16
buZzashleyk: thats a dhcp server config17:16
buZzit should be giving the -same- leases to the -same- mac addresses17:16
ashleykis it?  or is the renew response coming into the wrong device17:17
buZzand not flip them around willynilly17:17
ashleykso it could be my router being dumb17:17
buZzcould be, yeah17:17
ashleykor my dhclient17:17
ashleykbuZz, see what this guy says, but of course he doesnt expound on it:
ashleykregarding /etc/network/interfaces: "It's not complicated if you know what you are doing, if you know where to get info (i.e. reading man pages over who knows how old tutorials) and know what to expect from it, especially if you have 2 interfaces (i.e. wired+wireless) connected to the same network."17:22
buZzashleyk: i dont get wtf that forumthread is about17:22
buZzmy best tip would be ; never use NetworkManager , its -hell-17:23
buZzand dumb as f17:23
ashleykoh yeah i know... im going to find out if its just my dhcp server causing the issue as soon as possible, i dont want to use anything other than e/n/i17:24
ashleykok trying this mini.iso on the intel nuc to see if i can run devuan within my time constraints17:25
ashleykyup! this mini.iso detected the network, and also told me which firmware was missing for the wifi!  thanks17:29
ashleykit says it cant find kernel modules, but im going to install it anyway and see what happens17:32
ashleykgnarface, well, it cant detect a disk drive because of missing kernel at least it had ethernet...17:36
gnarfaceashleyk: do you know about backports?17:43
ashleykgnarface, not really17:44
gnarfaceashleyk: i didn't recommend them because it was stupid to do so17:44
gnarfaceashleyk: let me rephrase that:  i wouldn't have recommended them if i didn't think it would work17:44
gnarfaceif ubuntu is working, it's highly unlikely to have anything to do with anything other than their newer kernel17:46
gnarfacewhich is something you can get from backports instead17:46
gnarfacebut only you can decide to do that17:46
ashleykwell the mini iso worked to detect the network card, but it says it couldnt find the kernel modules (in general) and couldnt detect the disk drive17:47
ashleyki guess im not sure how 'backports' is going to help me install17:47
ashleykor id have to install from DVD image, and then copy backports files via flash drive to get online?17:48
gnarfaceyou could complete the netinstall without a network connection, then just copy the newer kernel package and related dependencies over manually17:48
gnarfacewith a usb key or whatever17:48
gnarfaceor the wifi17:49
gnarfaceor another external ethernet device17:49
gnarfacesince you're here in IRC i assume you have a working network connection17:49
gnarfaceor i dunno, maybe that's all too complicated and you'd just be happier running ubuntu.  i really don't think so, and in fact i think having to pretend it does might damage your brain permanently.  but that's your choice to make17:50
ashleykid rather not run ubuntu, but i dont really have a lot of time to try different things.  i didnt know i could finish netinstall without internet17:51
gnarfaceyea it will still leave you with a bootable system if you complete all the steps17:52
ashleykat that point if i had to i could just compile my own kernel17:52
gnarfacethe only thing it couldn't detect was your ethernet right?17:52
gnarfaceif so, it should boot17:53
ashleykthough id have to install lots of crap to compile. heh.   well as far as i know the stock ascii netboot iso just complained about ethernet, i didnt go further17:53
ashleykill try it17:53
gnarfacewhat kernel version was that ubuntu using?17:55
gnarfacebackports has something similar17:56
ashleykyeah the ascii netinstall found the disk, so im installing without ethernet and then ill see what i need to do17:57
ashleyklooking for my usb ethernet adapter in the meantime17:57
gnarfaceheh, yea you should have listed that amongst your assets far sooner than now17:58
gnarfaceashleyk: do you not actually have wireless?  the wifi might be easier to get running in that thing with the stock kernel.18:01
gnarface(usually this isn't the case though)18:01
ashleykgnarface, heh yeah, i was just thinking if the hardware isnt supported by the installer then probably it isnt supported at all yet, but, i found my usb ethernet.  the system does have wifi but its an intel iw9000 or something so, i bet the usb might be easier18:06
gnarfacethe usb device might be easier.  but the wifi device should work with the stock kernel and the firmware-iwlwifi package, afaik18:07
ashleykok ill know in a few minutes, brb18:07
ashleykyeah onboard wifi and ethernet not detected, but usb device came up right away as enx92340238409823418:10
ashleykcool, so i can just compile my own kernel if worst comes to worst18:10
gnarfaceyes, but the backports kernel probably will work18:11
gnarfacefor the wireless you probably need firmware-iwlwifi, which may or may not also have to come from backports18:11
ashleykok, so...i put it in e/n/i and i am online now.  so, do i just uncomment backports lines in /etc/apt/sources.list or w/e?18:13
ashleykive never done this before18:13
gnarfaceyes, first uncomment them18:13
gnarfacethen re-run "apt-get update"18:13
gnarfacethen, you'll have to add "-t ascii-backports" to any further commands where you want to use them18:14
gnarfaceit is recommended to just get what you need then comment it out again18:14
ashleykawesome thanks18:14
ashleykim doing it now18:15
gnarfaceso like "apt-get update && apt-get -t ascii-backports install linux-image-amd64 linux-headers-amd64 firmware-iwlwifi"18:15
gnarfaceif you plan on using opengl and that thing doesn't have a nvidia card, you'll probably want to get mesa from backports too18:15
ashleyknah i dont need graphics18:15
gnarfacebut probably not anything else18:15
ashleykhah, first problem.  /etc/apt/sources.list only has CDROM18:16
gnarfacethere's example backports lines in here
gnarfaceactually example every line18:16
ashleykok great thats what i need18:16
gnarfacehere is an example of what your sources.list should look like without backports18:17
gnarfacejust append the 2 backports lines to that18:17
gnarfacebut again, comment them back out when you're done18:17
ashleykthanks a lot, with any luck ill be good to go soon18:18
gnarfacegood luck18:18
tuxd3vHello freedom lovers out there18:25
tuxd3vGood Afternoon18:25
unixmanGood morning.18:26
ashleykgnarface, it worked, thank you :)18:27
gnarfaceyou're welcome18:28
* Digit wakes, turns on the stream, wonders if he missed it22:47
ashleykDigit, tomorrow22:56
fleekyanyone here tried installing on devuan22:57
Digitthe site says "Starting: Friday, April 5th 2019, 13:00 CEST"... so, was today just people hanging around chatting?22:57
ashleykDigit, seems so22:57 has a debian guide for installing but i am unsure if it would translate to devuan or not22:57
ashleykit should22:58
ashleykjust not the systemd stuff22:59
ashleykfleeky, and i guess some people today would use the "docker image"23:02
ashleykwhatever that is23:02
fleekyfuck a docker image :)23:03
fleekyalright well ill just see if it translates ,,23:03
_abc_Hi. Is there any devuan vs debian choice advantage in choosing a lamp / lampp stack to install on devuan ascii?23:29
Digitso, i'm guessing the stream's started back on a loop...?  or is this still live?23:31
ashleykDigit, nothing is live...heh do you not know how to tell if something is live on youtube?23:32
ashleykthe day zero video says 4 hours old23:32
ashleykand its 40 minutes long23:33
Digitah.  i rarely look at youtube.  i just plug the youtube urls into mpv23:33
ashleykif it was live and you scrolled all the way right, it would show a red thing tht says Live23:33
Digitidk where the 40mins comes from... what i'm seeing is over 2h23:34
ashleykthe 4 day old one?23:34
Digitjust toggled to this 20m ago, and was watching the prior for something near an hour before they switched stream.23:35
ashleykhmmm, not sure...i dont see anything23:35
Digit is what i plugged into mpv.  was when it started, now
ashleykyeah thats from april 1st23:36
Digitnothing much happening but mulling around and prep... looks like a talks about to start tho.. looks like it might indeed be the morning.23:36
Digitokies.  as you first said then.  :/   "tomorrow"23:39
ashleykDigit, #devuan-conf23:40
Digitthanks.   (tho methinks could have done with mention of that chan in ( )  or in the topic here)23:45
Digitoops!  i missed it is in the topic here.23:45
* Digit gets breakfast23:45
_abc_What's #devuan-conf ?23:49
gnarface_abc_: devuan conference channel23:52
Digita conference happening this weekend for the distribution of gnu/linux whos chan you're in.23:52

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