freenode/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2019-09-24

plasma41Who is the op for this channel?00:45
buZzwhy00:45
plasma41The topic could use an update00:46
buZzto reference that offtopic channel?00:46
plasma41Among other things00:46
buZzparazyd is the topicwriter :D00:47
buZzbut beowulf isnt out yet00:47
buZzis it?00:47
fsmithreddoes it still say 'post-ascii bikeshed'?00:48
buZzit does not00:48
buZzthat i can see00:48
plasma41fsmithred: That's in the #devuan-dev topic still00:48
buZzisnt that fine? :)00:49
plasma41parazyd: Is probably asleep right now if I have my timezones straight00:49
fsmithredwell, technically we are post-ascii release00:49
fsmithredand will be for eternity00:49
plasma41s/parazyd: Is/parazyd is/00:49
buZzreal nerds never sleep00:50
buZz;)00:50
onefangI'm a real nerd, and I should sleep soon.  That way I can sleep through the water being turned off for the day.  ;-P00:50
onefangI agree the topic should change, I made my suggestion a while ago, at least for the first sentence.00:51
fsmithredthat didn't work as expected00:51
fsmithredI think this topic is ok00:52
fsmithredit's timeless00:52
fsmithredJoin us, and celebrate in freedom and justice00:52
* timeless looks up00:52
fsmithredoh, sorry00:52
onefanglol00:52
fsmithredyou may go back to sleep if you wish00:52
timelessthanks, sounds like a good plan00:52
timelessno celebrating for me00:53
fsmithredsorry to hear it00:53
fsmithredyou at work?00:53
timelessyes :-)00:53
fsmithredGet back to sleep!00:53
timelessactually i have to go to a (non-work) meeting00:53
fsmithredprobably should be awake for that00:54
timelesssince it involves roads and the last time i tried i was almost killed...00:54
* onefang yawns and heads to bed.00:54
timelessoperator was proceeding in the wrong direction at a reasonable clip on a crowded road, head-on at me...00:55
fsmithredyikes00:55
fsmithredback in a few minutes01:10
fsmithredmy jessie is dying. :(02:07
fsmithredcan't get to the desktop. It starts to load, I see background image and panels start to come up, then the monitor tells me that it's shutting down02:08
fsmithredI can ssh in02:08
fsmithredI can drop to console with crtl-alt-F1 before I log in (using lightdm) but not after I log in. (or after the screen goes black.)02:09
fsmithredmagic sysrq keys don't work.02:09
buZzfsmithred: possibly a gpu issue?03:31
fsmithredonly happens with one user03:35
fsmithredme03:36
fsmithredmight be xrandr03:36
fsmithredI'll disable it and try again03:36
fsmithredthat worked.03:41
fsmithredand running xrandr again to separate my two monitors kills them again03:42
fsmithredbut it didn't do that when I rebooted into ascii/openbox, and I'm sure I didn't have mirrored monitors.03:43
buZzcurious\03:43
buZzmaybe you configured xrandr in your xorg conf?03:45
fsmithredno xorg.conf03:47
fsmithredit runs from .config/autostart/lxrandr.desktop in xfce and from .config/openbox/autostart in openbox03:48
fsmithredsame settings in both systems03:48
gnarfacemaybe a tiny bit of bad video ram?03:50
fsmithredmaybe03:50
gnarfacemirrored mode uses less video ram i think03:50
fsmithredpsu fan is kinda noisy.03:50
fsmithredthe noise comes and goes in a regular cycle03:51
fsmithredthis thing has wonky graphics anyway. It does not like a grub background image. It posterizes them.03:57
fsmithredI think its code name is skylake03:58
golinuxSkylake is known to be Linux unfriendly03:59
gnarfaceyea that's another one that needed a newer kernel03:59
gnarfaceyou said that was jessie? i didn't even know that kernel would boot it03:59
golinuxThere is an early post on the form that talks about it.  All the *lakes have similar issues.04:00
fsmithredwhen it was new, only xubuntu-14 worked04:00
fsmithredseems ok with ascii.04:01
golinuxOK04:02
fsmithredI can put the drives back in the other box, which is more appropriate for winter.04:02
fsmithredsleepy time.04:03
fsmithredprobably should sign off, too.04:03
fsmithredsee y'all tomorrow or so04:04
chomwitthi from greece.08:26
chomwitti am a virtual private server nomad... bytemark , hosteurope now a greek company that wont allow me to install on my own a new os on my cloud server, an on top of all that i d like to run devuan, so are there any server providers suggested?08:28
gnarfacesomeone definitely has an answer to that08:37
golinuxchomwitt: Maybe https://devuanhosting.com/08:39
onefangI use and recommend Yisp.nl.  The let me install my own OS, which is Devuan.  They where looking at providing official Devuan support.08:40
chomwittthanks.08:41
chomwitti also check https://devuanhosting.com/08:42
chomwittbut the currency may be an issue08:42
MinceRseems to be automatically converted upon paying with debit/credit card08:43
onefangLast I checked Yisp accepts Euros (what I pay them with), US$, and Bitcoin (I think).08:44
onefangAnd yes, credit / debit cards and PayPal usually automatically convert currencies, for a small fee.08:44
MinceRwhat sort of technology is yisp.nl built on?08:47
yetihttps://yisp.nl/ <<< high performance? page took >15 sec to load...08:48
onefangI've been with them for a long time.  Started on a VPS, now I'm on a Supermicro Xeon server.  Things might have changed.08:48
onefangWhen I switched, I ended up with twice the RAM, better performance, and cheaper rent.  B-)08:49
MinceRwell, at least with a dedicated server, you know your stuff doesn't have systemd underneath08:50
onefanghttps://sledjhamr.org is my server, one of the Devuan mirrors.08:51
chomwittbitcoin is cool in case of problems in euroland, in the greek crisis i couldnt pay bytemark with a bank transfer!!08:54
chomwittonefang: does Yisp offers a web interface to select from a list of OS images to do a 'format' anytime i want or i have to ask it ?09:00
onefangI'm not sure.  My last OS "format" I asked for a temporary disk to be installed, and did a debootstrap Devuan ASCII install on it, then swapped over, coz that's what I wanted to do.09:01
onefangAh they have a "(Re)install" button, I'm not gonna click on it to see what it does.  I'd guess it'll give you a choice of operating systems to install or re-install.09:06
onefangI had written a debootstrap based script that I extensively tested at home before I unleashed it on my server, to install exactly the Devuan setup I wanted.09:09
xinomiloif you don't mind asking for format each time, there's a small greek coop that offers vps with debian/devuan.09:33
chomwittxinomilo: interested, since i also value low latency and pingtime on a server for greek visitors09:39
chomwittin my current cloud server i have debian 9. could i transform it to devuan without asking the hostcompany09:40
chomwitt?09:40
onefangDebian Stretch to Devuan ASCII upgrades are well supported by Devuan.09:41
xinomiloit's on germany based data center, unmanaged. remember this a small coop not big cloud provider...09:43
xinomiloif you're interessted message me, i don't like ads09:44
xinomilo:)09:44
avboxJust for your information, I made a new version of AVMultimedia, the full desktop (around 6 GB uncompressed) starts now in 10 seconds, have a look here: https://youtu.be/sbDpZUgil1w11:12
avboxUnfortunatelly obs does not capture the first splash screen, but yes, it is realtime and I get this startng speed to on a normal notebook, on very old ones it is about 30 seconds, but not mor.11:13
zoobabI guess everybody here saw SystemD eating /home15:40
onefangThen went off to #debianfork to discuss it.  I hope.  B-)15:41
zoobabhttps://streaming.media.ccc.de/asg2019/relive/16415:41
zoobabhttps://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/opengl-vulkan-mesa-gallium3d/1127452-systemd-homed-systemd-now-working-to-improve-home-directory-handling15:42
onefangThe story has been posted here a couple of times.15:42
onefang#debianfork is the better place to discuss it, this is a support channel.15:43
nemognarface: apt-get -t ascii-backports install linux-image-4.19   ?15:56
nemoonefang: used to be a general gossip channel so understandable people get confused15:57
nemoonefang: and... occasionally used to discuss distro planning, so how things like debian or systemd could impact its maintenance is relevant, but I guess clearly we are mostly looking to gossip15:57
onefangDevuan planning stuff has it's own channels now.  Which also got that story posted there before.15:59
nemoin any case, even if this channel still was into gossip he's late to the story 😝16:00
nemoso16:00
nemohaving trouble selecting a backports linux kernel16:00
nemoanyone know how one does that in debian?16:00
nemowas reading https://wiki.debian.org/HowToUpgradeKernel16:00
nemoso I tried the apt-get line above16:01
nemoresulted in:16:01
nemo linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.5-amd64 : Conflicts: linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.5-amd64-unsigned but 4.19.37-5+deb10u2~bpo9+1 is to be installed16:01
nemoah. looks like:16:02
nemoapt-get -t ascii-backports install linux-image-amd6416:02
nemois the correct name16:03
nemobut...16:03
nemo linux-image-amd64 : Depends: linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64 but it is not installable16:03
nemobleh16:03
nemohm. wonder if the devuan backports are simply incomplete16:05
xinomiloapt install  linux-image-amd64/ascii-backports ?16:10
xinomilosometimes "-t" flag isn't working well16:10
xinomiloshould be the same16:10
nemooh16:15
nemono change16:16
nemohum16:16
nemowelp. lemme see if linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64 exists in the devuan package search16:16
nemohttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/stage/ascii/ascii-backports/linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64-unsigned_4.19.67-2~bpo9+1.html16:17
nemois that "unsigned" a problem?16:17
xinomilonot a problem that's just the name https://packages.debian.org/stretch-backports/linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64-unsigned16:22
nemook...16:22
nemohttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/stage/ascii/ascii-backports/linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.5-amd64_4.19.37-5+deb10u2~bpo9+1.html16:22
nemodoes not have unsigned16:22
nemoand, presumably it does indicate something about the package 'cause synaptic notes it as (unsigned) in the packagel ist16:22
* nemo shrugs. anyway. can't seem to install it, apt-get install -f isn't indicating any breakage..16:23
nemoI guess I could just try downloading the .debs and installing 'em that way16:24
xinomilosuppose you run `apt update`  ?16:24
nemoyes16:24
nemoseveral times16:24
xinomilohmm16:24
nemowish it would give me a bit more detail as to *why* linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64 is not installable16:25
nemooh. hm.16:25
nemoE: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.16:25
nemoI fail at reading 😃16:25
nemobut... but... I held a package? whaaat?  maybe back when I manually installed to get this thing working16:25
nemowelp. let's see if I can find out what packages have hold flags16:25
nemoapt-mark showhold returns nothing16:26
nemonothing in dpk -l either16:27
xinomilook, watching it here as well16:27
xinomiloapt install linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64-unsigned16:28
xinomiloskip linux  metapackage16:28
xinomiloprobably trouble there16:28
nemotranslation?16:28
xinomilolinux-image-amd64 is a metapackage depending on the actual kernel deb16:29
xinomilowhich is currently in ascii-backports :  linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64-unsigned16:30
nemook..16:31
nemoxinomilo: that part is implied by what apt is doing, I was wondering what "probably trouble there" meant - did you find somethin?16:34
xinomilothis is the correct package : https://pkginfo.devuan.org/stage/ascii/ascii-backports/linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64-unsigned_4.19.67-2~bpo9+1.html16:35
nemooh. so the metapackage is pointing to a bad name string16:35
nemoso... how do I install it cleanly. extract every package listed in the meta and install them one by one?16:36
xinomilometa tries to install kernel deb without "-unsigned" in the end. and it fails16:39
xinomilo Depends:16:39
xinomilo    linux-image-4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd6416:39
xinomilosame in debian, probably bug there16:40
xinomilohttps://packages.debian.org/stretch-backports/linux-image-amd6416:40
nemowhy is bpo.5 signed and bpo.6 unsigned?16:40
nemoalways a bit worrying to me to see a key package have a word like "unsigned" in it ☺16:41
nemoeven if I have no idea what it means in practice for the kernel16:41
xinomiloprobably because of this : https://release.debian.org/transitions/html/auto-linux-signed-amd64.html16:41
xinomilodon't really know16:42
xinomilothere it is : https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=94104216:43
nemoxinomilo: oh. good.  I guess I just have bad timing17:23
nemoxinomilo: been waiting for this kernel for a year and I pick the day they break the backport )17:23
xinomiloyou can still install the unsigned package without trouble17:25
nemoxinomilo: just have to do it all manually17:25
nemoxinomilo: future upgrades will proceed normally?17:25
nemothere's no other packages in the meta?17:25
xinomilono future upgrades need to be done by hand, untill meta is fixed17:27
james1138General question about Devuan in its beginnings. Not a complaint - just wondering. Why the decision to make LXQT as one of the options for a desktop on Devuan instead of LXDE??17:33
FatPhilany ideas why my raspi refuses to enact the changes that ntpd tells it to make?18:16
FatPhilIt keeps saying stuff like "adjusting local clock by -149.744902s" in syslog, as it just drifts further and further from reality.18:16
FatPhilsome time in the past a restart of openntpd forced it to fix itself, but even that didn't work today.18:17
r3bootis this xntpd or openntpd? And is bursting enabled?18:18
FatPhilopenntpd, and I don't know what bursting is.18:18
FatPhilabsolutely stock .conf18:19
r3bootif your time is N seconds off from ntp time, the ntp daemon will step towards the wanted time in small increments. xntpd knows burst/iburst, which allows you to set the time right w/o needing to step18:19
r3bootSounds like openntpd does bursting @ startup tho... Dont have a lot of experience with it tho, avid xntpd user here18:20
FatPhilI don't particularly care how it gets to the correct time, whether gradually or in one step, as long as it actually does it. the daemon wakes up often enough for less than a jiffy's new drift.18:21
FatPhilyeah, with no battery/rtc on the pi, it has to burst at boot time. I'm curious why it didn't do anything on a daemon restart.18:21
r3bootmaybe bc the clock is drifting harder then ntpd can correct for18:22
r3boothave seen  that on quite a lot of esoteric hardware myself18:22
r3bootSee if you can adjust the step size18:22
r3bootand/or the polling intervals18:23
golinuxThere is a post on the forum about this: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=307618:24
FatPhilIt's only drifted .4 s during the day today, so that's not much to keep up with.18:27
r3boot -149.744902s is a lot more then .4s ;)18:28
FatPhilYes, because it last actually changed its time about 50 days ago.18:29
FatPhilIt's now logging "adjusting local clock by -150.127659s"18:29
FatPhilit's almost certainly due to cranky h/w on the pi18:30
r3bootyeah, drift issues are usually caused by crappy hardware18:30
r3bootand ^^ is reason enough to *NOT* use a rpi as a time server :)18:30
FatPhilI notice xntpd isn't an available package for me presently (still on jessie), so I'm a bit stuck with openntpd.18:34
FatPhilOuch! "When ntpd receives a SIGUSR1 signal, it will write ... to syslog" didn't seem to work - it killed the daemon!18:41
FatPhiltrying rdate...18:48
_abc_Reading news: Poettering wants to modify / update the home dir...18:48
FatPhilrdate -n worked fine18:51
golinux_abc_: Old news. Please take it to #debianfork18:55
FatPhilI don't want to criticise the little thing, it normally behaves fine, but this ntpd thing is beginning to be a drag. I really ought to dist-upgrade, and see if things magically fix themselves.18:56
_abc_Does it impact devuan in any way?18:56
_abc_^ golinux18:56
golinuxWhen it does we'll let everyone know.18:57
_abc_Is there a step by step upgrade guide from ascii to err what's the next one called? I see the handy table with versions vs debian versions has moved from the front page of devuan.org?19:27
_abc_This is the one to follow, right? https://devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/19:29
_abc_What was the next step called ? Beowulf? No19:30
yetibeowulf.19:30
_abc_I see only jessie and ascii in mirrors. Where is Beo?19:31
yetiimages arent out yet... maybe except in some pseudo secret places...19:31
_abc_I find ascii has some really ancient packages in it, it's upstream's fault, but I really need the SSL enabled irssi for irc @freenode19:32
yetihttp://deb.devuan.org/devuan/dists/19:32
_abc_thanks19:32
_abc_Is that linked from the top index of devuan.org?19:32
yetino idea...19:33
_abc_Is it okay to mention one is on devuan on #debian and ask for info / advice on packages there?19:34
_abc_I.e. what is the common practice for this?19:34
Jjp137btw, there seems to be a more recent version of irssi in ascii-backports if you want to go that route first19:35
_abc_"more recent" than what. I have ascii-backports in my sources.list and it does not want to go higher than it is now19:35
_abc_irssi 1.0.7-1~deb9u1 (20180213 0139)19:36
Jjp137ascii-backports has 1.2.0-2~bpo9+119:36
_abc_Strange. Let me try to pull it in. Brb19:36
Jjp137ascii-backports never has priority over ascii unless the current installed version is from ascii-backports itself (or something else broke)19:37
_abc_It does not even show it. Just a sec.19:37
yetiapt-cache policy irssi19:37
Jjp137(or more technically, it has a pin priority of 100)19:37
_abc_aptitude shows me only 1.0.7-1~ as above19:38
_abc_So what is the way to make it upgrade to irssi-1.2.2 ?19:39
_abc_I updated the packages list and backports was in the list of updated items.19:39
yetiaptitude should list the different versions19:39
yetiloot at the details if irssi19:39
_abc_It does not. Let's see if aptitude is at the highest version 1st19:40
Jjp137yea go to the bottom and it should have the list of available versions there19:40
golinux_abc_: pkginfo.devuan.org19:40
_abc_golinux: ?19:40
golinuxTo find if we have a package19:41
_abc_Ah now it shows it as 'p"19:41
_abc_Let's see if I can upgrade it19:41
_abc_yay yes. Brb19:41
_abc_Re. Ok I'm on 1.2.219:44
_abc_Why did it work when I selected upgrade in the versions in the package info and not when I tried + on the package name in the main list?19:44
_abc_Will it not upgrade over major (?) version numbers in such cases?19:44
Jjp137b/c the ascii version had higher priority than ascii-backports19:45
_abc_I did not know this. I need to check a number of packages I tried to upgrade with '+' in the main list.19:45
_abc_Jjp137: is this not a little counter productive? Also, I hope security has higher priority than the base distribution?19:45
Jjp137well you're meant to pick and choose from backports and not install everything from it19:46
Jjp137oh and apt-cache policy by itself shows that, at least for me, ascii-security and ascii both have a priority of 500, but in that case then the most recent version applies19:50
_abc_Ok, your advice helped me upgrade a bunch of things from backports.20:30
_abc_Thanks.20:30
_abc_Had to do it manually one by one but I think I covered the important things.20:30
_abc_For now.20:33
buZz_abc_: or just distupgrade to beowulf? :D that doesnt have backports yet20:36
buZzi think ..20:36
_abc_Some day20:39
buZzi upgraded my main workstation some while ago, its nice to suddenly have a whole pile of up2date(r) software20:44
buZzit had ~4000 packages installed, so it was quite an upgrade20:45
adlpaf#django20:47
gnarfacenemo: yea there's some known issue and you gotta use the unsigned one for now.  it's working for you though, right?20:50
gnarfacejames1138: if it is different from debian's options, it probably had something to do with availability of non-systemd patches and volunteer help leading up to launch20:50
gnarfaceFatPhil: uh, the rpi needs some patched ntpd that allows it to do that immediate jump at boot time.  not sure how you don't have it.20:51
gnarfaceFatPhil: (but you could use ntpdate to set it once yourself then start ntpd and watch it to see if it behaves right.  maybe you had just lost the wifi connection to the ntp server or something like that?20:52
buZzgnarface handling backlog like a pro20:52
gnarface)20:52
buZz:)20:52
yetiand the forwardlogs?20:52
yetiaren't logs always "back"? (unless your ntp goes postal...)20:53
buZz:)20:53
gnarfaceunless your irc client can see the future...20:53
buZzbacklog is a term describing open questions from previous20:54
gnarfaceFatPhil:        -g     Normally, ntpd exits with a message to the system log if the offset exceeds the panic threshold, which is 1000 s by default.  This option allows the time to be set to any value without restriction; however,  this  can  happen20:54
gnarface              only once.  If the threshold is exceeded after that, ntpd will exit with a message to the system log.  This option can be used with the -q and -x options.20:54
gnarfaceFatPhil: (setting that is supposed to do it)20:54
gnarfaceFatPhil: (i don't know if that patch ever made it from raspbian to upstream ntpd but it did make it into the devuan ascii image for rpi1)20:55
gnarfaceFatPhil: i have never had a problem with it but i am also not using wireless20:56
gnarfaceyeti: when i try to handle the forwardlogs people get all gripped out and start yelling weird stuff at me like "get out of my brain!  shut up!  you're not God!"20:58
yetiwouldn't openntpd's -s be enough to fix it?20:58
yetiset time from ntp at boot20:59
gnarfacei don't even know if that is openntpd or the bsd one...20:59
gnarfaceon the rpi image20:59
gnarfacei just remember raspbian had to do something weird to it to address this20:59
yeti"the foundaion" sometimes does weitd things20:59
gnarfaceFatPhil: uh, yea so that's a breakthrough.  openntpd *does* show up in the repos but that is *not* the one i'm using21:00
yetia while ago they disabled fsck because it would confuse the user if bootimg sometimes would take longer21:00
gnarfaceFatPhil: i'm just using the one called plain old "ntp"21:00
gnarfaceand i'm using a local time server elsewhere on my LAN to reduce outside influence on the drift and jitter rates21:01
gnarfaceyeti: ugh.21:01
buZzyeti: lol wtf21:04
buZzkeep in mind, raspbian is -not- a raspberry foundation creation ;)21:04
buZzthey only appropriated it to themselves later :P21:04
yeti"a while" was belittled... some years ago would be better wording21:04
buZzyou can run plain debian or devuan on a pi -easily-21:04
buZzand always could have, almost21:05
buZz-only- the pi1 had such ancient cpu that it wasnt supported21:05
yetiI had 2 PIs committing suicide under debian few weeks ago21:05
yetiunbooatble after update21:05
buZzby having /var on SD? :P21:05
yetione pi1 and one oi321:05
buZzah, cute21:05
yetiI'm waiting for newer deboian images before I retry21:06
yetiI wantred to understand debian's kenrel updates to patch that into my devuan pis21:06
yetibut lost drive when they fell apart on the 1st update21:07
yetimy cubies run fine... started as debian and then transgraded to devuan21:07
yetiok... time for some kilojoules...21:08
yeticalories?21:08
_abc_yeti: what foundation disabled fsck?!21:33
phillipsjk_abc_, I have had systemd time-out on a fsck (with debian): they probably assumed everbody is using journalling fielsystems now.22:01
_abc_I understand a journal replay on an unclean umount on a 1-2TB disk is quite long too.22:19
gnarfacei hear that meme alot, like complaints that it takes hours but i haven't managed to get anyone to prove to me that happens when you're not using a shitty raid array that boots in PIO mode22:24
gnarfacebut i have been able to prove there are some conspicuous misbehaviors in the e2fsprogs tools in certain versions22:26
gnarfaceand the only clear motive for sabotaging everyone's boot up process seems to be to frame that mistake for the cause of a filesystem corruption glitch that would have happened anyway but someone is trying to astroturf over22:27
gnarfaceext4 was just not ready for prime time but raspbian project leads seemed to respond as though they had been paid to hide the evidence from noob users22:28
buZzhehe PIO mode :D22:29
gnarfaceat the time i just assumed arrogance and incompetence and a pathological inability to own up to even trivial errors in their own judgement, but now i frankly wouldn't be surprised if they were actually paid22:29

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