libera/#devuan/ Friday, 2019-04-26

Syllini was reading the sysvinit code (at https://github.com/Distrotech/sysvinit) and i couldn't figure out where the symlink farm from /etc/rcX.d fits in. doesn't sysvinit consult those directories on boot? or is that something else?02:37
Syllintheres a section in https://wiki.debian.org/Init which leads me to believe inittab is responsible for invoking these rcX.d scripts...but i'm not sure. the source code for sysvinit doesn't seem to reference /etc/rc.X directories02:38
gnarfaceSyllin: check in the source for sysv-rc.  i think that part is run by shell scripts.02:44
gnarfaceSyllin: yea, that logic is in /etc/init.d/rc, i'm pretty sure02:46
Syllingnarface thanks03:26
gnarfaceno problem03:26
Syllindo people usually use xfce with devuan? i have a modern laptop so the lack of HiDPI support is kind of annoying. super small UI05:36
Syllini found https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/HiDPI but was wondering if there are any best practices around this05:36
fsmithredhow high dpi do you need?05:37
furrywolfI use icewm.  it scales its fonts correctly.  however, hidpi on linux is pretty crappy.  it's up to each application to scale itself correctly, and both very few programs and very few of the widget toolkits they use do.05:37
furrywolffirefox, for example, doesn't scale properly.  the only way to scale it is a config option you can manually set to double every pixel, kinda defeating the hidpiness..05:38
fsmithredI can go as high as 148 before the settings arrow disappears behind the border05:38
fsmithredin xfce05:39
fsmithredthere's also the fontsnaps package for xfce that can increase/decrease size of fonts and icons05:39
furrywolfthe problem is no matter what xfce does, most programs won't scale.05:40
gnarfaceyou will want to change a couple gtk configs05:41
gnarfaceit helps05:41
furrywolfhave you figured out the gtk config to make the buttons on the ends of scroll bars exist again?05:43
furrywolfI tried all the ones I found online and they're still gone.05:43
furrywolfbecause no one ever wants to scroll one line, or something.05:43
fsmithredfurrywolf, I think what you want is in the desktop theme05:43
furrywolfalso, have you figured out how to club the people who keep making decisions like this with heavy objects?  because I really want that too.05:45
fsmithredfurrywolf, take a look: https://termbin.com/elfn05:45
fsmithredno, but I'd like to know that, too05:45
fsmithredI have a few swords that could be sharpened05:45
Syllinmaybe i will try a few different WMs07:07
Syllinto see if any behave better out of the box07:07
Syllinis there a way to do a console-only devuan install? the "minimal" live ISO doesn't seem to be bootable07:08
Syllinmaybe i have to just `dd` the contents to the right place?..07:08
gnarfacejust don't select anything at tasksel07:13
gnarfacethat will give you a pretty minimal install, from the netinstall iso07:14
gnarfacei could only speculate what went wrong with the minimal live iso07:16
gnarfacesecure boot issue maybe?07:17
Syllinhm. the desktop live ISO worked fine for me though so i think that would indicate not secure boot issues07:40
Syllindesktop ISO works, minimal ISO goes black immediately, netinst shows one menu and any of the "install" options go black07:40
Syllinguess i'll stick with desktop iso and uninstall xfce07:41
gnarfacethat's a strange issue, parts of the menus go black?07:41
gnarfacedid you try it in ncurses/text mode?07:41
Syllini'm not sure how to do that X_X08:23
Syllinhowever, regarding my dpi problem..settings > display has a "manual dpi" override that makes things usable for me08:23
Syllinthen i am finding icon size adjustments08:23
Syllinso i'm on track08:23
gnarfacewell as long as you got it working08:31
gnarfacebut for future reference, the netinstall should have non-graphical modes somewhere in the main boot menu08:32
gnarfacemaybe under "advanced" i forget really08:32
gnarfaceit's useful for avoiding driver issues08:32
gnarfacewell video driver issues, specifically08:33
banisterfiendhi there...so i have a sysvinit service -- what's the canonical way to have it auto-restarted if it crashes?11:57
Wonkathere is none. that's one of the reasons for systemd.12:02
MinceRthere are a couple pieces of software that can do it for you, but needing to do so generally means your service is broken12:03
Wonka.oO( the intent behind systemd was good, but then the feature creep came, and so much else... )12:03
MinceRno, it wasn't12:03
MinceRthe intent was a hostile takeover of what used to be GNU/Linux12:03
Wonkawell, we both cannot read Lennart's mind.12:04
Wonkaanyway, I'm happy having switched to devuan12:04
MinceRoh, actually there is a canonical way, but it's unusual as it doesn't rely on rc12:09
MinceRyou can have sysvinit start and respawn processes from inittab12:09
MinceRthis is normally only used for getty12:09
MinceRnot necessarily a good idea to use for random stuff12:10
MinceRthere was some daemon that did nothing but checked if something it was supposed to care about died and started it if it did, but i forgot the name12:10
banisterfiendis there a way to downgrade my libstdc++ version? my code is linking against the version on my system, which is very recent, meaning my program can't run on systems with an older libstdc++ version12:15
MinceRyou can ask apt for a specific version by appending = and the version number to the package name12:16
MinceRbut this only works for versions your release actually has12:16
MinceRfor other versions, it gets trickier12:16
MinceRif you use this = thing, you may need to tell apt not to upgrade this package next time, though12:17
xrogaanusually libc is constant for one release (not counting minor releases or security fixes) as most everything depends on it.12:27
xrogaanYou can, however, install an older distro on a vm or create a specific chroot.12:28
xrogaanchroot is best to cleanly compile your project though, as you can recreate one whenever you need it.12:29
fsmithredI didn't know we had recent versions of anything12:31
MinceR:>12:34
xrogaanyeah, so, don't change your system's libc/libstdc++6 because that's just crazy. Create a chroot and experiment in it.12:35
xrogaanbanisterfiend: which version of libc do you need?12:40
banisterfiendxrogaan actually it's the other way found....devuan is using libstdc++ 3.4.19 !!! but ubuntu is already up to 3.4.25 and i'm compiling stuff on ubuntu and it's not working on devuan as a result12:41
banisterfiendso i need to downgrade the version on ubuntu12:41
banisterfiendxrogaan and unfortunately i can't install and older ubuntu distro12:41
banisterfiendcos stupid QT doesn't support it (i'm using a recent version of QT)12:42
xrogaansetup a devuan chroot12:42
xrogaanyou should have a debootstrap on ubuntu, right?12:43
banisterfiendnever even herad of that12:43
xrogaanI don't know if it'll be okay with a systemd-less system in a chroot hosted by a systemd one though. I know debootstrap got some changes specific for devuan.12:44
banisterfiendthing i dont understand is why is devuan using such an ancient version of libstdc++ ?12:44
banisterfiendeven ubuntu 14 has a more recent version than latest duvuan12:44
fsmithredwe use the same version as debian12:44
xrogaanbecause we're still on stable/stretch.12:44
xrogaanubuntu is usually more up to date as they release more often.12:45
xrogaan2 release per year, is that right?12:45
banisterfiendfsmithred no, debian is on .22, and devuan is only on .2012:45
fsmithredyeah, and they base on sid12:45
banisterfiendand my app needs .21 :/12:46
fsmithredwhich package are you looking at?12:46
xrogaandebian release once in maybe 5 year?12:46
banisterfiendfsmithred /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++12:46
fsmithred2 yrs, usually12:46
xrogaanthat can't be right12:46
banisterfiendi downloaded this devuan distro just last night12:47
KatolaZxrogaan: 2 years12:47
KatolaZhttps://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases12:48
xrogaan/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6.0.2212:48
xrogaansorry, the "can't be right" was about libc's version12:48
xrogaanwe're using the same version as debian12:48
xrogaanbanisterfiend: which version of devuan have you installed? Are you on ascii?12:49
banisterfiendxrogaan i'm on julia or something12:49
fsmithredjulia??12:50
banisterfiendit began with 'j'12:50
fsmithredcat /etc/issue12:50
banisterfiendi dont remember exactly12:50
fsmithredjessie?12:50
xrogaanJessie ?12:50
banisterfiendyes jessie12:50
xrogaanlol12:50
xrogaanthat's oldstable, you want ascii12:50
banisterfiendoh12:50
banisterfiendxrogaan can you run this command for me12:50
banisterfiendstrings /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 | GLIBCXX12:51
banisterfienderr12:52
banisterfiendstrings /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 | grep GLIBCXX12:52
banisterfiend^ i mean that12:52
banisterfiendand tell me the last version number12:52
banisterfiendon my verison of devuan i get 3.4.2012:52
xrogaanhttp://sprunge.us/Ov5YCg12:53
banisterfiendawesome12:53
banisterfiendthat's cool12:53
banisterfiendi'll wipe this stupid julia thing and go with ascii then12:53
banisterfienddo most people use ascii?12:53
xrogaanthey should if they aren't.12:53
xrogaanbanisterfiend: anyhow, checkout chrooting https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Chroot13:02
xrogaan> https://wiki.debian.org/Debootstrap13:03
banisterfiendthx13:04
banisterfiendman13:04
banisterfienduh16:27
banisterfiendso i just installed devuan ascii....and i only get a text console interface when it boots16:27
banisterfiendno gui16:28
banisterfiendwtf?16:28
furrywolfdid you select any of the desktop package sets when the installer prompted?16:31
banisterfiendi'm pretty sure i did, but htere's so many fucking prompts through the install i think i just pressed "enter' all the time without thining16:34
banisterfiendjesus christ16:34
furrywolflog in as root and run "tasksel"16:35
furrywolfyou want "devuan desktop environment" and "xfce" selected, probably.16:35
furrywolfalso, if you're new to unix-like operating systems, free advice:  pressing enter all the time without thinking is not usually a good idea.  you wouldn't be being asked something unless there was a reason you might want to do one of several different things...16:38
furrywolfwere those two selected?16:39
furrywolfwell, you seem to have wandered off, so I'm assuming you don't actually need any help.16:46
Hund:)16:47
Syllinre: restarting sysvinit daemones when the crash. my feeling on this is that its best for the service to just not crash :). but if you need some kind of restart behavior, put it in application land19:08
Syllina simple bash loop is usually fine, but there are "babysitter" applications19:08
Syllinlike if its a java application, YAJSW19:08
Syllinalso my understanding is that OpenRC can do this babysitting behavior, and devuan supports OpenRC19:10
Syllinbanisterfiend: check out openRC, maybe it'll work for you19:19
amesser_you could be using cron to check periodically for running services. This also avoids infinite restart loops eating all cpu time when a service is  continuously failing19:19
EvilhamOr runit19:29
Evilhamamesser_: runit addresses that too19:30
EvilhamAfaik s6 too19:30
amesser_yep, using cron is mainly usefull when using sysvinit19:30
EvilhamSysvinit and runit are not mutually exclusive :-)19:31
amesser_did know that before - never used anything else than sysvinit (well, aside of systemd a long time ago)19:32
EvilhamI usually start a system svdir that spawns and monitors a user svdir as well as any system services19:32
amesser_didn't19:32
EvilhamYeah, it's totally worth a try19:32
EvilhamSpecially if you've done Cron as a way of monitoring :-D19:32
Evilhams6 is a cute suite, you can use just the service supervisor, which apparently works a lot like runit19:33
lsjetHello. How do I run X as non-root using startx (no display manager)? Getting drmSetMaster failed permission denied21:56
gnarfacelsjet: try adding yourself to the "video" group, but it could also be a symptom of loading the wrong driver (they don't all support running as non-root yet)22:16
gnarfaceif you check your xorg log, you can decipher which drivers it tries, and which one it settles on22:18
gnarfacethere's also some config file in /etc that might be tying you to legacy mode, but i think that wouldn't give you permission denied unless something derailed during your install...22:19
gnarface(if you can't figure out the xorg log, i can help)22:22
Syllindoes sysvinit exist alongside openrc, or is openrc implemented on top of sysvinit? or neither?23:08
Syllini think i can use either on devuan, thats why i'm asking the question23:08
MinceRafaik openrc's rc scripts run on top of sysvinit's init binary23:12
MinceRthough it often exists as openrc-init or something, not sure why23:12
MinceRmaybe my information was outdated23:12
gnarfaceSyllin: i don't use it, but my 3rd-hand understanding of it was that devuan inherited from debian a openrc that relies on sysvinit, however there are examples in the wild (gentoo?) of openrc installs that do not, and people in this channel have (i think successfully) researched changing the devuan install to do the same thing.  my personal recommendation is not to do that until you figure out what it's doing instead by23:27
gnarfacedefault, it might be more useful than you think...23:27
gnarface(i think the primary reason behind the debian setup was to maintain compatibility with existing init.d scripts in the wild)23:28
Syllinmakes sense, thanks23:55

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