Syllin | i was reading the sysvinit code (at https://github.com/Distrotech/sysvinit) and i couldn't figure out where the symlink farm from /etc/rcX.d fits in. doesn't sysvinit consult those directories on boot? or is that something else? | 02:37 |
---|---|---|
Syllin | theres a section in https://wiki.debian.org/Init which leads me to believe inittab is responsible for invoking these rcX.d scripts...but i'm not sure. the source code for sysvinit doesn't seem to reference /etc/rc.X directories | 02:38 |
gnarface | Syllin: check in the source for sysv-rc. i think that part is run by shell scripts. | 02:44 |
gnarface | Syllin: yea, that logic is in /etc/init.d/rc, i'm pretty sure | 02:46 |
Syllin | gnarface thanks | 03:26 |
gnarface | no problem | 03:26 |
Syllin | do people usually use xfce with devuan? i have a modern laptop so the lack of HiDPI support is kind of annoying. super small UI | 05:36 |
Syllin | i found https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI but was wondering if there are any best practices around this | 05:36 |
fsmithred | how high dpi do you need? | 05:37 |
furrywolf | I use icewm. it scales its fonts correctly. however, hidpi on linux is pretty crappy. it's up to each application to scale itself correctly, and both very few programs and very few of the widget toolkits they use do. | 05:37 |
furrywolf | firefox, for example, doesn't scale properly. the only way to scale it is a config option you can manually set to double every pixel, kinda defeating the hidpiness.. | 05:38 |
fsmithred | I can go as high as 148 before the settings arrow disappears behind the border | 05:38 |
fsmithred | in xfce | 05:39 |
fsmithred | there's also the fontsnaps package for xfce that can increase/decrease size of fonts and icons | 05:39 |
furrywolf | the problem is no matter what xfce does, most programs won't scale. | 05:40 |
gnarface | you will want to change a couple gtk configs | 05:41 |
gnarface | it helps | 05:41 |
furrywolf | have you figured out the gtk config to make the buttons on the ends of scroll bars exist again? | 05:43 |
furrywolf | I tried all the ones I found online and they're still gone. | 05:43 |
furrywolf | because no one ever wants to scroll one line, or something. | 05:43 |
fsmithred | furrywolf, I think what you want is in the desktop theme | 05:43 |
furrywolf | also, have you figured out how to club the people who keep making decisions like this with heavy objects? because I really want that too. | 05:45 |
fsmithred | furrywolf, take a look: https://termbin.com/elfn | 05:45 |
fsmithred | no, but I'd like to know that, too | 05:45 |
fsmithred | I have a few swords that could be sharpened | 05:45 |
Syllin | maybe i will try a few different WMs | 07:07 |
Syllin | to see if any behave better out of the box | 07:07 |
Syllin | is there a way to do a console-only devuan install? the "minimal" live ISO doesn't seem to be bootable | 07:08 |
Syllin | maybe i have to just `dd` the contents to the right place?.. | 07:08 |
gnarface | just don't select anything at tasksel | 07:13 |
gnarface | that will give you a pretty minimal install, from the netinstall iso | 07:14 |
gnarface | i could only speculate what went wrong with the minimal live iso | 07:16 |
gnarface | secure boot issue maybe? | 07:17 |
Syllin | hm. the desktop live ISO worked fine for me though so i think that would indicate not secure boot issues | 07:40 |
Syllin | desktop ISO works, minimal ISO goes black immediately, netinst shows one menu and any of the "install" options go black | 07:40 |
Syllin | guess i'll stick with desktop iso and uninstall xfce | 07:41 |
gnarface | that's a strange issue, parts of the menus go black? | 07:41 |
gnarface | did you try it in ncurses/text mode? | 07:41 |
Syllin | i'm not sure how to do that X_X | 08:23 |
Syllin | however, regarding my dpi problem..settings > display has a "manual dpi" override that makes things usable for me | 08:23 |
Syllin | then i am finding icon size adjustments | 08:23 |
Syllin | so i'm on track | 08:23 |
gnarface | well as long as you got it working | 08:31 |
gnarface | but for future reference, the netinstall should have non-graphical modes somewhere in the main boot menu | 08:32 |
gnarface | maybe under "advanced" i forget really | 08:32 |
gnarface | it's useful for avoiding driver issues | 08:32 |
gnarface | well video driver issues, specifically | 08:33 |
banisterfiend | hi there...so i have a sysvinit service -- what's the canonical way to have it auto-restarted if it crashes? | 11:57 |
Wonka | there is none. that's one of the reasons for systemd. | 12:02 |
MinceR | there are a couple pieces of software that can do it for you, but needing to do so generally means your service is broken | 12:03 |
Wonka | .oO( the intent behind systemd was good, but then the feature creep came, and so much else... ) | 12:03 |
MinceR | no, it wasn't | 12:03 |
MinceR | the intent was a hostile takeover of what used to be GNU/Linux | 12:03 |
Wonka | well, we both cannot read Lennart's mind. | 12:04 |
Wonka | anyway, I'm happy having switched to devuan | 12:04 |
MinceR | oh, actually there is a canonical way, but it's unusual as it doesn't rely on rc | 12:09 |
MinceR | you can have sysvinit start and respawn processes from inittab | 12:09 |
MinceR | this is normally only used for getty | 12:09 |
MinceR | not necessarily a good idea to use for random stuff | 12:10 |
MinceR | there was some daemon that did nothing but checked if something it was supposed to care about died and started it if it did, but i forgot the name | 12:10 |
banisterfiend | is there a way to downgrade my libstdc++ version? my code is linking against the version on my system, which is very recent, meaning my program can't run on systems with an older libstdc++ version | 12:15 |
MinceR | you can ask apt for a specific version by appending = and the version number to the package name | 12:16 |
MinceR | but this only works for versions your release actually has | 12:16 |
MinceR | for other versions, it gets trickier | 12:16 |
MinceR | if you use this = thing, you may need to tell apt not to upgrade this package next time, though | 12:17 |
xrogaan | usually libc is constant for one release (not counting minor releases or security fixes) as most everything depends on it. | 12:27 |
xrogaan | You can, however, install an older distro on a vm or create a specific chroot. | 12:28 |
xrogaan | chroot is best to cleanly compile your project though, as you can recreate one whenever you need it. | 12:29 |
fsmithred | I didn't know we had recent versions of anything | 12:31 |
MinceR | :> | 12:34 |
xrogaan | yeah, so, don't change your system's libc/libstdc++6 because that's just crazy. Create a chroot and experiment in it. | 12:35 |
xrogaan | banisterfiend: which version of libc do you need? | 12:40 |
banisterfiend | xrogaan actually it's the other way found....devuan is using libstdc++ 3.4.19 !!! but ubuntu is already up to 3.4.25 and i'm compiling stuff on ubuntu and it's not working on devuan as a result | 12:41 |
banisterfiend | so i need to downgrade the version on ubuntu | 12:41 |
banisterfiend | xrogaan and unfortunately i can't install and older ubuntu distro | 12:41 |
banisterfiend | cos stupid QT doesn't support it (i'm using a recent version of QT) | 12:42 |
xrogaan | setup a devuan chroot | 12:42 |
xrogaan | you should have a debootstrap on ubuntu, right? | 12:43 |
banisterfiend | never even herad of that | 12:43 |
xrogaan | I don't know if it'll be okay with a systemd-less system in a chroot hosted by a systemd one though. I know debootstrap got some changes specific for devuan. | 12:44 |
banisterfiend | thing i dont understand is why is devuan using such an ancient version of libstdc++ ? | 12:44 |
banisterfiend | even ubuntu 14 has a more recent version than latest duvuan | 12:44 |
fsmithred | we use the same version as debian | 12:44 |
xrogaan | because we're still on stable/stretch. | 12:44 |
xrogaan | ubuntu is usually more up to date as they release more often. | 12:45 |
xrogaan | 2 release per year, is that right? | 12:45 |
banisterfiend | fsmithred no, debian is on .22, and devuan is only on .20 | 12:45 |
fsmithred | yeah, and they base on sid | 12:45 |
banisterfiend | and my app needs .21 :/ | 12:46 |
fsmithred | which package are you looking at? | 12:46 |
xrogaan | debian release once in maybe 5 year? | 12:46 |
banisterfiend | fsmithred /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++ | 12:46 |
fsmithred | 2 yrs, usually | 12:46 |
xrogaan | that can't be right | 12:46 |
banisterfiend | i downloaded this devuan distro just last night | 12:47 |
KatolaZ | xrogaan: 2 years | 12:47 |
KatolaZ | https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases | 12:48 |
xrogaan | /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6.0.22 | 12:48 |
xrogaan | sorry, the "can't be right" was about libc's version | 12:48 |
xrogaan | we're using the same version as debian | 12:48 |
xrogaan | banisterfiend: which version of devuan have you installed? Are you on ascii? | 12:49 |
banisterfiend | xrogaan i'm on julia or something | 12:49 |
fsmithred | julia?? | 12:50 |
banisterfiend | it began with 'j' | 12:50 |
fsmithred | cat /etc/issue | 12:50 |
banisterfiend | i dont remember exactly | 12:50 |
fsmithred | jessie? | 12:50 |
xrogaan | Jessie ? | 12:50 |
banisterfiend | yes jessie | 12:50 |
xrogaan | lol | 12:50 |
xrogaan | that's oldstable, you want ascii | 12:50 |
banisterfiend | oh | 12:50 |
banisterfiend | xrogaan can you run this command for me | 12:50 |
banisterfiend | strings /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 | GLIBCXX | 12:51 |
banisterfiend | err | 12:52 |
banisterfiend | strings /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 | grep GLIBCXX | 12:52 |
banisterfiend | ^ i mean that | 12:52 |
banisterfiend | and tell me the last version number | 12:52 |
banisterfiend | on my verison of devuan i get 3.4.20 | 12:52 |
xrogaan | http://sprunge.us/Ov5YCg | 12:53 |
banisterfiend | awesome | 12:53 |
banisterfiend | that's cool | 12:53 |
banisterfiend | i'll wipe this stupid julia thing and go with ascii then | 12:53 |
banisterfiend | do most people use ascii? | 12:53 |
xrogaan | they should if they aren't. | 12:53 |
xrogaan | banisterfiend: anyhow, checkout chrooting https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Chroot | 13:02 |
xrogaan | > https://wiki.debian.org/Debootstrap | 13:03 |
banisterfiend | thx | 13:04 |
banisterfiend | man | 13:04 |
banisterfiend | uh | 16:27 |
banisterfiend | so i just installed devuan ascii....and i only get a text console interface when it boots | 16:27 |
banisterfiend | no gui | 16:28 |
banisterfiend | wtf? | 16:28 |
furrywolf | did you select any of the desktop package sets when the installer prompted? | 16:31 |
banisterfiend | i'm pretty sure i did, but htere's so many fucking prompts through the install i think i just pressed "enter' all the time without thining | 16:34 |
banisterfiend | jesus christ | 16:34 |
furrywolf | log in as root and run "tasksel" | 16:35 |
furrywolf | you want "devuan desktop environment" and "xfce" selected, probably. | 16:35 |
furrywolf | also, if you're new to unix-like operating systems, free advice: pressing enter all the time without thinking is not usually a good idea. you wouldn't be being asked something unless there was a reason you might want to do one of several different things... | 16:38 |
furrywolf | were those two selected? | 16:39 |
furrywolf | well, you seem to have wandered off, so I'm assuming you don't actually need any help. | 16:46 |
Hund | :) | 16:47 |
Syllin | re: restarting sysvinit daemones when the crash. my feeling on this is that its best for the service to just not crash :). but if you need some kind of restart behavior, put it in application land | 19:08 |
Syllin | a simple bash loop is usually fine, but there are "babysitter" applications | 19:08 |
Syllin | like if its a java application, YAJSW | 19:08 |
Syllin | also my understanding is that OpenRC can do this babysitting behavior, and devuan supports OpenRC | 19:10 |
Syllin | banisterfiend: check out openRC, maybe it'll work for you | 19:19 |
amesser_ | you could be using cron to check periodically for running services. This also avoids infinite restart loops eating all cpu time when a service is continuously failing | 19:19 |
Evilham | Or runit | 19:29 |
Evilham | amesser_: runit addresses that too | 19:30 |
Evilham | Afaik s6 too | 19:30 |
amesser_ | yep, using cron is mainly usefull when using sysvinit | 19:30 |
Evilham | Sysvinit and runit are not mutually exclusive :-) | 19:31 |
amesser_ | did know that before - never used anything else than sysvinit (well, aside of systemd a long time ago) | 19:32 |
Evilham | I usually start a system svdir that spawns and monitors a user svdir as well as any system services | 19:32 |
amesser_ | didn't | 19:32 |
Evilham | Yeah, it's totally worth a try | 19:32 |
Evilham | Specially if you've done Cron as a way of monitoring :-D | 19:32 |
Evilham | s6 is a cute suite, you can use just the service supervisor, which apparently works a lot like runit | 19:33 |
lsjet | Hello. How do I run X as non-root using startx (no display manager)? Getting drmSetMaster failed permission denied | 21:56 |
gnarface | lsjet: try adding yourself to the "video" group, but it could also be a symptom of loading the wrong driver (they don't all support running as non-root yet) | 22:16 |
gnarface | if you check your xorg log, you can decipher which drivers it tries, and which one it settles on | 22:18 |
gnarface | there's also some config file in /etc that might be tying you to legacy mode, but i think that wouldn't give you permission denied unless something derailed during your install... | 22:19 |
gnarface | (if you can't figure out the xorg log, i can help) | 22:22 |
Syllin | does sysvinit exist alongside openrc, or is openrc implemented on top of sysvinit? or neither? | 23:08 |
Syllin | i think i can use either on devuan, thats why i'm asking the question | 23:08 |
MinceR | afaik openrc's rc scripts run on top of sysvinit's init binary | 23:12 |
MinceR | though it often exists as openrc-init or something, not sure why | 23:12 |
MinceR | maybe my information was outdated | 23:12 |
gnarface | Syllin: i don't use it, but my 3rd-hand understanding of it was that devuan inherited from debian a openrc that relies on sysvinit, however there are examples in the wild (gentoo?) of openrc installs that do not, and people in this channel have (i think successfully) researched changing the devuan install to do the same thing. my personal recommendation is not to do that until you figure out what it's doing instead by | 23:27 |
gnarface | default, it might be more useful than you think... | 23:27 |
gnarface | (i think the primary reason behind the debian setup was to maintain compatibility with existing init.d scripts in the wild) | 23:28 |
Syllin | makes sense, thanks | 23:55 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!