libera/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2019-05-08

slvrHmmmm. Super glitchy graphics after upgrading from ascii to beowulf03:59
slvrI think display compositing got enabled.... Menus keep moving around and the edges where shadows would be are flickering....04:01
slvrMy solution last time was to use fluxbox but maybe I'll fix it the right way this time. Any idea how to make mate work again?04:02
fsmithredturn off compositing?04:03
slvr"comp" returns no results in control center04:03
fsmithredthey might have some clever name for it04:03
slvrlucky me04:03
slvrI love "clever" software04:03
fsmithredI don't know mate very well04:03
fsmithredlol, I understand04:04
slvrha. we're both here, after all.04:04
fsmithredgood point04:05
fsmithredthere's always xfce04:05
slvroh god no that's even worse04:05
slvrmate is Old Gnome. XFCE is a lightweight core with lots of New Gnome bolted on.04:05
fsmithredyeah, it's a basic desktop. I use it mostly.04:06
slvrIt's sloooooooooooow though04:06
fsmithredoh, everyone who comes from another linux or from windows says it's fast.04:06
slvrI ran xfce on a pentium 133 before they started adding gnome components04:06
fsmithredyou got spoiled by fluxbox.04:06
slvrfluxbox and icewm are very nice04:07
fsmithredlol, it works better on newer computers04:07
fsmithredI ran gnome on a p16604:07
slvrI disagree. The computer works better. The desktop is stil la dog.04:07
fsmithredbut only a couple times04:07
fsmithredit was painful04:07
slvrkde 2 ran pretty ok on a pentium. 3 needed more oomph04:07
slvrI have a p75 here, if anyone is remotely interested in devuan running on it.04:08
slvrslackware works. :)04:08
fsmithredI'm sure you could do it. Just be selective about software.04:08
slvrvim took 5 minutes to start04:09
fsmithredouch04:09
slvrI got it down to 30 seconds by switching to a kernel that used less memory04:09
gnarfaceoh they took 586 support out of the debian kernels didn't they?04:09
slvryeah04:09
gnarfacebummer04:09
slvr686 and up now04:09
slvrI have a box that is SOOOOO CLOOOOOSE but not quite there. p200 mmx04:10
slvra year newer and it'd be a ppro04:10
gnarfacei think it might be a fairly easy thing to recompile it back in04:11
slvryeah the kernel is cake04:11
slvruserland.... takes a while04:11
gnarfacehmm04:11
gnarfacei bet with distcc you could use both of them at once04:11
gnarfacemaybe cut the time to compile userland in half?04:12
slvrI work at a cloud provider.... Compiling on a few dozen modern intel cores at once might be faster.04:13
Digitwhat are devuan release names based on?    can someone remind me?04:31
* Digit failing to find answer expediently enough for conversation eleswhere04:31
Digitminor planets, nm,  got it.04:32
Digitamusing when you try dive deeper for the info, when it's the sort of info that's presented on the main page of the website.  n_n04:33
blebfor some reason a mail sent from my new devuan install says User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170113 (1.7.2)06:12
blebi'm certain i did apt install mutt06:12
bleband there's no neomutt package06:12
blebso is devuan's mutt package really neomutt?06:12
golinuxbleb: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=neomutt&release=any06:38
golinuxhttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=mutt&release=any06:39
blebso the mutt in ascii is 1.7.206:42
blebquestion remains why does it say neomutt in my user agent header06:42
blebmutt -v prints this: http://ix.io/1ImY06:47
gnarfacebleb: is it possible you inherited that value from an old config file?07:07
gnarface(i'm not actually using it so i don't know for sure neomutt isn't in the mutt package)07:08
blebnot possible07:09
blebi never did anything neomutt07:09
gnarfaceeither way, it looks like you should be able to set it to something else07:09
blebyeah07:09
blebi don't so much mind the user agent, i'm just concerned that the mutt package is actually neomutt07:09
KatolaZbleb: IIRC the mutt packahe in debian has merged stuff from neomutt for quite a while07:22
KatolaZand IIRC, mutt is actually neomutt in Debian07:23
bleboh man07:29
blebclassic debian, shoulda known07:29
blebit does look like they've diverged in buster though, as there's a neomutt package07:30
xinomilohttps://jmtd.net/log/mutt_year_zero/09:32
* enyc meows10:26
reubyawnhi21:14
Hundreubyawn: Hey!21:15
reubyawndoes devuan fully function using a macbook pro laptop?21:17
gnarfaceprobably not "fully" but probably mostly, on some of them.  it probably really depends a lot on exactly which macbook21:18
reubyawnhow could I test it on my late 2013 hardware and does ISO have the UEFI package?21:22
gnarfacehmmm, good question...21:22
gnarfacelate 2013 should be intel hardware21:23
gnarfaceshouldn't be a problem to just try a live image21:23
gnarfacebut i admit i'm not sure it'll work21:23
reubyawnyes, 64-bit21:23
gnarfacenot sure about the UEFI thing either.  some people disable secure-boot, but you can provide your own key too if the firmware allows it21:25
gnarfacei think the correct way to say that is that it should work with EFI but you might need to intervene manually to make UEFI work21:25
gnarfacebut macs are different, openfirmware might complicate things21:26
gnarfacehttps://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/desktop-live/devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_desktop-live.iso21:26
gnarfacetry booting this live image21:26
reubyawnI tried ubuntu and the mac overheated, so would like to try debian, which devuan is, correct?21:26
HundYes.21:27
gnarfaceit's basically like debian was up through wheezy21:27
gnarfacethat's where debian diverged from it's own path21:27
gnarfacedevuan preserved the original direction21:27
reubyawnI did not know that, thx21:28
Hundreubyawn: Why did you choose Devuan over Debian then? :P21:29
gnarfacethere's no need to even ask.  guaranteed he asked about a mac in #debian and they were dicks to him.21:31
Hund:)21:31
reubyawnnow, how is ISO written to a stick or does it need to be CD/dVd?21:31
HundI use dd.21:31
gnarfacereubyawn: they're all hybrid-iso format now, so you don't have to do anything special.  dd is popular, but cp is smart enough to do it too.  it should work from any usb stick just as easily as a optical disk.21:32
gnarfacereubyawn: assuming the live image boots, the first thing you'll want to do to verify it's not going to overheat is probably install "lm-sensors" if it's not included on the live image already, then run "sensors-detect" as root21:34
reubyawnwhat syntax works with dd & cp?  I recently switched from m$21:34
stiltrWhen I installed Kali on a MBP, I had to add a couple packages to get it to control the fans. That may be your issue.21:35
gnarfacereubyawn: cp [in file] [out file]21:35
gnarfacereubyawn: dd if=[in file] of=[out file]21:35
fsmithredthe amd64 desktop-live should boot on the macbook21:36
gnarfacereubyawn: in this case, [in file] would be devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_desktop-live.iso and [out file] would be the /dev/sdc or whatever your usb key is showing up as.  it is very important to make sure you get [out file] correct or you can easily hose your entire existing install pointing it at the wrong device.21:37
gnarface(there will be no safety check or confirmation of this action)21:37
gnarfacemicrosoft software tends to train you to expect warnings when you're about to do something dangerous.  linux generally will not.21:39
stiltrI like to add status=progress to dd calls. (dd status=progress [in] [out])21:39
reubyawnI like the debian net install concept, where ISO fits on a CD and build from there.21:39
gnarfaceyea since the copy will be very slow, that's not a bad idea.  cp can give progress too though.21:40
gnarfacereubyawn: (there are netinstall images just like theirs here https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/installer-iso/  ... but i advised the live image first just as a way for you to test hardware compatibility without committing to anything first)21:41
reubyawnI don’t see the difference between netinstall/live?  It will fly or not.21:44
gnarfacelive will let you test out all the hardware more easily without actually writing anything to the harddrive21:44
gnarfaceit's not just as simple as it booting or not booting21:45
reubyawnsolved, will give live a go.21:46
gnarfaceaudio device support, loading the right video drivers, laptop keyboard function key mappings, etc... all that stuff is a lot more difficult to verify from the netinstall without actually completing an install first.  don't let me stop you from using the netinstall first instead, i was just trying to minimize risk for whatever your previous install was21:47
gnarfacei wouldn't want you to overwrite the whole thing and then realize you hate it because there's no hardware opengl acceleration available for your video card or something like that (i don't know, just an example)21:47
gnarfaceit's common these days to actually have partial functionality21:48
gnarfacelike generic framebuffer drivers or something like that in lieu of something that supports the hardware fully21:48
reubyawnalso, I’m new to IRC and do I sign into this room using ‘#devuan’ w/o any password?21:49
gnarface /join #devuan21:49
gnarfaceyou might want to register your handle with NickServ but that's a IRC network-level thing, not specific to this channel21:49
reubyawnIs that from the freenet console?21:50
gnarfacefreenode*, yes21:50
gnarfaceyou can get all kinds of help with /help21:50
reubyawnthx, bye21:51
gnarfaceno problem, good luck21:51
gnarfacelet us know how it works out21:51
cosurgiquestion: what's the best way to backport latest g++ version to ascii ?21:57
cosurgiis the some release-backports to put into /etc/apt/sources.list ?21:57
cosurgiOr maybe not the latest, just a package with some relatively recent version of g++21:57
gnarfacethere is ascii-backports.  did you check there for it?21:58
gnarfaceoh, nevermind, it's probably not there actually21:58
gnarfacei did this once before and ended up backporting half the next release to make it work21:58
gnarfaceit might not be worth it, if you can get away with just installing testing or unstable in a chroot and building whatever it is you need the new g++ version for in there21:59
gnarfacethat's what i've been doing anyway21:59
cosurgiHmm.. yeah. I already have 7 chroots: bionic  buster  cosmic  disco  sid  stretch  xenial22:00
gnarfacethe technique is also useful for building for foreign architectures22:00
cosurgiand a nice script to start screen in all of them. I wanted it localy though22:00
gnarfacethat way you don't muck up your main install though22:00
cosurgiyeah. I checked. It;s not in ascii-backports22:01
gnarfacemixing stuff created for different releases tends to cause weird problems22:02
cosurgiI'll check if I can backport it with simple `apt-get build-dep` and `dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b -j32`22:02
gnarfaceit might work, but what i discovered previously is that you have to recursively do that for all the dependencies down to libc first, and by the time you've done that, you might as well have just upgraded to the next release22:03
cosurgiBut did you rebuild g++ or install *deb ?22:04
gnarfacei was actually building something else that needed a newer [everything] including g++22:04
gnarfacethe dpkg-buildpackage method did work22:04
cosurgiand..?22:05
cosurgiif you installed the package built on local system...22:05
cosurgiahh! ok.22:05
gnarfacewell like i said, when i was done i realized i'd replaced like 80% of the installation with hand-backported packages22:05
cosurgiI get it.22:05
cosurgiAll the library.so were linked with wrong linker version.22:05
gnarfaceit wasn't worth it. but i was following orders22:05
cosurgithanks!22:05
cosurgiSo I can't do that.22:05
cosurgiOK. I will export DISPLAY from chroot. And will have my gvim in there.22:06
gnarfacei think that will work22:07
gnarfaceyou could always use virtualization too, then just ssh in22:07
cosurginah22:07
gnarfacebut that might be overcomplicating things22:07
cosurgiI have done a (nearly) perfect chroot automaton.22:07
cosurgiWill put it on some wiki somewhere later. It's worth sharing.22:08
gnarfacecool22:08
cosurgioh, btw, does devuan have some wiki? I was thinking about wiki for my software: https://yade-dem.org/wiki/Yade22:12
cosurgiI could put it on devuan wiki :)22:12
gnarfacethere's this forum here: https://dev1galaxy.org/22:12
cosurgioh! I didn't know about that. Cool!22:13
cosurgiI guess that wold go into a DIY section :)22:13
reubyawnLIVE flies OOTB23:28
fsmithredreubyawn, if your hardware wants 32-bit grub, the package is in /23:30
fsmithredyou can install it before running the installer or else do it in chroot in the middle of the install23:30
reubyawnwhy 32-bit grub when LIVE/macbook is 64-bit?23:32
gnarfacehe said "if"23:32
gnarfaceit's not uncommon for some ARM hardware to be 64-bit but still need to boot in 32-bit mode.  i don't know if that's the case for macbooks23:33
gnarfacealso note that the live installer won't have the same flexibility as the debian-style netinstall images.  it basically just mirrors the live install to the drive23:33
gnarfaceso if you want more flexibility at install time, use the netinstall image23:34
reubyawnFor now, I’ll burnin LIVE, but can LIVE incorporate persistance, so data can survive reboot?23:35
gnarfacelive can incorporate persistence, but if you use the installer that's included on the live desktop, you don't need to bother with that, it will still make a regular install.  i didn't mean it literally mirrors the live image to the disk, i mean it just uses the same package selection and base configurations for those packages.23:36
gnarfaceso it won't ask you questions23:36
gnarfaceit'll just replicate (uses refracta)23:37
reubyawnone subtle issue is the small desktop icons. how are they enlarged?23:37
gnarfaceuh, i don't know.  i think that's probably a xfce setting in this case23:38
gnarfacemake sure your DPI is set right too23:38
gnarfaceor, make sure the DPI is set right first, i mean23:38
gnarfacebut i do think there's an icon size setting in there somewhere also23:38
reubyawnI found text, but not icon zoom23:39
gnarfacesettings->desktop->icons ?23:40
gnarfacemenu->settings->display?23:40
gnarfacesomething like that?23:40
gnarfacea quick google search suggests to me that maybe people are using the whisker menu plugin to get control over icon sizes23:41
gnarfacei believe it's not installed by default, but it is in the repo23:42
gnarfaceyou might be used to some other distro that included it by default23:42
reubyawnI guess DPI would be trial-n-error23:42
golinuxXfce does it in settings > appearance > settings23:42
gnarfaceeh, the manufacturer should have provided accurate screen DPI values in the user manual or the specs on the box...23:43
gnarfacein a worst-case scenario you can get out a ruler and do some math23:43
gnarfacefor something like a macbook, the internet should already know this though23:44
gnarfacethat is something Apple customers care about23:44
reubyawnother question, which IRC app does LIVE like for this room?23:44
gnarfacei don't know if there is one23:45
fsmithredthere are icons on desktop for larger/smaller font23:45
fsmithredand icons23:45
gnarfacei like hexchat for IRC23:45
gnarface(it's just a fork of xchat because xchat went non-free)23:46
reubyawnis hexchat CLI23:46
gnarfaceno23:46
gnarfaceif you want a command-line irc client, i think irssi is popular23:46
reubyawnthe plan is not to mess with internal SSD, only use USB 3.0 external23:48
FlibberTGibbetweechat is also great if you adore lots of hair-trigger options :)23:48
gnarfaceyou can pass simple regexp patterns to "apt-cache search" to find stuff.  try:  apt-cache search irc.*cli23:48
reubyawnNO bloat here23:48
FlibberTGibbetweechat is cli23:49
FlibberTGibbetit was just written by someone who found emacs to be a bit unconfigurable for their taste23:49
gnarfacereubyawn: note that the install feature in the live image may not even give you a choice of target disk.  it might just pick the first one it finds23:50
gnarfaceit would be a good idea to use the netinstall if you need to pick a specific disk and preserve another OS install23:50
gnarfacethough i guess nothing really is stopping you from doing a chroot + debootstrap install from the live image either23:51
reubyawnThen I’d want to add persistence to the existing stick, if possible . . .23:51
gnarfacethat'll slow you way down but it is possible.  afaik it works just like persistence on the debian live images23:52
fsmithredcan't add persistence to the stick if you used dd to create it23:52
gnarfaceoh, well you have to repartition23:52
gnarfacei think you could do it with gparted though, no?23:53
fsmithredthat works on the 32-bit isos, but not on the 6423:53
fsmithredhas to do with the uefi stuff23:54
gnarfaceoh23:54
reubyawndid you post a netinst ISO for starters23:54
denPeshello23:56
denPesanyone here using beowolf release?23:56
gnarfaceyes, in here reubyawn https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/installer-iso/23:56
gnarfacehttps://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/installer-iso/devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso23:56
denPescan i just use beowolf, or is it better to stick to ascci, when it comes to issues and stuff23:57
gnarfacea few people are, denPes.  i'm not sure exactly who.  you might have to wait a while to talk to them.  if you have to ask that question though, you're better off sticking with ascii and using ascii-backports for newer drivers and mesa etc.23:58

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