freenode/#devuan/ Thursday, 2019-11-07

tuxd3vIf anyone wants a arm64 devuan base rootfs, with minimal tools:01:15
asbestoyo :)12:16
* GyrosGeier wonders where to get a sticker for his laptop12:20
ukinethat is how i made a lot of mine.12:20
GyrosGeierI just need one though12:20
ukineincluding eff but when i can't trust someone i lie my ass off.12:21
* ukine hugs. i'm agreeable when not stepped to...12:22
* ukine dances internally12:25
* ukine eyes you all right back.12:27
ukineAT ALL.12:28
jordilaI'm having trouble when Ascii ->> Beowulf, ..with a package being 'stucked' after completing the whole process. ( even tried 'aptitude safe-upgrade') ... No joy for now. Stucked/Offending so to speak is cgroupsfs-mount. Is it such a critical package ? Can i (for now) live without it (thus removing) in order to finish the upgrade process ?19:05
debdogjordila: what does "aptitude why cgroupsfs-mount" return?19:08
debdogit's not installed on my system which runs fine19:12
debdognot quite sure what these control groups actually are19:12
golinux0 results for "cgroupsfs-mount" in any (in 17.418597ms)19:22
golinuxLooks like a 3rd party pkg.19:23
debdoghmm, I have it in the list for available packages, too. and the only third party repo I am using is palemoon19:24
jordilahey, thxs for the feedback ... root@kali:/# aptitude why cgroupsfs-mount -->>19:24
jordilaE: No package named "cgroupsfs-mount" exists.19:24
Jjp137did you mean cgroupfs-mount instead (not "groups")19:25
* jordila ummh... i played around, not anymore, witch lxc the past. Maybe it is where it comes from ?19:26
debdogoops, my bad. *aptitude why cgroupfs-mount19:26
jordilasequence of the error, goes like this ... :19:26
golinuxIndeed.  cgroupfs-mount is in the repos19:27
* jordila may i use my one pad... in order not to flood the IRC channel ? , you can trust it... even if SSL cert is not so up to date... 19:28
jordilaJjp137 , no. It's   cgroupfs-mount .19:32
jordilaMy point, is when (after Asccii --> Beowulf ) rebooting, without such a package, would everything keep going fine ? yay? , i'm gonna try to get rid of cgroupfs-mount ...19:36
* jordila feels like its fresh Bewulf is in a unstable status ?19:42
debdogjordila: aptitude why cgroupfs-mount  (without said s)19:43
jordiladebdog see it ^^  ,updated with the aptitude why info19:45
jordilait is, indeed, linked to lxc.19:46
* jordila gonna remove lxc ^^19:47
jordilano way... even removing the related lxc package, cgroupfs-mount keeps being alive, no way to get rid of ?19:52
debdogI think your problem is: [....] Unmounting cgroupfs hierarchyumount: /sys/fs/cgroup/elogind: target is busy.19:53
debdogline 2019:53
masonelogind is only necessary with some desktop software - maybe that can go. I nuke it from all my installs here.19:54
* jordila ah... in fact, i'm having such a weird random problem, like slim not being able to authenticate my username/passwd... linked to elogind issue ?19:54
jordilamason, would switching to... say iw3m desktop packages circumvent the issue ?19:55
masonjordila: It's certainly possible. I'm using plain old xdm here, and I run openbox out of .xsession, so I end up not invoking any of that vast, byzantine, fragile infrastructure.19:55
masonjordila: I'd suspect slim is more likely to require elogind than the window manager, but it'd probably be a step in the right direction.19:55
jordilaor swith slim -> lightwm ?19:56
masonjordila: Hm, when I say "apt install slim" it does not try to pull in elogind, so if you'd be happy with i3, then that may well help, yeah.19:56
jordilamason, would awesomewm (iw3m cousin ? ) do the trick too ?19:56
* jordila that's my guess.. uh19:57
masonNot related codebases, but yeah, I think anything that's not one of the heavyweight desktop environments would likely free you from elogind.19:57
masonAlso, your login errors could conceivably be logged to ~/.xsession-errors, so maybe you can just debug what you've got, too.19:58
* jordila right now, his Xfce (original) devuan desktop is completeley screwed... BTW19:58
masonHm, I do see the xfce metapackage pulling in elogind. But also verify that you can log in on the console, etc. before assuming it's a display manager issue.19:59
masonor even an elogind issue19:59
debdogor see which process accesses /sys/fs/cgroup20:00
debdogwith "lsof cgroup" or similar20:00
debdogstop that process and try updating the package again20:00
jordilamason: yes, i do have access to console prompt20:00
jordiladebdog 'lsof cgroup' fails to give info.. nothing running relates to (see updated 'log' at the the pad : )20:02
debdogwell, i am out20:03
* jordila ok, let's give iw3m a chance ?20:10
debdogor shut down the DE entirely, incl. display manager and try again20:10
jordilaah, debdog you mean like 'killing' the xfce4 processes... and/or gdm ?20:12
debdogeverything, yes20:12
debdoglogout then switch to console and run /etc/rc2/slim stop20:13
debdogor gdm stop20:14
debdogwhatever display manager you're using right now20:14
debdoghaha, my bad again, now he's gone20:26
debdogftr: lsof | grep cgroup20:26
masonOh, didn't notice the lack of a pipe. He ran it with no pipe, didn't he...? Ah, well.20:27
golinuxI think you may need consolekit for slim20:32
masonOh, I didn't think to look for that. When the current apt operation is concluded I'll look.20:34
systemdlete2Getting tons of dbus errors in my new Ascii VM20:36
systemdlete2and a lot of delays and snags with cut and paste -- this problem with the clipboard exists in both mate and lxde desktops.20:39
golinuxForm this week's meet notes: - beowulf gets both slim and lightdm.
systemdlete2I think I am updated20:39
* systemdlete2 double-checks20:39
golinuxThis is the problem.  LeePen has a proposed fix but the build host still isn't functional to build packages that are waiting in the queue20:40
systemdlete2so I have the latest and greatest of everything from repo20:40
golinuxmason: ^^^ jordila20:41
golinuxelogind is what allows removal of libsystemd020:42
masongolinux: libelogind0 does, elogind is distinct20:44
masonYou can have the library but not the daemon installed.20:44
fsmithredsystemdlete2, is eudev installed?20:44
golinuxOn my beowulf I have slim and elogind (and no linsystemd0)20:45
fsmithredoh, lxde20:46
systemdlete2AND mate also, fsmithred!20:46
golinuxmason: Senior moment20:46
systemdlete2in fact, I was having these problems even before I ever even installed lxde20:46
systemdlete2(just fyi)20:46
masongolinux: I haven't poked at this to be 100% confident, but it seems like slim requires one of elogind or consolekit. If I purge slim, I can then remove elogind without it insisting on installing consolekit.20:47
systemdlete2yeah, I installed lxde because somehow I messed up my mate desktop, trying to narrow down the source of the problems I am having20:47
fsmithredok, my problem with lxde is that I couldn't figure out what polkit backends it needed20:47
systemdlete2so those are polkit rejection notices I am seeing from dbus?20:47
fsmithrednot sure what it's rejecting20:47
golinuxI just booted to check the depends20:48
fsmithredit's using consolekit, which is normal for mate20:49
systemdlete2the logs I posted are lxde (I believe)20:49
systemdlete2history:  Yesterday, I installed lxde and tried it.  Worked marginally better than mate, tbh.20:50
fsmithredand I see lightdm-gtk-greeter and lxsession-logout mentioned20:50
systemdlete2the log is from last night's logwatch20:50
golinuxmason: consolekit | libpam-elogind | logind20:50
systemdlete2fsmithred:  Are you saying I have a botched install/configuration?20:50
systemdlete2(I'd believe it)20:50
fsmithrednot necessarily botched, but um...20:51
fsmithrednot ideal20:51
systemdlete2as far as I know, I removed mate after installing lxde20:51
masongolinux: makes sense20:51
systemdlete2so, lightdm and lxde don't play well together?20:52
systemdlete2but I hate slim!20:52
systemdlete2not that it matters anyway -- this VM is configured to bypass login20:52
systemdlete2(which, duh, might be an issue right there...)20:52
fsmithrednot sure how to get lxde to play nice20:53
masonsystemdlete2: There's xdm as well, and that'll play well with anything and everything.20:53
systemdlete2mason, fsmithred:  thanks.20:53
fsmithredyou might try lxdm with lxde20:53
fsmithredand you might need to switch from consolekit to elogind, but that's just a guess20:53
systemdlete2Is there *ANY* desktop that plays well on devuan, after having systemdshit surgically removed?20:53
masonsystemdlete2: If you decide to go the bloody-knuckle route, look at ck-launch-session for launching your desktop environment session.20:53
fsmithredI'm using lxdm with xfce in refracta/ascii20:53
fsmithredand elogind20:54
masonsystemdlete2: You just need to be creative.20:54
golinuxsystemdlete: There is a reason that lxde is no longer being offered during installation and you have found it.20:54
systemdlete2oh, just goodie20:54
fsmithredthe closest I come to using lxde is openbox with lxpanel20:55
golinuxThe backends defied living in harmony.20:55
systemdlete2and mate?  What is its issue, if anyone actually knows?  I mean, other than the fact it is a resurrection of the great god gnome 2 itself20:55
fsmithredthere may be a way to do it. Someone posted on forum about it in the last couple months.20:55
systemdlete2I am NOT opposed to a complete re-install anyway, things being so messed up on this VM20:56
systemdlete2So, ideally, how would I install from scratch to get a workable, decent, loving, respectable and reliable desktop?20:56
systemdlete2Whatever the magic is, I'll do it, OK?20:56
systemdlete2I would simply like to be able to use the clipboard in peace, amen.20:57
systemdlete2I HOPE that "getting creative" is not the only path here20:58
systemdlete2I mean, what would you recommend so that I have a working clipboard, copy/paste, and all the functoinality of a modern desktop?20:58
systemdlete2You know, I am using xfce on my host system, so...  yeah.20:59
nemosystemdlete2: I'm a fan of MATE personally20:59
systemdlete2I love MATE.20:59
fsmithredI think most people around here start with just the standard system utilities and then add whatever desktop stuff they want later.20:59
nemosystemdlete2: I've given XFCE an honest effort over the years but MATE just seems to have everything together20:59
systemdlete2the only problem is, I've been having issues with clipboard21:00
nemosystemdlete2: huh. like what?21:00
nemosystemdlete2: and it's broken in XFCE *and* MATE?21:00
systemdlete2copy paste for one21:00
nemosystemdlete2: you're unable to copy/paste?21:00
systemdlete2lxde and mate.  Not sure about xfce, but it seems to be fine there21:00
nemosystemdlete2: or is it, like, the keyboard shortcuts don't work?21:00
nemosystemdlete2: could you have possibly accidentally messed up your keyboard config?21:00
systemdlete2sometimes copying 2 or 3 or even 4 times to get it to stick to the clipboard21:01
systemdlete2O_o indeed...21:01
nemosystemdlete2: you know that it's ctrl-shift-c/ctrl-shift-v for terminals right? ☺21:01
fsmithredusing keyboard or mouse?21:01
systemdlete2nemo: yes21:01
systemdlete2mouse only21:01
nemosystemdlete2: aaand is this the X paste system (select/middle click) or the gnome one which uses the keyboard bindings21:01
systemdlete2but even the keyboard shortcuts don't seem to be any more responsive tbh21:01
fsmithredcheck with keyboard. Or try a different mouse.21:02
systemdlete2nemo:  above my paygrade, sorry.21:02
systemdlete2fsmithred:  Mouse works fine on host and other VMs, so...21:02
fsmithredoh, maybe it's the VM21:02
nemosystemdlete2: the X one is the one that does text-only and you just select then middle click to paste.  it's pretty nice to have 2 paste systems IMO21:03
systemdlete2the VM?   That is a multi-faceted statement21:03
nemowindows users make fun of it, but... they are the ones pasting to url bar on their browser and sending the info to google, just to clear out rich text formatting ☺21:03
fsmithredyeah, I just threw some more targets onto the field21:03
systemdlete2I mean, which aspect of "VM" do you mean21:03
systemdlete2(thanks, I needed more targets...  lol)21:03
systemdlete2All this is damage from...21:04
fsmithrednot sure, but I sometimes get weird problems with mouse/keyboard in VM21:04
systemdlete2But I don't get it in other VMs!21:04
fsmithredhow did you install devuan?21:04
systemdlete2we are talking vbox here, right?  (not parallels or such)21:04
fsmithredyeah, I use vbox a lot and lately qemu21:05
systemdlete2How?   Was I standing or sitting at the time?   Or do you mean which ISO?  Or expert or dummy install?  Sorry, fsmithred...21:05
fsmithredthe latter, please21:06
* systemdlete2 scratches his head... trying to remember events of a month or more ago21:06
fsmithredyou selected mate in the installer?21:06
systemdlete2omg.  I really wish I could remember now...21:06
nemosystemdlete2: this is kind of silly but... does it happen for all users of the system?21:06
nemocould narrow it down to a config problem in a specific user at least21:06
systemdlete2I know you are trying to help me, but you are helping someone who is not a native debianite21:07
fsmithredwell, you either got all your desktop apps with the initial install or you had to add them all later.21:07
nemo"have you tested with a clean profile" to paraphrase firefox support question #121:07
* systemdlete2 looks around his apartment. No other people here, not even a dog.21:07
fsmithredI'm talking about libreoffice, gimp and all the rest of it21:07
nemosystemdlete2: you could create a new user on the system to test...21:07
systemdlete2fsmithred:  Since I can't remember21:08
systemdlete2maybe better to start all over?21:08
fsmithredget root and run 'history'21:08
fsmithredor 'history | grep install'21:08
systemdlete2I don't mind, and maybe it would spare you all a problem trying to sort this out21:08
systemdlete2Uh, I guarantee my history does not go back that far.  I've been very busy here.21:08
systemdlete2(in the VM)21:08
systemdlete2Now, the apt history might be interesting, idk?21:09
fsmithredyou can also look in /var/log/apt/history.log (and the backup files)21:09
* systemdlete2 thinks: great minds think alike. He wishes he were one of them.21:09
fsmithredand yes, a reinstall might be faster than diagnosing and fixing the problem21:09
systemdlete2well, is any of this diagnosis helpful to the project, such as discovering mismatches etc?21:10
systemdlete2or is it all just a guessing game?21:10
fsmithrednot so much for ascii21:10
fsmithredwe're trying to sort that out for beowulf21:10
systemdlete2[They just could not leave Linux alone.  They had to "improve" it.  They just had to.   There was no alternative.   Then came the great surgeries to remove the infections.  But nothing worked right after that...]21:11
fsmithredI have to go afk soon. Will be back in about an hour.21:11
systemdlete2[but this is for debianfork, not devuan...]21:11
systemdlete2fsmithred:  I'll probably have the new VM done before you return!21:11
systemdlete2Thanks for trying, seriously.21:12
systemdlete2and thanks to nemo and golinux and the gang here.  I always appreciate it, even if I sound otherwise.21:12
systemdlete2So... xfce and -- assuming I will be bypassing login -- which DM?21:15
buZz'slim' is nice and minimal21:16
systemdlete2The reason is I am trying to build a sort-of appliance for my backups21:16
buZz'lightdm' is another of my fav21:17
buZzsystemdlete2: why would that need a gui?21:17
systemdlete2I prefer lightdm myself.  But I won't really be using it here21:17
systemdlete2buZz:  It really doesn't.21:17
systemdlete2But a full working desktop sure is nice when I have to go in and figure out what went booooom.21:18
buZzwell, not running a GUI saves a ton of cpu and ram21:18
systemdlete2true that!21:18
fsmithredyou can set it so it doesn't boot to desktop. Just call that up when you need it.21:20
systemdlete2I could set it up so that it would only run a desktop if I explicitly log in and start it21:20
systemdlete2I thought you had gone to lunch21:20
fsmithrednot yet21:20
fsmithredwaiting for someone to arrive21:20
systemdlete2I am wondering... how close is beowulf now?  Weeks?  Months?21:20
fsmithredI'm hoping we're only weeks away from beta installer isos21:21
systemdlete2I am guessing since there isn't a beta yet21:21
systemdlete2probably a few months to release, maybe 1Q2020?21:21
fsmithredwhich reminds me, I need to play with an install I made from a beowulf live today21:21
masonFWIW, hand-installs of Beowulf have been working nicely for me, but they're not something folks will generally want to do.21:21
systemdlete2I have one of those, mason.21:22
systemdlete2I haven't touched it in months though.21:22
fsmithredlast few upgrades to beowulf were easy21:22
masonAh, I'm actively using Beowulf on a few systems now.21:22
systemdlete2I use it for reference and to try to follow convos here in the channel, just to see what they are talking about21:22
yetiI've no more ascii on real hardware... just in some VMs for reference21:23
systemdlete2beowulf more or less gets nonsystemd debian caught up, right?21:23
buZzanyone here on beowulf with working wine32? :P21:23
masonsystemdlete2: Depending on your definition, it's kind of there now. From my limited perspective, libelogind0 is the big thing, since it's already possible to run sysvinit on Buster.21:25
masonI have one such server running today. Whether it can dist-upgrade when the time comes is an open question.21:26
systemdlete2So if I think of the whole series as a sort-of "rolling" release...21:26
masonsystemdlete2: Well, Beowulf is Buster. So if you have it running happily, it's getting stable packages from Debian.21:26
systemdlete2So it looks like (from, buster is the current release there.  Beowulf WOULD in fact bring devuan up to current then.21:32
systemdlete2Soooo.  Good job guys!  You done good.21:33
systemdleteanyone here using the "virtual" ascii ISO?23:10
live2liveanyone know if #devuan-hurd and #devuan-kfreebsd are basically fake/not active projects? they have the same 3 users, called gnu_srs[0-2]23:11
systemdleterephrase that:   Anyone here using devuan ascii from the "virtual" ISO?23:11
fsmithredI think it's just a qcow image. You can convert it to vbox image if you want23:11
systemdletethere is actually a .vdi.zx there already for download23:12
fsmithredzx or xz?23:12
masonlive2live: I'm unaware of work with those kernels, but you never know. This would be a more appropriate place for them than upstream Debian now I imagine.23:12
systemdletemy question was more, like, how stable is it vs the other sorts of installs?  Are there any things hanging around from whoever's image it came from?23:13
masonlive2live: Someone in #devuan-dev might know more.23:13
systemdleteiow, any gotchas or things to look out for.23:13
systemdleteor, put yet another way, how was the qcow or vdi images created?  From what?23:14
fsmithredI haven't used a virtual image since the valentine release23:14
fsmithredfrom sdk23:14
fsmithredI think it's just a base system23:14
systemdleteSo they exported it out of vbox?23:18
fsmithredno, they built it with sdk23:19
fsmithredsimilar to how the live isos are made23:19
systemdleteit's designed to be used from a terminal.   Hmmm.23:23
systemdleteThat might be ideal for an appliance box, yes.23:24
systemdleteI'd still like an optional desktop, which I could add myself.  I'd like to configure it for autologin without desktop.23:26
systemdleteIt's 2.0.0, not 2.1.  OTOH, since it is already installed, maybe an immediate upgrade would still be safe?23:28
fsmithredthat's usually just a setting in the display manager config file23:28
fsmithredyeah, upgrade23:28
systemdleteit's only an install before the apt fix (ie. 2.0) that's a problem.23:29
fsmithredwhy not just use a netinstall iso?23:29
systemdleteThat was my 2nd choice, yes.23:30
systemdleteI already downloaded it (whew it was fast today!).23:30
systemdleteI will go with netinstall23:30
fsmithreduncheck everything except standard system utilities at the tasksel window23:30
fsmithredand maybe ssh server if you plan to use that23:30
systemdleteno ssh23:30
fsmithredthen add what you want23:31
systemdleteas far as desktops, maybe wait until after install?23:31
fsmithredit's not as easy, but you end up with only what you want23:31
fsmithredand if you want to remove something, it's MUCH easier23:31
fsmithredthe task-*-desktop packages pull in a lot (everything) and make it harder to customize23:32
fsmithredyou could just add xorg and a plain window manager if you want to keep it light23:34

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