| ttkv | from a different channel: | 01:11 |
|---|---|---|
| ttkv | <qq> i wish the devuan people hadn't left their fork of the installer as "debian" because it means you can't have both installers on one tftp/pxe server | 01:11 |
| ttkv | is there a place to file bug reports? | 01:12 |
| ttkv | never mind, found https://bugs.devuan.org/ | 01:14 |
| ttkv | also found https://bugs.devuan.org/db/37/37.html | 01:17 |
| systemdlete | somebody is making noise on my network. Whatever it is, is using ipv6 broadcasting to anything that will listen on ports 8610 and 8612. It seems, based on my research on this, it is mainly harmless, but I wonder why it is using those 2 ports, which (according to IANA) are used by Canon printers, of which I have none here (I do have an Epson though). | 05:31 |
| systemdlete | I see firewall blocks in the daily logwatch report on my devuan host system. The source is coming from several systems, including an ascii vm and occasionally from some others. Again, maybe nothing to worry over, but still. Why. | 05:33 |
| furrywolf | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cups/+bug/1671974 | 05:33 |
| furrywolf | that? | 05:33 |
| systemdlete | Those 2 ports, btw, seem to go by 2 different names: bjnp and mfnp | 05:35 |
| systemdlete | (furrywolf: probably) | 05:35 |
| furrywolf | some info in that bug | 05:36 |
| systemdlete | Yes, I've read that report several times already. | 05:36 |
| systemdlete | I've disabled avahi on all my systems, hosts and VMs. Also, at least one commenter says it is not cups-related. | 05:37 |
| systemdlete | Not sure what I think at this point | 05:37 |
| furrywolf | kill things one at a time and see what makes it stop | 05:39 |
| systemdlete | I just tried an experiment: I restarted cups service, and then looked at the ufw log -- no hits (i.e., no block actions taken) | 05:39 |
| systemdlete | One commmenter said it might be coming from colord, which uses ipv6 broadcasts. | 05:40 |
| furrywolf | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104465 ? | 05:40 |
| furrywolf | "Hi, | 05:40 |
| furrywolf | I too was seeing this traffic in my logs and it turns out it's libsane, used by colord, which sends broadcast traffic looking for network scanners." | 05:40 |
| systemdlete | Yes, I read that one already as well. I DID do some footwork before coming here... honestly. | 05:41 |
| furrywolf | fine, I won't try to help. :P | 05:41 |
| systemdlete | I'm trying to be independent and responsible. | 05:41 |
| systemdlete | No, just letting you know I did do some research first. | 05:41 |
| furrywolf | have you determined that the second bug report is incorrect, by, say, removing colord and libsane? | 05:41 |
| systemdlete | libsane, ok. But colord -- will that kill my desktop, window manager, X11, etc. ? | 05:42 |
| systemdlete | or cause some sort of instability? | 05:42 |
| furrywolf | I doubt it. I've never heard of it, so it can't be too important. lol | 05:42 |
| furrywolf | I don't have it installed. | 05:42 |
| furrywolf | it sounds mostly useless from the description | 05:43 |
| furrywolf | it's also FDO. which means incredibly buggyness is a feature. | 05:43 |
| systemdlete | seems saned is disabled here. I have not configured sane at all since installing ascii on my host. | 05:43 |
| furrywolf | try apt-get remove colord... | 05:43 |
| systemdlete | Couldn't I just disable it momentarily? | 05:44 |
| systemdlete | s/Couldn't/Could/ | 05:44 |
| furrywolf | probably? | 05:44 |
| systemdlete | I don't monkey much with X11 or its various systems | 05:44 |
| furrywolf | I'm a fan of removing unneeded software, though, especially when it's FDO software. | 05:44 |
| furrywolf | it has nothing to do with x11. | 05:44 |
| furrywolf | in fact, it wouldn't surprise me if only FDO apps ever use it. | 05:45 |
| systemdlete | doh. Why not try removing/disabling in my testbox (I keep forgetting about that!) | 05:45 |
| furrywolf | yeah, unless you use Gnome Color Manager, you won't miss it. | 05:46 |
| systemdlete | I'm running xfce | 05:46 |
| furrywolf | run aptitude why colord | 05:47 |
| furrywolf | (and if that doesn't work, run apt-get install aptitude. :) | 05:48 |
| systemdlete | "FDO" -- millions of meanings for that one. So please tell me. | 05:49 |
| furrywolf | freedesktop.org | 05:49 |
| systemdlete | for deposit only, flight desk officer, functional device object, to name a few. | 05:49 |
| systemdlete | Ah!! thanks | 05:49 |
| furrywolf | the people who brought you other wonderful software, like pulseaudio and systemd. | 05:50 |
| furrywolf | and generally everything else that's against anything devuan stands for. :) | 05:50 |
| systemdlete | my testbox does not even have colord running! lol | 05:51 |
| furrywolf | not running, or not installed? | 05:51 |
| systemdlete | I wonder why my workbox has it running | 05:51 |
| systemdlete | hmmm. | 05:51 |
| furrywolf | also, aptitude why colord. if it's installed, see what dragged it in, because it sounds largely useless. | 05:52 |
| systemdlete | installed, but not running | 05:52 |
| furrywolf | since people report it happening with usb plugs and such, it could be something that runs on udev/dbus messages | 05:54 |
| systemdlete | colord gone. Pulled in as a "recommends" for cups | 05:56 |
| systemdlete | yeah, I saw that about usb. | 05:56 |
| systemdlete | I only have a couple of usb devices on this machine. One is a monitor for my UPS, and the other has only been attached for a day or 2, whereas this problem goes back a month or so at least. | 05:57 |
| systemdlete | Oh. I just read back... "the people who brought you... pulseaudio and systemd" | 05:58 |
| systemdlete | Somebody got a daemon-construction kit for Christmas one year and just fell in love with it. Started writing daemons for EVERYTHING. And Mom thought that was so cute, she insisted that EVERYONE should use them. | 05:59 |
| systemdlete | The kid was persistent, and he got picked up by a major systems vendor, and grew that into an empire. | 06:02 |
| systemdlete | (You are all just jealous of him, natch...) | 06:02 |
| systemdlete | Well, let's see if these broadcasts go away. Thanks for your help, furrywolf! | 06:03 |
| * systemdlete likes furry things and gives furrywolf a hug | 06:04 | |
| furrywolf | yay, hugs. :) | 06:05 |
| * furrywolf is soft and fluffy! | 06:05 | |
| systemdlete | there was a flurry of the messages again, about 15 minutes ago | 06:09 |
| systemdlete | not sure what set that off though | 06:09 |
| systemdlete | (checking logs) | 06:09 |
| furrywolf | I really hate software that does things like that. | 06:10 |
| furrywolf | (randomly sending stuff without you configuring it) | 06:11 |
| systemdlete | well, that was prior to removing colord | 06:11 |
| systemdlete | the only other possibility -- a big maybe -- is when I switched to my testbox and back, when I inspected the colord there. Using my usb switch seems to cause a system-wide bus scan each time (I see the log messages) | 06:12 |
| systemdlete | and, if this problem has that usb "hook" to it, then maybe that generated the messages. | 06:13 |
| alfon | Hi. I'm using the 4 version of linux kernel, not debianized and compiled for my own, on Debian Jessie. The Migrate to Devuan Ascii documentation does't menction anythig about the kernel. Someone knows if there is any problem? | 08:21 |
| alfon | Sorry: 4.1.2 exactly | 08:22 |
| debdog | alfon: unlikely but not impossible | 08:43 |
| debdog | doublecheck the bootloader after the update and before rebooting. | 08:44 |
| plasma41 | alfon: If a package expects a feature of a newer kernel than you are running, then that might cause an issue. I know of no specific examples of such a package. | 08:44 |
| plasma41 | Other than that scenario, I foresee no issue. | 08:45 |
| alfon | plasma41: You recommed upgrade the kernel for safe? | 08:47 |
| alfon | What is the recommended kernel for Devuan Ascii version? | 08:48 |
| plasma41 | ASCII uses the 4.19 kernel. | 08:50 |
| alfon | plasma41: Ok, thanks. I upgrade to that version then... before break anything | 08:54 |
| plasma41 | I doubt your current kernel will cause any breakage. 4.1 is really old though. | 08:57 |
| alfon | plasma41: Do you thik that is safe to migrate from Debian Jessie to Ascii with that kernel then? | 09:00 |
| plasma41 | I believe so | 09:01 |
| plasma41 | Honestly I'm surprised you are running 4.1 with Jessie when it uses 4.9 by default. | 09:02 |
| plasma41 | Wait I take back that last sentence. | 09:03 |
| plasma41 | It's Beowulf that uses 4.19. ASCII uses 4.9. | 09:03 |
| alfon | plasma41: Like I said I don't use the Debian kernel packages. I downloaded the tar from kernel.org and then compiled the sources... Not recommended I know... :-S | 09:06 |
| alfon | ASCCI is the stable version right? | 09:07 |
| plasma41 | correct, ASCII is stable | 09:08 |
| plasma41 | I don't use the Devuan-provided kernel either. I use the Linux-libre kernel from the freesh repo https://jxself.org/linux-libre/ | 09:09 |
| alfon | Hosti! That is new for me. I'll take a look | 09:14 |
| alfon | plasma41: Thank you for the info. | 09:21 |
| plasma41 | np | 09:22 |
| plasma41 | let us know how it goes | 09:22 |
| andi89gi | Hi guys, I've read that Devuan should be listed on FSF /GNU? | 19:56 |
| drawkula | why sould we care? | 20:02 |
| andi89gi | I don't know? Is it just an idea or to be discussed? | 20:02 |
| golinux | Devuan provides non-free firmware if needed so is ineligible to be on the FSF list. | 20:05 |
| drawkula | I'd probably need to trash some of my systems without nonfree stuff | 20:06 |
| golinux | Yet they have no problem with systemd which limits users choice of inits. | 20:06 |
| andi89gi | golinux: ah okay - so Devuan won't fullfill the crtiterias of FSF? | 20:07 |
| golinux | Correct. | 20:07 |
| andi89gi | IMO it's hard to use only free software | 20:07 |
| golinux | We have discussed doing a libre version but we we have our hands full with one version. | 20:08 |
| andi89gi | golinux: yeap indeed - it's a lot to do for Beowulf. It's not such important IMO | 20:08 |
| golinux | We would support it if someone wanted to put it together and maintain it. | 20:08 |
| andi89gi | golinux: ah but wouldn't it be much work? | 20:09 |
| golinux | I think the installer would have to be rewritten a bit. | 20:09 |
| golinux | Currently there are questions about installing non-free | 20:10 |
| andi89gi | Is there a wish of user-base to provide a free Devuan version which is reliable to FSF? | 20:11 |
| golinux | Probably. There are gnuinos and heads derivatives | 20:12 |
| drawkula | what does more damage? thowing away hardware that needs a few nonfree components or making RMS unhappy? | 20:13 |
| golinux | RMS' attitude towards systemd indicates that "freedom" is a relative concept to him. I couldn't care less | 20:14 |
| andi89gi | drwakula: It's good that FSF exists and why not provide a FSF version of Devuan. But IMO our focus should be on the dev process of Beowulf | 20:14 |
| golinux | bbiab | 20:14 |
| andi89gi | bbiab? | 20:15 |
| drawkula | "back soon" or similar | 20:15 |
| andi89gi | thx drawkula - I don't know all short chatmassages | 20:17 |
| andi89gi | anybody using Beowulf as daily OS ? | 20:18 |
| fsmithred | andi89gi, I've been running beowulf to test the desktop theme and a few other things. It's working well, but some things aren't ready yet. | 20:26 |
| andi89gi | fsmithred: okay, which things aren't ready ? I'm considering to switch to beowulf ;) | 20:27 |
| MinceR | i wouldn't care about the fsf criteria as long as they continue to promote systemd as "free" | 20:37 |
| andi89gi | MinceR: yeap this is weird - init is free - not systemd | 20:38 |
| fsmithred | I know some of the desktop stuff is not quite ready | 20:39 |
| fsmithred | if you're used to running debian testing, you'll probably be ok | 20:39 |
| fsmithred | also if you're flexible about which apps to use | 20:40 |
| fsmithred | if you wait until we get some installer isos made, you could help test them. | 20:41 |
| andi89gi | fsmithred: yeah for sure - I can help you out. | 20:42 |
| fsmithred | thanks | 20:42 |
| andi89gi | Gnome won't be offically supported by Devuan bc of too much systemd stuff ,right? | 20:42 |
| fsmithred | right | 20:42 |
| fsmithred | but some people are running it | 20:42 |
| andi89gi | yeah, I like Gnome for sure too. I'm just curious if it works fine on Devuan | 20:44 |
| andi89gi | Gnome can be installed by software manager? I haven't dealed a lot with Gnome on Devuan. | 20:49 |
| fsmithred | same ways as debian: apt, apt-get, aptitude, synatpic | 21:03 |
| MinceR | apparently the FSF is a big fan of constraining what users can do, and of nothing else | 21:03 |
| MinceR | so i prefer to call them the GWF (Gratis Windows Foundation) | 21:04 |
| andi89gi | fsmithred: ok thx | 21:06 |
| andi89gi | MinceR: Yeah, indeed their philosophy is sometimes confusing. On the one hand emphasis on Freedom and on the other hand doing rules ..what might be the best for users. :/ | 21:07 |
| MinceR | perhaps red hat's money trumps their philosophy | 21:07 |
| andi89gi | MinceR: haha bad words :P But I see your point, what you want to figure out | 21:08 |
| helios21 | andi89gi: in forum at dev1galaxy was something that it works with elogind | 21:54 |
| golinux | helios21: Don't you have gnome running on sid without systemd on Debian? | 22:14 |
| helios21 | golinux: nope, no way. Plasma :) | 22:15 |
| helios21 | Plasma with elogind and some services started via runit | 22:15 |
| golinux | Ah right the KDE thingy . . . | 22:15 |
| MinceR | knome | 22:15 |
| golinux | Apologies for my poor memory (It's only going to get worse.) | 22:16 |
| golinux | MinceR: LOL | 22:16 |
| andi89gi | MinceR: Gnome is not bad at all :P | 22:17 |
| MinceR | yeah, "bad" is not heavy enough to express what an evil abomination gnome is | 22:18 |
| MinceR | the DE which randomly breaks keyboard input | 22:18 |
| helios21 | Ask 10 different people about favorite DE / wm setup and receive 15 different answers :) | 22:38 |
| helios21 | I do not like GNOME as well, and I dislike client side decorations. | 22:38 |
| MinceR | poettering will fix that | 22:38 |
| MinceR | there will be The One DE and Its Only WM | 22:38 |
| helios21 | heh. | 22:39 |
| helios21 | At least there seem to be a successor for Pulseaudio in development. | 22:39 |
| helios21 | Pipewire with a more broad scope. | 22:39 |
| helios21 | Maybe some day someone will come with a replacement of Systemd that bears in mind modularity, do one thing flexibly, quickly and reliably and so on. | 22:39 |
| redrick | helios21: uselessd used to be a thing. | 22:40 |
| helios21 | redrick: well, yes. | 22:40 |
| helios21 | runit, s6 or so also go in a good direction | 22:40 |
| redrick | I not only agree but also have been known to write long-winded technical docs on that point. | 22:41 |
| helios21 | you can see systemd as you like, but IMHO it brought some consistency… its varioud *ctl tools all work the same way | 22:41 |
| helios21 | However behind it there is mostly a fat blob of 1,3 MiB binary | 22:41 |
| helios21 | and a library that may be even huger | 22:41 |
| MinceR | "more broad scope" as in Does Everything (And Does It Wrong)? | 22:43 |
| MinceR | >a replacement of Systemd that bears in mind modularity, | 22:43 |
| MinceR | we have many of those | 22:43 |
| MinceR | like sysvinit | 22:43 |
| MinceR | >it brought some consistency | 22:44 |
| MinceR | yeah, it's consistently evil and broken | 22:44 |
| MinceR | but maybe you want that | 22:44 |
| helios21 | sorry, MinceR I do not see any use in engaging in such a black and white point of view discussion. | 22:44 |
| MinceR | yeah | 22:44 |
| MinceR | i've got to invent some redeeming features for systemd, for the sake of the discussion | 22:45 |
| helios21 | So me Systemd is not all bad. I disagree with quite some of how it is implemented, with quite some of the policies behind it, I strongly disagree with the approach upstream showed regarding feedback, but I do also see good ideas in systemd here and there | 22:45 |
| MinceR | i've heard so much of these alleged good ideas, but never seen any of them | 22:47 |
| MinceR | the mythical Good Ideas of systemd | 22:47 |
| helios21 | MinceR: well I do like that on Systemd based systems for example you can to locale and timezone settings all in the same way no matter where the distro saves that information and I also like the some of the proposol of using the same configuration file for the same thing on different distros. | 22:54 |
| MinceR | yeah, that's because they're practically one distro, controlled by red hat | 22:55 |
| helios21 | I also do like that systemd monitors the processes of the services it starts, but I see that runit does that as well. | 22:55 |
| MinceR | so your problem is that multiple distros exist and they're different | 22:55 |
| MinceR | proprietary software solves this "problem" for you | 22:55 |
| helios21 | MinceR: I do not buy into the its all by Red Hat thing. AFAIK Lennart started systemd before he worked for Red Hat. | 22:55 |
| MinceR | i don't buy into this "everybody has to do it my way even if my way is stupid" bullshit | 22:56 |
| MinceR | for those who do, there's windows and macos | 22:56 |
| MinceR | it's even illegal to fix those :> | 22:57 |
| helios21 | MinceR: actually I do not buy into any "I am against systemd cause I hate it and it must be all bad" kind of approach, I never did. I got rid of Systemd on most of my systems but I also teach Linux trainings and for that I also teach people about systemd, also telling the disadvantages and some of the discussion and conflict around system, but when looking deeper into systemd stuff in order to explain it to people, I found some good ideas as well | 22:57 |
| helios21 | But of course you do not have to agree with any of that, but then its best we agree to disagree. | 22:58 |
| helios21 | I do not buy into "everyone has to do it may way" either, that is one of the things I meant with how (some) of upstream developers dealt with feedback in the past. | 22:58 |
| MinceR | so you pretend some of the ideas are good in an effort to appear balanced | 22:59 |
| helios21 | I believe that even more than all the technical issues Systemd has, how upstream deals with feedback is the much bigger issue | 22:59 |
| MinceR | who cares about facts when you can "look balanced" instead | 22:59 |
| * Evilham is bored of reading the same conversation over and over again :-p | 22:59 | |
| cerna | Hello, I am thinking about trying the Devuan out. However, I got used to the Pantheon desktop from https://gandalfn.ovh/ on Debian. Do anybody know if I can use this prepacked effort on Devuan or if there is something similar? | 22:59 |
| andi89gi | well, I agree to helios21 - some good features are on systemd for sure. But black and white discussions are not very helpful | 22:59 |
| MinceR | maybe you can get poettering to come up with some actual good ideas so you don't have to pretend bad ideas are good | 23:00 |
| andi89gi | We have always to discuss and look on the whole development of systemd. Saying Red Hat has money and is bad...is not a good argument. Therefore be open minded | 23:02 |
| MinceR | and who said that? | 23:02 |
| fsmithred | cerna, 95% of the packages in devuan come from debian and are unchanged | 23:02 |
| fsmithred | if it doesn't require systemd, it will probably work | 23:03 |
| MinceR | "open mindedness" is not the same as running malware on your systems just because the people who stand behind it say it's the best thing ever | 23:03 |
| MinceR | btw coming up with random slurs isn't going to make me want to install systemd any more | 23:04 |
| cerna | fsmithred: Thanks. Don't know about systemd. Quickes way will be probably to just try it out. | 23:04 |
| MinceR | it just makes you look more suspicious | 23:04 |
| andi89gi | MinceR: you're the one opening such black and white discussion. Open minded is always in whole life a good attitude btw. ;) Malware can be everywhere. | 23:04 |
| andi89gi | MinceR: do what you want - I don't care about your opinion. It's your view on systemd - for me end of discussion | 23:04 |
| MinceR | i'm not the one who brought up the worst thing that ever happened to GNU/Linux | 23:05 |
| MinceR | neither do i about yours | 23:05 |
| andi89gi | MinceR: .... | 23:06 |
| redrick | cerna: Without any objection, I note that it appears pantheon is not yet packaged within Debian, only in a third-party repo. | 23:24 |
| redrick | But judging by the general description on https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pantheon , it seems unlikely there are problematic dependencies. | 23:26 |
| cerna | redrick: Yes. I was not asking about it being included. Only if somebody knows if it will work. | 23:26 |
| cerna | I just recently camo onto Devuan as of yet didn't install it. | 23:27 |
| redrick | {shrug} It was certainly worth asking. If you want to determine if the third-party package has problem dependencies, you could do an analysis such as I did on http://linuxmafia.com/faq/Debian/openrc-conversion.html (e.g., see footnote 4). | 23:28 |
| fsmithred | I think we have all those packages (libpam-systemd: policykit-1, gnome-bluetooth, udisks2, gdm3, gnome-settings-daemon, network-manager) | 23:36 |
| fsmithred | libpam-elogind | 23:36 |
| redrick | Oh yes. I was pointing to that footnote just to illustrate the use of apt-cache [...] rdepends to find troublesome dependencies. | 23:37 |
| redrick | My personal policy is to avoid that entire Freedesktop.org stack, but that isn't Devuan Project's policy. | 23:38 |
| onefang | Fat Desktop Obscenities as I like to call them. | 23:39 |
| fsmithred | lol | 23:42 |
| fsmithred | hey cerna I just installed the pantheon deb for buster on my beowulf and got no errors or no missing package warnings | 23:44 |
| fsmithred | I guess I should go over and restart that desktop to see what happens | 23:44 |
| redrick | fsmithred: On cerna's behalf, thanks for the smoke test. | 23:45 |
| fsmithred | yeah, well all it did was install a repo configuration | 23:46 |
| fsmithred | lol | 23:46 |
| fsmithred | brb | 23:46 |
| fsmithred | despite its adding several packages with gnome in the name, it only adds 52MB | 23:50 |
| fsmithred | holy shit, I got the cinnabar desktop background! | 23:52 |
| fsmithred | looks like it works | 23:52 |
| cerna | fsmithred: Thank you for the test. | 23:53 |
| cerna | redrick: Thank you for thanking in my stead. | 23:53 |
| fsmithred | yeah, I have my doubts about a desktop that requires me to type "log out" in a search bar | 23:55 |
| fsmithred | and then does not log me out | 23:55 |
| fsmithred | cerna, ctrl-PrntScrn-k will get you out. | 23:56 |
| fsmithred | maybe you know your way around better | 23:56 |
| onefang | I can't find any actual details about what this Pantheon desktop actually is. | 23:58 |
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