freenode/#devuan/ Thursday, 2020-02-06

tuxd3vHello can anybody here crossdebootstrap in beowulf without problems?00:27
tuxd3vit could be related to some lib I removed or not upgraded..00:28
tuxd3vbut ehrn run:00:28
tuxd3v'/debootstrap/debootstrap --second-stage'00:28
tuxd3vI: Installing core packages...00:30
tuxd3vW: Failure trying to run:  dpkg --force-depends --install00:30
tuxd3vso... you need to, chroot by hand, and00:30
tuxd3vfor file in $(ls /var/cache/apt/archives/);do dpkg --force-depends --install /var/cache/apt/archives/$file ;done00:30
tuxd3vis ascii I had never a problem crossdepootstrap. but it could be some lib that I am missing in beowulf..00:31
tuxd3valso I get a error in the process..00:32
tuxd3vdpkg: error: archive '/var/cache/apt/archives/partial' is not a regular file00:32
tuxd3vforget the partil last error...I was dumb to include  a force install on that directory..00:33
tuxd3v partil -> 'partial'00:33
fsmithredavbox, I can install falkon but it crashes when I run it. Here's the terminal output: https://termbin.com/33ke01:09
fsmithredI don't have any beowulf with libsystemd0 right now01:09
tuxd3valright guys... Loongson3A4000 is out in pre-sales :)01:36
tuxd3vthe last big CPU made in europe( France/Italy )01:36
tuxd3v20nm01:36
tuxd3v28nm01:36
tuxd3vAfter 3A4000 production will shift to Asia unfortunatly01:36
tuxd3vSales start on 15 February01:37
tuxd3vmips6401:37
tuxd3vwith lots of things from mips64r7 :)01:37
tuxd3vnow.. only 2 distributions at least for now..01:38
tuxd3vAnd none is debian, tough one is debian based..01:38
specingChinese CPU made in europe? wth?01:39
tuxd3vThey will shift from STMicroelectronics to TSMC probably they will go 16nm in next iteration, so 3A4000 will be the last produced by STMicroelectronics..01:41
tuxd3vThey always were done in France/Italy01:41
tuxd3vLoongSon is a open arch01:41
specingyes I was wondering why they aren't using TSMC already01:41
tuxd3vbecause Loongson, has a historycal past to build in Europe01:42
tuxd3vprecisely at STMicroelectronics01:42
tuxd3vbut that bond seems to be about to change as TSMC can already produce at 7 nm01:42
tuxd3vit was indeed a question of time..01:43
tuxd3vNow.. if there are political will, China wants to put here 5G right?So... they should build here there CPUs as well! :)01:44
specingthere is political will01:44
tuxd3vbusiness is business, if we were to be correct that would be the way to follow01:45
specingto be independent of out-of-china tech01:45
specingmy guess is that the loongson thingie is being supported a lot01:45
tuxd3vNot in Europe01:45
specingfrom CCP01:45
tuxd3vwhat is CCP?01:45
specingchinese communist party01:45
tuxd3vEverything in China is suported one way or another by the CCP01:46
tuxd3vthere are only one party01:46
specingthey need a competitive computer industry01:46
tuxd3v:D01:46
tuxd3v3A400 is a big leap forward!01:46
specingthat is able to support domestic demand even in the face of blockade01:46
tuxd3vnext iteration for what I read about will work at 2.5Ghz, anhd will surpass corei701:46
tuxd3vin total perf..01:47
tuxd3vNow Software optimizations...is another thing...they don't have much01:47
specing80W @ 2GHz sounds a lot01:47
specingsurpass? hah, maybe nehalem i701:47
tuxd3vWere do you read 80W@2Ghz?01:47
specingthe lowest model01:47
specingWikipedia01:47
tuxd3vfor what I read it was 45W@1.8Ghz01:48
specinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loongson#Loongson_3A400001:48
specingif you want something surpassing i7 ... POWER9?01:49
tuxd3vwell I am waiting , but for a powerpc laptop:01:50
tuxd3vhttps://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/01:51
specingI wouldn't mind one either01:51
specingThinkpad x200/T400 is a hard standard to beat though01:51
tuxd3vbut I don't have any mips64 arch, and besides this will be the last big processor produced in Europe..so..01:51
tuxd3vpower9 can wait :)01:51
specingtuxd3v: that campaign looks fishy01:52
specing"communications team"01:52
specingoutsourced to ACube System? Why not to raptorcs?01:53
specingthe laptop looks generic as all fuck01:53
specinglike$500 gamerbook level01:53
specingeven has wasd keys, haha01:53
tuxd3vbecause ACUBE has a bigger and longer tradition of building power products that Raptor computing will ever have01:53
tuxd3vthats why01:53
tuxd3vthey are in the business for at least 20 years01:54
tuxd3vwere was raptor computing 20 years ago?01:54
tuxd3vright..01:54
tuxd3vbesides this will be a product in partenership with Slimbook01:55
tuxd3vwhich will produce the Netbook chassis for Acube Systems01:55
specingnetbook?01:55
specingFor 180W POWER cpus?01:55
tuxd3vso its a European project not American..01:55
tuxd3vwell powerpc is01:55
specingThat's nice01:55
specingan european project for a change01:56
tuxd3vwere do you read 180W cpus?01:56
tuxd3vyou like big digits :S01:56
specingpower maxes out at 180W, most are 90W?01:56
specingand can be throthled down, of course01:56
tuxd3vofcourse not01:56
specingbut I'd want a laptop that can do the full 90W01:56
specingtuxd3v: ofcourse not what?01:57
tuxd3vNXP T2080, e6500 64-bit Power Architecture with Altivec technology01:57
tuxd3vhttps://www.powerpc-notebook.org/campaigns/donation-campaign-for-pcb-design-of-the-powerpc-notebook-motherboard/01:57
specingWait, this is not IBM POWER9?01:57
tuxd3vthe power consumption01:57
tuxd3vits powerpc01:57
tuxd3vut yeah, and its big endian :)01:58
tuxd3vSMT4 :)01:59
specingpfffft02:00
specingnot even ibm power902:00
tuxd3vwell it has options for SMT2 or SMT402:00
specingDoes it have open microcode/ open coprocessors like the IBM POWER9?02:00
tuxd3vofcourse its a open power isa02:01
specingIt has hardware SATA, 10gigE and PCI-e... looks promising02:01
tuxd3vbut the processor is made by NXP02:01
specingWhat is the qty1 price on the cpu?02:01
tuxd3vdon't know. but the final product will be maybe around 1500€02:02
tuxd3vyeah a bit02:02
tuxd3vsmall quantities you pay the price02:02
tuxd3vthe LoongSon is also around 1000€ but the Entire desktop without display02:03
tuxd3vI am balanced02:03
tuxd3vbut because its a historical CPU for europe, maybe I will loose my mind :D02:03
tuxd3vhttps://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.9.2d036c42f3NgM6&id=611865639252&cm_id=140105335569ed55e27b&abbucket=9&skuId=430773678144202:04
specing1500eur is talos level02:04
tuxd3vyeah it could be02:04
tuxd3vbut its a laptop..02:04
tuxd3veven tought that the Chassis is for a Gamin laptop heheh02:04
tuxd3vso lets say its a portable desktop02:05
tuxd3v:)02:05
specingthat chassis choice is pure wtf02:05
tuxd3vyeah02:05
tuxd3vits for gaming.. I don't get it also..02:05
tuxd3vmaybe to justify the 1500€..it could be..02:05
specingto justify? Nobody will be playing any games but solitaire on that thing02:06
specingeven FOSS games are mostly x86 only02:06
specingThey could have at least taken some initiative and produced chassis CADs and submitted them to machinining/ SLS printing02:08
specingand then contracted motherboard when chassis design is settled upon02:09
specingacube systems website also looks sketchy as hell with the domain name choice and everything being out of stock02:11
tuxd3vhehehe02:16
specingFast SI bus simulations ?500002:16
specingwhat on earth is this02:16
tuxd3vthey were mostly working on Amiga, and derivative work02:16
tuxd3vretrogaming02:16
tuxd3vand other stuff02:17
tuxd3vnow they want to bring in a new Laptop with Powerpc open specs and a gamming chassis :D02:17
tuxd3vI like the Idea but 1500€  I don't know.. maybe I will lost my mind some day :D02:17
tuxd3valso the same about Loongson 3A4000 desktop tower, 1000€ is a lot, I am waiting for it for almost 1 year02:18
tuxd3vI received information this week02:18
tuxd3vabout it02:18
onefangWhat does any of this have to do with Devuan support?  Take it elsewhere please.02:19
specingok, debianfork02:19
tuxd3vbut 1000€.. I was expecting something til lets say 750€, for the last european produced cpu...but 1000, I don't know02:19
tuxd3vwell will Devuan attempt to have a mips64 port? :)02:21
tuxd3v:D02:21
onefangIf you throw some hardware at us, could be arranged.02:21
* specing throws qemu at onefang02:21
specing:)02:22
tuxd3v:)02:22
specingtuxd3v: #debianfork02:22
tuxd3vIt will be limited to 1 Desktop per developer, at least at beguining02:22
specingdesktop?02:22
tuxd3v:)02:22
tuxd3vyeas its sold as a box02:23
specingwhat is sold as a box?02:23
tuxd3vcomplete, 8GB ram loongson 3A4000.. I can't talk about that onefang will slice me in tiny pieces02:23
tuxd3v:)02:23
specingwhere is it being sold?02:24
tuxd3v#debianfork :)02:24
onefangI leave the slicing to golinux, she has chanop rights.  B-)02:24
golinuxUnfortunately not on #debianfork02:26
tuxd3v:)02:28
tuxd3vgolinux, thanks :)02:31
* tuxd3v for not slicing me :)02:32
golinux;)02:33
tuxd3vI have a dificult question at least for me..03:40
tuxd3vdevuan related :)03:40
tuxd3vI need to execute '/debootstrap/debootstrap --second-stage' is a chroot03:41
tuxd3vat same time from the errors I searched on the web, they sugest:03:41
tuxd3v'export DEBIAN_FRONTEND=noninteractive' or 'export DEBIAN_FRONTEND=teletype'03:42
tuxd3vbefore proceed, but the problem is03:42
tuxd3vI have no binaries in the chroot03:43
tuxd3vI am crossdebootstraping03:43
gnarfaceyou can do it without --second-stage, i think03:43
tuxd3v1st faze runs well packages are downloaded and left in the correct location03:43
tuxd3vif it was a debootstrap yes03:43
tuxd3vbut I am in amd6403:43
tuxd3vand I am Crossdebootstraping03:44
gnarfaceright, debootstrapping aarch6403:44
tuxd3vit requires 2 fazes03:44
gnarfaceyou don't need --second-stage03:44
tuxd3v2 fases03:44
tuxd3vbut how to you install the packages?03:44
tuxd3v1 fase only do unpack03:44
gnarfaceit worked for me03:45
gnarfacethough i did have to copy a qemu binary into the chroot manually to actually chroot successfully03:45
tuxd3vyes but that is another thing03:45
gnarfaceand make sure /etc/init.d/binfmt-support is running if it is not03:45
tuxd3vthat is yet another thing03:45
tuxd3vthat is to you to run a arm64 bynary in a amd64 arch03:46
tuxd3vits quemu emulator03:46
tuxd3vbut I am speaking about crossdebootstrap03:46
gnarfaceeh, maybe you're not doing what i did afterall03:46
tuxd3vsome sugest install 'dialog' package in host03:46
gnarfaceeh, i remember running into all that stuff but i really think it's a misdirection03:47
gnarfacesomeone pointed out that i don't need --second-stage and i was fine03:47
tuxd3vdoesn't make sense to me since the second stage will run in a chroot automatically like docker environment03:47
gnarfacei saved this in my notes:03:47
tuxd3vyou don't need if you are only debootstraping03:47
gnarfacedebootstrap --arch=arm64 --exclude=rsyslog,udev --include=syslog-ng --foreign ascii /mnt  # these includes/excludes may no longer be necessary03:47
gnarfacecp /usr/bin/qemu-aarch64-static /mnt/usr/bin/03:48
tuxd3vbut I apart from that am doing also Cross03:48
tuxd3vthat is crossdebootstraping03:48
tuxd3vin ascii I needed 2 stages03:48
gnarfacei did this on ceres.  the jessie, ascii and beowulf crossbuilding tools were all broken on devuan and debian for aarch6403:49
tuxd3vnow it couldbe diferent in beowulf, due to debootstrap changes itself..03:49
tuxd3vho..03:50
tuxd3vI need to revise documentation03:50
tuxd3vby hand it works nicely but not in a automated process like I have..03:50
gnarfacemaybe you're following documentation from before there was multiarch support in debian?03:50
tuxd3vI believe not03:51
onefangAnother way is to install a minimal Arm64 Devuan in qemu, then a non cross debootstrap in that?03:51
tuxd3vmy builder has 2 stages03:51
tuxd3vonefang, that is also a solution03:51
gnarfacei'm still confused about the distinction between what i did and what tuxd3v is referring to as "crossdebootstrap"03:52
tuxd3vinthat way for sure only one step is nedded..03:52
tuxd3vwhat you did is crossdebootstrap03:52
tuxd3vits both things simultaneously03:52
tuxd3vdebootstraping to a diferent arch03:52
tuxd3vremember that in this case debootstrap cannot use in chroot the host binaries03:53
tuxd3vthis is the big diference03:53
gnarfacetuxd3v: so, all i remember for sure was running into this same mess you ran into, finding the same documentation suggesting irrelevant fixes, and then someone pointed out that i don't need to use --second-stage at all.03:53
onefangCroosdebootstrap would build an ARM64 system, but starts by running in an AMD64 environment.  Then instead of chrooting into it to continue, it has to actually run the ARM64 bits, so needs to do the cross thing.03:53
gnarfacetuxd3v: but then the compilers before ceres were all broken for amd64->arm6403:54
tuxd3vgnarface, it could be03:55
tuxd3vbut for that I crosscompile with ARM crosscompilers host amd64, target arm6403:55
tuxd3vI only use crossdebootstrap to build the rootfs arm64 bits in arm64 bits machine03:56
tuxd3vsorry03:56
tuxd3v ARM64 bits in AMD64 bits03:56
tuxd3vit needs to be something, because by hand I can actually install the downloaded packages, but by hand03:57
tuxd3vno export03:57
tuxd3vdpkg will ask me questions that I respond to03:58
tuxd3vbut in a software docker like system, this process is automatic, I don't touch it03:58
tuxd3vI just tell him do build a rootfs for arm64, and it does everything, so It has to input from me03:59
tuxd3vand it crashes now after migration from ascii to beowulf, maybe due to several nasty things that hapened, but I believe have past03:59
tuxd3vtil this still error03:59
tuxd3vyou can see one error of this here:04:01
tuxd3vhttps://askubuntu.com/questions/344962/how-do-i-correct-this-error-with-debootstrap-in-ubuntu-server-12-04-3/51813904:01
tuxd3vI can't run interatively04:02
tuxd3vits a process task.04:02
tuxd3vgnarface, look here:04:13
tuxd3vhttps://askubuntu.com/questions/287789/what-is-debootstrap-second-stage-for04:13
tuxd3vdoes you guys have '/usr/share/keyrings/devuan-archive-keyring.gpg' in beowulf?04:22
tuxd3vcan't find the packages that provide  '/usr/share/keyrings/{devuan-archive-keyring.gpg,devuan-keyring.gpg}'04:25
tuxd3vin beowulf04:25
yetidevuan-keyring: /usr/share/keyrings/devuan-archive-keyring.gpg04:31
yetidevuan-keyring: /usr/share/keyrings/devuan-keyring.gpg04:31
tuxd3vcan you search the package that has them?04:32
tuxd3vI tried with apt-file show|list but returns empty :(04:32
tuxd3vyeti, thanks04:33
yetiVersion: 2017.10.0304:33
yetiyip04:33
yetitried apt-file 1st and got nutin'04:33
kiwi_73FYI, SHA256 (devuan_ascii_2.1_amd64_netinst.iso) = 9aa6de460fb944ddfec8c79306974a522be166e4d296e9673f083f9e1cc6c56c has us.deb as the main mirror choice...04:33
kiwi_73And very unfortunately, allows contrib and non-free with no notice to users during install04:35
yetituxd3v: dpkg --search devuan-archive-keyring.gpg devuan-keyring.gpg # helped04:35
yetibut finding not installe stiff with  broken apt-find is a mission...04:35
tuxd3vyeti, you got it :)04:36
tuxd3vindeed, I tough it was on my computer only :)04:36
yetinope04:37
yetiand missing descriptions for unchanged debian packages [hurts a lot]™ too04:38
yetitry: apt-cache show debian-keyring04:38
yetionly few packages make the delta from debian to devuan so mot packages have no description04:38
yeti:-(04:38
yetimoSt04:38
onefangThere should be short descriptions at least.  It's a known bug that the descriptions are shortened.04:45
yetidropped04:57
yetithe description field has oneliners followed by a multiline decription04:57
yetithe multiline part is dropped04:57
yetithe conversion drops all multiline parts?04:59
yetimaybe descriptions are he only multiline fields...05:01
yetiwell... only targetting VUAs, we need no long descriptions... :-Þ05:02
yeti*ping*   NEXT!05:03
onefangWe just need long gray beards.  B-)05:07
tuxd3v:D05:08
yetiups!05:09
* yeti ____( short white beards matter too! )05:10
yetibut in general all our irc topic lines should include https://dilbert.com/strip/1995-06-2405:11
yeti;-Þ05:11
yetiok... afk... killing sime FITamines...05:12
yetisOme05:12
golinuxWrong channel for chit-chat05:14
yetithe percenage of chitchat in the last hour was miniscule05:26
yetiwe are not borg...05:26
yetia bit of "noise" is "social glue"05:27
flingWhat do I add to sources.list to use winehq repo?07:30
flingor don't I touch sources list? I have no idea how to use it properly.07:30
gnarfacefling: you use sources.list07:35
gnarfacefling: (https://wiki.winehq.org/Debian)07:36
gnarfacefling: i would recommend *only* having the winehq repo in your sources.list while you do this, then remove it or comment it out right after07:37
onefangThis sort of thing is what /etc/apt/sources.list.d is for, your extra little repos.  So that would be /etc/apt/sources.list.d/winehq.list07:39
flingwill not it play nicely together?07:39
gnarfacefling: it will not play nice together.  winehq's wine packages clash with the debian ones.  you can't even trust them to conflict properly; you might get a munged frankenstein wine install07:40
gnarfacefling: yea, i should have mentioned that too.  remove *all* the distro-native wine packages first, if you're going to be using winehq's07:41
flingshould I go ascii or beowulf?07:45
gnarfacedepends on what you're using wine for, really07:49
gnarfaceif it's to play WoW or SC2 you probably need ceres, actually07:49
gnarfaceand wine-staging07:49
gnarface*winehq-staging, rather07:49
gnarfaceif it's to play something from the 90's there is a good chance it doesn't matter07:50
gnarface(in which case, you wouldn't really need the winehq packages either, probably.  you would likely be fine with the distro native wine or wine-development packages07:51
gnarface)07:51
flingIs not it possible to set the priority for a repo?07:52
gnarfaceoh, it is possible, i just can't explain that to you off the top of my head07:53
gnarfaceyou'd have to look up documentation on apt pinning07:53
gourregular wine didn't work for me - it's uninstallable on ceres, so i had to use winehw repo, although i do not have to run anything fancy, but, iirc, similar situation was when i was using sid...07:53
flinggour: what is your devuan version and what you added to the sources?07:54
gourfling: i'm on ceres, added:07:57
goureb https://dl.winehq.org/wine-builds/debian/ buster main07:57
gour*deb https://dl.winehq.org/wine-builds/debian/ buster main07:57
gnarfacethe buster one didn't work for me for Blizzard/Battle.net games, i needed the bullseye one07:58
gourbullseyes did not install here07:58
gnarfacehmm, maybe that's because i'm on ceres?07:58
gouri'm also on ceres07:58
gnarfacehmm, weird07:59
gnarfaceoh, did you purge your old wine packages first though?07:59
gourand buster does work07:59
flingshould I go ceres?07:59
gnarfacegour: i don't think i can definitely advise that unless you are confident in your backups07:59
gnarfaceer07:59
gnarfacethat was for fling07:59
flingI have snapshots07:59
gournope, 'old wine pkgs', iow. distro-wine did not install as well...not sure i purge them07:59
gour*purged them08:00
flingare you saying you are on ceres and only have this line in your sources.list? -> deb https://dl.winehq.org/wine-builds/debian/ buster main08:02
gouryes08:02
flinghow do you update? :P08:02
gouri mean, the line is in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/winehq.list08:03
flingcan I use it on beowulf?08:03
gouryou can try. if it works on ceres...08:04
flinghow to purge all the wine packages?08:06
gourtry something like: dpkg -l | grep i386 to see what you have08:07
gourhere are some line i see on the net like: sudo apt remove `dpkg --get-selections | grep i386 | awk '{print $1}'`08:08
gouror:  sudo aptitude remove ~i~ri38608:08
gourfling: https://askubuntu.com/questions/113301/how-to-remove-all-i386-packages-from-ubuntu-64bit08:09
* gour has to become better with debian-related admin tools08:09
flingwhat if I just apt mark as auto and then just autoremove?08:16
flingor should I purge somehow?08:16
flingI will just reinstall really quick08:17
gnarfacedpkg -l |grep wine08:20
gnarfaceall the wine packages have wine in the name08:20
gnarfacefling: yes, if you remove the right one, the rest might autoremove, but check to be sure08:25
gnarfacefling: i mean, you'll still have to run the command to autoremove, like "apt-get --purge autoremove", but it might work, just don't count on it08:26
flingwhat does --purge do?08:29
gnarfacealso removes config files08:31
gnarfaceit isn't perfect, sometimes you still have to manually remove an empty directory here or there08:31
yeti... and editorbackups of configs08:32
flingwhich package to install for wine?08:32
flingoh it is winehq-* stuff08:33
gnarfaceyou can pass regexp to apt-get earch08:34
gnarface*apt-get search08:34
flingwinehq-stable 5 depends on wine-stable 5 which is not in the repos08:35
flingshould I go ceres?08:35
gnarfaceshould be in the repo08:35
gnarfaceit might be looking in the wrong repo (one reason i recommended to temporarily remove the other repos)08:36
gnarfaceor you forgot to "apt-get update?"08:36
fling winehq-staging : Depends: wine-staging (= 5.1~buster)08:36
flingmaybe it does not like the buster part?08:37
gnarfaceyou might just be unlucky and they're currently rearranging08:37
gnarfacetry specifying it08:37
gnarface?08:37
gnarfacewinehq-staging/buster08:37
gnarfaceor -t buster?08:37
flingSelected version '5.1~buster' (winehq:stable [amd64]) for 'winehq-staging'08:38
flingsame error08:38
flinghow do I switch to ceres?08:38
gnarfaceare you on beowulf now?08:38
gnarfaceor did you say ascii?08:38
flingyes08:38
gnarfacebeowulf?08:38
flingbeowulf, can install ascii too08:39
gnarfaceupdating to ceres should be basically the same as updating to beowulf08:39
flingok08:39
gnarfacejust change beowulf to ceres in your sources.list and run "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade && apt-get dist-upgrade"08:39
gnarfacestuff might break though08:39
gnarfacei'm serious about you needing backups08:40
gnarfaceunless you REALLY don't care what's on there08:40
flingok I will take another snapshot08:40
flingnothing is there, can go back to ascii easily08:41
flingsame issue with ceres10:55
flingwhoops no, looks like I can't install i386 together with no arch10:56
gouram i right that Slim does not automatically unlock (gnome) keyring. which method you recommend?11:01
gourhmm, archlinux wiki says "slim 1.3.5-1 ships with /etc/pam.d/slim preconfigured to unlock keyring upon login. Users no longer need to modify the file."11:03
gourany hint why it does not work?11:04
flingnow it installs mono yay11:18
flinggour: maybe try with the working pam file you got on archlinux?11:19
gourfling: well, archlinux's wiki says to put two lines in /etc/pam.d/login which are already included in /etc/pam.d/slim. the one shipped in devuan is more extensive than this one: https://git.archlinux.org/svntogit/packages.git/tree/trunk/slim.pam?h=packages/slim11:24
flinggour: just check if it works for you11:24
gourlet me check what is in debian pkg11:25
goursame as in debian package...naturally :-)11:30
specing> fling | ok I will take another snapshot12:51
specingaaahh the power of CoW filesystems? :)12:51
specingHonestly I'm shocked that most distros still use ext4 by default12:51
djphspecing: why's that?12:52
GyrosGeierext4 is sensible because it doesn't lose data12:53
GyrosGeierpeople have experience with fsck repairing severely broken file systems and getting them back into a usable state12:53
specingGyrosGeier: ext4 loses data, it just has no means of detecting it12:54
specingit doesen't matter if you run XYZ filesystem when the write barrier support in your disk firmware is broken12:54
specingext4 => silent corruption12:54
specingbtrfs => parent transid verify failed12:54
specingdjph:^12:55
GyrosGeierthe question is, what happens then?12:55
GyrosGeierwill fsck.btrfs bring you back to a usable state, with whatever is salvageable in newly created files?12:55
specingext4 => ignorance is bliss12:55
specingbtrfs => restore from backups12:55
specing(on a new HDD)12:56
Acaciait's better to know about corruption as soon as possible so you can do whatever you need to do at the earliest, btrfs will notice it for you12:56
GyrosGeiertrue12:56
specingchecksumming is nice, snapshots are life changing12:56
GyrosGeierbut my backups live on ext4, because I don't have the option of restoring my backups from backups12:57
specingall my backups are btrfs12:57
specingI'm looking at adding ZFS into the mix, as well12:57
specingI don't want corrupted backups12:58
* gour is using external RDX disk for backup (XFS) and not wanting to touch (again) btrfs12:58
GyrosGeierXFS is notoriously bad at fsck though12:59
gourGyrosGeier: i never lost data with it which is not the case with btrfs13:04
specingThere are some caveats with btrfs, but if you still to the advice, you won't lose data13:09
specingthe advice is to stick to 4.9/4.19 kernel series and not use qgroups or raid5/613:09
nemoI was buying a VPS from OVH.  They only offer systemd distros.  It's possibly a little risky to try to swap out from under them, but I figured worst case I could just reinstall from the console13:23
nemoWhich Debian would be the best starting point for attempting a swap?13:23
nemo8?13:23
gourspecing: i lost data with raid1, anot only once - fortunately i had backup13:25
specingnemo: swap is easy13:30
specingnemo: use devuan13:30
specingI did a devuan swap on ubuntu server13:31
specingjust prepare a devuan image localy (on LVM), compact it, and transfer to remote tmpfs, then lock disk writes and dd it to /dev/vda13:32
specingand force reboot13:32
specingif you do it right, you won't need to touch the console at all13:32
onefangYou make it sound so simple.  B-)13:33
specingI think I wrote a howto on this on dev1galaxy13:38
specingI know I wrote a btrfs install howto13:38
specingnot sure on swap thingie13:38
GyrosGeiergour, did you ever run fsck.xfs?13:43
nemospecing: I've never done that before. was hoping to get away with changing sources.list and updating ☺13:44
nemospecing: since devuan is a thin overlay and not horribly out of date with stable was hoping it'd be pretty easy13:44
GyrosGeieryou could also rsync an existing installation over the root fs13:44
specing> GyrosGeier | will fsck.btrfs bring you back to a usable state, with whatever is salvageable in newly created files?13:44
GyrosGeierbut that has a bunch of drawbacks13:44
specingHehe, I just used fsck.ext4 to bring me back to a usable state on an old hdd13:44
specingthe result?13:45
specing23GB of files in lost+found13:45
specingeverything is now in lost+found13:45
nemospecing's plan seems to involve a lot more familiarity w/ VPS than I have - this is my first one13:45
specingnemo: it was my first one as well13:45
GyrosGeierthe other problem is that VPSs are a lot more efficient if you leave as many files untouched as you can13:45
GyrosGeierbecause they are then shared, and more likely to remain in cache13:46
specingnemo: whatever happens you can still reinstall debian through management panel13:46
nemoGyrosGeier: aaaand that impacts pricing?  'cause the price seemed fixed13:46
GyrosGeierno, that impacts performance13:46
nemoeh13:46
nemofor what I'm likely to do that probably doesn't matter13:46
GyrosGeierI have a VPS where spamassassin and postfix get swapped out regularly13:47
nemoGyrosGeier: not to mention devuan/debian there should be a fair amount in cache still, right ☺13:47
GyrosGeierperformance is abysmal13:47
GyrosGeierthat depends on their deduplication strategy13:47
GyrosGeierbut yes13:47
nemoanyway. if I did want to try /etc/apt/sources.list and crossing my fingers.  which debian would you say is closest to either ascii or beowulf?13:48
onefangDebian 9 for ASCII, 10 for Beowulf.13:50
nemokk. might as well give beowulf a try13:52
nemosince I have no immediate plans for the VPS13:53
specingGyrosGeier: it isn't SSD-based?13:55
nemospecing: I assumed he was talking about RAM13:55
nemospecing: like the 2GB they are selling me is "2GB"*13:55
specingIs this a container VPS or VM VPS?13:55
nemohttps://www.ovh.com/fr/order/vps/?p1y#/vps/build?selection=~(build~(family~'ssd~quantity~1~offer~'vps_ssd_model1_2018v1~osType~'linux~datacenter~'sbg))13:56
nemonot super sure from the details there...13:57
nemocloud might be "VM" ?13:57
specingIs it their kernel or your kernel?13:58
specingis it Xen, VMWare, KVM?13:59
GyrosGeierspecing, lol14:01
GyrosGeiera lot of the VPS boxes are decommissioned root servers14:01
GyrosGeierbecause root server customers don't want them anymore, but the hardware is still okay14:02
specingGyrosGeier: root server = DNS thingie?14:08
gour_GyrosGeier: yes, recently when i had lot of problems with manjaro and though maybe something is wrong with my HDD, but it was only due to systemd :-)14:16
gour_it finished quickly on 1/2TB drives14:17
GyrosGeierspecing, "root server" = actual hardware, rented14:30
GyrosGeierso you don't share CPUs with other customers14:30
onefangVPS host server.14:32
specingGyrosGeier: that's usually a waste of resources14:33
specingtoo bad things like digital ocean are more expensive than actually mostly renting a CPU14:33
specingmonthly*14:33
GyrosGeieryes, but for some things you really want your own machine14:34
GyrosGeiermy server runs at 100% CPU about 70% of time14:34
GyrosGeierif that were a VPS, I probably wouldn't remain a customer very long14:35
GyrosGeieralso, it runs a Windows VM14:35
GyrosGeierthat doesn't work either if you don't own the hypervisor14:35
specing> Windows VM14:51
specingbad decisions were made :P14:51
jsxofHi. I'm quite new to Devuan, so I'd like to ask two things. 1 - How does its versioning scheme work? Is the current state of Devuan ASCII equivalent to Debian Stretch? 2 - Is there a testing branch/repo?15:21
nemojsxof: onefang earlier said ascii ≅ Debian 9 and beowulf ≅ Debian 10 ...15:27
nemojsxof: beowulf being that beta you're probably asking for15:27
nemojsxof: the versioning is detailed on the wiki15:27
nemobtw. lost my sound after upgrade to beowulf ☹15:28
jsxofOh, I didn't notice that you have a wiki. Thanks for help.15:28
nemohm. pulseaudio seems to not be launching on startup after upgrade to beowulf15:31
Jorilnemo: please see http://bugs.devuan.org/db/37/378.html15:31
nemoJoril: oh. thanks.15:32
nemoJoril: yeah. that must be it. just caught me by surprise15:32
nemo"yes" or just commented out apparently15:33
specingnemo: uninstall pulseaudio15:44
specingits lennartware anyway15:44
specing:)15:44
nemospecing: heh15:53
nemospecing: I don't care enough frankly. sound dæmon seems to have limited scope15:53
nemospecing: my time sink on this work laptop is going to be figuring out how to compile that !@#$ driver15:53
MinceRit's not limited enough -- it can fuck up sound and it can force dependencies16:27
nemoMinceR: well, if there's an easy overlay of an overlay for devuan or specialised devuan server that handles that, I'm all for using it16:30
nemobut right now, too much to worry about already16:30
filipdevuan_Hey is it safe to put debian packages in e17:57
filipdevuan_in sources.list17:57
filipdevuan_i am trying to download newest version of hedge wars added deb http://ftp.de.debian.org/debian sid main17:57
filipdevuan_but not it wants to update 408MB of archives not sure if it's safe??17:57
filipdevuan_now it wants*17:57
golinuxfilipdevuan_: NO!  All relevant debian packages are served by devuan17:58
filipdevuan_there is older version of hedgewars available17:58
golinuxNever use debian repos directly.17:58
filipdevuan_ok :)17:58
filipdevuan_its good i asked then17:58
golinuxYes.  :)17:58
filipdevuan_i am trying to install newest version of hedgewars for online gaming17:59
golinuxLet me check something17:59
golinuxhttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=hedgewars&release=any17:59
filipdevuan_ok18:00
filipdevuan_the ceres one would do18:00
golinuxhedgewars is available in every release that devuan provides18:00
filipdevuan_so how can i get the ceres 1.0.0-4 one??18:00
golinuxBut remember that ceres mirrors sid18:00
filipdevuan_right18:01
filipdevuan_well i have downloaded hedge wars .deb package18:01
filipdevuan_did dpkg -i hedgewars.deb but it requiries some libs18:01
golinuxAnd you want those libs to come via devuan18:02
golinuxJust delete the debian version]18:02
filipdevuan_well i just want to have newest hedgewars version for online gaming :PP18:03
golinuxPerhaps the supporting libs are not available yet in ceres/sid18:03
filipdevuan_okay18:03
filipdevuan_so it is not possible to install newest hedgewars on ascii??18:03
golinuxYou'd probably at least need to upgrade to beowulf.18:04
filipdevuan_okay then18:04
filipdevuan_thanks for explanation :)18:04
debdogor compile it yourself, filipdevuan_18:05
filipdevuan_yeah well u mean make install?18:05
debdogyes, that and such ;)18:05
filipdevuan_yeah thats worth trying18:05
specingnemo:^18:05
filipdevuan_ill try that first18:05
filipdevuan_thanks :)18:05
debdogawful lot of dependencies, though18:05
filipdevuan_yeah worth trying though ;)18:06
* specing rolls eyes18:06
filipdevuan_ill see how much dependencies first ;P18:06
filipdevuan_how many*18:06
filipdevuan_i have it compiled before on arch based distro it wasnt so hard18:06
filipdevuan_not sure if here devuan would be harder though18:07
filipdevuan_well arch based distro with debian package stability18:07
debdogif it is satisfied version wise on the dependencies, it could be easy, yes18:09
filipdevuan_yeah i will find out18:09
filipdevuan_thank you!!!18:09
filipdevuan_take care ;)18:21
troubleduserhi19:49
troubleduserI am here for a help with Devuan Ascii19:51
troubledusersince its release I have got problems installing or even running desktop-live19:52
troubleduserit stops definitely or for few minutes with message rcu_sched: cpu stall19:54
troubledusermy motherboard is Asus Sabertooth 990 FX with AMD FX-832019:55
troubleduserand GPU is AMD Radeon R9 27019:56
troubledusertill now I've tested RAM, it's error free19:58
troubleduserlatest BIOS for the mobo is 290119:59
troubleduseri wanted to migrate from WIndows once and for all20:00
troubleduserwhen I've tried failsafe kernel panic happens20:01
fsmithredtroubleduser, does it boot to the desktop?20:06
troubledusersometimes20:06
troubledusersometimes works and sometimes hangs20:06
troubleduserwith normal bootup not failsafe20:08
troubleduserfailsafe always results kernel panic20:08
fsmithredyou could try failsafe with fewer options20:08
fsmithredpress TAB to edit the line and remove them one at a time or remove them all and add them one at a time20:09
pencilandpaperI see that pulse-audio is working again after installing updates this morning. :)  I was waiting for that to happen. :)20:09
fsmithredI found an ubuntu report with same error message and same cpu20:09
troubleduserfsmithred: ok, i will try20:10
fsmithredyou might also try a newer kernel20:10
fsmithredHere's a desktop-live with 4.19 backports kernel: https://get.refracta.org/files/experimental/unofficial_devuan_ascii_2.1_bpo_amd64-20191105_1512.iso20:11
troubleduserI've read, it could be kernel modesetting problem, but I don't now how to use this knowledge20:11
troubleduserok, desktop shows, but when I've executed dmesg it hangs :-/20:17
troubleduserfsmithred: I'll try with your *.iso20:18
fsmithredtroubleduser, either add or remove 'nomodeset' in the boot command20:18
lalala_hi all20:19
troubleduserhi20:19
lalala_how different and incompatible are bsd kernel lets say freebsd or any other bsd that is available compared to the linux kernel20:20
lalala_that can be aquired through apt via debian20:20
lalala_i mean if compatibility comes into question20:20
lalala_im doing some research :)20:20
lalala_and an answer would be like very nice if anyone having expirience in this field20:20
lalala_sorry not debian20:21
lalala_devuan20:21
lalala_since i have noticed while using linux, not devuan ofcourse there was a bsd kernel once available for debian20:22
lalala_not pointing at anyone ofcourse20:22
kiwi_8Hi everybody, gotta have some preparations for tomorrow devuan install party, but they said this time they want the install too to bootable usb stick, they found that easy with Knoppix or xubuntu. I shall take asciII yes. But I do not know about installing to usb: How would be the preferable way? Besides, is it sensible?20:22
lalala_but those should really be similar in a way20:22
Evilhamlalala_: do you mean this? https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD20:22
lalala_Evilham: sweet there still is one20:22
lalala_no im wondering20:22
lalala_there is somebody trying to tell me something would run on a bsd system and that same system can run linux supposedly which is the PS4 ofcourse20:23
fsmithreddd if=devuan-whatever.iso of=/dev/your-usb20:23
lalala_fsmithred: fsmithred: disk imaging?20:24
Evilhamlalala_: not sure if this is what you mean, but FreeBSD has a linux compat layer, so some linux binaries can be executed natively, you'd be better asking about those on #freebsd though20:24
lalala_ k20:24
lalala_tyvm20:25
troubleduserfsmithred: I've solve it20:25
fsmithredlalala_, you want to boot from usb to install devuan, right? That's how you put it on the usb stick.20:25
fsmithredtroubleduser, how?20:25
troubleduserfsmithred: when I've passed nomodeset it hangs at snd_ctxfi module20:25
troubledusertaken out the SB X-Fi Elite Pro20:26
troubledusereverything works like a charm20:26
fsmithredcool20:26
kiwi_8I would appreciate any help.20:26
fsmithreddon't ask to ask. Just ask. And then wait - it might be some time before you get an answer.20:27
troubleduserwith nomodeset messages scrolls slower and I've seen problem with this module20:27
fsmithredheh, slow boot is a feature20:28
lalala_oh oh, true true20:29
lalala_the bsd people are mean, i need to register :\20:29
Evilhamit's different community rules, doesn't mean they are mean20:31
pencilandpaperIs anyone in here running Unstable?20:31
fsmithredpencilandpaper, there are people who run ceres. Do you have a question about it?20:40
troubleduserthanks for help, bye guys20:40
fsmithredyw20:41
pencilandpaperI was just wondering if anyone else noticed that pulse is and working as of the updates from this morning?20:41
pencilandpaperWell see this is where I'm at right now fsmithred ..20:41
pencilandpaperSystem:    Host: ijotlines Kernel: 5.4.0-3-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64 Desktop: Xfce 4.14.220:41
pencilandpaper           Distro: Devuan GNU/Linux 4 (chimaera/ceres)20:41
fsmithredcareful - don't paste a lot of lines at once20:42
fsmithredor you'll get kicked by the spamhunter bot20:42
pencilandpaperOk thanks man..20:42
pencilandpaperI appreciate it.20:42
fsmithredno pulseaudio here, and it never seems to work for me in a VM20:43
fsmithredit stutters20:43
lalala_also alsa only here, cant help you :)20:44
pencilandpaperWhat are you running fsmithred , testing?20:47
fsmithredin VM, I'm running everything (ok, no more jessie)20:47
pencilandpaperI don't need help, I'm saying that it quit working for a while, but is back finally with updates applied as of this morning. :)20:47
fsmithredmain box is running beowulf20:47
fsmithredcool20:47
pencilandpaperOk..I see..20:47
pencilandpaperIndeed..20:47
fsmithredI have a ceres in VM, but I don't have pulseaudio in it20:48
pencilandpaperOk..did you start out with ceres iso or did you upgrade in to ceres?20:49
fsmithredupgraded from beowulf20:49
pencilandpaperOk cool..20:50
fsmithredactually a refracta beowulf iso20:50
pencilandpaperHow do you have your sources set up?20:50
fsmithredfor ceres? one line, but I may have left the beowulf lines active20:50
pencilandpaperMine are set ONLY to ceres (unstable) right now..and things seem to be falling in to place..20:50
fsmithredbecause not long ago I noticed a couple of packages are newer in beowulf20:51
pencilandpaperOk, comment the beowulf ones out and then do a dist-upgrade and see what happens..20:51
fsmithredI think most ceres users just use ceres sources20:51
pencilandpaperbut watch them to see what is being installed, as well as what may be being removed.20:51
pencilandpaperI think so as well, although I saw one dude in here that left some beowulf sources active..20:51
fsmithred -s, --simulate is your friend20:51
pencilandpaperFor backports of certain packages I guess.20:51
pencilandpaper:)20:52
pencilandpaperCool..20:52
fsmithredthat might have been me20:52
pencilandpaperYeah see thats what I was saying, but I was looking more at the libc6 used in certain packages..so I went just the unstable sources active.20:52
pencilandpaperOk..20:52
pencilandpaperWhat do you run as your host OS if you don't mind me asking fsmithred ?20:53
fsmithredone beowulf and two asciis20:53
pencilandpaperOk cool, thanks..20:53
fsmithredI upgraded main box to beowulf at the beginning of january (fresh install)20:54
fsmithredascii on the laptops20:54
pencilandpaperOk cool..20:54
pencilandpaperI only have this laptop..so I decided to upgrade in to beowulf, and then went to ceres..20:55
pencilandpaperI usually always do, so I just went for it. lol20:55
specingpencilandpaper: make a snapshot before upgrading20:56
pencilandpaperI should do that to be honest specing , especially right now pulse working again.20:57
pencilandpaperHi fatalerrors .21:01
kiwi_8nobody knew about "devuan install to bootable usb device"? Is tha: just following the debian installation howto? Thanks for a pointer.22:39
kiwi_8 thanks/thanks in advance22:40
gnarfacekiwi_8: yes, it shouldn't be different from the debian process for that22:46
debdogkiwi_8: I've tried that once, didn't work out easily. came to the conclusion it's easier to get a live distro which supports this. I am a noob regarding bios/uefi and booting in general, though22:48
gnarfaceoh yea you do need bios level support for it, and it's not 100% ubiquitous.  a live image may work better22:50
gnarfacebut only maybe22:50
debdogI thought this should be rather easy, just install it as if it were an ordinary hdd. but usb is special, it turned out22:51
debdogesp. if you want to use it universally, on different PCs22:52
debdogsome live images support being install to usb including a writable partition to save changes to config files and installing additional software. and of course save user files. like knoppix22:53
debdog*being installed22:53
debdogbut if there's a guid for debian on how to install such a system, it most likely works with devuan as well. kiwi_822:56
debdog*guide22:56
kiwi_8thanks, excellent help22:59

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