freenode/#devuan/ Saturday, 2019-10-12

tbaOk, I'll check that one.00:01
tbaWhat are bannedpackages? I don't believe exim is listed there.00:02
golinuxIt's not00:40
systemdlete3tried to get help at #mate, but no reply there.  I get tooltip from the calendar app in mate when I rotate the screen (which is done with a custom button linked to a script).  It doesn't go away even if I hover the pointer over tooltip or the calendar icon.08:35
systemdlete3any ideas why this happens?08:35
systemdlete3this is a T101A ASUS 2-in-one08:35
systemdlete3I keep losing this connection, so beware08:36
systemdlete3devuan ascii running mate desktop08:37
systemdlete3I didn't observe this with cinnamon08:37
systemdlete3I switched to mate because the cinnamon power applet didn't update the power level08:38
systemdlete2ugh.  Now the tooltip dismisses when I hover over it -- wtf08:40
systemdlete2but why does the tooltip appear at all, since I don't go near it?08:41
systemdlete2anyone had issues with aplay erroring with buffer underrun?11:04
systemdlete2I found that I had to blacklist some modules to get aplay to do anything on ascii running on my ASUS transformer T101A11:05
TwistedFatebtw does anyone here use jack audio server?11:07
TwistedFatei wanna route my sound to/from 2 soundcards11:07
TwistedFategot 1 onboard and 1 from my gpu11:08
debdogbut then, IIRC, no RT possible anymore11:15
flimpyheh idk if rm -rf /etc/systemd was a good idea11:50
flimpybut i wanted to see what happens11:50
systemdletegot my sound problem fixed.12:10
systemdletehas anyone tested/used rescue mode on the install disk?   I had a problem getting it to work.12:10
Shentinoflimpy that's actually an interesting experiment considering devuan's mission12:12
flimpymhm ... /etc/init.d/lightdm restart isn't showing a login screen on virtual console 7, as it should12:14
flimpyno errors in Xorg.0.log or messages though12:14
* flimpy scratches head12:14
flimpyi can startx as root, so it looks like just lightdm has problems.. apt reinstalling it didn't fix.12:49
flimpyposisbly some stuff with the user sessions and daemons12:49
flimpyShentino: which display manager would you suggest as an alternative to lightdm?12:50
flimpysimpler is better12:50
debdog<flimpy> [...]on virtual console 7, as it should  --  it's using the console it got started from theses days. usually tty112:56
flimpyyes startx as root starts in the console i started it in, which is cool12:56
flimpybut lightdm should be showing up in 712:56
flimpythat's where it always restarts in12:57
flimpytry /etc/init.d/lightdm restart12:57
* debdog boots the ole laptot whiich has lightdm installed....12:58
flimpyi'll check out xdm, wdm and ldxm i guess12:59
flimpyif there's a better place for non-support chat, please open it to unregistered users13:00
DonkeyHotei#debianfork is open13:01
flimpyxdm runs fine but looks like i'd need to customize it for my windowmanager13:05
debdogok, lightdm actually is running on tty here. did not know that, I was certain it'd run on tty1, too13:06
flimpymhm if i ps aux |grep xorg i see xorg invoked with vt07 and -novtswitch13:07
flimpybut i'm not getting any xinitrc love or fluxbox after logging in13:07
flimpyi'm guessing this is a user perms problem13:08
flimpyexport DISPLAY=":0" && xfwm4 gets me xfce4 desktop13:11 IPv6 seems not to answer.13:40
mcr1dooku-[~](2.4.1) mcr 10003 %host packages.devuan.org13:40 has address has IPv6 address 2001:41d0:8:2c55::a213:40
mcr1these are the IPs that I get.  I would preferrably be on the ripe-nat64 network, but 2001:41d0:8:2c55::a2 does not seem to answer.13:41
mcr1I wonder who I can tell this too...13:41
flimpyi get as well mcr114:28
mcr1flimpy, the IPv4 works fine. The IPv6 is broken.14:53
mcr1it just hangs.14:53
flimpythanks for explaining14:53
flimpyi disable ipv6 cause it's a new thing and i'm old14:53
mcr1maybe you should just stop using the Internet if you are too old to figure out IPv6.14:54
mcr1[cause, I'll bet I'm older than you]14:54
flimpyi don't need to enable it on my local network14:54
mcr1I only run it on my local network.14:54
mcr1Or, I only run IPv6 on my local network :-)14:54
flimpyyou must have a lot of devices14:55
mcr1I just don't like living in the past, and I like publically accessible addresses.15:19
mcr1NAT44 is for windows95 machines.15:19
mcr1real computers can live on the Internet just fine.15:19
EvilhamIPv6 is what, 27 by noe?15:40
EvilhamIPv6 only networks are perfectly viable these days15:41 is a very weird thing and nobody has ever explained its ipv6 oddity, my guess is that its a different host and nobody has looked into it enough15:42
EvilhamAlso because people shpuld be using instead15:43
systemdlete2sound works in straight alsa, such as aplay.   However, I cannot get firefox-esr to do sound.15:45
systemdlete2well, heck.  Opera gets sound fine...15:58
systemdlete2So... it's firefox-specific.15:59
golinuxFF now has a hard dependency on pulseaudio16:02
golinuxdepending on which version you have,  The ESR on jessie doesn't need it but PA is completely entwined in beowulf.16:03
systemdlete2I am aware of the problem; it has been going on for years.  I mean, like 20 years.16:15
systemdlete2In the past, though, apulse would usually work around it.16:15
systemdlete2So in Beowulf, it will be f'd beyond hope?16:16
golinuxapulse is still there16:16
golinuxbut Xfce now also depends on PA16:16
systemdlete2does it work in beowulf for firefox?16:16
systemdlete2chromium has sound here16:17
golinuxI'm still on jessie except for testing16:17
golinuxHaven't done much sound on beowulf.  In fact sound is broken on my version of virtualbox16:18
systemdlete2cheese and crackers!  How far down the garden path will they go with all this nonsense from u-know-hoo?16:18
golinuxI really need to downgrade to a version that works16:18
systemdlete2yes.  seems that way16:18
golinuxWe need more elves in the workshop to tear it out.16:18
systemdlete2I said years ago, when this calamity struck, that the open source world should fork THEIR work and allow his eminence and his acolytes to modify a branch, but not the trunk work16:20
golinuxCurrently we have our hands full with basic system function so audio is not high on the list16:20
systemdlete2np.  I have a workaround:   Chromium or opera16:20
r3bootactually, in our hackerspace, we finally got synced audio to work across multiple rooms, and that's all thanks to PA, which just worked(tm), while both rtp and jack based setups had all kinds of sync and latency issues16:21
golinuxI hear it does have it's purposes but it should be an option not mandatory.16:22
systemdlete2r3boot:  that's wonderful.  I've used PA in the past to run sound from a machine in a hot bedroom to my living room.  PA has its uses.  But it should not be enforced, it shouldn't be brazed on to the system.16:22
golinuxAnd this is not the place to discuss that  ;)16:22
* systemdlete2 rolls eyes16:22
systemdlete2well, I'm happy I have sound working.  Good night!16:23
helleI am having an interestng issue with testing, there is a breakage, because in the repos libmount1:amd64 and libmount1:i386 do not have the same version16:37
helleyeah, this is even the case in unstable it seems16:45
helleand this breaks upgrades HARD as those two need to be in sync for any system using multiarch16:45
Lippsi have multiarch running here and wonder what to do or not do16:47
Lippseverything is working 4 me16:47
helleI mean apt warns the hell out of you before doing anything like this16:48
helleas libmount1 i386 and amd64 explicitly have breaks: any version not identical to it on the other arch16:48
helleI mean I guess I can build it from source, but this just really needs to be rapidly pushed to repo as it is a total pain16:49
helleI wonder if it is a build system being slow or there being a repo sync issue16:51
helleis there a way to see the queue ?16:54
helleBut I am stuck with a very in between state system right now due to this16:56
r3boothelle: you can roll-back your upgrade until it is fixed ofc16:57
r3boot(which is a manual action btw, but it's possible to get a working system back if you have the previous packages)16:58
TwoTallhtop gives Pulseaudio a NICE level of -1117:12
helleDo I need to write a program that makes sure all repository uploads are staged in such a way that they don't leave version desyncs for more then a few minutes or what.... there are currently several in testing17:14
helleaaah, the other one I found so far is a weirder one, blame Debian in part for that one17:19
Lippshmm no every pic upload is getting interrupted17:22
hellebut yeah, there is an actual issue around util-linux source and elogind at the very least where the i386 and amd64 versions need to be version synced tightly, but currently aren't17:23
* helle is going to see if she can write a little script to at least detect all of these17:26
Lippswhat's an anon image hoster not-imgur17:31
Shentinoflimpy: either xdm or slim18:00
Lippsretard me finally got vlc to adopt Adwaita-Dark theme.  one annoyance less in my life19:56
Lippsother people probably solve 'problems' with their furniture arrangement20:09
Lippsarmin you know any folks who are knowledgable about glx and compositing?21:12
CrystalMathhello, devuan people! i have a question21:22
CrystalMathis it okay to apply and maintain a package into devuan, that is not in debian, and has nothing to do with systemd?21:24
CrystalMathi'm saying this because i'm wondering if right now, devuan is a true fork, or still just a "patch" to debian to remove systemd?21:25
CrystalMathpersonally, i would love to maintain debian packages... but i don't like the debian project21:25
CrystalMathi don't want to work with the debian project as i consider them hostile21:25
gnarfaceCrystalMath: i don't think it has gotten to the point where they're giving up on the idea of patching debian... yet.  that has been discussed as a distinct possibility however, but for now I think you would want to try to get your package into Debian if possible21:48
CrystalMathgnarface: hmm... i will then maintain my own repository21:48
gnarfacepeople have been doing that21:48
CrystalMathgnarface: i refuse to be affiliated with debian21:48
CrystalMathbut i don't want to give up on the technical benefits of debian21:48
CrystalMathi just hate the debian community21:48
gnarfaceand i think there's also a proposed-updates repo for unofficial devuan stuff not in debian yet....21:48
CrystalMathand this is why:
gnarfacethis might be a better question for the mailing list, or #devuan-dev21:49
CrystalMathhmm, idk, devuan-dev is "strictly technical stuff"21:49
CrystalMathmy reason for not joining debian is community-related21:50
CrystalMathi have 2 packages i wanted to add to debian21:50
CrystalMathbut i opted not to21:50
gnarfacewhat are they?21:50
CrystalMathzyn-fusion, a version of zynaddsubfx with the new interface that was formerly proprietary21:51
CrystalMath(and is now GPL free software)21:51
CrystalMathsoon i may also add surge... but that's not the other thing i was going to add, unfortunately i forgot, let me find it21:52
CrystalMathi wanted to add premake5 too21:53
CrystalMath(to sid)21:53
CrystalMathand there's more but i forgot21:53
gnarfacewell, i have no official say one way or another21:54
CrystalMaththe thing is, because of how debian behaved to Norbert Preining, i don't think they deserve my help21:54
gnarfacei have my own personal issues with a number of Debian staff that are much more childish than these concerns21:55
gnarfacebut i'm not a member of Devuan staff either21:55
gnarfaceso i can't really answer your question officially21:55
CrystalMaththe debian anti-harassment team just attacks people without providing a reason... as a bystander i am shocked that anyone is being attacked without a publicly discussed reason behind it21:55
gnarfaceone way or another, you want to talk to one of the people on this list:
CrystalMathyeah i should join the mailing list21:55
gnarfacei recommend the mailing list21:55
CrystalMathand leave the debian one21:55
gnarfacesome of them are in here, and #devuan-arm and #devuan-dev, but the mailing list will be more certain to get you a response probably21:56
gnarfacei don't think you're the only person thinking along these lines but i do think for now they're putting you all in a holding pattern21:56
gnarfacethere's some proposed-additions repo and several private repos and everyone is just waiting to see if Debian escalates after the next release or de-escalates21:57
gnarfacetime will tell21:57
gnarfacebut i have heard there are also Devuan sympathizers within their ranks21:57
CrystalMathyes... but not all anti-systemd people are also anti-censorship21:58
CrystalMatha good example is Ian Jackson21:59
CrystalMathwho famously resigned from debian, over their adoption of systemd; but repeatedly and violently kicked people out for things they said with no explanation; and now signed a statement against Richard Stallman21:59
Pr0metheusbut most big companies are now inside linux so I don't think there is much significant you can do22:01
CrystalMath"inside linux" is not what i'm talking about22:01
CrystalMathdebian and ubuntu were never mutually exclusive22:02
CrystalMathand ubuntu has always been a for-profit thing, while debian was run by volunteers22:02
CrystalMatheither way, my ability to volunteer is not threatened by big companies22:02
Pr0metheusbut starting from the kernel and going upwards you can see that everything is going under control22:03
CrystalMathnor would debian be harmed in any way, by doing work for free and NOT banning people over nonsense22:03
CrystalMathnote that i personally was never banned from debian or any IRC channel; i'm acting out of pure principle and zero self-interest22:03
CrystalMathPr0metheus: we do not have to submit to that control22:04
CrystalMathwe're not paid to22:04
CrystalMathi have, in total, earned a total of $0.00 from programming, after even rejecting offers and donations, and i intend to keep it that way22:05
CrystalMaththe companies cannot control what i do22:05
Pr0metheusyeap but we stand no chance, it's like when an executive of Xiaomi was asked how he is gonna challenge the other big companies and he said I can have two times more programmers:P22:05
CrystalMaththis is free software, which by itself cannot be an asset22:06
CrystalMathPr0metheus: either way, lots of people make great code, even without a code of conduct; or even with a code of conduct that is not strict, and people are not kicked out randomly22:08
Pr0metheusyes I agree with you, the whole situation though, in my opinion, is inevitable22:08
CrystalMathPr0metheus: what is inevitable?22:09
Pr0metheusthe control over what can others say or should do22:09
CrystalMathi definitely disagree, as we have enough people to make this work22:10
Pr0metheusI hope you are right22:10
CrystalMathi'm not trying to restrict what people companies want or don't want to do business with22:12
CrystalMathi'm trying to segregate companies and volunteers, so that volunteers have their own freedom22:12
CrystalMathvolunteers probably won't have any edge over the companies, but will still be able to work on their own stuff, as they did now22:13
DonkeyHoteivolunteers are still people, and people still beat each other over the head with frying pans22:13
CrystalMathif you look at it, it's being 1% vs. 99% proprietary software (as it was in the 2000s) and being 1% vs. 50% "open source" companies vs 49% proprietary software22:13
CrystalMathactually a better position than before22:14
CrystalMaththey can fork from us, but we can also fork from them22:14
CrystalMathit could even be a mutual benefit22:14
CrystalMathbut of course, they will have to live with forking code written by people who sometimes say nasty things22:14
CrystalMathor waste time rewriting it22:14
CrystalMaththey don't have to live with their own employees saying nasty things22:15
CrystalMathDonkeyHotei: regarding that, i have faith that meritocracy brings about better software than control ever could22:17
DonkeyHoteimeritocracy is a myth22:19
CrystalMathi disagree22:19
CrystalMathultimately, something always wins out, you can call it "privilege", but you can't call it unfair22:21
CrystalMathi believe that if people use that privilege to the benefit of many, then that's a really nice thing to do22:21
CrystalMathbut i do not wish to eliminate it22:21
CrystalMathjust as evolution did not create humans by protecting the weak22:21
DonkeyHoteisocial darwinism is not helpful22:22
CrystalMathit's quite helpful, although hard to achieve, really22:22
gnarfacenobody disagrees with you, CrystalMath.  take it to #debianfork though, this is starting to turn into a rant22:22
CrystalMathright, we went off topic22:22
golinuxCan you all please take this to #debianfork?  OT for this channel22:22
CrystalMathdefinitely, yes22:23
gnarfaceCrystalMath: just put your packages together and ready them for show&tell.  that's what the devuan developers will tell you to do first.22:23
golinuxI was actually doing work for devuan so wasn't babysitting here.22:23
golinuxYes CrystalMath  . . . put packages in git and see what users think of them22:24
FleaFartHello World!22:24
gnarfacehello FleaFart22:25
FleaFartI am TooTall on a different laptop22:25
golinuxI can't bring myself to call you that.22:26
FleaFartStill haven't issues with sudo ...22:26
FleaFartmost just say Flea22:26
FleaFartMost of the /nicks are already takin22:26
gnarfacesudo is not very complicated, but the man page is.  i recommend reading it twice.22:27
gnarfacethe second half doesn't make sense without the first half, but the first half only makes sense on the second read through22:27
golinuxI can't help you with sudo.  Dumped that habit more than a decade ago22:27
FleaFartSo why doesn't sudo accept my sysadmin root password; can I adapt this so that it works with $ sudo get-install htop22:27
golinuxBecause it needs your user PW22:28
gnarfacethe only point of sudo is so that non-root users don't have to remember the root password22:28
FleaFartoh, and I have to give my user chown to root22:28
gnarfaceif you can remember your own root password and you don't have other users, it is arguable that you don't need sudo22:28
gnarfacemaking sudo require the root password is... silly22:29
gnarfacelike bordering on pointless22:29
FleaFartgot it22:29
golinuxNo just normal user perms22:29
gnarfacei'm not saying it won't work, but that might be why it has gone untested :)22:29
FleaFartQ: when in user $ how do I run one line of command in root mode?22:30
FleaFartusing su -22:30
gnarfaceyou can do that with su22:30
gnarfaceno, you can do it with su if you invoke it a different way22:30
gnarfacecheck the su man page but i think you want -c22:30
FleaFartold habits die hard22:31
gnarfaceindeed, i know22:31
Pr0metheuscan anyone suggest a profiler that works:) for shared libraries23:38

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