freenode/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2019-09-04

systemdleteany way to mount hfsplus partition r/w from Devuan?   I've installed hfsplus, hfsutils, and hfsprogs, but still won't mount writable.05:04
gnarfacesystemdlete: make sure the right module loaded, there's like two major eons of "hfs" and i think there are separate tools for each, and separate modules, and the modules may conflict...05:40
gnarfacesystemdlete: either that or maybe you have to pass a flag to the module to disable safety mode or something05:40
systemdletegnarface:  I am trying to install ascii onto a new laptop (ASUS T101H).  The install hangs when it gets to detecting CD-ROM (probably because there is none?).  I think I've encountered this before, but I forget the magic.07:05
systemdleteIt is a 2-in-1 with a eMMC disk07:06
golinux_Don't you have to comment that out in sources.list?07:06
systemdletecomment out... ?07:07
systemdletehow do I do that?07:07
systemdlete(I think you are right, now that I recall...)07:08
systemdlete(but forgot how to...)07:08
golinux_with nano but I have no idea how to access it.07:09
systemdleteyou mean, in the live booted image on the laptop?  Like, from a console?07:09
golinux_I don't install very often and have that device in my tower.07:09
systemdleteor do you mean in the ISO image somehow?07:09
golinux_I not one who can answer your question unfortunately.07:10
systemdleteok, thanks.07:11
agrisI just read this07:45
agrisIs devuan planning on adding gtk2 libraries to the project as well?07:45
agrisif the debian-gnome team successfully purges gtk2 from debian07:45
agriswhat does this mean for Devuan?07:58
gnarfacesystemdlete: try it in expert mode?  i dunno when it says detecting CDROM i thought it meant detecting the image, which if you're booting from USB or something is just an integrity check08:10
gnarfacealso it could just be really slow08:10
systemdletetried it in several modes already.  Tried to find the repo file (but it's not there)08:11
systemdletetrue: slow08:11
gnarfacewhich install image are you using?08:11
systemdlete64bit network install08:11
systemdleteI'll try again later.08:14
agrisI am going to fork pygtk10:25
agrisafter I fix omemo10:26
agrisand fork port gajim 0.16.9 to python310:26
agrisnevermind the previous message about the debian mailing list msg0075010:27
r3bootwhy not just upgrade to 1.1.3??10:27
r3bootgajim is already python310:28
agrisr3boot, because 1.x is gtk3 only, and full of more bugs10:28
agrisI have no intention whatsoever to use gtk3 and have already backported programs I need  back to gtk210:28
r3bootRight, and you submitted bugreports for that and those got unaswered / marked as wont-fix?10:28
r3bootah, okay, well, gl then :)10:29
agrisr3boot, Gajim 0.16.9 does (almost) everything I need it to and the few bugs it does have are known and the solution clear10:29
agrisso I've been working fixing those few bugs10:30
agrisI'd rather fix what I already have and know it's strongpoints + weaknesses than attempt to make gajim 1.x fit my needs and deal with the hundreds of bugs that major gtk change brought upon to the project with it10:32
Centurion_Danagris: I think along with doing that you'll need to fork gtk2 to maintain it sometime soon...   If it's maintained as a fork then Debian is less likely to kick it, although there appears a clear intention to do so regardless.10:33
Centurion_DanAIUI gtk3 is a mess and each point release breaks API and ABI compatibility with previous releases in some way meaning that some packages need to be patched and upgraded in order to continue to work reliably.  That seems a rather insane approach...10:36
agrisCenturion_Dan, as far as I am aware there is no better option. gtk2 is probably the smallest toolkit while still retaining all the features I need and the only other realistic option is to use Motif10:36
agrisI figure maintaining gtk2 may be easier than dealing with gtk310:37
agrisbecause it's already had a decade's worth of bugfixes10:37
agrisand no new features10:37
r3bootCan i checkout your codebase somewhere? I'd love to test10:37
Centurion_Dancall it 4kdgtk10:38
agriswhy not keep it called gtk2. It's not Mozilla licensed or anything10:39
r3bootbecause that'll run into naming conflicts with gtk2, likely10:40
agriswell I won't need to do this until gtk2 /actually/ becomes unmaintained10:40
agrisbecause right now it still receives git commits to a special branch for bugfixes only10:41
agrisand my goal is to provide gtk2, not to change it in some incompatible way10:42
agrisCenturion_Dan, what is the thought process behind that name?10:59
Centurion_Danforked gnome toolkit11:00
onefangThis is why I loled, I figured non many people would get it.  4kd = forked.11:00
agrisalthough I think it's more accurate calling it forked gimp toolkit. still a g though11:01
Centurion_Dancould also consider gtkng - which could imply multiple interpretations like "gimp toolkit not gnomed", "gimp toolkit next generation"11:03
onefangGimp ToolKit, Not Glimpse.11:04
agrisnot gnomed. I like that11:18
agrisI am building a fresh coreboot11:19
agristhey are on GCC 8.3.0 now11:19
agrissuper exciting11:20
lifebookhi! with only 256 MB of ram, beowulf with 4.19 linux is slow and does use swap a lot16:00
lifebookhowever, beowulf with 4.9 linux (from ascii) runs faster, yet less secure (spectre...)16:00
lifebookany advice?16:00
r3bootInstall more ram?16:11
r3bootAlternatively, if that is not an option, install a lightweight OS, like NetBSD or OpenBSD16:12
lifebookthanks @r3boot :)16:14
lifebooksuppose linux is the one and only choice16:15
r3bootnot the one and only, but it is a choice, yes :)16:15
r3bootTo run linux comfortably, 512MB of ram is very much needed. Recommended is to run with atleast 1GB16:16
r3bootespecially with modern kernels16:16
lifebookdo the IoT world use 512MB of ram?16:17
r3bootan esp runs with 320KiB of ram, but those dont run linux. An average arduino has like, 32k of memory16:19
r3bootah, too late :)16:19
lifebookactually, i've tried to find the root cause, with no luck16:20
fsmithredare you using a window manager?16:21
r3bootTo come back on your question wrt IoT and ram usage:16:21
r3boot16:19 < r3boot> an esp runs with 320KiB of ram, but those dont run linux. An average arduino has like, 32k of memory16:21
lifebook@fsmithred openbox wm16:22
lifebooknote that even aptitude triggers the swap16:22
r3bootOn what hardware is this?16:24
lifebook@r3boot a laptop fujitsu siemens lifebook c102016:27
lifebookCPU intel celeron 2 GHz (32 bit)16:27
fsmithredI like to use to see how much memory each program uses. Could also do it with top or htop.16:27
r3bootMja, seriously? Try OpenBSD. You can probably get this to work with linux, dont get me wrong, but the amount of efford you'll need to invest is pretty big.16:29
lifebook@r3boot with the right config, firefox runs well, yet with 4.9 linux16:30
fsmithredThere are lighter window managers: icewm, jwm for example.16:30
lifebook@fsmithred where can one find
fsmithrednot for long. I read recently that newer versions of firefox will require 1 or 2 GB memory16:31
fsmithredI'll check...16:31
sasquatchwhy not use (h)top and sort by size?16:31
sasquatchit#s probably smaller than running a python to get the sizes16:32
fsmithredsasquatch, do you happen to know the option to use for that?16:33
r3bootps -o vsz,rss,comm16:34
r3bootthat'll give you just the memory details16:34
fsmithredI've only used I don't know what the other files are.16:34
r3bootno need for 3rd party tools ;)16:34
lifebook@fsmithred @r3boot thanks :)16:35
fsmithredhm, that command doesn't do what I want when I run it over ssh.16:35
lifebooki think this is related to memory management16:36
lifebook4.9 and 4.19 do not manage memory the same way16:36
x3dreIs it possible to downgrade from ascii to jessie ?16:36
r3bootfsmithred: if you dont specify any additional options, it will only show the processes in your current process group. You can add (say) ax to the commandline to get a more full listing16:36
x3dreIf so can you point me to the documentation ?16:36
sasquatchps is as 3rd party as top... .-P from same package16:36
r3bootsasquatch: this was in reference to htop and ps_mem16:37
fsmithredx3dre, you would have to pin jessie packages to 1001 then update and upgrade, but why would you want to do that?16:37
r3bootsasquatch: yes, and top is part of psutils, but htop is not16:38
r3boot.. or am I mistaking here, could be16:38
r3bootah, no, not part of psutils :)16:38
fsmithredit's in procps16:39
fsmithredthat's what apt-file tells me16:39
x3dreBecause I have two latops one with the older jessie and the other with ascii and the stable version runs well it seems, where the ascii seems to be missing dependencies ...16:39
r3bootfsmithred: is that something devuan specific? If I look at debian, htop is in a dedicated package:
fsmithredr3boot, "it" referred to /usr/bin/top16:40
fsmithredyes, htop is its own package16:40
sasquatchand very user friendly...16:41
lifebookby ram : pidgin, nm-applet, Xorg16:41
* r3boot uses UNIX tools mostly, so I would not know tbh :]16:41
r3booteg, ps is just fine, since that gives all the info I need16:42
fsmithreds/pidgin/irssi/, s/nm-applet/?(maybe nothing)/16:42
r3bootyeah, you can skip networkmanager if you properly configure /etc/network/interfaces and wpa_supplicant16:43
fsmithredsetnet in the repo is lightweight (curses)16:43
fsmithredthere are curses or cli versions of wicd and I think network-manager16:44
fsmithredand yeah, lightest is none of those16:44
lifebookaptitude uses curses however with 4.19 kernel as soon as it plays with database then it triggers the swap16:44
r3bootthe only thing you really need to configure for almost all desktops (excluding special setups), is dhcp + working wireless. dhcp is a static configuration (from the PoV of the OS), so no need for a manager for that. Wireless is a one-time editing of a configuration file16:44
r3bootSo personally, I'd bite the bullet, learn how networking works, configure it, and be done with it :)16:45
lifebookwith this swap trouble, i've learned a bit about linux and the scheduler16:46
lifebookit feels like linux 4.19 is running with a friend16:48
fsmithredyou might try messing with swappiness setting16:48
fsmithredgotta go. bbl.16:48
lifebookthank you @fsmithred16:49
lifebooki did not try with linux from backports16:50
lifebooki should do that, maybe16:50
lifebookcan't wait for the beowulf release :-D17:03
nemohm... somehow I missed the knoppix news17:29
nemoI'm guessing rest of channel did not17:30
WonkaI don't know what you're talking about?17:31
golinuxnemo: Yeah . . . a lot of it was on #debianfork (where it should be)17:31
golinuxThis is not the Knoppix channel.  ;)17:31
nemogolinux: heh.17:38
nemogolinux: I wasn't on the #debianfork channel, nor the knoppix channel, thus I was trying to keep my commentary light17:39
nemoit was mostly a \o/ for reinforcements for devuan17:39
nemoso.  I might be forced to switch a bunch of dev servers at work from Devuan to Debian because the backup solution provider does not officially support Devuan18:27
nemonevermind the fact that probably the only thing missing is an init script, and maybe not even that.  It's about checklists and I may not get a choice18:27
nemowe'll see, but to be defensive... is the best option to stand up a clean new instance, or could I possibly switch over in /etc/apt ?18:28
nemoand yes I'm not happy about this either ☹18:29
kiwi_51hello I m fighting the hibernation fall out on my computer, so I believed devuan a fairer seat, is it?21:29
gnarfaceno way to know for you without trying it21:31
gnarfacethere is a live image though21:31
golinuxCan you hibernate a live image?21:33
kiwi_51golinux: pardon? "hibernate a live image" what do you mean?21:34
gnarfacei assumed so, but i guess that could be naive.21:34
gnarfaceyou'd have to have enough swap already allocated21:35
golinuxfsmithred needs to answer that.21:35
golinuxI always just suspend.  Hibernation can be tricky.21:36
fsmithredI think so.21:36
fsmithredyou need to have and use the swap21:36
fsmithredmight need to add a boot option21:37
fsmithredhang on...21:37
fsmithredif you're booting legacy bios, press TAB to edit the isolinux boot menu21:37
fsmithredif you're booting uefi, press e to edit the grub boot menu21:38
fsmithredkiwi_51, ^^^21:38
kiwi_51ok, thank you, then I see if hibernation works on devuan live cd.21:40
debdogkiwi_51: what hardware? I am fightinh a similar issue21:42
fsmithredwhat kind of problems are you having with hibernation?21:42
kiwi_51And the hibernation problem is touched by the systemd issue, what do you mean?21:42
gnarfacejust let him try it first guys21:43
gnarfacethere's no way of knowing otherwise21:43
gnarfacekiwi_51: we're all wondering if your issue is a kernel issue or a userspace support issue.  but we can only really collectively guess until you provide some clear test results21:44
gnarfacekiwi_51: if it is the former, then devuan won't behave any differently from debian.  if it is the latter, then maybe we can help where systemd failedyou.21:44
gnarfacethat's only a maybe21:44
gnarfacebut you're not alone either way21:44
gnarfaceif it is very new hardware, the kernel issue may be more likely21:46
kiwi_51It already functioned.21:47
gnarfaceyou mean it used to work?  that is a good sign21:47
kiwi_51I will do as you told me.21:47
kiwi_51a lot thanks.21:48
gnarfacegood luck21:49
kiwi_51I come back with test results after installation...21:49
gnarfacekiwi_51: to be clear: do not install with the livecd21:50
gnarfacejust boot it21:50
gnarfacethen test hibernate21:50
gnarface(expect it to be a little slow)21:54

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