| Anasko | I have tried running Live Devuan from USB stick on an ancient i686 laptop with 512MB RAM, it runs, but both Firefox and Midori are not lightweight enough for 512MB of RAM (and whatever CPU is in there). | 02:05 |
|---|---|---|
| Anasko | Question: Which (maintained) Linux distribution (without systemd) can be recommended for live-testing (laptop has no hard-drive) laptop's hardware (speakers, mic, WiFi, perhaps DVD-thingie [reader, perhaps writer], memory card(s) reader...) ? | 02:07 |
| DonkeyHotei | with that little ram, you might have to install rather than run live | 02:09 |
| gnarface | Anasko: i think you can start that one in non-gui mode. might help. also, for that little RAM, i'm recommending trying a zram software device for swap. the ARM folks are eating that up right now. | 02:10 |
| DonkeyHotei | that too | 02:10 |
| gnarface | there is also a minimal live image | 02:11 |
| Anasko | Laptop has no hard drive inside, as far as I know. Does swap work with USB stick instead of hard drive? | 02:11 |
| gnarface | Anasko: yes, swap will work with anything but a USB stick is a particularly poor choice. if you're resorting to that, please reconsider my zram advice. | 02:11 |
| Anasko | Ah, so zram works with RAM-only, without requiring anything else? Like, zip-RAM? | 02:12 |
| gnarface | exactly | 02:12 |
| gnarface | it's just a kernel module that you can use to turn a small portion of your ram into a zipped block device | 02:12 |
| gnarface | (which you can then just "swapon" like any other block device) | 02:12 |
| DonkeyHotei | be aware that zram breaks suspend to disk | 02:13 |
| gnarface | oh, yea, but be aware that using USB for swap will break the disk... | 02:13 |
| DonkeyHotei | that too | 02:13 |
| gnarface | (years of mileage in minutes; swap is very bad for flash based storage hardware) | 02:13 |
| onefang | Um, using RAM that is pretending to be a disk, for swap which is disk pretending to be RAM? | 02:14 |
| gnarface | onefang: i know. it violates every sense of reasonable expectations about performance throughput until you actually test it with a computer made after the 90's. | 02:14 |
| gnarface | this one snuck up on me too | 02:15 |
| gnarface | but apparently Android has been doing it on the downlow for years already | 02:16 |
| onefang | Skip a step, just compress the RAM you would be sending to swap. | 02:16 |
| gnarface | that would make more sense i just don't know off the top of my head how. the zram thing is pretty new to me as-is. | 02:16 |
| onefang | People using RAM disks for swap is a very old idea. | 02:16 |
| gnarface | i haven't tested it myself but it's very popular amongst the ARM hackers for fixing things like "2GB isn't enough for Firefox" and "my build crashed because i don't have swap" | 02:17 |
| onefang | I thought it was a silly idea back then to. lol | 02:17 |
| * Anasko is looking into Puppy Linux | 02:17 | |
| gnarface | it's absolutely a silly idea. that's the most dangerous thing about it, because it actually works too. | 02:17 |
| Anasko | Until it doesn't work anymore? | 02:18 |
| gnarface | yea but from what i've heard that is somewhere approaching 12GB | 02:19 |
| gnarface | it's like being able to download free ram | 02:19 |
| gnarface | in a logical sense, you'd expect some ram contents to already be densely-packed binary of some sort or another - either compressed or incompressible - but in practice most the stuff you run out of ram doing in typical desktop use cases (whatever firefox does with the first 1.5GB of RAM at launch time for example) is not | 02:22 |
| * Anasko grimaces and thinks that web-browser should be separated into several things: wget, HTML reader/editor, curl and whatever else. And tabs should be delegated to window manager, not individual programs. | 02:24 | |
| gnarface | hehe, yes, i too would be greatly entertained to see most the modern Linux userspace replaced with a handful of clever bash scripts calling console/ncurses programs in long piped chains. | 02:25 |
| gnarface | enlightenment froze after after "long piped chains" :/ | 02:42 |
| gnarface | if anyone replied, i missed it | 02:42 |
| gnarface | if it looked like i said anything after that, it was an imposter | 02:42 |
| Jjp137 | there wasn't anything after that | 02:42 |
| gnarface | thanks | 02:43 |
| plasma41 | Anasko: If Firefox and Midori are too memory intensive, give Dillo a try. | 02:52 |
| plasma41 | I <3 Dillo | 02:53 |
| BlackMug | hello there | 18:25 |
| BlackMug | old issue not fixed in devuan | 18:25 |
| BlackMug | when configuring manually the IP connection | 18:26 |
| BlackMug | while installing the OS | 18:26 |
| BlackMug | whatever i have posted during the installation process it wont show these configurations in wicd | 18:26 |
| BlackMug | devuan 3.0 | 18:27 |
| BlackMug | so it will just making me passing the installation until the end , but it wont configure wicd to what i have wrote from IP,Gateway... | 18:28 |
| BlackMug | side question: why using wicd instead of network-manager ? | 18:29 |
| BlackMug | adding https to the repos will give error certificate is not trusted | 18:39 |
| BlackMug | for some reason apt-transport-tor cant be located | 18:42 |
| BlackMug | though its available in debian buster | 18:42 |
| onefang | Are you using HTTPS with deb.devuan.org? That's a DNS round robin, and so wont work, giving the error you described. | 18:42 |
| onefang | https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/mirror_list.txt tells you which mirrors can be used via HTTPS. | 18:43 |
| BlackMug | i see, well better it can be both for the default repo | 18:43 |
| BlackMug | e.g https://deb.debian.org/debian can be http and https | 18:45 |
| onefang | The problem there is then we will need to hand the certificate for deb.devuan.org to all of the mirror admins. | 18:46 |
| onefang | That's a big security nightmare, better off just picking a HTTPS mirror from the list if you want to use HTTPS. | 18:47 |
| BlackMug | i see , bad situation... | 18:53 |
| BlackMug | repo should be beowulf/updates on default or at least someone can change that instead of beowulf-updates | 18:55 |
| BlackMug | both may sound the same but they are not more https://wiki.debian.org/StableProposedUpdates | 18:56 |
| BlackMug | currently beowulf/update not available | 18:58 |
| golinux | BlackMug: https://beta.devuan.org/os/packages | 18:59 |
| BlackMug | currently some whats documented there is unreal | 19:00 |
| onefang | It's beowulf-updates on all the mirrors, same as all the other releases. Why do you want to use beowulf/update when that's simply not how it's done? | 19:00 |
| BlackMug | isnt devaun taking the packages from debian without any further changes or so? if so then /update is more stable than -update | 19:01 |
| onefang | How is it more "stable"? | 19:02 |
| BlackMug | why you didnt open the link i have posted? | 19:03 |
| BlackMug | tor has no installation candidate , which is weird | 19:04 |
| BlackMug | tor available in buster. i dunno where devaun reading the packages availability from | 19:04 |
| onefang | Debian uses - the same way we do. That link says stable-proposed-updates, not stable-proposed/updates. | 19:05 |
| BlackMug | i know debian by default uses -updates , what im suggesting is to use /updates for better stability/security | 19:06 |
| BlackMug | but at least give you both options | 19:06 |
| BlackMug | in devuan case you dont have /updates | 19:06 |
| onefang | You still haven't said why it's better stability/security. | 19:07 |
| BlackMug | > As mentioned above, packages in stable-proposed-updates aren't yet officially part of Debian Stable and one should not assume they have the same quality and stability (yet!). Those new versions of the packages needs to be reviewed (by the stable release manager) and tested (by some users) before entering stable. | 19:07 |
| onefang | You are very confused. | 19:07 |
| onefang | That's a quote from your link, and it STILL does not mention /updates. | 19:08 |
| onefang | The "should not assume they have the same quality and stability" is due to the word "proposed" in "stable-proposed-updates". | 19:09 |
| onefang | Things get proposed, then tested, then moved to stable-updates when they do have the same quality and stability. Nothing to do with using - or / in the URL. | 19:10 |
| onefang | That link is talking about the proposed packages, not the spelling of the URL. | 19:11 |
| BlackMug | read here https://wiki.debian.org/StableUpdates | 19:11 |
| BlackMug | > Some packages from proposed-updates may also be made available via the stable-updates mechanism. This path will be used for updates which many users may wish to install on their systems before the next point release is made, such as updates to virus scanners and timezone data. All packages from stable-updates will be included in point releases. | 19:12 |
| onefang | Once again that link uses buster-updates, not buster/updates. You are not listening to me, nor understanding the links you post. | 19:13 |
| onefang | So end of discussion, I have better things to do. | 19:13 |
| BlackMug | its like you said what i was just saying | 19:15 |
| BlackMug | buster-updates is devuan-updates yes or no? | 19:16 |
| BlackMug | for now this is not big issue, beowulf wicd before installation and missing packages is bigger problem | 19:17 |
| BlackMug | when i go to Application Menu -> System Settings -> There is Nvidia X Server Settings? | 19:21 |
| BlackMug | im using Desktop iso version | 19:22 |
| BlackMug | other than this for surface playing around cant find issues | 19:24 |
| fsmithred | buster-updates (if that exists) would be the same as beowulf-updates | 19:31 |
| fsmithred | if you want proposed-updates, then add beowulf-proposed-updates | 19:31 |
| fsmithred | although I think that one just exists in /devuan not /merged | 19:31 |
| fsmithred | no, it's in merged | 19:31 |
| BlackMug | ok what about buster/updates, does devuan has one? or only -updates? | 20:22 |
| BlackMug | devuan/updates repo giving me error | 20:23 |
| golinux | BlackMug: https://beta.devuan.org/os/packages | 20:25 |
| BlackMug | golinux i check that link before when you posted | 20:26 |
| BlackMug | where do you see deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged beowulf/updates | 20:27 |
| BlackMug | only beowulf-updates available | 20:28 |
| plasma41 | BlackMug: beowulf-updates in Devuan is equivalent to buster/updates in Debian. Devuan just uses hyphens instead of slashes. | 20:29 |
| BlackMug | ah ok thank you for the clarification | 20:31 |
| BlackMug | sorry but it is confusing , thought what is in debian the same for devuan | 20:32 |
| BlackMug | and if im not mistaken it should be the same to avoid confusion | 20:33 |
| golinux | BlackMug: This is how Devuan accesses Debian repos https://git.devuan.org/evilham/amprolla3 | 20:36 |
| BlackMug | ah nice , never heard about it | 20:39 |
| BlackMug | seems it has issues in beowulf which need to be fixed like reported above | 20:40 |
| BlackMug | summary: | 20:42 |
| BlackMug | - wicd doenst preconfigure itself to what he user input in the installation process IP,Gateway..etc. once beowulf booted wicd will be empty | 20:43 |
| BlackMug | - Packages available in Debian buster but somehow cant be installed like for e.g Tor or apt-transport-tor | 20:44 |
| BlackMug | - you can see nvidia shortcut in the system but it wont, and nvidia never been a default package anyway. | 20:46 |
| yeti | what am I doing wrong? my tor on buster is the same version as on beowulf | 20:47 |
| BlackMug | it wont run* | 20:47 |
| BlackMug | i cant install even tor , fresh installation of devuan beowulf 3.0 desktop version | 20:48 |
| BlackMug | maybe if you were on previous version and upgraded to 3.0 then Tor will be presented there | 20:48 |
| yeti | my beowulf was debian9 mutated to devuan2, upgraded to devuan3 | 20:48 |
| yeti | maybe not sooo comparable like a fresh install | 20:48 |
| BlackMug | yeah this cant produce the scenario im facing | 20:49 |
| yeti | ok, silent again | 20:49 |
| yeti | :-D | 20:49 |
| BlackMug | lol | 20:49 |
| plasma41 | I'll be sure to add apt-transport-tor to my list of things to test before the stable release | 20:50 |
| fsmithred | BlackMug, why can't you install apt-transport-tor? | 20:51 |
| plasma41 | I was not aware of the nvidia shortcut. I'll look into that as well. | 20:51 |
| BlackMug | fsmithred Tor has no installation candidate thats what its showing | 20:52 |
| fsmithred | tor or apt-transport-tor? | 20:52 |
| fsmithred | nm, I just installed both of them | 20:52 |
| yeti | both are ok here too (ARM) | 20:52 |
| BlackMug | both cant | 20:52 |
| plasma41 | BlackMug: So I can reproduce your results, What ISO did you use? | 20:53 |
| BlackMug | https://borta.rrq.id.au/ | 20:53 |
| fsmithred | so, something must be wrong with your sources.list | 20:53 |
| BlackMug | 2020-03-09-devuan_beowulf_3.0.0_amd64_desktop.iso | 20:53 |
| plasma41 | thanks, I'll look into that. | 20:53 |
| BlackMug | fsmithred nothing wrong with it because i didnt change to something doesnt work , same http version | 20:54 |
| BlackMug | worked with upgrades stuff and installing some stuff as well | 20:54 |
| BlackMug | but not all things can be called which is in my test was Tor and apt-transport-tor | 20:54 |
| fsmithred | nc termin.com 9999 < /etc/apt/sources.list | 20:54 |
| fsmithred | please ^^^ | 20:54 |
| fsmithred | if you can't paste the link, just give me the last part | 20:55 |
| BlackMug | connection timed out | 20:57 |
| plasma41 | fsmithred: nc? what package is that command in? I don't see it in a apt-file search. | 20:57 |
| fsmithred | probably net-tools | 20:58 |
| plasma41 | s/a/an/ | 20:58 |
| fsmithred | netcat-traditional | 21:00 |
| plasma41 | yes, just found it | 21:00 |
| BlackMug | fsmithred are using the same image as im using? | 21:01 |
| fsmithred | no, I think you're the first one to test that iso | 21:01 |
| fsmithred | I'm using a system I installed in early January | 21:02 |
| fsmithred | https://devuan.org/get-devuan | 21:03 |
| BlackMug | ah i see | 21:03 |
| fsmithred | scroll down to 'Devuan 2.1 ASCII | 21:03 |
| fsmithred | and make sure your sources.list looks like that except for beowulf instead of ascii | 21:03 |
| BlackMug | for reprehensibility of errors better to have same scenario | 21:03 |
| BlackMug | yes my sources are correct | 21:04 |
| BlackMug | i told you i can upgrade some packages , installed new one but just not all of them | 21:04 |
| fsmithred | how many times did you try over how long a time period? | 21:04 |
| fsmithred | I'm thinking maybe a network glitch (something timed out, didn't it?) | 21:05 |
| BlackMug | ah no tried many times | 21:05 |
| BlackMug | e.g i can install chromium | 21:05 |
| fsmithred | regular or expert install? | 21:05 |
| BlackMug | sudo apt install chromium | 21:06 |
| fsmithred | I mean the initial installation | 21:06 |
| fsmithred | I haven't even downloaded that iso yet | 21:06 |
| fsmithred | I did test all the previous builds | 21:06 |
| BlackMug | if you have fast internet just regular full distro size 3. something if im not mistaken | 21:07 |
| BlackMug | 3.x GB* | 21:07 |
| fsmithred | it's a 4G file | 21:07 |
| fsmithred | just under 4G so it will fit on a 4G usb stick | 21:08 |
| BlackMug | i use VMs easier faster for testing stuff | 21:08 |
| fsmithred | yeah, I'm looking for a recent one now | 21:08 |
| BlackMug | if you have high resources pc/laptop Qubes is great OS for testing stuff | 21:09 |
| BlackMug | but ofcourse you can that as well with vbox/qemu/kvm as well | 21:10 |
| fsmithred | I'm booting something now. I think it might be a default beowulf install. | 21:12 |
| fsmithred | nope. I killed that one. | 21:13 |
| BlackMug | just in case someone might ask which interface/DE i ticked when installed devuan 3.0 | 21:14 |
| BlackMug | its xfce | 21:15 |
| fsmithred | ok | 21:15 |
| fsmithred | check back with me tomorrow. I guess I'll do an install between now and then | 21:15 |
| BlackMug | sure np | 21:15 |
| plasma41 | I always test on bare metal. If it works there then it will work on any properly implemented VM. | 21:15 |
| fsmithred | takes me at least a couple hours, even with fast internet | 21:16 |
| fsmithred | I'll try to fix my usb now. I think it just needs the bootloader repaired. | 21:16 |
| BlackMug | plasma41 vice versa is consume less time and less effort specially if damaged your OS you cant have snapshots or cloning the OS for different testing. Thats why VMs preferred | 21:17 |
| BlackMug | fsmithred i have like 30mb per sec, so couple of seconds to minutes. | 21:18 |
| BlackMug | (download speed) | 21:18 |
| fsmithred | 100Mb/s here | 21:18 |
| fsmithred | in VM install goes very slow | 21:18 |
| plasma41 | Sure I can clone the OS. That's what a second hard disk and dd is for. | 21:18 |
| fsmithred | faster on hardware except when I installed to this usb2 stick. | 21:19 |
| BlackMug | fsmithred not sure, im using 10GB SSD with 1GB ram ddr3 with 2 core CPU for Devuan 3.0 its blazing fast inside Qubes VM | 21:21 |
| BlackMug | plasma41 very time consuming when moving things physically like hardware 1 , 2 ,3 comparing to just 2 clicks when creating VM and booting the downloaded iso. But yeah each one has his own preferred way of doing things | 21:23 |
| BlackMug | anyway i think i have said enough today , thanks for the support guys. | 21:25 |
| fsmithred | thanks for the report | 21:27 |
| plasma41 | Testing in a VM requires the assumption that every single hardware quirk that may cause issue on an actual machines is fully implemented. I can not make that assumption. | 21:27 |
| fsmithred | I'm downloading that iso now | 21:27 |
| plasma41 | s/issue on an actual machines/issues on actual machines/ | 21:28 |
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