freenode/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2019-10-15

agrisHow do I upgrade from ASCII to Beowulf?08:58
gnarfacepretty much just change all the instances of "ascii" to "beowulf" in your sources.list, then run "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade"08:59
gnarfacemake sure you're up-to-date in ascii first08:59
gnarfaceand i recommend a full backup09:00
gnarfacebecause beowulf isn't done yet and i don't know what will happen to you lol09:00
gnarfaceare you sure you really want to run beowulf?  you can get a updated kernel from ascii-backports instead, and more safely09:00
agrisyes, it's a container so kernel changes are irrelevant09:03
gnarfacewell have fun09:04
agrisLXC uses the hypervisor's kernel09:04
agrisI need a somewhat recent version of openrc09:04
agrisgnarface, speaking of openrc, I never got around to writing the mailing list09:05
agrisI really should09:05
agrisI would like to see if Devuan would be OK moving into using OpenRC in the main distro with OpenRC' sysv compatibility, among other options09:06
agrisIs Devuan really set on SysV or is it just anti-systemd?09:06
gnarfacewell, it's also anti-disruption09:06
gnarfacechanging default inits is a disruptive change09:07
gnarfacebut adding support for additional inits is not09:07
gnarfaceand they already did add openrc as an option after all09:07
agrisok well in that case that's good cause
gnarface... and i thought it already is the sysv compatibility setup, isn't it?09:08
gnarfacemost people have been trying to undo that i thought...09:08
agrisno gnarface, the current OpenRC support is extremely half-assed09:08
agrisgnarface, no, we have not been undoing sysv support, a lot of the people running openrc in Devuan have been having to redo the way the sysinit runlevel does things with openrc09:09
agrisbecause currently it's some kind of hodgepodge mixture of both sysv and openrc that takes all the cons of both sides with none of the pros and breaks a lot09:09
agrisOpenRC reads sysv scripts just fine, but when the system is KERNEL -> sysV -> openrc -> mixture is causes weird issues09:11
agrisit needs to be KERNEL -> openrc -> mixture09:11
agrisif openrc is in fact installed09:11
agriscorrect me if i'm wrong but I can't see the reasoning for having the first runlevel be sysv and then passing off to openrc09:11
gnarfacei'm sure debian had a excuse for setting it up that way09:13
agristhat's the problem09:14
gnarfaceit had to do with work that needed to be done on openrc, if i recall09:14
agrisDebian is being stupid right now and doesn't show signs of recovering09:14
agrisHell, I've been writing various init scripts for packages and stuff for OpenRC on Devuan in-house anyways09:14
agrisand I'm sure other people here have bits and peicies they'd share09:15
agrisDebian isn't going to do it. The only thing they are going to do is remove all other options besides systemd09:15
agrisI'd do it but I don't want to step on anyone's toes09:16
gnarfacebut last i heard, work was going forward on it09:16
agrisbecause I need this anyways for MY servers and clusters so it's not like I'm just doing this for no reason or motivation09:16
gnarfacewith dewvuan's help09:16
agriswhere? not on the mailinglist09:17
jaromilI am not 100% sure I have seen the same issue, or if my information is actual. but then I also think there is room for improvement on the way openrc is packaged09:18
agrisgnarface, you wouldn't happen to know where the work was going on was would you?09:25
jaromilagris: did you get my messages?09:26
jaromilmy internet has disconnected. IRC is so frustrating on shaky connections...09:27
gnarfaceagris: i don't remember, sorry09:27
agrisjaromil, no. I'm also available on XMPP which handles flaky connections very well09:27
jaromilok let me repost09:27
jaromilI am not 100% sure I have seen the same issue, or if my information is actual. but then I also think there is room for improvement on the way openrc is packaged09:27
jaromilonce upon a time I was from the "fork openrc" party because the debian packaging is wrong09:27
jaromilthere is also an issue with the expert install: choosing openrc doesn't removes sysv-rc, yet openrc doesn't depends from it09:27
jaromilagris: if you can provide accurate insights and/or perhaps a path to fixes we can consider, you'd be very welcome09:28
jaromilI for one am a beowulf + openrc user and not completely satisfied (and I'm not a perfectionist)09:28
jaromilif you want to fork openrc you'll have my support. here some directions09:28
jaromilcomunications: #devuan-dev here and mailinglist
jaromilget down to business: <- make an account and upload your package09:28
jaromilwhen forking, remember we need to keep the git history from alioth09:29
agrisOpenRC doesn't need forking. upstream is not distro-specific or even linux specific09:29
agrisor do you mean forking from Debian's package09:29
jaromilupstream not, but debian did weird things09:29
jaromili mean debian's package09:29
agrisyour absolutely right about that. I'm talking to you from a Gentoo system right now and the way Debian handles openrc is wack09:29
jaromilwe have a good relationship with upstream and in the past agreed to disagree with debian packaging09:29
jaromilok then i ACK it hasn't improved09:30
jaromilI was involved 2 years ago09:30
jaromilreally time to do something09:30
jaromilI remember having a weird short and immediately incendiary exchange with the openrc maintainer in debian at that time09:30
agrisjaromil, do you remember the debian maintainer's reasoning for the way sysinit runlevel works?09:31
agrisor logging09:31
agrisor network09:32
jaromillong toes or so, maybe many people complained. rly time to do something, keeping close to upstream's approach should be fine. From what I remember the main problem is that while upstream engineers it so that it can co-exist with other init systems, debian makes it conflict with sysv scripts09:32
jaromilin devuan then we had some lengthy considerations on how it may be dangerous to fork openrc, low priority (wasn't yet in experimental install) and perhaps needing scripts to be maintained out of sysvinit09:33
tarzeau which of those parts are wack?09:35
tarzeau(just being curious)09:35
agris>From what I remember the main problem is that while upstream engineers it so that it can co-exist with other init systems, debian makes it conflict with sysv scripts09:36
tarzeauah the debian/control file with conflicts then09:36
agrisI'm sure there's more to it than that. break something the worked before09:36
tarzeauretarded, indeed09:36
agrisI mean I would not put it past Debian, with the systemd push09:37
agrisbut still09:37
tarzeausystemd was the biggest mistake ever. they should've added it, but not made it be default09:37
agriswe all know that tarzeau09:39
tarzeauso main problem is Conflicts: file-rc, sysv-rc from
tarzeaubut it was also in there with that very old version 0.23-109:41
tarzeaueven with
tarzeau 17 jan 2014 thomas goirand added a conflict with file-rc (not sure if he also added the other sysv-rc but maybe), let's see
jaromilhere some insights from angband
jaromilthat's from 2016 in a thread is half deleted from our archives do to a bug09:45
jaromilmy plans of forking openrc back then were bounced. time wasn't ripe09:46
jaromilhere an analysis shared by rick moen on running openrc on devuan/debian jessie (first fork)
jaromilI dont find anything else useful (saving you some drama mails) will consult katolaz because he had an extensive go at openrc integration in ascii, I believe he is the one who did it at the end09:49
jaromilthanks for your pointers tarzeau09:50
agrisyeah thanks09:50
agrisI'm going to take deeper look at all of this tomorrow as it's getting really late here09:52
agrisbut thank you guys a lot for all the info09:52
agrisbtw if anyone is interested here Is a openrc-run script i've been working on for mumble-server. It's not finished yet but it was urgently needed because mumble-server w/ openrc is completely broken09:56
jaromilcheers, rest well and lets see what we can do next09:56
agrishere's an example of the kinds of things you can do with openrc10:01
agrisoh my bad wrong file10:01
masonhrm hrm
HestbenHi guys!20:24
HestbenI run Ascii on my server, but need php7.220:24
HestbenAny recommendations on the easiest way to get php7.2. Not very keen on building from source, or upgrading to beowulf just yet20:25
specing> need php20:26
* specing throws Hestben through the airlock20:27
* Hestben whispering in the vast nothingness of space :)20:27
HestbenI'm just one of those lazy persons running Nextcloud20:28
onefangIn space, no one can hear you whisper.  B-)20:47
james1138In space, no one can hear you fart either.20:59
MinceRIn space, no one can hear one hand clapping.21:00
MinceRIn space, no one can hear a mime fall.21:00
furrywolf  in space, there's a nigerian astronaut needing you to transfer large sums of money.21:03
debdogthat's priceless21:07
onefang may be useful, they mention Debian oldstable (currently Stretch, which ASCII is based on), there's a link for that, but then it got too much of a rabbit hole for me, when I just wanted to give you a quick answer Hestben.21:08
Hestbenonefang: thank you, I will look into it.21:22
HestbenIt would be nice if Beowulf would become stable, and I could go that route instead :)21:23
onefangWe are working on it.21:23

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