freenode/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-09-28

* Digit imagines a gui tool that enables any newbie user to update a package on the server... and wonders why package managers are not already like this.05:27
rwpDigit, Synaptic?05:49
rwpHowever it is rarely just a single package these days.  "Dependencies: foo, libfoo" and all of that...05:49
Digitteknohippierwp: oh, synaptic lets the user update packages on the server!?  um... how?06:05
* Digitteknohippie rummages around the interface and thinks there's been a misunderstanding06:06
rwpIt's a graphical GUI tool for running apt like aptitude, apt-get, or apt but uses a graphical interface.06:18
rwpI am a terminal type so I don't use it but it is there for people who like to use the mouse to use.06:18
* Digit been using debians since mid 00s, thought rwp was saying the user could use synaptic upgrade packages in the database to newer versions so newer versions are available for other users to install through the usual package upgrade methods06:22
Digiti'm guessing that's still something behing a commit priveledges wall or something.  something more archane than is availed to the little end user.  :/06:24
* Digit thinks it a philosophical pedagogy design fail common to all(?) distros06:25
* onefang thinks Digit doesn't have a clue about the amount of work needed to get some packages to actually work with the rest of the operating system. Maybe if Digit wrote an AI packaging system, we wouldn't need clever volunteers to update our distros for us.09:12
Digitsome decade when i bring this up, n get that reply again, i'll actually do that.  next time, third time lucky.09:18
free_speechwhy should a program that I develop on a Devuan platform not work with the rest of Devuan?10:00
onefangDepends, maybe you developed it on an earlier version of Devuan, but some crucial library you depend on changed in some incompatible way in later versions?  And then you have to update your program to work on all versions of this library in all versions of Devuan.  This sort of thing happens.10:03
free_speechI bet that if I install Debian Etch (I'll mention Debian now because of its longer version history), it'll also work on Debian Buster ... didn't ever try this, but I bet it'll work fine.10:05
onefangIn my case the mouse options for tmux keep changing between versions, so my big virtual world project that uses tmux for running the server consoles has to pick a particular version of tmux to be compatible with.  Usually that's what ever version comes with what ever version of what ever operating system I'm currently using on my own server (Devuan ASCII for now).10:05
free_speechMy last sentence does not make the intended sense, so I'll correct it ...10:06
free_speechI bet that if I install Debian Etch (I'll mention Debian now because of its longer version history) and develop a program on Etch, my program will also work on Buster.10:06
free_speechThat's what I wanted to say10:06
onefangIt's entirely possible. But you can't always rely on external projects your program relies on to stay compatible with the way you used it.  This is why distros pick particular versions of particular libraries and stick with them for that particular version of the distro.  Maybe backports will get a more recent version, if it doesn't break too much other code.10:09
onefangWhich is why Digits plan to let ordinary users just update packages on the distros servers is bound to just be pure chaos.  Things WILL break.10:10
onefangSo it's not "a philosophical pedagogy design fail common to all(?) distros" it's just the way the world works.  Things change, you want a stable distro, you better hope the distro maintainers put a lot of work getting the particular versions of everything to work together well for that particular version of the distro, and then that they don't change anything in the particular version you installed that br10:14
onefangeaks anything that's important to you.10:14
onefangWhich is why making a big distro like Devuan is lots of hard work.  If you want to update a package, volunteer to help.10:15
onefangLetting "any newbie user to update a package on the server" will just result in one giant mess that doesn't work for anyone.  Not to mention it'll be a giant security mess as well.10:17
Digitstill seems like madness to me, to not have tooling to help package updating, upfront, so users get even just the visual cues of what's involved in upgrading packages.  just another part of this disconnect i see.10:19
Digitlike the many eyes making all bugs shallow, many package updaters make all packages up to date... and many a leg up sign post facilitation makes many a more would be packagers more readily become packagers.10:20
onefangFeel free to write such tooling.  The Devuan maintainers are too busy doing their job to write such "newbie user" friendly tools.  We do have such tooling, it's a hard job, it's even harder writing tooling to make something that hard easy for "newbie users".10:22
Digiti know it's not as simple as just needs 1 magic button that says "make new package, and make it nice with all other packages", and poof, a number changes somewhere and fairies take care of the rest... but i just think more bridges could be built across the package manager gui between packegers and users, bluring the distinction, encouraging participation and contribution and learning.   that kinda thing.10:23
onefangSoooo, write those bridges.  The fairies are too busy to write it for you.  B-)10:24
Digityeah, most places, if they're to cater at all to the newbie, it's in coddling, n not so much aimed to helping them towards intermediacy and excellence.10:25
Digitonefang: yeah, i'm on it.  ....   same as i was on it a decade ago when i last brought it up.  n_n   ack.  ok... maybe i've learned enough that i cou@#~, ack, i've learned nothing.10:26
onefangWhich is what I'm trying to do in my big virtual world project.  Make it easy for newbie users to run their own, to learn how it all works, to write their own stuff to make it work better for them.  That's a really big project, a distro is even bigger.10:26
* Digit accepts a poor workman blames his tools, a poor student blames his sourcecode.10:27
onefang"Hey it's easy, just write magic!" says the poor user to the poor overworked developers.10:29
* onefang wanders off to write todays little bit of magic.10:29
Digityeah, just eeasily write the software that deals with the users who ask for that kind of thing, directing them to the documentation.10:30
Digitah, i think i could do that... i think i even did.  ... i wrote an irc bot that answered any question with an rtfg link containing the question.   problem solved.  ;D10:31
free_speechBack in my personal Windows-using times, I used to waste some of my time using Windows' On-Board - Tool "Paint" ... I personally didn't like the Paint-version shipped with Windows 7 and above, so I upported the Paint of Windows XP up to Windows 7 just by replacing the paint.exe File ... it worked as intended.10:34
free_speechI wondered if this worked vice-versa, so I backported Windows 7 Paint to XP the same way - it just worked.10:35
free_speechThis also worked with all the other tools of the Windows Userland's default10:38
free_speechDigit, are the IRC-bots debhelper and dpkg (used in the Debian Channels) your works? :-)10:51
Digitheh, nop.10:51
free_speechBut quite another question - what would I have to do to chat with whatever device (Raspberry Pi, PC, Laptop, ... whatever) using IRC?10:54
free_speechI think this is Bot-Stuff, isn't it?10:54
emdetehi, i am playing with a raspberry pi zero, i installed devuan_ascii_2.0.0_armel_raspi1.img.xz  (which works fine) but wonder if that's the best choice. would a armhf do as well? i am not that deep into the arm archs ;)13:38
buZzemdete: armhf doesnt work on raspi1 or zero13:46
buZzarmhf is for ARMv713:46
buZzraspi1 is ARMv5 iirc13:47
buZzoh ARMv6 , right13:47
Wonkathere were special softfloat distros for Pi1, iirc13:49
emdetebuZz: ok, thank you. i just wondered why rasbian provides hf only but maybe i'm wrong13:49
buZzemdete: because raspberry foundation is a bunch of idiots with closed source hardware13:50
emdetebuZz: what do you suggest ? i jsut need a cheap small thing to do wifi and hdmi...13:51
buZzfriendly-arm's nanopi line is nice13:52
buZzbut pizero is cheaper yeah, its subsidized by broadcom13:52
buZz(so they can get rid of their old cpus)13:52
free_speechwhat about the other <fruit>Pi's ? There's BananaPi for instance13:53
emdetefree_speech: banana zero looks nice: double performance, double price, double current ;)14:03
free_speechis there a "free and open source" SBC out there?14:07
free_speechI don't like this "open source" term ... but when it comes to hardware, the "free" in "free software" is even more problematic than related to software ... so ...14:09
free_speech"free hardware" ... I see problems coming around when using this ....14:10
onefang tries to be open hardware, but I've not checked their stuff for a while.14:11
free_speechalthough I could build "open hardware" using non-open stuff like Raspberry Pi inside ... "you don't like that my <whatever it is> is based on RPi? Just replace the RPi by another SBC" ... I'm attempted to compare this with De{bi,vu}an contrib repos on software ...14:13
Simeon2palemoon wants sqlite 3.29, beowulf has 3.27.2-3  building from 'sid' sqlite3_3.29.0-2.debian.tar.xz  etc failing here17:17
free_speechDoes sqlite3_3.29.0-2.debian.tar.xz have any build dependencies?17:59
free_speech@ Simeon218:00
GuilleSThello! I'm currently using voidlinux but wanted to install devuan on my desktop pc. Is it easy to change the init to runit (so that both my machines behave the same when it comes to services and stuff)?18:13
GuilleSTI also wanted to know if there are any south america mirrors18:14
golinuxGuilleST: openrc is available in the "expert" install option18:16
golinuxHere's the mirror list:
golinuxOops misread.  runit is available but not an option in the installer18:18
fsmithredI know people have switched to runit. No idea how easy or difficult it is. Search the forum and dng mailing list, and you'll find some discussions about it.18:22
GuilleSTI will lurk some more to see if I find anything, but I didn't see anything about runit in the documentation. Thanks anyways, I hope it's not too hard18:23
GuilleSTand thanks for the mirror list :)18:23
fsmithredgolinux, do you know if there's video footage of the hacking session at the conference where they made their own init scripts?18:24
fsmithredI missed that session.18:24
golinuxI have never heard of it18:28
jaromilthe second talk by skarnet you mean?18:28
jaromilwe have still some footage to be published btw, where the audio is a bit restored18:29
DocScrutinizer05hi jaromil :-)18:29
golinuxNo.  there was a hacking session on Sunday18:29
jaromilmmmm if it was streamed then maybe is in the stream18:29
jaromilhi DocScrutinizer0518:29
golinuxjaromil: They hacked after his Sunday talk.18:30
golinuxOr at least they intended to.  Not sure if it even happened.18:30
jaromilok, yes, there was sitting at the table with skarnet and I recall about s6 the outcome was that it needs a good deal of scripts to be adapted to devuan18:31
jaromili'm not aware of any hacking on other inits18:31
jaromilas you probably already know a good deal of those scripts is here
jaromilbut is not in a final form and noone besides danyspin has tested that18:32
golinuxYes,  I am aware of that project.  Just pointed someone to it yesterday.18:33
jaromilfor the record, i'm quite happy using supervisord in a number of projects... when headless, lovely to have the web interface18:34
jaromilit has improved a lot in beowulf18:34
Simeon2can some1 update libsqlite3-0 to 3.29 from 3.28 (in debian sid)?19:16
Simeon2it not building for me19:16
eyalrozI've gotten myself into a little packaging mess...22:16
eyalrozwith gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad (an ominous name)22:17
eyalrozand when I apt --fix-broken install , I get:22:17
eyalrozPreparing to unpack .../gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad_1%3a1.14.4-dmo7_amd64.deb ...22:17
eyalrozUnpacking gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad:amd64 (1:1.14.4-dmo7) over (1.16.1-1) ...22:17
eyalrozdpkg: error processing archive /var/cache/apt/archives/gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad_1%3a1.14.4-dmo7_amd64.deb (--unpack):22:17
eyalroz trying to overwrite '/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/gstreamer-1.0/', which is also in package gstreamer1.0-plugins-base:amd64 1.16.1-122:17
eyalrozHow can I fix this weird conflict?22:19
gnarfaceeyalroz: looks like you're trying to downgrade - you need to find a newer version of gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad:amd6422:23
gnarfaceof course, this does leave some open questions like, "how did my system get this way?"22:32
gnarfaceusually this is caused by mixing distros, distro versions, or repos22:32
gnarface(backports and deb-multimedia are common culprits)22:32
gnarfaceit might be sufficient to just get all the gstreamer packages from the same place22:32
gnarfacebut from where you're at now, if you decide that's not where you want to get some of them, you will probably have to manually uninstall all of them first22:33
gnarfaceeither approach should kill this blockage22:33
eyalrozgnarface: Well, that might not be the reason, but - I added the winehq staging repo for buster, and tried installing some of the packages there, but couldn't because of weird i386 dependencies22:45
eyalrozThen I removed that apt source22:45
eyalrozmaybe that was the cause22:45
eyalrozI apt-get dist-upgrade'd again22:45
eyalrozOh, I think I might have added deb-multimedia22:46
gnarfaceeyalroz: ok i perceive the possibility of multiple mistakes here cascading.  first of all, i'm guessing those weird i386 dependency issues were because you forgot to enable multiarch before switching to the winehq repos22:46
gnarfacesecondly, you should not be adding all of these repos at once, if you're gonna mix them, mix them one at a time22:47
eyalrozgnarface: I did enabme i386, and had it enabled for a while22:47
gnarface(as in, ONLY have the winehq repo enabled while installing/upgrading the winehq staging packages, then comment it out and "apt-get update" again with the other repos uncommented)22:47
eyalrozbut - let's start with: How can I remove all gstreamer packages? (If that makes sense at all and won't bring the house crumbling down)22:47
gnarfacewell you can try to just "apt-get --purge remove [package 1] [package 2] ... [package N]"22:48
gnarfacejust put all the gstreamer packages on the same line like that22:48
gnarfacebut make sure to carefully read the WILL BE REMOVED section22:49
gnarfaceif anything else you need will be removed, don't do it.22:49
eyalrozgnarface: "all the gstreamer" - get those from a dpkg query?22:49
gnarfaceyea: dpkg -l |grep gstreamer22:49
eyalrozgnarface: I think I'll take another approach. Will first remove the deb-multimedia and see what that does.22:50
gnarfacewell you might have to remove all the packages from there22:50
eyalrozgnarface: I can live with that.22:50
gnarfacebecause they're probably all new enough to be in direct conflict with stock devuan parts22:50
gnarfacealternately you could try to just get ALL the gstreamer packages from deb-multimedia at once, that might fix this too22:51
eyalrozgnarface: Ok, that did the trick.22:51
gnarfacebut you'll still be in the same confused mess if you forget again later22:51
eyalrozgnarface: confused mess is my natural state :-P22:51
eyalrozAnyway, now my agdu works fine (apt-get dist-upgrade ; I have an alias for it)22:52
eyalrozI was going to try using winehq repos, to try and get Starcraft 2 to play,22:53
eyalrozfollowing the instructions here:
gnarfacehmm, i should test that... it was just working a couple days ago, but i followed my own instructions...22:53
gnarfaceoh you have amdgpu?  my setup might only be relevant to nvidia22:53
eyalrozno, I don't22:54
gnarfaceagdu wasn't a typo of amdgpu?22:54
eyalrozalias agu='apt-get update; apt-get -o Acquire::Check-Valid-Until=false -y upgrade'22:55
eyalrozalias agdu='apt-get update; apt-get -o Acquire::Check-Valid-Until=false dist-upgrade'22:55
gnarfaceah i see22:55

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