freenode/#devuan/ Thursday, 2020-04-09

* jl4 is impressed by Beowulf ... how it does in his pretty old T420 . This is a wonderful piece of community software !14:31
Pr0metheusLately I am very concerned about privacy and how all the big players are starting to control from kernel to the browser we use. It seems that Linux is adopting Microsoft style, big company coders ignore user comments, gnome merging with kde. Is anyone else having these dislikes looking for alternatives? Like desktop/wm, browser, standard apps?18:33
MinceRindeed18:34
MinceRi'm trying OpenBSD, but i'm not too keen on sndio18:34
MinceRi'm planning to try DragonflyBSD once i can get another SSD without getting infected18:34
Pr0metheusI tried openbsd and unfortunately does not support nvidia and as I am not planning to buy anything new I tried FreeBSD18:35
MinceRFreeBSD has a CoC and seems to be controlled by microsoft and apple18:35
Pr0metheusgreat!18:36
Pr0metheusthere is no way out:P18:36
MinceRNetBSD seems to be free of malign influence, along with OpenBSD and DragonflyBSD18:36
Pr0metheusand ok if you manage to avoid the linux kernel then what about desktop/wm, browser?18:36
MinceRfvwm18:37
MinceRall browsers suck so i'll have to write my own18:37
Pr0metheusI saw fvwm on openbsd, you need 6 months to setup it:P18:38
MinceRi think i wrote my config in less than 6 months :>18:38
MinceRif you want a wm that doesn't need much setting up, i can recommend icewm18:39
MinceRin any case, #debianfork would be a better place for this discussion :>18:39
Pr0metheusyeah sure, I have debian in all my computers but although the guys are doing a great job to avoid systemd most software start to have dependencies, it is like a coronavirus18:40
Pr0metheusi mean devuan:P18:40
stovepipeive been writing my fvwm config for 25 years!18:43
MinceRand it still isn't ready yet? :>18:45
stovepipealmost perfect18:46
Pr0metheusis i3 any better?18:46
stovepipesaw this yesterday https://boards.4channel.org/g/thread/7536462618:49
stovepipehonestly i stopped paying attention to anything else over a decade ago18:50
stovepipeits all going in the wrong direction for me18:50
stovepipeand whats this about qt being dead18:52
Pr0metheusno idea, isn't QT actively developed? besides they made a deal to keep it free18:56
stovepipeas far as i can tell it hasnt slowed down19:01
stovepipeprobably FUD, 4chan afterall19:01
stovepipei have been noticing that CSD crap though19:02
Pr0metheuswhat's FUD, CSD?19:05
stovepipefear uncertainty and doubt :)19:05
stovepipeand client side decorations19:05
Pr0metheuswhat's so bad about them? it will get resource hungry?19:05
stovepipefor example, something like evince in fvwm will have giant goofy built-in titlebar/buttons, with an fvwm border around the window19:06
stovepipeoverriding the wm behavior and forcing GTK garbage in your face19:06
stovepipeunnecessarily crappy19:06
Pr0metheuswell there seems nothing else to use, gtk or qt19:07
stovepipethe wm has its own behavior19:07
stovepipeit is inelegant and unnecessary19:08
Pr0metheusyou can have the wm but all apps with a gui use gtk or qt19:08
stovepipelike everything else thats been going on19:08
stovepipewe're talking about window decorations, title bar, buttons19:08
stovepipeits not going to end well19:09
stovepipebut its not news that everyone has lost the plot19:10
stovepipetahts why devuan exists19:10
Pr0metheusI am not sure devuan can do anything about it19:13
stovepipewell it did by ditching systemd19:13
stovepipewhich is just another symptom of the actual problem19:13
stovepipebut as far as gnome garbage infecting everything, probably not19:14
stovepipeusing xfce for the default is a good effort, but now that is tainted as well19:14
jl4BTW, as as Beowulf newbie ... may i suggest that default Desktop to be Cinammon...? Why? ... because in my experience (e.g. with Xfce) Wicd seems to be unresponsive or there are hiccups... leading to a bad user experience. In my case had to completely re-install Devuan, selecting Cinammon in the second iteration, thus avoiding Wicd19:15
masonThis stuff is only problematic if you accept someone's formal desktop environment. Tradition environments where you run a window manager and a set of applications you like are as healthy and vibrant as ever.19:15
stovepipemason: that is not correct, as was described above19:15
stovepipeCSD invades whether you want it or not19:15
masonUm. I disagree but I feel no need to argue it beyond stating this.19:16
Pr0metheusjl4 and you are now using network manager?19:16
stovepipeyou can choose not to argue, but your statement is incorrect19:16
MinceR09 184639 < Pr0metheus> is i3 any better?19:16
MinceRnot really19:17
stovepipeclient side decorations are in the client window, and no ignores any window manager decorations19:17
stovepipe*now19:17
MinceRfor example, if i press <Super>+d, <Esc>, then nothing will be focused19:17
MinceRand i have to switch back and forth to get a window to have focus19:17
MinceRif i kill x2x, it loses focus in the same way19:17
Pr0metheusMinceR first time I hear you can have nothing in focus:P19:18
MinceR:>19:18
MinceRit's more common on Backdoors19:18
jl4Pr0metheus ... yes i think so, it's what is shipped by Beowulf  'Cinammon'.19:19
Pr0metheusjl4 I am then on the opposite side, had so many problems with network manager that wicd is much better for me19:21
masonI used to dislike Network Manager but I've learned how to wrangle the sporadic pain points I hit. Now I no longer dislike it so much, and just think it's a bit overengineered for what it does. I much prefer ifupdown.19:25
stovepipeactually yesterday i did witness what jl4 described for the first time19:27
stovepipeunable to connect for some mysterious reason19:28
masonWas the interface associated?19:28
stovepipejl4: how long have you been using cinnamon now19:28
fsmithredstovepipe, you can install gtk3-nocsd19:29
stovepipeit took a long time for that to happen to me with xfce19:29
stovepipefsmithred: that will eventually go away19:29
fsmithredso will gtk319:29
stovepipeheh19:29
stovepipeand CSD will be all you get in gtk419:29
fsmithredlxqt is looking better and better19:30
stovepipeheh yeah19:30
masonstovepipe: When you saw the weird wifi behaviour, were you associated with the access point, or were you not able to get status from your nic?19:31
masonOr was it explicitly saying it wasn't associated?19:31
stovepipejust refused to connect19:31
masonThat doesn't really narrow it down, but I guess you'd have had to have looked to get more detail.19:32
stovepipei could see all the wifi networks, seemed normal enough, but just wouldnt connect19:32
stovepiperebooted and it went as normal19:33
stovepipeso i didnt really look at it19:33
masonNext time it happens, maybe capture dmesg output, iw wlan0 info, or whatever you've got to look at the NIC's status. Maybe it's something that can be addressed.19:34
stovepipeprobably wont happen to me again, its just a laptop in my mobile toolkit19:35
stovepipewhich will be beowulf soon19:36
stovepipemobile toolkit not being used much lately...19:37
stovepipeotherwise i'm all freebsd with one devuan server (jessie)19:38
stovepipeoh, is that why i dont see gtk3-nocsd heh19:41
stovepipeahh yes, there it is on ascii19:41
fsmithredstovepipe, there's also (in beowulf) gtk3-nooverlayscrollbar to keep your scrollbars from disappearing.19:44
fsmithredin ascii, that's built into the darkpurpy theme19:44
stovepipecool thanks19:50
stovepipei am intending to use fvwm again on that laptop when beowulf comes around19:52
jl4stovepipe ... i'm using Cinam. for a month... happy user20:00
Pr0metheusis there an alternative to cups?20:23
WalexPr0metheus: yes, various implementations of LPD20:28
Pr0metheusWalex: any good suggestion?20:28
WalexPr0metheus: for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LPRng20:29
WalexNote that AFAIK CUPS is the only print spooler with a built in web interface20:30
Pr0metheusWalex: can these be used with inkjet printers also?20:37
WalexPr0metheus: a spooler just pushed around file contents, and optionally runs backends. IIRC LPRng can use the same backends as CUPS (the FOOMATIC system)21:03
ShorTiewhat kernel is ceres ??21:26
fsmithredShorTie, same as sid21:53
fsmithredlooks like 5.521:53
ShorTieok, Thankz21:53

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