freenode/#devuan/ Friday, 2019-11-08

systemdleteBareOS backup + Mega cloud storage on Devuan Ascii.00:37
systemdletethis is me being clumsy, sorry00:37
systemdletegetting an error message from install:  an installation step failed  You can try to run the failing item again from the menu, or skip it and choose something else.  The failing step is select and install software00:39
systemdletewtf?   What failed, as in tell me enough to figure out what to fix00:39
gnarfaceit was probably the last thing you tried00:40
gnarfaceyou can go re-do everything in the menu though00:40
systemdletewhich is... what?00:40
gnarfacei dunno... you can just alt+F4 to look for errors00:40
systemdletethe "last thing I tried" was to install the system!!!00:41
gnarfacemaybe ctrl+alt+f400:41
gnarfaceit could have run into a mirror disruption during downloading00:41
gnarfaceusually that will succeed on a second pass though00:41
systemdleteconfiguring pkgsel failed with error code 10000:41
systemdleteno space left on device...   huh???00:41
systemdleteit's a 10GB disk!00:41
gnarfaceyou're outta space00:41
gnarfacewell don't select everything00:42
systemdleteI didn't, honestly.00:42
gnarfacemaybe you failed to partition it all?00:42
systemdleteI used expert guided install00:42
gnarfaceor maybe you used auto partitioning and it sucked00:42
systemdletemore likely00:42
systemdleteor I suck00:42
systemdleteanyway, something definitely sucked here00:42
gnarfacewell, those things might not be mutually exclusive00:42
gnarfacejust go back and check it again00:43
systemdleteor start over00:43
gnarfaceyou don't have to do the whole thing over00:43
gnarfaceyou can just go back to that step and do it and the subsequent steps over00:43
systemdleteif you read the channel logs, you'd know why I am VERY nervous about NOT starting over00:43
gnarfacethough, if you select a big desktop setup it can really soak up 10gb00:43
systemdleteI only chose xfce00:43
gnarfacehmmm, i dunno then00:44
gnarfacemake sure most of that 10gb goes to /usr00:44
* systemdlete seems to recall this SAME scenario, months back00:44
systemdleteso maybe I should do my own partitioning...00:44
gnarfaceor maybe just make one partition and put everything in /00:44
gnarfaceyes, you should do your own partitioning00:44
systemdlete^ again00:44
gnarfacewell you should make TWO partitions - one for / and one for swap, but the swap partition doesn't need to be very big00:44
systemdleteI chose separate /var /home and whatever00:44
systemdleteyeah, that's usually what I do.00:45
systemdleteI like Lvm also00:45
gnarfaceif you do that on only 10GB just make sure you're putting most the space in /usr because that's where most the program data goes00:45
systemdleteso, since WE know that, how come the installer doesn't seem to?00:45
gnarfaceyou'll want some working space in /home, but in practice you can get away with almost no space for /home00:45
systemdleteI like to think that software is smarter than I am00:45
gnarfacethe installer's "guided" or "automatic" setups are not very smart, they're based on rough percentages that make less sense when the disk gets too small00:46
gnarfaceif this had been a 160GB disk you'd probably never have noticed00:46
gnarfacebut you can easily soak up 20GB on the desktop apps alone00:46
systemdleteAnd I would have ended up with a very bloated system because I didn't notice...00:47
systemdleteThe last ascii vm I built fit into 8GB00:47
gnarfaceyou can just as easily install with only 2GB of space, but you have to be careful what you select in tasksel (like, nothing)00:47
systemdleteI find the desktop choice menu a bit confusing, as in I'm not sure what the consequences are of checking the main entry vs checking the main entry AND one or more of the desktop entries00:48
gnarfacei'm seeing 59549 packages in the repo right now00:48
systemdleteI will be using very few of them00:48
gnarfaceyou definitely want to avoid installing all of them :)00:48
systemdleteno kidding?00:48
systemdletewhat if I want to be The King of Devuan?00:49
gnarfacethen you'll need some bigger disks00:49
systemdleteand a lot more time I think00:49
gnarfaceyea probably, or just a lot more bandwidth00:49
systemdleteI get 70gb down00:49
systemdlete(or so says netspeed)00:49
systemdleteI'll stick with a more limited selection.00:50
systemdleteSo, when I get to the desktop choices, what do I do if I only want xfce, say?00:50
systemdletewhat happens if I check the main entry for desktops and the checkbox for xfce?  As an example00:51
fsmithredyou get bloat00:58
fsmithredif you only want xfce, DO NOT check the box for xfce00:59
gnarfacesystemdlete: you can just check nothing there.  the system will still boot.  just select the one that says "standard system utilities" or whatever00:59
fsmithred^^^ what he said00:59
fsmithredinstall xfce4 after you reboot into the new system00:59
gnarfacesystemdlete: in your scenario, it's better to just install what you want after it's booting01:00
gnarfacethat way you can sorta interactively watch it run out of space, and decide what you really need01:00
systemdletesure, but what is the meaning of the selections?   (checking both the main and specific desktop entries?)  What is that supposed to do?01:00
gnarfacesystemdlete: there's these things called meta-packages, which are just packages that install a bunch of other packages01:01
gnarfacesystemdlete: of those meta-packages, there's a subset all named starting with "task-"01:01
systemdletethat isn't my question though.01:01
gnarfacesystemdlete: (hang on, i'm getting to it) all this page does is select one or more of those tasks for you01:01
systemdleteMy question is:  Which wins in that scenario, just install xfce or install every desktop01:01
gnarfaceit will install all of them,01:01
systemdleteshouldn't those be exclusive?01:02
gnarfaceand i don't know which one it will leave as default01:02
gnarfaceno you can have more than one01:02
gnarfacethe users aren't all forced to use the same one01:02
gnarfacethis isn't windows :-p01:02
systemdleteso if I check the main one and then check just one or two of the desktops, the checkbox for the main entry should clear!!!01:02
systemdleteI'm simply talking about the installer UI at this step where you choose desktops01:03
gnarfaceheh, maybe.  but i think you're expecting it to be smarter than it really is.  the installer is a simple creature01:03
gnarfacea brainless automoton01:03
systemdleteand this is one of the many reasons that Debian is so beloved by zillions?01:05
systemdleteor is it geared to wizards who already know how it all works?01:05
gnarfaceit's because there's flexibility here you're not seeing the value in yet, due to lack of experience.  i just recommend you take some deep breaths and let this one slide.  for the record, i almost never use that section to install my desktop OR server environment.  usually all i check is the standard system packages one, because that's the only one i know for sure contains mostly only packages i would have installed anyway01:06
gnarfaceor, look at it this way:  Debian was made for *everyone* and you're now experiencing some growing pains transitioning from a novice user to a power user (one who actually cares how their disk space is used, rather than throwing money at every problem blindly)01:07
gnarfacei wouldn't advise resisting that transition.  i would advise embracing it.01:07
systemdleteI've ALWAYS been that way.  I'm trying to "embrace" the transition.  It's just that this is a simple UI problem that could be corrected pretty easily01:07
gnarfaceeh, if you think it's that easy i suggest you crack the installer code and do it :)  they'll welcome patches that are done well01:08
gnarface(you will probably instead quickly figure out that it's not worth it)01:08
systemdleteSo the installer code is not "easy?"   Why not?   All it is doing is gathering info from the user and then performing the various steps required to accomplish that.  But...01:09
systemdleteyeah.  OK01:09
gnarfaceit's old01:09
systemdleteI know.  You said that when I did my first install back in, what, July?01:10
gnarfaceyea it's been old for a long time lol01:10
systemdleteanyway, I figured out my install failure.  It WAS disk space.  Just not what I'd expect01:10
gnarfacehonestly, i think you're doing fine.  you're just angry about the wrong things.01:11
systemdletethe auto partitioning gave like 4 or 5G to /home and only 2.5 or so to /01:11
gnarfacewe've all been there01:11
fsmithredI would not try to install all the desktops with devuan - there may be conflicts with polkit stuff01:11
systemdleteso natch, the install fails due to not enough space in /01:11
fsmithredauto partition doesn't work right with small disks01:11
fsmithredI've only heard that it works right with large disks. Never tried it.01:12
gnarfacesystemdlete: yea so part of this is knowing what you're gonna do with it... and 5GB to home would be more a setup for a media computer where the users are storing all their files locally, or a default Steam install or something like that..01:12
systemdleteSo the algorithm is essentially don't be afraid to waste consumer's disk space01:12
gnarfacei doubt it's even that well thought out.  like i said, i presume it's based on rough percentages and maybe some additional logic but nothing complex01:13
systemdleteIf the consumer is too cheap (like me) to give debian more space then screw THEM, not me, the Holy Installer01:13
fsmithredselect Manual install01:13
gnarfacei mean, honestly this is something that could change.  automatic partitioning is one of the newer features01:13
systemdleteWell, it could actually CALCULATE how much space the user's selections will actually require and then partition per that01:14
gnarfacebut yea, you're better off just doing this manually if you don't like how it does it automatically.01:14
systemdletefsmithred:  I am doing expert graphical install01:14
gnarfacekeep in mind it doesn't even know what your selections are yet at this phase01:14
gnarfaceand the sizes on the package headers are ... estimates01:14
systemdleteAh, but it COULD know if it asked you what you want to install BEFORE it partitions the disk(s)...01:14
fsmithredexpert install still gives you choice of manual or automatic partitioning01:14
systemdleteI am doing manual partitioning (THIS time).  I got burnt the first round...01:15
systemdleteLook: I know this isn't anyone's fault HERE in devuan-land01:15
gnarfacesystemdlete: yea, but now you're not talking about a trivial change to the logic of one installer section anymore.  now you're talking about a comprehensive overhaul that would require it having the ability to download and unpack packages just to preview their total install size...01:15
systemdleteand who the heck wants to do THAT???01:15
systemdlete(just giving you a hard time)01:16
systemdleteit sounds like the choice to go with systemd wasn't the only issue at Debian01:16
gnarfacesystemdlete: it sounds like a few orders of magnitude more work than your initial complaint implied, that's all.  while you're arguing in your head about this, don't forget to consider the possibility that there might be a good reason nobody did this yet.01:16
fsmithredin this case, old code does not mean code that was written long ago and is still in use, it means code that was started long ago and has more code flung at it by various people over time.01:17
systemdletecode creep01:17
systemdleteMy partitioning, this time, gives / over 7G01:18
gnarfacethat seems rational01:18
systemdleteI gave /home 1G and swap 1G -- /home really doesn't need that much space unless you're a dev or a gamer01:19
gnarfacemy guess is the thing initially just was a straight percentage map and then someone was like "hey my home directory is only 2MB!" so someone made a quick change to put a floor on the /home size, and now here we are01:19
systemdleteor someone who will be finding lots of uses to create files in their home dir01:19
systemdleteprobably.  But the problem with THAT thinking is they didn't stop to put a floor on / (or wherever /usr might end up)01:20
gnarfaceyes, also as the sole proprietor of the machine, you can always just chown yourself more directory space in /usr/local somewhere01:20
systemdletewhich is really more important to getting the install to complete successfully01:20
systemdleteBut, really, all of this is ground you and fsmithred have covered many times I sure...01:20
gnarfacewell, you COULD have done a minimal install and then it would have fit in < 500MB just fyi01:21
systemdleteI tried to do a minimal install (xfce only)01:21
gnarfaceyes, been over this hundreds of times01:21
fsmithredthey make best-guess sane defaults and always leave you a way to modify it. (used to be that way)01:21
gnarfaceand no, that's not what i meant by minimal01:21
gnarfacewhat i meant by minimal is literally don't check any boxes on that tasksel page01:21
systemdleteEven that shouldn't have exceeded about 4G, which is what most of my other systems can start with01:21
fsmithredhow big is this disk?01:22
systemdleteand I'm doing lvm01:23
fsmithredand using it for what kind of server?01:23
systemdletewhich is another way to make it easier for users to configure more space for themselves ("/home") AFTER install...01:23
systemdleteit's going to be my backup server (bareos)01:23
fsmithredand you'll have another drive to hold the backups?01:24
systemdleteI already have a backup server which has been running fine for years.  The only trouble is that it is a very old version of Ubuntu (14.04)01:24
systemdleteOmg, yes!!!!01:24
systemdleteLike probably around 50-100G eventually01:24
systemdleteThat's what my original backup machine has now.01:24
fsmithredI'd probably just make one partition01:24
fsmithredplus swap01:24
gnarfacethese days on a disk that small that's what i'd do, too01:25
systemdleteI like being able to fully control my disk space.01:25
gnarfacebut that's because i would have bigger disks for other stuff01:25
* systemdlete restarts the install01:25
fsmithredwhere you you get 50-100G disks today?01:26
fsmithredusb sticks?01:26
systemdletevdi files?01:26
systemdletethe backup tapes are sync'd to the cloud (mega)01:26
systemdleteI've been using this scheme for 5 years now.01:27
systemdleteI'd have upgraded ubuntu but for the fact that after 14.04, you-know-what started to happen to that distro...01:27
systemdleteIt was/is working and I wanted to preserve that happy state of affairs.01:28
systemdletefilipdevuan:  shhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!01:28
filipdevuan_oops :01:28
filipdevuan_sorry systemdemon!!!!01:28
systemdletedont' say that around here please!  Mind your manners in the devuan channel.01:28
filipdevuan_yeah shouldn't mention demons....01:28
systemdletenot that one, no01:29
filipdevuan_i agree, sorry01:29
fsmithredsystemdlete, did you get to the tasksel screen yet?01:29
systemdletejust kidding, filipdevuan.   I don't really much care.01:29
filipdevuan_haha :P01:29
systemdletefsmithred:  Nope not yet.01:29
systemdletethe folks at adelie linux are developing their very own installer (Horizon).  I wonder if that could eventualy be ported back here?01:33
systemdleteThey're building for musl, though.  But I'd think anything that works with musl would work elsewhere01:34
systemdlete(it's just a thought)01:34
systemdletewhat is in non-free anyway?  Anything I'd need for backups?01:35
systemdletefsmithred:  There now01:40
systemdleteIt's collecting the info now01:40
fsmithredas suggested, uncheck all except Standard system utilities01:40
systemdleteright, thank you01:40
fsmithredthat will give you things like 'less' and bzip201:41
systemdleteI chose no non-free or contrib.  I can add those later01:41
systemdletewell "less" is kind of useful (when I remember to use it not "more")01:41
systemdletebzip might be needed by bareos (bacula, re-incarnated) as well as other compression tools01:42
systemdleteok, so I cleared the checkboxes except for standard utils01:42
fsmithredcool. Proceed01:42
fsmithredwhen you reboot, you can install xorg, xfce4 and whatever else you need.01:43
systemdleteIs it possible to (easily) boot into a shell rather than be forced to login?01:43
fsmithredyou mean auto-login to console?01:44
systemdleteyeah.  Is that just monkeying with /etc/inittab?01:44
fsmithredthat involves editing01:44
systemdletethat way, this sort-of "appliance" box can fire up automatically -- I'm thinking of the megasync tool, but actually, this may not be necessary after all (auto login) because I think I've figured out how to make it start without a desktop running01:45
gnarfaceit would be better if you had it start in the background rather than disabling authentication entirely01:46
systemdletethe only problem is that it runs from a regular user, so I might have to script it to sudo to my regular user01:46
systemdlete(right, that's what I mean)01:46
gnarfaceyou can use sudo or su for that01:46
gnarfacesu might be easier01:46
systemdletesudo seems to work ok01:46
gnarfacei just mean for scripting01:46
gnarfacesu doesn't require any additional configuration per user to work01:47
gnarfaceanother good option, though one i've never used01:47
systemdleteI tried it, but it did not work for me.  Again, could be operator error -- it happens a lot here!01:47
gnarfacethe other important thing about su is that it's always installed.  runas and sudo have to be requested01:48
systemdleteIt finished.01:48
systemdleteomg.  It actually finished.01:48
systemdleteOne Big Filesystem.  Worked.01:48
systemdletebut I did do it as lvm so I can further manipulate the space later on01:48
gnarfacesee, when you realize that you wasted way more effort just soapboxing about it than the workaround really cost you, you eventually just stop getting mad about these trivialities and you move on to grander annoyances01:48
systemdleteoh fun01:49
gnarfacealso known as the type of problem that is only a problem the first one or two times, then you just simply grow out of it01:50
systemdletegnarface:  Are you an old-time Debian guy, or did you come out of the RH/CentOS tradition like me?01:50
fsmithredcan you make a cron job so you don't have to mess with it?01:50
systemdlete(I have some prejudices)01:50
gnarfacesystemdlete: i did come from RH though the only thing i liked about it was the installer01:50
systemdleteyou don't like RPM then?01:50
gnarfaceno, deb is superior IMO01:50
systemdleteyum (or now dng)01:50
gnarfaceyum didn't exist yet by the time i switched away from RH though01:51
gnarfaceso dependency tracking was manual01:51
systemdletefsmithred:  Would it run immediately upon boot?  Otherwise, it won't work for me.01:51
gnarfacethat was a big win for Debian01:51
fsmithredcron jobs run when you schedule them to run01:51
systemdleteso that won't work01:51
gnarfaceand i failed to successfully make it through the debian installer for a whole release or two before finally getting the hang of it01:52
systemdleteI might start the appliance (VM) at any time01:52
fsmithredwhen do you need it to run?01:52
systemdletewhenever the system boots01:52
gnarfacesystemdlete: anything you put into /etc/rc.local run at boot up time, with or without a desktop environment01:52
fsmithredcould put it...01:52
systemdletegnarface, fsmithred: That's what I was figuring also -- rc.local01:53
systemdletethat's what it's for on most systems, for local customizations like this01:53
fsmithredyou don't need to log in for that to work01:53
systemdletewell, it appears I have my work cut out01:53
systemdleteI can port the work I did previously and hopefully it will just work01:54
systemdleteactually, rpm has always had dependency checking.01:55
systemdletemaybe the first few releases back in the 90s didn't.01:56
gnarfaceyea, i'm really that old01:56
systemdleteBut by the time I was reading the RH RPM book in the mid-90s it was there01:56
systemdleteSo you must have a lot of rings in your treetrunk01:56
systemdlete(like me)01:57
gnarfacewell first of all, yum wasn't made until 1999 at earliest, just fyi01:57
systemdleteno way01:57
gnarfaceyea, and wikipedia says it was made in python, which i'm surprised to find out even existed that long ago01:58
systemdleteIstr reading that book in Seattle.  I lived there in the 90's01:58
systemdleteyum, yes.01:58
systemdleteyum may not have come along until 199901:58
systemdletebut rpm had been around for years01:58
systemdleteI was only talking about rpm. sorry01:59
gnarfacei'm aware that RPMs could handle dependency awareness, what i meant was that without yum, there was no real useful leverage of that information aside from your own manual intervention01:59
gnarfacewhereas debian already had apt by then01:59
gnarfaceit was entirely designed to be networked from the ground up01:59
systemdleteyum did make it much easier01:59
gnarfacemany of the things i like best about RH were straight up stolen from Debian, if only in concept, but by then i'd already learned my way through the Debian installer so there was no looking back02:00
systemdleteactually, I really like apk which adelie and alpine are using02:00
systemdleteapk does do dep checking02:01
systemdletebut it doesn't do yum/apt type front end stuff02:01
systemdletethere's a bit of manual intervention.02:01
systemdletethe other system I like is arch's pacman, but that's really the only thing I like about arch.02:02
gnarfacewell before things like arch and gentoo came along, Debian was definitely considered the "deep end"02:03
gnarfacebut you'll come to terms with a greater truth while working with it02:03
systemdleteI tried gentoo once.02:03
systemdleteI remember starting the build process when I was a teenager and it finished just as I started getting social security.02:04
systemdlete(all those questions!)02:05
gnarfaceyes, that's why i came back to Debian from Gentoo, too.  eventually you need to get work done and you can't wait for all that rebuilding.  though this is also another problem that the speed of modern hardware obviates02:05
systemdletebut the speed of modern hardware also obviates the need to find clever ways to speed up boot time.02:06
systemdleteThe memo just didn't get to everyone.02:07
gnarfaceok, now we're getting clearly into #debianfork territory02:07
gnarfaceyou're not wrong, it's just not support related anymore.  you know what you're doing.02:07
gnarfaceyou know how to make it work now that is the important part.02:07
systemdletethanks for your help and tolerating my intolerance02:08
gnarfaceyou're welcome02:09
* Xenguy doesn't tolerate intolerance : -)03:25
systemdletefsmithred:  Your cron idea gave me an idea -- rather than starting the mega-sync once, I could have cron run mega-sync every minute.  There is no harm in running it; if the server is already running, it just quietly returns.  But if it somehow stopped running, it will restart it.  mega-sync is not the actual sync itself, just a messenger requesting the server to run and that's all it does.09:53
systemdleteSo rather than a one-off, I can do this once a minute or so.  And then I can avoid using rc.local at all (though I could still do that also).09:54
systemdleteSo... thanks again for the suggestion.  I just wasn't thinking of the solution multi-dimensionally.  (You probably were.)09:54
ErhuI am not in the sudoers file, this incident will be reported. How can I install Geany that with $ sudo make install ?09:56
Erhuif I use su - then it installs as user is root, if I try sudo <command> it is disabled.09:57
Erhuwhen I try su - then make install, then I can not use geany unless I am root.09:58
debdogErhu: is thera a document you're following? just to see what's happening.10:02
debdogand, what is the prefix?10:02
debdogor at least a link to that geany thingy10:03
ErhuEver doc that I have seen has used sudo <command>10:03
Erhuit yet it has been disabled.10:04
debdogthe prefix is /usr/local. which means if you add your user to the group staff you'll have write access there10:04
Erhuthat is not where I am building,,, I am building in /home/<>/build10:06
ErhuI need sudo in my build directory10:07
ErhuI am lost; and not even able to hear what your saying, because this is so frustrating.10:07
Erhutake care10:08
toprohi there, does devuan policykit-1 support JavaScript .rules files? I.e. was that backported as upstream policykit only supports that feature starting with 0.106 :/ I'd desperately need that feature for more fine-grained user permissions11:23
systemdletejoin #mega19:02
unixmanHaving problems getting the repo mirrored from the last couple of days:
unixmanrsync: failed to connect to ( Operation timed out (60) rsync error: error in socket IO (code 10) at clientserver.c(127) [Receiver=3.1.3]22:27
tuxd3vunixman: can you increase the timeout time?23:32
unixmantuxd3v, maybe. I'll have to look at that next week. Getting ready to leave work in a few minutes.23:32
tuxd3vunixman: good weekend! :)23:34
unixmanThank you. Same to you. :)23:34
tuxd3vthanks :)23:36

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