freenode/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-06-15

ttkvfrom a different channel:01:11
ttkv<qq> i wish the devuan people hadn't left their fork of the installer as "debian" because it means you can't have both installers on one tftp/pxe server01:11
ttkvis there a place to file bug reports?01:12
ttkvnever mind, found https://bugs.devuan.org/01:14
ttkvalso found https://bugs.devuan.org/db/37/37.html01:17
systemdletesomebody is making noise on my network.  Whatever it is, is using ipv6 broadcasting to anything that will listen on ports 8610 and 8612.  It seems, based on my research on this, it is mainly harmless, but I wonder why it is using those 2 ports, which (according to IANA) are used by Canon printers, of which I have none here (I do have an Epson though).05:31
systemdleteI see firewall blocks in the daily logwatch report on my devuan host system.  The source is coming from several systems, including an ascii vm and occasionally from some others.  Again, maybe nothing to worry over, but still.  Why.05:33
furrywolfhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cups/+bug/167197405:33
furrywolfthat?05:33
systemdleteThose 2 ports, btw, seem to go by 2 different names:  bjnp and mfnp05:35
systemdlete(furrywolf:  probably)05:35
furrywolfsome info in that bug05:36
systemdleteYes, I've read that report several times already.05:36
systemdleteI've disabled avahi on all my systems, hosts and VMs.  Also, at least one commenter says it is not cups-related.05:37
systemdleteNot sure what I think at this point05:37
furrywolfkill things one at a time and see what makes it stop05:39
systemdleteI just tried an experiment:  I restarted cups service, and then looked at the ufw log -- no hits (i.e., no block actions taken)05:39
systemdleteOne commmenter said it might be coming from colord, which uses ipv6 broadcasts.05:40
furrywolfhttps://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104465 ?05:40
furrywolf"Hi,05:40
furrywolfI too was seeing this traffic in my logs and it turns out it's libsane, used by colord, which sends broadcast traffic looking for network scanners."05:40
systemdleteYes, I read that one already as well.  I DID do some footwork before coming here... honestly.05:41
furrywolffine, I won't try to help.  :P05:41
systemdleteI'm trying to be independent and responsible.05:41
systemdleteNo, just letting you know I did do some research first.05:41
furrywolfhave you determined that the second bug report is incorrect, by, say, removing colord and libsane?05:41
systemdletelibsane, ok.  But colord -- will that kill my desktop, window manager, X11, etc. ?05:42
systemdleteor cause some sort of instability?05:42
furrywolfI doubt it.  I've never heard of it, so it can't be too important.  lol05:42
furrywolfI don't have it installed.05:42
furrywolfit sounds mostly useless from the description05:43
furrywolfit's also FDO.  which means incredibly buggyness is a feature.05:43
systemdleteseems saned is disabled here.  I have not configured sane at all since installing ascii on my host.05:43
furrywolftry apt-get remove colord...05:43
systemdleteCouldn't I just disable it momentarily?05:44
systemdletes/Couldn't/Could/05:44
furrywolfprobably?05:44
systemdleteI don't monkey much with X11 or its various systems05:44
furrywolfI'm a fan of removing unneeded software, though, especially when it's FDO software.05:44
furrywolfit has nothing to do with x11.05:44
furrywolfin fact, it wouldn't surprise me if only FDO apps ever use it.05:45
systemdletedoh.  Why not try removing/disabling in my testbox (I keep forgetting about that!)05:45
furrywolfyeah, unless you use Gnome Color Manager, you won't miss it.05:46
systemdleteI'm running xfce05:46
furrywolfrun aptitude why colord05:47
furrywolf(and if that doesn't work, run apt-get install aptitude.  :)05:48
systemdlete"FDO" -- millions of meanings for that one.  So please tell me.05:49
furrywolffreedesktop.org05:49
systemdletefor deposit only, flight desk officer, functional device object, to name a few.05:49
systemdleteAh!! thanks05:49
furrywolfthe people who brought you other wonderful software, like pulseaudio and systemd.05:50
furrywolfand generally everything else that's against anything devuan stands for.  :)05:50
systemdletemy testbox does not even have colord running!   lol05:51
furrywolfnot running, or not installed?05:51
systemdleteI wonder why my workbox has it running05:51
systemdletehmmm.05:51
furrywolfalso, aptitude why colord.  if it's installed, see what dragged it in, because it sounds largely useless.05:52
systemdleteinstalled, but not running05:52
furrywolfsince people report it happening with usb plugs and such, it could be something that runs on udev/dbus messages05:54
systemdletecolord gone.  Pulled in as a "recommends" for cups05:56
systemdleteyeah, I saw that about usb.05:56
systemdleteI only have a couple of usb devices on this machine.  One is a monitor for my UPS, and the other has only been attached for a day or 2, whereas this problem goes back a month or so at least.05:57
systemdleteOh.  I just read back... "the people who brought you... pulseaudio and systemd"05:58
systemdleteSomebody got a daemon-construction kit for Christmas one year and just fell in love with it.  Started writing daemons for EVERYTHING.  And Mom thought that was so cute, she insisted that EVERYONE should use them.05:59
systemdleteThe kid was persistent, and he got picked up by a major systems vendor, and grew that into an empire.06:02
systemdlete(You are all just jealous of him, natch...)06:02
systemdleteWell, let's see if these broadcasts go away.  Thanks for your help, furrywolf!06:03
* systemdlete likes furry things and gives furrywolf a hug06:04
furrywolfyay, hugs.  :)06:05
* furrywolf is soft and fluffy!06:05
systemdletethere was a flurry of the messages again, about 15 minutes ago06:09
systemdletenot sure what set that off though06:09
systemdlete(checking logs)06:09
furrywolfI really hate software that does things like that.06:10
furrywolf(randomly sending stuff without you configuring it)06:11
systemdletewell, that was prior to removing colord06:11
systemdletethe only other possibility -- a big maybe -- is when I switched to my testbox and back, when I inspected the colord there.  Using my usb switch seems to cause a system-wide bus scan each time (I see the log messages)06:12
systemdleteand, if this problem has that usb "hook" to it, then maybe that generated the messages.06:13
alfonHi. I'm using the 4 version of linux kernel, not debianized and compiled for my own, on Debian Jessie. The Migrate to Devuan Ascii documentation does't menction anythig about the kernel. Someone knows if there is any problem?08:21
alfonSorry: 4.1.2 exactly08:22
debdogalfon: unlikely but not impossible08:43
debdogdoublecheck the bootloader after the update and before rebooting.08:44
plasma41alfon: If a package expects a feature of a newer kernel than you are running, then that might cause an issue. I know of no specific examples of such a package.08:44
plasma41Other than that scenario, I foresee no issue.08:45
alfonplasma41: You recommed upgrade the kernel for safe?08:47
alfonWhat is the recommended kernel for Devuan Ascii version?08:48
plasma41ASCII uses the 4.19 kernel.08:50
alfonplasma41: Ok, thanks. I upgrade to that version then... before break anything08:54
plasma41I doubt your current kernel will cause any breakage. 4.1 is really old though.08:57
alfon plasma41: Do you thik that is safe to migrate from Debian Jessie to Ascii with that kernel then?09:00
plasma41I believe so09:01
plasma41Honestly I'm surprised you are running 4.1 with Jessie when it uses 4.9 by default.09:02
plasma41Wait I take back that last sentence.09:03
plasma41It's Beowulf that uses 4.19. ASCII uses 4.9.09:03
alfonplasma41: Like I said I don't use the Debian kernel packages. I downloaded the tar from kernel.org and then compiled the sources... Not recommended I know... :-S09:06
alfonASCCI is the stable version right?09:07
plasma41correct, ASCII is stable09:08
plasma41I don't use the Devuan-provided kernel either. I use the Linux-libre kernel from the freesh repo https://jxself.org/linux-libre/09:09
alfonHosti! That is new for me. I'll take a look09:14
alfonplasma41: Thank you for the info.09:21
plasma41np09:22
plasma41let us know how it goes09:22
andi89giHi guys, I've read that Devuan should be listed on FSF /GNU?19:56
drawkulawhy sould we care?20:02
andi89giI don't know? Is it just an idea or to be discussed?20:02
golinuxDevuan provides non-free firmware if needed so is ineligible to be on the FSF list.20:05
drawkulaI'd probably need to trash some of my systems without nonfree stuff20:06
golinuxYet they have no problem with systemd which limits users choice of inits.20:06
andi89gigolinux: ah okay - so Devuan won't fullfill the crtiterias of FSF?20:07
golinuxCorrect.20:07
andi89giIMO it's hard to use only free software20:07
golinuxWe have discussed doing a libre version but we we have our hands full with one version.20:08
andi89gigolinux: yeap indeed - it's a lot to do for Beowulf. It's not such important IMO20:08
golinuxWe would support it if someone wanted to put it together and maintain it.20:08
andi89gigolinux: ah but wouldn't it be much work?20:09
golinuxI think the installer would have to be rewritten a bit.20:09
golinuxCurrently there are questions about installing non-free20:10
andi89giIs there a wish of user-base to provide a free Devuan version which is reliable to FSF?20:11
golinuxProbably.  There are gnuinos and heads derivatives20:12
drawkulawhat does more damage? thowing away hardware that needs a few nonfree components or making RMS unhappy?20:13
golinuxRMS' attitude towards systemd indicates that "freedom" is a relative concept to him.  I couldn't care less20:14
andi89gidrwakula: It's good that FSF exists and why not provide a FSF version of Devuan. But IMO our focus should be on the dev process of Beowulf20:14
golinuxbbiab20:14
andi89gibbiab?20:15
drawkula"back soon" or similar20:15
andi89githx drawkula - I don't know all short chatmassages20:17
andi89gianybody using Beowulf as daily OS ?20:18
fsmithredandi89gi, I've been running beowulf to test the desktop theme and a few other things. It's working well, but some things aren't ready yet.20:26
andi89gifsmithred: okay, which things aren't ready ?  I'm considering to switch to beowulf ;)20:27
MinceRi wouldn't care about the fsf criteria as long as they continue to promote systemd as "free"20:37
andi89giMinceR: yeap this is weird - init is free - not systemd20:38
fsmithredI know some of the desktop stuff is not quite ready20:39
fsmithredif you're used to running debian testing, you'll probably be ok20:39
fsmithredalso if you're flexible about which apps to use20:40
fsmithredif you wait until we get some installer isos made, you could help test them.20:41
andi89gifsmithred: yeah for sure  - I can help you out.20:42
fsmithredthanks20:42
andi89giGnome won't be offically supported by Devuan bc of too much systemd stuff ,right?20:42
fsmithredright20:42
fsmithredbut some people are running it20:42
andi89giyeah, I like Gnome for sure too. I'm just curious if it works fine on Devuan20:44
andi89giGnome can be installed by software manager? I haven't dealed a lot with Gnome on Devuan.20:49
fsmithredsame ways as debian: apt, apt-get, aptitude, synatpic21:03
MinceRapparently the FSF is a big fan of constraining what users can do, and of nothing else21:03
MinceRso i prefer to call them the GWF (Gratis Windows Foundation)21:04
andi89gifsmithred: ok thx21:06
andi89giMinceR: Yeah, indeed their philosophy is sometimes confusing. On the one hand emphasis on Freedom and on the other hand  doing rules ..what might be the best for users. :/21:07
MinceRperhaps red hat's money trumps their philosophy21:07
andi89giMinceR: haha bad words :P But I see your point, what you want to figure out21:08
helios21andi89gi: in forum at dev1galaxy was something that it works with elogind21:54
golinuxhelios21: Don't you have gnome running on sid without systemd on Debian?22:14
helios21golinux: nope, no way. Plasma :)22:15
helios21Plasma with elogind and some services started via runit22:15
golinuxAh right the KDE thingy . . .22:15
MinceRknome22:15
golinuxApologies for my poor memory (It's only going to get worse.)22:16
golinuxMinceR: LOL22:16
andi89giMinceR: Gnome is not bad at all :P22:17
MinceRyeah, "bad" is not heavy enough to express what an evil abomination gnome is22:18
MinceRthe DE which randomly breaks keyboard input22:18
helios21Ask 10 different people about favorite DE / wm setup and receive 15 different answers :)22:38
helios21I do not like GNOME as well, and I dislike client side decorations.22:38
MinceRpoettering will fix that22:38
MinceRthere will be The One DE and Its Only WM22:38
helios21heh.22:39
helios21At least there seem to be a successor for Pulseaudio in development.22:39
helios21Pipewire with a more broad scope.22:39
helios21Maybe some day someone will come with a replacement of Systemd that bears in mind modularity, do one thing flexibly, quickly and reliably and so on.22:39
redrickhelios21:  uselessd used to be a thing.22:40
helios21redrick: well, yes.22:40
helios21runit, s6 or so also go in a good direction22:40
redrickI not only agree but also have been known to write long-winded technical docs on that point.22:41
helios21you can see systemd as you like, but IMHO it brought some consistency… its varioud *ctl tools all work the same way22:41
helios21However behind it there is mostly a fat blob of 1,3 MiB binary22:41
helios21and a library that may be even huger22:41
MinceR"more broad scope" as in Does Everything (And Does It Wrong)?22:43
MinceR>a replacement of Systemd that bears in mind modularity,22:43
MinceRwe have many of those22:43
MinceRlike sysvinit22:43
MinceR>it brought some consistency22:44
MinceRyeah, it's consistently evil and broken22:44
MinceRbut maybe you want that22:44
helios21sorry, MinceR I do not see any use in engaging in such a black and white point of view discussion.22:44
MinceRyeah22:44
MinceRi've got to invent some redeeming features for systemd, for the sake of the discussion22:45
helios21So me Systemd is not all bad. I disagree with quite some of how it is implemented, with quite some of the policies behind it, I strongly disagree with the approach upstream showed regarding feedback, but I do also see good ideas in systemd here and there22:45
MinceRi've heard so much of these alleged good ideas, but never seen any of them22:47
MinceRthe mythical Good Ideas of systemd22:47
helios21MinceR: well I do like that on Systemd based systems for example you can to locale and timezone settings all in the same way no matter where the distro saves that information and I also like the some of the proposol of using the same configuration file for the same thing on different distros.22:54
MinceRyeah, that's because they're practically one distro, controlled by red hat22:55
helios21I also do like that systemd monitors the processes of the services it starts, but I see that runit does that as well.22:55
MinceRso your problem is that multiple distros exist and they're different22:55
MinceRproprietary software solves this "problem" for you22:55
helios21MinceR: I do not buy into the its all by Red Hat thing. AFAIK Lennart started systemd before he worked for Red Hat.22:55
MinceRi don't buy into this "everybody has to do it my way even if my way is stupid" bullshit22:56
MinceRfor those who do, there's windows and macos22:56
MinceRit's even illegal to fix those :>22:57
helios21MinceR: actually I do not buy into any "I am against systemd cause I hate it and it must be all bad" kind of approach, I never did. I got rid of Systemd on most of my systems but I also teach Linux trainings and for that I also teach people about systemd, also telling the disadvantages and some of the discussion and conflict around system, but when looking deeper into systemd stuff in order to explain it to people, I found some good ideas as well22:57
helios21But of course you do not have to agree with any of that, but then its best we agree to disagree.22:58
helios21I do not buy into "everyone has to do it may way" either, that is one of the things I meant with how (some) of upstream developers dealt with feedback in the past.22:58
MinceRso you pretend some of the ideas are good in an effort to appear balanced22:59
helios21I believe that even more than all the technical issues Systemd has, how upstream deals with feedback is the much bigger issue22:59
MinceRwho cares about facts when you can "look balanced" instead22:59
* Evilham is bored of reading the same conversation over and over again :-p22:59
cernaHello, I am thinking about trying the Devuan out. However, I got used to the Pantheon desktop from https://gandalfn.ovh/ on Debian. Do anybody know if I can use this prepacked effort on Devuan or if there is something similar?22:59
andi89giwell, I agree to helios21 -  some good features are on systemd for sure. But black and white discussions are not very helpful22:59
MinceRmaybe you can get poettering to come up with some actual good ideas so you don't have to pretend bad ideas are good23:00
andi89giWe have always to discuss and look on the whole development of systemd. Saying Red Hat has money and is bad...is not a good argument. Therefore be open minded23:02
MinceRand who said that?23:02
fsmithredcerna, 95% of the packages in devuan come from debian and are unchanged23:02
fsmithredif it doesn't require systemd, it will probably work23:03
MinceR"open mindedness" is not the same as running malware on your systems just because the people who stand behind it say it's the best thing ever23:03
MinceRbtw coming up with random slurs isn't going to make me want to install systemd any more23:04
cernafsmithred: Thanks. Don't know about systemd. Quickes way will be probably to just try it out.23:04
MinceRit just makes you look more suspicious23:04
andi89giMinceR: you're the one opening  such black and white discussion. Open minded is always in whole life a good attitude btw. ;)  Malware can be everywhere.23:04
andi89giMinceR: do what you want - I don't care about your opinion. It's your view on systemd - for me end of discussion23:04
MinceRi'm not the one who brought up the worst thing that ever happened to GNU/Linux23:05
MinceRneither do i about yours23:05
andi89giMinceR: ....23:06
redrickcerna:  Without any objection, I note that it appears pantheon is not yet packaged within Debian, only in a third-party repo.23:24
redrickBut judging by the general description on https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pantheon , it seems unlikely there are problematic dependencies.23:26
cernaredrick: Yes. I was not asking about it being included. Only if somebody knows if it will work.23:26
cernaI just recently camo onto Devuan as of yet didn't install it.23:27
redrick{shrug}  It was certainly worth asking.  If you want to determine if the third-party package has problem dependencies, you could do an analysis such as I did on http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html (e.g., see footnote 4).23:28
fsmithredI think we have all those packages (libpam-systemd: policykit-1, gnome-bluetooth, udisks2, gdm3, gnome-settings-daemon, network-manager)23:36
fsmithredlibpam-elogind23:36
redrickOh yes.  I was pointing to that footnote just to illustrate the use of apt-cache [...] rdepends to find troublesome dependencies.23:37
redrickMy personal policy is to avoid that entire Freedesktop.org stack, but that isn't Devuan Project's policy.23:38
onefangFat Desktop Obscenities as I like to call them.23:39
fsmithredlol23:42
fsmithredhey cerna I just installed the pantheon deb for buster on my beowulf and got no errors or no missing package warnings23:44
fsmithredI guess I should go over and restart that desktop to see what happens23:44
redrickfsmithred: On cerna's behalf, thanks for the smoke test.23:45
fsmithredyeah, well all it did was install a repo configuration23:46
fsmithredlol23:46
fsmithredbrb23:46
fsmithreddespite its adding several packages with gnome in the name, it only adds 52MB23:50
fsmithredholy shit, I got the cinnabar desktop background!23:52
fsmithredlooks like it works23:52
cernafsmithred: Thank you for the test.23:53
cernaredrick: Thank you for thanking in my stead.23:53
fsmithredyeah, I have my doubts about a desktop that requires me to type "log out" in a search bar23:55
fsmithredand then does not log me out23:55
fsmithredcerna, ctrl-PrntScrn-k will get you out.23:56
fsmithredmaybe you know your way around better23:56
onefangI can't find any actual details about what this Pantheon desktop actually is.23:58

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